leave law school now...my loan paytments are 1200 a month...that is a mortgage...if you cant get a job go get a position waitering and relax until the job market improves. DO NOT FINISH LAW SCHOOL

cosign?

Just learn to adapt like I did. I now raise and train face eating chimps called CHOMPERS that can be hired out by the hour to take out your enemies.

Mystal is such an insufferable douche.

The suggestion that you should continue to invest in two more years of tuition and foregone wages because a J.D. will "qualify you to do many other things" is ludicrous. The ONLY thing a J.D. qualifies you to do is sit for the bar exam and practice law. True, you could open up a bar, start your own business, or become a freelance writer -- but these are all things you could accomplish just as easily without a J.D., and without the $75K extra debt you'll take on over the next 2 years. If you're passionate about the law, then you may want to stick it out. A T20 school is a great school; it's very sad that your career opportunities are so limited. Somebody who gets into a T20 school shouldn't feel shut out like you this. But if it's really the case, then think long and hard about why you're in law school. If it's to do something else besides practice law, get out now.

quit, shave your head and move to tibet

Dick comment about Natasha Richardson, Marin.

I like the chompers idea.

CT slim

I am not easily offended, but your comment about Natasha Richardson was in very poor taste. Her family is grieving and the world will more than likely go without a tireless advocate and fundraiser for AIDs awareness and research. Shame on you.

Agree with 1 and 8. Tacky, tasteless, and not even clever.

The correct answer is finish the semester, see your grades do OCI (which should occur before the semester begins and bills are do) and re-evaluate at that point. The 40K is gone but it entitles you to OCI so you mat as well do that. That said if your grades are poor and you strike out at OCI cutting your losses is a good idea. GL either way.

Natasha Richardson comment=topical and hilarious

"cosign yourself to a profession that clearly already bores you" Huh?

No one likes a quitter.

horsehockey.

If you go to law school because you "genuinely enjoy learning about the law", you're a moron.

You can learn as much about the law with $500 in books and some trips to your county's law library in your spare time as you can from all but a handful of the top schools. You don't need to pay someone $120,000 to satisfy this supposed love of learning about the law.

First of all, a JD is a good general education. It just is.

Second of all, if you must drop out, at least try to get a big law job and participate in your OCI program this fall. If you are unsuccessful, then drop out.

Otherwise, make the most of your program, which sounds like a good one. It sounds like you are not the kind of student who is making the most and exploiting the networking avenues. So yes, you might not succeed in law. Or anything, for that matter.

Marin,your comment about Natasha Richardson is wrong. I don't think she was ever actually a "celebrity."

Get out. My loan payment is over 1000 a month for 30 years. Latham just laid me off as a first year. The severance after taxes will be about 45-50k. That'll barely make a dent in my loans, plus i'd have nothing to live on. I won't be getting another job soon because the market is terrible.

Latham: worst decision I ever made.

If you're at a Top 20 Law School and you actually enjoy the practice of law, then it's probably worth staying. As someone who's been in the legal profession for years (first as a big-firm associate, then as an in-house counsel and now as a recruiter for several years), I can say that the people who should drop out are those at lower tier schools -- with the exception of folks who just planned to hang out their own shingle anyway. There are too many law schools in this country, and pretty much all private law schools beyond number 100 or so are exploiting the majority of their students, who won't ever find the kind of jobs necessary to justify taking on all that debt. Bottom line -- if you didn't get into a top 100 program and you still hope to work in Big Law, wake up and go do something else.

Getting biglaw at OCI guarantees nothing these days. See over half the first year class at Latham NY.

Considering all the whining from Latham first years it seems like they made the right choice in laying off all you cry babies.

Longhorn JD = 3500 sq ft, wife, and a Lexis.

suck it, northerners!

ATL is so focused on the biggest firms in the biggest cities that it's easy to forget that there are firms out there that aren't hurting quite as badly. Maybe your salary starts at 100K-120K instead of 160K, but with decent grades from a T20 school you CAN find a job.

@23 It's Lexus.

Do a cost benefit analysis - there are thousands of recent graduates who regret going to law school. This was the case a few years ago. Imagine what the opportunities are now. People who graduated magna from T2-T4 are struggling to find $20/hr jobs or any jobs. There are median students from T30 schools who cant find jobs. The fact is very few of you will be abel to find jobs that will pay for your loans. It is a real problem when law schools continue to pump out law students knowing that at least a good third to even half of them will struggle with the burden of paying off school loans. Taking out loans over 100K is unconscionable when VERY FEW people will be able to get a 160K job - especially now. Think about the hundreds of 1st and 2nd years who have been laid off from their firm jobs who cannot find a job, graduated at the top of their class from a T20 school who will not be able to find a comparable or close to comparable job even after having taken out over 150K in loans. My friend got kicked out after he completed he first year at BIGLAW firm for "performance" reasons - even after partner who gave him the talk told him there wasnt enough work. He was one of the lucky ones and was able to start a new gov job paying 65K a week after their last day at the firm. (The firm gave him 2 months severance and expected him to work half of it at the firm). He now has to struggle on 65K salary with 160K loans, which were at 180K a year ago. This person only has to pay 1100 in rent and lives in queens but still has very little discretionary money after all necessary bills are taken in to account and had to reduce their loan monthly payments. This person graduated from Columbia law school with a B+ average, graduated from a hard Ivy for undergrad, and came from a prestigious new england prep school. What does that say about your chances - that this person with this background and great personality and social involvement got lucky finding a 65K gov job after being kicked out of their 160K job?

Do a cost benefit analysis - there are thousands of recent graduates who regret going to law school. This was the case a few years ago. Imagine what the opportunities are now. People who graduated magna from T2-T4 are struggling to find $20/hr jobs or any jobs. There are median students from T30 schools who cant find jobs. The fact is very few of you will be abel to find jobs that will pay for your loans. It is a real problem when law schools continue to pump out law students knowing that at least a good third to even half of them will struggle with the burden of paying off school loans. Taking out loans over 100K is unconscionable when VERY FEW people will be able to get a 160K job - especially now. Think about the hundreds of 1st and 2nd years who have been laid off from their firm jobs who cannot find a job, graduated at the top of their class from a T20 school who will not be able to find a comparable or close to comparable job even after having taken out over 150K in loans. My friend got kicked out after he completed he first year at BIGLAW firm for "performance" reasons - even after partner who gave him the talk told him there wasnt enough work. He was one of the lucky ones and was able to start a new gov job paying 65K a week after their last day at the firm. (The firm gave him 2 months severance and expected him to work half of it at the firm). He now has to struggle on 65K salary with 160K loans, which were at 180K a year ago. This person only has to pay 1100 in rent and lives in queens but still has very little discretionary money after all necessary bills are taken in to account and had to reduce their loan monthly payments. This person graduated from Columbia law school with a B+ average, graduated from a hard Ivy for undergrad, and came from a prestigious new england prep school. What does that say about your chances - that this person with this background and great personality and social involvement got lucky finding a 65K gov job after being kicked out of their 160K job?

"You can learn as much about the law with $500 in books and some trips to your county's law library in your spare time as you can from all but a handful of the top schools. You don't need to pay someone $120,000 to satisfy this supposed love of learning about the law."

Good Will Hunting put it much better:

WILL: Wood drastically -- Wood 'drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth.' You got that from Vickers, 'Work in Essex County,' page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you...is that your thing? You come into a bar. You read some obscure passage and then pretend...you pawn it off as your own idea just to impress some girls and embarrass my friend? See the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One: don't do that. And two: You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f----n' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library.

CLARK: Yeah, but I will have a degree. And you'll be serving my kids fries at a drive-through on our way to a skiing trip.

To Quitting Time - don't be Clark. There are enough douche bags from T20 schools running around these days.

Yeah that Natasha Richardson dig probably wasn't so hot. There are plenty of other older celebrity skiing references that are probably far enough in the past to be safe to joke about. Sonny Bono, anyone?

Wow, long time reader, first time poster. The Richardson comment shows a complete lack of class. Not even a "too soon?" thrown in there.

23's wife is 3500 sq. ft? Now THAT'S a Texas-sized woman!

Give me a break. Your first year OCI didn't go well and you want to give up already? Oh you had to volunteer! Poor little you! Cry me a friggin river. The entitlement of some of you little douche bags sickens me.

You go to a top 20 law school. If you honestly don't feel like you have job opportunities, especially after you graduate and pass, you are either lazy or stupid or both. Believe it or not you can pay your loans and still eat, sleep, and pee in a ceramic toilet on 50K a year.

The lack of layoff posts is disheartening to say the least.

23 - since you don't actually know how to spell "lexus," I am assuming you don't have one. Unless you meant to refer to "lexis nexis," in which case, have at it, boy!

I was in Chinatown once and thought I bought a Lexus but upon closer inspection it turned out to be a Lexis.

@26/27

A. 65k is more than enough to make payments on a 180k Loan...
B. What that tells me is that pedigree doesn't mean shit.

Take a leave of absence. That way, you can always return if you change your mind. You might take some time off and realize how law is a good fit for you after all. It's always good to keep your options open.

My wife is the size of Ft Worth and I just bought an Ackura.

Texis Prestige

THIS WEBSITE IS PAINFULLY SLOW. IT NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED SO THAT IT LOADS FASTER.

PLS HNDL THX.

geee - i guess when someone goes to columbia law and goes biglaw they do it for that cushy 60K gov job for "getting by" making monthly payments to pay off 160K in loans - are you STOOPID?

Its a shaky investment even when someone desparately desires to be an attorney and will do it for 50K a year carrying a 160K student loan. NO ONE should be carrying that type of debt and think thats OK, unless its for a home.

Shameless Ducktalian Trolling.

yah 22. i mean, who'd be upset about being thrown out into a terrible economy after several months of work? i mean, these people probably only turned down several other offers to go to Latham.

most people do it for the money and not for the LAW ...and in that case its a BAD INVESTMENT. get out if you expect to make big money - if you are not passionate about it it is a waste.

In retrospect, I wish I had left after first year. It's hard to quit something, I realize, after you've told everyone you are going to law school and quit your job, etc. But the prospects are not good for lawyers in this country right now. I now find myself, after 2 years at biglaw, at a state gov job making $53K. There are no opps for advancement and the state does not do step increases. That means I'm moving backwards (our cola raises, when we get them, don't match inflation). The bizzare thing is that I'm one of the luckier ones in the profession. And even if you do make it to biglaw. That is a miserable life--60 hour weeks, jerk partners, no job security. If you are even moderately good at science and math, you might consider getting prereqs done at a community college and then entering into some school's nursing or pa program. The medical field is one of the few fields where qualified people are actually in demand. Nurses work hard but it's shift work and they are actually respected by society. Another option is to teach high school. Again, it's hard work but pretty rewarding. Plus you will have summers off.

Marin,

It's a money bin, not a vault.

This law student should withdraw, cut losses, and look for work. A JD is not the new master's degree, just as much as a BA is not the new GED/diploma. Grow up, people. Law school is not for everyone. Timing is everything, and your timing is bad (though that is not your fault).

QUIT! You will never regret that decision.

Way too soon on the Richardson joke. The woman appears to be brain dead and they're probably going to pull the plug sometime this week.

Pretty poor taste.

Call BS on 23. A Lexis? Seriously? You drive the Shepardize to the cattle ranch when not driving your Lexis? Dolt.

Obama can have my JD and debt. I'm out.

-Laid Off 1st Year

20 is right. I was a 1L at a top 10 school when the early 90's legal market tanked, layoffs abounded and students were terrified. Within a few years all was fine. I had no trouble getting a job and the economy was gangbusters in no time. If you are not at a top 20 school maybe my advice would be different, of course.

Reading the bloodbaths that have taken place, if one does not finish near the top at anything other than a T-14, it would be downright stupid to exacerbate the debt-load.

Society does not need any more paper-peddlers. Our economy is saturated with schmucks with JDs and MBAs that contribute nothing. (Not proud of being one of them, but nobody steered me clear).

Do yourself, and more importantly, society a favor and if you can, get into environmental or mechanical engineering. We need some good scientific minds that can create innovations.

One word for you Quitting Time- "plastics."

[@44: 60 hours/wk at a biglaw firm? that's either not really a biglaw firm or you got off waaaaay easy. that would have been a "cake-walk-week" at the biglaw firm i left a year ago.]

i agree with those who vote that you take a leave, figure out what you want to do and what the market is like, and then make the decision.

Agree with the others. Making a joke about life threatening injuries is shameful. Additionally, it doesn't do much for the credibility of ATL to allow an amoral self-involved twit to be its mouthpiece. I expect some idiocy in the comments section but I really thought the actual employees maintained some level of taste and decency. Whoever Marin is (other than her excerable submissions to the "write-on" I know nothing) she really should be fired.

16--take that Frank Zappa shit someplace else. A person can't learn *on their own* what they'll learn with faculty guidance in a community of other students.

A Woo Oo

I go to a TTTT school and love it, expensive or not.

Sigh

I go to a TTTT school and love it, expensive or not.

Sigh

If you really hate law, quit and do what you love. If you find law interesting, or at least as interesting as anything else you can think of doing, here's an idea. Although I'm not sure if it would work for you.

Spend one more semester at your current school so you can participate in OCI. Then transfer to a lower ranked school next to your parent's house, and ask for a scholarship. Tell employers and your law school you had to move due to family reasons. (If they don't let you start in the middle of the year, take a semester off and work any job you can find...) Then network your ass off, using both law school's alumni networks.

If you dislike the law and don't really want to be a lawyer, then quit. Otherwise stick it out because you've made it through the hardest part of law school and the market will turn around. So what if you have to take a first job that pays less or is less prestigious, sooner or later you'll have the experience to move elsewhere.

Another option is to switch to go part-time and work. it willr educe your debt.

I bought a sweet Polex watch last week. It goes really well with my Pucci loafers.

any of you dips not related to Natasha Richardson need to go swallow a bunch of pills. Along with former Lathamites

"to scavenger"?

Forget about the money, the majority of lawyers are not overturning convictions based on DNA evidence, or saving the whales (these jobs seem to be harder to attain than Big Law jobs).

In Big Law, they convince judges to define employees as 'independent contractors,' screwing working individuals out of FLSA protection. In crappy Insurance Defense Law, they defend con-artist insurance companeis from paying con-artist doctors.

Think of all the lawyers this country has that could be doing something better, if they spent their energy in pursuing other matters.

32 is right.

Emilio Pucci is actually a real fashion lable. Very high-end too.

If you're going to incur that kind of debt and are relying on BigLaw to pay it off, you'd better learn to sing.

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

My Lexis and 3500 sq ft wife would eat your Pucci alive.

Houston Prestige

"the rest of us have to scavenger to find work."

You mean like a scavenger hunt? Well then, I suggest you find the following items:

A yellow button;
A picture of a man in a Sombrero;
A $5 million book of business; and
A duck feather

it's rather comical to me that so many people are upset about the celebrity skiing/natasha richardson reference. after all, atl commenters, you are the very people who gladly trash and degrade people on a regular basis. is that somehow more appropriate than a simple joke like this? get real, people. this was like letterman-level insensitivity.

ATROCIOUS DUCKTALIAN TROLLING. FIGHT, WHOKEBIANS, FIGHT!

69 - Snark is snark, but there *are* boundaries however ill-defined. Recall that the commentariat said nothing but praise for Charlie Whitebread.

Like what, 63?

Marin, that "joke" about Ms. Richardson is beyond tasteless.

Houston Prestige, your 3500 sq ft wife is a lesbian? Isn't it bible country down there?

Marin is a perfect example of a waste at a T20 and the stupidity of law school admissions. While there are many of those that, for some reason, get the thin envelopes from T20s during application time, but go on to be in the top 5% of a lower tier law school, demonstrating that they could be successful at any law school in the nation, we have people like Marin who waste the opportunity and can't even do well and have the confidence to get a public interest job.

I'm convinced that any of these "top tier" schools have at least 50% of students that don't belong there in the first place and just took the place of someone more deserving. Guess that essay on your desire to go to law school since you were two and lofty ambitions to save the world was written well!

If you really hate law, quit and do what you love. If you find law interesting, or at least as interesting as anything else you can think of doing, here's an idea. Although I'm not sure if it would work for you.

Spend one more semester at your current school so you can participate in OCI. Then transfer to a lower ranked school next to your parent's house, and ask for a scholarship. Tell employers and your law school you had to move due to family reasons. (If they don't let you start in the middle of the year, take a semester off and work any job you can find...) Then network your ass off, using both law school's alumni networks.

A duck swims a pile of coins. Why?

Hey everybody, look! A law student looking for feedback on the economics of a decision from fellow law students and lawyers!

A 1L will graduate in 2011. 700+ ($BILLIONS) will have been spent by then (at least). The economy will be on an upswing and law firms that have downsized will be fighting once more for talent. At median from a T-20 you will get some law-related job for your 2L summer (even if not big-firm) and then convert that into some law job coming out full-time. Making a decision to drop out because the economy has bottomed is backward looking and makes no sense.

Besides, now your opportunity costs are even lower than in a good economy (really, what are your alternatives?) This improves the value of sticking with the law school for two more years and then exiting in a market upswing.

Lord, it is depressing reading questions and comments relating to economic from law students. We need an economics phd to be part of this blog.

77:

There will be no economic recovery so long as Oblahmuh is the commander in thief, so get over yourself. A 1L who will graduate is 2013 may have some job prospects. But not until then or thereafter.

Even I know its still too soon for the Natasha Richardson reference, and I'm a superfreak!

Just quit. Wish I had as a 1L. HLS 2006 grad.

Been said, but that was truly a heinous attempt at humor at Natasha Richardson's expense. You should apologize and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Marin, re: your update. We did get that, and we did click through to the link. It doesn't make your lame attempt at humor somehow tasteful (even for the low standards required by this blog). It was truly disgusting. You were obviously trying to get a laugh out of a topical news story. Problem is, this is a wife and mother who is, apparently, brain dead. Horrible joke. You should apologize.

Who chose T14? Why not T12 or T15?

Leave school now.... Reapply to T3 and T4s. If your at a T20 you probably have a high enough LSAT to get a free ride at one of those places. Bust your ass, finish top of your class, LR, and go dominate. Prestige outside of T10 is dead anyway.

My law school loans are low. I owe about $300/month, so I come at this from a different perspective, maybe. Get you're law degree. A legal education is valuable, IMO, without the professional opportunities that may flow from it. However, I think a legal education is also valuable from an economic perspective.

In my opinion, this is not a decision that you should EVER make based on the economy. There will always be boom and bust periods. I'm 28 and in my lifetime this is the 3rd recession that I remember experiencing. The only thing I know is that the country will recover, and thereafter, there will be another recession.

I think it makes sense to take a recession into account in terms of timing when to go to law school, but truthfully, you're probably in the very best place you could be in right now.

Otherwise, make this decision based on what will improve your life. I think getting a law degree improved my life a lot. I am doing what I always wanted to do. Even if I get laid off tomorrow, I will have no regrets.

I feel no regret for a few reasons, but my main reason is that since the start of my legal career, I have never worked at a sweatshop. I think people are miserable and think a law degree isn't worth it because they work at these churn and burn factories that require associates to mortgage their professional aspirations in order to artificially inflate PPP. The model used by these outfits requires that certain associates never learn how to practice law, because if these did, they would be too happy to leave.

A lot of people are miserable 3 and 4 years out because the career services depts at their law schools claimed that these churn and burn outfits were the 'elite' firms and that the only way to live a good life as a lawyer was to work at one of them. So talented young lawyers self-select for these high paid dead end jobs and become disenchanted when they finally realize what has happened.

I purposefully went to a "lifestyle" firm that was not highly leveraged in terms of associates. I knew this meant that I would earn less, and I have. But I also knew I would get better opportunities earlier in my career and I knew that I would experience higher job satisfaction as a result.

I think too many people are panicked and talking crazy because they made the wrong decision and went to a churn and burn firm or they simply have no clue what they want out of their law degree or what they want their legal practice to look like.

Don't be one of those people. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Go to law school, get your JD. Be discerning about the job that you choose, and you will be fine.

T-14 is better, but T-20 isn't that bad. If you're in the top half of your class and make an effort, there ought to be options by graduation time. The other question is what are your alternatives. If you're going to law school because you don't like/have alternatives, law school may still be the best option. Just be aware of the risks and don't do it half-assed.

86, you owe $300 a month, you have no perspective.

Visit the loan repayment calculator to find out what its like not to be breastfed until the age of 28

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

Have you considered transferring to a less expensive school, or one that offer you more financial aid?

You might also want to think about a JD/MBA, especially at one of the schools that offer them in 3 years.

88 -- Sorry, hun. No family money here. I earned a partial scholarship and I worked two jobs throughout law school. I also went to a state school on a full scholarship plus stipend for undergrad and as an undergrad.......drumroll please....I lived at home.

The difference between me and you is that I was willing to suffer a little in the present in order to lay a foundation for a smoother future. Delayed gratification and taking advice from reasonable people has made my quality of life much better. I was trying to pass that same advice along.

So my perspective, while different, is no less valid than yours.

I quit reading at the celebrities and skislopes reference. What kind of vulgar pig would think that's funny?

@86 Your top-notch legal education forgot to teach you the difference between "your" and "you're"

All of the responses before mine have been terrible. Here is the correct advice:

1) If you are in the top 25% at your school, transfer to a T14. Continue to study and do well. Graduate with honors, and get a good job.

2) If you are in the top 50%, but not really transfer material, the choice is yours. Realize that big firm partner money is off the table, but recognzie you can get a job in Nashville, Austin or even LA making 80k.

3) If you are not in the top 50%, or think you might not stay in the top 50%, head for the door.

Signed,

2007 1st Tier non T14 law grad at the 50th percentile.

This letter is silly because even in a good economy, lots of smart 1L's at top 20 schools don't get summer jobs at major firms. That being said, it will probably be a tough 2L OCI for this soon-to-be 2L. Apply outside your comfort zone and hope for the best.

I think the whole field of law is a racket. My wife went through four years of medical school and incurred tons of debt. Then she had five years of working like a slave, and then when she finally finished her training, began earning less than the 24 year old nitwit who just graduated law school.

I do feel bad for the folks just out of school with 150K+ in debt who have been laid off, but what were you expecting? You didn't have any marketable skills, just a worthless piece of paper saying JD. For a short while you got lots of money, but when the music stopped, the money stopped and you realized that a securitization or capital markets attorney has minimal or no usefulness in society.

I'd bail. One option is to transfer your law credits to a masters program. I think George Mason has a program in law & economics that allows you to take the credits from your first year of law school, add in some econ courses from GMU, and walk away with a degree. It's more debt, sure, but it costs less than two more years of law school, and at least you get a degree to show for it.

Bottom line, if you're in this game for the money, then run like hell and get out as soon as you possibly can.

Even if you can get the biglaw job paying the biglaw bucks, it's a MISERABLE way to make a living unless you are actually interested in the material/work.

If you hate law school, then you are really going to hate practicing law. Don't even bother.

86 has some great points about actually practicing law. Or, as a later post revealed, for $160,000/yr you can buy an excellent proofreader.

I sometimes feel like the kid who wrote in this question. 1L at a T20, somewhere above the median but not sure exactly where until they give us hard numbers this spring.

Will have maybe 75k in loans after finishing school. No salivating desire for 160k biglaw, but the information we get down here at the bottom of the law school pyramid really sucks.

If I stay above the median and don't be a general dumbass, will I be able to make, say, 70-80k upon graduation? I'll certainly take as much as I can get and work as hard as possible, but running the numbers, we all need a certain salary to make it "worth it."

Duck Tales! A Woo Oo!

1Ls, midlaw doesnt exist for you...midlaw firms (between 30-100 attorneys depending on your area), are having it harder than the big firms. Have you all not seen the bimodial distribution either you make 0, 40 or 160...

Moreover, thes midlaw places are inundated with biglaw refugees who can put V100 resumes on midlaw websites. Sure they might interview at OCI or even listed on NALP, but look at their hiring practices and you'll see most of their attorneys are laterals or they hire a new attorney once every 2-3 years...
-----------------------
T50 top 1/3

There are a lot of 2L's right now that are jobless or looking to do some volunteer "legal" work so that their resume explains itself when they carpet bomb resumes as a 3L.

So don't use the freaking 1L job market as a measure of your employability.

That said, if the only reason you went to law school was to get BigLaw, that probably wasn't a very good idea. The odds of becoming rich through BigLaw are really low. Most people pile on a ton of debt, a lot of people don't last 3 years in BigLaw in good times (while living in some very expensive city), and almost no one makes equity partner. And that's for people who get BigLaw in the first place.

There are a lot of 2L's right now that are jobless or looking to do some volunteer "legal" work so that their resume explains itself when they carpet bomb resumes as a 3L.

So don't use the freaking 1L job market as a measure of your employability.

That said, if the only reason you went to law school was to get BigLaw, that probably wasn't a very good idea. The odds of becoming rich through BigLaw are really low. Most people pile on a ton of debt, a lot of people don't last 3 years in BigLaw in good times (while living in some very expensive city), and almost no one makes equity partner. And that's for people who get BigLaw in the first place.

Terrible advice.

There is not a single human being worthy of the title, in the entire fucking universe, who "loves the law." Not one.

There is not a single intelligent person, in the entire fucking universe, who can claim even remote interest in "the law." Not one.

Because passion for "the law" is thus impossible, your decision is simple: does the income outweigh the boredom? Your call. I'd get out if I was you.

I'm a 0L. Should I go? I got into a top 40 state school so it's relatively cheap. Also waiting to hear back from 2 T-14 schools where I have a shot. When I graduate in three years will I be competing with all of the people that didn't get jobs in the preceding years? Anyone want to take a crack at this one?

I'm a 0L. Should I go? I got into a top 40 state school so it's relatively cheap. Also waiting to hear back from 2 T-14 schools where I have a shot. When I graduate in three years will I be competing with all of the people that didn't get jobs in the preceding years? Anyone want to take a crack at this one?

I'm a 0L. Should I go? I got into a top 40 state school so it's relatively cheap. Also waiting to hear back from 2 T-14 schools where I have a shot. When I graduate in three years will I be competing with all of the people that didn't get jobs in the preceding years? Anyone want to take a crack at this one?

Marin, is your timing always this impeccable? RIP Natasha. Also, all you sanctimonious bitches complaining about Marin are most likely the ones posting or snickering at all the racist sexist crap that gets posted on here. Only I get to have it both ways.

second 85's comments, and i pay a lot more than a few hundred a month in student loans.

being a lawyer can be incredibly rewarding if you are at the right firm. the right firm does is not always the top firm, but it can be, just depends on your personality. also, just because you don't get the right job upon graduation doesn't mean you won't a few years down the road. also, don't forget that by and large lawyers are pretty far from the worst people to work with. unless your alternative is to own your own business, i'm not sure your options are all that great from the perspective of working with smart driven people. of course, if it's not for you, but just think about your options before quitting a top 20 school.

0L, don't do it. I'm graduating this May and am one of the lucky ones with a job at a firm that hasn't laid anyone off...yet. This is my second career. Had I known then what I know now, I never would have done it. I also spoke to two people last night at school who felt exactly the same. I wish I was back in my old job but there's no going back. Find something else to do with your life. This profession isn't worth the sacrifice.

Quit now for the following reasons:

1) If you are truly miserable in law school, practicing law won't be much better. BigLaw jobs pay well, but are miserable. Those jobs that are somewhat enjoyable pay marginally more than your local McDonald's.

2) The market for the next 5 years is going to be bad. All of May's graduates are going to be competing for scarce jobs with BigLaw casualties and others. The Class of 2010 will compete with those in the Class of 2009 and BigLaw refugees who still have yet to find jobs. It will take about three years of solid economic growth until the legal job market significantly improves--so we are talking 2012 at the very earliest, more realistically 2013 or 2014. And that assumes we have a good recovery.

Case in point--I graduated in the mid-90s. Even though the economy was strong, the pickings were slim. The recession of the early 90s forced some cutbacks in hiring and also forced many recent college grads into law school. There was a glut of law grads for years afterwards.

You've reached an all new low with that Natasha Richardson "joke." Sad thing: it's not even funny.

It's not impossible out there. Tough, yes -- but I'm a senior associate (=stale on the market, not laid off but suspect that will be) but I've had interviews at 6 different places in the last month and a half, including a few in-house. I'm probably going to get 1-2 offers at least. At almost all I'll have to take a 30-40% pay cut so no, they are not perfect and biglaw hiring is completely frozen. But there are jobs out there, especially for more junior people, I'm sure.

To the OL - I would go to the T1 in-state school. T14 is only good for biglaw. If you don't get it - which you might not if you are marginal at the T14 or (as is likely) the big firm model is entirely shot and not coming back, you just have a very expensive law degree.

If you had a shot at a T14, you should be able to scorch at the University of My Home State, graduate owing nothing, and graduate high enough in your class you have at least as good a shot if not moreso at a high starting salary then someone below median at a T14.

I would strongly discourage anyone from going to a T14 that they are a marginal admit at. You won't be able to make it up on hard work, so put that right out of your head. Those people with the 170 LSAT's really are that bright, for the most part.

Not cool, Marin.

Addendum to 114: This is where Top Law Schools is really smoking some dope. A law student is not doing himself/herself any favors by trying to squeeze into a school where he is massively outclassed on raw ability. "Reach" has its limits, and the prestige game is not a particulary smart one to play when the stakes are crushing nondischargable, uncollateralized debt.

Be honest with yourself about where you fit in. Law school is Darwinian and unsympathetic about it. All the BS about "I have really good softs" or "how is this essay" is not going to help you when you, like 1/3 of your class, do worse than 2/3's of your class.

Hey Marin,

Natasha is dead. I didn't mind the "joke" (you need to work on those) before, but I have now changed course. You now look like a huge asshole and a d-bag. Ask Elie for tips on coping with it.

Callous, unfunny and asshole comment about Richardson. Karma is out there

Law schools and higher education in general are overrated. Many are a scam, preying upon young people who are uninformed and overly optimistic. Law schools are indeed the next bubble to burst, if only prospective law students learn the truth. If you do not get into T14 or your state's top in-state public law school, DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL unless you're a rich kid whose parents are paying for it.

114 - STFU. I'm above the median now at a T-14 and my LSAT was well below the 25th percentile. What got me into the school was my GPA and Softs. I knew I was smarter than the kids who go here and that 1 test doesn't matter. Maybe you should let people "reach." It worked for me

0L -

Wherever you go, accept and defer for at least a year (maybe 2). Then maybe the economy will have improved when you are interviewing.

Go to the highest ranked school you get into - sort of. If you get into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and to a lesser degree NYU or Columbia, go there over cheap state school. But if you get a good deal at Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, Michigan, to a lesser degree UNC - strongly consider going there over Penn or Duke or maybe even Columbia/NYU, for example. (Berkeley maybe shouldn't grouped with those others as it is ranked higher than the other state schools.) But don't turn down HYS to go to East Idaho State on full scholarship.

"while the rest of us have to scavenger to find work." Stay in law so you can writer hem briefs.

"Those people with the 170 LSAT's really are that bright, for the most part." WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh man, at least some people still have a sense of humor.

120 is right, by and large. There are some smaller markets where you are much better off going to the big state U rather than whatever T14 you can grab, but for the most part, those are the "tiers" you should use in your evaluation. I went to HYS, paid full price, and feel like it was worth it in terms of the experience and the doors the degree opens. It won't guarantee you a sweet in-house/gov job after a few years in the biglaw mines, but it certainly helps get your foot in the door, both in terms of connections and as a signaling (both as to intelligence and the fact you'll be busting tail to pay back those loans). Good luck wherever you go, just make sure you have a gameplan going in.

Going to law school has nothing to do with "loving the law" (ex: finding law textbooks fascinating.) It has to do with whether or not you think you will like PRACTICING law and being a lawyer.

119 - Statistics say that you are either very lucky or talking BS. LSAT is an extremely strong corrolation to how well people do in law school. Bluntly, bottom 25% LSAT to Top 25% class rank is something like a 1/1000 proposition, if that.

I personally wouldn't bet $150,000 on outperforming an LSAT that barely got me in and finishing high enough at a reach school to actually get the big firm offer. This is simply not intelligent, just as doubling down on a hard 12 or 13 or splitting 10's my sometimes work in blackjack, but is also mathematically stupid in the extreme.

114/115 was right - this is different from undergrad. Most of the smarter people are also at least as highly motivated as you. Unless you are a secret law school prodigy that just couldn't do logic games (happens) you're not likely to surpass people who work just as hard as you do and are somewhat smarter than you. It also costs one hell of a lot more than undergrad.

With a couple non-grading exceptions, half of a given law school class is usually astonished to discover they really aren't smarter and better than everyone else at school. That's fine, you finally met your peer group. But below median means no megajob right out of school in a normal hiring climate. For all of the talk of "everyone out of UVA that wants NJ250 job gets one", the numbers simply don't support that. Not unless at least 40% of the class didn't want one. And that was in a good year.

T14 per se is not a golden ticket. Any school that grades and/or pre-screens for interviews requires you to do well. If you don't know which ones do and which ones do not, investigate. This is very important. You absolutely should calculate your financial risk for attending law school versus where you stack up versus the student body and your probability of finishing high enough to get the big $$$. This is unless money is a complete non-factor for you.

Lastly, regarding rankings outside the T14 - this is where making a bad, ranking-driven decision will kill you. There is no appreciable difference in national NJ250 placement between schools T15-40ish. At best, you are playing Top 25% against Top 15% in a normal hiring environment. Bluntly put, the prospect of getting to be 15 PEOPLE lower in your class and still make hiring criteria is not worth turning down in-state tuition or a scholorship to move up 5 slots in the "rankings" and stroke your ego.

Run don't walk.

While I generally enjoy your postings on ATL, the Richardson comment is way beyond the pale. You really need to get a grip and realize that not everything is appropriate fodder for your satirical commentary.