Crap! Second.

yadayadayada

Thanks for the quick pick up on this item, Lat.

I don't even work for Cravath, but this probably means I will be laid off.

these pretzels are making me sixthy

Probably the first accurate revenue and profit listing. Who audits these rounded up submissions?

This post = CSM's new Vault ranking.

8 --> If they're lucky....

p.s. no sirens? Hell, Rick Santelli got sirens today.

QUINN WILL NOW BE #2 WITH WACHTELL IN ITS SIGHTS

Oh, brother. First Latham, and now Cravath.

Clients could not care less as to how much their lawyers are making. Cravath partners are still Cravath partners.

i love you david lat.

I'm sure all the Cravath clients are lining up at Quinn's door right this moment.

12: Consider this:

PPP---> prestige ---> recruiting ---> quality of lawyers ----> quality of legal services provided ----> clients

If Cravath's profits and appeal in recruiting go down, the quality of its attorneys will go down, and clients will go elsewhere.

4 - Lat doesn't sleep. After midnight, he's going to slip into his "Jen Everett" persona, and start emailing Cravath partners (like the one who has a weakness for prostitutes).

Did anyone else notice that Lat's emails with Bob Robbins were around 1 a.m. last night? That's dedication.

I'm glad I picked Latham!

Actually PPP --> retaining partners who bring in revenues.

The Cravath brand has a long way to fall before it sinks below SulCrom, let alone the upstart Quinn.

15, are you in NYC? People haven't even heard about Quinn.

WLRK's ppp will drop in a similar fashion. They are even less diversified than CSM. CSM at least has a relatively large litigation group. WLRK is even more dependent on lucrative corporate practice. I predict their PPP will drop by more than 20% ($1m)

"Cravath partners are still Cravath partners."

Hubris. Cravath could someday end up like the dearly departed Thacher Proffitt: old and venerable, but utterly irrelevant.

19, even if WLRK's PPP drops by a million, they will still be at $3.9 million - enough to beat Quinn by over half a mil.

For last year's rankings, see here (second and third block quotes, in blue):

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2008/04/am_law_100_rankings.php

17 - You're joking, right? How do you like that frozen salary of yours?

It's ridiculous to compare Cravath to Quinn Emanuel. QE is nothing but a sweat shop where PPP is high only because of the high leverage.

Breaking News Alert: Las Vegas-area restaurants report shortage of fried foods, heavy dairy products, and pancakes.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

18 has a point. On the Vault 100, Cravath and S&C are separated by a full half-point (0.5) - on a ten-point scale.

Look at the third column, "Prestige Score":

http://www.vault.com/nr/lawrankings.jsp?law2009=2&ch_id=242&top100=1

SullCrom has a lot of ground to make up.

Damn some subtle Cravath trolling from the former WLRK wonder boy himself.

Brutal Lat.... just brutal.

I would point out that I still sell my first born and burn my Hofstra law degree and my NYU Tax LLM to work at Cravath.

Signed,

Jealous Skaddenite

22, I'm sure that he'll like it quite a bit at the end of 2009 when LW has fewer problems persuading "rainmakers" to stay b/c of their aggressive cost-cutting.

ditto 17. i was feeling down about choosing LW over higher ranked firms - at least i won't have to feel bad w/ respect to CSM any longer.

28, you aren't suggesting that you picked Latham NY over CSM, are you? If you are, I'm ROFL.

20 - That was way harsh, Tai.

28- no, not NY, so you can stop ROFLing

only a matter of time before quinn overtakes wachtell. mark my words.

LULZ

18/25: Heh.

What's with the Quinn boosters?

*****************************************

CRAVATH MAY IMPLODE SOON

*****************************************

The Quinn trolling on this blog is beyond belief. I guess it's not altogether surprising given that Quinn is home to the douchest attorneys on the planet.

Also, does anyone know why law firms report these figures to the general public and how can we be sure that these figures are in fact accurate?

Thus begins the blood bath among the no-business partner ranks. Firms must choose between retaining rainmakers and surviving by forcing out the parasites who hold down the pay of business generators. The choice is obvious; it'll be hard, but it'll have to be done.

PS No bonuses in '09 but if you're still being paid 4x the average American worker and you're only 25 consider, for once in your life, being grateful.

Cravath's reputation is so huge that I would have to think it would take more than one down year on PPP to fall out of the very top echelon.

Quinn?! Jesus, you must be kidding.

Remember, Cravath has that 160-person Summer '08 batch of first years getting ready to join up in about 7 months.

160 new first years! Where's Count von Count when you need him?

And the PPP declined 20% BEFORE they showed up!

Signed,
A 2L who turned down Cravath for DPW and is damn glad they did

So, can I get the rest of my bonus now?

39, you made the wrong decision. Now all you can do is move on.

This is significant news. That's a profit drop of almost 25 percent - a quarter reduction.

The Cravathites may be brilliant lawyers, but it sounds like they are not great businesspeople.

Tip of the hat to CSM for taking a 24% PPP drop and not panicking like some other biglaw firms by running to the chopping block. Granted, they started with the half-skad, but no news of stealth layoffs, no salary freeze, no bonus take-backs. Partners will have to forego that second bi-plane this year, but they've kept their firm safe for the long run, ensuring that their cravath walks will be performed by the mentally agile. I'm not at CSM - not in NYC - but getting a glimpse of how other firms have been treating their hired help lately, I wish I was.

good post- maybe you could do some postings on the firmst that had GREAT 2008 years (mainly because they are not run by maniacs who hire 200 summers and first years)?

you people are idiots. 11 and 32 are onto it. the news here is that quinn's revolutionary business model destroys everyone else.

45 = 11 and 32. run along now.

I wonder if the Simpson troll will come here and leave a comment about his made up stories of layoffs at Simpson, even if this has nothing to do with CravaTTTh.

9:54: There are no layoffs at Simpson. It's just one troll who doesn't know anything about what is actually going on, yet pretend he does.

How are these partners going to get by on only $2.5 million?? Time for some layoffs.

The Simpson stealth layoff rumors have been around for a while:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2008/08/nationwide_layoff_simpson_thacher.php

If Simpson were going gangbusters, why are they resorting to THIS?

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/simpson_thacher_sabbatical_program.php

Remind me again why I am supposed to feel sorry for the partners whose profit fell to a mere $2.5 million. How many jobs would it have saved to cut those profits in half for a year? You can go back to make several million a year when the economy picks up.

Kudos - I echo 43.

Are layoffs coming at Latham? Friend there says he heard something

53 - The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: layoffs were general all over biglaw. They were happening on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, happening stealthily in Manhattan and, farther westward, stealthily happening near the dark mutinous Pacific waves. . . . His soul swooned slowly as he heard of layoff stealthily happening throughout the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.

53 - Re: Latham, read this post (and the 700+ comments):

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/stealth_layoff_open_thread_lat.php

I went to a top ten law school and I do not know of a single high quality person who went to Quinn. I think that people go there if they get dinged by Irell & Manella, Gibson, Latham, Skadden, or Kirkland in LA.

56, let me guess, you went to Irell?

55- I've already known of the stealth layoffs posted here.

My friend told me he's heard rumors of actual public layoffs coming?

Well, they still outperformed the S&P 500.

yeah right 56. i'm sure everyone at a top school would sooooooo much rather go to those firms than one with PPP of $3.3M. lol.

39 hit the nail on the head.

160 summer associates? What were they thinking?

I thought Cravath was selective? That must be four to five times the size of Wachtell's incoming class.

Cosign 37 - I've always wondered that too. Anyone?

60, once you graduate, you will definitely be partner at QE before you know it. And you will marry the sugar-plum fairy!

51: Cravath did not layoff any attorneys. No reason to be cynical.

@59: Best post of the night/week.

And seriously guys and gals, it seems that just before anything fails, whether it be a company or an industry, everyone is claiming the failed thing will flourish forever. "NY to 190!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" What happened just months after that mantra? The recession.
"Law firm revenue will rise to $20 million by 2025 (I forgot the actual numbers, but read the article literally days before all of the failure)." Um yeah, that's going to happen.
"Citi/BofA/Ford/GM will never fail--they are cornerstones of American capitalism." Yeah, they're all basically penny stocks now and only exist because of government bailouts. Go capitalism ...

Basically, the simple fact that a company/law firm has done well in the past does not mean it will continue, bubbles destroy even the greatest of the titans. Be contrarian MptjerF-ers, you'll do a whole lot better than following the crowds.

did 26 out himself, or did someone flame away?

http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?contentID=45&bioID=5125

No wonder Chesler has been trying to go off the billable hour. They don't have enough work to pay for their hookers and coke.

64 - I don't know if I would call them "layoffs," but Cravath did get rid of some "senior attorneys" a few weeks ago.

They were too senior to be partnership-track, and they knew they weren't making partner, so maybe the writing was on the wall for them. But still, it probably sucked for them to lose their jobs.

jesus fucking christ I have been reading this goddam site every day for two months and I still have no idea wtf TTT stands for. Could someone please reveal the secret handshake? Lat or Marin, since this pathetic plea will inevitably inspire 40,000 smart ass mocking wrong answers (is the joke that nobody actually knows what it means anymore?), maybe you could create a little "ATL glossary" link for the ATL virgins? because I swear to god I'm going to have to start my own lame ass secret club somewhere else if you don't.

Quinn, Emanuel, UrqhuarTTT, Olivar and Hedges...

Aaaaaahhhh thank you very much.

TTT= third tier toilet. Jesus H Chrimeney.

46% of the AmLaw 100 have the letter "t" in their name.

Quinn won't be second. Look for Irell to be number 2 this year, if not number 1. Yes Irell. A $325M contingency award allocated to 80 or 90 partners makes for mighty high PPP. Sure it's a one time thing, but Quinn will be denied number 2 for at least another year.

"TTT" = "third tier toilet"

See http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ttt

TO BE CLEAR I WAS JOKING ABOUT THE SKADDEN/HOFSTRA NYU THING.

Signed,

Feeling guilty Cravath fourth year.

look at all the jokers over at larry h. parker trying to hate on cravath

16, Lat doesn't need to sleep. They weaned him off that habit during his years at Wachtell.

It all makes sense now. After Skadden announced bonuses, Cravath panicked because they already were taking a huge PPP hit. So they fucked us over on bonuses. Now obviously people are less upset about bonuses now that layoffs are the real threat, but i'm still voting CSM 99.

Ouch. Renewing a ten-year lease on an entire building months before the NY real estate market collapsed? Putting together a summer class that was 40% of the size of the entire firm, and then another one not much smaller, right before all their work dried up?

Damn. Cravath has the worst timing in the world. Find out what mutual funds their partners are investing in and short them.

no wonder 1Ls are going crazy http://www.blackbooklegal.com

LATTTHAM IS A RANCID TOILET.

Cravath's reputation is indestructible. If James Coliton, David Schwartz, and now prostitutes can't tarnish it, nothing can.

Background: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/cravath_partner_hires_prostitutes.php

Fantastic thread title, Lat. You guys are on fire this week.

Cravath is laying off people, just not in the public fashion...

Quinn is TTT. Granted, lawyers tend to be weird and uncool, but I interviewed at Quinn and concluded Quinn lawyers were the weirdest people I had ever met. This motivated me to go to a "real" V10 firm, and I am still happy with my decision. Plus, Quinn may have relatively high PPP in a downturn, but it won't last once corporate work picks up.

Okay everybody...CALM DOWN. The headline figure of 24% is misleading (in my opinion). Revenues went down by 13%, total costs actually decreased and yet PPP went down by 24%? There is either something funky going on in the accounting there OR Cravath had more partners in 2008 than in 2007. If the reason for the 24% is the second reason, then there's not too much to be concerned about (long-term, at least).

it can't feel good to spend 20% of your revenue on your NY office lease alone!!

I'm from Sherman Oaks and I never heard of Cravath. I heard Quinn is the shit though. You get to wear shorts to work.

Maybe Mayor McBloomburger can get $45 million to retrain laid off lawyers like he did for ibankers. I mean if ibankers can be trained to "join the growing ranks of home health care providers" why not lawyers? From lattes and towncar service to changing grannies' diapers in just 18 months! What a life!

My firm has had announced layoffs, a salary freeze and our Partners make $1mm less than $2.5mm (in what was reported as a flat 2008 for us). If Cravath is TTT and about to implode, can I get me some?

Homeslice at 86: Have you seen the balance sheet? Neither have I. But, I'm pretty well versed in accounting. I have read that expenses went down, but I doubt that's necessarily true. Maybe something like non-fixed costs have gone down, but the fixed cost of their lease could be killing them (which, I will almost guarantee will be renegotiated in the next few months). Also, I don't think Cravath elevates that many partners per year (thank you in advance to the guy who posts the number of elevated partners this year).

In other news, I've been drinking and don't want to go into the other reasons why their expenses this year could be flat but why their profits could be down. Depreciation, amortization, tax deductions, deferred costs and expenses ... Whatever, bad things happened.

FIRST to still wish that I had gotten an offer from Cravath

Haha, funny thing is, 92, I never applied to Cravath so I never gave myself the option, but I agree. I'd like to work there--good people and exciting work.

Comment removed by moderator.

PPP ---> prestige??? Please. An associate who works for a firm like Quinn that makes a 10% higher PPP and responds by cutting associate bonuses by more than 50% is not prestigious. He or she is a tool. It will be interesting to see how "prestigious" Irell is.

all of this is funny, until cravath associates lateral to our firms and take our jobs.

Comment removed by moderator.

end of an era

Latham will have layoffs soon and will emcompass 1st year attorneys. It cannot be avoided given that the firm over hired based on a great 2007 year.

Latham will have layoffs soon and will emcompass 1st year attorneys. It cannot be avoided given that the firm over hired based on a great 2007 year.

Quinn sucks and they know it.

CravaTTTh parTTTners, associaTTTes and adminisTTTrative assisTTTants

69 -- No one likes 1Ls.

QUINN SUCKS.

79 = comment of the day

105 = complement of the day

Quinn's PPP numbers are questionable, to say the least. Quinn states it has 78 equity partners for purposes of the PPP calculation. http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/quinn_is_rolling_in_it.php

Quinn has said many times that there is only one tier of partners at the firm (see State of the Firm Address, 2009)

There are 117 partners listed on the QE website.

So what's the real deal here?

I am from Dallas. What's a Cravath?

108, it's a half-skadden with a 3-month severance package twist. delicious.

I know many people have expressed this sentiment today, but the quality of ATL is just so much fucking better with Marin & Lat. Seriously. Can this be permanent?

Huge New Lease
Huge Incoming Class This Fall
Tanking Revnue
Tumbling PPP

We've got a recipe for dissolution here.

People from Dallas should neither be seen nor heard.

Latham will have to layoff a significant number of people. No question.

But some firms ARE doing well- ive heard nothing but good thigns coming out of sidley, willkie, jonesday and i can tell you Kirkland NY is buzzing. no complaints here.

$2.5 million? Barely enough to support my coke habit, let alone the high-end prostitutes.

107 - Great catch if true. Nothing like adding $1M to PPP by reducing the number of partners you report by a third. Partner count for AMLaw reporting purposes is number of partners as of August 31. Somehow I doubt Quinn grew its partnership by a 33% in 4 months...You should place a call to the AmLaw.

113, so you're either more connected than God, or a not-so-subtle Jones Day troll

Cravass lobster

Quinn advertises in the Burbank f-ing airport - how TTT can you get?!?

S&C will emerge from the rubble of the credit crisis as second only to Wachtell.

S&C was everywhere last year-- nearly every critical deal, and the sov wealth deals before the crunch, were S&C deals. Cravath was nowhere to be found. Cravath also has way too many new associates coming in- there's just not enough work for them. S&C has fewer incoming associates and is big enough to absorb them. Cravath also got involved in a retarded new lease that will drain hundreds of millions over the next few years, while S&C owns its building. And Cravath PPP is now significantly lower than Cravath. Like Lehman Brothers, Cravath will learn that resting on one's laurels for years isn't a viable business strategy.

Honestly, can anyone remember Cravath in a headline recently? I mean a headline that doesn't mention slashed bonuses, hookers, pedophilia or crumbling PPP.

How the mighty have fallen!

PS: S&C partners make, on average, much more than Cravath partners. Cravath is clearly in dire straits and is buckling under its financial mismanagement. S&C is not. So why did S&C slash bonuses when it clearly can afford to match Skadden? Note too that Skadden partners make almost $1 million less than S&C partners, yet pay twice as much in bonuses.

jesus 107, you counted the number of partners on the QE web site? you must really be pissed about getting dinged there.

119 = 2L Summering at SulCrom DC

121: This is 119. I'm not affiliated with S&C and everything I said is a fact. Maybe I put a negative spin on Cravath, but on the facts alone S&C is a much healthier firm. I also pointed out in the P.S. section that Skadden is the real winner in all of this.

I like to fly into Burbank before I go home to Sherman Oaks to change into my clamdiggers on the way to work at Quinn. But first I like to drop by the Fry's right down the street from BUR because I know Quinn could represent them without breaking a sweat - the secret to staying cool is wearing shorts while all the other guys are getting sweaty balls in their super 150s. It's revolutionary.

Paul Weiss to the top, baby. Firm doing well.

Sweeeeet.

No, wait, I mean, sweat shop. Oh well. Better sweating here than there.

If BigLaw associates are really fungible (as everyone says), these layoffs cannot be performance-based.

Cravath is very badly managed. They need to do some major overhauling. Top of the list would be to get rid of all those do nothing parasites in the upper ranks with the huge salaries. Slavish adherence to outdated, top heavy hierarchy at the expense of merit and competence will do them in.

QUINN IS NOT A TOP CHOICE FOR PEOPLE LOOKING TO WORK IN CALIFORNIA

It's ridiculous to speak of them as a top-level player.

It's easy to grin
When your ship comes in
And you've got the stock market beat
But the man worthwhile
Is the man who can smile
When his shorts are too tight in the seat.

Okay Pookie, pay the bonuses...

"Will disappointing bonuses and declining profits affect the institutional prestige of Cravath? Will the firm fall from its traditional #2 spot on the Vault 100? Stay tuned."

We have the power to ensure that this happens. We are the Vault voters. A fall is certainly in order: half-Skadden bonuses; a significant drop in PPP; alleged mismanagement; and their propensity for hiring folks with interesting sexual proclivities.

It's time to drop them. Stay tuned indeed.

Maybe now they wish they beefed up their bankruptcy group a little more, instead of just plucking one partner from Skadden and calling it good.

Conspiracy. All the JEW firms are doing well, whereas all the WASP firms are being hit hard.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the profits cratered during what was actually a good year on the whole (2008) what is happening this year?

Whatever you do people, don't reduce your bloated headcount by layoffs as that might impact your ability to recruit at such eliTTTe schools as northwesTTTern, fordham, cardosso and wherever else lower class b student strivers congregate.....

Id bet some firms would be interested in taking on some lateral partners from this firm, but do any of these partners have any significant personal portables? Aren't most of their clients institutions hiring the name rather than the attorneys?

131 -- it can hardly be called a conspiracy when we are all in on it.

Wait, you are Jewish, right? Right?!

Hmph. Milbank's ppp declined as well. 16%. What's interesting is that their overall headcount increased 9% in 2008. I wonder if it will be decreasing 9% this year to make up for that.

Slightly off topic, but can anyone explain why STB profit for partner hasn't been reported?

The lawyer reported on the 17th that their PEP (Profit for Equity Partner) was down 13.4%. Since Simpson only has equity partners doesn't that mean their PPP is down 13.4%? or am I missing something?

Link: http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=136784

sorry 13.7%

-136

Will Cravath start laying off people? Or just dump the incoming summer class?

Okay folks, listen good, because i'm only saying this one more time. Yes, they didn't grow their fee intake at the same rate over the last year, but that's not why profits for these elite firms are down. It's their OVERHEAD. Law firms are almost as bad at business as doctor's for christ's sake. They increased they're right costs by 300% per lawyer! .... they're spending almost 800K more per partner on rent this year than they did last year. Profits Per Partner didn't DROP, per say, the Partners just chose to waste more of their money by that extravagent lease in Hell's Kitchen. Wachtell, for christ's sake, has a whole separate building they lease that is empty "in case their is a catastrophic event that prohibits the use of their current office space."

I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.

Why no report on SRZ's strong showing $2.3 million per partner while maintaining slightly-above-market bonus structure?

do clients give a shit at all about a firm's office space? or is it all just for partners to feel important?

139 - per se

I typically don't like Elie jokes, but #24 is quite clever. Well done #24.

I typically don't like Elie jokes, but #24 is quite clever. Well done #24.

Cravath is poorly run. Unlike most firms, Cravath is still run as a firm, for the prosperity of the firm as a whole.

I spent a couple of years at Cravath before moving to a V50 firm that is a very well run business. Despite the fact that PPP were up in 2008, we have had salary freezes and stealth lay-offs, and everyone is falling all over themselves to make sure the super-rainmaking partners don't leave - the non-super-rainmaking partners have all taken pay cuts to distribute more to a privileged few. I am glad to be where I am because I would not have made partner at Cravath (I am not willing or able to bill 3300-3600/year for the opportunity), and my current firm will certainly weather the storm.

That said, there are definately days that I miss the feeling of being part of something better than the sum of its parts. Cravath is a well-oiled machine, with a lock-step partnership that puts the firm before self. All the star partners there could be making more money elsewhere. (Ask Chesler how his net worth compairs to his peer David Boies).

When Cravath Partners tell associates (implicitly) that they must work unbelievably hard, sacrifice their health and personal life and give %110 of themselves to the firm, it actually has meaning because they have all done it themselves. When a partner at my current firm tries to get associates to work harder by giving a speech about dedication to the firm and client service, it falls flat and leads to cynical posts on this board.

Associates who brag about their firm's PPP on blogs are idiots. It's not your money, and the partners who get it see you as a cog, nothing else. That's why they fire you en masse when they no longer need you.

WHEN RODGE RETIRES, S&C WILL DECLINE FASTER THAN CRAVATH. CLIENTS HIRE THE LAWYER, NOT THE FIRM. AND S&C DOES NOT HAVE A DEEP BENCH, AND MANY OF THEIR STARS WILL LEAVE WHEN RODGE LEAVES.

their bench isnt deep b/c of the huge exodus of midlevels a few years ago -- their best potential partners are gone.

Well 146, what else should we brag about? Basically, we all make the same amount of money (give or take a small percentage) and do the same sh*t. We could brag about the "prestige" of our firms or the cool "headline" deals we're on, but really that's just overcompensation for the fact that V2 through V100 and beyond basically pay the same amount.

145 Well said. That's the reason why Cravath has such high prestige. The strength of the whole firm is much larger than the simple sum of all its attorneys. People there still feel that they are part of Cravath, not simply employees.

"Well 146, what else should we brag about?"

Why exactly do you feel the need to brag in the first place?

@150: Cause being a lawyer sucks and it's the only way I can justify getting up and going to work in the morning?

"@150: Cause being a lawyer sucks and it's the only way I can justify getting up and going to work in the morning?"

Have you tried alcoholism? I've heard it works for some people.

#39's message needs to be repeated. With 160(!) incoming first-years, what is CSM going to do with all those people?

"Top of the list would be to get rid of all those do nothing parasites in the upper ranks with the huge salaries. Slavish adherence to outdated, top heavy hierarchy at the expense of merit and competence will do them in."

Actually, the "top of the list" should be firing all juniors, telling mid-level and seniors to take pay cuts down to junior levels or be fired, and having the mids and seniors do all the remaining work. Keep only those juniors to make up for mids and seniors that walk.

151, you have some deep-seated issues if the only justification for your existence is to "brag" about an average amount of money earned by people besides yourself on an anonymous Internet message board.
Kill self now.

We'll be breaking out the Cravath Walk this week in a drive to enhance our PPP for 2009.

147 you are way off. S&C has several top quality banking partners that have worked under Rodge for 30 years. They know what they are doing. These banks were clients of S&C before Rodge, and they will be afterwards.

157, you assume banks will still exist...

cravath is on the decline
we all know it

I think Quinn Associates get billable credit for posting on ATL.

Cravass Lobster

OCEANS RISE

CITIES FALL

QUINN REMAINS

160 - You guessed it baby!

118 - Spot on. I've seen that same pathetic ad and just shaken my head in disapproval.

39 - you saw what just happened to DPW's PPP, right? idiot.

@119: Are you at S&C, or just a troll? I only ask because I wonder if your grammar is reflective of S&C work product.

"And Cravath PPP is now significantly lower than Cravath."

BTW, one of the only reasons S&C maintains such high PPP is because they own their NY building (meaning less fixed costs and added rental revenues).

Oh, and didn't CSM recently re-up their lease at a higher rental rate? And sure, 160 summers increases their costs today, but when the market picks back up, they'll be better positioned to swallow up work from other firms.

Dog them now, but I'd trade my job at another V10 for one at CSM in a heart-beat.

HTH

146 is correct. Given that associates at all firms other than Wachtell and a couple others (Skadden, this year) make exactly the same money and bill out at the same rates, bragging about PPP is essentially bragging about how much less you get paid per hour than associates at other firms.

The real story here isn't CSM's 2008 numbers. It's what will happen in 2009. Remember, corporate work didn't really die at the top places like CSM until the second half of 08. It's not looking likely to come back anytime soon. So while Cravath's 08 numbers were off, expect 09 to be off far more. Tough times ahead for Cravath.

154 - The "do nothing parasites" are not just attorneys but incompetent administrative heads who get paid more than associates.

167, you're simply wrong. Of course PPP contains a component of billage hours, that's not all that goes into it. While billing rates and associate pay are largely fixed, other costs are not. And those costs are reflected in the PPP numbers. Well-run firms have overhead that is in the neighborhood of 40 percent. Poorly-run firms end up around 60 percent. (and this includes a lot of "Prestige" firms). Firms that have overspent on things like office space in the good times will now be dragged down by expensive long-term premium leases.

There's another reason for associates to be concerned with PPP. PPP numbers are the best indicators of a firm's ability to keep its rainmakers. As this market continues to crater, PPP will determine what firms stay together and what firms breakup. So 146 and 167, if you care whether you will have a job in a year, you should care what a firm's PPP are.

Too many posters here focus on one metric or another. Its all data to put into the model. But don't discount PPP. It does tell you something about a firm's stability and management.

The slightly irreverent tone of this spot-on post is why this blog became successful.

166, you're an idiot. Do you think that even if S&C lawyers post here that they treat their anonymous blog posts with the same care as their work product? It's obvious that you're an idiot.

So no one knows if there is a difference between PEP at a firm with only one tier of partners and PPP?

-136

if there is only one class of partner, then PEP=PPP. but ascertaining whether there actually is only one class? there's the rub.

168 has it right. Most of the bad news in 2008 occurred from September through December. Things weren't anywhere near as bad from January through August, although they started to go downhill toward the end of that period. If the first two months of 2009 are any indication, this current year is not going to be a good time to be a lawyer, or anything else for that matter.

If revenues are down 13% and PPP down 24% at Craven, Swine and Boor, how do you think that the rest of you are going to fare?

so to 47 ... the simpson "rumors" are true ... they've implied to a group of people that they should start considering "exit options"

157 -- having top banking partners is really something to brag about! banking is a real growth market! 3 years from now, "banking client" = some 50 year old bureaucrat with a BA from American working at Treasury's Bank Nationalization Department.

PRESTIIIIIIGE!

Hey douchebag from 119. Actually, yes, Cravath has been everywhere in the news APART from bad press. They had the first IPO of 2009, the first big IPO since early '08... and had a hand in a lot of the Bank Bailout work, and has stayed quite active in litigation. I've seen them on just as many deals as Sullivan, and Sullivan is a bigger firm so technically they should be on more now shouldn't they? Sullivan was insulated from this terrible economic year, and their profits are ALWAYS inflated, because the stroke of luck that was bullying out the bankrupt ex-owner of the building they are in like 20 years ago. Let's see what an extra $50 million or so a year in rents would do to Sullivan''s lofty PPP.

Why does it seem that all you hear about Cravath is bad news? Becuase everyone, ESPECIALLY that fat bastard called Elie MysTTTal, likes to talk shit about the best. That's all, folks.

Cravath partners took the hit partially so as not to have to do lay offs, particularly administrative staff. Sure, they have gotten rid of a few senior associates who weren't on track to become partners, but that's common practice at Cravath--even in the good times. It is understood at Cravath that if you're not going to make partner, you might as well move on. Also, 20 years ago, they took a small summer associate class when times were tough and regretted it when the economy turned around. They're simply learning from experience. Like 'em or not, they're going to come back bigger and better than ever.

Meanwhile, SRZ partners may have done well, but they're letting go of a LOT more people than anyone realizes and have been practically all year long.

It's all a matter of value. At a firm like Cravath, you feel like you're a part of something bigger than yourself, and in turn, YOU are taken care of in times like these. At a firm like SRZ, you feel invincible yourself--it's all about you. Then, when times are tough, if there isn't enough work to dole out and you're not an insider to their club, you're let go.