The flying hamster of doom rains coconuts down on your pitiful city.

And Covington remains the last firm standing

A firm that's notably absent from this list of shame: CADWALADER. Start date: October 5, 2009.

Now that GDC has shortened summer does anyone know what their plans are for incoming 3Ls?

CravaTTTh - the might have fallen. What's the word on SullCrom?

Could you guys compile a list of firms that are deferring start dates or offering 1 year public interest fellowships?

can you confirm that some of these firms didn't already offer later start dates in previous years? i know that many firms have 2-3 start dates anyway (i.e. cleary) even in a good economy. also, october isn't really late. i think that 2 months after the bar exam is pretty standard at a lot of firms.

1L here. I'm expecting a 2015 start date.

nervous T-10 1L here:

well, i've given up on finding my password. :(

elie - you should do a post on how to be a good summer associate. i don't want to get no-offered. i had a dream about it last night and i woke up crying.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Have fun in the Peace Corps, '09!

*gives 'GULC median guy' a chest bump in solidarity*

*secretly happy that my school is ranked higher than his*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Add Troutman Sanders to the list of Jan 2010 start dates.

why is everybody so focused on cravath? they really aren't any different than any other firm, and they've proven to be one of the most poorly managed and positioned in this downturn.

wachtell, on the other hand, is quite different.

S&C is October 5 for all offices.

So I assume Cravath got like 50 e-mails begging for October within 60 seconds after sending this out? This is worse than being a summer associate and trying to respond to those "we got two yankees tickets, anyone want them?" blackberry blasts

A brilliant way for Cravath to figure out which of its associates are worthy and which are not. Associates that do not 1) ask for the earliest start date and 2) ask for it enthusiastically are clearly going to be on the "up and out" track.

"why is everybody so focused on cravath?"

Where Cravath goes, the rest of the New York firms (among others) follow.

I like things in my bottom.

*Wonders if it will improve my chances of getting an offer if I get on my knees for a partner*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

13 - Is Troutman Atlanta starting January 2010?

Please listen to this advice, firms, and tell us our start dates. I've been anxiously waiting for mine for too long now.

I need to give notice to get out of my lease by April 1st (60 days notice) if my start date isn't at least October (then I'll just sublet over the summer instead, since I won't be able to afford to stay in NYC).

I really want to stay in my apartment, but I'll be forced to end my lease regardless just in case if I don't get a start date soon. As happy as I'll be if the start date ends up being early, I'll be really frustrated if they tell me that after I've already agreed to leave my place.

Anything new at Nixon Peabody?

What's a "Cravath"?

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

What's a "Cravath"?

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

20 - From what I have heard all Troutman Offices will be starting Jan 2010 - DC, Richmond, NY, and I believe ATL as well.

Has Sidley announced start dates yet?

The ship be sinking...

Where's partner emeritus on this? I would like to get his opinion on this important matter. He's like an old reliable steam locomotive in a time of diesel trains.

oh man...now people like 19 and 24 are impersonating me. elie, can you send me my password please? you know my email address.

*looks at elie with puppy dog eyes*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Conveniently Shearman is flying under the radar here, already having pushed back their start dates to November 2009... 5 months ago!!

Come on, don't leave the S&S faithful hanging ATL! Give them the crap press they deserve.

Pillsbury did the October/November/January thing with the first years they just fired. So good luck Cravath 3Ls! It's never good to follow in the footsteps of the Doughboy.

Someone has to know something about GDC start dates...

25 (and 20) - yes.

in other news, grumblings in K&S in atlanta are directed to adjustment of pay scales. any word on any firms taht are going to follow MGs lead?

33 - what adjustment? K&S associates take a pay cut?

Don't forget Orrick. Delayed until Jan/March 2010. Plus the 1 year deferral option.

19 is a dirty fake.

*Knows that it won't improve my chances but knows I won't be able to help myelf. -slurp- -slurp-*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

nervous T-10 1L: Don't worry about summer associate tips. Given your obnoxious personality, you're all but assured a no offer from anyone that spends more than 5 minutes with you.

19 - Leave that to the true professionals, please.

How does this affect current judicial clerks who will technically be coming in as second-years?

The most ignorant comment I have ever seen by commenter #1. 2001 was WAY better than 2010.

Latham's 'start date' will be rendered immaterial if their end date occurs when I believe it will - next Friday.

Sidley (Chicago) announced 2 start dates in September. I'm not sure if it's first come first serve.

All these other guys are fakes! Send me my password you fat fuck!

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Agree with 21, firms need to let us know ASAP so that we can deal with living situations. I'm not moving to NYC in September if my start date is going to be a month, two months, 4 months, or worse, 11 months away.

What are the chances that a firm would set their start dates now only to push them back again at a later point this spring/summer?

44, isn't it way too early to begin looking for housing anyway? When I lived there, way back when, you basically didn't look for housing until about a month before you wanted to move (if you are renting that is).

26/42 -- Sidley also announced mid-September and mid-October start dates for incoming clerks. Surprisingly, they also promised the full clerkship bonus (this was weeks ago). Sidley has historically been a fiscally conservative firm with very little debt. Given the bloated size of their summer associate classes in 2007 and 2008, it's kind of shocking to see that things are business as usual for incoming associates in this climate. Which leads me to believe they're planning to recoup costs in some other manner. Could Sidley be the first V15 firm to announce across-the board salary cuts?

dont stoke our fears, 45. c'mon on. i bet that Kash will pose your question at the top of a post by the end of the week to gin up hits.

I am the NEW nervous 1L. I'm not even in the T10. And I have about 5,500 classmates with better GPAs.

WTF is the deal with "T14"? Nothing else in the world is distinguised by the top 14. Elite law schools are those in the top 10 like anything else. I propose replacing "T14" with "T10"... "T14" is sad. Get over it 11-14 you are just average law schools and "T14" sounds pitiful.

-T10

Good Question 45, that's what I'm worried about as well. Do we have any kind of assurance that firms will stick to the start dates they announce now?

34- adjustment for first years it seems for now. I have not heard anything about pay cuts.

There will be a reality show atmosphere in so many firms this summer as nervous 2Ls compete for the few offers that will be forthcoming by trying to get work from first year associates who are fighting to not be laid off. Good times!

43- shut up

*distinguished

45 -- there is no chance of that. Take a long vacation in the fall and plan to start as scheduled.

41 could not be more wrong about Latham dissolving next Friday - I've heard it's this Friday.

Are any of these firms increasing the stipend? My firm offers a 13K "bar stipend." In a typical year that is intended to cover living expenses from May-Sept. This year, however, it is going to have to cover living expenses from May-Jan. unless the firm steps up and increases the stipend.

Oh, and by the way, student loan payments start before the delayed start date. So not only does the 13K have to cover living expenses for twice as long, it also has to cover almost two months worth of student loan payments.

58, you can use the money you "earned" by working hard last summer to cover your living expenses.

As the official spokesman for the White Shoe Silk Stocking Law Firms, I have been authorized to give the following statement to Above the Law:

Please stop whining about the start dates and be thankful that you still have a job waiting for you. In case you had not noticed, there is a world-wide recession and WE ARE BROKE!

Just finished coffee with a rainmaker with a top Chicago firm who agrees that 1Ls will probably be starting a couple years late and at lowered salaries. Yeah!

1L whose scholarship is too low for this sh*t.

Any word on Kirkland start dates?

Why does ATL have to be such a CSM hater, to the point of blatantly misrepresenting the facts? For example, if Kashmir had simply added the next sentence in the cited AmLaw article, things would look a LOT different:

"But the slow responders are not completely out of luck: If your date of choice is "oversubscribed," the firm will create a new start date set for one week after your original start date, a Cravath spokeswoman says."

OMG!!! ONE WEEK!!! OMG!!! WOW. What a pushback!

HTH,
--Anonymous willing to trade CSM for being a dinged 3L.

Sidley NY start dates: choice of Sept 14 or October 5.

so far weve heard nothing to suggest anything other than that. very nervous.

GDC has traditionally had staggered start dates anyway. So my guess is they may just have everyone start in November. But who knows. It seems like they are being very methodical about decisions like this so I wouldn't expect news anytime soon.

What is this? Will we get to lunchtime before another wave of layoffs? That would be awesome.

Can anyone speculate on the chances of a job actually being there in Jan. 2010 or beyond, if a firm delays start dates?

65: methodical my a**. They sent summers a letter three weeks ago confirming 12 weeks and just changed it.

47,

If anything I would't say a pay cut. What you might see is a continuation of the pay freeze and a lower 1st year salary.

This would basically reset the scale to $145k, so viewed that way it is a paycut, but with the one year pay freeze, wouldn't actually reduce the size of anyone's checks (they'd just continue to get their same size checks for longer).

When I graduated a couple years ago, a lot of new associates started in October or November, it was no big deal. Starting in 2010 on the other hand, is a pain. I feel bad for people who are going to have to take out high interest loans, max out their credit cards, live with their parents, etc. while they are jobless.

I am Spartacus.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

"Fingerblast"

I love lamp.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

And Covington is the last firm standing...

70--." I feel bad for people who are going to have to take out high interest loans, max out their credit cards, live with their parents, etc. while they are jobless." However, I am talking about all of the associates and staff who have been laid off--not someone who has a job, but with a delayed start date!

47, Sidley drastically cut the size of its SA class this year. In Chicago it's only 40. They planned ahead. And yes, they're sitting pretty b/c they have very little (maybe no?) debt. SO glad that's where I'm headed. They're still allowing a 14 week summer, too.

ropes sep. 21st?

Word is that Milbank will defer for a year (until October 2010).

I feel bad for all of the Paul Hastings female associates who have been thrown down the stairs onto coat hangers. There is nothing prestigious about that.

76- didn't one of these craptastic firms that recently bragged about having "no debt" just have huge layoffs?

"And firms, if you plan to push back start dates for incoming associates, bite the bullet and do it."

What does this even mean? If you are going to do something then do it?

I wish Nervous T-10 was the suicidal guy. Two birds one stone.

Sidley NY also cut down - our 2008 summer class was under 50, and i think its significantly less this year.

They also took a bunch of 2008 1Ls who will be trying other firms this summer- so theres only 35 incoming first years at sidley NY. compare that to the 100+ coming into white and case, davis, latham, cravath, sullivan, etc. etc.

64- id relax. you will probably start in sept. sidley has no debt, they actually saw their numbers increase last year financially, the DC and Chi offices are relatively busy (as is NY litigation, bankruptcy, hedge funds, regulatory etc...)

just hope the economy turns around soon after you start bec theres only so long any firm- let alone one as big as sidley- can sustain in this economic climate.

lets get real. no early to mid october start date is pushed back. especially if your firm traditionally works that way.

76 -- Glad to hear about the smaller summer class this year. My concern is that they intended to cut back last summer, but ended up with 100 kids again because of an unexpectedly high yield rate.

30

Shearman is December, not November.

Is it true Cravath has 120 this summer? Didn't they learn their lesson last year w/ 160?

Will Cravath associates receive a full year's worth of prestige points? Or will those be prorated as well?

QUINN REMAINS on schedule

A message from the ATL-reading Conjoined Twins:

Abigail: “All of this suicide talk in the ATL comments is bumming me out. Do these law students and laid off associates even realize how well they have it in life?”
Brittany: “Jesus Christ, will you get a life and stop reading ATL all day? I got real work to do here. I’m tired of your unemployed ass mooching off of my hard work 24/7.”
Abigail: “Gee. I wonder, if one of us ever decides to ‘eat a gun,’ what would happen to the other one?”
Brittany: “That’s a good question. You give it a try first and I’ll be sure to take notes on what happens.”

A message from the ATL-reading Conjoined Twins:

Abigail: “All of this suicide talk in the ATL comments is bumming me out. Do these law students and laid off associates even realize how well they have it in life?”
Brittany: “Jesus Christ, will you get a life and stop reading ATL all day? I got real work to do here. I’m tired of your unemployed ass mooching off of my hard work 24/7.”
Abigail: “Gee. I wonder, if one of us ever decides to ‘eat a gun,’ what would happen to the other one?”
Brittany: “That’s a good question. You give it a try first and I’ll be sure to take notes on what happens.”

couple of guys in my high school had late start dates. it was no big deal.

No word from Kirkland. Recruiting tells us we will receive information "shortly". I call BS on the "tipster" that said start dates were pushed back until December 2009, although it wouldn't surprise me.

WTF is the deal with "T14"? Nothing else in the world is distinguised by the top 14. Elite law schools are those in the top 10 like anything else. I propose replacing "T14" with "T10"... "T14" is sad. Get over it 11-14 you are just average law schools and "T14" sounds pitiful.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Will pushing back start dates really save anyone's job? Do firms think three months will change the entire economic outlook?

Where is Partner Emeritus? He's a badass.

87-- Cravath has stated repeatedly that it wants to expand... They don't take laterals... so they have to expand from within (i.e. first years).. They are obviously willing (and able) to take the short term hit to financials that this is going to take (their PPP is even still so high that they can take higher costs), to have long term growth when the market picks back up. In the past, the firm has had to turn away work because of capacity. Cravath has the name to grow, and with the ability to accept more work via more associates and partners, they will.

94-- It is because there is really only such thing as a T-5 -- Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, and NYU. and then the rest of the top 10 (6-10) rotates between a group of around 5-10 other schools (Michigan, Chicago, Penn, UCLA, etc.)... so that's why the T-14.

50/94, the real breaks are top 3, top 5 and the rest. I went to HLS and personally have absolutely no idea what the alleged # 6-10 (or 11-14) schools are. I imagine Chicago's up there. Otherwise, it's a few safety schools and a bunch of schools I never even considered because not going to law school at all would have been a better use of my time.

96, UCLA's not actually a "top 10" (or 14) school, is it? Absurd.

-97

67- most firms think that the market is going to pick back up beginning in 4th quarter of this year, and especially in the beginning of next year. Thus, they aren't delaying start dates to "cut costs" in the traditional sense or cut costs to save associate jobs now, but to defray useless costs of having a huge group of associates coming in when they aren't yet needed, thus to save the associate jobs in the future. Firms that have decided to defer for a few months are making an intelligent decision, and if I were going to any of those firms I would be relatively secure about my job. A few months here and there is a minor inconvenience for more job security.
However, firms deferring for a year--- they dont want you. look elsewhere. Same goes for the 2L's who are likely to be deferred the next year when this year's deferrals start.

I have a hard time believing HLS grads know what schools are numbers 4 and 5.

Skadden dates? Summer program status update?

AHH!! my mistkae 97/98-- I meant Boalt..

HLS-ers also dont care about Yale (too small) or Stanford (too small AND too west coast). Which is in general a douchey way to think... but they do have a point on the name recognition.

99--You a mind reader? You know what "most firms" think...

No i'm not a mind reader you douche... sorry you cant grasp generalizations... but ask around. top people at the top firms do see a pick up in Q4 09, with a bigger pick up in 2010..

103, are you suggesting that HLS-ers believe that they have no peer schools?

QUINN REMAINS SECOND TIER.

Weil pushed their start dates back 1 month to mid October from the usual mid September

96—Judge Halverson has stated repeatedly that she wants to expand... She won’t take implants... so she has to expand from within (i.e. eating).. She is obviously willing (and able) to take the short term hit to financials that this is going to take (her grocery bill is still so low that she can take higher costs), to have long term growth when her hunger picks back up. In the past, Judge Halverson has had to turn away food because of capacity. Judge Halverson has the name to grow, and with the ability to accept more calories via more food and drink, she will.

106, I'm not saying that, because obviously Yale, Stanfod, Columbia, and NYU are its peers I would say, but each school has its pro's and con's, and I think HLSers think their main pro is the international name recognition, which is hard to argue against.

101: Skadden start dates are 9/14, 9/29, 10/12, and 10/26.

Skadden summers are up to 13 weeks still, with four start dates throughout May and beginning of June.

No change. All is well.

109- you just made my day.
--96

111- proof? is that true of all offices?
I heard Skadden NY's first start date is 10/12.

105--It must be nice to be so well connected. You must know people at the top on Wall Street and at the Fed, too. Obviously, if law business is boing to be picking up the economy must be rebounding then, too. On your stellar words, I know when to invest again.

114, it must be nice to be an asshole.

96 -- Strongly disagree with your assessment. By almost any objective metric, UoC comes closer to being lumped in with YHS than any of the rest. For example, UoC is consistently the only non-YHS school to send 10% or more of its students to COA clerkships every year.

Why the hell is Cravath being mentioned in this. They have THREE start dates, two of which are safely in 2009. One of which is in January. The rest of the article, should that asshole Kashmere wanted to include it, goes on to say that oversubscribed dates will receive a separate start date one week after their requested on. So what if they aren't having a September start date? They have a huge incoming class! Spacing them out just makes economic sense, and has nothing to do with being in trouble like other firms who are deferring for a year or having almost everyone start in 2010.

Easy 98. Some of us who were admitted to T3 schools passed them up for a free ride at a T10. I have the same V5 job as you, and almost no debt. Who do you think made the wiser choice?

116 we can haggle all we want about who we think is tippy top... my main point was just to the kid who talked about why there was a T-14... and the reason is that beyond a certain number of schools (apparently we agree on the top 3), the rest of the top 10 is a toss up between like 10 other schools.

I don't know 118. It depends on what you value. I turned down large money at NYU and Chicago and don't regret it one bit. Yes, we have the same job and I have some remaining debt, but I valued my educational experience as more than a ticket to a job. The debt will be gone soon enough.

-97/98

119, is it really reliably limited 14 (and not 15) schools that vie for the 10 spots? I agree with the original poster that capping at a non-round # like 14 looks arbitrary and ridiculous (even if it isn't totally arbitrary).

I call bullshit on 78. Milbank hasn't even frozen salaries and now it's going to defer for a whole year?

Don't really have an answer for you 121... but it came to be known the T-14 for a reason. Even if the reason was arbitrary.
But it does seem that Boalt, Chicago, UPenn, Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, Cornell, Duke, and Georgetown have pretty much a rotating lockdown on T6-T10, with some obviously more consistently in the top 10 than others.

whatever helps you sleep at night, 122. I would keep your phone on hand and wait for the call....

Milbank is deferring until early January, 2010. Confirmed.

-incoming 3L

125 - when and how did you hear this?

119 -- I still disagree. There is a clear advantage to going to UoC or Columbia over Northwestern or Penn. Although all of these schools send some of their students to V5 or V10 firms, it is noticeably easier for students at UoC and Columbia (they also have much better clerkship chances). But yes, YHS are in a class by themselves, with everyone else on the outside looking in to a certain extent.

Of course, the biggest discrepancy is the gap between the top 15 or so schools and all the rest. At least everyone in the top schools knows they're getting a job SOMEWHERE. Once you get into the 20's, I think students at some schools can't take that for granted -- much less V5 or V10.

To everyone wondering about the "arbitrary" T14 classification:

The same 14 schools have been in the top 14 slots since USNWR started their rankings decades ago. There has been slight movement up and down within the top 14, but no school ranked lower than 14 has ever jumped into the top 14, and no school ranked higher than 14 has ever fallen out.

Also, these are the only 14 schools with widely acknowledged national reputations. The schools that have historically fluctuated between 15 and 20 don't have the same national appeal, for whatever reason.

also a milbank headed 3l and heard nothing

Could you please put that dealbreaker ad down? IT'S SO ANNOYING

I gave a speech only this morning to my staff assuring them that there would not be cutbacks at this branch and there certainly wouldn't be redundancies, so...

33/34 -- K&S has not announced any changes to salary for associates. In Atlanta, there was no freeze and bonuses were paid in full (some pretty big cash for some). If you have credible information regarding a change, please speak up. Otherwise, stop trolling.

Has anyone else heard from milbank? or is the rumor complete BS?

Offiical. Sidley just bumped back all start dates to early or mid November.

Incoming associate from sidley here. i have heard nothing new. are you full of shit 134?

I would like to firm the above. Sidley pushed all incoming associate start date into early and mid Nov.

I wonder what Loyola 2L is doing right about now?

LOYOLA 2L, WHATEVER BECAME OF YOU?!

#135, check your email. Words are it just went out moments ago.

134 here, yeah the email went out around 530.

i just wonder if sidley really needs to do this or if they are jumping on the bandwagon- why not save a little money?

that said, nov 2 and nov 16 is not too bad considering what everyone else is going through (most of white/case, cravath, mofo, reed smith, morgan lewis etc.)

Fuck. Now every firm will delay start dates like lemmings.

Considering that both Sidley's profit and revenue registered healthy gain last year, this delay start looks pretty bad on them.

Sidley delayed because the Cravath policy gave them the cover to do so. Why wouldn't a firm want to save a few hundred grand?

Every firm will follow suit by the end of the week. Nobody will be starting on time.

why WOULDN'T Sidley do this? You don't think most firms are planning to? Keep dreaming. At least Sidley isn't putting the new associates off too much longer than originally planned (ie-2010). Wait and see how many firms are going to play that nice

You people are retarded for blaming Cravath for anything. FIRST of all, Cravath's start dates are OCTOBER, NOVEMBER, and one in January... so they are not too delayed (not nearly as anyone else). And why does your firm have to follow everything Cravath does? Maybe you should have gripes with your firm being pussy than with Cravath doing what it thinks it needs to do to stay ahead of the game.

Hey 14--- how is Cravath poorly positioned in the downturn. Yeah they took a big hit to PPP, but how can you say any firm that takes a 25% hit to PPP and STILL has 2.5 million (more than all but a very few firms) is badly positioned?
p.s. Wachtell hasnt released yet... ODD.. very ODD.. what do they have to hide?

141--You are missing a very important point. Firms have to make management decisions projecting forward. It makes no difference what last year"s profits were if next year's profits (and possibly more) are projected to fall.

141--You are missing a very important point. Firms have to make management decisions projecting forward. It makes no difference what last year"s profits were if next year's profits (and possibly more) are projected to fall.

144,

My guess is that the weighted average of Cravath's start dates is somewhere around mid-November, possibly later.

I'd also add that I think very few of us are BLAMING Cravath. They did what they thought they had to do.

Simpson Thacher = September

McDermott still has not announced start dates. Hell, make it 2011 for all I care, I am glad to still have a job (supposedly), but please decide and tell me so I can budget appropriately and start looking for openings at Wendys in the interim

Milbank rumors are just rumors.

Cravath pushing back it's start dates and shortening the summer program saves the law firm literally millions of dollars.
If those measures mean can save several associates from being laid off, then they sound pretty damn prudent to me.

I believe that the true source of our grief is the evil Dildeena Thompson.

Im an incoming sidley associate and i am pretty bummed that i lost six weeks of pay today.

that said, i want to warn the simpsons and the milbanks and willkies and the other firms who are really digging their sept/early october start dates. i was really into my Sept 14 start date up until this afternoon. the rug can get pulled out at any time.

theres no question that sidley is doing this because they can- the firm is doing well, overall, in terms of revenue, profits, steady flow of work. theyve gone out of their way to shuffle associates out of dead practice groups into busier ones.

and it looks like the sidley partnership saw that cravath and latham and orrick and everyone are saving millions pushing their start dates back and sidley thought they could get away with it too.

Given that Milbank's start sate is currently set at October 19 (according to ATL, at least), if they are going to push it back, it will be to January 2010 at the earliest. No way they cause a fuss for a November start date.

But, in today's brave new world, anything can happen.

ATL should create a list of start dates for easier reading. It would be interesting to see if the Northeast- based firms are delaying start dates as much as, say, a West Coast or Midwest firm. Since I am a 3L with an offer - and no firm start date either way - it would be helpful to get a sense of the trend that is emerging.

-3L

Tax law alert: depending on your other income, a start date later in 2009 (but not into 2010, because that would deny you 2009 income) could improve your eligibility for the lifetime learning credit and the student loan interest deduction. Those benefits phase out quickly according to income and a new associate who starts in September probably won't get the full benefits. But one who starts in October or November could. It's like getting one week or so of salary back -- not much maybe, but better than nothing in this market.

FYI -- According to the extranet site that Cravath sent around to incoming attorneys the full clerkship bonus for clerks appears intact. They also had the same choices of starting that the incoming first-years did.