Loyola is a Tier one?

Loyola is a Tier one?

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Nice spelling Elie. Maybe if you spent time spellchecking rather than fear-mongering you wouldn't look like such a twit.

That's pure BS.

"Loyola is a Tier 1 school."

If a school ranked 63d now qualifies as being in "Tier 1," I guess. But, in common parlance, "Tier 1" refers to the top 50 schools.

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such an incompetent clutch.

I think it was very brave of the tipster to confront the dead.

Contact the firms, explain the problem and make arrangements outside of OCI. It seems easier than waiting for Stanford to say no (again).

Duh. Loyola has been doing that for a long time. Old news. Catholic shame.

Screwing over the leaches who hit n' run.

Not like it matters in this economy anyway.

if loyola is a tier 1 then tier 2 does not exist.

what makes more sense?
1-100 is tier 1, 100-150 is tier 3, 150-200 is tier 4

or

1-50 is tier 1, 50-100 is tier 2, 100-150 is tier 3, 150-200 is tier 4

"f*cking their chances at BigLaw."??

Darling, you did that to yourself when you *enrolled* at Loyola.

7-

Really? We're going to bust his chops about missing a hyphen (on-campus)? I don't think so. Just move along. Sometimes it's cool to bash on Elie (he uses the wrong verb tense, substitutes homonyms, etc.), but this is just nitpicky and makes you seem like an over-reaching jerk-off.

So if they have outstanding applications they can't interview at the LA and Orange County DAs office? That's a damn shame.

Loyola = Harvard of Downtown LA.

Hey 4,

Get a life, or a girlfriend, or tutor high school brats for the SAT's. So tired of these d-bags giving grammar lessons.

Re: Loyola,

They should sue the school for breach of contract. You paid for the school's services and are entitled to the benefit until you inform them them that you pull out. You can always pay this semester tuition and pull out by a certain time with a refund. Just sue the school. I'm sure the Dean will be happy to let you interview.

4 = EPIC DEUCHE.

15-

Loyola MarymounTTT?

11,

USNWR had to respond to all the whining from Tier 2 about being good enough for Tier 1. So now it appears that the focus is the "Top 100" compared to "everyone else."

Everyone basically just wants a girl to confirm their penis is adequately sized.

I agree the former breakdown is stupid.

4 = Denny's law school version of GRAMMARPUSS
("He's the grammarpuss, grammarpuss")

I thought that one student was going to confront the dead after the jump, but it turns out the dean is still alive.

Never thought I'd see "top", "law students", and "Loyola" all in the same headline!

simple solution - don't try to transfer out. Or, if you plan on transferring out - make sure you are going to get accepted. If you are treating Loyola as a stepping stone, don't expect the stone to help you out too much! Shit, they already offer you a scholarship to stay if you are in the top 10% - what more do you want? You want them to allow you into the OCI process, and then have you transfer out, so the law firm now has to pick someone off it's backup list since it originally scheduled you? That wastes everyone's time.

My lawyer went to Loyola. Look hoe that worked out for me.

If Loyola was Tier 1, their students wouldn't be so damn hot to transfer that the school would retaliate en masse.

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such stupid doo doo head

17,

It's spelled douche. EPIC FAIL

Love,

4

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such stupid doo doo head

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such stupid doo doo head

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such fat, disgusting, lazy something-or-rather

LLM at top school to try to break into BigLaw, or quit the hunt for BigLaw job?
How do LLMs fair in job considerations?

-TTT 3L top 3%

It is definitely not true that "10-20%" of the top students at Loyola try to transfer. The biggest reason is that Loyola gives full-tuition scholarships to students at the very top of their class.

Hey GRAMMARPUSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm glad you have nothing to do. Sounds like you used to work at LW.

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such a .... you.

17,

It's spelled douche. EPIC FAIL

Love,

4

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such a homosexual

How did the tipster's confrontation with the "dead" go? Really? "dead?"

"Because it looks like that is what happening at Loyola (L.A.) Law School right now. "

So, what happening?

You are not proofing this stuff, and it shows...

It's GRAMMARPUSS!

AND HE LIKES GRAMMAR AND ATL

BUT HATES ELIE, AND GRAMMAR MISTAKES

It's GRAMMARPUSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

31,

If you are possibly graduating without a job, I'd apply for some of the top LLM programs. It is a bit of a risk, but that's what I would do personally.

NO GOOD ATTORNEYS HAVE EVER COME FROM LOYOLA, THEY ONLY COME FROM GOOD SCHOOLS THAT ARE RANKED HIGH AND THAT HAVE A HIGH LSAT AVERAGE BC ITS STUDENTS STUDIED FOR ONE YEAR STRAIGHT WHILE THEIR PARENTS PAID THEIR RENT.

Also, OCI interviews at Loyola aren't done by drawing like at some other local schools. So if firms choose interviews with students who then end up transferring, Loyola has then basically given up its OCI slots to other schools.

Good policy. F the Loyola DB's that think they are too good for Loyola.

"Loyola has pushed back its on campus interview season."

Hey Elie, nice proof reading. If you spent more time proof-reading rather than fear mongering you wouldn't like such recipient of affirmative action policies

I agree with 42 : )

NEW YORK TO STEALTH LAYOFFS OF ALL GRAMMARPUSS'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elie,

Thanks for bringing this to light. Many schools use unfair pressure tactics when dealing with potential transfers. These schools should embrace the transfers and remind them that in 20 years, when it comes to decide which law school to give $$$ to, that their school is the one who gave the transfer student the initial chance at law school--not the transfer school.

It is just ridiculous and childish that a law school dean would act this way. Shame on you dean.

This definitely takes the cake. I transferred from a school ranked near the 100 break up to a t-10. My 1L school, which will remain nameless, was pretty blatant in its attempts to keep me (demanding a letter of intent to re-enroll, dropping me from my summer job as a research assistant, refusing publish official transcripts until well after most schools' transfer application deadlines). But this is completely screwed up. Law schools need to stop placing their interest in keeping the best students over the career interests of those very same students.

Further, lower ranked schools need to remember that rankings are based on attorney review. That means that treating the best and brightest in your 1L class like escaping prisoners will only result in lower evaluations from those former students when they get into the legal field.

I WANT TO HEAR WHAT LOYOLA 2L HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS....COME OUT OF YOUR HIDING

First, 9 makes a good point that these top students are not entirely screwed in that they can still contact employers (although this still makes the process harder and is poorly devised policy).

While I think the policy is a poor one, it's particularly terrible that the school is not up front about the policy with employers. If they were, one could imagine that employers would push back, some insisting that they be able to interview top students. At least this way, "market forces" could push back against the policy and the school could be forced to make a decision in light of the consequences it would have for all students.

42 = Jealous little bitch.

39 (and others),

No job right now and should have $100k debt after the bar. What LLM programs do you think would be worth it? Which schools do I have a good shot of getting into?

-31 (TTT 3L top 3%)

where is Loyola 2L?????????????

i know he hung up his shoes but even the cast of Seinfeld is making a reunion on Curb Your Enthusiasm

this board is missing Loyola 2L......come home

Cocaine is a hell of a drug!

This is a breach of contract, or employment discrimination. As long as they are paying tuition and a student in good standing, the school is applying different standards to similarly situated individuals. Sue the the school!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

54,

employment discrimination? no

51

NYU, Georgetown, or St. John's Bankruptcy (only program in the country). I think the latter is the best option in this economy.

55

A school cannot selectively pick who is allowed to submit their candidacy for OCI so long as they paid the bills and are in good standing. What is the Loyola dean decided to only allow brunettes, or males, or caucasians interview? Legal?

Loyola is an excellent law school. I'm a Loyola alum, and I just made partner at BigLaw. There were many other lawyers from higher ranked law schools who started this journey with me, but, unfortunately, did not make it.

Best of luck to everyone!

11: none of the above. I had no idea that "tier 1" included schools outside the top 25. It's absurd to pretend the first real breaks don't happen way before you get to 50.

this is a more realistic breakdown, in terms of employment opportunities:

HYS: tier one
Columbia/NYU/maybe Chicago: tier two
remainder of "T14": tier three
remainder of top 25: tier 4
25-50: tier 5
50 and up: tier 6 (I don't believe there's any significant difference between the 50th and the 160th schools in terms of getting a job; you need to graduate in the top 5% either way)

Elie, You have no idea how terrible their CSO is. I graduated last year, and the only support I've received are emails like the one below, in which one of the counselors cuts and pastes legal jobs from craigslist or the dailyjournal. I am not exaggerating. That is all you get from that bloated office. Loyola's career services office is a true disgrace.

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:56:18 -0700
From: Marla.Nxxx@lls.edu
To: 2008xxx@mailman.lls.edu
Subject: [2008 grads] A few jobs from Craigslist

Fransen & Molinaro, LLP Seeks ATTORNEYS (Corona, California)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply to: job-cy3qt-1076477789@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-03-15, 3:39PM PDT

THE MORTGAGE LAW FIRM OF FRANSEN & MOLINARO, LLP SEEKS TO ADD ADDITIONAL ATTORNEYS TO OUR STAFF

ABOUT US: Our extremely busy and quickly growing mortgage law firm seeks to add additional ATTORNEYS to our staff. We represent plaintiffs against lenders, banks, brokers, escrow, and the horde of others who have taken advantage of them. We currently have SIX full-time attorneys and a full support staff of over SEVENTY legal assistants and/or paralegals who are ALL dedicated to keeping borrowers in their homes through: (1) Litigation (mostly Federal but quite a lot of State cases as well); (2) Loan Resolution (i.e., loan modification, deed in lieu negotiation, short sale negotiation); (3) Bankruptcy (Chapter 7 & 13); and (4) Other Uses of Our Professional Skills and Experience.

REQUIREMENTS ARE AS FOLLOWS:

BRIEF DESCRIPTION - The positions are for ATTORNEYS who must be members in good standing of the California State Bar. These ATTORNEYS will be mainly handling incoming calls from potential clients who seek our representation. These attorneys may also handle some non-litigation matters. While there is potential for advancement into other areas of our practice, including bankruptcy and litigation, the job will be almost exclusively potential client intake and some handling of non-litigation matters. Our current attorneys will continue handling the litigation and bankruptcies.

EXPERIENCE – This is an ideal position for a NEWLY ADMITTED ATTORNEY with a real estate background, preferably mortgage and/or lending experience. Because we are highly experienced in this niche field of law, we provide all the necessary training and support to our staff. This is also an ideal position for more experienced attorneys looking to work part-time in a non-stressful (read as no litigation) environment.

SKILLS – Must be extremely personable, affable, gregarious, and enjoy speaking with potential clients. Must work well on a team of like-minded professionals. Must be very comfortable with basic office software as well as computer-based tracking software. Must be well-organized with regard to record-keeping and keeping clients updated on a regular basis.

LICENSING – Must have valid California Bar license in good standing. NO EXCEPTIONS.

OTHER – Work is full-time or part-time IN THE OFFICE. Our main business hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. but we are also open some evenings and weekends, so these are possible hours of employment as well. Working from home is NOT allowed. Telecommuting is NOT allowed.

HOW TO APPLY: Please send a cover letter explaining why you are qualified for this job as well as your resume to our office for consideration. Resumes without cover letters will NOT be reviewed. No telephone calls, please. You may send by email, fax, or U.S. Mail. Our physical address is Fransen & Molinaro, LLP, 980 Montecito Drive, Suite 206, Corona, CA 92879.

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: Only qualified persons should apply. This job requires hard work and dedication to our law firm as well as a genuine desire to help troubled borrowers stay in their homes or get a new financial start. This is a great opportunity for counsel who wants to join a growing law firm that enjoys a growing client base.

WE ENCOURAGE DIVERSITY

Location: Corona, California
Compensation: Competitive
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 1076477789

CLASS ACTION FIRST YEAR ASSOCIATE (Downtown)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: job-tqv6z-1079091531@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-03-17, 10:06AM PDT

Dynamic, diverse and growing Plaintiff’s firm seeks first year associate attorney with the drive and determination to be part of a growing class action environment. Strong academic background and excellent research, writing, analytical and communications skills required. Please forward resume, salary expectations and writing samples.

Location: Downtown
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 1079091531

LAW CLERK-LONG BEACH (LONG BEACH)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: job-efrpm-1079155688@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-03-17, 10:41AM PDT

LAW CLERK - Long Beach firm has an immediate position for a Law Clerk. Must have excellent research, writing, organizational and verbal communication skills. Environmental law, Land Use, and/or Municipal Law experience preferred but not required. Please fax resume and a writing sample to (562)216-4445 or e-mail to hvillegas@tmllp.com.

Location: LONG BEACH
Compensation: $20.00 per hour
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 1079155688

The RE And Mortgage Firm Seeks Attorneys (los angeles)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: job-huwwb-1079186556@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-03-17, 10:58AM PDT

Ground floor opportunity for an attorney to join our team. We represent plaintiffs with respect to Mortgage Fraud, NOT a Foreclose or Loan Modification position.
Mostly trial work and must be familiar with the discovery process, ready to jump right in and file first case. Appellate procedural knowledge helpful. Several part-time positions are available.
• We’ll provide all the necessary guiding and support to legal staff.
• Must be quick Learner and Team Player
• Self Starter (works well independently, self-managed)
• Real Estate, Title, Mortgage experience preferred
• Familiar with court rules
• Energetic and ambitious
• Good Research Skills
• Must be licensed with the State Bar of California.
• Will consider contract basis, possible partnership
Please submit CV and contact information.

Location: los angeles
Telecommuting is ok.
This is a part-time job.
This is a contract job.
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 1079186556

58 -- You sir, are a douche. If you were my boss, I would tell you so and then go smoke a cig. What the fuck does your post contribute to this discussion?

ParaLegal

*laid off biglawyers run to apply to 60's jobs*

57, Loyola is not its students' EMPLOYER. I think that was 55's point. Jesus.

Law school is a business transaction. Transferring is not "disloyal," any more than changing phone companies. If the top-ranked students pay the same, they should receive the same benefits.

Loyola's dean is a massive embarrassment.

1. This is not news. Loyola has been doing this for years.

2. OCI in July? Good luck getting firms to show up while they are still in the middle of the summer associate class. It's going to be tough to trim summers to 60% offers AND recruit new ones at the same time.

3. Shame on you, Loyola.

4. Not only is July too early for transfer applicants to know whether they've been accepted or not, but most will not even have complete applications. Almost every school drags ass on getting grades in / computing GPA & class rank for as long as possible.

I went to Loyola, and students at the bottom of the class are always complaining that "the career services office doesn't help me." The comment above is exemplary of such fact. A school with rankings like Loyola's obviously cannot guarantee employment to everybody, and this is exactly why a policy like this one is not so bad in light of Loyola's situation - when you've got your own alums complaining that they can't get jobs, why should Loyola give up its OCI interviews to students who aren't going to be their alums anyway?

66 - At Loyola "bottom of the class" means bottom 90% I assume.

I wonder if Loyola is as much of a stickler when it comes to its *incoming* transfer students.

According to the 2009 ABA Official Guide to Law Schools (http://officialguide.lsac.org/), Loyola LA, despite its "tough love" stance, had 12 students transfer away. But, Loyola LA enrolled 33 transfers (and most certainly accepted more that chose to go elsewhere/stay put).

So, did Loyola Admissions require all its incoming transfer applicants to withdraw from OCI or forfeit scholarships at their 1L schools? I really doubt it.

Loyola plays games with its outgoing students, but is more than willing to poach top-perfomers from Tier 3-4 schools. Not cool.

Elie, I wish you had done this homework instead of me. Also, I wish you proofread.

Students with top grades at Loyola receive a scholarship and have their pick of Big Los Angeles Law Firms at OCI. These incentives keep many students at Loyola when the opportunity to transfer to is available.

If these incentives aren't enough by themselves, then Loyola needs to reevaluate what it's doing. They shouldn't even consider heavy-handed tactics to keep students.

I had the opportunity to transfer after my first year, but I didn't want to give up the OCI interviews and end up at the bottom of the OCI priority list at a new and more expensive school. I figured I had over 25 interviews during OCI with every major BigLaw in my practice area, and it could only get worse at a new school.

Looking back, I should have taken the chance and transferred, but I doubt it would have made a single bit of difference in my career.

I transferred from a T2 back in summer of 2006. Nothing this bad happened, but they wouldn't release my class rank until well into July. Then when some of my apps still weren't complete I called the transferee school and they said they never received my ranking, despite the transferor school saying they had sent it. Such feet dragging can really hurt because schools often accept transfer students on a rolling basis. I'm convinced I would have gotten into a higher ranked school if my crappy school did not fuck around with me. As it is, I was able to transfer -- thank God -- and get the hell out of that shithole. Point being, this stuff is common, but Loyola's new actions are pushing it, to say the least.

59,

There certainly is a difference between school # 50 and school # 160 in terms of employment prospects. Just look at the disparity in terms of biglaw and clerkship representation. And your top 5% statistic may be right in this crazy market, but in years past top 10-15% from school # 50 could work biglaw if they wanted.

Maybe. But they're definitely getting poor educations.

* testing - is there a moderator on this site - testing*

Now that we have dedicated a lot of space to the aniligus capacities of beanie Cardozo 2Ls, I was wondering if anyone - maybe some of you enterprising moot court people out there - had any anal experiences with these Loyola 2Ls.

Please share. I understand that Catholic girls are bigger prudes, and thus their asses are probably much tighter. Maybe a detailed comparison of the Catholic vs. Beanie experience?

@69 -- may I ask where you ended up? I had the same opportunity to transfer, and I took it, however, I lost my opportunity at OCI (there were other issues involved in my transferring, so this wasn't the primary consideration).

I was in the top of my class at my previous school (a well respected regional school) and would have most likely ended up with a good regional firm making good money (but not biglaw money). Instead, I chose to transfer, had no summer 2L job (as I could not participate in my transferee school's OCI, my options for employment were limited at best), and had to be very "creative" in my employment options after graduating. I later returned to school and obtained an LL.M. and work at a biglaw job, but I often wonder if I would have been better off, career wise, staying at my regional school. Not going through OCI was incredibly tough on my career.

"There certainly is a difference between school # 50 and school # 160 in terms of employment prospects. "

There actually isn't much difference. It's called the "funnel cloud" effect. http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2008/04/large-law-firm.html

74,

What LLM program did you attend? Any recommendations?

-31/51

58,

You will forever have an insecurity complex.

Why can't people participate in OCI at their new schools? Transfer students always were part of our OCI at Michigan. Is it just early OCI dates? Lots of schools always had it at the end of August and transfer students knew by then.

Hellooooo!!!

Beanie v. Jesuit anal escapades -

DISCUSS!!! Now, or St. Ignatius take you all to hell!!

as an employed loyola 3L, I can say from my experience that the career services office is terrible all around and "poor services" is nothing new.

totally agree with 64, too bad the massive embarrassment just got hired and will be sticking around for a while

78: 74 here -- I transferred from a school that was the best regionally, and hence, had a later OCI date, to one, that while higher ranked nationally than my first school, was in the middle of regional rankings, meaning that the OCI program was earlier in the summer. That's a really long way of saying I missed OCI at my transferee school, but the OCI at my transferor school occured right at the start of the 2L semester.

(my understanding of OCI dates is that they relate to the rankings of the school, but that could be totally false as well)

If I recall correctly (it's been some years), I was still waiting to hear from my transferee school right about the time that OCI was to start, which meant I was unable to participate. I don't even think I understood how badly this could impact my employment prospects until much later.

Curiously, Loyola accepts transfers from other law schools.

Hmmm...this issue reminds me of the issue in Unocal v. Mesa Petroleum, 493 A.2d 946 (Del. 1985)

_____
P. Pill

Hmmm...this issue reminds me of the issue in Unocal v. Mesa Petroleum, 493 A.2d 946 (Del. 1985)

_____
Poi Sun Pil

Students f**ked their chance at Big Law when they enrolled in a school with that rank. Not to sound snotty, but either do a better law school application to get in the highest ranked school you can, or accept the cheaper tuition and the reality the chances for Big Law is very slim.

85, must have been reading legal blogs since high school

First, Loyola is a good law school, with some excellent professors. (Side note here, but people who post comments on blogs harping on whether a school is "TTT" are probably the same people whose main concern is the BMW they think they'll be able to buy when they graduate at the bottom of their class.)

However, Loyola's policy regarding transfer students is unnecessarily hard on its top students, who worked hard, have proven themselves and should be able to go the school they want. The policy actually backfires on the school, because OCI employers will wonder where the best students are -- if they don't see them, they assume Loyola doesn't have any that are that caliber.

This is not surprising at all considering Loyola's current sitting Dean and his general attitude toward students.

Speaking from personal experience, I found the Dean to be a small and petty person who cared more about showing off how powerful he could be rather than actually concerning himself with meager requests for fair and sensible school policies. I am glad to say I am done with Loyola, and probably won't give them a dime while he is the acting Dean.

In my opinion this is just another example of Loyola and its administration's absolute lack of concern for students and the power that they yield over their student's professional lives.

I am a Loyola student towards the top of the class. This policy is old news - they threatened me with the same thing and was one of the reasons why I did not transfer.

However, the comments about the service operations here are spot on. Loyola has some notoriously bad service all around - from lousy attitudes, to incompetence, to just down right nastiness.

That being said, I am going for nearly free and had my pick of firms in the LA market - so I guess not all is lost.

as a 2L in the top 30 at loyola, I think its a lame policy, but ONLY for the students who actually want to leave for a legit reason, like "i dont like la after all" "my family is elsewhere" etc... not becuase theyre worried about making tons of money. It would suck to want to leave legitimately and then get screwed for OCI because you just put in an application to a school youd rather be at.

as for the top students at loyola who want to transfer becuase of prestige - no sympathy for you. if you wanna chase that $ so hard you deserve a little risk in your sad life... esp. since biglaw jobs are coming for you anyways. in a normal economy the top 20 here would all have biglaw jobs in la. its not like you wont get a job if you stay. youre just being spoiled, and frankly im happier if you leave.

69 --- you are crazy if you think top Loyola students have their pick of top LA firms at OCI

Top 10% 3L at Loyola

Profs/Bar Prep has always been stellar at LLS, BUT CSO, administration and the like have all gone to sh*t since Burcham left. Not surprised at all by this policy.

Then again, wondering why anyone would leave here after 1 year (and turning down essentially a free ride) to go to another LA school. The school doesn't make the lawyer, despite what ATL seems to suggest.

Top 10% 3L at Loyola

Profs/Bar Prep has always been stellar at LLS, BUT CSO, administration and the like have all gone to sh*t since Burcham left. Not surprised at all by this policy.

Then again, wondering why anyone would leave here after 1 year (and turning down essentially a free ride) to go to another LA school. The school doesn't make the lawyer, despite what ATL seems to suggest.

This problem can easily be resolved. The other law schools can admit Loyola students with self-reported grades to be verified after admission. And recommendations can either be done informally (i.e., find a professor who won't rat you out) or not at all.

As someone who didnt apply to transfer because of this policy, i still have to say that lls' "20 oci interview limit" does more to frak its students than help them...

also, LLS' OCI is in August.

Transferring should be abolished.

Loyola has so many hotties from UCLA with 3.2 GPAs. People dress up for class like they are going to a club. The school even has free parking! It is trust fund heaven.

80, you are outing yourself by referring to yourself as an "employed 3L." You are probably one of two such 3Ls at Loyola.

I a top ranked student at Loyola. I received a 3.4 GPA in Poli Sci from a mid-tier school and got a 161 LSAT. I am a bad ass.

97- No free parking, that is just dumb

Seriously, 97, what law school doesn't have free parking?

Sorry insecure TTT's.
Even some top 25% LLS students received biglaw offers in a shit economy, so you're going to have to stop hiding behind your school's rank and actually prove your merits. Your bigotry and elitism can't protect you from being a terrible person to work with. Have fun on the chopping block...

58 = Loyola 2L without a summer job.

Dear deluded 101, A top 25% Loyola student has absolutely no chance of biglaw, outside of nepotism. Only 6% of Loyola grads get NLJ 250 firms. SIX PERCENT.

Evidence: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

No worries. Loyola folks can always go to work for OMM: two TTTs united in one common purpose.

91 -- grossly underestimating how many attorneys (BIGLAW) in Los Angeles graduated from Loyola.

75 - Great chart. Keep in mind that the only relevant year for those employment numbers on the funnel is 2005. 2006 and 2007 (and 2008) were abnormal and are not going to be repeated.

What the 2005 funnel does show is the utter pointlessness of jockeying around in the schools T14-40. No one gets 30% and it's not even a consistent decline.

There actually is no free parking from what I have heard, unless you carpool.

Is this really true about the dean? I have heard he's a great professor with a good personality, especially for evidence. I wonder where all this information is coming from. Is he really that mean towards transfers? Is OCI really moved up to July?

I repeat, only 6% of Loyola grads get NLJ 250 firms. SIX PERCENT.

Evidence: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

And that was in a good economy.

I disagree with 96. Transferring should be mandatory.

The only place with more queers than the gay pride parade in San Francisco is Loyola.

I bet this tipster is one of those lame, gunner evening students who has no job and only went to the evening program for a better chance at beating the curve.

this would never happen at michigan. we only had one person transfer out last year. we're like a cult...once you enter you can never leave.

*puts on snuggie aka cult garment*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

59: if you're really going to be that fine grained in drawing your "tiers," then it's more like:

yale: tier 1
stanford: tier 2
harvard: tier 3
columbia/chicago: tier 4
rest of top 14: tier 5

there are very significant differences between yale, stanford, and harvard. bottom of the class at harvard is looking at bottom of vault 100 (and maybe worse); this is not true of yale and stanford students. also, nyu is not at the same level as chicago and columbia.

It is shameful that administrators at dumps like Loyola Law School (I don't necessarily think so, but the legal market does) prevent students the opportunity to better their lives. After all, should it matter to these administrators? One would think after attending premium legal education breeding grounds (even shiTTTY law school admins and prof all go to the right places), these 'educators' would encourage their students to do good like those educators did.

Presumably, LLS operates a non-profit institution, where they are not even taxed at the extortion money they charge their students. If the Loyola administrators are going to jeopardize the lives of young adults like this, maybe they should lose their tax-exempt status... the same way the Church LLS affiliates with should lose their tax-exempt status for their shenanigans in Prop 8. (I make this last comment from across the country in New York, so the facts might be blurry).

MAKE SURE TO TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW CONSIDERING LAW SCHOOL TO SELECT ANOTHER SCHOOL

MAKE SURE TO TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW CONSIDERING LAW SCHOOL TO SELECT ANOTHER SCHOOL

This is what you get for going to a POS law school like this.

101 - try every law school in Boston. No free parking. I imagine NYC is the same way.

this excellent news for no one.

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Adam On Idol

By St. Ignatius's wooden cock, why doesn't anyone want to talk about anal sex? What is it about Cardozo that it inspires a comment section entirely devoted anal bungling, but no one will take the bait here? Do Jesuit girls only give hand jobs or something? WTF people. I thought those Latina chicks in LA were all real dirty whores. The problem with Loyola LA isn't their career center - the problem is that no one is getting any.

The Loyola transfer policy is unfair, and it was good for ATL to run this story so that other people are aware of it. Do other mid-level schools have the same policy (i.e. Hastings, UC Davis)?

But contrary to 91's comments, the top students at Loyola go to Gibson Dunn, Irell, Latham, OMM, and Paul Hastings every year. I think those count as top LA firms.

114: interesting post
not sure if you're a stanford, columbia, or chicago troll.

you threw in a little of everything to throw us off the trail. i'd guess columbia since you felt the need to put down nyu for no reason.

Isn't tier 1 really the top 15?

123: munger is probably the one glaring exception

Who even heard of ATL, before law school? Presumably, people were doing better things (even for the Harvard Law SCOTUS clerks out there) before starting law school. Or maybe the ones that go to Harvard were not doing better things, which is how those ones got into Harvard. It's the rest of us future sub-humans (at least in the legal world) that once had better things going for us.

I don't have time to read all the comments, so forgive if these points have already been made.

I would imagine the firms won't be terribly appreciative of this move--blocking them from the top students at the school. Now the students who had the best shot at a top firm will be kept out of the pool. Does Loyola think those jobs will just go to the next tier of students? Or will Loyola see a marked decline in the number of students who even get offers, now that the cream of the crop are out? My money's on the latter.

To take it a step further, for the 90% of students who go to Loyola hoping that they can do well and go somewhere better, Loyola just sent a big "you're not welcome" message. With plenty of other CA firms similarly situated (i.e., "not top 20"), many students will simply go where they will have the option to transfer and to interview.

So... fewer total applicants, lower quality applicants, and a lower success rate for law firm placement.... awesome idea, Loyola. This will really help you climb in the rankings.

I don't have time to read all the comments, so please forgive if these points have already been made.

I would imagine the firms won't be terribly appreciative of this move--blocking them from the top students at the school. Now the students who had the best shot at a top firm will be kept out of the pool. Does Loyola think those jobs will just go to the next tier of students? Or will Loyola see a marked decline in the number of students who even get offers, now that the cream of the crop are out? My money's on the latter.

To take it a step further, for the 90% of students who go to Loyola hoping that they can do well and go somewhere better, Loyola just sent a big "you're not welcome" message. With plenty of other CA firms similarly situated (i.e., "not top 20"), many students will simply go where they will have the option to transfer and to interview.

So... fewer total applicants, lower quality applicants, and a lower success rate for law firm placement.... awesome idea, Loyola. This will really help you climb in the rankings.

124: 114 here; i didn't go to any of the schools you identified. i went to a "tier 5." stanford does well due to class size. i stand by my comment re the bottom of hls -- it was not looking so hot even when the economy was doing well. as for nyu, i was replying to the earlier commenter who reflexively put it with columbia and chicago -- their usnews ranks and student stats are similar, but in terms of placement, nyu has much less traction (compared to cc) outside of wall street, e.g. at the non-nyc firms that might be considered elite.

I am a student who transferred from Loyola last year. For me, Loyola has stellar professors, great students, an awesome campus, and really, really terrible policies and administrators.

I am extremely happy with my decision to transfer -- I ended up doing great in OCI at my new school, and the entire process has opened up a lot of doors for me. But I would not have transferred were it not for Loyola's evil transfer policy. Basically, there came a point where I either had to choose NOT to transfer or commit to transferring and never look back.

Loyola's policy looks worse the more you learn about it:

1) The policy was not shared with us until the middle of finals. We got an e-mail about OCI with a lot of substantive information and this paragraph inserted toward the end:

" Also, students who apply to transfer from Loyola Law School, as evidenced by their request to have their Loyola transcript forwarded to another law school, or their request for a letter of good standing or faculty letters of recommendation for another law school, will be deemed to be ineligible to participate in Phase I of OCI. Such students may restore their eligibility for Phase II by enrolling in the Fall semester and reaffirming their intention to remain at Loyola throughout the Fall semester. Students who make false statements of their intention to remain at Loyola may be deemed to have violated the Law School's Standards of Conduct and be subject to the sanctions which apply to such violations."

Phase II is a very stripped down phase of OCI with mostly public interest jobs and firms that didn't get their paperwork together in time for Phase I.

The process of just ASKING a prof for a recommendation or requesting your transcript triggered your exclusion from OCI. I had already asked a professor for a letter of recommendation by the time I got the e-mail, so I was technically already barred from OCI by the time I got the e-mail.

2) According to one professor I spoke to, administration actively dissuades professors from agreeing to write letters of recommendation for transfers. To get one prof to agree to write me a letter of recommendation, I basically had to promise to not apply to another LA school. Another prof just would not respond to my e-mails -- even though I got an A in the class and had a good relationship with him/her before I asked.

3) Loyola tells the 1L class that students who end up in the top 5% and 10% get "substantial" scholarships -- but will not share actual numbers. Last year, students in the top 10% got $27K and those in the top 5% got $29K. However, this amount isn't awarded until very late in the summer -- after transfer application deadlines. So if you are in the top 10% and you choose not to apply to transfer, you must trust that Loyola will give you the same amount in scholarship money that they have given in the past.

4) If you are selected for law review, you are asked to agree to a contract in which you promise to attend Loyola in the fall "barring unforeseen circumstances." So not only do you have to choose transferring over OCI, you have to choose it over participation in law review.

5) The school will not release your transcript to another school and the dean will not sign any dean's certification forms until you have a consultation meeting with them, where they essentially use scare tactics to try to get you to stay. I was told that I wouldn't be able to do OCI at my new school (not true), that I wouldn't do well at OCI at my new school (not true), that I wouldn't be able to do law review (not true), and that I wouldn't make any friends or long-term relationships at my new school. I was also told point-blank that transferring would effectively end my relationships with my current professors, and that no professor would write be a clerkship recommendation down the road (sadly, probably true).

6) The school seems to understand that most schools do rolling admits, and it seems like their policies are designed to slow down the application process and make sure time is NOT on your side. One of my recommendations was "lost in the mail" and had to be re-sent; it also took them forever to send in my dean's cert form. They also release class rankings extremely late in the semester -- more than 6 weeks after the last final.

7) All of this is done under the subtle color of law -- the implication is "if you misrepresent your intentions to us, we will report you to the bar and cause problems for you on your good moral character application."

I was a HUGE Loyola booster last year, but the entire process left me pretty bitter about the school. Rather than resorting to these borderline-evil policies, it seems like it would be better for the school to just accept the fact that a good chunk of students in the top 10% are going to transfer, and then work with these students.

I know of a few students who applied to transfer and then decided to stay at Loyola -- and were allowed to do OCI. So all of this is mostly scare tactics. But I realized last summer in the middle of it all that I didn't want to spend another two years at a school that conducted itself this way and relied on in terrorem tactics to hold onto students. A legal institution shouldn't use its power to intimidate to improve its financial position or reputation. It's just dirty, desperate and low.

128 and 130 here (sorry for the double post... took so long to load... now I know how that shit happens).....

CA school, not firm.... I'm obviously a 2L with firm mayhem on the brain.

127: Actually, the ones not doing anything are most likely to have skipped over ATL. Those doing better things made sure that a three-year investment worth well over $300,000-$500,000 net after taxes less scholarships was worthwhile.

97, 101 - Parking is over $600 a year at Loyola - far from free.

60 - Those emails are f'ing ridiculous. The worst one was the one last week saying she was no longer obligated to keep up the list. It was pretty clear that since they turned in their final surveys to the bar, they don't care about getting us jobs anymore, so they'd rather try and get 09 grads jobs now. It doesn't matter, cut and paste from last week's craigslist and daily journal ads don't help me. I haven't gotten a single lead from craigslist or daily journal - the only interviews I've gotten are from the ads on symplicity. They need to contact more firms with Loyola grads and beg them to list any available position there, where our grads aren't competing with all the laid off, 4 year attorneys looking at public listings. I just lost out on a job that I was pretty much handed at the interview, because the guy got a resume from a 4 year attorney shortly thereafter, who would work for the same price.

Although I agree it is wrong to screw the transfer students, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. The problem is, OCI is pretty much useless for those of us outside of the top 20%. I don't care whether or not the transfer students interview, because those jobs weren't open to me anyway. How about getting some other types of employers on campus? I'm looking in OC, and there was never anyone other than the OC DA, which is where I ended up my first summer.

I have absolutely no complaints about the quality of education I got at Loyola, but the administration is terrible.

Tiers...

T1: Yale
T2: Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto Rico School of Law
TTT: Everyone else

Now go to sleep you TTT, you have a long day of hating your life tomorrow

131: Re your commment:

"4) If you are selected for law review, you are asked to agree to a contract in which you promise to attend Loyola in the fall "barring unforeseen circumstances." So not only do you have to choose transferring over OCI, you have to choose it over participation in law review."

Who cares if you break that K with a law school. It will not sue a student. I have never heard a school suing an individual student.

Sorry I'm late to this thread, I had a late shift at the diner. Not sure if it matters that much whether one stays or goes, it's tough all over. We even had a Michigan 3L try to steal a sandwich the other day.

Loyola 2L

135 is love.

damn 131 - that's shitty

Wrong Nervous, there are 2 Michigan transfers in my (2L) class . . .

Has anyone laid off this year found a normal job yet? I've been laid off (from BIgNYLaw firm) most of this year and haven't had a single real interview yet, other than annoying recruiters calling and asking to come in.

131 is right on about all of it.

And it just goes to show the stupidity of being difficult towards students considering transferring.

Here's a guy (131) who had positive feelings about Loyola -- the professors, the campus, the students. If you treat him right -- by simply offering him the scholarship and telling him how much you want him to stay -- but offering to SUPPORT him whatever he chooses -- he'll feel good about Loyola whether he stays or goes.

Now, he's posting on ATL, and warning others away.

Loyola's a great school with great professors, it takes care of those who do well, and every major firm in town (save Munger and Quinn) comes for OCI. But its policy towards students who are considering transferring is not only petty, it's counter-productive.

Wow 60 -- that is truely astonishing

ATL, 60's comment sounds like a hot topic, get on it!

Loyola just plain sucks. What a shit policy. I would be so pissed if I was stuck there.

What is so great about Chicago?
How come they are #7 on the list?

Conscience do cost.

114/129, you don't know shit. I actually went to HLS; I'm not just some jackass like you who went to a tier 5 school and pretends expertise on job placement out of top 5 schools. I finished comfortably in the top 15% of my class (narrowly missed magna), but I knew *several* people that finished well in the bottom half (B/B+ students) who went to skadden (which is why I have always been baffled by people attributing "prestige" to that firm, but I guess that's my point). It's utter nonsense to say that people at the bottom of hls are fighting for spots at bottom-tier V100 firms. And given that you didn't go there or anywhere comparable, you clerly have no basis to dispute this fact.

129: if you don't go to HYSCCN or are a recruiter, then you don't know shit about it, do you?

what could you possibly know about stanford v. harvard recruiting? or the differences between CCN? Any differences between CCN are negligible for the purposes of law firm recruiting.

146-147 -- yeah, tell that to all the HLS kids at sheppard, dechert, pillsbury, etc., and all the NYU kids at any decent firm outside of NYC.

Everytime I finish masterbating, I feel sad.

140 -- say hi to AJR for me, and ask him about his book.

Here here 131.

"But there are students who get in, do very well, and then look to better deal the school. "

Huh?

Believe it or not, 148, the Vault rankings aren't the be-all-end-all to every HLS student. Plenty of people just go to firms based on facts specific to the firm rather than just going to the firm that the vault says is the best. (In the case of Dechert or Pillsbury, location probably would have a great deal to do with it -- the Philly and SF markets are not terribly large; I don't know anything about sheppard; in other cases, lifestyle (i.e., not working S&C hours) is something that's actually considered) In fact, it was my experience that the lower-achieving students were the ones most likely to go to the highest-ranking firm they could get into (see my point re Skadden -- just search Skadden's associate bios for Harvard students and see how many did not even graduate cum laude (top 40% of the class)), since those were the folks who needed a refill on self-esteem. (The other class of people who were obsessed with rankings were the ones set on going to WLRK or Cravath (which tended to hire attractive women from anywhere in the top half of the class -- Cravath, not WLRK). Again, you really have no basis to speak on this issue.

-146

It would appear that every single top Loyola student found this thread and posted in it.

That is a hilarious and undoubtedly true observation, 153.

I know you're probably just a flame, 148, but are you seriously suggesting that there are no NYU students at prestigious firms out of NYC?

I am concerned for Loyola's position in the legal community. They get written up as "The best learning experience" in the Princeton review and then they pull this *&^ policy. Already students who cannot get into top 20 schools are bypassing Loyola for - get this - Peperdine (spelling?) because at least they do not have such an onerous policy. Transferring is a real possibility and concern for many. Not everyone has daddy paying their tuition. At the end of 3 hard years of studying and 100k+ of debt, it is reasonable - if not abso*&^ing necessary to insure you get the best paying job in the area you study for.

Of course if you have no debt - this would never cross your mind.

152, 146 -- How many of those students at Pillsbury, Dechert, Sheppard, etc. wish they had taken the NYC V10 offer right about now? At least they'd have a job right now.

Maybe I'm not qualified to comment on this since I did not go to HLS, but I don't think they get special treatment when layoffs hit.

148 - its amazing how much your posts tell us about you.

First of all, you hate Harvard for some reason. Please tell us, why? It's OK, a lot of people hate Harvard.

Second of all, you either go to Chicago, went to Chicago, or love it for some other reason. Given the fact that you've never worked at a large firm (see below), I'm guessing you don't/didn't go to law school there. Did a loved one go there? Did you do your undergrad there?

Third, you've never worked at a large firm. Nobody at a large firm would put NYU a tier behind Columbia/Chicago, no matter what city they're in.

Real tiers:
T1: Yale
T2: Harvard, Stanford
T3: Columbia, NYU, Chicago
T4: MVPB
T5: Northwestern, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown
T6: Texas, UCLA to about 25
T7: doesn't really matter beyond this point, you'll have to finish in the top 10% + LR to get biglaw

Hey dudes, otherwise unemployable Loyola 3L hotties will be under the table for our Wednesday night dinner and game of "smiles"! I'm thinkin' this recession has a warm, wet, silvery lining! I'm gonna enjoy it. Last man to smile wins! Yeah!!!

157, who knows? Maybe they're happy they're not at Latham. Maybe they still prefer not to be in NYC. In any case, your post is a non sequitur.

- 146

the only people complaining about this are those who are THREATENED by the people in the top 10. basically they want the top 10 kids to transfer out quickly and easily, so that the top 20+ kids can get bumped up and wont feel intimidated. it is insecurity at its finest. pathetic. maybe you should spend your time studying rather than making loyola look bad on public websites. perhaps then a "BigLaw" firm will consider you. get a life.

You people are all idiots....the number 1 problem with law is that people still give a fuck about what school you went to. Maybe if you assclowns would worry about getting QUALIFIED lawyers to do the job instead of jizzing in your pants over paper tigers that come from "top tier" schools you wouldn't be getting laid off like a bunch of clowns you are. Lets face it, you get the same education anywhere you go. Actus reaus and mens rea don't change from institution to institution.

131, this post is for you.

First, thank you 131, your information is beyond helpful considering the rarity of transfer information. I certainly hope it is true. I also never expected to find transfer information here.

If you don't mind, can I ask what professors you asked for recommendations and which ones would you not recommend I ask?

I'm thinking about asking professors as well, but I fear asking professors who seem very loyal (and have worked at Loyola for a long time).

Moreover, how did you deal with Dean Gold? I've heard such great things about him as a professor, but obviously ran smack into horrible policy as well.

It what you are saying about the scare tactics from Dean Gold is true, then I find it very hypocritical of them. On one hand, they are threatening us with sanctions if we misstate an intent to stay. On the other hand, Dean Gold is deliberately giving us false information. Anyone who does his research will know that some schools will allow transfers to do OCI and law review. Also why would no professor down the road write a clerkship recommendation? Certainly Loyola professors (and Levenson I think heads the program) would not, but wouldn't professors at your new location do so?

I'm also curious as to where you ended up transferring as well. I know 10-15 students transfer out each year, and like 10 of them go to UCLA.

Regarding law review, you can still apply right? Obviously you can say you didn't decide to transfer until after grades came out. Moreover, unforeseen circumstances may obviously include getting into some awesome school to transfer to.

I also feel like if you don't end up transferring but have applied, do they also rescind the scholarship?

I know you can get back into Phase II if you stay, but is it possible to negotiate to still do Phase I?

Is it possible to negotiate your scholarship to get a full ride? I would definitely not considering at the school for less than 30K, and only the number 1 students gets full ride automatically. I am actually VERY disappointed to hear that the top 10% does not get full scholarships. Several resources, including 2 of my professors, have mentioned that those who do well get full rides. However, like you have said they never revealed these numbers. In fact, someone even asked the dean a question at the beginning of the year, she said "a substantial amount" but refused to specific further when asked if it would be a full ride (which is exactly your point).

I'm wondering, would the school still like you and care about you after you decide to stay? I feel like it certainly could be awkward, but then again you don't really interact much with the administration to begin with on a daily basis.

Your post has definitely set off my curiosity regarding transfers. I have not decided to transfer (the decision will come after grades).

All in all, I am glad I read the 130 posts that came before you 131. It was totally worth it. The information that you have shared is invaluable. In fact, I bet Loyola does not expect me to know some of this information so they get the upper hand.

I have so many questions because I am kind of in the same boat. I admit, I love the people here. The students are amazing. The professors are all great and helpful (even better than my undergrad). I am not considering transferring yet, especially since law review + OCI + these people + full ride is well worth the consideration. However, I also agree, I found the people in Founders a bit tough (perhaps they have to be). Some are friendly, don't get me wrong, but Loyola obviously never mentions some of these policies.

Once again, I thank you for your post. It's difficult to find Loyola transfers (obviously). I've also wondered why I could never figure who the smart people were, and it took awhile to realize that at least 5% (likely the top 5%) transfer out. I hope this bumps everyone up 5% for OCI, but if I end up doing well (but some stroke of luck), I feel like I would at least have to give transferring further thought.

131 -- what a goddamn nightmare. your stupid admins actually thorougly planned on how to best roadblock transfers and fuck with their heads.

Did Loyola forget that UC Irivne Law has already been taking apps?

157 -- What like L&W? NYC has been very hard hit by layoffs. Pull your head out of your ass.

1L transfers are a supremely disloyal set, and I think that firms should be weary of these people (they'll jump ship at first opportunity), but seems like the Dean of Loyola should be much more of an adult and treat the potential transferers with respect and try to convince them that they should stay (maybe backed up by financial incentives).

Props to 40. P.S., for all you T14 sociopaths that frequent this board, watch your back. I'm hunting you. First chance I get, I'm targeting T14s with ethics complaints. Some might call it leveling the playing field. I call it an appropriate response to blatant incompetence by T14 graduates. You may have been "book smart" when you had your parents paying rent, but in the real world, many of you remind me of the character from "I Am Sam."

Could be worse, the professors at my Tier 1 Law School wouldn't write me letters of recommendation because they don't "help students at other schools."

Of course all of them went to T10 law schools...

Elie - please stop posting stories about schools outside of the T50. Such stories are more appropriate for the free "Trading Post" newsletters next to the gumball machines at the local Piggly Wiggly.

"It's totally understandable for Loyola to want to service people who are happy to be at Loyola. But every student paying tuition should have equal access to the school's services."

I disagree. Unless you have a good reason for transferring (family crisis, marriage, etc..), transfers are scum. Better dealing the school screws the school and your classmates. There were several people in our class (top 25 law school) that transferred AFTER taking interviews/callbacks/jobs at our NY OCI program.

I wish they had more backbone and integrity....but they don't. This dean may be perfectly justified in chopping these people off at the knees.

That's an absolute fecking disgrace

144,

The intuition of most people is that Chicago doesn't "pad" its numbers when it reports to the USNWR, whereas Boalt and Columbia have both come under fire for doing so in the Volokh Conspiracy.

Penn has also been under fire for padding its acceptance numbers.

Chicago still gets more clerkships than anyone but Yale, and has the highest employment numbers with top law firms.

So, as a Chicago grad might say, the market is consistently placing Chicago above Boalt and Penn, so it makes sense to place it with Columbia/NYU.

What is it with the Catholic schools and underhandedness? Not very Christian-like. I know that DePaul waits until the last day that transfer applications are due at other schools to mail letters of good standing. Obviously, the letter of good standing isn't going to arrive at the other school on the same day. I guess one difference is that Loyola actually tries to keep students with scholarships while DePaul does not. Either way, thank you, Loyola, for giving me a reason for ranking you at the bottom of my survey. After the top 25 or so, I really don't have anything to base my rankings on. Now I do.

172, I assume that your school didn't accept transfers, then?

131: Wow. That's really, really bad. Has anybody reported these people to the ABA or the state bar? The OCI part is really bad, but you can do it on your own (though I think it's outrageous that a student would have to shoulder that cost/time merely for having the temerity to try to transfer). The other stuff, though - transcripts, professors refusing to write recommendations - is extremely shady. As 170 pointed out, I'd be pretty surprised if the same faculty members didn't enjoy the benefit of a top-tier education themselves. The Law Review strong-arming, though ultimately meaningless, is beyond the pale.

As for the threat of reporting you to the bar, give me a break. They are the ones who should be worried about being reported to the bar.

I have to chuckle at the article title. Going to a school outside of the T25 = poor services by definition. Why anyone would go to these schools which offer such a tiny chance of getting a real law job is beyond me.

Commentors on this blog constantly harp on the fact that if one is not lucky enough to be admitted to a T14 school, they might as well give up any hopes of being a lawyer and killself--doubly so in this shitty economy.
And now dipshits like172 call transfer students "disloyal." Give me a break. This profession--for better or worse--raises prestige whoreishness to a whole new level. Yes, transfers fucked up in some way--we didn't get the right LSAT, jerked around our freshman year of college, etc. But you are saying we should just lie down and accept that we are screwed employment-wise (and just forget about any hopes of teaching or clerking) out of some perverse sense of loyalty to our 1L school??? What a joke.
I loved my 1L school and I am still very close to many students and professors there. I got tons of support from the administration before and after I made the decision to leave. I have no regrets.
Everybody understands the reality of the legal market and the allocation of top-flight opportunities almost exclusively among T14 grads. Potential transfers: don't listen to jackasses like 172 or allow yourself to be guilt-tripped by your schools. This is PROFESSIONAL school. It is designed to further your career goals, and if it's not doing so and you have the opportunity to go elsewhere, then wtf would you stay? I know that sounds harsh, especially for the rah rah law school crowd, but in this economy, one can't really afford to be sentimental.

"Are Top Loyola Law Students Getting Poor Services?"

If education is a service, the title would apply to ALL Loyola students.

178 , because a solo personal injury attorney just made 5000 times more than you last year and went to LSU.

181 - and there's one guy who won the lottery last week and made a gazillion dollars!

Should have gotten a 163 and gotten into USC.

Should have gotten a 163 and gotten into USC.

174,

In 2000, it took a 3.3 GPA and a 167 to get into Chicago. The disparity between GPA and LSAT was to obtain a higher USNWR ranking. That is the definition of padding. I even received an "apply to Chicago for free" mailing. This was to increase applications numbers. Get over it. I didn't even apply. Got into NYU, Columbia, and Berkeley, all of which put Chicago to shame.

185, if memory serves, the Chicago free application offer was made in direct response to NYU pulling the same stunt in 1999. I had a few friends at Chicago at the time, and I remember them getting pissed that NYU was trying to game the system (it work-NYU jumped ahead of Chicago that year). In other news, who gives a f*ck about petty crap like rankings other than law students?

178 - likes Chilidogs

As a Loyola 3L, I have to say that I fully support this policy. First, I think it's important to realize that Loyola's curve is very tough, and the difference between an A and an A- can be as little as one multiple choice answer. This means that the difference between the top 5% and the top 20% is fairly small.

That's why it's so frustrating that someone who was lucky enough to get into the top 5% at Loyola could take advantage of our OCI, a scholarship to stay and consider transferring away. I have NO problem with Loyola telling these kids that transferring will have consequences. If someone is getting money to stay at Loyola, thus reducing debt and increasing incentive to stay, then the departure is mainly for prestige reasons. I don't see why Loyola should have to play nice with kids who don't think Loyola is good enough for them.

This brings me to my next point, why do the commentators feel the need to clown on Loyola. If you didn't go there, how do you know what the quality of education is? There are Loyola grads at almost ALL the top firms in California (even snobby Munger) and some Loyola grads, gasp, even get 9th Circuit clerkships. Of course at Loyola, these stories are the exception rather than the norm but I think it's indicative that Loyola can and does produce good lawyers with good educations.

Now I didn't go to a top law school so I don't understand the need to belittle lower rank law schools but I would think that if one was really secure and confident, it would be unnecessary. If you're really so much better than why is it necessary to point it out? The answer may be that many of you have nothing else going for you than your prestigious law school.

The kids at Loyola may have a rougher path to BigLaw success but it's not impossible. The transfer policy reflects the school's desire to ensure that those who stick with Loyola are rewarded, and thus who don't are screwed. I can't lie and say that I'm always happy with Loyola or my choice to stay there but I am very happy that Loyola is taking steps to ensure those who remain will have a little less rocky road to BigLaw success.

Adding to 185, Chicago also throws huge money at top prospects (NYU does too, but not quite as much). I turned down two years of free tuition at Chicago to go to HLS and I don't regret it one bit. The school is on a clear decline.

Dear idiot that keeps citing a 2005 survey to show that a Loyola grad has no chance of getting into a Big Law firm:

1. Six percent does not equal zero percent, so there IS a chance. In 2005, it was a 6 % chance.

2. Loyola grads also get clerkships that get them into BigLaw if they weren't already going there.

3. A LOT of Loyola grads have no interest in going into BigLaw. They want to be a DA or in entertainment or go to a plaintiff's firm or go to their dad's firm. This is reflected in the statistic that you're soooooo fond of!

4. Even if they can't get a BigLaw job, most Loyola girls are so attractive that they could easily get married to rich guys, never work a day in their lives and still have more money than a pathetic geek from HLS or YLS who slaves away at a boring BigLaw job.

By the way, to the person who posted about getting Loyola girls to come to Wednesday night dinners... sorry but I doubt that these girls want to hang out with nerdy, gross, low paid associates who probably work for their daddies.

Dear idiot that keeps citing a 2005 survey to show that a Loyola grad has no chance of getting into a Big Law firm:

1. Six percent does not equal zero percent, so there IS a chance. In 2005, it was a 6 % chance.

2. Loyola grads also get clerkships that get them into BigLaw if they weren't already going there.

3. A LOT of Loyola grads have no interest in going into BigLaw. They want to be a DA or in entertainment or go to a plaintiff's firm or go to their dad's firm. This is reflected in the statistic that you're soooooo fond of!

4. Even if they can't get a BigLaw job, most Loyola girls are so attractive that they could easily get married to rich guys, never work a day in their lives and still have more money than a pathetic geek from HLS or YLS who slaves away at a boring BigLaw job.

By the way, to the person who posted about getting Loyola girls to come to Wednesday night dinners... sorry but I doubt that these girls want to hang out with nerdy, gross, low paid associates who probably work for their daddies.

190/191-are you in high school? Who describes someone as "gross"? Go back to watching the Hills or something.

190-so, it's okay for Loyola grads to work for their dad's firm (see #3) but non-Loyola grads who do so are nerdy, gross and low-paid (see your final paragraph)? You are truly an asset to the Loyola student body.

Just because it's okay to work for your dad's firm doesn't mean it's okay to sleep with nerds at your dad's firm who are making low six figure salaries. Also, GROSS is a perfectly acceptable word when making comments on ATL.

WORK FOR = my dad pays your law firm... Your boss would do anything to make my dad happy so that he keeps paying the bills.

WORK FOR = my dad pays your law firm... Your boss would do anything to make my dad happy so that he keeps paying the bills.

Will the 2Ls already have paid their tuition by the time July OCI starts? If not, then hardly seems like Loyola is depriving these would-be transfers of anything to which they are entitled.

It doesn't seem that the people defending Loyola read the post. Loyola disallows ANYONE, who asks for their grades to be sent to another law school, from participating in OCI. This punishes people who toss an application to another school, but decide to stay at Loyola.

I know transfer admissions start in June and July, but there can't be that many students who are going to decide late after participating in OCI to actually leave.

From 190/191: "4. Even if they can't get a BigLaw job, most Loyola girls are so attractive that they could easily get married to rich guys, never work a day in their lives and still have more money than a pathetic geek from HLS or YLS who slaves away at a boring BigLaw job."

Good point! Why doesn't the Loyola admissions office crack out this argument more often when recruiting top candidates? "Do you want to be some gross geek at Harvard, or would you rather be an attractive woman at Loyola with a six percent—not zero percent, but six percent!—chance of BigLaw?"

You're not doing your school any favors with your posts here.

Both the article and some of the comments that have appeared in response reflect misconceptions about how law school and transferring work.

1. Your chances of getting a BigLaw job depend mostly on you, not on your school. If you have the qualities necessary to graduate in the top 10% of the class at Loyola, going to UCLA or Stanford will not necessarily increase your chances of getting a big firm job. (Among other things, you're likely to graduate lower down in the class at UCLA or Stanford.)

2. Loyola graduates do get BigLaw jobs. A 2002 study of the law schools that had supplied the largest number of partners to the five largest Los Angeles firms over the preceding 25 years found the following:

UCLA (36)
Harvard (34)
USC (34)
UC Berkeley (31)
Loyola (21)
Yale (16)
NYU (14)
Stanford (12)
Chicago (11)
Columbia (11)

This doesn't mean you should choose Loyola over Yale. But please note that UC Davis, UC Hastings, and Pepperdine didn't even crack the top 10, let alone the top 5.

3. The largest number of students who transfer out of Loyola transfer to UCLA. Students who transfer to UCLA are eligible to participate in UCLA's OCI. (Indeed, UCLA advertises that fact to get students to transfer.) Allowing them to participate in Loyola's OCI would give them two bites at the apple while depriving continuing Loyola students of any bites at the same apple. Conversely, Loyola allows incoming transfers to participate in its OCI.

4. BigLaw employers interview at Loyola for good reason. In 2008, The Princeton Review's survey of 17,000 students concluded that Loyola provided the best classroom experience of any law school in the United States. In a New York Times profile of the five top trial lawyers in the United States published several years ago, three of the five were graduates of Loyola. US News rankings provide some information about schools, but not necessarily the most relevant.

I am a current student at Loyola Law School, Los Angeles. I have no need for an OCI interview. All I ask for is a warm classroom and a decent meal.

My understanding, based on my experience and what professors have told me, is that Loyola students who finish their 1L year in the top 10 percent will almost certainly get BigLaw offers. These are the same students who are likely to transfer. Accordingly, if your ultimate goal is to work in BigLaw, transferring might not make sense, given that you get nearly a full scholarship (mine was about 2K short of full tuition for top five percent after first year) and you can get to the same place. On the other hand, if you want to clerk or teach, you are better off transferring to a higher ranked school.

That said, even if you want to work in BigLaw anyway, Loyola's administration should not try to coerce students into staying by barring their participation in 2L Fall OCI. If a student wants to leave purely for the sake of prestige, that should be his decision; he has no moral obligation to sacrifice his own goals for those of the institution or other students. Law schools are basically businesses, even if they are not taxed like businesses, so loyalty from a 1L should not be expected.

So if the student is right to pursue his own interest and the school is right to pursue its interest, why is it BS for the school to do this (assuming this policy does in fact serve Loyola's interest)? Because students go into law school with the reasonable expectation that they will be able to transfer to any school that accepts them without facing major obstacles or negative consequences. It is pretty sneaky for Loyola to hide the most significant part of its OCI email - that those who seek to transfer are barred from Fall OCI - in one of the last paragraphs, meanwhile only disclosing this fact after students are already in the midst of final exams (i.e., well after a student could choose to attend another school). In short, I would argue that an implied term of the contract between school and student is that the school will refrain from hampering a student's ability to transfer after first year. If Loyola wants to disclaim this "term," it should do so expressly and not hide its policies until it is too late for students to take a different course of action.

That said, my advice to current Loyola students would be to apply to transfer if you want to transfer, and if you are not accepted to the school you want to go to or decide to stay at Loyola for other reasons, you will almost certainly be able to participate in Fall OCI, despite what Loyola's official policy says. Loyola is not going to screw a student who is actually staying just to stick to the policy. That hurts its numbers and Loyola doesn't have too many students who can potentially get top jobs to begin with. From my experience, Loyola's policies are waived when the waiver serves the school's interests.

just so you all know, this was all the result of a female evening student in the top 30 % who is upset because she can't get a BigLaw job, who regardless of how hard she tries, cannot get good grades. idiot.

199 - I think THIS IS A GREAT POINT! If Loyola is recruiting a kid away from Harvard and Yale with a full ride, a 6% chance at a Big Law job, which is actually MUCH higher for someone eligible for such a large scholarship, and a chance to be around hot girls -- he'd be an idiot not to take it.

P.S. Your FACE is not doing YOUR school any favors.

190/191/204- please stop posting.

Love,

Every Other Loyola Student

lol @ 190/191

Are you kidding with that 6% isn't 0% stuff?

And PUHLEEZE re Loyola girls being hot. This is law school we're talking about here. Don't make someone post the facebook pdf.

This is a really unprofessional policy, and I'm amazed at the Loyola posters who support it. What is it to you if a few of your classmates leave?? Are you that jealous of their chance to go to a "better" school (I use quotes because it seems some of you don't believe in the concept). Reminds me of the story about crabs struggling to get out of a bucket -- once one gets to the top, the others pull it back in. If someone wants to leave, let them! Again, how does someone leaving affect you? Even if it's for something so "insignificant" as prestige? Perhaps you're not as happy w/ your school as you'd like us to believe.
I went to a mid teens school. We had a couple of people leave for Harvard and Yale -- good for them. It wasn't an insult to those of us who liked the place. More importantly, I don't think our school did a thing to stop them. The school then picked up a few transfers from lower ranked schools -- who likely paid full tuition, which = good for school. Loyola sounds like a jealous boyfriend who wants to screw up an ex's chance for future love....
Fact is, rank matters. At my firm, the grade cutoffs are linked to rank of the school. Top 5, we'll interview the top 40, next five, top 35, next 5, top third, etc. You get down to the lower tiers, better be in the top 5%, but even then.... I don't think this is a good policy, but you're an idiot if you don't recognize it.

The commentator who thinks firms will question the loyality of a transfer student are nuts. Loyalty is not a virture firms value, esp loyality to something as silly as a law school.

164, 131 here.

If you actually read the first 130 comments and then mine, then I assume that you are the tipster who lead to this news item in the first place. This I think is the best way to get Loyola to change their policies -- get everything out in the open so they have to account for their policies. Dean Gold has more or less inherited this policy, and who knows -- if enough light is thrown on it, maybe they'll change it.

As for the threats of sanctions or whatever, that's all they are -- threats. Do a Westlaw search on the good moral character requirement and see what comes up -- no one has ever not been admitted to the bar for a reason like this.

I would ask the profs of every class you did well in for a recommendation -- some will say no, and some will say yes after "counseling" you a bit. There is no harm in asking. If they say no, then you have more stuff to bring to the administration/ATL if you decide to challenge the policy later.

I know of at least one person who got deep into the transfer process, decided to stay, and was allowed to take part in OCI -- phase one AND phase two. If you DO decide to stay, you can write all your profs and say "all that advice you gave me changed my mind, I decided to stay" and all will probably be forgiven.

If you do decide to apply, apply to some "safeties" -- i.e. UCLA and USC. I honestly don't think transferring to either school makes sense, because the small benefit you'll get in prestige is outweighed by the costs of having to start over again at a new school. But apply just in case Loyola decides to play hardball.

202, it is not true that everyone in the top 10% gets offers. I know of several 2Ls in the top 10% who still do not have a job. If you are in the top 5, you will get multiple offers from the LA heavies -- but your options outside the LA area will be limited.

And 164, keep in mind that you really need to be in the top 5% to transfer to a top-tier school. Maybe you can get to UCLA or USC being in the top 10%.

I'm totally puzzled by those defending Loyola's policy -- it just seems totally indefensible to me. If the goal is to keep students from getting "two bites at the apple," then have a policy where you must promise to attend Loyola one or two weeks before OCI -- but don't trigger OCI exclusion through the ordering of your transcript. That's just wrong.

Thank you 131/208 (164 here)

First off, I am not the tipster. I haven't even decided to transfer and definitely would not confront the dean to incur his wrath for no reason.

I don't think this whole debate is puzzling. It is not a great policy, but won't affect the other 90%. Though, if you are at the bottom of your 3L class, obviously this policy doesn't affect you. If you are any other person, transfers BENEFIT you. If you transfer, that's great. If others transfer, you are bumped up 5%, which is also great.

I also don't think anyone is taking advantage of the school. Are there really people who are doing OCI at Loyola (unlikely) AND at their new school? I doubt this is possible.

I have checked out the yahoo transfers group out of curiosity. You are right. The top 5% is usually guaranteed to transfer at T2's (and thus top 10% is a gamble).

I am glad to hear that one student has tried to transfer but stayed and was allowed to interview for OCI. I wonder who he or she is now, since he or she is obviously a 2L walking around.

I think there might be a problem with enforcement. I wonder if they simply shut you out of symplicity. The thing is by the time you transfer, you have already submitted bids and you are waiting to hear back from firms. From what I remember when looking at the calender at the beginning of the year, OCI bidding phase I deadline was early July, like right before Independence Day. So if you apply for transfer then (which is cutting it close) or wait till then to ask the Dean, the firms have already received your resumes. They would have to call each firm and tell them the guy is not allowed to interfere (one of our top students) because he filed a transfer app (though might not transfer). That seems a bit extreme.

I understand if you apply to transfer before OCI, then they can just not send you an email to sign up or disable your account, but if you wait until after your resume is submitted, what happens? Obviously waiting has its own risks (you're cutting it close to the transfer deadline).

Allowing them to do OCI still does make sense. If you do end up staying, they should try to help you since now it benefits them. Imagine if the entire top 5% applied to transfer (those 13 ppl) but all decided to stay. Now, they don't get to interview, and now half of the top students don't have jobs, which would look terrible.

(continued from 209)

I also can't imagine a professor saying no to a transfer. If you know the professor, did well in his class, participated, and got along, it would be a douchebag thing to do to just say no simply because the school do not encourage transfers.

I can see some of the older professors who have been with the school do this, but even still, the professors at Loyola are spectacular and I can't imagine any of my professors just outright rejecting me (or even other students).

208, 202 here. My comment relates to "my experience." I should have noted that I did fall OCI four years ago, when the job market was much better than it is now. At that time, everyone in the top 10 percent got a BigLaw job.

208, 202 here. My comment relates to "my experience." I should have noted that I did fall OCI four years ago, when the job market was much better than it is now. At that time, everyone in the top 10 percent got a BigLaw job.

208, 202 here. My comment relates to "my experience." I should have noted that I did fall OCI four years ago, when the job market was much better than it is now. At that time, everyone in the top 10 percent got a BigLaw job.

What is with all the Loyola bashing? Let me say one thing about LLS - our students have better things to do than to get on ATL and insult all the schools ranked lower than us. If everyone who is insulting LLS are from top schools, shouldn't you be too busy earning all your big money from your top jobs to troll ATL?

For the record, we're the 3rd best school in LA, and yes, Pepperdine's rank has climbed (although it was far lower than Loyola at the time I applied), but we're still probably the 3rd best school overall in Southern California (until UCI opens its doors). As for those who think LLS students are all losers with bad grades/low LSATs, someone above posted you can get into Chicago with a 3.3 and a 167. Guess I could have gotten into Chicago, but you can't get into UCLA or USC with those numbers - I know because I tried. If you don't want to leave the LA area, LLS is your best choice outside of those schools. I only applied to CA schools, and decided I didn't want to move up north when I was accepted into both Hastings and Davis. I'm very happy with my decision to go to Loyola, because the classroom environment was great, the students weren't overly spiteful or competitive, and we had some fantastic professors. My only big complaint is career services, because they don't know how to get anyone jobs outside of the big firms they bring to OCI. (Yes, I know of many classmates at biglaw firms.)

And guess what? Our latest bar passage rates were 87%, while Hastings had 81% and Davis 80%. Even Whitter had 84%. I'm not going to pretend to compare LLS to top 20 schools, and bar passage rates don't mean that much, but it is evidence that we can hold our own against top 50 schools.

Maybe a lot of people went to law school so they could get a biglaw job and sell their soul to their firm 100 hours a week. But I went into law because I love the law and the litigation process. I want to work in a small to mid size civil litigation firm, maybe going into private practice down the line. Loyola has provided me with the education I need to do just that. If you chose a different path, that's fine, more power to you.

214, you're playing into their hand.

i hate to admit it, but i'm an LLS grad myself. and you know why i hate to admit it? b/c the 200 other posters on this blog. yes, i play into their hands too. there's no winning here.

the fact is, law school bigotry is seriously lame. i mean, people can't openly pick on racial minorities, think that a woman should get paid less for the same work done by a man, or call someone "gay" or "retarded" when they do something dumb, because it's a political faux pas. but these are the same types of people. no, no, i'm saying all those ivy-league badasses are plantation owning, mysoginistic, homophobes. i'm saying they're all people that are prepared to judge people, and rally amongst each other like freshman frat boys around a keg, on things that are really not deserving of so much hatred and spite. and for what? to make us feel bad about ourselves? to make themselves feel better? doesn't matter. take a lesson from the playground and forget about it b/c it's just mean-spirited.

my advice to you loyolans craving biglaw experiences is to deal with it. don't attempt to justify this nonsense by defending a school that is in fact ranked lower by us news b/c you can never give these people a good enough reason to stop bashing.

what you should do is open your eyes, ese. if you go to loyola, you know you'll deal with these pr*cks. you know your chances of landing a summer job at biglaw through OCI and after graduation are much harder. so take a lesson from someone that's been there. be wise about your choices. when everyone else is slacking 2L and 3L year, keep at it. rise in the ranks. get those district court externships and turn them into district court clerkships. leverage the public sector benefits of going to loyola (like the da program, which many laid off attorneys are now clamoring over). b/c even when i meet a loyolan who didn't do everything they could have (i.e., slacked in school in school and extracir activities and graduated with poor grades (i.e., beneath 15%)), but still complains that they can't get a biglaw job paying $160k, i want to tell them to STFU. wake up. you gotta make the most of the cards your dealt with.

215,

If it makes you feel any better, I'm an HLS 3L who couldn't care less about what schools my coworkers attend or attended. I assume that everyone my firm hired is smart enough to be there, and letting law school prejudices influence your impression of people is a great way to make an ass of yourself by paying your colleagues too little (or too much) deference. Law firms are business that hire people based on perceived ability; they most certainly are not charities seeking students from a wide range of schools. I wouldn't be surprised if the students at my firm from very low-ranked schools are generally smarter and harder working than the average HLS student. Not to say that HLS isn't teeming with brilliant minds, but we generally don't have to prove ourselves to law firms in the same way that students from bottom-ranked schools do. The rare student who is hired from a school with an exceptionally poor reputation (it's probably not fair to described Loyola this way, but bear with me) must really be somebody special.

216 here. Just to clarify, when I say "we," I mean "we HLS students" not "we brilliant minds." This school hasn't increased my sense of self-reverence to quite that extent yet.

216-217, yeah, i would generally agree with you. there's a lot of proving yourself that us T2 kids have to do. and i'm glad you don't give a hoot where your colleagues went to school. it's just silly and brings us and the entire profession all down. - 215

I am a Loyola grad and I have worked at a big firm and a mid-size firm, with people who went to regional third-tier schools (albeit, top of their classes) and every T10 school. Some (but not all) top ranked students at lower ranked schools are smarter and better lawyers than students ranked in the top third at T10 schools.

Though not meaningless, the importance of law school rankings is grossly overstated if one is trying to assess the quality of lawyers who graduated from those schools. There are a few reasons for this.

(1) The LSAT is a poor indicator of how good of a lawyer one will be (or even how one will perform in law school). USNWR has had much too big an impact on law schools' admissions processes, and the weight the USNWR ranking system gives to the LSAT score forces schools to give undue consideration to the LSAT. (2) Affirmative action policies. (3) Some people do shitty in college because they are too busy having fun. Thus, they don't get into a top school because of a low college GPA. This doesn't mean they won't be good lawyers. (4) Some top students go to a lower ranked school for scholarship money. (5) Real lawyering requires a lot of skills not tested in law school (good people skills, e.g.). (6) Higher ranked law schools don't necessarily have *better* law professors, depending on how one defines "better." But I would argue that the better professor is the one who is most effective at communicating material to a student in a way that will make him understand and remember it, not necessarily the one who publishes the most law review articles in the most prestigious journals.

These are all vague statements, and are not intended to imply that students at top ranked schools will not, on average, be better lawyers than lawyers coming out of a much lower-ranked school, on average. My point is only that the relevance of one's law school to his lawyering abilities is not as great as many people on this site would like to believe (or would like others to believe).

All you "Tier 1" snobs make me laugh. I've never read any of these gossip columns before, but I heard about this one and had to chime in.
As surprising as it may seem, I could have gone to about any law school I wanted, but I chose Loyola because I have a job and I needed an evening program in Los Angeles. Unfortunately for me, Daddy doesn't pay my bills, nor did he have enough money to pay for college or private school.
But lucky for me, Loyola costs me nothing!! That's right--full scholarship!! So while all you "Tier 1" snobs are struggling to pay back $100k or more, I'll be working at the same firm laughing my ass off. And if you need help writing a complaint or something useful, you can ask me. I'll be sure to come to you if I need to know how the rule against perpetuities works.

How's your grades so far O.o, it is nice to not pay debt and of course there are always people who choose to go to a lower ranking school with money.

Obviously they are the "same person" at a lower school, and thus that is not indicative of their potential at all, but people may perceive them differently, and thus their employment prospects are obviously different. It may be a better long term investment (theoretically) to go to a higher ranked school, but in the short term, a full ride looks great I admit.

The only two summer associates that didn't get offers at Latham LA this summer were from (1) Harvard and (2) Columbia. However, the 4 summer associates from Loyola (not to mention the two summer associates who transferred from Loyola to UCLA) all got permanent offers of employment. I hope that students from “tier 1” law schools continue feeling entitled to Big Law jobs. I love having senior associates and partners comparing my work to those of you in the bottom 1/3 from top 5 law schools. What can I say; my personal job security is enhanced by your presence. Thank you for failing to learn how to write, research or cite over the last three years. It was a job well done.

The only two summer associates that didn't get offers at Latham LA this summer were from (1) Harvard and (2) Columbia. However, the 4 summer associates from Loyola (not to mention the two summer associates who transferred from Loyola to UCLA) all got permanent offers of employment. I hope that students from “tier 1” law schools continue feeling entitled to Big Law jobs. I love having senior associates and partners comparing my work to those of you in the bottom 1/3 from top 5 law schools. What can I say; my personal job security is enhanced by your presence. Thank you for failing to learn how to write, research or cite over the last three years. It was a job well done.

The only two summer associates that didn't get offers at Latham LA this summer were from (1) Harvard and (2) Columbia. However, the 4 summer associates from Loyola (not to mention the two summer associates who transferred from Loyola to UCLA) all got permanent offers of employment. I hope that students from “tier 1” law schools continue feeling entitled to Big Law jobs. I love having senior associates and partners comparing my work to those of you in the bottom 1/3 from top 5 law schools. What can I say; my personal job security is enhanced by your presence. Thank you for failing to learn how to write, research or cite over the last three years. It was a job well done.

It surprises me that individuals from “better” schools spend their time ridiculing Loyola (or any school for that matter). I bet my Loyola JD (and BIGLAW job) that these individuals are not the “better” students at those schools. Trust me, these idiots false sense of entitlement will be gone the moment they step foot into ANY law office.

It surprises me that individuals from “better” schools spend their time ridiculing Loyola (or any school for that matter). I bet my Loyola JD (and BIGLAW job) that these individuals are not the “better” students at those schools. Trust me, these idiots false sense of entitlement will be gone the moment they step foot into ANY law office.

I think that everyone on these blogs are pathetic and extremely arrogent. I went to a regional school (tier 3) because I got a full ride. I went to this school because it is located in a the Twin Cities, which is where I grew up is where I plan to spend my of entire career. Even in this down economy I have plenty of job prospects, although admittedly I was not hired on after a summer associate position due to the economy. To all those who view non-top tier law students with distain, I truly believe that you have a very warped opinion regarding the quality of the potential lawyer at these schools because people choose law schools for reasons other then their ranking. I say this only because a student at a non-top tier law school can become very discouraged when reading these posts, and while some of it contains some truth, a tier 3 law student is by no means destined for a life of low paying jobs and career dissatifaction.

This move is guaranteed to drive away strong applicants who (have the numbers to) think they will finish near the top of the class.

I'm in my second year at Loyola and unfortunately, my experience with the administrations policies has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I know many loyola alums who feel the same way and pledge to never give a dime to Loyola. The school has great faculty, pretty cool students, it's a nice campus, but the administration doesn't care about the students and is only looking after it's own interest. Dean Yamamoto, the dean of student affairs, is unlikable, to say the least. If you are considering Loyola, and you believe in customer service (after all, students are paying customers) than know that you won't get any at Loyola. Loyola's treatment of Students is unethical, I would elaborate, but there are pending suits which I cannot disclose.

I'm in my second year at Loyola and unfortunately, my experience with the administrations policies has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I know many loyola alums who feel the same way and pledge to never give a dime to Loyola. The school has great faculty, pretty cool students, it's a nice campus, but the administration doesn't care about the students and is only looking after it's own interest. Dean Yamamoto, the dean of student affairs, is unlikable, to say the least. If you are considering Loyola, and you believe in customer service (after all, students are paying customers) than know that you won't get any at Loyola. Loyola's treatment of Students is unethical, I would elaborate, but there are pending suits which I cannot disclose.