NALP Glitch Gives Early Preview of 2009 Summer Program Numbers
There’s a pretty interesting glitch happening right now over at NALP (here at ATL, we know something about “technical difficulties” — we’re working on ours). Even though the new numbers haven’t been made public yet, if you know what you’re doing you can get a sneak peak at the 2009 NALP numbers.
We’re not going to tell you how to do it, but we’ve done it and we’ve obtained some pretty interesting numbers to report about the New York summer programs at the top 20 firms as ranked by Vault. We’ll give you some numbers about the V10 today. Tomorrow we’ll expand our look to the Vault 20.
Getting an offer at one of the top nine firms in the land (the NALP glitch didn’t work for S&C) was considerably more difficult this year than last year. We compares the number of summer associate offers extended to 2Ls in 2007, with the expected numbers for that same group in 2008. Overall 2Ls offers were down a whopping 20% at the top 10 firms. And you have to wonder what percentage of those summer jobs are going to turn into full-time offers for employment.
For 1Ls, it gets even worse. We explain that and some other highlights, after the jump.
We were only able to access information on two top Vault firms about their 1L summer associate hiring. But we expect what we did find could be a general trend. In 2007, those two firms offered 22 1Ls the opportunity to summer with the firm. In 2008, that number careened down to one. One single 1L.
But, as you well know, one can do a lot of funny things with statistics. While the overall 20% drop is significant, we’re not looking at an across the board, 20% cut, for the nine firms we looked at. Firms like Skadden and Cleary look like they will maintain a consistent level of 2L summer associate participation.
At other firms, it’s a different story. Davis Polk is looking at a 10% drop in 2L summer associate offers. Cravath is reporting a nearly 25% drop in summer offers.
Not entirely surprising, Latham skews the numbers for the entire top ten. The firm reportedly handed out 67.5% fewer summer offers.
So, congratulations to those that survived the fall gauntlet to snatch to become a 2009 summer associate at a top ten firm. But, don’t let down your guard just yet.
We’ll get into the next batch of firms tomorrow.
(148) Comments
Comments
Who knew? I would have been so much more nervous had I known that the sky was falling while I toiled
How is it a glitch??? It specifically says 2009-10 numbers are up.
Also, Latham is toast.
http://www.blackbooklegal.com ---> What can we do to get rid of student debt?
Glitch?
Also if you know what you're doing, you can get a sneak peek at the numbers for 2010-2011. The trick is to wait until they are released in March of next year. Next, and this gets tricky, go to the NALP Web site and do a search for the firm you're looking for.
I think ATL should review its policy of hosting this web site on an Atari 2600.
I am not gay.
"We compares the number of summer associates"? Come on MysTTTAl.
Ropes & Gray went from 107 to 110.
WilmerHale went from 36 to 36.
Foley Hoag went from 20 to 22.
Mintz Levin went from 22 to 19.
Goodwin Procter went from 98 to 35.
Is that good news or bad news for Goodwin. I assume 98 was more than they had originally wanted for last year and this is probably a bit of an overcorrection, but why only them?
Playing it safe? Playing it smart? Or "the ship be sinking"?
Personally, I think its great that by having 60 less they are saving millions on useless summers. When economy turns around, they can hire more, get laterals, etc.
What do others think?
Sincerely,
Curious 2L
5, that's an offense to Atari 2600s.
"So we just went ahead and fixed the glitch."
"And you have to wonder what percentage of those summer jobs are going to turn into full-time offers for employment. "
You have to think they lowered the number of summers so that they could keep the same (or close to it) ratio of offers/summers.
Cravath NY: 160 (2008); 122 (2009)
Simpson Thacher NY: 110 (2008); 59 (2009)
DPW NY: 113 (2008); 110 (2009)
S&C NY: 137 (2008); 107 (2009)
Skadden NY: 103 (2008); 103 (2009)
Cleary NY: 94 (2008); 96 (2009)
Debevoise: 67 (2008); 109 (2009)
Paul Weiss: 89 (2008); 107 (2009)
Latham: 80 (2008); 26 (2009)
I dont think its a glitch. I think they're now just public, including for S&C, which the post says the glitch doesn't apply to.
Also, Latham is only down big in NY. It's other offices are down, but not by more than 20-30% from those that I've seen.
Elie, you look like a bucket of lard on a bad day. You baby gorilla. Why don't you work in a zoo, and stop bothering people? Got a call yesterday from Baskin Robbins. They said that they're down to only five flavors. You're swelling up as I talk to you.
Latham, Simpson, Shearman, White & Case, Fried Frank, and Clifford Chance all had considerable declines. I feel comfortable grouping these firms together into what I call "the undesireables."
8,
I have no idea why all these firms are sticking with the same or increasing summer classes.
Goodwin looks to save a ton of money this summer and not be left with another clusterf*ck on their hands next year when other firms are going through this same crap again.
What is Ropes thinking? When the economy hasn't rebounded are they going to no-offer 50% of the class? delay start dates for a year?
Seems crazy to me.
I think the glitch is that NALP is allowing Morris Manning to post the technically correct assertion that iit offered 10 of its 13 summers in Atlanta a full time position...
Maybe once NALP realized the glitch they decided to release them, or maybe the glitch was in the process of releasing them.
Anyways, I'd be happy if I was at a firm with a smaller summer class. Less chance of huge # of no-offers, better foresight from management, iyam
Fried Frank is delicious
Deboviose went from 69 to 109. Are they nuts? In this economy?
Game over for STB?
This still puts Cravath's summer class at a 20%-30% increase from 2 years ago.
16 -
The market is booming today; all is well.
Debevoise is a huge shocker. They had 100+ class in 2007 though and suddenly went way down to 67 last summer. Maybe last summer was an anomaly?
Kirkland NY right now is listed as having 0 summers. Guess my classmates who are going there don't exist.
Firms that cut their summer class by more than 40% are not in good shape. The economy has tanked that's for sure. But in no way a healthy and well diversified firm would have to cut summers by that many.
14 = EPIC FAIL
So what is all this complaining by 2Ls about finding a job if most firms are staying the same or increasing summer class sizes?
Winston NY increased its numbers.
GDC has more New York summer associates in 2009 than it did last summer.
I have a humongous glitch and it is prestigious.
That giant Debevoise increase worries me. That can't have been planned; looks like they were caught w/ their pants down when people accepted in record #s.
I also have 8's question about GP. Anyone with inside info? As an incoming SA, I'd like to know whether I'm jumping on a sinking ship or just one that's being prudent. Also, 10 out of 37 associates are from Harvard, which leads me to believe it's not just a case of an unusually few number of people accepting offers.
The numbers listed in 12 are not correct for all those firms
Are you talking about number of SA OFFERS or number of SA SPOTS? That's a big difference. I thought NALP only reports the number of incoming SA's, not the number of offers given out.
25- Calm down, Elie
"Tomorrow we'll expand our look to the Vault 20. "
Will that involve anything more than simply adding 6 sentences?
32 12 's number is correct! You dumb ass. Check out the NALP website. THey are for NY offices only.
Incnow banner at the top of the site has the same chick from the Gibson Dunn careers and porn phone assist sites.
26 - um, perhaps the complaining stems from the fact that these firms are now revoking the offers listed on NALP's website that they surely sent to NALP weeks, or even months ago.
any current debevoise lawyers want to reassure incoming summer that they did not totally screw up?
Heard from a friend in the Boston office that GP's #s at non T-14 schools that typically feed a fair amount (BU, BC) are way down from historical levels. Obviously this makes sense with smaller class size as cuts won't be equal among schools.
Still no word on Start Dates for their incoming associates either.
As a Cali 1L, I'd be curious if they have a summer class at all in their SF, SV, SD, LA offices.
Firms should cut their Summer Programs all together. It makes no sense to bring in Summers when there are 1st through 7th years out on the street who would take the temporary Summer Internship in a heartbeat just to get their foot in the door. I know Harvard grads who have been laid off who would gladly take a two month gig to prove that they are worthy.
Summer Programs are an absolute joke in this economy. Why pay some sniveling little law student good money during the Summer of 2009 when you could hire just about anybody you would want in the Fall of 2010, because there is so little demand?
And I am not some laid off Associate. I just know a few good people who have been laid off and who would love the chance to work for a couple of months to prove they have what it takes.
How did DPW and Cravath get called out by Elie while letting the 46% drop at STB go unmentioned?
My NALP is very itchy today. I think I have a glitch that needs to be examined.
14: nice Dirty Work reference. 25 is a philistine.
30 - exactly. Debevoise offered like it was a normal year and Cravath, Simpson, S&C, Latham, etc. would take many of their offerees. Not the case. So everyone rushed to accept Debevoise. They're toast, and the new hires coordinator is sweating for her job.
36-
i am at one of the firms and i know that the number listed there includes other offices.
ATL is actually usable for once without ridiculous load times... new server, or is it a "glitch?"
31 -- I have heard from friends who were mid-levels at GP and got laid off between Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day that things are not good there.
However, it's definitely good that the 2L summer class is very small for 2009. Hopefully they made the corrections they needed and the 2009 summer class will all get offers. They actively made this summer's class very small -- it certainly was NOT that people simply didn't accept offers that were extended.
41: You are being naive. Why would a firm hire laid off attorneys instead of fresh graduates from top schools? It makes no difference for them now because there is not much work going around. However, if they stop hiring at those schools, they jeopardize their reputation and future hiring at those schools.
Quinn changed its longstanding policy and now DOES NOT HIRE 1Ls??????
Quinn used to hire a ton of 1Ls.
31 - Acceptences were more or less static for NALP firms. Offers were way down. You do the math.
Any current Debevoise lawyers no what to make of the numbers? From 67 to 104, but 2 years ago had 103. Financials seemed strong comparatively this year.
Any current Debevoise lawyers know what to make of the numbers? From 67 to 104, but 2 years ago had 103. Financials seemed strong comparatively this year.
I am sure from a law student perspective, some of the declines look awful. However, from a working associate perspective, there are folks who say "Hallelujah!". Would you rather be competing for (A) scant work with tons of overly-aggressive type A colleagues, or (B) just getting on with a better-adjusted amount of work.
The answer is "B", my friends.
I am not defending firms with huge drops. But as a Latham insider, I can say that the Recruiting folks very intentionally were told to be stingy with offers because there are plenty of first and second years who need work. There was no sense in cannibalizing their (billable) work to (unbillable) summer's work. As ass-backward as it sounds, firms with drops are actually adjusting to changing business conditions,while other firms are betting on business as usual.
I have a million friends who are bankers. Or were bankers. They know that things will not be business as usual for many years. Only a few law firms are as candid with themselves and their hiring.
Why is a law blog so concerned about North American Lighting Products Inc.? C'mon Elie, focus!
"Glitch"? Uh, no. It's out there on the site.
2L hiring for 2007, 2008, 2009
Wachtell: 30, 24, 25
Cravath: 91, 160, 121
S&C: 110, 137, 106
Skadden (NY): 153, 103, 103
Skadden (CH): 30, 57, 33
Skadden (LA): 35, 19, 28
Skadden (DC): 34, 33, 22
DPW: 105, 129, 115
Simpson: 110, 109, 57
Latham (LA): 43, 43, 37
Latham (NY): 65, 80, 26
Latham (CH): 37, 25, 21
Latham (OC): 15, 15, 7
Latham (SD): 22, 16, 9
Latham (SF): 20, 22, 13
Latham (SV): 13, 20, 12
Latham (DC): 49, 36, 33
Cleary (NY): 98, 94, 96
Cleary (DC): 18, 14, 23
Weil (NY): 139, 102, 95
Weil (DA): 14, 21, 16
Weil (SV): 20, 14, 23
Kirkland (CH): 85, 54, 50
Kirkland (NY): 48, 40, 48
Kirkland (LA): 18, 18, 18
Kirkland (DC): 38, 30, 19
When, if ever, is violence against partners who have laid off mass numbers of first years justified? What are alternative ways to prevent/punish such toiletrous behavior? Discuss.
*note-I am opposed to violence, but we need to get a dialogue going on this.
41 - die, tyia
The 2008 class was much smaller than Debevoise wanted and it consciously sought to increase the size back up to normal levels - typically 90-100 summers.
If you're looking for summer work, I know where's there's plenty...
If you guessed my balls, you must be a HLS grad.
Where is this ATARI that they are hosting it on anyway?
Latham still has a summer program? Didn't they just massacre their first years and defer a bunch of 3Ls.
LOL.
"Quinn changed its longstanding policy and now DOES NOT HIRE 1Ls??????
Quinn used to hire a ton of 1Ls."
Something about a ship and the sky.
So, where is this ATARI that they are hosting on anyway?
41 - die, tyia
WOLF BLOCK VOTED TO DISSOLVE.
there's not such thing as a non-violent revolution...
there's not such thing as a non-violent revolution...
The fact that my firm has increased its SA class size scares the crap out of me. I was hoping that they'd get the layoffs and SA program cuts out of the way so there's more room for me in 2010.
Given that just about all of these firms are rumored to have been making stealth layoffs, does anyone actually believe that a bigger class size is a positive?
54, why don't you just admit that Latham had to make bigger cuts than other firms because it is poorly diversified and was the worst offender in overhiring during the boom years?
Elie -
These are the number of expected summer associates, not the number of offers extended. Yes, its likely that a big drop in the former reflects a drop in the latter, but you can't assume its the same amount. If the rate of acceptance of offers went up this year, then the drop in offers is even bigger than shown here.
So yea, to echo other posters, does anyone know what's what at Debevoise? Did they over-hire, or is it just another typical year after a really small 2008?
Deb. is still at the full 12 weeks, which I suppose is a good sign. And 100% offer -rate plus no layoffs / buyouts Should future summers be worried about such a large class, or is it actually a good thing (showing the firm wants to expand, etc).
Why on earth would firms scrambling to delay the starts of incoming associates go ahead and hire full summer classes again?
***Economy stays flat, down.***
Small summer class: Good
Large Summer Class: Layoffs, start date delays, pay people ti around
***Economy booming again***
Small Summer Class: Hire laterals, 3Ls, clerks.
Large Summer Class: Good.
Doesn't seem like rocket science that firms have tons more flexibility with a smaller summer class.
there's no such thing as a non-violent revolution...
"So, congratulations to those that survived the fall gauntlet to snatch to become a 2009 summer associate at a top ten firm."
Elie:
If you eliminate "to snatch" it reads much better. Also, you mean "gantlet" not "guantlet."
Does NALP even have a field for number of summer offer? I think they only have the size of the summer class. Therefore, maybe DPW gave the same number of offer but fewer people accepted this year? Who knows?
I'm very happy that my firm went from 90 to 60 summer associates. Seems like a smart, but not drastic, move.
So yea, to echo other posters, does anyone know what's what at Debevoise? Did they over-hire, or is it just another typical year after a really small 2008?
Deb. is still at the full 12 weeks, which I suppose is a good sign. And 100% offer -rate plus no layoffs / buyouts Should future summers be worried about such a large class, or is it actually a good thing (showing the firm wants to expand, etc).
there's not such thing as a non-violent revolution...
48- 31 here, thanks for the info. Given that GP also cut to 9 weeks I can't imagine things are good, but here's hoping the economy picks up a bit and we all have work when things are said and done.
74, are you suggesting that with partners who fire large numbers of first years, violence is the only answer?
"We compares the number of"
Harvard Law or Da Ebonics Institute?
You can take the boy out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the boy...
Sidley to have as many summer associates this summer as it did in 2008? It is disgusting for a firm that has just fired 100 good attorneys to waste money on wining and dining useless summer associates the majority of whom won't get an offer.
81, it is not the only answer. But it will be...
Preview of June 2009:
*camps outside Latham office with a large sign reading "I was laid off after several months of work."*
wonder if any summers will notice.
"We compares" Phroto to the lost city of Gandor. Shmiegel wouldn't hurt a fly!
what does looking at the next 20 mean?
you didn't even really look at the FIRST 20! why do we have to go to the comments to see a chart of what's going on?
hey guys, remember like that one time that Cravath hired 160 summer associates and everyone was like, ooh Cravath did it on purpose to prepare for the economic recovery, Cravath is so smart and never makes mistakes, and then remember that other time a little bit later when Cravath cut bonuses in half? Yeah. I would be wary of any firm that increased its summer class in this climate.
That is number of actual summer associates, you fatass, not offers.
75 -- Epic Fail
86 -- Nerdier epic fail
67/68/74/79/84 is obviously the same psychopath who for several days has been urging laid off attorneys to go get guns and shoot up their offices.
Usually he repeats his posts many times and tells anyone who objects to "shut the @#$ up and quit moralizing."
91, false you asshole.
I am more convinced than ever that Elie is intentionally this bad. His act is kayfabe. Every time a sentence doesn't make sense I think of Roddy Piper cracking a coconut over Snuka's skull
I can't wait until this time next year when all these firms with 100+ summer associates are scrambling to defer start dates and whatnot.
Seems like Goodwin and Debevoise are the only firms being reasonable here.
77 -- Look forward to meeting you this summer.
.i would be very scared if i were going to debevoise this summer. lolpwn3d.
can someone post the NALP 2007/2008/2009 numbers for firms ranked 21 through 50?
The flip side of the Debevoise numbers is that Debevoise is in the fortunate position of having an unusually small incoming class for fall '09, compared to both historic levels and to its peer firms.
These numbers give no sense of context - Debevoise has hired around 100 summers for the last 5-10 years, so this year is back to normal after a very small class last year. Cravath's 2008 summer class was ridiculously huge - they normally hire under 100 - so even though this year looks like a drop it still reflects way more than they could possibly have wanted.
I would be more scurred if i were going to Latham than Deb. Much much more.
On the NALP page, what do the numbers in parentheses mean in the "compensation and employment" section?
WHERE IS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS? HELLO? No sh*t most firms reduced their SA class sizes last fall.
I love how everybody attempts to rationalize the class size reductions in the comments, e.g., "bigger SA class numbers show incompetence" or "bigger numbers show strength." If you are going to any of those firms listed for the summer, be happy you have an offer.
And Elie, you fat bastid, you're right up there with Kevin Mitnick with your NALP exploits. ATL to 31 flavors!
100 - Agreed. It's still too early to tell what kind of need firms will have in fall 2010 and beyond for junior associates. Given that uncertainty, I'd much rather be summering at a firm like Deb that seems to be doing ok and that doesn't appear to have laid of any associates (whether publicly or through stealth layoffs).
Anyone notice Skadden's compensation is "TBD"?
41 you suck at life and so do your friends.
All of the no-offered Deb summers should meet up at Fudruckers in mid August to swap job search techniques while noshing on some extreme fajitas
This chick last night told me that the size of my summer class was way too big for her to handle.
What does it mean if only one of the firm's offices is listed?
Clearly Latham over hired by A LOT in the past few years, especially in NY, and it's reasonable to criticize them for doing so. This is a separate issue from diversification. I don't care how diverse your firm is, no one has the work to keep all of the finance/corporate attorneys busy. This fact is simply multiplied because Latham is such a large firm (and the over hiring).
Latham's summer numbers actually show foresight and good management. If Latham has 80 new hires coming on board from the class of 2009, why wouldn't they offer a generous package to defer some of the start dates to 2010 and drastically reduce the size of this year's summer class? Reducing the size of the summer class today is better than firing 60% of the summer class in a year or two (or non-offering) because the economy hasn't recovered.
Contrary to popular belief, Latham isn't going to collapse. If I were a summer I'd feel very good about my prospects at Latham compared with many other firms. If I was a 2L summering at Debevoise, I'd start practicing flipping burgers and reciting "welcome to McDonalds, can I take your order?"
Lol@ people who think there will actually be a "2009 incoming associate class". Every firm will end up pushing their start dates well into 2010 by the time this is over.
108 - the rest of the offices have dissolved. see ya.
75,
gantlet or gauntlet is acceptable. nice try.
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0140.html
103 - I'd rather be at a firm that had to hire more attorneys down the road because of underestimating demand than one that had to fire attorneys because of overestimating demand.
Yeah, who knows how firms will be doing in the next year or two, but I'd be very skeptical of a firm that was treating it like it was business as usual. Economic conditions of 2003-2007 won't be the same as the next few years. That said, I would feel ok at a firm that has a large white collar/regulatory/internal investigation practice like Deb.
Don't you fucks know that LATHAM is a well diversified firm?
Bob Dell said so in his email announcing mass layoffs, so fuck you.
Hi, I am a Cooley Student. What is an "On-Campus Interview"? I also can't decide if I should work at the local DQ this summer or I should roll the dice at TacoBell. It's open 24 hours, so that might be a challange.
Any advice would be helpful...
109, but their past mass first year layoffs and overhiring show terrible foresight. the same people are making the decisions. drink the koolaid if you want though, i'll see you at Arby's.
2L hiring for 2007, 2008, 2009
Covington: 63, 64, 64
Debevoise: 103, 67, 104
Paul Weiss: 79, 89, 101
W&C: 30, 32, 37
Sidley (CH): 81, 75, 43
Sidley (NY): 55, 45, 44
Sidley (DC): 23, 31, 37
Sidley (LA): 23, 22, 19
Gibson (LA): 35, 45, 42
Gibson (NY): 30, 43, 48
Gibson (OC): 6, 15, 16
Gibson (SF): 12, 16, 8
Gibson (DC): 33, 30, 34
Wilmer (DC): 44, 48, 47
Wilmer (BO): 35, 36, 36
Wilmer (NY): 13, 15, "12-15"
White & Case (NY): 40, 113, 59
White & Case (DC): 30, 42, 19
Shearman: 66, 129, 54
A&P: 36, 66, 34
102: Um, hi, what's up? (awkward)...
Per 117, Wilmer NY is already deciding whether or not to preemptively no offer up to three 2Ls.
Its been 3.5 hours since this was posted and it still refers to the NALP's properly functioning site as a glitch.
Ok, why is it that Elie reports the 10% drop at DPW and the 20% drop at Cravath, but fails to make any mention of the HUGE 46% drop at STB ? I mean, come on, I know it sounds fun to poke fun at Cravath and all, but your favoritism of STB is unfair. For some reason, only the good news happening at STB is reported here (like their Public Service Fellowship program even though so many firms have something similar), whereas the ugly stuff at STB (associate layoffs, etc.) are never once mentioned. It is really disappointing to see such bias and favoritism displayed at ATL.
119 = post of the day.
Ok, why is it that Elie reports the 10% drop at DPW and the 20% drop at Cravath, but fails to make any mention of the HUGE 46% drop at STB ? I mean, come on, I know it sounds fun to poke fun at Cravath and all, but your favoritism of STB is unfair. For some reason, only the good news happening at STB is reported here (like their Public Service Fellowship program even though so many firms have something similar), whereas the ugly stuff at STB (associate layoffs, etc.) are never once mentioned. It is really disappointing to see such bias and favoritism displayed at ATL.
Ok, why is it that Elie reports the 10% drop at DPW and the 20% drop at Cravath, but fails to make any mention of the HUGE 46% drop at STB ? I mean, come on, I know it sounds fun to poke fun at Cravath and all, but your favoritism of STB is unfair. For some reason, only the good news happening at STB is reported here (like their Public Service Fellowship program even though so many firms have something similar), whereas the ugly stuff at STB (associate layoffs, etc.) are never once mentioned. It is really disappointing to see such bias and favoritism displayed at ATL.
The NALP 2L offer numbers definitely don't match up with what some firms I know did last summer. Some shady maneuvering going on to get that 99 or 100% offer rate.
What is a firm to do?
It is slow to adjust to the down market and has to layoff associates; ATL criticizes it.
It adjusts by no-offering summers so it doesn't have to fire them later; ATL criticizes it.
It adjusts by creating smaller classes so it can give 100% offers; ATL criticizes it.
How dare these businesses be susceptible to an economic down turn!
Paul Weiss to pie in the sky!
Ok...maybe this is just me...but when I've always gone through the NALP directory I've been under the impression that the 2009 Expected numbers were estimates.
Look at the main page for the database:
http://www.nalp.org/nalpdirectoryoflegalemployers
It says that the report is published in mid-april. Which means this year's hasn't been actually published yet. The 2007-2008 numbers, with the expected 2009 numbers have been up there since April 2008. They reflect the actual 2007 and 2008 numbers and the estimated 2009 class.
Come mid-April, when the new report is published, the numbers will become the actual 2008 and 2009 class sizes along with an estimate for 2010.
128 here again...If you go into NALPDirectory.com and then click FAQ ( http://nalpdirectory.com/dledir_faq.asp ) and go to the Web User Guide (PDF) and scroll to the Compensation and Employment Data Section you can see that the 2009 numbers reflect ANTICIPATED hiring.
125 - Explain
IS ANYONE THERE???? Will you PLEASE acknowledge the massive error of this post: those numbers are the number of summer associates, NOT the number of summer associate offers. I can't believe you just leave this uncorrected. It's so sloppy.
"We compares the number of summer associate offers extended to 2Ls in 2007"
YOU SUCK ELIE
I WISH YOU WERE A 1L IN THIS ECONOMY
I never berate Elie but this post's analysis is awful.
126, you do not get it, what people are saying here is that Elie only criticizes certain firms and deliberately sweeps under the carpet the actions of other firms. I mean, pointing the finger at DPW for its 10% and Cravath's 25%, and yet missing STB's 46% drop is kinda like spotting the tree but failing to notice the forest. That's a friggin' 46% ! We're talking about almost half less. This is clearly missing the bigger picture.
42, the reason is this:
I am not too sure about Davis Polk, because Elie is usually uo their ass, but Elie really has some kind of unholy hatred for Cravath. They must have dinged him or something, because no matter what Cravath does, he hates on them and tries to make it news. Good news, bad news-- Elie just tries to paint it as terrible news. Cravath is one of the most, and arguably the most, esteemed firm around, so a lot of the hating kind of comes with the territory, but Elie is just biased period. And it really is stupid and immature, especially since there is truth to be reported.
Kind of off topic... but this needs to be addressed. WHY HASN'T WACHTELL ANNOUNCED IT'S PPP AND REVENUE NUMBERS? I've heard rumors about a HUGE drop in both. It is almost April for God's sake.. why haven't they reported the numbers? Now no matter what they report is just going to look shady.
Someone provide a coherent argument for why firms have the same or increasing summer class sizes (see Debevoise and Ropes and Gray).
I cannot wrap my head around it.
What is the benefit to having 100+ summer associates this year?
Isn't that a huge money waste, not to mention setting your firm up for more bad publicity in August when people get no-offered and again this time next year when start dates are pushed back?
Is Elie on STB's payroll ?
Well, 137, some firms (Debevoise for one) had fewer summers than it wanted to last year. The number of associates starting in '09 is significantly smaller, so they were ready for the downturn. The summer class this year will not be starting full-time until '10. Hopefully, the economy is emerging from the downturn by then. If so, those firms that hired fewer last year and more this year put themselves in a pretty good position when business picks up.
139 - definitely agree. Better waste extra money on summers who'll start in Fall 2010 with lower associate money in Fall 2009. The major issue for all firms is class 2009, not class 2010. Well, hopefully the economy will be in a better shape by then.
Then again, extra money these days is bad for all, so both situations are somewhat scary.
It seems nervous T10 1L is either (a) a flame or (b) really easy to locate. Probably not more than 100 1L's in the entire country. Cross-check against Meatchicken and there we go.
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As an aside, I applaud the demise of the 1L summer associate position.
137, there's no guarantee that any firm will actually have a larger class. Again, these numbers are ESTIMATES. Speaking for my firm (small, east coast), the form is about 50% different from our actual numbers.
V & E Houston went from 40 summers in 2008 to 77 in 2009!!! Does anyone think that was on purpose?
137 - those, and other top firms will not no-offer a significant number of summers. they are not TTT like the firms that have conducted mass layoffs.
Smaller summer associate class than 2007 or 2006: not worried. Firm already made some cuts, and would love to make 95-100% offers while those who took big classes offer ~60%.
Summer class actually larger than NALP numbers say: Time to worry. Firm is not estimating. Instead, it is looking to no offer some folks but still appear to offer at 95-100%.
to 142: numbers for megafirms with 1000+ attorneys aren't listing summer classes of "63" because they are "estimating."
143 -- something is going on. B&B has 29 2Ls in Houston, from 50 or so in 2008.
Either v&e's yield was was better than expected at b&b's expense, or v&e is deliberately trying to boost leverage (at a weird time). the other offices seem consistent.
Wow, the Arnold and Porter numbers are shocking.
There is nothing new here. In the current economic climate, Latham had an overcapacity problem. The recent RIF (reduction in force) was just one way for us to realign our resources to better serve clients' needs. The adjustment you're seeing in Latham's summer program is just another aspect of making sure that we're situated properly in regards to available work.