NALP’s Numbers on 2009 Summer Programs
Yesterday, we mentioned a NALP “glitch” that allowed users to get a sneak peak at the organization’s 2009 statistics about law firms. The problem, whatever it was, was fixed soon after we alerted NALP to the problem. Here’s the quick statement we obtained from NALP:
Legal employers provide this data to NALP each winter. NALP is pleased to be able to publish this free online searchable database each spring once the data submissions are finalized.
Excellent. It’s a great resource.
As promised, today we take a look at some of the overall summer program numbers from the firms that are ranked 11 through 20, according to Vault (check out firms 1 - 10 here).
The moderately surprising fact is that this next batch of firms didn’t decrease their overall summer associate offers as much as the Vault top ten. Looking at the firm’s New York offices, there was a 14% decrease in offers to 2Ls, compared with a nearly 20% decrease in the V10.
But, one firm really does skew those numbers. More details after the jump.
As many commenters pointed out once the results went live, Debevoise & Plimpton showed a 55% increase in the size of its summer class. If you take that firm out of the equation, the other nine firms in the V11 - V20 showed a net drop in summer class size of 22%.
Many of our commenters wanted to know what happened at Debevoise. One commenter said:
Debevoise offered like it was a normal year and Cravath, Simpson, S&C, Latham, etc. would take many of their offerees. Not the case. So everyone rushed to accept Debevoise.
We reached out to Debevoise about the size of its summer class. The firm furnished Above the Law with the following statement:
The firm’s 2009 summer class is in keeping with the firm’s historical norms, with last year being among the smaller of our classes in recent years. We look forward to engaging all of our summers in a variety of challenging and diverse assignments.
Many of our commenters saw that argument coming:
The 2008 class was much smaller than Debevoise wanted and it consciously sought to increase the size back up to normal levels - typically 90-100 summers.
Another commenter offered this analysis:
The flip side of the Debevoise numbers is that Debevoise is in the fortunate position of having an unusually small incoming class for fall ‘09, compared to both historic levels and to its peer firms.
I wonder if this information will help or hurt Debevoise in its close battle with DPW in our “Safest Firms” bracket?
There were some other highlights from this batch of firms. White & Case significantly reduced the size of its summer program, there are 48% fewer summers scheduled to be at the firm this year.
But leading the move towards smaller summer programs is Shearman & Sterling. According to NALP, the Shearman is looking at a 58% drop in the size of its summer class.
1Ls, of course, remain totally screwed. I don’t know what they are doing this summer, but working at a top law firm does not a appear to be an option.
Earlier: NALP Glitch Gives Early Preview of 2009 Summer Program Numbers
(74) Comments
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blah blah
You "altered" NALP? You are fat and retarded?
Firsty! Altered = Alerted
FUUUURST
You "altered" NALP?
You are fat and retarded.
Lat:
Please either come back to ATL or get an Equity Private or Bess L. caliber writer to blog for this site. I am a litigator but consistently read Dealbreaker instead of ATL. You know why? Because Dealbreaker is about 1000 times funnier, more insightful and all-around better than this site has become. With so many readers, it's a shame that this site is so amatuerish now. Peace out amigo.
You pretenders can suck it.
- blah blah
LAAAUUUGGGHHHSS
Okay there are lots of crappy posts on ATL these days, but this one (and it's prior incarnation) really take the cake for sucking the most.
I agree with #6. Elie is a journalistic abortion and a true embarrassment to the trade.
I'm in an altered state. Someone alter the authorities.
QUINN USED TO HIRE 1LS, BUT NO LONGER DOES SO.
Elie . . . you have to do better. You didn't even post the most recent Saul Ewing layoffs.
can someone please "alter" me to what the glitch was? Didn't they just publish the results. I'm not seeing any changes from yesterday and today.
12 -- come to TX, where the only thing bigger than my 3500 sq ft, wife, and lexis is my paycheck!!!
I'm confused how Heller Ehrman is still ranked. Don't they not exist anymore?
What were Paul Weiss's numbers?
I find that my opinion of the firms that took decisive action early has changed somewhat over the past two months. I now view some of those measures as a display of savvy management -- getting our ahead of the curve.
And as a mid-level associate, I applaud aggressive efforts to shrink summer programs.
Why is there no data here?
Ellie has the numbers so why don't we have a chart showing this year, last year, and the percentage change? (or even more years would be better).
Does anyone know Proskauer Rose's 2009 summer numbers? I heard that Proskauer increased the size of its summer class signficantly over the past couple years.
YAY!! I've been waiting minutes for another post which offers nothing new or of any use whatsoever to anyone!
Thanks, Elie. You're a trusted source for analysis- and content-free drivel, replete with errata.
I still don't understand the "glitch" to which Elie keeps referring. NALP had the 2009 summer data up yesterday on almost every firm I examined. Can someone explain?
Oh 15, where to begin?
(1) man, that's a big wife;
(2) I don't drive one, but I can spell Lexus (point to me);
(3) glaring absence of your "manhood" on your list of "big" things. Sorry, my friend, but look on the brightside: you've got an abnormally large wife and nice car to compensate!
Yours coastally,
Me
Agree with 6.
Dealbreaker is far superior and has better insight including legal insight.
Amazing....Really...
What is this, half an article? Where the fuck are the rest?
Did everyone notice that White & Case "made significantly reduced the size of its summer program," whatever the hell that means, Elie. Have you ever considered proofreading your posts?
Seriously, did he even get his GED equivalency or what? I think we all see now why he is no longer in practice.
No layoffs today! Clearly the recession is over!
Thanks 10. I don't really want to rip on Elie, although it would be well-deserved. I'm just really disappointed that the "premier" site for lawyers has devolved into this painfully boring drivel. It's ironic that lawyers are generally considered better writers than finance-types and yet the finance-type website (Dealbreaker) is so far superior to ATL. Lat, please listen.
-- 6
Sorry about your tiny pink summer program Latham.
speaking of debevoise
http://eliemystttalspeaks.ytmnd.com/
The only Dealbreaker I can think of is having a 3500 sq ft wife. That would definitely break any deal.
LOL @ 30...phenomenal...
30!! Hilarious!!!
30 here...I didn't create that, it's an old one from when Elie first came in.
I'm one of the lucky Texan 1Ls to have a Summer Associate position in BigLaw this summer, but most of the 1Ls here at Harvard are having to practice their fake speeches on how they care about public service.
17 NAILED IT!
29 - I'd rather be a summer in Latham's lean summer program then fill a spot in an already bloated program elsewhere, but I'm guessing that is very TTT of me.
I think 18 is right.
23: you fell for an obvious and oft-repeated flame. you, sir, are a moron. that is all.
30 pwns Elie
What about Covington?
What about Covington?
37, 18, ask associates at those firms how much work they have right now.
some firms were hit MUCH harder by this recession than others.
or, you can drink the "we're a well diversified firm" koolaid. i don't really care.
Another voice in the crowed wishing ATL would do something other than block quotes and summaries of what's available elsewhere.
How about a chart? Other meaningful analysis?
As a female 1L, I plan to get a paying summer clerkship by working "at top a law firm." I can only hypothesize as to what that will entail...
30 is amazing
Love 30. Can someone give a reasonable explanation for why Heller and Thelen are on the Vault rankings? And how does it feel to work at a firm that ranks below either one of those?
42: Who said anything about being "well diversified"? I think the point 37 was trying to make -- albeit not very clearly -- is that from the position of a summer associate, there are obvious benefits to being a part of a program that has been scaled back in size.
Your point about some firms being hit harder than others is well taken, but what evidence do you have that every firm that scaled back their summer program has been hit hard by this downturn? Isn't it possible that some firms in the V-10 displayed prudent management by making less offers to 2Ls this fall?
If those 1L numbers are reported as of year-end 2008, then they could be misleading. A lot of firms did not offer 1Ls until January and February (after grades).
Failed as a lawyer, failed as a journalist...What's next, Elie? Got that application to DeVry filled out?
40/41: exact same class size as last year and the year before. (also no layoffs coming and no pay freeze) DC firms never bought into the high-leverage model so there's a lot less fat to cut in lean times.
@ 16; yes they don't not exist.
48, all of the numbers are presumably equally misleading because all are estimates. On the other thread, some people mentioned that NALP missed the actual numbers at some firms by as much as 50%.
47, there are benefits to going to a firm that is not oversubscribe. there are no benefits to going to a firm that chopped it's summer program because there's no work.
my evidence is what i've learned from conversations with my biglaw peers. you should seek out info on how much work associates at these firms have.
30 = epic apocalyptic WIN!!!!!! Please update often. Best schtick ever.
Do people actually consider working at firms ranked this low?
Um- did I miss what Gibson did? Hello?
people, do you know you don't need to ask about firm...there is no gitch necessary. all the new data is up. just go to nalp and look at whatever firm you want
1) Elie to NALP: "Look out! I've found a glitch!!! your info is available online!!";
2) NALP to Elie: "NALP is pleased to be able to publish this [info] each Spring";
3) NALP leaves the info online;
4) Elie pats himself on the back for a job well done.
For all the crap S&S takes on this blog, they seem to have been more prudent than many of the other V20 firms.
If you don't like Elie, stop reading his/this site. I appreciate the insight & updates... thank you.
Fuck the haters, Elie.
Lawyers are the biggest bitches, right next to all the fucking douches in law school.
Keep posting.
As a side note: Remember when you were sophist, and no one knew what you looked like, what your race is, or that you might not be the skinniest guy in the room? And remember when you were voted as the next editor of ATL?
Fuck you, haters.
The top firms still hire 1L Summer Associates, but not at their US offices. If you have language skills, try the international offices of these firms in a region where your language skill will be relevant. I got my 1L summer associateship job with a V25 firm this way.
Today marks a new low for ATL.
-Nobody cares about the March Madness thing. Nobody.
-The Bellydancer post is absurd.
-This post is full of quoting comments from people that arepulling stuff out of their asses.
-Notes from the BreadWhine
-Collection of links of stories nobody cares about.
-The Dewey post is the only post that is of value.
Based on what we're seeing in the marketplace and YTD pace, a reduction of the 2009 Summer Program at Latham is completely warranted. Some of these changes, especially the recent reduction in force, were difficult to do. However, I feel that by making painful decisions at the right time has allowed Latham to be well positioned for the foreseeable future.
Greenberg Traurig NYC cut the summer program to 7 weeks @ 125k a year pay scale today.
Please investigate.
why aren't some firms' offices listed for this year?
3500 sq ft wife, didn't read
It seams like OCI 2008 was a process planned well in advance of any recession news. Considering the news we've been getting since December, the size of the 2009 SA class should be much smaller. For example Ropes Boston had 107 SAs in 2008, but has 110 for 2009??? That's crazy... They were talking about that 110 figure in OCI 2007 and for some reason decided not to change anything after the shit hit the fan in early 2008.
Does this mean that I'm not going to get the summer associate gig with WILDMAN HARROLD?
56- The first rule of Gibson Dunn...
16 tell us again how Latham is a well diversified firm. You know, like in the mass layoffs email that was posted here?
I can't tell whether the Bob Dell troll is really Bob Dell. I'm scared.
Elie, you failed to report STB's 46% drop in the size of its summer class. That's like half the size. I would have thought that would be noteworthy enough to be pointed out.
Elie, you failed to report STB's 46% drop in the size of its summer class. That's like half the size. I would have thought that would be noteworthy enough to be pointed out.