Interview Tips: Biglaw to Small Law (Part II)
[Ed. Note: There are a lot of associates out there who have been recently laid off from Biglaw jobs. Many of them are trying to get jobs at small to medium sized firms. But the mechanics of getting one of those precious jobs are a lot different from what people experienced during on-campus interviewing season. Therefore, Above the Law asked somebody who knows the game for ten tips on going from Biglaw to small law. Check out part I here.]
I work for a small law firm in a major metropolitan area that is in the enviable position of hiring right now. We are getting a flood of BigLaw resumes. I get to hear all of you pedigreed, ambitious, driven, hard-working and talented attorneys crash and burn without even knowing you’re doing it. Here is my advice on how to actually get the job, especially if it’s with a smaller, scrappier law firm than you’re used to. In no particular order:
6. Know Your Audience. My law firm is small, old, and is known for specific practice areas. The smarter applicants come into the interview already knowing what these practice areas are, but an excellent way to set yourself apart is to make yourself aware of what cases the firm is involved in right now and to mention how your particular skills will assist in those cases. Fire up Google, look up the law firm, look for pending cases, look up those cases on the courthouse website, see what’s going on.
7. A Multi-Stage Interview Does Not Mean You’re Doing Well. Many people seem to assume that the longer an interview takes, the better they must be doing. Not necessarily so. The hiring attorneys may have scheduling problems and might have to come in late or leave early. They also might do this to see if you answer one way in the first hour and a different way in the third hour, depending upon whom is doing the asking. The smaller the law firm, the more likely they will have a “consensus” decision-making process, and believe me, after the interview is over, they all compare notes.
Some additional notes on respect, after the jump.
8. Show Respect for Women. Women will be interviewing you. Get over it. Do not assume she’s from HR - she might be a senior partner. Do not pretend like she’s your girlfriend. Do not assume she slept her way to the top. If you must compliment her on her attire, keep it G-rated, even if you’re a female yourself. I heard one female candidate compliment the interviewer on how well her business suit fit around her bustline. Just because you’re a woman too does not make that comment appropriate. If you’re a male candidate being interviewed by a male attorney, refrain from ogling any female attorneys who might pass by the conference room, because she might be that interviewer’s wife, girlfriend, sister or daughter. Smaller law firms tend to be way more conscious about discrimination and harassment, and if your prior BigLaw culture tolerated that sort of thing, this law firm will not.
9. Avoid Talking On Your Cell Phone Between Interviews. If after the hiring attorneys leave the room you call up your friend to moan about how humiliated you are at having to interview at my law firm, people will know. My firm will then promptly put you out of your misery and not hire you. Secretaries, paralegals, associates, partners, we all actually talk to each other. If you must bitch about the interview, text it instead. Better yet - don’t do it at all.
10. Get Used To Living Small. As a BigLaw refugee myself, I know exactly what kind of work environment you used to have, and you will not have it at a smaller law firm. It’s a painful adjustment. Try not to let it show during the interview. As the attorneys escort you from the lobby, refrain from looking horrified at how shabby the surroundings are, because the attorneys are watching your demeanor to see if you’ll fit in.
These tips go all the way to 11. Humility Goes a Long Way.
If missed part I, check it out here.
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First!
Now my life is complete.
RE:8 BigLaw doesn't tolerate discrimination either. The person who wrote all of these interview tips is fucking retarted.
thirdsty
this writer is an insufferable douche.
"many people seem assume"
Nice Touch
Show respect for women and try not looking horrified at how shabby the surroundings are. This article must be a joke.
Are these tips aimed at people who flunked out of toddlers finishing school?
#8 is completely inaccurate and undermines entire ridiculous article. Smaller firms are exponentially more tolerant of harassment and unprofessional conduct in the workplace. The author has obviously guzzled the small-firm-is-better Kool Aid.
As a woman in biglaw I had no idea I was an endangered species.
12. Don't Piss or Shit on the Floor. If you have to go to the bathroom, don't do so on the floor. Ask where the restroom is. Even if you used to occasionally take a piss in the sink in the kitchen on your floor while you were in Biglaw, do not do so during your Smalllaw interview. My colleagues and I know how urine smells and we will wonder why you are standing in front of the sink with your penis hanging out. Even if you think that it might be good to impress an associate by shitting in his recycling bin, this isn't like your old Biglaw firm, so we won't be impressed.
thy guy makes small/medium-law look bad
While I work at a smaller firm, I can't imagine that Biglaw champions the motto "don't know your audience".
Why do small firms have to be shabby?
The author probably lives in the basement in his mother's house in Gowanus. Die of AIDS you insufferable douche.
I understand the whole respect for women thing in principle, but isn't that kind of unreasonable given that they're objectively less intelligent and burdened with the billable-time-destroying burden of child-bearing?
Well played, 10.
10 - awesome
4: The correct term would be "author" not "writer." Diction anyone?
Also, many of you would probably benefit from these pieces of advice. Based on all the comments on this website many Biglaw attorneys are ridiculously arrogant about their schools and firms. A reminder to tone it down is needed.
So, during the interview, I should or should not point at things and laugh until tears stream down my face and land on my Brioni suit and Ferragamo loafers?
10,
Dead on.
13: leave a tip. in small law firms where people are not paid that well, it is often customary for a rich, bigtime lawyer to leave some cash behind to people you interview with. If you cannot find a tip jar on the attorney's desk, leave it at the corner of the desk.
@10 - You are hired. Your first mission, to shit on Mystal's desk and whoever wrote this article.
Number 10- That is the first time I have laughed out loud at my desk in weeks.
Number 10- That is the first time I have laughed out loud at my desk in weeks.
They also might do this to see if you answer one way in the first hour and a different way in the third hour, depending upon whom is doing the asking.
__________________________________________
Any firm that is not seriously considering a candidate but nonetheless keeps them around interrogating them for hours on end is Doucheland. Stop playing games with people and wasting their time just because you can.
Seems like Mr. smalllaw is over-compensating for a small dick... Although he is doing it about as good as most BigLaw smallpricks!
17, this guy is more arrogant than most on here. Also, most on here are often joking. this guy is serious.
7 - no they are aimed at ATL comment-whores. same difference.
Why do I get the feeling from these comments that the person giving the advice about NOT APPEARING to have disdain for the size and prestige of the firm actually has quite a bit of disdain him/herself.
Especially, see comments 9 and 10. This person focuses way too much on the small firm's perceived inferiority. Here's a tip for everyone, including the author of the above tips:
PRESTIGE IS BULLSHIT. You are not a lesser person because you don't work at an AmLaw 100 firm. Please, for the love of god . . . stop perpetuating this bullshit.
I don't know . . . maybe too many lawyers had parents that didn't give them enough praise when they were kids. Maybe they're all trying to find self-worth elsewhere. However, trust me when I say this - the prestige associated with having fancy big firm business cards is fleeting and hollow. I don't want to sound all self-helpy, but . . . look inside and figure out what makes you a good person. Try deriving your self-worth from within. Don't tie up your entire existence with bullshit external indicators.
If you want money, great. Go get money for the sake of having money and the ability to use it to improve your lifestyle. Don't want money because you think others will respect you more. They won't. Those that will aren't worth whatever money you have.
If you want respect, great. Go get respect by behaving in a way that will demonstrate you deserve respect. Don't tie yourself up with a respected institution and assume respect will flow from it. It won't. Those that respect you because of your job/school/address/etc. aren't worth whatever respect you engender.
If you want to be happy, great. Go get happy by figuring out what you love in life. No one loves prestige for prestige's sake. It is never a good in and of itself. It is only a means to an end . . . a very hollow end.
That is all.
- Someone who spent many years thinking about this
I hope the small firm lawyers are impressed by my 3500 sq ft, wife, and Lexis.
20, solid advice, but I have a quick question- Is it appropriate to ask the associate/partner to make change if all I have is $100s?
10 - Awesome idea. I want to try one.
13. Do not praise Hitler. First, if you like Hitler, you should reconsider your position. Second, even if you still like him, you should not mention it during the interviews. There are Jewish people in small law, you know, and they are particularly offended by praise of Hitler. But, also, don't just assume that because your interviewer is not Jewish, that he or she would be comfortable with you praising Hitler. You should be HUMBLE, and keep the Hitler praise at home.
I read that at first as: "[Ed. Note: There are a lot of assholes out there who have been recently laid off from Biglaw jobs."
31=FAIL
10 is comment of the week, at least. Nice work.
That is a big wife you have, 29.
I usually bring in a box of stray cats to interviews at small firms and at various points during the meeting pull one out and throw it against the wall or at a secretary.
So is the phrase "festering TTT" a "do" or "don't" ?
14. Do not send invoice us for your time in the interview. We know that Biglaw taught you that clients are willing to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for you to sit in a warehouse staring at documents until your eyes pop out of your head. Small law firms, however, do not have that kind of budget and could not possibly afford to pay your hourly fee charged by your former employer. Even if in Biglaw you were accustomed to personally bililng partners every time they wanted to say hello, restrain yourself.
29 - Is it your wife or your Lexis that is 3500 square feet? Since you're from Texas, I assume you're referring to your wife. I'm not impressed. Also, I have Lexis, but since I access it through the Internet, I'm not sure how many square feet it is. Perhaps you meant Lexus. If so, I am impressed by a 3500 square foot Lexus. The gas must be really expensive though.
These are great tips for complete idiots. Here are some more.
13. Don't tell your interviewer about the total contempt that you had for their firm before you needed a job there.
14. Also, don't ask whether the interviewer knows they are working at a TTT.
This is what happens when you look for differences where none exist.
29 has a huge wife.
<3 10
Why is everyone in Texas illiterate and married to humongous women?
this economy reveals how everyone, no matter how prestigious and elite, is human. maybe biglaw will wake up and start recruiting real legal talent now ?? maybe biglaw will look to the small firm model and finally realize that gluttony and waste is NOT good business?!
I second comment #8. This guy's "tip #8" is ridiculous. Attorneys from BigLaw are MUCH MUCH MUCH more aware of sexual harrasment issues.
I was appalled at the degree of tolerance for sexual harrasment during my 1L summer associate position at SmallLaw. Plus everyone was a Republican.
31, that was an epic fail. never try that again
This was a joke, right?
4500 sq ft, wife, a pool and an Acura.
Prestigious in Dallas.
10 and 29 are the best comments EVER!!!!
i just shat in my pants
To the author: Jealous much?
Love,
Biglaw associate (who wears Armani)
When did 3500 sq ft wives become all the rage?
45, I doubt biglaw will start recruiting ambulance chasers or oTTThers, if that's what you mean. By the way, biglaw is still a good business model and is not going anywhere. Don't think it's over just because the economy has forced some layoffs.
Wait, so I have to respect women, but what about minorities? He didn't say anything about minorities. I'm assuming that at smalllaw it's still ok to use the word negro, right?
What a shitload of fuck.
Plenty of small firms have quite nice offices and aren't shabby. Plenty of small firms pay decently (e.g. start associates at 100k+). Small firms tend to be *much* more forgiving of sexual harassment.
You guys are such humorless, empty individuals. It is scary.
I lie among you, the overwhelming stench of my rotting corpse infests your nostrils, the bile rises in your throat, fear, disgust, all mingle in a gestalt of rising terror. I am the Carcass of Law.
Who cares? The Dow is up four straight days. There will be no more layoffs.
So I can't walk into my interview with a female slave attached to a leash and make her sit in the corner?
very few people working in small and medium sized firms are jealous of BigLaw or have a complex about it. [the author might though]
A lot of people at these firms are there by choice not because they couldnt cut in BigLaw or couldnt get the job.
A lot of the partners in these firms:
Think they are better than your BigLaw partner
Make more money than your BigLaw partner
Are bigger tools and just as greedy as your BigLaw partner
Also the whole lifestyle thing is BS [from my experience with litigation]. If your at a good small or medium firm you will still be working a lot of hours. Deadlines still have to be met and the work still needs to be done.
My advice:
Your experience counts more than your pedigree
Your personality is just as important as your experience
Your ability to work long hours is not nearly as important as your ability to work efficiently
Ability to answer some of the dumbest interview questions you have ever heard becomes insanley important. And no, the other people in the room have no idea why that partner asks the question, because his answer as to why will be as dumb as your answer to the question.
10 is my favorite comment EVER. I was talking to someone in my office and had to pretend I was stifling a sneeze to avoid laughing out loud.
Should I bring my wife and Lexis to the interview?
My death will stretch its poison like tentacles across the face of the Earth and all who lie in its wake will perish. The New Plagues are among us. Quiver.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/12/irreversible.climate/index.html
TELL ME ABOUT THE GODDAMN LAYOFFS HAPPENING TODAY
**involuntarily scratches arm, needing fix**
Black-u-weather forecast predicts that
Carcass of Law = suicidal 1st year
#15 do not assume that beverage they gave you before the interview is complementary
#16 do not assume small law iz small hours
hth
#2 and 46, unfortunately I know from personal experience that BigLaw does indeed tolerate sexual harassment.
10 = Funniest. Comment. Ever. Seriously.
#17- KNOW that sometimes these little dicked douchebags are interviewing you to get their jollies at watching BIGLAW rejects squirm for a cookie to assuage their innate self esteem issues caused by their own inability to get BIGLAW jobs.
Holding rolling intervews without spcific available positions is pathetic and it is going on in this market. I don't know which is worse, laying off folks because your PPP droppd from 1.2 MM to 1 MM or interviewing people when there is no position available so you can spin yarns about groveling BIGLAW rejects.
I only tolerate sexual harassment of women who are the size of a Lexis.
CHOMPERS
14 - Do not ask the interview to shine your shoes. We know that the shoe-shine guy in your Biglaw office makes more than most of our associates and that your Gucci loafers cost more than most of us make in a week, but it just isn't nice.
15 - Do not say to the interviewer - "I know you - Aren't you the bread boy at Jean Georges?" While its true that many Smalllaw associates take second jobs to make ends meet, it isn't proper Smalllaw etiquette to discuss second jobs in the office.
I will not comitt suicide for I am the death that is among us always, eternal stench and ruin, let the putrid vapors fill your nostrils and sicken you.
If you are not going to hire me because I denigrated a few skirts that are wandering around your office like bewildered jackasses, than I don't think that I could work for you anyway. Good day sir.
*Takes a dump in the recycle bin on the way out*
If I didn't already work at a small firm and know that it's really not SO bad, this article would make me cry. I'm a 4th year at my 6-lawyer firm, make $180K/year (our partners make $800K-1.25M), and work in a beautifully-furnished office on the top floor of a downtown office building. We had design professionals design our offices, and have designer furniture in our personal offices and common spaces and beautiful artwork on the walls. Our partners certainly wear designer clothing, although I do not. While I drive a modest little Jetta, the other associate drives a BMW. So all's not lost if you work at a small firm. And we are probably far more lax about sexual harassment. Your writer is a hack.
10 here, I appreciate all the compliments. I dedicate all the goodwill to my fellow associates who have been laid over these last few months. It finally hit my shop yesterday, but it's tough out the for everyone. A very minor silver lining in all this suck is that at least clicks are up around here and presumably no layoffs are in sight for the site. Things should be fine as long as Lat does not over-leverage in an attempt to significantly increase PPLat.
64 - Its gonna do what it do baby . . .
I drove my Lexis directly into the conference room where my interview was and screamed out the window, "Behold the Prestige!"
10 is classic. The comment should be added to the main page.
60 is right - many, if not most, litigation boutiques are made up of former biglaw partners and senior associates. Relatively few carry a chip on their shoulder about not making it into biglaw, because they did.
I'm with 74. This article paints a bad picture of non-Biglaw. My firm has around 50 attorneys and I'm not sure a lot of those "words of wisdom" apply to people interviewing here but I love working here.
"depnding upon whom is doing the asking"
should be rewritten as:
"depending on who is doing the asking"
What the hell is wrong with ATL's bandwidth??? It takes me over 15 minutes to upload ATL now! Take down that fucking Dealbreaker ad or pony up more bandwidth. There is not even that much traffic on this site today!
60 and 66 are both dead on re don't assume small law = fewer hours. Depending on the firm/work, you can easily (and sadly) work far more hours than an average biglaw year, without the biglaw money or office resources.
Often, the latter is more of an issue than people may think when making the transition. At least for litigation, for instance, when you take for granted docketing/managing clerk assistance and then go to another gig where it is assumed and required that you know all the service/filing rules and local procedures, calculate and keep track of all your own deadlines, etc. (instead of just handing finished work product to the docketing clerk for service and filing), it can be quite unnerving and anxiety-inducing, at least at first. How many biglaw associates can honestly say they know exactly how to file an ex parte TRO in state court--from purchasing an index number to getting it before and speaking with a judge--without relying on a docketing clerk or senior associate to hold your hand throughout the process?
Well I'm just joining the choir here but this is all pretty stupid. These points all apply to biglaw interviews as well. What a waste of everyone's time for ATL to have posted this.
I like to act like Joaquin Phoenix at interviews as well as park my Lexis in the lobby.
tip #15:
don't masturbate during the interview. i know at biglaw people would routinely masturbate during the callback phase but don't try it here. i can tell what's going on with your hand down your pants. it's embarrassing for both of us when you have an 'oh face' right as i'm about to ask you what your greatest weakness is. and for god sakes, don't ask for a tissue after the interview is over. we don't supply tissues for runny noses, let alone semen. wipe that shit up with your monogrammed zegna handkerchief. this isn't the big leagues anymore kid, masturbate on your own time.
-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa
"PRESTIGE IS BULLSHIT. You are not a lesser person because you don't work at an AmLaw 100 firm. Please, for the love of god . . . stop perpetuating this bullshit."
Not sure I agree. I got laid off from a V50 and have since handled construction litigation, real estate contract disputes, small commercial stuff, basically. I certainly feel like a lesser person. You know, I don't get paid as much, or get free towncars home, or fancy sushi dinners, or any of that stuff. Come to think of it, I really miss the prestige. Yep, it without a doubt made me feel better about myself.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to step on myself too much. I landed on my feet, developed some clients, etc. But to say that prestige is bullshit, that's just throwing smoke in your face...
Cheers,
Shitcanned Midlevel
86 -- My wife has more prestige in her third chin than you.
Ft Worth Baller
I think these are better tips:
If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience…I will dispense this advice now.
Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth; oh nevermind; you will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they have faded. But trust me, in 20 years you’ll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can’t grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked….You’re not as fat as you imagine.
Don’t worry about the future; or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 4pm
on some idle Tuesday.
Do one thing everyday that scares you.
Sing.
Don’t be reckless with other people’s hearts, don’t put up with people who are reckless with yours. Floss.
Don’t waste your time on jealousy; sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind…the race is long, and in the end, it’s only with yourself.
Remember the compliments you receive, forget the insults; if you succeed in doing this, tell me how. Keep your old love letters, throw away your old bank statements.
Stretch. Don’t feel guilty if you don’t know what you want to do with your life…the most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year
olds I know still don’t.
Get plenty of calcium. Be kind to your knees, you’ll miss them when they’re gone.
Maybe you’ll marry, maybe you won’t, maybe you’ll have children,maybe you won’t, maybe you’ll divorce at 40, maybe you’ll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary…what ever you do, don’t
congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either – your choices are half chance, so are everybody else’s.
Enjoy your body, use it every way you can…don’t be afraid of it, or what other people think of it, it’s the greatest instrument you’ll ever own.. Dance…even if you have nowhere to do it but in your own living room.
Read the directions, even if you don’t follow them. Do NOT read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly.
Get to know your parents, you never know when they’ll be gone for good. Be nice to your siblings; they are the best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future. Understand that friends come and go,but for the precious few you should hold on.
Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and
lifestyle because the older you get, the more you need the people you knew when you were young. Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard; live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft.
Travel. Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old, and when you do you’ll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were
noble and children respected their elders. Respect your elders. Don’t expect anyone else to support you.
Maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse; but you never know when either one
might run out.
Don’t mess too much with your hair, or by the time you're 40, it will look 85.
Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth. But trust me on the sunscreen…
ELIE WHERE IS THE LAYOFF INFORMATION I CRAVE
Post 89 was too long for me to read.
39, 62, 77--
The car is a Lexus, not a Lexis. Y'all have either spent way, way too much time at work in your big firms, which has turned your braisn to mush, or you are insurance defense lawyers making a piddly $35k a year, with no hope of even living within driving range of a Lexus dealership, much less seeing the inside of one.
EPIC FAIL x 3.
92
92, they're clowning, as in, thems was jokes, you dumbass.
Man, this guy has serious self-esteem/inferiority issues. Every other piece of "advice" is centered around acting "humble" and being hyper-sensitive to the fact that every interviewer you encounter will hate you for being the guy hired at a top firm when they were not and that they will be watching you with hawk-like intenstiy for any perceived slight. Is every lawyer in SmallLaw this pathetic? I suspect many SmallLaw lawyers are banging their heads against their desk, bemoaning the fact that ATL has given the pen to a bitter jagoff just long enough to ruin their reputations.
And as for # 8, WTF? You think we don't encounter, get interviewed by, work for, or otherwise interact with women as peers in BigLaw? Nearly everyone I worked for this past year has been a woman - and a fine attorney to boot. If this guy is really a "BigLaw refugee", I suspect he either left in 1967 or his refugee status was forced upon him for truly "performance-based" reasons.
PS - douche.
I don't care what you say, #92. My 3500 sq ft, wife and Lexis is prestigious.
LOL @ "We had design professionals design our offices" and "turned your braisn to mush."
NY to mush braisn and design professionals!
My Honda Prelude and 1900 sq ft in Hempstead LI is prestigious, bitch. Plus, my wife is not fat.
The only reason I've heard given around here for why we generally don't even bother interviewing the ex-biglaw lawyers who send us resumes (constantly) is that they don't/won't/or can't be bringing any business with them and are therefore basically worthless at a place where self-reliance is important. We hire people straight out of school and develop them, and happily pay for and do what we can to make them good lawyers (i.e. giving them real responsibility and guidance) but there is just no justifcation for hiring some 3rd or 4th year biglaw associate who has 1) never done anything on his own and 2) has no clients, yet thinks he is worth more than a minimal amount of money until he has rectified 1) and 2).
lunchtime and no layoffs. Huzzah!
I had Braisn Mush for breakfast. Excellent source of fiber.
89 = plagiarism.
"If you're a male candidate being interviewed by a male attorney, refrain from ogling any female attorneys who might pass by the conference room, because she might be that interviewer's wife, girlfriend, sister or daughter."
No, dipshit, refrain from ogling any female attorney BECAUSE IT'S RUDE. It doesn't matter what her relationship is or isn't to anyone else you happen to come across during your interview - it's hopelessly crass to visibly objectify any person you are, essentially, asking to hire you.
The author of this post can seriously eat a dick. What a d-bag.
He forgot to mention that one should REMAIN professional at all times
#69 - If that is true, which as a student I have no idea, then I agree with your assessment.
Thanks to law school I too have little to no self esteem left but it would never occur to me to interview someone simply to mess with them. Strikes me as a waste of the interviewing attorney's time, which in this market, is a terrible mistake.
But, if this is what it has come to, I would like to announce that I am starting my own firm (please ignore that I am not a licensed attorney). I will be holding interviews in the next two weeks exclusively for any recently laid off Biglaw attorneys.
Anyone interested please bring a resume, cover letter, and three references to my office. By office I mean the bathroom that I am currently in.
Question: In most of my interviews any questions I had about the firm are answered in the first interview. Today I had a second interview and the attorney again asked if I had any questions about the firm. I felt that I needed to ask at least something to show that I cared but had no genuine questions left.
What should I have done / what would have been good questions to ask?
99 is bitter.
89 - copyright infringement.
Also, sunscreen is perhaps really, really bad for you. Absorption-type sunscreens have been found to cause just as much secondary free-radical damage as UV primary free-radical damage. Stick to topical sunscreens with Titanium Oxide or (even better) Zinc Oxide.
105 - have you thought about making a list of questions and saving some of them for your subsequent interviews? Or, assuming you're talking about a second interview that takes place on a subsequent day, have you thought about doing more research/reflecting between the first and second interview to see if more questions pop up? Part of the reason interviewers ask if you have questions is to see if you are actively engaging in the hiring process, rather than sitting there, mouth agape, waiting for someone to hand you a job. Do your part - act like you are actually interested in making this job thing happen.
And do some work on suppressing the "thanks to law school I too have little to no self esteem left" crap. Sad sackery isn't attractive in interviews. Act like someone who wants the job, and who thinks you'd be a good addition to the office.
# 82: "What the hell is wrong with ATL's bandwidth??? It takes me over 15 minutes to upload ATL now!"
Some firms are cutting back on bandwith as they have layoffs; it's just easier to do the bandwith - expect to see your conference rooms booked next week.
105,
Ask whether lawyers work in one area of law or rotate between them. Ask how the lawyer you're working with picked his/her area of law and why. Ask what your interviewer thinks is the most important think to get out of your summer/ask for general advice for a summer associate. Ask about in-house training sessions (how often/who gives them/can you go to all of them/etc.).
Just some ideas, all of which you could easily already be familiar with so I don't know if they'll be new. If you need more suggestions I'm sure we'd all be happy to come up with some.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I agree that #8 is B.S. I summered at a Southern mid-size, worked several years at a branch office of a regional smallish Biglaw, and now have worked several years at a Biglaw.
Sexism and harrassment were FAR more rampant at the smaller firms. I was the only female attorney in the branch office, and half of the male attorneys were insufferable oglers of the receptionist. At the Southern firm, 90% of the male attorneys' wives didn't work (whether or not they had kids) and their "women are welcome here" message really was lip service.
There may be some sexist pricks in Biglaw and there may be harassment, but small law has the worst problems. No one is going to discipline the crusty senior partner who used to pinch his secretaries back in the '60s and will not stop now.
Who the fuck cares about sexism. Shut up, go home, and bake me a pie.
Man this article is condescending. Hate to disappoint BigLaw associates, but the rest of us are generally not suffering from inferiority complexes that require excessive sensitivity to our plight in life. I am at a boutique firm (10 lawyers). We are a Biglaw spin off. Everyone here went to prestigous schools and no one cares. No one here is jealous or insecure about Biglaw. We go against Biglaw all the time and ALWAYS beat them. Always. In 5 years I can not think of a single case where we have not done so. In short, we are not as impressed with Biglaw and the quality of its work as you might assume. That said, here is some legitimate helpful information if you are looking to go to a smaller firm: In hiring, any hesitation we have in hiring Biglaw associates is because they rarely have any practical experience. Rightly or wrongly we assume that all you know how to do is review documents and overbill clients. I have many 5-year "litigator" friends at Biglaw who have never appeared before a judge, never conducted a deposition, never spoke to a client...you get the idea. In short, in an interview be aware of this concern and address it or neutralize it somehow.
god these posts are seriously pissing me off, and there's NO WAY they were written by a small law HP. they sound more like a big law caricature of small law. fucking pathetic, elie.
113,
You ALWAYS win? Sounds like Bernie Madoff ALWAYS paying out around 10% returns!
You can't possibly win them all, especially since sometimes your clients must not have much of a leg to stand on.
113 - if you really don't have an inferiority complex wrt Biglaw, why point out that you ALWAYS beat them? Who cares? Most reasonable people recognize that in litigation, like anything, you win some, you lose some. Your contempt for Biglaw associates is just as apparent as that of the author of the original, miserable post. Your advice is decent, but please, try to give it without the gigantic chip on your shoulder.
113 - Lacks inferiority complex to BigLaw, yet spent 10 minutes to anonymously post how he "always" beats them, how much more experienced he is, and mentions how he works with those who went to "prestigious" schools who worked in BigLaw.
99- Dead on.
Not that anyone will get it until their mom says she hasnt seen their unemployment check in the mail for the last couple weeks
115-116:
In every case that I have been involved with that has gone to trial against Biglaw we have won. Sorry it is the truth. That said, I have only been practicing for 5 years and not many cases go all the way to trial these days so it is not as unreasonable a claim as it sounds.
117
If anything I have a superiority complex. Just trying to stick up for the incredibly insulted little guy. I guess when people are instructed to hide any evidence of wealth and success from me so as not to incite a rage of wealth-envy retribution I get a bit defensive. Crazy I know.
All I had to do at my interview was show a picture of my 35500 sq ft, my wife, and my Lexis. I really wowed with all of that. Plus I carry a card in my wallet that says I am prestigious but that is just gravy compared to everything else.
115-116:
In every case that I have been involved with that has gone to trial against Biglaw we have won. Sorry it is the truth. That said, I have only been practicing for 5 years and not many cases go all the way to trial these days so it is not as unreasonable a claim as it sounds.
117
If anything I have a superiority complex. Just trying to stick up for the incredibly insulted little guy. I guess when people are instructed to hide any evidence of wealth and success from me so as not to incite a rage of wealth-envy retribution I get a bit defensive. Crazy I know.
113/119 - 116 here. The point isn't whether or not you win as often as you say you do. The point is that it's irrelevant to the conversation, and it says a lot about your insecurities if you feel like you have to bring it up here.
People who actually believe they are just as good as someone else in a given comparison don't feel the need to explain it. In other words, the lady doth protest too much.
small law = low pay, crap cases, biglaw hours, and properly stupid partners
86 = CATACLYSMIC FAIL!
"With your zany sense of humor, don't bother about coming back in on Monday." -soon to be words uttered to soon to be 1L nervous SA by firm HP
The first rule in interviewing.....
Suit up!
83 -- you are absolutely on the money. I went from smalllaw to biglaw, and I was shocked at all the help. No more trying to figure out indecipherable local rules and filing procedures -- just hand it to the clerk! Need a form -- he'll give you three, because that's how many copies you need. These things are not simple, especially if you are up against a filing deadline, and smalllaw firms will assume you know how to handle them.
92 - Reread my post and tell me again how I don't know the difference between Lexis and Lexus.
- 39
I'm at a small law firm where none of the lawyers went to top schools, few were at the top of their classes, and none started in BIGLAW (except for me). They are all respected, successful lawyers and don't appear to have inferiority complexes. Some people just thrive in their jobs and don't worry about what they could have been and what everybody else is up to. It's actually a very healthy atmosphere to be in after the dick-measuring contests of BIGLAW.
53-- biglaw already hires outsides of the Ivy League and T10.... and what exactly is "TTT" ??? Overused and nonsense term. Someone in the middle of their class at Columbia or NYU is not exactly cream of the crop.
JAFNEP here. My opponents are almost always BigLaw. Some are really sharp, some are mediocre. We win a lot, even against good opposition; we lose sometimes, even though we're careful with case selection. Some BigLaw associates get to do a lot, some seem to be glorified courtiers; (if you interview with me, I'm trying to figure out which you were -- tell war stories), some of the partners are really good and some are highly polished mediocrities. Some are wonderful people, and some of my past opposing counsel are friends now; some are insufferable assholes. BigLaw, and any firm therein, defies uniformity.
I appreciate that most junior-midlevel litigators at biglaw have no real experience. But if you were just laid off, what are you supposed to do? obviously try to go to a smaller firm and learn how to really be a lawyer. Most of the people who work/worked at biglaw are human beings too, and though disappointed about the loss of cash, will understand that they have a lot to learn. Be a leader, help them learn to litigate and they will appreciate it. Everyone will be better off and maybe your life will stop being so pathetic that you have to shit on people on ATL.
Your a fucking tool dumbass who must have come from a BIGLAW firm that was an absolute shit show.
You just want to feel like you have something important to say, but in reality, all of your advice could be summed up in a few words: Have good manners.
That's it. Such a fucking oracle of wisdom you are.
I cosign on 10 being the best comment here.
So for laid-off midlevels from Biglaw who have little litigation experience that is of use in a small firm, would it be a decent application strategy to address it by saying that you are willing to come in at a lower seniority/pay level to compensate? Or would that be self-sabotage?
I'm going to give Carcass of Law a thumbs up
*starts golf clap for Carcass of Law*
who's with me?
I like how people here are bragging about their Lexuses and Acuras as if they aren't just pathetic Toyotas and Hondas w/ the price jacked up $12k.
Looking to buy a new car and would appreciate input from anyone owning any of these: 2009 Audi A4 (the new remodel), Infiniti G37 or Acura TSX (new remodel).
Small law must be subdivided into a) those who did or could have gone big law before going small, and b) those who are idiots who could not otherwise find work. I have encountered both and there is no mistaking the difference. There are probably some small law firms that have a combination of the two.
-10
OMG!!!!!!!! Your comment is hilarious! As I was reading it, laughing for the very first time in 3 hellish days, I was wishing it wouldn't end. Please write something else. Anything.
It's cool that all the small law people posting here are making six figure salaries and working with others who were capable of going or did go to big law firms previously, but let's honest for a second -- when you say "small law," in the overwhelming majority of instances that means a firm where you start at ~55k, are making ~70-75k by your third year and, no matter how much you can kick a big law guy's a** in the courtroom (and I have no doubt a decent number can), you and your colleagues weren't working at a big law firm previously. That's what posts like this are most likely geared towards.
If you're getting a good deal out of small law and having a good life while you're at it, fantastic, but most of the comments describing it in this thread and the last one are not the norm.
I followed all the advice listed, but was asked to "get out" when I simply asked about the sort of concierge service the firm employed as a fringe benefit. Bad form?
I followed all the advice listed, but was asked to "get out" when I simply asked about the sort of concierge service the firm employed as a fringe benefit. Bad form?
When I graduated from HLS in 1972, I agreed to interview with this one firm in New York City. It was a small firm with four schmucks who had hung their own shingle after graduating from NYU. I can't quite remember the names--maybe it was Lipton or something? Katz? I can't remember.
Anyway, I walked into that place and I was appalled at how inadequate and small the firm was. I laughed at the interviewer's JC Penny suit and his cubic-zirconium cuff links. I made crass Jew jokes and grabbed as much female ass as there was to grab. I proceeded to join up with a much more prestigious firm, Heller Ehrman, and I've never looked back!
Wait, do you think that was Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz? Whoa, haha I almost lost it right there. There's no way a small firm could ever have that much prestige or even add enough talent to grow. Especially in these times with all of these talented attorneys floating around desperately looking for jobs. Thank sweet, 6lb 5 oz. baby Jesus for making BigLaw!
*sighs and holds up cardboard sign that reads "Needs Money for Scotch and Hookers. Hey, At Least I'm not Bullshitting You!"*
99 is off the mark. i'm sure it's true for some small or mid-size firms. but others will gladly take a biglaw associate with no client interaction experience and who isn't necessarily used to looking at the "big picture," because that experience is the only thing the biglaw associate is lacking, and has otherwise proved his/her worth as a lawyer. this was explained to me by a mid-law partner (granted, the firm is reputable and has enough $ to train people).
101,
Thanks for making me laugh.
Love, 92.
Now onto correcting all those posters who don't know the difference between Penn State and UPenn. Primordial dimwits!
500 sq feet, fat girl friend, and metrocard!