Loyola OCI Follow-Up
On Tuesday, I told you about Loyola Law School’s OCI policy of preventing students who had outstanding transfer applications from participating in Loyola’s on-campus interviewing program. I suggested that the policy was unfair:
It’s totally understandable for Loyola to want to service people who are happy to be at Loyola. But every student paying tuition should have equal access to the school’s services.
Well, that post has generated a somewhat blistering response from the Dean of Loyola Law School, Victor Gold. He sent the following message to all students today:
The website Above the Law carried a story recently about Loyola’s policy concerning transfer students’ participating in on campus interviews (OCI). The story misrepresents our policy, omits some key facts, and gets others wrong. The purpose of the policy is not, as the story claims, to discourage transfers. Rather, its purpose is to make sure that offers intended for Loyola students in fact go to Loyola students. It is my job to maximize employment opportunities for Loyola graduates and to ensure that employers coming to Loyola actually get to interview Loyola students. That is why I approved the policy.
The key facts Dean Gold wishes to publicize, plus a reader poll, after the jump.
Here’s what the Dean had to say:
Last year Loyola and other Los Angeles law schools for the first time conducted OCI in August just before classes began for the new school year. Because OCI preceded the start of classes, we were concerned about the possibility that a student who had been accepted to transfer to another school would still take interviews at Loyola. Unfortunately, we cannot know who has transferred until classes begin and we have the opportunity to take attendance.
On Tuesday, I said:
Unfortunately, that is too early for most students who are transferring to have received notice of whether or not their applications have been accepted.
Different sense, but I think we’re both still on the same page.
Moving on, the Dean pointed out:
This is why we adopted a policy that makes ineligible to participate in OCI any student who applied to transfer to another school. Importantly, the policy allows a student to immediately reinstate eligibility if that student’s transfer application is denied.
Alright. But, to be clear, the Dean really did read the previous post:
The Above the Law story suggests that a student should be ineligible for OCI only when a transfer application is accepted, not when the application is submitted. But because OCI takes place before we know whose transfer application is accepted, we have no way to enforce such a standard.
Well, if anything I suggested that a student should be ineligible for OCI only when the student stops paying tuition of services that should include (among other things) OCI. But, whatever, I’m still not seeing any factual errors or material misrepresentation of fact.
The Dean goes on:
While Loyola does not know the results of transfer applications at the time of OCI, almost all transfer applicants do have this knowledge. This means that a student whose application is denied can simply tell us and reinstate OCI eligibility. This is precisely what three students did last summer.
I agree, some transfer students do know the status of their applications by July. It’s just that some people don’t. What if you are wait listed? Remember, we’re talking about an OCI program that starts in late-July, not the end of August.
Anyway, the Dean makes it very clear that he has no intention of letting people who have actually received an offer of acceptance participate in OCI:
Of course, a student who knows he or she has been accepted at another school remains ineligible. This is as it should be. Students who transfer can participate in OCI at their new school. It is simply unfair to let students who transfer “double dip” by interviewing both at Loyola and their new school.
That makes sense. This situation wasn’t at all what I was talking about — and one could make an argument that people honestly debating whether or not to accept their transfer offer should still be able to access the services that they’ve already paid for — but everybody can get the logic of this part of the policy.
Still, I think the fundamental point still of the previous post stands. There are students out there who have applied for a transfer and don’t know the outcome, who will nonetheless be prevented from participating in OCI at the school they are currently enrolled in. That seems, unfair to me. But maybe that’s just me.
Regardless, Dean Gold wasn’t nearly done with me:
We are working on some changes to the policy this year based on student suggestions and the benefit of last summer’s experience. But the basic spirit behind that policy remains valid and will not change—it is unfair for a student who knows he or she is transferring to take an interview intended for a Loyola student.Only a tiny number of students transfer each year. The vast majority of students, including the vast majority of those ranked at the top of the class, remain at Loyola and participate in OCI. All those students should know that I will continue to do everything in my power to help them find employment opportunities.
I think that comment was more directed at one of our tipsters who said:
Moreover, the Dean felt that it was unnecessary to inform the interviewing firms that they will no longer have access to the top 10-20% of 2Ls who decided to throw an application to a top flight law school.
I don’t have a dog in the fight between students who want to transfer from Loyola against students who do not. I’m just saying that it is a little bit strange to pit one against the other in competition for a resource that is apparently scarce. I mean, it’s not like Loyola would prevent professors from giving recommendations on students that have transferred away. It’s part of what you pay for.
In any event, the Dean closed with this:
Above the Law made no effort to check its story with me.
This is completely, 100% true. I checked the facts for the story (which, you’ll note, the Dean does not dispute in any material way) and confident that I had accurately learned about Loyola’s OCI policy, I published my thoughts and the thoughts of (multiple) tipsters on the matter. I didn’t mean to close Dean Gold out of the loop here, but once I determined that the facts were accurate, I thought it would make for an interesting post. If you look at the post I ran about UNC Law earlier today, you’ll note that I did contact the school’s representatives, as it seemed relevant to that story.
Full disclosure, I didn’t contact Dean Gold about this post either. Seems to me that the email stands on its face.
And just so nobody thinks that I took anything here out of context, below I reprint the full email we received from Dean Gold.
But first take our reader poll. Do you support Loyola’s policy?
LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL — STATEMENT — DEAN GOLD
FROM: Victor Gold
TO: Official Notice [Redacted], Faculty [Redacted]
SUBJECT: On Campus Interviews (OCI) Policy
The website Above the Law carried a story recently about Loyola’s policy concerning transfer students’ participating in on campus interviews (OCI). The story misrepresents our policy, omits some key facts, and gets others wrong. The purpose of the policy is not, as the story claims, to discourage transfers. Rather, its purpose is to make sure that offers intended for Loyola students in fact go to Loyola students. It is my job to maximize employment opportunities for Loyola graduates and to ensure that employers coming to Loyola actually get to interview Loyola students. That is why I approved the policy.
Here are the facts:
· Last year Loyola and other Los Angeles law schools for the first time conducted OCI in August just before classes began for the new school year. Because OCI preceded the start of classes, we were concerned about the possibility that a student who had been accepted to transfer to another school would still take interviews at Loyola. Unfortunately, we cannot know who has transferred until classes begin and we have the opportunity to take attendance.
· This is why we adopted a policy that makes ineligible to participate in OCI any student who applied to transfer to another school. Importantly, the policy allows a student to immediately reinstate eligibility if that student’s transfer application is denied.
· The Above the Law story suggests that a student should be ineligible for OCI only when a transfer application is accepted, not when the application is submitted. But because OCI takes place before we know whose transfer application is accepted, we have no way to enforce such a standard.
· While Loyola does not know the results of transfer applications at the time of OCI, almost all transfer applicants do have this knowledge. This means that a student whose application is denied can simply tell us and reinstate OCI eligibility. This is precisely what three students did last summer.
· Of course, a student who knows he or she has been accepted at another school remains ineligible. This is as it should be. Students who transfer can participate in OCI at their new school. It is simply unfair to let students who transfer “double dip” by interviewing both at Loyola and their new school.
We are working on some changes to the policy this year based on student suggestions and the benefit of last summer’s experience. But the basic spirit behind that policy remains valid and will not change—it is unfair for a student who knows he or she is transferring to take an interview intended for a Loyola student.
Only a tiny number of students transfer each year. The vast majority of students, including the vast majority of those ranked at the top of the class, remain at Loyola and participate in OCI. All those students should know that I will continue to do everything in my power to help them find employment opportunities.
Above the Law made no effort to check its story with me.
Victor Gold
Dean
Loyola Law School
(201) 
Comments
Is this thing on?
Some people don't know when to stop.
This post sucked - the long verbatim quotations are totally unnecessary.
I can't believe you couldn't be bothered to verify the facts with, you know, the source.
ATL is truly a hollow shell of what Lat created. It's now a hit-piece, smear-machine of yellow journalism, muckraking sensationalism. Tabloid's one thing; but this, this is garbage.
Elie is confident that he accurately learned something. Yay.
I actually agree with the Dean. Who should the school care more about, students that will go on to graduate and become alumni or students who don't want to be there? The tuition argument is nonsense. You pay your 1L tuition to get your 1L education, not so you can interview at OCI as a 2L.
Anyhow, the larger lesson here is do better in college so you won't have to go to Loyola in the first place.
4 - hai dean gold.
4 - But what did Elie get wrong? It seems that his description of the policy was factually correct.
"Tuesday, I told you about Loyola Law School's OCI policy of preventing students who had outstanding transfer applications from participating in Loyola's on-campus interviewing program."
Students with average or shitty transfer applications were, on the other hand, allowed to take part.
- James Taranto
that is one pissed off dean!
hey dean, i'm sure you'll read this. TREAT YOUR STUDENTS FAIRLY! don't penalize them for attempting to go to a better school. i'm sure you didn't graduate from a t2 school like loyola
So far the readers seem to be siding with Elie, not the dean:
http://www.vizu.com//poll-results.html?n=153852
Elie, you are a douche. Sometimes, you have information about layoffs but you don't report them for weeks because you are waiting for "confirmation" from the firm or you are giving them a chance to respond. Here, you thought it would be "interesting" and you didn't give the school a chance to respond. But you let UNC respond because it was "relevant" to the story. You are a true hack.
9 - Good guess, he's a UCLA Law grad:
http://www.lls.edu/academics/faculty/gold.html
Loyola is just trying to hold on to its best students. The problem of "brain drain" at lower-tier law schools is very real.
I think the policy is fine.
This is a pretty defensive post Elie. Be a better journalist and stick to your guns instead of giving us 1000 plus words of defending yourself. Or else issue a retraction.
I agree with 9 and 14. Elie, you don't have to be defensive, but the Dean is a prick in multiple ways.
The policy at a lot of tier 2 and even low tier 1 schools is that once you try and transfer you are no longer a student there until you prove you still want to be. Schools take it personally that you are trying to leave. We are not dating. This is law school. If you don't like student sleaving make your school better or offer awesome fin aid. Duh!
Brain drain is a real problem for lesser schools, but this policy is bush league. A real institution/company/organization supports its people beyond their time with that institution. What goes around eventually comes around - who knows, Loyola school may someday try to get these transfers to recruit at Loyola.
I concur with 9, 14, and 15. Elie, most of your points are just rehashing your first post.
You should have just thrown up the statement and the reader poll (in which the Dean is getting schooled). That would have been enough.
Sometimes less is more.
Someone squeezed all the life out of these kids. And unless movies and TV have lied to me, it's a crusty, bitter old dean.
The story here isn't Elie's reporting skillz. It's Loyola's policy.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of a lot of others, the policy is incredibly petty and selfish. It is inherent in the nature of transfer applications to not hear from some schools until the very last minute because that's when a lot of people make decisions - other T2 transfers deciding which school to transfer to after they've been accepted by more than one school and students from the T1 and T14 schools who are themselves transferring to HYSCCN.
While I didn't go to Loyola, I'm sure they do other things to fuck over their students who want to transfer, such as not releasing class ranks until July and the like.
At some point there needs to be an effort to educate law school applicants that the likely result of attending a T2 law school or worse is that you will be massively in debt and with a low paying job--if you can find a job. It's a scam and it's pretty fucking shameful if you ask me.
why does Elie still write for ATL, let alone exist?
WWL2LD?
Sounds like what Mississippi College School of Law did two years ago when they started to charge students who wanted to transfer $175 for a letter of good standing per school.
"It is my job to...ensure that employers coming to Loyola actually get to interview Loyola students. That is why I approved the policy."
Because they'll be so disappointed to find out that what they thought was a Loyola student turns out to go to UCLA.
Loyola students should be able to utlize all its services, including OCI, UNTIL they have accepted a transfer elsewhere. Period. Make students sign a contract saying they must notify Loyola as soon as they accept an invitation to transfer if that makes you feel better.
I definitely agree that the school should promote those who will eventually graduate there. To be clear, I have no problem with people trying to transfer. In fact, I considered the possibility of transferring from Loyola. I chose not to, though, because if you're planning on staying in Los Angeles, as I was and did, Loyola is actually a very well respected school. True, it's not UCLA, USC, or any of the other top-flight schools in the country, but in LA, it's pretty good. I was also lured into staying because of the scholarship money for top 10%ers.
Finally, I got into BigLaw. I was there for a couple years and decided it was not worth it. The hours, the lack of outside life, etc., was just not what I wanted. So I went to a smaller firm, and am glad I did. Now I don't have to worry about my job stability, and I don't have much to repay in student loans (thanks to the scholarship).
BigLaw is not the end-all-and-be-all of life. And those who think it is may want to re-evaluate.
For those who are at Loyola, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the school. Be proud of it. Anyone bashing Loyola is being childish. Who cares what school you all went to? I went to Loyola and would not change a thing.
Better idea: make students with an outstanding transfer application sign a statement where they must attest/swear/promise that they do not yet have an acceptance anywhere, and that they must inform the law school and pull out of OCI when they do. Force a hard decision, but not until students have a decision to make.
It's hard to believe that such a black-and-white policy is anything but vindictiveness on the part of the Dean.
27 - That is a good proposal.
Ohh, I hate that lousy Dean!
There's no reason for a law school to expect its best students to show a loyalty towards it that it doesn't feel a need to show towards students at the bottom of the class - in particular, when the school puts the interests of itself above those students.
When a law school dean (virtually any law school dean) says:
-----
"All those students should know that I will continue to do everything in my power to help them find employment opportunities."
-----
I can pretty much guarantee you he has not and will not "do everything in his power to help them find employment opportunities."
Wouldn't NALP "Principles and Standards for Law Placement and Recruitment Activities" apply here?
The NALP Guidelines state that:
A. Law schools should make career planning services available to all students.
Career planning and counseling are integral parts of legal education. Law schools should dedicate to them adequate physical space, equipment, financial support, and staff.
The professional services of a career planning office should be available to students without charge.
Law schools should strive to meet the career planning needs and interests of all students. Preferential treatment should not be extended to any student or employer. "
Isn't the term "all students" pretty clear?
Thanks Elie! Before this blog, students did not have such an effective way to defend themselves against the selfishness and tyranny of people like the Dean of Loyola Law.
When you post things that are egregious (and true) like Loyola's discriminatory practices against students trying to better themselves, it helps change things. I really do appreciate it.
As a transfer student, I understand and appreciate the opportunities the law school I transferred to gave me--my career would not be the same if I had not transferred. That being said, I will be directing 75% of my post-graduate donations to my 1L school. They gave me the chance to prove myself and they treated me respectfully when I decided to transfer.
So, law schools should realize that they should not piss off their brightest students. If they treat them well, the students will remember and reward them for it. If you don't, the best and brightest will still transfer and never think about their old school or its students looking for jobs again.
OMFG
The Dean said his job was to look after Loyola law students. Fact check Captain Terd: Transfer students WERE and ARE (until the transfer is fully complete) LOYOLA students.
Don't believe me? Have a student with an unknown transfer status do something criminal/bad and see if the LOYOLA code of conduct applies. I guar-damn-tee you that LOYOLA would put a letter of censure in THEIR students permanent file. Way to take a tuition check, apply ethical standards/duties, and then take away benefits because of an "unknown" transfer status.
Newsflash: LOYOLA students are LOYOLA students until they leave.
OMFG
LOYOLA'S POLICY IS HYPOCRITICAL B/C IT DOESN'T ALLOW TRANSFERS TO PARTICIPATE IN OCI, BUT CLAIMS THAT ITS OCI POLICY IS INTENDED TO PREVENT DOUBLE-DIPPING...IF EVERY SCHOOL IMPLEMENTED BOTH OF THESE POLICIES NO TRANSFER STUDENTS WOULD BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN OCI...HORRIBLE JOB...
31 -- Good find. Accreditation pwnd???
Amazing - instead of convincing your best students to stay on the merits (personalized attention, extra efforts re: recruiting, improving the quality and prestige of the school generally), the school sees fit to coerce and bully them into staying. Wonderful stuff. The Dean clearly has a vision for Loyola at the top.
Elie,
Take Victor Gold up on his offer, and get him on the phone and ask him the following questions:
1) Has the administration sent out e-mails to the faculty discouraging them from writing letters of recommendation for students interested in transferring?
2) When were 1Ls first told about this policy? Was this no-OCI policy shared with 1Ls in the student handbook? Was it shared with prospective students during the recruitment process?
3) Does the school refuse to send transcripts or sign off on dean's certification forms until the student attends a "counseling" session with a dean?
The reality of transfer applications is that many transferees won't know whether they've been accepted until as late as mid-August. Loyola's policy would force a risk adverse student to withdrawal their transfer application prior in order to ensure that they have an opportunity to participate in OCI.
Moreover, I can't believe that it's common for successful transfer students to "double dip." 29 is dead on- if the Dean was only concerned with avoiding this "double dip" problem, it would much simpler to require a transfer applicant to sign a statement that they will pull out of OCI when they are accepted at a new school.
I've criticized Elie in the past, but in this case, everything in his initial post was true and nothing was unfair. The dean just wanted to spin things differently. Tough -- nothing the dean wrote contradicts any of the underlying facts nor provides anything new except for doubletalk.
In my view, paying tuition and fees means that you are treated as a student unless or until you leave (transfer, drop out, graduate). Will Loyola give a pro-rated refund of fees to potential transfer students denied this benefit? What of those who are denied the chance to participate and then don't get a transfer? Are there any state laws or contractual terms (implied terms) being violated?
#37, The policy is posted online, and yes I knew about it, though I suspect some other 1ls did not.
I was debating transferring. I spoke to two different professors within the last few weeks about it. Both were open, direct, and supportive. Sure there was some counseling involved, but like I said, they were honest, and neither had a policy of refusing to write letters of rec. FWIW, I've come to a decision to remain here; I've had a great experience to date.
35 - NALP has nothing to do with a school's accreditation.
Who cares if they're getting brain drained? Build a better law school and more people will want to stay. Law school is a business. If you provide a shitty product, your customers will go elsewhere.
lol ATL.
You're the bane of Loyola Law School.
"It is my job to maximize employment opportunities for Loyola graduates and to ensure that employers coming to Loyola actually get to interview Loyola students. That is why I approved the policy. "
Fundamentally I agree with the Dean. He has no obligation to get jobs for students who trasnfer out.
A shitty product huh.....The only two summer associates that didn't get offers at Latham LA this summer were from (1) Harvard and (2) Columbia. However, the 4 summer associates from Loyola (not to mention the two summer associates who transferred from Loyola to UCLA) all got permanent offers of employment. I hope that students from “tier 1” law schools continue feeling entitled to Big Law jobs. I love having senior associates and partners comparing my work to those of you in the bottom 1/3 from top 5 law schools. What can I say; my personal job security is enhanced by your presence. Thank you for failing to learn how to write, research or cite over the last three years. It was a job well done.
LOYOLA'S POLICY IS BULL SHIT --
I transferred to Loyola as a 2L from a horrible school to improve my chances of finding work with local mid-sized firms. Guess what? By the time that I received my acceptance letter, the deadline for applying for the fall OCI already passed, leaving me up shit's creek in a barbed-wire canoe in regards to finding decent summer work.
Otherwise, Loyola is Peachy.
holy shit brutal pwnage by 45,
WHO IS A LOYOLA 3L WHO SUMMERED AT LATHAM LOS ANGELES LAST YEAR.
I think anyone who tries to transfer out of Loyola but is unsuccessful should have to disclose that at Loyola's OCI. A lot of Loyola grads presumably do the interviews at Loyola and I'm sure they'd like to know that the person they are interviewing would have liked to have left the interviewer's alma mater for dead and "moved on up" in the world, but ultimately couldn't cut it.
Although I think it's okay what the school is doing here, I think this was a good story as it highlights the vast difference between schools' OCI programs and policies. However, I think in the future you should give a school at least 24 hours to respond to a story. It not only adds credibility to your story but it also let's us hear the "other side."
With layoffs and other such stuff, the added benefit of getting a comment from the firm is outweighed by the interest of getting the story out as quickly as possible. No such interest exists here...
45 - spend a few weeks talking to graduating 3Ls from the bottom third of your school and I doubt their opinion will differ much from that expressed on this thread.
For that matter, a number of your classmates chimed in on the last thread and it wasn't flattering.
Best of luck to you, but a law school is not defined by the top ~20% of its class and I'd have more sympathy for the dean and Loyola if he laid out the extent to which he was looking out for those students paying his salary who aren't in the top half.
lol 48. i hope oci interviewers ask.
As a current 1L student at LLS, I think this policy is outrageous. The truth is that the OCI process at Loyola begins much earlier than students who have applied to transfer will learn of their transfer admissions results. This puts a transferring student at a clear disadvantage because if they choose to transfer to a better law school, they will have been excluded from the LLS OCI process and will be arriving too late to participate in the new school's OCI process since the bidding and interview selection process happens earlier in the summer. I am unconvinced that the administration's choice of such a harsh policy towards students who have applied to transfer has nothing to do with their motivations to keep us here.
Here's a question nobody has addressed: is it even logistically possible to "double-dip" at OCI? Ever since the recession spurned higher-tier schools to move their OCIs forward, pretty much every law school in the country has OCI in the same 4-6 week period. If a student is trying to transfer to a school in a different city (imagine LA to NYC), I think it could impossible and/or prohibitively expensive to have meaningful participation in two OCIs.
Alternatively, the law school could request that the NALP guidelines be amended to ask firms not to interview the same student at two different OCIs (believe me, this is a task a firm recruiting coordinator could easily handle).
I second 27 - this policy is nothing but vindictive. I'm sure the Dean, had he bombed the LSAT and ended up at a school ranked lower than UCLA, he also would have wanted to try transferring.
The only two summer associates that didn't get offers at Latham LA this summer were from (1) Harvard and (2) Columbia. However, the 4 summer associates from Loyola (not to mention the two summer associates who transferred from Loyola to UCLA) all got permanent offers of employment. I hope that students from “tier 1” law schools continue feeling entitled to Big Law jobs. I love having senior associates and partners comparing my work to those of you in the bottom 1/3 from top 5 law schools. What can I say; my personal job security is enhanced by your presence. Thank you for failing to learn how to write, research or cite over the last three years. It was a job well done.
"Fundamentally I agree with the Dean. He has no obligation to get jobs for students who trasnfer [sic] out."
Yes, 44, but what about those students who don't transfer out, but apply to do so but remain at Loyola for all 3 years?
I was a transfer student and by the time I got my acceptance, the OCI deadlines at my new school were long, long passed. I don't think "double-dipping" is really even feasible for anyone.
what a tool
I LIKE HOW
****THIS*****
IS PROTRAYED AS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM FACING LOYOLA STUDENTS.
THAT'S LIKE SAYING A TAX ON AUTHENTIC CASPIAN CAVIAR IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM FACING NEW YORKERS.
This post was horrible. Ellie has no concept of journalistic ethics, nor does he have any ability to write. How long until HE gets asked to leave for performance reasons.
And doesn't the Dean have better things to do than deal with Above The Law?
"The purpose of the policy is not, as the story claims, to discourage transfers. Rather, its purpose is to make sure that offers intended for Loyola students in fact go to Loyola students."
Right, because that's so different. And firms are hiring Loyola students, not individuals.
I'd love to have this d-bag on CX.
"Loyola and other Los Angeles law schools" sounds like "Loyola and whatever other law schools might be in LA, although none come to mind at the moment."
It's a good idea to use an umbrella when it rains
Good job Elie! Your story was factually accurate and clearly sparked interest among your readership.
63 is Elie
No I am not. This post was too wordy but the reporting was great. Go Devils!
-63
Shut the fuck up 64. Elie has probably saved the jobs of countless young attorneys in this economy who otherwise would have no voice. The threat of bad publicity is one of the only things we have left.
66 -- make me
64
By the way, 66, is that the best you can come up with? To start cursing? Seroiusly, get a grip.
64
what a shithole. that dean has shit for logical reasoning. does he think anyone buys this bullshit? he's only worried because the 5% of students who might have a shot of transferring out are also the only 5% who stand a shot at being employeed.
my opinion of Loyola just went into the toilet... right where loyola belongs! eff. i feel sorry for loyola students. get that dumbass dean out of here.
also, is that the best response he could write? what a fame whore. only an idiot wouldn't realize it would backfire. he's generating tons of negative press now. dumbass. what a dumbass. how did he even get into UCLA? oh yeah, back then they held 50% of their seats for locals with shitty grades.
Yes, 66, no need for the harsh language.
69 = former Loyola dean Burcham
69 = the other Loyola prof. who lost out to Gold in Dean search.
The Dean's lopsided view of how to benefit the school as opposed to how to benefit the students further shows why Loyola's administration is beyond repair. You hardly see t10 law schools have such a policy. His inference seems to draw on that those students who are planning on transferring have the capability to take jobs away from those who remain at LLS. But if it is true that the top students always remain at the school, as he insisted, I fail to see any explanation to his view that the transfer students can really take away job opportunities. Bottom line: LLS only cares about its stats, not the students.
The dean is being ridiculous. Is there any evidence that "double dipping" is a problem at Loyola or any other school in the country? At best, this is an inelegant solution to a non-existent problem. At worst, it discourages students from pursuing opportunities and *totally screws* the transfer applicants that actually stay at Loyola.
When a policy is both unneccessary and hurts a substantial number of students, maybe it's worth a second thought.
Agree with 74.
This is not a real problem. This is an example of a manager who creates controversial solutions to non-existent challenges.
DEAN: If you want to compete for the best students, do it the right way.
Keep it up, big guy.
Not Elie
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is Elie.
71
One thing I will say is that I miss Dean Burcham. (I still want to know why he left to LMU like a bat out of hell last December)
Everyone else (especially the LLS belongs in toilet comment), don't blame the LLS students, we didn't have any say in Gold (most were puzzled by the selection to be honest). This policy and the Dean's poorly executed response shouldn't diminish the image of LLS students in the legal community.
Absolutely ridiculous and intellectual dishonest nonsense. Of course, he ignored allegations of the administration trying to limit recommendation letters to transfers. Someone's been reading FRCP 8(b)(6).
I don't see the point of bashing Elie here. Elie's a little defensive (and long-winded in defense), but he probably doesn't get attacked by dean's very often.
And the dean is just an ass. Punishing students who don't even know if they've been accepted to another school just for applying is deplorable. What kind of 'educational institution' stoops to that type of cheap threat? What a disgrace.
78-- I don't think it will impact the students. Hopefully, if anything, this will change it for the better.
I will not donate a single dollar to Loyola until this policy changes.
--Not Loyola alum
"I still want to know why he left to LMU like a bat out of hell last December"
It's called Loyola 2L and the drawing of attention to the vast majority of Loyola students, who have far bigger problems than deciding on whether to transfer up.
This whole discussion is ridiculous because it only affects a handful of students who are fine either way.
Loyola has been going down hill for quite some time which was well documented by loyola2L a few yrs back. i think ppl are actually now choosing pepperdine and southwestern over this doc review factory...
81
I hope so too. I go to school with some of the most talented people I have ever met. The thing that bothers me so much with this policy is that any potential value gained is more than offset by the negative PR and the deterrent effect it will have on qualified applicants from even applying.
Honestly, I don't get why Gold was selected when you have big names like Chemerinsky at the new UCI Law and Starr (even though he is a jerk) at Pepperdine. With UCLA and USC at the top, the area is getting crowded and LLS doesn't seem to understand that Irvine is in the LA legal market (you don't have to practice in the same county you went to law school).
All that I can hope is that he is a placeholder Dean. He does nothing to improve the prestige of LLS and actually seems to be doing a fairly effective job at harming it.
Weren't teh four finalists for the dean position all so so? I didn't see any superstars but I don't think any of the other three were better than Gold.
Not sure why Loyola doesn't go after superstar Deans.
I nominate Joan King for LLS dean.
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY POOR POST. WHY ALL THE QUOTES?
YOU SUCK, ELIE MYSTTTAL
YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
86
Yeah, I agree, but Rich Freer from Emory Law made a good impression with me. Gold was my least favorite. I was really surprised he was selected.
Why wasn't Laurie Levenson nominated? She is well known and respected. Oh well. I hope Gold steps down soon.
calm down 88-93
why should we care? loyola is a thrid rate school at best.
why should we care? loyola is a third rate school at best.
LL as dean? Are you kidding?
obama for dean
SPEAKING OF WHICH
Loyola doesn't seem to have very many black profs or students.
Exactly, 100.
There was that actor dood from Remember the Titans who attended a few years ago.
Hey 45, I was at Latham LA this summer as well! I wonder who you are, you really could only be 1 of 4 people. :)
But please, try to tone down the disdain for people at the top 5 schools. They have feelings too!
Actually, do *any* law schools have more than a few black students? Especially black men.
amen
Anyone else in Skadden DC shocked?? I expected about 150 "Skadden DC is a sinking ship" comments...
I'm at NYU right now and the only black men here are Africans in the LLM program. Seriously.
It's a serious problem -- the lack of minorities and women in law schools. Maybe ATL should start talking about an importnat issue like that, rather than all of the usual bellyaching.
lack of women?! I notice a lack of black men but tons of ladies. Not that I'm complainin
women are good for cooking and cleaning
Dear Dean Gold, rather than screwing your students, maybe you should be spending your time trying to improve the ranking of your school so that they don't feel the need to transfer.
I stand by our decision. Everyone else can suck it.
-- Dean Gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSq8ZBdSxNU
107: wtf are you talking about? there are a million african american students at NYU.
I obviously meant NYU law. There are some black women, but very few black men, except the African LLMs.
No african american men here at harvard
not even the LLM program? At NYU all the black men talk like Eddie Murphy from coming to america.
115: i mean NYU law too. there are african american law students all over the place!
No there aren't, especially not black men, and don't start listing names or anything.
The only Loyola "students" who are screwed by this policy are the students who don't want to be Loyola students anymore. If this discourages "top recruits" who want the option of transferring away too, then the policy is WORKING.
The top recruits at Loyola receive very large scholarships and if they want to throw away that scholarship and go to a different school, then they don't deserve to participate in OCI. However, I'm sure that the people who are disadvantaged by this policy are those who do not have scholarships; Loyola has good reputation in LA and the top of the class is employed. So there's little incentive to leave... there's little added value (you'll get a job AND graduate virtually debt free- what more do you need) with a fancier law school on your degree other than bragging rights.
Now I understand this may be important to some people, so they transfer. But why should Loyola do them any favors? They took high grades from our students and shouldn't be able to take our interviews as well. Even if they're just *thinking* about transferring,
the hilarious thing is that this is the best press loyola has gotten in years. this dean is a GENIUS!!! then again, he could take a public dump on the hollywood walk of fame and it would generate more positive press than loyola has gotten in the legal and mainstream press in the last ten years.
119: i guess we'll have to disagree, because i think there are a decent number of black students here. and definitely a lot more than at my firm.
I don't really understand. It seems to me that most transferring LLS students transfer to other, higher ranked LA schools. In that case, they're interviewing with the same firms as they would in LLS OCI. But who in their right mind would interview with a firm as a Loyola student and then AGAIN as a UCLA student?? It makes no sense. First of all, the interviewer is going sit there and go, "uhhh, yeah..., so I just interviewed you last week at a different school. What's the deal?" No, of course not! Second of all, why the hell would the student choose to interview as a Loyola student if he can interview as a UCLA student? He wouldn't. So this policy has absolutely no effect on the students who do successfully transfer, and it only punishes those who tried to transfer but ended up staying. It therefore must, by its very nature, only be as a vindictive tool to punish disloyal students who dared try to transfer and to scare those considering transferring into submission.
Alternatively, this double dipping BS can be explained only as a lame reference to Seinfeld. And this is no time for lame references to Seinfeld.
120: The entire point is that letting students do OCI is not a favor--it is something the students have earned by paying their freaking tuition and working hard 1L year.
If Loyola wants to do something, just don't let students who transfer participate in OCI once school begins, then they really are not Loyola students.
And, it is not screwing "top recruits," it is screwing top performers. Most students who are top recruits at the T2 level do not end up being the top performers.
Okay, I have never commented on ATL, but this discussion has brought out the curmudgeon in me.
48, lots of people try to move from lots of positions in all professions - business, education, and, yes, law. I'd include law students in the realm of law. People want to try to put themselves in the best position possible. People want the best brands on their resumes.
I don't think it's anyone's fault. If you think it is, then blame society for making brands so important. Brands are important. Especially in law. Argue that to your heart's content, but you know I'm right.
I went to a good undergrad school and luckily for me, I am going to a better-ranked law school. And some of my amazing law school professors have moved to better-ranked law schools. I wish they hadn't, but fair enough. Good for them. People perform as well as they can in the context in which they think they will perform best.
I have been insanely happy with the greater challenge my law school has provided me versus my undergrad education (which was also pretty good). I'd hope that we want to encourage people to aspire to higher expectations in general. That's roughly the idea of this country, right?
Finally, without a whole lot of firsthand information, the Loyola policy seems petty and shortsighted to me. I know that a lot of schools depend on incoming students being uninformed (e.g., Cooley's rankings encouraging unsuspecting people to incur a massive amount of debt to come to a school where they won't be employed at graduation).
But I think Loyola is a pretty good school, and from what I understand most of its students have jobs at graduation. I think it's a shame that they feel the need to deny tuition-paying students the right to on-campus recruiting. I say it's a right because I think that when you accept admission to a professional school, you expect that they will provide you with professional counseling and interviews to the best of their ability.
If the interviewer thinks the student she's interviewing is talented enough to transfer, the question should just be a compliment to the student. It shouldn't really matter how the student answers.
My $0.02.
Okay, I have never commented on ATL, but this discussion has brought out the curmudgeon in me.
48, lots of people try to move from lots of positions in all professions - business, education, and, yes, law. I'd include law students in the realm of law. People want to try to put themselves in the best position possible. People want the best brands on their resumes.
I don't think it's anyone's fault. If you think it is, then blame society for making brands so important. Brands are important. Especially in law. Argue that to your heart's content, but you know I'm right.
I went to a good undergrad school and luckily for me, I am going to a better-ranked law school. And some of my amazing law school professors have moved to better-ranked law schools. I wish they hadn't, but fair enough. Good for them. People perform as well as they can in the context in which they think they will perform best.
I have been insanely happy with the greater challenge my law school has provided me versus my undergrad education (which was also pretty good). I'd hope that we want to encourage people to aspire to higher expectations in general. That's roughly the idea of this country, right?
Finally, without a whole lot of firsthand information, the Loyola policy seems petty and shortsighted to me. I know that a lot of schools depend on incoming students being uninformed (e.g., Cooley's rankings encouraging unsuspecting people to incur a massive amount of debt to come to a school where they won't be employed at graduation).
But I think Loyola is a pretty good school, and from what I understand most of its students have jobs at graduation. I think it's a shame that they feel the need to deny tuition-paying students the right to on-campus recruiting. I say it's a right because I think that when you accept admission to a professional school, you expect that they will provide you with professional counseling and interviews to the best of their ability.
If the interviewer thinks the student she's interviewing is talented enough to transfer, the question should just be a compliment to the student. It shouldn't really matter how the student answers.
My $0.02.
Good job Elie. This policy and the Dean's ineffectual defense are both VERY TTT, and illustrate for potential Loyola students what they'd be getting in exchange for their crushing debt.
The idea that applicants to other schools should be punished by barring them from access to OCI before they have actually decided to transfer, or even learned it is possible, is vicious. Of course, this is hardly surprising - marketing for lower-tier schools is well known to be a borderline-scam already. What was the median starting salary of a 2008 Loyola grad?
Loyola dean is an IDIOT. Any publicity on ATL is bad. Just ignore our resident dumbass in chief Mystttal and this thing will go away. If you retort, you'll never hear the end of it. This dean should be fired immediately for rank stupidity.
120 said "The only Loyola students who are screwed by this policy are the students who don't want to be Loyola students"
Wouldn't that describe ALL Loyola students. It's not a bad school, but it's not anyone's first choice either. If Dean Gold had a chance to be the dean at Berkley, he'd be gone in a flash.
i could strangle people who feel the need to insert "moreover" in everything they write.
it is such an inelegant and repulsive word, kept viable only by insecure lawyers and 1st year law students. arrrggggh.
Damn, someone needs to fuck that dean in the ass. I thought that was their specialty over at Loyala LA anway. LOL LA LOL LA LOL LA (see what I did there)!!!
I notice the "Quinn Remains" douche has been conspicuously quiet today. Could it be because Quinn's stealth layoffs will finally be coming to light tomorrow?
DO you know something 132 or jsut guessing?
Count me as one of the ATL readers who thinks Elie did a good job with the initial report and this follow up post. A good fisking, Elie.
120 : "They took high grades from our students and shouldn't be able to take our interviews as well."
Give me a break. Those at the top of LLS did not take anything from anyone, they earned those grades. If you want those grades, try harder. That has to be the dumbest thing I have read today.
I think 120 is referring to forced curves.
I don't get it - how does Loyola know you've applied to transfer?
Can't you obtain whatever you need for your transfer application without telling Loyola you're obtaining it for a transfer application? Does the school to which you've applied contact Loyola directly?
May I point out that our President transferred colleges as an undergrad. There is nothing wrong with working hard and trying to better yourself by transferring to a higher ranked school. Loyola Law has no problem taking transfer students from other lower ranked schools.
"Following high school, he [Barack Obama] moved to Los Angeles in 1979 to attend Occidental College.[24] After two years he transferred in 1981 to Columbia University in New York City, where he majored in political science with a specialization in international relations[25] and graduated with a B.A. in 1983."
Pardon my ignorance, but is "Quinn" someone's first name or the name of a firm? Is someone seriously talking about an Erie, PA law firm here??
Kudos to the Loyola Dean. Transfers suck. They get good grades at places like Hofstra and Cardozo and end up transferring to G-Town, CLS, and NYU, and then stupid people at firms see T-14 and a 3.8 GPA and these transfers end up (on average) doing much better at EIW than their classmates who actual did well on their LSAT's. And then to had insult to injury, they end up taking some bs clinic like the Brennan Center one for fourteen credits (where everyone gets an A- or A) and they graduate cum laude since that accounts for a 1/4 of their gpa.
Someone who couldn't get into a t-14 school originally should not be at Cravath, Skadden, or DPW.
Bitter NYU Grad at V-50 firm
In the context of law school, transfers are a joke. the only year that matters in law school is your first year. If you did your first year at Loyola, then you should be viewed as a Loyola student. It seems insincere if you spend the only year that matters at Loyola, then turn around and transfer and tell people for the rest of your career that you're a UCLA/USC/Boalt grad. Who are you kidding?
Yeah, transfers should have to list their original school as well as the school they transfered to in their firm bio.
Hey! I know that I spent my college career majoring in clarinet performance, but I am going to be a GREAT LAWYER who is going into ENTERTAINMENT LAW, so dont be such a hateraid drinker d00d! I had great WE - I spent two years setting up window displays at the mall for stores like the GAP and TOMMY! I also had glowing letters of rec, one from the manager at the mall!
My practice LSATS were 169, 172, 170, 169, 171. On the real thing? 162. Cest la vie! I will still list my practice scores in my profile, so you will all know that I am smart!
I am going to a TIER 1 law school! Loyola LA is SO NOT FUGLY! And, I will constantly remind you that *I* have a full scholarship, so dont hate me because I am beautiful! I am going to be a GREAT entertainment lawyer!
Also I do not like women!
141--You are wrong. I work at a V10 firm for a partner who went to Georgetown Law first year then transferred to Harvard Law. His bio on website and brochures say Harvard, not Georgetown. Other than few insiders, no one knows he went to Georgetown.
Could you imagine hirng a purported Harvard lawyer and later finding out he's really a Georgetowner?
145 - My firm did this once. We let him go after 6 months. Toilets have no place in BigLaw.
Damn you, Dean Gold. I'm putting you on double-secret probation.
144 - wait, so what am I wrong about? I know that transfers only list their second school on their firm bios. I'm just saying that the only year that matters in law school is first year, and if you want to be "judged" based on where you went to law school, you should be judged based on where you spent your first year.
Forget Loyola. THE BIGGER SCAM IS BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL.
If you think that the faculty freeze at brooklyn was a positive move to deal with the current economic crisis, consider the following facts:
1.The salary freeze announced by the dean was supposed to justify a tuition freeze–but as the dean has made clear in letters to the students tuition will be limited to the same increase as last year which was 6% increase resulting in a tution of 42k plus for one year–one of the highest law schoo tutions in new york. Room and board for students was increased by 25 % last year. Limiting an increase to the increase last year would mean that Brooklyn maintains a profitable position for the 2009-10 academic year.
2.The school has an on going building construction project for the entry to the main building which is purely cosmatic designed by one of the most expensive archectects in the city.The project has been delayed by german marble imported from germany. (The old entry was clean, functional and quite pleasant.) In a time of economic recession that now justifies a salary freeze one must wonder why the dean has decided to invest in a project that only put lipstick on the building without improving the functionality of the institution. the money could have been better spent on technology.
3. The Dean has some of the best salary and benefit packages when compared to other deans in the New York law school community. She is given a luxury auto (a lexus) with a driver to take her to her home in Westhester even though she is also give a free apartment in the new law school dorminatory fully furnished. These expenses that go solely to the personal use of the Dean could finance several tuition scholarships.I mention this because a salary freeze is meaningless to anyone in her position.
4.The dean of Brooklyn law school is paid a salary that is now more that the salary paid to President Obama. It is hard to justify a nearly $550 yearly salary for administering a non-profit academic institution and if the school were to take just 30 percent of dean salary to reduce student tuition the dean would stil be earning $385 K per year–more than fair for a dean salary.
5. The dean was denied tenure at NY University school of Law and was able to become dean because of the support of the prior dean, Judge David Trager. This is relevant because it should be a factor in dermining what the dean salary should be in light of her experience.
6. The three top faculty members earn in excess of $250k per year with benefits.
So–if you are making the kind of salary that the dean makes or the three top paid faculty members, a salary freeze is not all that bad and if it serves the purpose of providing extra resourses for new building construction projects while mainating a 61/2 per cent tutition increase then it does make alot of sense. On the other hand, for the majority of the faculty at Brooklyn who earn under $150 the salary freeze means they are paying a greater percentage of the subsidy along with the student tuition that is now going to support the top wage earners at the school.
Brooklyn Law School is a good example of how the current economy is being used by administrators and managers to act opportunistically by taking advantage of those most in need during the current economic downturn.
Loyola's OCI policy is problematic because of all schools' (likely including Loyola) unexcusable delay in processing applications. Fact: admissions offices know almost immediately if they are going to accept a student.
Why do they wait so long to get through this painful process? Should it really take until mid-August to let a student know if they are accepted? All law schools are inconsiderate and selfish when they do this, and cause very real problems such as this one.
Nervous T10 L1 is Jared Jones
Nervous T10 L1 is Jared Jones
snoozapalooza
45, FAIL. You can extrapolate exactly nothing to the world at large from the fact that two Ivy League students didn't get offers at Latha and 4 Loyola students did. For a host of reasons that shhould be blatantly obvious. I guess Loyola doesn't teach logical reasoning.
On a larger note, the douchebaggery of many top tier law students/Big Law associates seems to have triggered an even higher level of douchebaggery and defensiveness among Tier 2 students, midlaw lawyers, and Public Interest Lawyers. A shame.
45, FAIL. You can extrapolate exactly nothing to the world at large from the fact that two Ivy League students didn't get offers at Latha and 4 Loyola students did. For a host of reasons that shhould be blatantly obvious. I guess Loyola doesn't teach logical reasoning.
On a larger note, the douchebaggery of many top tier law students/Big Law associates seems to have triggered an even higher level of douchebaggery and defensiveness among Tier 2 students, midlaw lawyers, and Public Interest Lawyers. A shame.
Where does Jared Jones go to school. I need to know so I can ding him in interviews.
The original post was fine. The bit in italics is probably the important part.
"While Loyola does not know the results of transfer applications at the time of OCI, almost all transfer applicants do have this knowledge."
If that's right, then the policy seems much more understandable.
I think this is all very silly. When I was a 3L, I visited at another law school because my wife relocated to that city. The CSO at my school and the CSO at the visiting school told me the same thing - if you participate in OCI at one, you can't at the other. It was an honor system (but I have a feeling that if I double dipped, they would have known). In any event, it worked out fine. I think that this is a much better system (being without all of this drama) than what Loyola is doing.
Gold is a complete d-bag. I hate it when ppl are clearly in the wrong and don't have the balls to admit it and instead launch an offensive to defend their indefensible position. Gold - get some balls and some humility - don't forget you are the dean of Loyola, not a law school that matters....
OCI's do little to help the vast majority of students anyway. To treat anyone paying tuition in this manner only encourages the top students to transfer. So keep it up Dean, you're getting bad press, you're TTT TTTo begin with, and you look like a TTTurd.
If the Dean cared about his students he would tell them to DROP OUT. For years they have defrauded their students into thinking that they will be employable with a Loyola Law Degree.
oh, dean is very unhappy
Schools that have such a policy of cutting off transfers may successfully prevent those transfers from getting OCI slot trough their first year school, but it also may prevent the transfer from getting any job. Transfers typically have missed the OCI deadline by the time they are admitted to their new school.
In this way, this policy really hurts transfers, and it might also hurt the first year school. No transfer would give to a first year school with such a policy even though they might otherwise be inclined to support the institution that was integral to the student's ultimate success.
i walked passed the dean as he was parking his lexis this morning. i kid you not, the man was weeping in his car. what a disgrase. he should just change the stupid policey and stop making are school look dummer than are students.
Ok so we want to prevent double dipping but not penalize ppl who don't know yet, right? (right, dean?) The solution is easy:
- Applied for transfer and no decision, application denied, or application accepted but student declines = OCI
- Applied for transfer and accepted by new school, student has not decided or has accepted = no OCI
WTF? Why can't a dean figure this out?
I went to Loyola, I did well and got a job at Big Law. I didn't attempt to transfer. But this policy? Repulsive. They won't be getting any donations from me.
I agree with previous commentors that BigLaw is not the be-all, end-all of the legal profession. I was heavily recruited out of HLS by top firms around the country. However, I ended up choosing a small, 41-lawyer firm in Memphis. And guess what? Not only did they pay me 20% more than my top offers from BigLaw, but they leased me a new mercedes in the color of my choice and paid a down payment on my house.
Everything was peaches and dreams until several partners were found dead in the Cayman Islands, I was coerced into cheating on my wife, and the mafia from Chicago began following my every move.
Fortunately, things turned out okay when my wife roofied another partner, stole his secret documents, and I blackmailed the mafia into calling it even. Then I moved back to Boston and opened a small solo practice.
So like I said, BigLaw is not the be-all, end-all of the legal profession.
167, that is amazing.
tell me this, did you use barbri to study for the bar, or did you just pull all nighters with full-size caselaw books, while your wife slept peacefully in the next room over? also, did you get the highest score in the state on your exam? i am dying to know.
one last thing - would you consider selling me the option on your life story? i think it would make a great movie.
164 TO DEan GOLd:
BYE! GOOD
Lulz at 167
I got the 2nd highest score in the state. and the movie option is yours.
167: your ideas are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your scientology newsletter.
the fact that there aren't 900 posts in this thread from loyola students defending their dean says it all.
@140 - Haha, that describes me exactly. Subpar 1L school, transferred to T14, took a 6 credit clinic in which I (unbelievably) got an A+, graduated with high honors, now working at a V20 firm. And to think that I completely bombed the LSAT...
I think law schools should implement an affirmative action policy for people who did poorly on the LSAT.
"i walked passed the dean as he was parking his lexis this morning. i kid you not, the man was weeping in his car. what a disgrase. he should just change the stupid policey and stop making are school look dummer than are students."
lol @ "disgrase"
Dean Gold was weeping? That actually makes my day. He has once again demonstrated his complete and utter lack of regard for students and their suggestions and has instead tried to justify his position by hiding behind the cloak of his authority. He isn't a Dean, he is a pathetic, and petty man.
Dean Gold was weeping? That actually makes my day. He has once again demonstrated his complete and utter lack of regard for students and their suggestions and has instead tried to justify his position by hiding behind the cloak of his authority. He isn't a Dean, he is a pathetic, and petty man.
Dean Gold was weeping? That actually makes my day. He has once again demonstrated his complete and utter lack of regard for students and their suggestions and has instead tried to justify his position by hiding behind the cloak of his authority. He isn't a Dean, he is a pathetic, and petty man.
What's the big deal? Brooklyn Law School does this all the time. A friend of mine even got creepily passive-aggressive phone calls from the Dean telling him what "consequences" he'd face for leaving. A lot of schools do this. Not really news!!!
174: There is an affirmative action policy on people who did poorly on the LSAT, but it only applies to certain minority groups
Going back to the minority issue in law schools:
Why does it matter how many black people are in a school? It shouldn't matter if there are any asians or hispanics either. Don't people want to be up against other intelligent students? Why should their race matter?
This post is a terrible piece of writing. Even though I agree with Elie's position, and don't think the Dean really said anything to refute it, Elie's tone in this post is unprofessional, juvenile, and completely lame. This line, in particular, makes me cringe: "But, whatever, I'm still not seeing any factual errors or material misrepresentation of fact."
I seriously doubt Dean Gold was weeping about this... I'm sorry but these anonymous post certainly do not reflect the views of the Loyola student body. There's probably about 20 1Ls who are unhappy about this policy. Everyone else doesn't care or likes this policy.
By the way, no one who stays will end up getting screwed by this policy- he or she can participate in Loyola's OCI (and spare me the comments about Loyola students not being able to get BigLaw jobs- a lot of the top students do). No one who transfers will end up getting screwed by this policy- he or she can participate in their new school's OCI.
Paying tuition your first year of law school only guarantees the ability to receive law school services first year... For example, 1Ls who fail out first year pay tuition but that doesn't mean that their payment guarantees a 2L spot or the ability to participate in OCI.
This post is a terrible piece of writing. Even though I agree with Elie's position, and don't think the Dean really said anything to refute it, Elie's tone in this post is unprofessional, juvenile, and completely lame. This line, in particular, makes me cringe: "But, whatever, I'm still not seeing any factual errors or material misrepresentation of fact."
183 illiterate moron, or dean gold?
countless posters have explained that often you can't participate in the new school's OCI given the timing.
Also, you glosss over the more obvious issue - the students are Loyola students until they transfer. they have a right to OCI. Also, as a potential employer i would be very concerned that the best students - who might also happen to be looking to change ships - will not be presented to me as viable hiring options. forget it.
last, "lots of the top students" is not really a good record for gainful employment. i'd like to hear "top 40% can actually get a paying job" before i agree with you.
"Going back to the minority issue in law schools:
Why does it matter how many black people are in a school?"
Racist
183 - there may only be 20 students who are directly affected, but the entire school is taking a PR hit from this.
Loyola's rank and location allowed it to take in all those UCLA/USC kids who partied too much during undergrad and bombed their LSATs. a handful of them woke up and busted ass once they got there. that explains why there are actually some quality students who land BIGLAW jobs.
how many pre-law wannabe gunners do you think chose Loyola because it's a decent Socal school and they had "planned" to transfer out?
suddenly pepperdine, UC Irvine, or even Southwestern just became a safer bet.
Wow!!! I sure hope most of you all never get law degrees. You're a pathetic bunch.
I just figured it out, and it all makes sense now: Eli is L2L.
Glad to see he landed on his feet after all.
I seriously don't understand why this is a big problem.
Who went to Loyola with the understanding they'd ever find a job?
Seriously, these are just the lackluster poli sci grads who couldnt find a job after undergrad and then decided to go to lawschool despite their mediocre test scores.
This whole situation is identical to someone who bought a Geo Metro and they got upset because it cant move faster than 5mph.
Sorry 132. I've just been jackin it all day over the fact that I still have a job
Why would you bother to go to Loyola to interview now? Most of the top of the class (the only ones BigLaw would be interested in hiring anyway) are apparently barred from OCI! Guess where my firm won't be bothering to interview people this year...
I am a top ranked student at Loyola who does not currently intend to transfer - although now the Dean's attitude may change that.
Really, LLS's biggest issue is that it is a school highly respected for churning out good and sometimes great law practitioners yet it is ranked far below other institutions of otherwise comparable merit.
The problem could have been partially solved by recruiting a Dean of consequence. Who is Victor Gould? It sounds like a line out of an Ayn Rand book but the question is serious.
LLS should have worked harder to secure a notable Dean. Could LLS not find anyone whose background would help bump the school's ranking? Bring additional networks for raising the endowment? Bring attention to the school that the Princeton Review ranked #1 (Yes, number 1- ) in classroom experience?
No a bunch of nepotistic insiders voted their buddy in. They chose a hateful little shadow of a man (if you can call him that - he changed this policy with little or no input from the students. OK the allegation of nepotism a conclusion, but I'll save the citations for the firms I work with.
LLS - start with a new Dean and work from there.
This policy is a) unfair, b) selfish and c) stupid. If I was applying to school now I'd avoid Loyola.
What? This is news? This story sucks so bad. Who gives a shit? Get a life, you idiots. Look at porn at least. Jerk one out, get over yourselves. Fuckin morons.
nice 113. spandau ballet!
You say that all paying students should recieve services. Well they aren't paying students if they are transferring.
Biased much 193? My school should be ranked higher! Waaahhh!
I've known some Loyola grads and while some of them were tenacious, not one impressed with other gifts. If you had the goods, you'd have gone to a higher ranked institution. Accept your place and be happy with your lot in life, after all, you could be selling your coulo on the corner.
Biased much 198?
If you had the "goods" you wouldn't be motivated to post ridiculous posts two days after the last entry.
Get a life!
Elie should just drop it already. The dean pointed out relevant facts which Elie obviously did not fact-check and (gasp) forgot to get a rebuttal for. now, he's obviously backtracking. I see nothing wrong with the policy. As #13 said, transfers are a drain on the school and is a very real problem. Firms drop out of OCI if their incoming are coming from the new transferred school. It sends the message, Why even interview at Loyola if there are better candidates elsewhere?
The topics on this thread appear to have strayed a bit from the topic at hand, but as a student weighing my law school options this article and the commentary is making me incredibly uncomfortable.
I don't know if I would want to attend Loyola and consider transfering later on, but I do know that I wouldn't want to be put at any type of disadvantage because of it ( no matter how minor that disadvantage). More than that, however, I have to admit that the rather unsubstantial and unsympathetic response from the dean, the poorly written criticism or 'article,' and the tasteless comments left by what appear to be Loyola students are more of a deterrent than this unfair policy. Is this what the atmosphere is like at all law schools or is there a substatially larger group of unsatisfied loyola students? Do they really dislike the dean and the school that much? Is it really a waste of money? I think the issue was clearly poorly handled by the dean, and that is unfortunate. I thought I had decided on this school and was excited. It seems I was wrong...