Open Thread: Nationwide Start Date Round-up
If you’re a 3L or a clerk with a Biglaw job offer, congratulations. If you were hoping for a traditional start date in the fall, you may be a little disappointed though. Many a firm has pushed its start date for incoming associates into 2010.
Yesterday, Milbank Tweed informed associates that it’s pushing back start dates from October 2009 to January 2010. From a tipster:
This was done [Monday] afternoon by phone from partners (probably from the practice groups where incoming associates are slated to go) and an email went out later. Old Start Date: Oct. 19, 2009. New Start Date: January 25, 2010. $10,000 stipend + the $10,000 you can get as a salary advance + moving expenses + bar expenses.
Incoming associates at Arent Fox and Fulbright & Jaworski are also reporting that their start dates have been pushed back to January 2010. A spokesman from Arent Fox tells us that a lucky few still have the option to start this year though:
A number of third-year law students who were offered a position with Arent Fox will start on November 1, 2009 as previously planned. The remaining 3L students offered a position with Arent Fox have had their start dates deferred until Feb. 1, 2010…. Arent Fox is providing a stipend plus bar exam fees for those whose start date has been deferred.
We’ve got a round-up of start dates at over 20 Biglaw firms after the jump, most of them set to welcome new associates in 2010. We invite you to supplement start date information in the comments, or by e-mailing us with “Start Date Watch” in the subject.
Here are the firms for which we have start date information. We’ve also included the amount of the deferral stipend when it’s known to us (this stipend is often in addition to a salary advance and/or bar exam fees).
This is an open thread for associates-to-be to brag about 2009 start dates or lament 2025 start dates. Also, feel free to send us more information at tips@abovethelaw.com with “Start Date Watch” in the subject.
Earlier: BigLaw to 2009 Graduates: See you in 2010!
Prior ATL Nationwide Start Date Watch coverage
(293) Comments
Comments
Boston still waiting on Wilmer and Goodwin.
Arent Fox rescinded 20 out of 22 offers in their DC office. The only 2 3Ls they are keeping are people who summered with the patent group. Waiting for this to be a headline...
Cravath moved up their start date to July 30.
Who will be the next firm to outdo the rest or to stand alone as worst in terms of dealing with this?
From the comments here, seems like Goodwin could come out as best or worst.
Best- This talk of "creative options" might yield something new and effective.
Worst- They could cheap out on the stipend stuff and make it an advance or something.
Who will be the next firm to outdo the rest or to stand alone as worst in terms of dealing with this?
From the comments here, seems like Goodwin could come out as best or worst.
Best- This talk of "creative options" might yield something new and effective.
Worst- They could cheap out on the stipend stuff and make it an advance or something.
Elie get with it. Your post yesterday on Alston & Bird included the memo outlining the $10,000 stipend for deferral. Why isn't it included here?
Sidley told us in March Nov 2 or Nov 16, and that we'd get more information soon.
We've heard nothing since.
No stipend provided, just the usual 10K advance.
4/5,
Do you really think your incessant pestering in the comments of ATL is going to impact what/when Goodwin does anything?
6 = A&B loser with inferiority complex.
What is a Stipend?
King & Spalding should be on this list. Pushed start dates back to January with no additional stipend or benefits.
Gibson - Nov. 16th or Nov. 30th Start Date.
At least all these firms are giving their incoming associates definitive dates and stipend information. Blank Rome dropped the deferral bomb almost 3 weeks ago and no start date or stipend information has been relayed to incoming associates. Awesome to be in the dark.
9 = Elie
2 -- keep waiting, because you're just wrong.
CWT: October 5, 2009
All I heard on my Millbank phone call was some partner with a weird voice yelling, "Give me back that fillet-o-fish. Give me that FISH!"
For firms that haven't given incoming associates any information how long can we expect to wait?
Locke Lorde - Sept 8
Baker Botts - October or November
V&E - September
18 - your rescinded offer letter is in the mail. Only a few more days and you will know.
No I'm not
2
Do the additional stipends have to be repaid at some point, or is it just "play money" the firms are giving for the delay?
Also, aren't all the threads on ATL "open threads?"
Cleary has 4 start dates. Earliest is Sept 2009. Latest is Jan 2010
Stipend = free money
Salary Advance = loan
GDC either Nov 16th or Nov 30th plus interest free loan of up to four weeks of base salary
2 isn't wrong - Arent Fox just screwed over a bunch of people.
is milbank allowing incoming associates to do their pro bono internship program before the start date?
have any firms changed their policies re: moving costs?
STB Sept 21, Oct 26, Nov 30
Simpson Thacher is September, October, and November of 2009.
I you work in Texas, do they pay you in pesos?
At the firms that have a few start dates, are they assigned to each associate on a first-come, first-serve basis? Or does it just depend on the work flow for each practice area?
Pic with post - brilliant.
Good work. Please update as you get new information.
troutman sanders- Jan 2010
no additional benefits
5000 salary advance, as planned originally
Paul Hastings = October 12, 2009.
Most 3Ls will be departing their accommodations at school by late May and are in the process of making new living arrangements (if they haven't already). Firms which don't provide confirmation of start dates within the next week or so are simply irresponsible. That may tell you all you need to know about the firm and how you're likely to be treated by it in the future.
Has anyone heard anything about MVA?
Simpson, Cleary and Davis have start dates throughout the fall, nothing has been pushed back, first come/first serve kinda thing.
Sidley is early November, Skadden is late October and Sullivan is early October.
update list accordingly.
31--only if you can't spell "if".
So I imagine that most law students aren't covered by a spouse (or other person's) health insurance.
I think that most school sponsored insurance programs only run through the summer.
What are most (or any) firms doing about this? In the past I know that some firms have allowed you to start health insurance in the summer when your school insurance ran out and that you just paid back once you started a couple of months later.
But with start dates pushed back to January (and even later in some cases) I'm not sure if they will do this (or even if they could under their health plan contracts since you won't be working there at all for that year).
Anybody know anything? If students have to buy private health insurance on the market with part of their stipend or salary advance that could really kill people's cash flow.
What is going on here? Why isn't this a bigger issue?
V&E: Sep. 8, 14, 21, or 28
Skadden is mid-Oct and mid-Nov 2009 with voluntary deferral
Dewey does NOT have a 5k stipend. They offer an additional 5k SALARY ADVANCE. In other words "borrow some money you may never see"
Is Fulbright seriously NOT giving a stipend until January???? That is absurd.
Nov. 1 = Sunday. Nice start date, Arent Fox!
Is Fulbright seriously NOT giving a stipend until January???? That is absurd.
FirsTTT!
In Texas to freeze salaries and delay start dates.
FulbrighTTT
45 - I agree. Especially with V&E still offering September start dates. V&E is going to have a great recruiting season if Baker Botts has pushed back to November and F&J is deferring until January with no stipend.
lets talk about health insurance.
whose giving what? do most places only give it the day you start work?
October 26 for Jones Day firm-wide.
41 - Move to Canada! Universal health care = civilized society
perkins coie - January 2010
QUINN'S CHICAGO OFFICE IS HIRING.
ITS LA OFFICE IS FIRING.
SWEEEEET.
F&J must really be doing badly. . . I'm glad I didn't accept my offer there.
F&J is offering a salary advance, but no stipend.
I refuse to be paid in pesos, Mr. Botts.
Wop Genius
WLRK - September 15
Any word from any Baker & Mckenzie office?
54 = Racist
Is this for all Fulbright offices? Any word on Fulbright summers?
Cadwalader's start date is October 5, 2009. Good thing they took care of their layoffs last summer!
44 you dumass their's no difference between the two
59 - yes several of them will be closed by the end of the year (unknown what will happen to incoming first years).
QUINN REMAINS off this list
60 = careless. Good quality in a lawyer.
Littler Mendelson - Sept. 14 or Sept. 28.
7: Sidley's $10k they already were planning on giving is a stipend, not an advance
50: Sidley is starting Health Insurance on June 1 (even though start dates are pushed back to Nov.), which is a good deal since all of our student health insurance will be up. Plus, if they don't end up ever hiring us, at least i got a few months of free health insurance! woo!
66 = Racist
O'Melveny is insuring all incoming associates starting five weeks before the Bar Exam. So even though they are not offering us a stipend for the three month push back, I am just glad I'll have health coverage! that saves $150/month at bottom.
FIND OUT MORE ABOUT F&J DEFERRAL PACKAGE (If there is one), KASH! Thanks!
Finnegan = November 2
My wife and I have been paying for private health insurance through anthem for 3+ years at about $200/month for both of us. Obviously if you have serious health problems it would be more expensive, but for us rent is a much bigger concern with a delayed start date (i.e. we may be living with parents).
anybody know proskauer, kaye scholer or winston strawn
Phleger start dates?
and I agree that 66 is racist
My wife and I have been paying for private health insurance through anthem for 3+ years at about $200/month for both of us. Obviously if you have serious health problems it would be more expensive, but for us rent is a much bigger concern with a delayed start date (i.e. we may be living with parents).
68, good information. Since Sidley has only pushed back a month or two that is nice.
I'm really wondering what is going on with places that have January (or later) deferral dates.
52, Canada scares me. I don't like polar bears, or penguins, or hockey, or whatever else you people have up there. And why is there maple leaf on your flag? That is just weird.
-41
Has anyone heard about Bracewell
Assurant offers reasonable short term health insurance policies, especially if you're essentially looking for catastrophic coverage. It's not available in all areas, but I used it to cover the gap between student insurance ending and work insurance beginning - I think I paid around $350 (total) for three months for myself.
Confirm #12: GDC is Nov. 16, 2009 or Nov. 30, 2009.
Does anyone know anything about Winston Strawn start dates?
HEALTH INSURANCE: Do not purchase one of those "temp" insurance plans, they are not worth the cost, and every 6 months renewal you could fall into "pre-existing" conditions category and not be insurable. Instead, go ahead and purchase a private insurance policy if you qualify. If you are on a student plan and have a pre-existing condition that will not allow you to purchase a private policy, call your state insurance commissioner and see what the state law is concerning conversion or state mandated pools. If you let your insurance lapse for more then 59 days and have a pre-existing condition, whatever group plan you end up on can exclude your pre-existing condition. Do not go without insurance, it's not worth the price.
75 -- racist for ignoring Brobeck and skipping to Phleger
Any word on Willkie?
skadden start dates steady @
sep 14, 29
oct 12, 26
optional deferral of $55K stipend + $1K/mo loans + existing $10 advance
skadden start dates steady at sep 14, 29; oct 12, 26
Optional deferral: $55K stipend, $1K/mo for loans + existing $10K advance
Irell & Manella -- Incoming associates can start any Monday they want, ranging from the first Monday after the bar exam (who knows why anybody would do this, but it is an option) til November 1.
This is a joke. Very few of the deferees will actually start at those firms. Most of their offers will be rescinded between now and then. The firms will just hire their next first year class out of the 2010 graduating class.
Sorry, 2009 grads.
@68 - under normal circumstances, the firm doesn't cover all of our premium. Do we have to send Sidley checks for our part of the premium? Is Sidley covering 100% of the premium during the deferral?
Willkie will start in mid-September, says one incoming associate.
Goodwin? Is this thing on?
68: at one point did Sidley change the 10K to a stipend instead of an advance? Every year they allow incoming associates to request a 10K advance on their salary, which is then taken out of their paycheck over a period of something like 3 or 4 months when they get to work.
Did they announce something different? Are you making that up?
As for health insurance- Sidley told us they would pay starting June 1st. We all got that email. It seems very generous to me, and I hope to hear from them sometime soon confirming/explaining how this will work.
Willkie starts 9/14 - suckas
PB&J: December 1.
Please remove comment #66 immediately.
38- I don't think there's been any decision yet.
88: I think that those people would have a good breach of contract claim.
The $10k from Sidley is a loan in New York (as is market), stipend everywhere else, if I recall correctly.
aren't a bunch of these stipends contingent on getting a public interest job?
please differentiate!
Wasn't there a $75,000 stipend for Morgan Lewis?
MODERATOR PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF (AND BAN?) 66
Goodwin offer letters said Fall 2009. Goodwin incoming associates should expect an October start date shortly!
LOL
Are all of these firms maintaining a $160K / year starting salary?
I heard Bracewell only gives stipends if you can provide documentation that you are a racist.
wait... every Sidley office gets a 10K gift except New York? Seriously?
88 = douchebag who already got fired, is very sour, and hopes everyone else shares in his misery.
Arent Fox is cutting starting salaries. Figure TBD.
19: BAKER BOTTS is being outdone by firms like LOCKE LORD? Wow. That is sure to put a damper on recruiting when the supposedly "biggest and best" firm in Texas is one of the only places in TX to defer start dates. FulbrighTTT has been on the decline for a while, so no surprise there, but is this a signal of things to come for Baker Botts?
77, 92: for Sidley NYC it is an advance and no health insurance until the start date. For Sidley CHI it is a stipend and health insurance starts June1st...
the NYC kids can thank "matching the market' for that.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/03/05/how-the-health-care-crisis-hit-home-for-my-family/
INFO ON PURCHASING HEALTH INSURANCE
104: Sidley NY health coverage will begin on your first day of work. Email = lies.
Can someone confirm this?
Sidley Chi is getting an extra 10K and health coverage starting in June.
Sidley NY is getting an extra 0K and health coverage starting whenever the 3Ls are allowed to start work?
thats pretty funny. and mean. but also funny.
Has anyone heard from DLA yet?
88 = douchebag who already got fired, is very sour, and hopes everyone else shares in his misery.
111 - this is 108, way to read btw. Yes that is true - like I said, they are matching the market... stipends aren't standard in NYC thus Sidley NYC is not paying them (why would they?).
The market is the same reason NYC got higher bonuses than CHI did back in the good days.
111- those decisions are made on an office by office basis. NY office has never paid a stipend, and wont this year.
114- given the pushback of the start dates by two months, however, it would be nice if a little extra $ was thrown the incoming associates way so they can pay rent, eat, etc.
is it the same deal with health coverage? a matching-the-market thing?
96 -- nice try with your flame, but come on. on the other hand, a rescinded association WOULD have a decent (although not smoking gun) promissory estoppel claim for reliance damages. I would actually encourage any rescinded associates to pursue reliance damages on an estoppel theory -- you should at least be able to recover 25k-50k or so, depending on the situation surrounding your move and projected start date.
96 -- nice try with your flame, but come on. on the other hand, a rescinded associate WOULD have a decent (although not smoking gun) promissory estoppel claim for reliance damages. I would actually encourage any rescinded associates to pursue reliance damages on an estoppel theory -- you should at least be able to recover 25k-50k or so, depending on the situation surrounding your move and projected start date.
96 -- nice try with your flame, but come on. on the other hand, a rescinded associate WOULD have a decent (although not smoking gun) promissory estoppel claim for reliance damages. I would actually encourage any rescinded associates to pursue reliance damages on an estoppel theory -- you should at least be able to recover 25k-50k or so, depending on the situation surrounding your move and projected start date.
No word from Kaye Scholer . . . or Proskauer . . . Or Winston Strawn . . . Tomorrow is April 1st and we all graduate sometime in May . . . Any later and these firms are sending us 3Ls a nice "F*** You" graduation present. When does the delay become cruel and unusual punishment? No, I'm not a law student looking for a cause of action, but I want to know if I have a therapist visit in my future. . .
-3L
88:
Probably hit the nail on the head. Most firms will push back start dates later and later. Before long January 1, 2010 will be the new "September" of start dates. Once a couple of firms start pushing the January 1st. date back a month or two, firms will realize that they can defer hiring the entire class of 2009 and wait on the class of 2010. If the state of the economic downturn worsens in late 2009, some firms will push the January 1st. date to something like March or April. Other firms will just pass on the class of 2009 altogether.
The other thing they will almost definitely do is rescind offers completely to anyone who does not pass the July bar. And to those who think the bar exam is a joke, I know people who did not pass the first time, even a couple of Harvard grads. They both passed the second time and made good lawyers, although one of them was recently laid off. I passed the first time and my situation appears to be stable, but who knows?
The sense of entitlement here makes me want to upchuck the sushi I had for lunch. If you are a 3L, or a soon to be 3L, you should be happy that you even have a possibility of future employment sometime in late 2009 or even early 2010. Many of the recently laid off, especially the first years, are so totally and royally screwed it is not even close to being funny. Take the bar, move hope and defer your loans. You have been living like a law student for three years, what's another nine months to a year going to do, kill you?
Does anyone have any idea what is going on with Shearman & Sterling? No word yet on a confirmed start date and it is getting late.
Gibson Dunn:
Choice of November 16 or November 30 2009
13K stipend plus optional four week advance
All I know is that Locke Lord's Houston office smells rotting garbage and sweaty secretary ass. I hate going there. For the love of god get some Febreze up in there or something.
89: 68 here, not sure how Sidley's health insurance is going to work...my guess is the premiums due will come out of our paycheck once we start working, but I guess we will have to wait for info
92: I had no idea there were differences in the stipend/loan based on office, but it seems like other people in the know clarified that. All i know is that they have been calling it a stipend in my emails/website this whole time.
116, 117, 118:
You have no claim that would have a chance in court. All a firm would have to do to defeat your claim would be to hire you for a day and then fire you the next day. Ever hear of at will employment?
Get back to studying for finals. Those grades may count in your future if your firm rescinds its offer and you have to rely on your transcript for your first job.
And make sure you pass the bar in July, because if you don't "your" job will be belong to someone else.
Covington: Any Monday after the bar exam.
MoFo is officially Nov *at the earliest.* More after the jump...
Willkie's going ahead as scheduled in both offices.
89, 92, and others.
In Chicago (and most other places) you get $10k (or other amounts) stipends over the summer .
In NYC you get salary advances.
This is historically made up for by the fact that in NYC you get a stub year bonus in the first December (i.e. a couple of months after people used to start) that people outside of NYC don't get. It used to work out to be about the same since the advance was an interest free loan and the stub bonuses were around $10k (back when we got $35k+ stub/first year bonuses).
What is going to happen now that many people don't start until January and first year bonuses are small to non-existent (prorated $17.5k first year bonus, aka $4 if you started Oct 1, was demolished by a $10k stipend this year)... who knows?
As for health insurance. At least when I started (not at Sidley, but another big firm in Chicago), we could start our health insurance over the summer and then we paid our part of the premium out of our first (or first few depending on how much) paycheck. You don't get health insurance for "free" but you do get to start before you start work on your employer's plan/pricing.
-41
****NEW INFORMATION****
Mintz Levin pushed back to January 2010, additional 10k in advance provided, total 20k advance (not stipend)
125 - I actually think your "hire you for a day" condition makes things worse. The claim is pretty dead now, before moving expenses and all other opportunities for employment have been foregone. But in 5 months, after the associte has incurred moving expenses, taken the bar of the jurisdiction, bought work clothes, etc, etc, etc., a firing on the first day of work due to economic conditions known to the firm well in advance actually makes a much better claim for reliance damages (all depending on what is reasonable in these circumstances)
Can someone confirm whether Milbank called according to practice area? Because if so, I am fucked. Anyone get a call from a Bankruptcy partner?
I don't think 3Ls are all acting out of some misguided sense of entitlemment. See, those firms gave us an offer, and against our better judgment, we relied on an offer for at-will employment. I don't think playful banter about promissory estoppel is even helpful, but I do believe that firms should should hurry to tell their incoming associates what is going on. Defer me? Go ahead. Flat out refuse to hire me? Okay. But I need to know NOW so I can start to plan my life PRIOR to Bar Prep and Finals.
The public interests jobs are filing up b/c other firms notified the incoming 3Ls early. If firms continue to wait they are placing the 3Ls in a horrible position. So if any recruiters or firm management are trolling the ATL comments, just pull the trigger already! You'll feel better in the morning.
-119
I don't think 3Ls are all acting out of some misguided sense of entitlemment. See, those firms gave us an offer, and against our better judgment, we relied on an offer for at-will employment. I don't think playful banter about promissory estoppel is even helpful, but I do believe that firms should should hurry to tell their incoming associates what is going on. Defer me? Go ahead. Flat out refuse to hire me? Okay. But I need to know NOW so I can start to plan my life PRIOR to Bar Prep and Finals.
The public interests jobs are filing up b/c other firms notified the incoming 3Ls early. If firms continue to wait they are placing the 3Ls in a horrible position. So if any recruiters or firm management are trolling the ATL comments, just pull the trigger already! You'll feel better in the morning.
-119
Yeah at this point, Shearman is just being plain retarded
All I know is that Locke Lord's Houston office smells rotting garbage and sweaty secretary ass. I hate going there. For the love of god get some Febreze up in there or something.
____________________
I noticed the same thing except I thought it smelled more like sour milk.
Any news on Greenberg Traurig start dates?
Well if Ropes and Mintz pushed back to January, I think we can safely say that Wilmer and Goodwin fall in that range and will do the same.
Now lets just see if they cheap out in regards to stipend vs. advance.
Check out http://lawfirmchaos.blogspot.com for a summary of how the law firms have handled this crisis; site currently includes length of summer program and deferral options (if available), but more details will be added soon.
Cleary's first start date option is September 12. Is that the earliest of any firm?
Shearman & Sterling was relevant 60 years ago. Now it is just full of homosexuals who wack off to monkeys at the Bronx Zoo.
September 12 is a Saturday. Does that mean Cleary's new associates get to work their first weekend, then?
139 - nice chart. It is interesting that there is more action at the top. Are the lower ranked firms waiting to drop the bomb?
127 -- good call. You think MoFo will give any more information about start dates? I mean, "November at the earliest" is not very helpful for planning a move, bar loans, bar trips, etc.
127 -- good call. You think MoFo will give any more information about start dates? I mean, "November at the earliest" is not very helpful for planning a move, bar loans, bar trips, etc.
all these deferrals are bad news for current 1Ls. with no first year associates starting in september, there will be no one to take them out for lunches during interview season.
if you want to eat at Nobu, you'll have to do it on your own dime, suckers.
If my firm tells me tomorrow that I am deferred, I am planning to take it as an April Fool's joke and show up in September. I think that shows initiative, a good sense of humor and a willingness to forgive on my part.
Does anyone know anything about Choate in Boston?
Shearman & Sterling was relevant 60 years ago. Now it is just full of homosexuals who wack off to monkeys at the Bronx Zoo.
No word from Kaye Scholer. The firm hasn't frozen salaries or conducted mass layoffs, so who knows. It would be nice to hear something soon.
143 - Thanks... I was actually surprised about how few firms have actually announced anything. It is possible that information has only leaked for the top firms. Does anyone know if any V100 firms have rescinded offers?
ANYONE hear anything about Proskauer Rose? Last I've heard it is still set for September 22, 2009 & a 10k advance. please please please if anyone knows what the word is, pass it along. I have a hunch it won't be good news when it comes.
121, 135: Rumor has it that Shearman will defer many incoming associates to 2010. I understand that details are still being finalized.
ANYONE hear anything about Proskauer Rose? Last I've heard it is still set for September 22, 2009 & a 10k advance. please please please if anyone knows what the word is, pass it along. I have a hunch it won't be good news when it comes.
Still waiting to hear from Kirkland (Chicago). Any info on start dates? I've heard that the LA office decided on Nov. 2.
143; Many of the higher ranked Vault firms have larger corporate / real estate departments than other V100 firms and have therefore taken a bigger hit in the economy. Some of the "lower" ranked litigation heavy firms seem to be in better shape (not freezing salaries, less layoffs, etc.). Maybe that's the reason they've announced so quickly -- there is just no way they can afford to bring on their inflated 09 classes in this economy.
67 - where did you get that information?
im a 1L, so this is all pretty irrelevant to me, esp seeing as ill be lucky to get any form of employment whatsoever during summer ocr.
that said, all this info should be remembered when things turn around again and the 1Ls have to choose between tens of seemingly identical firms.
deferral with no extra money = avoid, for example.
no deferral despite economic mess= bid high.
etc. etc.
http://theshark.typepad.com/weblog/2009/03/all-the-depressing-info-we-could-find-on-your-future-all-in-one-place.html
Large table of nationwide firms that have deferred start dates, rescinding offers, and/or canceled summer programs.
Notice which ass-hat people from which ass-hat firms decided to brag about their stable regular start dates...
Why is it gay to jerk off to monkeys at the zoo?
to anyone with a sept start date: unless its been reconfirmed in the past month or so, i think youre a lil nuts to actually expect to go to work in sept.
im lookin at you willkie, proskauer, kramer levin...
158 - I bet my left testicle there is no way this thing will turn around by this fall. The Class of 2011 is the real lost generation.
The Class of 2009 got offers before the real extent of the downturn was apparent. Meanwhile firms have been laying off associates before they even start working. After employment starts they have a grace window in which layoffs most likely will not happen. Hopefully the grace window will extend to when the economy does start to pick up.
The Class of 2010 is in basically the same boat because most of them had summer offers before the economy tanked, they just have to hustle harder this summer to be the standout.
The Class of 2011 will face firms with small summer associate classes and little change of an offer.
Please! Will someone from Milbank tell me if they called according to practice area?
132, 164
Not sure if it was tied to practice area, but I'd love to know too.
You are all idiots.
Skadden Sparkle
Arent Fox stipend = $5000 (available in November) and they took away the $15K salary advance.
The 2011 class at least has a chance that the economy will improvie in time to save them, 163. The 2009 class, or at least a majority of them, will be unemployed soon as the deferred start dates turn into rescinded offers. There is no chance that the economy imporves in time to save them.
2009 is the lost generation, no doubt about it.
132, 164
Not sure if it was tied to practice area, but I'd love to know too.
142 - its sept. 14. 140 got it wrong.
132, 164
Not sure if it was tied to practice area, but I'd love to know too.
165 - let's figure it out! I got called by a male member of the hiring committee. Did you?
119--Those obviously are among the weaker firms still trying to figure out their futures so it would seem deferral is a pretty good bet. The bigger question may be stipend arrangements.
You know what would make me happy? Someone making a good old fashioned spread butt cheeks joke to add a little levity.
Can someone explain why firms will simply skip over Class of 2009 and onto 2010? It seems that 2010 is screwed because they haven't done any work yet. While I do believe none of these pushed back start dates are definitive, and that these firms can and will continue to push dates back if work doesn't materialize, I am just really hopeful they won't screw us 2009 grads completely over.
155--where did u hear about Kirkland la? DC knows nothing :-(
I have ran some tests, crunched some numbers and the results keep coming back the same.
YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS
I'm serial.
Has anyone hear anything about Baker & McKenzie?
175: It doesn't matter that the 2010 grads "haven't done any work yet." The 2009 grads have not done any work yet, either. Summer work doesn't count. There is no functional difference between a 2009 graduate and a 2010 graduate, neither of you are admitted lawyers yet. So, since the firms do not need to have two first year classes starting at the same time (2009 and 2010 grads starting in fall '10), they will fire one class. That class will be the 2009 grads because keeping them around costs money (deferral costs, stipends, HR costs, benefits if available), whereas the 2010 class is not costing anybody money yet.
2009 is a dead year.
172, if I remember correctly, my partner wasn't on the hiring committee.
Willkie is a stud firm. No doubts about it anymore. Can Willkie please get some love?
148: Ditto. Honestly, Choate, put us out of our PLI misery.
154, just to confirm, the advance is exactly that and needs to be paid back. In the case of layoffs before payback, it's been deducted from severance.
179 = 2010 grad trying to pretend he will have a job. Enjoy getting no-offered at the end of the summer!
To think, all us 3Ls felt so bad for the 2Ls last fall who were struggling to get summer 2010 jobs. This is a mess and a half.
Not even close, 184. But I agree with you that the 2010 class will suffer also. But the 2009 class is truly screwed.
179
179, either you are a 2L or you are a fucking retard. Take your pick.
179 - You are wrong. For the same reasons you stated the firm will keep the class of 2009. They have already paid the deferral costs, bar exam fees, etc. The 2010 class will get snubbed and the firm will only be out 9 weeks of summer associate salary.
milbank did call by practice area. global finance for some of you, whether you wanted it or not.
milbank did call by practice area. global finance for some, whether you wanted it or not.
188, at least we finally get someone logical on here. Thank you.
179 -- you are ignoring the fact that firms have already invested money in 2009 grads (bar costs come to mind). They will not scrap us at this point, at least not all of us....
133/134 for commenter of the year. Give us a clue!
189
Do you have proof?
Dear 162,
With all due respect, please do not put Willkie in the same category as Proskauer and Kramer Levin. I worked there for 5 years. Willkie is a top firm and has proved itself over and over again. Wilkie is extremely well run and well leveraged. This economy has allowed us to see which firms are the real deal and which ones are bullshit. I'm glad people are able to see what a great firm willkie is. Oh, and can't forget the hot Willkie associates.
Why doesn't the list reflect the firms that have normal fall 2009 start dates?
Seems unlikely that Milbank called by practice area. These decisions are normally made in the spring, but given they pushed back until January, why would they make these decisions now? Better to wait and see how the economy plays out and then allocate incoming associates accordingly.
Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I am 100% completely fucked. But we can all confirm this by asking around and posting the results here.
188,
Firms are already rescinding offers to the 2009 class. Right now, only the weaker firms are doing that, but even stronger firms are beginning to push back already deferred start dates for the 2009 class. Soon, they will all be rescinding. That's all the evidence you need. 2009 is dead.
179
Willkie is way past the level of Proskauer and Kramer Levin. Willkie is the most undervalued, under appreciated NY big law firm that matters. The comment above about Willkie being a stud is true - they really are a stud.
It is a shame there is some sort of Willkie bias on this board - ATL run an expose on Willkie displaying how well run the firm is. Its top notch - give it the recognition it deserves.
The Class of 2009 is not more valuable than the Class of 2010. If anything, it is less wanted because it is larger, being the product of SA offers made in the fall of 2007.
There's no meaningful difference between a 2L and a 3L.
My call was from a practice area partner.
179:
Your reasoning is hard to follow. Rather than pursue the easier and cheaper option of giving very few offers to 2Ls, firms will ride off the significant time and money they have already sunk in the class of 2010 and rescind their offers. Firms can and might do both, but it's hard to see why they'd opt for the latter over the former if they only could choose one.
I'm deluding myself into believing that 179 is right.
- 2L, scared shitless
179,
If 2009 is death, than 2010 is rigamortis. Before the implosion, firms had been ramping up incoming associate numbers, and 2009 was the last "good summer" experience for quite some time to come. Period.
What use will firms have to bring in MORE fresh associates in 2010? Enjoy your 8 week summer paychecks...and save every penny you can.
It's not just a river in Egypt, 179.
My call was from partner in practice area I put as #1, and he/she said that he/she looked forward to working with me when I started in January.
Actually, 192, your argument defeats itself. The fact that they have already incurred those costs for the class of 2009 means they are sunk costs. The prudent manager realizes this and focuses instead on prospective costs.
Since it's too late for any well-known firm to cancel its summer program, those costs can essentially be looked at as sunk as well. Thus considering only prospective costs between now and Fall 2010. Given that firms will have to pay deferral stipends and health coverage this fall and winter for the class of 2009, but won't have to pay anything for the class of 2010 until bar expenses this time next year, from a pure cost perspective, hiring the the class of 2010 makes more sense.
However, considering the current state of many firms, the assumption that they have prudent business managers is highly questionable.
201 - which group? and was he/she a hiring partner (check the website)? I would like to think the hiring partners just divided up the calls. But who knows.
WHAT ABOUT SCHULTE?
However, 206, these costs have been already paid to 2009 summers. The firms can dodge these costs next year by no-offering 2010 summers after paying them only 8 weeks salary. So, it seems that your argument defeats itself...
The "better" 09s are safe. Can't say the same about the bottom of the 09 class. As for the class of 2010, they will probably get the same treatment. Only the stronger SAs will get offers. Firms are cutting the fat to their current associates. Seems like they'll probably do the same to incoming associates. The idea that only 1 class is screwed doesn't seem very realistic.
I think there are essentially two routes, both of which leave 2009 in decent shape.
1) no offer a large percentage of this summer's class
2) give offers at usual rates this summer and defer 1 year. Make sure that summer class in 2010 is very, very small (Morgan Lewis option)
It seems to me that firms which will be in a position to care about their recruiting image in August will be more likely to do #2, but if things continue to get worse, who knows?
206 - Yeah, that's a really bad argument...if they have a choice between what they might consider two fungible units and they have already invested in one, the obvious choice is to take the 2009 graduate as opposed to investing in a 2010 graduate.
Reality people. To 3L's and hopeful first years.
You are all (with very limited exceptions) SCREWED!!!!
If you are a soon to be first year, your start date is a pipe dream without meaning. Firms may bring you in eventually. Maybe January 2010, or March 2010 or even later. You may get a stipend or some bogus pro-bono payola. But, in the end, you will most likely get laid off by the end of 2010 anyway. Why would firms want you when you have zero experience and there are experienced attorneys out on the street from top schools who would take "your" jobs in a heartbeat for first year pay???????
The Big Law model may be slightly broken, but eventually somebody at some firm will realize that recruiting from law schools is something that they do not need to do for at least the next three years.
And for the record, I am not a laid off associate.
Wow, 209. Nice reading comprehension. The fact that the costs have already been incurred is exactly the point of my argument. While it is bothersome to think you may have wasted money, it is best to ignore what you have already spent since you cannot get it back, instead focusing on what will save you more going forward.
No wonder lawyers are such bad managers. Can't even comprehend basic managerial accounting concepts.
206
195 - I can't speak to Willkie's management, but the firm is leveraged at almost the same level as Proskauer. Fried Frank is significantly less leveraged than both firms, so I wouldn't read too much into that. I know some good people going to Willkie and hope they don't push start dates back. But "Willkie is awesome talk" isn't going to make it any less likely they won’t make a decision to push start dates back if they deem it prudent for business. Out of curiosity, when did Willkie last confirm start dates?
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202426909972
197,
You make a good point. Though if they were going to tell us in April, which is when I thought, they may have a good idea of who is going where, even though we're now delayed.
207,
I don't think it was random, as I got a partner I worked closely with in the group I put down first. It may not be because I'm definately going to be in the group, but it seems to be more than simply spliting between the hiring committee. Not to mention the fact that I don't think my partner is on the hiring committee, though I honestly don't remember.
206 - You seem to have missed your own point. Firms haven't spent any money on the class of 2010 yet either--sunk costs, no costs, it makes no difference.
I agree that 2Ls and 3Ls are fungible. But from a PR standpoint, it's much easier to never offer a bunch of 2Ls than start a bloodbath by rescinding 3Ls who were extended offers in the weeks prior to and following graduation or, worse yet, in the middle of bar studying. In this economy, deferrals, stipends, and other efforts to accommodate incoming 3Ls are a showing of goodwill that will reap recruiting benefits in the future.
No offering 2Ls after this summer, however, will be the new "stealth" layoffs meme for fall 2009 because tons of SAs do not put forth the effort to receive an offer in good faith. With reduced class sizes, a few no-offers won't be the death knell since I doubt there's a single firm that extends offers to 100% of the class.
And the only thing less valuable than a first year lawyer is a 3L interviewee that got no-offered his 2L summer.
Is DC just on total information lockdown or what? nothing on wilmerhale, arnold & porter, etc...
Are any of us 2009's NOT screwed?
217 - sure they have. They're all having summer programs of ~10 weeks. That's a sunk cost, homie. It is cheaper for firms to rescind 3L offers and hire 2L's. No pesky 60K deferral fee to not come to work. Now, I'm not saying that's what firms will do, but it is cheaper.
Schulte is eerily silent.
176 - it's 155 here. I heard (of the nov. 2 start date) from my classmate who's working at Kirkland LA. Another classmate is still waiting to hear from Kirkland DC. And as I stated, still no word from Kirkland Chicago.
195-It's true that Willkie is a much stronger firm, but it's more that Kramer and Proskauer are below most firms being discussed on this site than it is that Willkie is superior.
The word on Kirkland Chicago is that everyone has AIDS. Not surprisingly, Kirkland LA has been keeping their distance.
219- Some 2009s are not screwed. Some of you will get hired. Probably even a majority, however slim. But an awful lot of you are going to have to look elsewhere. Good luck with that.
Wow. This comments clusterf*ck if full of idiots. Lol @ 2Ls and 1st yr associates defending 2009 as the screwed class, and 3Ls vigorously defending its position in the biglaw scheme. You're all idiots.
What is with these people talking about how firms should throw more money after their sunk costs? No wonder business people hate having you guys around. There is no economic justification for doing that.
I should have phrased that differently.
WHICH of us 2009's are not screwed?
217, 220, 206, you're all idiots. Unless the law firm model is undergoing a radical restructuring right now (which it's not), no single class will be unilaterally fucked.
The law firm model must produce partners to survive. Every class of associates must produce a partner class. Even in the boom times, the associate class was whittled. Then, it happened fairly late in the process; now, it will be happening much more quickly. Often, 2Ls, 3Ls, and associates will likely find the cuts arbitrary--during the 2L summer, prior to the first year, during the first year, following the first year, following the second year--but these are merely choices that begin to shape the partner class of 2017/2018.
Both the classes of 2017 and 2018 will exist as they always have, and assuming an improved economy by then, will probably be much more robust than the partner classes of 2008, 2009, and 2010 likely have been.
So, the only difference between the degree to which the partner class of 2009 and the partner class of 2017 gets fucked is when most of the culling gets done. For current 3Ls, it will certainly be done vigilantly in the first year and second year. For current 2Ls, it will begin immediately this summer.
The point: all of us are under the guillotine together. Some of us just get to go up to the chopping block with money in our pockets.
217, 220, 206, you're all idiots. Unless the law firm model is undergoing a radical restructuring right now (which it's not), no single class will be unilaterally fucked.
The law firm model must produce partners to survive. Every class of associates must produce a partner class. Even in the boom times, the associate class was whittled. Then, it happened fairly late in the process; now, it will be happening much more quickly. Often, 2Ls, 3Ls, and associates will likely find the cuts arbitrary--during the 2L summer, prior to the first year, during the first year, following the first year, following the second year--but these are merely choices that begin to shape the partner class of 2017/2018.
Both the classes of 2017 and 2018 will exist as they always have, and assuming an improved economy by then, will probably be much more robust than the partner classes of 2008, 2009, and 2010 likely have been.
So, the only difference between the degree to which the partner class of 2009 and the partner class of 2017 gets fucked is when most of the culling gets done. For current 3Ls, it will certainly be done vigilantly in the first year and second year. For current 2Ls, it will begin immediately this summer.
The point: all of us are under the guillotine together. Some of us just get to go up to the chopping block with money in our pockets.
153, Where are you getting that rumor about Shearman?
Living in Houston = Living inside someone's mouth.
Living in Dallas = Pretigious.
At what point does the concept of associate unionization enter the discussion?
234 -- so which firms have not touched their starting dates, have not shortened the summer, and have not offered deferrals?
So full disclosure.
I'm currently a first year.
Now, as to who, the current 2Ls or 3Ls (aka classes of 2010 and 2009) is more screwed, the answer is the current 2Ls.
The main problem with the 2L's argument is that they think that firms have to pay carrying costs if they defer the 3Ls past January 2010. This just isn't true. While some firms are offering public interest stipends and other increased stipends for deferring people, many firms aren't and there is no reason to think that deferral packages will get better.
Look at this way.
2009 Grads:
Sunk Costs: Summer Program, Bar exam fees, Barbri, normal stipend (assuming you haven't rescinded by this summer)
2010 Grads:
Sunk Costs: Summer Program
That is it.
While some firms have been offering the 2009 class more stipends and some benefits before they start there is no reason that they have to continue to do that. If I'm a firm I can tell my 2009 class that they will get what they thought they were going to get (stipend, bar expenses, etc.) but that because of the current economy I can't give them anything else. And you know what, they'll be happy to have a job (even if they start in Jan, March, June, or even Oct of 2010).
Of course this doesn't mean that the class of 2010 is totally screwed. But since a lot of the class of 2009 will be starting in the 6 months before you hopefully start (if the economy turns around and your start date isn't delayed) the firms won't need that mean 1 and 1.5 years. Thus expect this summer to be brutal in terms of offers.
As far as reputation is concerned, it is A LOT easier to non-offer summers than people that you already gave offers to. And law firms partners are actually people (aka without much financial sense) and they will feel less bad about cutting the class they haven't seen yet instead of the class they know already.
153, Yes, have you spoken to anyone at Shearman & Sterling? 3Ls are waiting (impatiently) on word of what to expect?
230/231 still thinks most of these firms make partners internally.
237--
Even if most partners come to firms through the lateral market, that still supports 229/230's argument that there will likely be a class of '09. In other words, some firms have to have '09 associates so those associates can become partners either internally or through the lateral market.
Everyone's going to get squeezed. First and second years have already lost their jobs. 3L's will get their offers rescinded or be laid off as first years. 2L's have already taken a hit with smaller summer class sizes, and even more fat will be trimmed through no-offers. 2009 OCI for the 1L's will be a bloodbath. Nobody wins here.
ya'll forgot Katten Muchin Rosenman - Feb. 1, 201, 6k stipend on top of 9k summer stipend.
237 thinks lateral hires spawn in Imaginationland.
230
I highly doubt V30 firms who have already reduced the summer 2009 class size by 30-40% from 2008 will depart significantly from previous offer percentages. Firms with the foresight to hire less summer associates will prevail unscathed.
Any layoffs in the near future at Milbank?
wow, V&E Houston has like 77 summer associates this summer compared to 40 the previous summer. Information coming from NALP and I have no idea how accurate that info is.
While people understandably are focused on the near term--what job is available now or when they enter the market--the larger issue implicit in what's going on is whether a BigLaw firm is really where they want to be after the smoke clears and the new (legal) world order becomes apparent. It will be quite different.
244: A lot of V&E Houston associates have lateraled to other firms in the last year or two. Also, a lot of V&E's 2007 and 2008 summers rejected them, opting instead to accept with the firms that they split with. V&E Houston needs new sets of eyes for doc review. I think that explains the high numbers for summer '09.
not a word about:
Kramer Levin
Cahill Gordon
Paul Hastings
Akin Gump
Hughes Hubbard
Kaye Scholer
Schulte Roth
surely there must be something to report.
not a word about:
Kramer Levin
Cahill Gordon
Paul Hastings
Akin Gump
Hughes Hubbard
Kaye Scholer
Schulte Roth
surely there must be something to report.
0H N0ES!!1
Sutherland's not laying off, they have plenty of money.
206 - Yeah, that's a really bad argument...if they have a choice between what they might consider two fungible units and they have already invested in one, the obvious choice is to take the 2009 graduate as opposed to investing in a 2010 graduate.
Er, September 14 for Cleary.
245: VERY True. If you can find the right small firm opportunity, get better first hand experience, you can short circuit your path to success if you learn early on how to bring business in the door.
I have faith in Kaye Scholer -- conservative and responsible during the boom and didn't have an inflated 2008 summer class. The 2009 summer class is half the size. October start date, please?
-scared incoming 3L without a start date
im an associate at Cahill and theres NO way they have enough work to take on the incoming class, let alone the summers this year.
im just hoping they take it out on them and not those of us who actually work here.
With all the associate start dates pushed into 2010, I hope nobody's still thinking that another crop of first years, i.e., 2010 law grads, will be starting as usual in September 2010. Ship be sinking ...
P.S. Walgreens announced free health care for unemployed people. Seriously.
256 - I think most 2L's will be fine with the fact that they start in 2011, as long as they have jobs.
256- You have to have visited a clinic at Walgreen's before you lost your insurance, so get to those clinics.
254- when did you get your offer from Kaye, during the program (ie, the last day or whenever) or some time after the summer program ended?
All you haters saying 3Ls are "fucked"- fuck you
hearing 2L's and 3L's debating whose more screwed, and associates at one top firm or another arguing about which firm is safer is funny, everyone is really passionate and I can't help but think instead of arguing with one another, you ought to be exerting pressure on the law firms whose partners are cutting costs to maintain their ridiculous salaries, A law firm where partners make more than $1M, should under no circumstance ever be firing anyone period, when those salaries get to 250k or so maybe you can start to have the conversation.
Yeah, 230, keep telling yourself you're going to make partner at Skadden.
230's right, maybe if Barry O didn't line the pockets of the same people who were involved in our economic crises, instead of lining their pockets with the smoke and mirror effect of increased funding for the liberal agenda, or in another words, the same lawyers who made the deals to screw us, i'm looking at you rodge, are the same lawyers working on tarp and aara...SO why would the firms model change, the economic downturn's effects are conveniently externalized in the form of a tougher associate environment...
257 - they won't be fine; they won't have jobs
255: how endearing.
The thing about MoFo is they haven't even paid their incoming associates the bar stipend that was supposed to be available in mid-February. As the firm doesn't do direct billing or reimbursements for BarBri or the bar fees themselves, the stipends they had promised us were what most of us in the incoming class were relying on to defray bar expenses. Now, the April 1st deadlines for BarBri and bar applications have all passed and we still haven't heard anything. Nothing. To me, it's both very wrong and very ominous, and I think that something bigger is in the works. "November at earliest" is going to turn into something much later, at best.
Hughes Hubbard Class of 2009 is starting in late September--not being delayed.
V25's have already reduced summer class sizes by 20+%, and they're still probably too big. That means there's a *lot* of extra 3L weight for set to be carried. Even keeping offer rates constant (which they won't be) firms need to cut on average 20% of 2009 to get it the same size as 2010. An effective cut has already taken place for 2L's just in the extension of summer offers.
Greenberg Traurig's start date is January, 2010.
Deferred Associates-NJ Public Interest Organizations want you. Attend the NJ Deferred Associates Job Fair on 4/8 at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center to learn about 14 NJ public interest organizations with jobs openings for you. Newark Mayor Booker will speak as will White & Case partner Jack E. Pace III. For more information and to register, visit www.vljnj.org or search NJ Deferred Associates Job Fair on facebook.
Shearman has paid bar stipends (or at least 3Ls hope). Still no word on a confirmed start date, only the Nov 30th date that was given last summer with a 15 K salary advance not a stipend. Things have definitely changed since then so people just want to know what is going on so they can plan their lives. I mean graduation and finals are in a month. It is ridiculous. Shame on Shearman
235 - uh, sunk costs are just that, sunk costs. If econ 101 taught me anything, it was not to make decisions based on sunk costs. But hey, managing partners are lawyers, not businessmen.
Schiff Hardin moved the start date for incoming 1st years back to January, 2010. No big surprise considering Schiff already laid off 15-20% of associates, but it hadn't been formally announced until today.
266 - i'm scared too. wtf am i supposed to live on this summer?
have most other firms paid out bar stipends yet? anyone?
If thats true about mofo, thats a real travesty.
How is Elie not covering this?? Is Mofo making their incoming associates pay out of pocket??
looks like they are trying to avoid sunk costs...
You guys, the best thing ANYBODY can do right now is pray. Incoming -8th year associates. c/o 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 etc.
The only hope for any of us is an economic turn around. If not we will all eventually lose our jobs/offers. That being said, the best advice is to save, save, save! 2Ls: Save your summer salaries. I am really sad for you guys that you won't experience the capitalist heaven that WAS the bigfirm summer. I truly mean that guys. Incomings: If you're lucky enough to start (as opposed to getting your offer recinded) save all those pay checks and thank the heavens you'll be able to get most of your taxes back bc you paid tuition this year. Current associates: move out of that lavish apt, if you have a house/condo, try to rent it out and rent some place more affordable.
What we should all be doing is revolting against partners who are unwilling to cut their salaries but more than willing to cut our livelihoods.
Of course this post is far to sensible for ATL and thus whatever # I am= asshole, dumb ass, fucktard etc. I'm praying for you guys too.
276 - Agreed. Fucking partners need to at least take a minor hit to their PPPs before firing people and all this other non-sense. But I guess the partners have all the upside benefit and none of the downside risk.
277 - Review your Biz Orgs materials.
Legally, associates are just grunt labor. A lot of associates - and law students - got waaay too comfortable with modern Biglaw firms. These aren't your old-school law firms (every city has a couple) where there was an unwritten code that associates were part of the family. These are businesses, with employment at will, owned by people who don't want to see their incomes go down.
276:
One of the very few posters, besides myself, to make any sense.
Nearly every associate and nearly every 3L, 2L and 1L are set to be screwed.
If you are a current associate and do not have very specialized skills (i.e. complex patent litigation, regulatory, etc.) and you are not billing 200 hours per month, you are highly susceptible to being laid off. Save your money, cut back drastically on spending, save every dollar you can. Build up a rainy day fund of at least six months. Do not count on three months of severance giving you enough time to find a new job. It most probably won't. For example, I know three associates (with stellar resumes and experience) who were canned in October. Two of them found jobs in March and one is still on the street with minimal prospects. All three were good billers, but were caught up in a numbers crunch.
To the 3L's to 1L's, if you get a job at all, save every dollar possible. Room together with classmates, buy bunk beds at IKEA and pack eight people into a 1 bedroom if possible. Save, save save!!!!! "Your" job is nowhere near secure. If you get a summer position, save, save, save. Show up at everything, come in early, stay late and look good. Yes, look good!! If you are female use your assets, if you are male, look sharp, but not over the top. Hope, pray that you get an offer and then hope that your offer does not fall through.
This economic mess will be with us for at least another year, and maybe much longer. Then inflation will hit starting in 2011 or so. If you have a job then, the result will be higher costs for everything and small salary increases. Save now, buy gold and wait it out. You can cash in your Gold American Eagles in 2012 for much more than you paid for them in 2009. Change you can believe in!! Or, change you cannot afford!!!! SUCKERS!!!!
Mayer Brown's start date is 10/19/09. They seem to be one of the few surviving ok.
279:
Perhaps you don't realize the inherent conflict between your advice of "save, save, save" and your prediction of crippling inflation in 2011? If what you predict comes true, the proper advice would be buy or invest, not save. And it makes no sense to invest your savings if you have a short time horizon to realize any gains--gold is one of the most volatile assets out there, and not something you want to invest in for less than five year blocks.
Let me try to boil this down for you: you are an idiot. Yes, just like the ones who are arguing who is more screwed c/o 2009 or c/o 2010.
281:
Perhaps I should have been clearer. Instead of save, how about stop spending. It works out to the same thing when you think about it. Save, stop spending, invest in assets that have real value. Stop spending money on $20-30 lunches and drinking three nights a week. Stop spending, save and put those savings someplace safe from inflation, but liquid. Gold is slightly risky, but not as risky as working for Big Law. I-Bonds are another option, but you are risking the worth of the dollar and there are redemption penalties involved. Stop spending is the first thing you must do. What you do with your "savings" is up to you. (An interest bearing checking account is fine for now, the inflation won't hit for at least 18 months.)
Long term gold is one of the better hedges against inflation and can be bought and sold very easily. Perhaps you could try your luck investing on Wall Street, but didn't they help lead us into this mess? Maybe real estate is more your game? I have a broad range of investments and hope I am prepared for the inflationary spiral we are destined for. Real estate has traditionally been a very good hedge against inflation, but it is not very liquid and I don't think most associates or law clerks will make enough or save enough to make a meaningful investment in real estate in the near future.
Get your six month cushion in an account you don't use and then worry which asset class is the best for you. I have over 18 months of burnable assets built up and can survive if things get bad for me personally.
282 - Ask people who bought gold back in 1980 and are still holding it how it held up as an investment. Even with the turmoil in the stock market, the return would have been exponentially greater if they had invested in mutual funds. But hey, go right ahead and keep listening to those companies on the radio and television trying to sell you gold by telling you what a great hedge it is, despite the fact that you are buying it at the peak of its inflated price.
Avg. price of gold in 1980 - $612.56 per troy ounce (lost value and didn’t reach this level at any point again until 2006)
Avg. price of gold in 2008 - $871.96.
Dow Jones Industrial Average in 1980 – under 1,000
At the lowest point so far in the recession – still over 6,000
Thank god you are a lawyer and not a financial adviser!
275- Absolutely right. The worst part is just not knowing ANYTHING. We're graduating next month. Would be nice to know how to plan the next 6-8 months of our lives. Shame on Mofo.
This is my new go-to source for investment advice.
Those receiving stipends and delayed start dates should seize the opportunity to park your worldly possessions with a family member and buy a ticket to Asia or South America - travel, explore, enjoy the time off and learn some more about the world - you won't have so much vacation time again until you retire!
The silence from some of these firms is deafening. Can we all agree that the firms need to tell thier incoming 3Ls how screwed they actually are sooner rather than later? Whether the firms decide to defer, rescind, or carpet bomb thier incoming class now is the time to tell us. It is 4/2/2009 we graduate in slightly over a month . . . The decent thing to do before you F**** someone over is to give them some lube. An early warning in this case is as good as KY. . .
287 - I'm beginning to think that a deferral is just a big game ... they know that we have to get on with our lives and that we can't support ourselves OR pay loans OR pay insurance etc etc etc. The stipend(s) are just teasers which enable them to avoid the issue of having to make a decision. Getting another job may/may not be an option because there isn't a lot of opportunity out there ... so they know that we pretty much have to stick around, waiting for it to play out .... I personally have HAD it! ENOUGH!
Let's get some updates on here, ATL! I don't want to rely on the comments!
Where is Simpson, Skadden, Sullivan, Davis Polk, Gibson?
wtf? When is Proskauer Rose going to give its incoming associates a start date? School ends in like 4 weeks!
Does anyone have info on this? Argh!
wtf? When is Proskauer Rose going to give its incoming associates a start date? School ends in like 4 weeks!
Does anyone have info on this? Argh!
Where is Skadden? They now call it the side-bar program but it's actuall a deferral program!
Akin Gump depends on the office but the general list is:
Sept 2009-Bankruptcy, IP lit (some lit in Jan 2010)
March 2010 -Corp, M&A