Firms Rescinding 3L Offers: A Follow Up
Last week, we asked you to send us your stories about firms that are rescinding offers to 3Ls. Despite a lot of people calling us sensationalist while drenching themselves in a vat of Kool-Aid, hours after our report we learned that Lowenstein Sadler was rescinding 3L offers (and laying off associates).
But we received other tips as well.
Many people reported that they haven’t heard anything back about their summer program, despite pestering their firms for information. The consensus opinion was that firms had already priced in the market collapse when it came time to hire summer classes. Firms hired fewer people and many firms cut back on the length of the summer program.
But some people reported that their firms were rescinding offers.
We’ve now received reports that Baker Botts and Irell & Manella have both rescinded some 3L offers.
More details after the jump, including an update from Baker Botts.
Further Update: An internal communication from Irell, also after the jump.
Baker Botts declined to respond to Above the Law about their summer program. (See update below.) But we understand that Baker Botts rescinded offers to members of their 2008 summer class that had received verbal offers at the end of the last summer.
Because the firm did not respond to our inquiries, we don’t know how widespread the problem was. But law students aren’t the only ones aware of the issue. Some Baker Botts associates had also heard the news.
At Irell, we understand that alumni of their 2008 summer program are safe. But people who were hired through the 3L recruiting process are being informed that they’ve been “fired.”
Once again, these were people who had verbal offers with the firm, only to receive the offer rescinded — in writing.
As we try to get a handle on how widespread this problem is, one thing that seems to be clear is that 3Ls themselves don’t know what is going on and aren’t being told by their firms. People just don’t seem to know if jobs will be there in September, or October, or January of 2010.
But on the other hand, firms know that they will need first years. Firms don’t want to pay people who will not have any work, but they also can’t afford to eviscerate entire class years. The first years of today are the mid-levels of tomorrow (and some of them will be the rainmakers of the future).
The only thing we can advise is to try to get your offer in writing. Anecdotal evidence suggests that incoming first years with offers in writing are safer than those without.
Update (5:58): Baker Botts got back to us this afternoon to deny the reports from our sources that Baker rescinded any offers. The firm released this statement to ATL:
The firm has not rescinded any offers to any lawyers.
Update (6:51): Baker Botts now wishes to further clarify its previous statement:
We have not rescinded any offers to any 3Ls.
We’ll continue following this story and update you as necessary.
Keep sending us your tips. We’ll keep trying to track which firms are rescinding 3L offers.
Further Update: Irell sent around this communication internally:
From: Varnen, Craig
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:08 PM
Subject: Above the Law report
A number of you may have seen or heard of a report that appeared on Above the Law yesterday that I&M is rescinding offers to 3Ls. That story is false. We are not rescinding our offers to 3Ls. We do not know the source of this false rumor. We are not interested in being drawn into an ATL rumor-fest, but we did want you to have this information to allay any concerns. Craig
Earlier: Open Thread: Firms Rescinding 3L Offers?
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Lowenstein Sandler Cuts 53 And Rescinds 3L Offers
(270) Comments
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FIRST. O'DOYLE RULES!
second?
"[W]e understand that alumni of their 2008 summer program our safe."
Please, please tell me you're doing this on purpose.
PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FIRST to not feel safe despite a biglaw offer in writing
Which BB office(s)?
I am a partner at a V10. We just had a meeting and we have decided to freeze all hiring for 2 years.
SkaddenLA only hires associates with MRSA.
I second 3's comment. Come on Elie!
What's the value of having an offer in writing? Aren't we still at-will employees? Proving you had an offer is not the difficult part of the lawsuit.
And practically speaking, isn't a 3L going to have a prohibitively hard time bringing suit and winning against a large firm?
I'd double check your irell and manella sourcing...
do you want fires with that?
7- Flame? If not, that is very scary.
what happened to those annoying http://www.blackbooklegal.com references everywhere? did you block them ellie/
irell? no way that is true! i mean they don't deserve the dick sucking they've been getting around here lately, but i can't believe they would rescind
Let's dispose of the frenzied worrying early on:
Aaahhh! How will I find a job? How will I pay my bills? Will 1Ls be affected? Will 2Ls be affected? Can I sue if my offer is rescinded? What's at-will employment? Am I safe if I go to T5/10/20/TTT?
There. Anyone have anything new?
"But some people reported that their firms were rescinding offers to summer associates."
This makes it sound like some firms are taking away offers from current 2Ls, but the rest of the post does not suggest anything like that. Rather, offers from current 3Ls are being revoked.
Let's try to phrase this stuff a little better.
QUINN REMAINS
Firms are stuck with the 3Ls and nervous about the impact on recruiting that will come from firing them. Many firms will try to push back start dates and hope 2010 is a better year. If it isn't, the day of reckoning will come.
2Ls will do worse. Summer associate programs are being shortened, with little wining and dining planned, and less than 50% with even a chance to receive offers. Don't like it, go somewhere else.
This will be the "lost generation" at Big Law. No associates from the 2009-2011 classes.
if i'm at latham, should i take the 75,000 and start next year?
"The first years of today [are] the mid-levels of tomorrow"
Feel free to delete this after correction.. I hate those grammar posts and am worried that if this goes unchecked there will be many
Better apply for those government jobs now! I hear the BVA is hiring.
21- I would take that in a second. $75k to do nothing for a year? Where do I sign? I wish my firm would offer me that.
20- go fuck yourself
LOL PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN
HLS 3L V10 offer
PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN
So if firms push start dates for graduating 3Ls, who would normally have started in fall 2009, back to fall 2010, what does that mean for current 2Ls who are slated to start in fall 2010?
See your army recuiter today
They have summer jobs
18 -- agreed, the 2Ls are really in trouble.
What should a 1L do? Should I apply for public interest programs now? How will I pay my debt? Has anyone tried applying for these free grants from the government that I see being advertised all the time? Wonder if it works, I could use a couple grand to pay off debt...
Why do you say that firms "need" first years? I disagree. There's a huge supply of more experienced associates out there at all levels, who may be more connected, more efficient/productive, and who can even justify higher billing rates. Why hire cluelesss first years when you can cherry-pick the big laid-off associate market? And when things begin to pick up, first years will gladly go to any firm that will hire them, even if those firms canceled new hires for a year or 2 (or more).
basically, the current crop of law students are screwed for a while. There is too much available in the second-hand market. The days of law student entitlement are over. And this spring will be filled with posts about the "new" summer associate programs that involve more work, less play, and fewer participants.
Curious, what is the safest associate year at a law firm? 3rd years? 4th years ? I am thinking about the sweetspot of sufficient work quality, little supervision, and low (relative) pay.
I heard ATL is planning massive layoffs. Business hurt by too much fear-mongering. You should check into that.
30 is right. Firms only "need" first years so they can grow talent in-house. But with the number of more experienced associates on the market, they handle any employment needs by hiring laterals. So sorry, law students, but the market be shrinking for inexperienced talent.
"HLS 3L V10 offer"
Considering that this could mean Latham, I'm not sure whether to feel jealousy or pity. Please clarify.
31 - hard to tell, because a lot of it depends on what department you're in. To completely guesstimate, I'll throw fourth year out there as being safest. However, a second year at a busy litigation firm may be safer than a fifth year corporate associate.
Gilroy
Tax is definitely the best area to be in. Tax associates command a higher billable rate so there is less of a pressure on hours. Corporate and litigation attorneys are a dime a dozen.
What is the demand like for antitrust associates?
3L's should be panicking over things that they no longer control -- unless you can change your grades from 2 years ago. No jobs for 3Ls that thought mid-pack at top 20 school would entitle them to 160K -- how that working out for you?
31,
I'd say the safest right now are the current first years. They got in before things got too bad, are still cheap, and it is much harder to fire them since you don't have performance reviews to claim that you looked at.
Do firms really give 3Ls verbal offers and never confirm them in writing? Can anyone confirm that this actually happens?
40, that is not true. Any number of firms have slashed first years. And they are not cheap - first years are the least productive, as a rule, and their losses have to be written off by the partners. Firms were willing to do that when there was more money to go around, but that is not the case anymore.
Who?
I'm shocked to hear this re Irell. They have been relentlessly recruiting laterals for years, but I guess they finally relented.
42 is correct. Associates typically do not start to make money for the Firm until year 3 or 4. Therefore, in this economy, I would think 1-3 will be first on the chopping block.
42 is correct. Associates typically do not start to make money for the Firm until year 3 or 4. Therefore, in this economy, I would think 1-3 will be first on the chopping block.
I summered with BB last summer and received an offer in writing. As far as I know they didn't give any "oral offers." That alone makes the claims a little suspect to me. Still enough to make me nervous though...
this sounds like horrible news for UPenn State's satellite campus in Philly.
40- haven't far more 1st years been fired than 3L's had their offers rescinded so far?
@ 39:
Not surprisingly, it's not working out too well for me. But thanks for asking.
- 3L that thought mid-pack at top 20 school would entitle him to 160k.
My v10 (not Latham) offer is confirmed in writing, but you can bet I don't feel safe. Not even a little.
SLS 3L -- feeling more anxious than nervous T10 1L at the moment...
Elie's performance-based review is in, and the results are not good.
If BB associates have heard of 3L offers being revoked, why don't you try finding out how many? And on what grounds? You know, investigate a little.
49,
I think that is correct, but far less first years have been fired than other junior and mids.
Right now the spectrum from safest to least is probably something like:
3L's -> 1st Year's -> everyone else.
Of course all of the mid's are going to come in here and bitch about the first years but if you look at the numbers so far the first year classes have been the least hit in mass layoffs so far. That isn't to say that they are immune, but there have been lots of places that have laid off lots of people but haven't touched the first year class yet.
i don't believe this story. firms wouldn't give offers over the phone and then not send them a letter stating the same.
Is there any actual evidence of Irell revoking any 3L offers? Is it possible it was an individual "merit-based" decision?
7: details s'il vous plait. A cease and desist on entry level hiring for two years? Is that prospective? How does it apply to 2L's and 3L's in the pipeline?
* sound similar to stall warning *
David Dinkins is my uncle.
31 here . . . Thanks for the responses.
35: I guess I should have prefaced the remark with "all other variables being equal", because I totally agree. If you are profitable, most firms will want to keep you around.
On the surface, its seems like the ends of the spectrum -- senior senior associates and 1st/2nd years -- are in most tenuous positions. Maybe the slightly overachieving 4th/5th year associate that is on a frozen wage scale is in the safest position.
Unfortunately, I am not a 4th or 5th year (objectively) or overachieving (my personal opinion).
A must watch video:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1185143625?bctid=14208748001
A must watch video:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1185143625?bctid=14208748001
Again, happened to me. Naysayers eat your words.
40 - great point.
/ 31
What about the US Attorney's office? I'm a a fed. clerk (district level). How competitive are those jobs going to be right now, if I'm willing to move anywhere?
-T20 '08 grad with middle of the pack grades
"The only thing we can advise is to try to get your offer in writing."
Another unpractical nugget courtesy of Elie.
king & spalding is also revoking 3L offers
I had my Thelen offer in writing. So much for that!
Who wants a Fresca?!
Oh, please. You're all a bunch of bitter fearmongers. Most firms not named Latham are doing well enough that they won't have to do something insanely drastic like suspend all new associate hiring.
And no, the lateral options out there are not going to be picked up in place of all law students. Let's not forget that most firms fired at most about 3% of their associates, probably the bottom 3%, but definitely not any potential rainmakers. The lateral market is the most watered down it's ever been. It's nothing but a bunch of low-billing corporate associates who will demand a higher salary than first years who can be put in profitable practice groups.
Summering at a firm that had increasing PPP in 2008. Offer is in the bag.
- Confident T14 2L
You can certainly tell the English and history majors who found no jobs and then went to law school. They either complain about grammar or fail to grasp basic business concepts.
One last time nimrods: Yes, there is a wide pool of lateral talent right now. However, without a 1st year class of associates this year, there will not be a pool of talent in a few years.
Oh, and 2Ls are still fucked.
Has anyone heard anything of the sort in Houston (or Texas generally)? Or has anyone heard anything about V&E or Bracewell (nationwide)?
lol @ 54 still living in denial.
Nobody should be so confident during these times. I was, and then I got a hard dose of reality. I graduated from a T14 in '08 and thought I had it made. Put simply...I was wrong. There's just nothing out there, folks.
Firms know they need to hire SOME 2Ls and 3Ls, the question is how many (or how few).
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
What does PWN stand for? Pussy Whipped Nerd? Probably not since anyone who goes to HLS has ever seen a vagina other than in a text book
W&C?
W&C?
I have heard that Houston firms suck while at the same time Houston firms treat everyone with dignity and respect. Houston is a puzzling place.
W&C?
Irell? IRELL? This is shocking and a big deal. Irell is doing great financially this year (check their PPP in 2008) and (together with Munger) held by many as the financially strongest in the SoCal area. Shocking.
tic tock tic tock, axes are falling everywhere ...
71 -- why are 2L in trouble? If anything, it's the 3L who are in trouble. Firms are not gonna no-offer a huge portion of their summer class b/c then what the hell are they gonna do for 2010? Worst case, they'll give offers to their 2L summers, and if things don't pick up by 2010, they'll extend start dates or rescind. There's no point in no-offering summers when firms can reserve the "option" of just rejecting them later in 2010 when there's more info available.
PWN is what anti-social internet dorks write anonymously on internet chat boards to give them a false sense self-confidence.
Irell? IRELL? This is shocking and a big deal. Irell is doing great financially this year (check their PPP in 2008) and (together with Munger) held by many as the financially strongest in the SoCal area. Shocking.
PWN is netspeak. Loosely translated, it's the rough equivalent of getting "owned," "demolished," "served," or otherwise having one's ass handed to oneself.
See "Kobe's 50 points pwned the Knicks."
Does that mean us Irell Summers are screwed?
LOL at all the 3Ls on here trying to reassure themselves by saying 2Ls have it the worst. All I can say is get used to ramen.
V24 Midlevel
1. The safest are talented 3rd-5th years.
2. Totally agree that despite all the talk of layoffs not being performance-based, the reality is performance enters into the choices in most situations.
3. Most firms haven't decided yet what to do with their incoming classes. Frankly, if I were a law student, I would apply for any clerkships that come available and look at prestigious government jobs. Don't rely 100% on an offer that may be rescinded at any time.
Irell? IRELL? This is shocking and a big deal. Irell is doing great financially this year (check their PPP in 2008) and (together with Munger) held by many as the financially strongest in the SoCal area. Shocking.
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
How will 1st year layoffs affect school employment rates?
Usually they'd be counted as "employed at graduation" but if they are canned by February shouldn't that count as unemployed 9 months after graduation?
All of Baker Botts' offers are confirmed in writing.
Its convenient, that the only 3Ls getting their offers rescinded are also the only 3Ls that can't prove they got an offer in the first place.
97 is right on. most texas firms give you the offer letter during the out-processing meeting the last day of the summer.
I had an oral offer from wachtell and it was rescinded! wtf???? when i call, they claim they never heard of me!!
72-
V&E 3L offers were just re-confirmed (in writing), with start dates in September (as early as the 8th), and the firm has already started sending reimbursements for 3L bar expenses. Everything seems to be on track.
No clue about Bracewell...
Oral offer?
You can't win friends with salad, and you can't frame an oral offer.
they wouldn't no offer a 1L would they?!?! i'm only a 1L!
-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa
pwnd is an internet-loser conjunction = "power-owned"
I'm ashamed of myself for knowing this. My high school bf played a lot of video games.
All of Baker Botts' offers are confirmed in writing.
Its convenient, that the only 3Ls getting their offers rescinded are also the only 3Ls that can't prove they got an offer in the first place.
102 - you must be pretty hot with a boyfriend like that
Current 2Ls will start work in fall/winter 2010, at which point they will be more desirable than more experienced attorneys who have been out of work for two years.
102 - wrong. "pwned" is a corruption of the word "owned" and has nothing to do with "power."
See http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwned
pwned.
Just because an offer is in writing doesn't mean it can't be rescinded. It's an offer for a job that is "at will."
The ship be sinking...
105 is correct. Firms don't want to be short-staffed when there is a recovery, even if the recovery is very modest and takes a long time.
@ 107. An offer in writing can be rescinded, but a person that received a written offer can actually prove that they had an offer in the first place, whereas a person that only received an "oral" offer can't provide proof of their offer.
--102
I repeatedly pwn myself until my hand gets numb.
ok, terrific
If my offer gets rescinded, I will jump off my roof.
nervous 1L- up until today I was pretty confident Ann Coulter was Michigan Law's worst alumni. My confidence has been shaken.
"All I can say is get used to ramen."
I love ramen, so I guess I'm in good shape.
-T8.5 3L
37, I concur...
Accord w/ 102
any word on OMM rescinding offers to incoming 2009 class, or delaying their start date until later in the year or 2010? or more layoffs?
Shit, I meant 106
- 116
85 -
No, the word you're thinking of is poaned. They are homonyms, so it is an easy mistake to make.
v&e is fine. fortunately, they have always been very conservatively managed and have very low leverage -- only 8 other firms have less leverage, according to amlaw. plus, relatively speaking, energy and texas are doing OK. finally, v&e had to fight for talent over the last couple years with the bubble. so if anything, they're gonna use this oppty to cut some fat (ie, 2nd and 3rd years taking up space who never should have been hired but for the bubble).
Mr. Ship Be Sinking -- he actually spelled his name "M-I-C-H-E-A-L", which only adds to his cachet IMO.
Another 3L
I got V&E once when I was in Dallas. Took three cycles of antibiotics to get rid of it. Do not drink the water down there.
This is fear-mongering bullshit. The overwhelming majority of V100 firms will not rescind offers. They will delay start dates, worst case scenario. Did it ever occur to you that firms are firing associates now to make room for their incoming classes? They also have far fewer summers this year. 3L offers are safe, but expect a delayed start date.
123 - As a rule, it's best to just avoid Dallas at all costs.
"The overwhelming majority of V100 firms will not rescind offers."
On what are you basing this assertion? Nothing, possibly?
Offers get revoked. Contracts get rescinded.
126; during prior downturns, firms tried to avoid revoking 3L offers. That being said, they won't hesitate to fire the incoming 3Ls after they've worked for 4 months. I think 3Ls are generally safe, but if the economy doesn't begin to recover in the beginning of 2010, watch out.
126- so far 0 V100 firms have rescinded and it's getting pretty late so I think that's a fair statement. Hopefully, my firm won't be among those who do rescind, if any do.
What's the latest we would expect a firm to rescind? The day before you start? March 1? What do we think?
128: Just curious, are you a practicing attorney or a law student? (Or neither, I suppose.)
-126
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
---hoping for Latham sized severance to feed my daughter
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
Please do a post re the OMM layoffs.
---hoping for Latham sized severance to feed my daughter
Have any 3Ls been given start dates yet, assuming offers have not been rescinded and excluding the already reported delayed start dates?
I don't believe the Irell story. Verbal offer = bullshit.
However, considering that the bastards didn't even give me a callback last fall, I sure hope it is true.
I'm a 3L with an offer from Baker Botts. If offers were rescinded I would likely to know about it. I've heard nothing of the sort.
What about all of the big Charlotte firms?
What about all of the big Charlotte firms?
I'm a 3L with an offer from Baker Botts. I've heard nothing of this.
101, U R A DOUCHE
Milbank gave us an official start date (October 2009) in January. Maybe they jumped the gun, as I don't know how they will have room for all of us.
I fully expect a phone call or a letter in the next few months.
135 - What office?
133, if you're asking in general, I have the same start date as I was given back in August with my offer... from a firm with no freezes, cuts, rescissions, or (known) layoffs
129 - It's not "late" for firms to rescind 3L offers until after their 3L start dates, so it's pretty silly to say that. First years aren't starting for over six months; six months ago, nobody thought we'd see the dow below 7,000, so it's impossible to know where the economy will be at that time and what firms' needs will be. If I'm a hiring partner at a big firm, I make sure to tell my people to be noncomittal in any conversations they have with 3L's, and I review the situation periodically. If I feel the need to rescind offers, I don't do it until, at the earliest, August.
129 - It's not "late" for firms to rescind 3L offers until after their 3L start dates, so it's pretty silly to say that. First years aren't starting for over six months; six months ago, nobody thought we'd see the dow below 7,000, so it's impossible to know where the economy will be at that time and what firms' needs will be. If I'm a hiring partner at a big firm, I make sure to tell my people to be noncomittal in any conversations they have with 3L's, and I review the situation periodically. If I feel the need to rescind offers, I don't do it until, at the earliest, August.
Hey, whoever is masquerading as me (@ 110), it's a person "who" not a person "that"
Besides which, that post wasn't topical to my previous one.
Between the grammar and my high school hotness days (as evidenced by geeky bf), I clearly am one fine piece. But really, I dare anyone from a top school to tell me they were popular in high school and dated the prom king.
Dow will be back at 14,000 by Jan 2010. Everyone will be fine.
I hear that 145. The whole reason we work so hard is precisely so that we can look down our noses at the people who were popular in high school... Or am I the only one with lingering insecurity issues? Would make sense considering how worked up we all get on an unsubstantiated, highly suspect, rumor like this.
146 -- I think you accidentally transposed two digits; Dow will be back at 14,000 by Jan "2100." In January 2010, the DOW will be, by my estimate, at about 4000.
I'll float the Baker Botts 3ls until the economcy recovers.
-Jim Baker
"In January 2010, the DOW will be, by my estimate, at about 4000."
This sounds overly optimistic. I'd say that it'll be at around 1500-2000.
147, I was the most popular person in my high school. I LOVED high school; I wish I could go back and do it over again in a heartbeat, because it was so awesome. No responsibilities, plenty of free time, dozens and dozens of friends always looking to go out and have a good time every night of the week, adoration from teachers for being so intelligent, pretty girls all insecure about growing into their bodies and willing to do absolutely filthy things if you'd just smile at them in the hallways. High school was basically like what I'd expect heaven to be. Real life is working so much you don't have time to spend with any of your friends from high school. It sucks.
147, I was the most popular person in my high school. I LOVED high school; I wish I could go back and do it over again in a heartbeat, because it was so awesome. No responsibilities, plenty of free time, dozens and dozens of friends always looking to go out and have a good time every night of the week, adoration from teachers for being so intelligent, pretty girls all insecure about growing into their bodies and willing to do absolutely filthy things if you'd just smile at them in the hallways. High school was basically like what I'd expect heaven to be. Real life is working so much you don't have time to spend with any of your friends from high school. It sucks.
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
W&C
147 here.
152, either you're telling the truth, and I hate you on principle. Or that's a particularly brilliant satirical commentary on exactly the kind of mentality I had hoped to leave behind. In any event, at least I feel like my life has some upward momentum.
You also failed mention whether you are particularly well-situated at this point, which may only serve to underscore my broader point that people who have it easy early on often fail to develop the emotional touhgness necessary to truly excel. Its a generalization, certainly, with numerous exceptions but one that has enough basis in fact that I am warranted in stating it, at least on the anonymous ATL forum, festering troll den that it is.
Unless people specify which office, from now on, you should assume that people are referring to the Bratislava office of whatever firm is referenced.
My boyfriend was on the prom court and threw the election to his best friend, who won prom king-- does that count? (I ended up at a T5 law school, btw-- probably unlike 151-152) Nevertheless, I was also friends with all the other AP kids and had a definite nerd streak. To me, law school was more like high school in the terrible way people think of high school.
133 - I'm a 3L with a September start date confirmed. Like 144 my firm hasn't had any freezes, cuts, or layoffs, and I was hired as a 3L without having been a summer associate.
not the FIRST (or the last) to worry 24/7 about my biglaw offer being rescinded
Another post about 3L rescissions, another comments section worth jack shit.
I call BS on the Irell story.
I'm going to be an entering 2L this summer, and they have already twice confirmed within the last month that they will allow me to have a 19 week (NINETEEN WEEK) summer program with them.
That doesn't exactly jive with the "financial troubles" tag. So, either my summer program is about to get significantly chopped, or there is something more to this 3L verbal offer story.
As many V 100 law firms have let go large numbers of staff, isn't it possible that the incoming class of 3Ls, may have to pick up some of the work staffers, particularly paralegals, did in the past? In addition, it was mentioned (here) earlier this year, that firms still want to bring in the first years inorder that they might discover who amoung them are the firm's future "stars." I would think that notion might give the 3Ls some protection. No?
131 - You're going to feed your daughter severance? That doesn't sound very tasty.
I'm a 3L with a Baker Botts offer. They've already reimbursed my bar fees/paid my Barbri bill. I've heard nothing of any of this.
Why would a firm spend money on 2L's who don't do anything?
It seems to me that the most likely firms to rescind 3L offers are the firms whose partnership ranks are filled with laterals. These are less likely to care about the hit to recruiting that rescinding offers to 3Ls will cause because they don’t rely as heavily on developing associates to become future partners. Also, there is likely less loyalty to the firm among the partnership ranks, so these firms will have to try harder to maintain PPP levels in order to retain their partners (e.g., CWT). Firms that have grown exponentially over the past decade tend to fall into this category.
Firms whose partnership ranks are composed mainly of individuals who came up through the firms’ associates ranks seem less likely to rescind offers to 3Ls. These firms care more about reputational damage because, while any moron can do doc review for years, these firms’ future partners are coming from their associate ranks and they are thus more concerned with talent. To these firms, the concern of a long-term hit to reputation probably outweighs a small, short-term gain in PPP.
3Ls are likely most safe at firms that have high PPP and whose partnership ranks are comprised mostly of partners that were former associates with the firm. Even if these firms take a significant hit to PPP, PPP of around $2M are probably still enough in this economy to keep partners—especially those that came up through the firm and have some degree of loyalty. Along these lines, Cravath’s large percentage drop in PPP will help these firms retain their partners. Most partners agree that Cravath is a great firm that has been able to weather many storms and will weather this one as well. Furthermore, partners realize that Cravath’s PPP will be near the top of the list once the financial meltdown finally ends, whenever that may be. Partners at firms that have high PPP that took a huge hit are likely comforted by the fact that their PPP are still astronomically high and that they are in the same boat as Cravath on this one.
The name of the game with every action taken by law firms is retention of partners. Once a firm starts losing partners, the long-term viability of the firm comes into questions and even more partners leave. This can result in either the death of the firm, as we’ve seen with a number of firms over the past year, or in the remaining firm being a shell of its former self. While no one can predict the future, I’d be especially worried if I were a 3L going to a firm that had seen a number of partners leave over the past year. Likewise, I’d have a greater level of concern if I were going to a firm that has fired first-year associates, as this shows that they are less concerned with the reputational hit this will cause than those that haven’t fired first-year associates.
No worries, fellas! Obama is creating 1.5 million construction worker jobs. So let's all go get our hardhats -- those holes won't dig and then fill themselves!
I work for a mid size firm in Syracuse and we are shutting down our summer program. The 2L's will get letters in the mail soon.
my irell offer--even from OCI--was written, not verbal.
The authoritative entry on "pwn" and everything else:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Pwn
Thank you 173. Finally someone who sees that tax cuts, not government spending tax revenue, will spur the the private market into providing necessary services like infrastructure improvements, education and health care.
Really?
Is this some kind of ATL page-view scam? Can MysTTTal or LaTTT actually produce anyone at either of these firms that received a verbal offer of employment without written confirmation?
This is just silly.
I am convinced that firms will start revoking offers this month. Once they realize that the economy will not improve -- and that it will likely worsen -- by 2010, firms will have no choice but to revoke approximately 50% of offers to incoming associates.
Don't forget that current 3L's were hired at the PEAK of the market (October 2007).
121 -
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/nationwide_layoff_watch_latham_1.php
I would love to see some actual, tangible proof of firms rescinding offers to 3Ls rather than relying on people that claim their 'oral offers' were rescinded. But hey, that's just me...
"Don't forget that current 3L's were hired at the PEAK of the market (October 2007). "
Wha...? Current 3Ls received offers last fall, no? As in 2008.
Perhaps you mean that current 3Ls received offers of summer employment in October 2007, but that's not when they were hired.
Irell LA doesn't even interview 3Ls, do they? They didn't at my school this fall...
Rules of changed, we all know nothing. Stop the conjecture.
W&C
I really have a hard time believing the Irell story - their PPP actually increased in 2008, they are litigation and IP-focused, and they don't have much leverage. If any firm can weather this storm, they seem pretty well positioned to. Can we get any kind of confirmation/denial from someone at Irell about whether this story is BS?
The most important thing is to be happy, not money. The key is not to go in over your head in debt and then your expectations are too great. Law has become only about money, not about helping others and making a difference in this world. I believe this is why Obama has become President to make people go back to basics and not be so greedy. 35 years ago a good salary was $100,000. Who needs $2.2 millions, why can't this be shared around with all. Why to firms like Latham have to lay over 400 people and put them out of work with no hopes of finding another job? How about job sharing and also being hapy with less money so everyone can stay employed. Greed is terrible. Find a job which will make you happy, and you will be satisfied with your life. Law is not the only answer for success. Help others and good will follow for you. Good luck to you all, make yourselves happy. Try public service or give of your time pro bono for people who really have problems and can;t even afford rent or food on their tables.
The truth of the matter is that most firms are "continually reviewing" their situations, with regard to current staff levels as well as outstanding offers of employment to both 2Ls and 3Ls. It is likely there will be offers rescinded by firms which find themselves in particularly challenging and worsening economic circumstances, although I suspect most (not all) firms will honor those which already have been accepted. It also would appear reasonable to speculate that firms which have engaged in multiple rounds of layoffs are more likely to rescind offers to law students. However, it is all speculation at this point.
length of summer programs are being reduced by 1/4.
FIRST to blindly panic for no reason because ATL told me to
Blindly panic? Are you joking? As a second year associate I can tell you that there is virtually zero work right now. So I don't see how my firm will be able to handle incoming associates (around 70) in the fall.
Word is that they will look at reviews from the summer and make cuts accordingly. I feel bad but when there is no work, why would a firm hire more people?
187 Brush up on your history, socialism failed.
189's comment may be true. just happened to someone I know. not reduced in number of summers, but reduced in the length of the summer.
Anyone else feel like smashing Elie's fat, smug, and ugly visage with a rock? ATL is dancing a jig while its readers burn.
In RE: 5:58 Update
Perfect legal disclaimer. Are 3Ls technically lawyers?
If not, then the response from Baker-Botts is semantically null in the context of the issue.
"But on the other hand, firms know that they will need first years. Firms don't want to pay people who will not have any work, but they also can't afford to eviscerate entire class years. The first years of today are the mid-levels of tomorrow (and some of them will be the rainmakers of the future)."
I am flabbergasted at the thought that a firm cannot afford to skip hiring for one class year. It is ludicrous that a firm with hundreds of attorneys will be hurt by not hiring for one year.
First, people retire or leave firms at different years so its not like the firm will take a huge hit when an entire class retires at the same time.
Second, if the firm actually felt they needed more attorneys they could double the hiring at a later date to make up the difference.
I refuse to believe that firms of these sizes would actually be hurt if they did not hire at all this year. At worst their reputation declines in the slightest but even then there are 20 people willing to take the spot of 1 person who declines an offer.
If law firms had any business sense they would take a cue from the rest of the business world and institute a blanket hiring freeze for one year.
194, did you forget to take your meds today, son? Elie > than you.
This entire thread is rife with self-interested, self-deluding prats. The 1Ls, 2Ls, the 3Ls, the juniors, the mid-levels, the seniors, the partners. No one is immune--all are equally pathetic.
Yo, Elie. How could you not comment on the gaping hole in Baker's comment? The said "The firm has not rescinded any offers to any lawyers." So long as 3Ls aren't "lawyers" (since they haven't taken/passed the bar), BB's statement says nothing about what the firm has done vis-a-vis its 3Ls.
195 has the right idea here.
Not only is Elie a blogger, he's a legal blogger. He's the lowest form of life on the planet. He+this site both feed off of and substantially contribute to our collective despair. How is he better than anyone?
186 - Actually, Both Irell and Baker Botts increased PPP for 2008.
When someone talks about the Obama Administration's "shovel-ready" projects the only imagine I have in my mind is John Wayne Gacy who always carried a shovel and a clown suit in the trunk of his Dodge. Now that man was always shovel ready.
@163: No, that doesn't count. But I'm just bitter because I'm stuck at a T3.
-102
Oh, and my geeky hs bf ended up as a bartender, which I have to say is better than a prom king. At least he gives me free drinks when law school is sucking (that would be ALWAYS)
BB's carefully crafted response ("lawyers") belies what's happened: 3Ls' offers have bee rescinded!
So it's pretty much settled then: this post is a load of bullsh@t. No one can confirm because there is nothing to confirm.
I know - I'll send an email to Elie saying that I had a "verbal" 3L offer at WLRK/S&C/Cravath "rescinded." Let the panic ensue!
50: if u r hot and willing to raw dog every partner in sight u may still have chance at a career in biglaw
192 - Unrestrained Capitalism hasn't been too hot the last couple of years.
you all will be working for legal aid or some obama job corp
pwned is not a conjunction.
pwned is a derivative of "owned," which means "serviced" or "you handed that 3 iron what it deserved buckley"
the "p" replaced the "o" due to video game 1337 speak. if you dont know what 1337 speak is, just know that pwned means owned, now power-owned.
loser
UPDATE: THIS POST IS FEAR-MONGERING BULLSHIT.
it is amazing what you can do with hamburger helper....
coke on a monday
So all it takes is a couple of people to email a tip to Elie that a firm is rescinding offers to 3Ls, and he'll run with it?
On a related note, today's terrorism threat level: orange. Wear your gas masks, people.
Another awesome ATL post that is completely unsubstantiated. Must be pretty easy to sit back and make up stories to write about. It seems half the stories on ATL these days tend not to be true.
Irell rules. I am going to summer there, and I am pumped.
Comment removed by moderator.
All stories to ATL have been made from email tips. It's not Elie's fault that a bunch of douchebag kids without offers are trying to stir up fear to make their peers who have offers scared they are losing them.
"pwned is not a conjunction.
pwned is a derivative of "owned," which means "serviced" or "you handed that 3 iron what it deserved buckley"
the "p" replaced the "o" due to video game 1337 speak. if you dont know what 1337 speak is, just know that pwned means owned, now power-owned.
loser"
i would contend the fact that you know this, care enough to explain the mechanics of 1337, and call me a loser for being misinformed makes you also a loser. kind of the "takes one to know one" concept at work.
-102
ummm. . . if the rumors were substantiated by associates at the offfices then it is substantiated. Why else would an associate email ATL to tell them this information if it wasn't true. And I'm willing to bet that none of the rescinded offers were from kids looking to work in IP.
Where is the letter rescinding the offers to those who supposedly had verbal offers?
Fear is contagious. I'm fucking scared. Thanks Elie.
I cannot believe that the "update" is after the jump. Wouldn't you want it to be a little more noticeable that half of the story is basically unsubstantiated?
What firm didn't confirm an accetance of an offer in writing? At most firms you get an oral offer (usually on the last day of your summer) and when you accept the offer you get a letter from the firm confirming your acceptance of the offer. It's the same thing as when you got an offer to be a summer associate. They called you and orally offered you the summer position. When you accept the offer you get a letter confirming it. I refuse to believe that Baker Botts did not follow this practice. All large and even medium sized firms follow this practice.
Well, the 6:51 update sure makes the situation clear: either Mystal and his source are full of shit, or Baker Botts is. Ball's in your court, Elie -- time to cough up some supporting facts or cut this sensationalist nonsense out for a while.
225 is right. The rest of this is bullshit. There is no such thing as an oral offer with no writing confirming it.
Did they just tell summers they gave oral offers to that have no accepted that they no longer have the option to work there? This post is confusing. Because didn't the NALP deadline pass on that? What the hell!!!
This unsubstantiated post is the "mortgage backed security" of the once proud ATL - unless Ellie performs some due diligence or fact-checking, this site is going to sh!te.
Above the jump: Rescinded offers!! More below the jump.
Below the jump: Actually there were none!
Yeah, real nice site you're running here.
why would irell need to retract offers when they just raised salaries?
http://www.jdjournal.com/2009/03/02/irell-manella-announces-salary-increases/
I'm also a 3l with an offer from Baker botts and have heard nothing about a rescission.
I'm also a 3l with an offer from Baker botts and have heard nothing about a rescission.
Not sure what 231 is about (that story is old), but all Irell associates just received an email confirmation from a partner that this story is totally untrue and no offers were rescinded to any 3Ls. If any of my irellatives are still at their computers at 7:15, they will confirm.
To 225
Just to follow up on your comment. Baker Botts did not give offers until all associates had completed their summer clerkships (clerks worked 6-10 weeks). As a result, the week after the entire class had finished, the firm made calls indicating your offer. The day the the calls were made, we all were sent letters in the mail giving the offer in writing and indicating that we had to accept by November 15th. As a result, our letters were mailed the day of the call and we all got them within a couple days. Once a summer officially accepted, we were again sent a letter outlining our acceptance, graduation bonuses etc. There were no "oral offers" that did not have a corresponding letter. This claim is absoultely false.
To 225
Just to follow up on your comment. Baker Botts did not give offers until all associates had completed their summer clerkships (clerks worked 6-10 weeks). As a result, the week after the entire class had finished, the firm made calls indicating your offer. The day the the calls were made, we all were sent letters in the mail giving the offer in writing and indicating that we had to accept by November 15th. As a result, our letters were mailed the day of the call and we all got them within a couple days. Once a summer officially accepted, we were again sent a letter outlining our acceptance, graduation bonuses etc. There were no "oral offers" that did not have a corresponding letter. This claim is absolutely false.
Two weeks ago, Sidley offered incoming clerks a choice between two start dates in mid-September or mid-October. The notice said that our $50,000 clerkship bonus would be deposited on the first payday after our start date.
235, that sounds right. I know a lot of firms give an oral offer and if the summer accepts on the spot they simply get the confirmation letter in the mail a week later. Otherwise, if they wait to accept then firms usually follow the practice you stated. If a firm did not do this, any 3L with an "oral only" offer with no confirmation of acceptance should make sure they really did get an offer (and wasnt making it up in their head).
Hey ATL,
Why not a post of how to make 3L's feel more secure in their offers. I mean seriously. There is no such thing in biglaw as an oral only offer and acceptance. All friends I know have firm offers in writing. And then if the firms fired first years, maybe one should be more worried. Also, a post with advice on when 3Ls can inquire about start dates would be good advice. I know that we recieved offer letters and they stated to contact the recruiting gal concerning start dates. I know it's still early, but I would hope that they would let us know by April? Can we inquire before then? Any real advice instead of blatant fear mongering brought on by discruntled 3Ls telling you lies would be appreciated.
3L with an offer at a firm that hasn't frozen salaries or laid people off.
234, "irrelatives"? really?? you are such a douche.
What about the Kirkland rumors?
What about advice for practice areas incoming 3Ls should focus towards so as not to be a first year who gets laid off 4 months after being hired (like douchey Latham did. . . V10 firm my ass!)
239, you really need to grow a pair.
242 -- consider structured finance.
242, oh brother, they're paying him through his second year. I'd be happy to get a deal like that.
Law students need to figure out a back up plan asap.
The legal market meltdown sure equalizes things between tier one law schools and other, lesser ranked schools -- students from both are now shut out.
234 - I can confirm the email. Irell is maintaining that they have not rescinded any offers to anyone. What is the source for this info anyway?
Source of info = 3L with verbal offer = FLAME
I'm sick of people saying how 3Ls feel entitled.
Fuck you. If you were sitting around during March of your 3L year and people had been talking about your offer being rescinded, you would have been shitting it to, so shut the fuck up.
Fuck you, abovethelaw. I'm done with this shit. I've had enough fear mongering. There was no basis for this story. I'm out.
-3L with a biglaw offer (not rescinded yet)
250 - well said. These senior associates act like they were never 3L's, and like they never took advantage of the summer associate programs.
So, I second 250 -- shut the fuck up senior associates!
Remember to wear push-ups on your first few days... only way you will add value and get noticed in a good way-- otherwise you are just an overpaid admin....oh wait, we have admins for that-- on second thought you are all screwed....
Guys in my high school used to give offers to take girls to prom and then rescind them, it was no big deal. The funny thing is that they were totally willing to go down on the guy if he called them back later for a date (you think you're going to be any different) -- get some respect and give it to the man and retract your acceptance and then set up your own shop and kick their butts, because we all know you are worth more than the 160+K you were offered -- aren't you?
ATL: You should start a hot or not poll so that would be associates could gauge whether their offer will be rescinded based upon their assets
250, 252 -- Nope. Those of us that entered law school a few years back knew that a law firm job was an opportunity, not an entitlement. You forgot about this, entered law school to chase the almighty dollar, and now you're feeling the pain. Sorry about that.
212 is the only comment worth reading!
AGREED WHAT IS UP WITH ALL OF THE FEAR MONGERING ON THIS SITE??? MANY OF THESE STORIES ARE PATENTLY UNTRUE.
I'm waiting on John McCain to tell us whether this is good news for him or not.
256- Would you feel entitled to a job that you were offered, that you accepted, and that you relied upon in turning down other job offers?
256 - Those of you who entered law school "a few years back" paid on average probably one-third less to do so. We only feel "entitled" because there's no job opportunity that makes it possible to pay off $150,000 in debt without living in your parents' basement.
Fortunately for everyone in or entering the profession, this economic situation is forcing the hands of all those law schools who for years raised tuition well beyond inflation without a second thought. That model is no longer viable in this economic climate, and if it gets much worse, law schools will have to consider seriously scrolling back existing tuition rates to keep class levels stable.
The first contraction is in the job market. The second, coming contraction will be the in education market.
256: I am a 3L who did not feel entitled to a 160k job on entering law school, and feels incredibly lucky and grateful to have received one this year. But of *course* I am incredibly worried about its being rescinded -- this is not entitlement. Because the legal industry has such a bizarre set of rules for hiring -- what industry hires so far in advance?? -- we know if we lose our offer, we are SOL and there goes our opportunity. If I lose this, I'll go back to teaching, or marketing, or any one of the several jobs I've had over the last 15 years, but I did not go to law school so that I could teach high school kids. I went to law school to be a lawyer, so my worry is deep here. That is *not* entitlement. 250 was expressing panic -- not yelling about how he was owed a job.
And because some of us are not in fact 25 year old kids who can simply move back in with mom & dad (some of us, like me, are career changers with an actual life already) that concern is intensified. Luckily, I have little debt, thanks to a scholarship, but with two a family to support and actual real life bills, a salary at some point would sure as hell be nice. Doesn't "need" to be 160k -- but I'm so close to graduation that losing an offer now will mean unemployment for a while. That's the scary part.
"but with two a family to support and actual real life bills"
Damn, shouldn't cut and paste within comments I am posting. Ignore the "two" randomly in that sentence and the sentence will make sense.
-- 262 (who is not Elie, despite the random typo)
Hey Elie, are you going to post a retraction today, then? Above the jump? Quit being such a hack.
This post reminds me of the "Accept Your Offers 1-17" posts. If not completely made up, this post is based on one or two totally unsubstantiated bullshit tips. And Elie ran with them.
Lat -- I understand that Elie is keeping the traffic up, but look at how he's doing it. People used to trust you. It's amazing that people still read this blog -- a testament to you, really. But they won't for much longer once there is a better alternative.
ATL - - Elie needs to be WAY better than this. Tighten the ship or we be jumping.
261 - Law school has been unreasonably expensive for over 20 years. The people I knew graduating in years like 88, 89, 90 all had massive loans proportionate to what salaries and costs were then.
It's not the case that you 160K'ers are the first generation to see a need to earn that kind of money just to pay your loans. Lawyers from the classes of the late 80s and early 90s also used much of what was then their 82K starting salary (equivalent of 140K today) to pay their loans.
In fact, adjusted for inflation, you're paid more than they were with loans that are actually smaller when also adjusted for inflation.
Oh and 256 - I knew plenty of people who regarded their 82K jobs as "entitlements" for what they considered to be a lifetime of hard work occurring before they were 25.
267 - Provide examples of how much debt your classmates had.
Though obviously a state school, Boalt's tuition over the years: https://www.law.berkeley.edu/alumni/gift/tuition.html
Note this addition to the post (also flagged above the fold):
Further Update: Irell sent around this communication internally:
From: Varnen, Craig
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:08 PM
Subject: Above the Law report
A number of you may have seen or heard of a report that appeared on Above the Law yesterday that I&M is rescinding offers to 3Ls. That story is false. We are not rescinding our offers to 3Ls. We do not know the source of this false rumor. We are not interested in being drawn into an ATL rumor-fest, but we did want you to have this information to allay any concerns.
Craig