1

Supervising interns is more trouble than they are worth.

You know the economy is bad when even people willing to WORK FOR FREE are being rejected.

If you're going to kill yourself, first publicly air your firm's dirty laundry.

Then again, the demand for Thacher Profitt attorneys was never high in the first place.

6, don't be rude

An SNL and a Pulp Fiction reference in one post? QUINN is impressed, though that REMAINS to be seen.

hmmmm.... Looks like Jeremy ain't worth a Dyme in this economy.

Hey guys, future law student here....
All other things equal, paying my own way, do I go to a Tier 2 school at $35k a year or a Tier 4 school for $7k a year (large scholarship)?

Also, not going to law school or waiting to go is not an option.

Comments?
Thanks

10, i fucking hope you're joking. T3 and 4 law schools shouldn't even exist.

10, There is no real difference between Tier 2 and Tier 4. Big Law thinks they are all pieces of shit whether you went to Cardozo or CUNY.

Way better to pay 7K/year at CUNY, at least you won't be crushed with student loans for the next 30 years, which would give you give the option to work for government or a small firm.

As noted earlier, this is a GOLDEN AGE for pro bono recruitment.

Damaged goods are damaged, rightly or wrongly.

DC buses are TTT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krwalton/397756485/

haha

11, 10 here.
Not joking. I applied to a wide range of schools including a few T4s that I found geographically convenient. Due to the economy I'm thinking it would be wise to strongly conisder the discount. Besides, its all really the same learning experience anyway. I went to a fancy undergrad and regret throwing money away that I could have saved, going to state school.

4, It may finally hit associates that their salary was only a part of the costs associated with their employment. This is why associates get laid off while ATL commenters insist that 1st yrs are "profitable."

15, please shut up.

10, what do you plan to do with your JD from a tier 4 or even T2 school. Are you confident that you can be at the very top of your class and get a decent job at a firm? I've known plenty of people that go to such schools and their options are limited.

10, what do you plan to do with your JD from a tier 4 or even T2 school. Are you confident that you can be at the very top of your class and get a decent job at a firm? I've known plenty of people that go to such schools and their options are limited.

10--go where it's cheapest. Law school is a bad decision no matter which way you cut it. But it's worse when you have debt. It's like adding insult to injury. Live like a pauper... so you're 50K a year job feels like middle class. Are you an idiot? Just don't go! Be a bank teller and you'll make more money... legal world has been shot to shit since 1999.

10, what do you plan to do with your JD from a tier 4 or even T2 school. Are you confident that you can be at the very top of your class and get a decent job at a firm? I've known plenty of people that go to such schools and their options are limited.

10, what do you plan to do with your JD from a tier 4 or even T2 school. Are you confident that you can be at the very top of your class and get a decent job at a firm? I've known plenty of people that go to such schools and their options are limited.

10, what do you plan to do with your JD from a tier 4 or even T2 school. Are you confident that you can be at the very top of your class and get a decent job at a firm? I've known plenty of people that go to such schools and their options are limited.

10--go where it's cheapest. Law school is a bad decision no matter which way you cut it. But it's worse when you have debt. It's like adding insult to injury. Live like a pauper... so you're 50K a year job feels like middle class. Are you an idiot? Just don't go! Be a bank teller and you'll make more money... legal world has been shot to shit since 1999.

i'm not too worried. we've had a dow rally (only lost 7 today) and two days without public layoffs. can someone say 'models and bottles'?

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

10, Go to the T4 and work your ass off. If you can finish in the Top 5%, transfer to a T10 school and it will get you a BigLaw job. If you can't finish in the Top 5%, you would not have done well enough at a T2 to get a decent job anyway. So, then grab a crappy government job or very small law job.

Bottom line is that you are taking the smallest risk with the greatest possible return by going to at T4 in your position.

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18, The plan would be to try to get into BigLaw someday..

26, point well taken

Thanks,
-10

I'm the director of a nonprofit organization. I can ALWAYS find work for competent, smart volunteers who are serious about wanting to help. There are endless opportunities out there for those who come with their own stipends. You just need to find the employers who are willing to think outside the box a little to put new people to work. And it's not true that organizations can't find a good use for short-term employees. Many types of lawsuits and other public interest work can be started and finished within six months or a year.

Someone should get to work bringing employment discrimination law suits against the biglaw firms.

10, I recommend a T4 for 7K over a T2 for 35K for the essentially the same reasons as 12.

If Biglaw is your goal, you're likely going to have to finish at the top of your class and be on law review regardless if you're at a T2 or T4 (top 10% from a T4, perhaps top 15% from a T2, emphasis on perhaps). Given the significant increase in cost between the two, I would likely take the T4.

My recommendation would change if the choice was between a school in the top 35 or so, but otherwise the practical difference on your future employment prospects is very limited.

And if you end up at a small firm (which, contrary to most posters on here, is not such a bad thing -- I left Biglaw for small law) you're much better off with roughly 20K in debt compared to roughly 100K. I can tell you that a lot of my friends, three years out, would like to transition into a small or midsize firm but can't take the cut in pay because of loans.

28, stfu. people should be able to express the way layoffs are affecting them.

28's happy little fantasy world has been shattered by REALITY.

Before going to ANY school - T1, T4 or in between, do some real research and consider the real value of the degree (including intrinsic).

How much will that degree increase your earning capacity or provide other fulfillment. Schools like Touro should go out of business because the value of a degree from there is always negative. If you took the three years you spent there and continued working rather than accrued debt and then consider what you'll be earning your first several years out of school, you'll most likely find yourself on the downside of this equation.

28 = BIGLAW partner trying to sweep layoffs under the rug.

I volunteered full-time for a non-profit for 7 months after my 2002 lay-off (the tail end of my 18 months of unemployment), and it was darn hard to get, even after I'd spent years performing heavy amounts of pro bono work (including most of my vacation time) and looking for a non-profit job while I was still employed.

Sure, lots of attorneys think they are God’s gift to the public service sector, but I found that most non-profits and NGOs have just a teeny weeny bit of an attitude themselves. Generally speaking, they are not interested in “for profit people” who weren't true believers from the get go, except perhaps to the extent those people have very rich spouses or families who can not only pay their freight but also help raise money for them.

Personally, I don’t think $25K is a realistic amount for a grownup to try to live on in New York City, but that’s what a lot of non-profits pay, and they sneer at “greedy” folks who actually need to live on their salaries.

10/29. 26, here. I did the same thing by the way -- your decision is identical the one I had to make. T4s are chalked full of idiots and if you work your ass off, you can transfer. I saw it as a win/win situation. I tested my capability to succeed in law school by going to a respectable T4 for next to nothing rather than going to a T2 at full cost. Luckily, I did well and was able to get the hell out. I do wonder if I would have done so well class rank wise my first year if I had gone to the T2. If I hadn't done as well and was unable to transfer, my life would be dramatically different. In the end, I passed up BigLaw opportunities in the end to work at a large regional firm in a smaller city with market rate pay.

You may want to check the fine print of the scholarship. For many T4 scholarships to continue into your second and third years, you must finish in the Top 20% of your 1L class.

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In San Francisco the Bar Association offers free training in specific areas of practice that counts towards MCLE, so long as the attorneys promise to handle a certain number of clients. The areas range from limited scope rep in an eviction case to full blown pro-bono representation of a defendant in any kind of tort. No need to get hired or anything, you just sign up and put your name on a list, and they give you clients. I'm sure other bar associations in big cities offer something similar.

39, i'd kill for some thacher/sonnenschein love right now

eww pro bono. enjoy defending crackheads!

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How about Baylor on a full tuition scholarship vs. Emory with 78K scholarship (26/year)?

Hey 10/29 - if you go to the lower ranked school and come out with 20K in debt, you won't have any need to work in big law. i passed up big scholarship offers to go to a fancy top law school, worked big law for a year and a half and then got laid off - while i still had a shit ton of debt. now making a lot less money, but still paying lots to my loans. yuck!

37 - AMEN

Ok, so dumb little summer associate (me) goes to do some pro bono work a few summers back. I'm not arrogant, not late, not an asshole, and I don't need a babysitter. The resentment I felt from the inhouse lawyers was unbelievable. The self-righteousness that sometimes comes with doing "good" work is almost as bad as the arrogance that sometimes comes with making piles of money. I'm not sure which is worse.

45--Are you serious? Go to Emory. That is not even a decision.

48- thanks for the feedback. That has been my plan, but all this talk about debt was making me at least give it a second thought.

-45

Hey 10 - I went to T4 and got a job in V100 firm...closer to the bottom - I have zero debt and was still able to make great money (not $160K b/c not NY, but starting attorneys at my firm make $130K).

However, I was top 5% of my class...a few people outside the top 5% got jobs in big firms, but they either won some trial advocacy awards or had a connection. So it is a risk going to a T4 school, but it is a HUGE payoff if you make it.

I hope to God I don't get laid off...but if I do, at least I have no debt left and some solid experience...plus, once you're at a firm, nobody cares where you went to school - assignments are given to people who work hard, and respect their finished product.

However, I would make not going to law school a choice, haha. In this market, coming out of a T4 will be TOUGH - when I came out, jobs were abundant...they aren't right now, so keep that in mind. Best of luck.

45-You are not in the position of the previous post choosing between a T4 and a T2. Emory with a 26k scholarship is a very good deal.

PSYCHIC REWARDS?!?!?!?!?!

Sign me up!

45 - I just saw your post and Emory is the clear choice...there is no risk there, and grades are irrelevant (at least for most firms). However, Baylor requires a lot of pressure to do well if you want a high grossing job.

I must say though, I'd recommend looking outside the law for a job. The legal market is getting more flooded by the day - I mean read this post...Ivy league grads w/ solid experience have trouble working for free, haha. Look elsewhere, unless you LOVE the law.

Jesus, do not go to a school that isn't at least in the top 25 (and you really ought to be getting a full ride to go to the bottom half of those schools).

Even if you get a free ride at a T2/3/4 school, you're still paying your living expenses and earning no income those three years. And you will not get a decent job upon graduation. In the boom years, you could score a job if you graduated in the top 5% of your class. That's when demand outstripped supply. I don't know why 10 would say that "not going at all" isn't an option. It's clearly the best option for your bank account.

Are you joking, 53? Of course there is risk going to Emory. It's a mediocre school at best. In the current economy there is risk going anywhere not top 5. Seriously.

55 - you're wrong. You leave Emory, you will be getting a job. It is a top 25 law school, and the top school in its region. Choosing between Emory and Baylor, this person is from the south. A degree from Emory is not that far off from a Columbia degree as far as southern employers are concerned. If they leave Emory, they will be employed at a solid job. No doubt about it, and believe it or not, employers will actually hire people outside of 5 school radius, haha - the economy is bad, but get real.

Emory grades are not "irrelevant" for most firms. Maybe if you're in Atlanta. There's no way in hell my V10 firm would hire someone not in the top 10% of his/her Emory class and on law review. Give me a break. Firms that could fill their full class with HLS grads if they wanted to are not going to give those positions to people who graduated in the middle of the pack at Emory instead.

10 is an idiot. Why anyone would go to law school these days is beyond me. Go learn a real trade, like blood diamond-mining or human trafficking.

54--Though his stated goal of getting a job in BigLaw is unlikely, he will most probably be able to get a government job with a T4 degree. I don't think the advice of "do not go to a law school that isn't at least in the top 25" is sound.

If he rocks the T4 his 1L year, he could transfer to a number of T14 schools and his BigLaw chances skyrocket. If he doesn't rock it, he graduates nearly debt free with a mediocre government job. Either way, not bad compared to the crappy sales job he is probably do right now.

A bunch of you out of work folks should band together and start a not-for-profit legal aid fund. Just pick a cause and go for it.

Thanks for all feedback. I'm actually not from the south. I'm just apparently not good enough to get similar offers from schools outside of the south. As long as future job prospects are good I don't really care where they are. And 57, I have reconciled myself to the fact that I probably won't be working at a V10.

-45

56, the comment was that just getting into Emory was a ticket to a job. Like you could then proceed to slack off and finish in the bottom half of your class (or indeed, dead last) and step into a $160k job (which I didn't think even existed in the Atlanta market). I don't work in the South, so maybe that's true. If those employers really think Emory is equivalent to Columbia, they're fucking idiots. I can assure you that no firm outside the south shares that view. Middling grades from Emory will not get you a biglaw job outside the south. I'm with 57 on this.

-55

The advice that people should not go to any school that is not in the Top 25 is crap….Take the biggest scholarship that you can get at a decent school. I am graduating from a T2 school in May. I could have gone to higher ranked schools but could not fathom having that much debt. I worked my ass off and I will be graduating summa. I have zero debt and my firm just sent me my bonus for the fall and wanted to confirm that I am starting in September.

I'm much happier with $100k of debt and an HLS degree than I would have been with no debt and, e.g., a UVA degree. Obviously many people feel the same way, since every single student at HLS could have gone elsewhere for free -- and many could have gone to "T14" schools for free.

If you consider those three years as an educational experience that's enriching and valuable in and of itself, go to the best school you can get into. If you consider law school merely the price of admission to a $160k doc review job -- like a longer term barbri class -- taking the scholarship is the right move.

Sorry, one last nit, 56. You must be defining Emory's "region" very narrowly to identify it as the best school there. UVA and even Duke are clearly better schools.

How about Michigan with a full+ scholarship vs. Chicago with 64K?

Hey, this is 56 - I am in the South, and the top schools in my region are Vanderbilt and Emory. The problem with Duke and UVA is that the students don't stay in the South. I'm sure the view in NYC is that Emory is a good school, but not a top school. That is understandable, but it is common that an Emory degree will take you just about anywhere you want to go in the South. If you a jerk, it won't matter where you went to law school. But if you go to Emory, and you are a decent student who is not a jerk, you'll be able to get a job.

And 62, you're right. The top jobs in Atlanta, for instance, are less than $160K; they are much closer to $130ish give or take, and that is still good money.

For those people who went to Harvard - you did not go there for the education. You could get an equivalent education elsewhere. You went to Harvard because you could, and there is nothing wrong with that. But employers will hire non-Harvard attorneys...I'm sure some of these lesser-people will be your bosses, haha.

I'm much happier with $100k of debt and a YLS degree than I would have been with no debt and, e.g., a HLS degree. Obviously many people feel the same way, since every single student at YLS could have gone elsewhere for free -- and many could have gone to "T14" schools for free.

If you consider those three years as an educational experience that's enriching and valuable in and of itself, go to the best school you can get into. If you consider law school merely the price of admission to a $160k doc review job -- like a longer term barbri class -- taking the scholarship is the right move.

-PS- 64, you're an idiot.

I'll let you all in on a little secret. The reason you pay big $$$ for trinity schools is that you get a special phone number upon graduation. If you are every in a jam you call the number and black-ops will extricate you, pronto. It also increases your chances of doing other stuff, like running for government office, becoming a law professor, clerking for prestigious judges, impressing chicks, etc. I know this because a little birdie told me so.

68 = EPIC FAIL. Pointless comparison, and besides, HLS does not give those kinds of scholarships.

I believe 68 was mocking 64, but I suppose everyone can draw their own conclusions. The fact is that everyone knows that no law school provides an "educational experience that's enriching and valuable in and of itself," especially not Harvard or Yale.

47--- "The resentment I felt from the inhouse lawyers was unbelievable. The self-righteousness that sometimes comes with doing "good" work is almost as bad as the arrogance that sometimes comes with making piles of money. I'm not sure which is worse"

Kind of reminds me of the arrogance of T14 grads to grads from lower ranked schools. See 64 above. I think I am going to puke.

Thank you 72. I also puked shortly after reading 64

73--You are most welcome.

47 - Agreed. Beggars shouldn't be choosers. Any pro bono client that tries to tell the attorney a fucking thing should immediately be cut off from service, regardless of how the case is progressing.

my god 64. and i use to wonder why people tend to think HLS grads are arrogant (and often idiotic) jerks.

from quickly scanning the comments, the question was whether to go emory or baylor for less money b/c of a scholarship -- it was not whether to go to HLS for 100K or UVA for free.

too bad your HLS education didn't teach you how to tailor your answer to the question asked...i would ask for my money back.

37 and 47

I work for a non-profit (not law related). There may be some of the arrogance you mentioned. But there may also be the fact your experience and skills dont add real value to the non-profit. Not many BIGLAW associates are trained to work on domestic violence cases, labor disputes, landlord-tenant issues, etc.

apparently a lot of Emory 2Ls are unemployed...T25 is not a magic ticket people even for shitlaw

Hey all you out of work attorneys: Become a teacher in underserved schools! Teach for America. NY Teaching Fellows. LA Teaching Fellows. Or just apply directly to a district. There's all kinds of programs out there, and they always need math, science, and special ed teachers. Some districts even pay for you to get your credential. It's a stable (albeit much smaller) paycheck and good benefits for you and your family. And you'll finally get to go home at the end of the day feeling good about yourself.
**Crossing my fingers that this market correction will finally get qualified teachers back in the classroom.**

76, I believe he used what one might call an analogy:
Baylor:Emory::UVa:HLS.

And the conclusion was that the original poster should choose Emory, just like how he chose HLS.

You should study up on analogies and how they're not required to be the actual answer to the question asked. It will help you on the LSAT.

71 clearly did not attend HLS or YLS. I'm an HLS grad, not 64. While 64's tone (and UVA comment) is slightly obnoxious, I agree that the educational experience is, in fact, more "enriching" than at most other schools (YLS excepted for sure). I have plenty of friends who went to other "T14" schools and got a lot more black letter law out of it. HLS classes were, by and large, closer to grad school classes (rather than trade school). Big on theory. To me, learning black letter law that you can easily pick up in a month of studying for the bar is not worth tuition or even 3 years of your life with tuition comped.

I was working as a paralegal when I applied to law school. I was deciding between HLS and NYU (at 50% off). Every single partner who weighed in on it told me I should go to HLS. One said I'd be "an idiot" to take the money and go to NYU. I'm pretty sure I would have the exact same job I have now had I chosen otherwise, but I'd make the same choice if I had it again today. I really enjoyed law school as an intellectual experience. But I understand that many see it as a necessary but unpleasant chore.

79, these poor fools won't work for anything less than $100k a year.

After all, they went into $150k of debt expecting a $125k-$160k salary so that is what they DESERVE.

My legal services office in NYC would love to take in a deferred associate as free labor. How can we get one?

81 - uh huh, I'm sure your HLS experience was truly unique. I'm sure other schools also didn't teach theory and have "discussions" about policy, rather than simply going on about the black letter law.

Are you an idiot? Do you really think nonHLS schools go on on the black letter law that BARBRI replicates? You are just as despicable as 64.

This Dyme guy sounds like a real DOUCHE going for the flavor du jure. MICROFINANCE? Good luck competing with most MPP/MPA/and now a handful of MBAs with your 4th year doc review cred.

du jour that is.

-85

79, who the hell are you and why are you on a comment board for a legal gossip blog?

77,

Indeed I have no experience in domestic violence cases, labor disputes, landlord-tenant issues, etc. Why should I? My field is international democratization (or was, I stopped looking for an NGO job and have not done any international projects for several years now).

And what I said completely stands. I have a friend, another American lawyer, who has worked on contract gigs abroad for the UN, USAID and NGOs steadily for some 10 years. He hasn’t been able to find a permanent job back in the U.S., either.

But in my experience, it is no different for the more local practice areas you mention. It is very, very difficult to transition from for-profit to non-profit unless you have personal connections or independent wealth. It’s a very exclusionary field, and experience is irrelevant.

--37

79 teaching is a nasty, thankless profession

cum do teach for america everyone!!

Teach For America Chews Up, Spits Out Another Ethnic-Studies MajorFebruary 16, 2005 | Issue 41•07
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02.22.07
NEW YORK—Teach For America, a national program that recruits recent college graduates to teach in low-income rural and urban communities, has devoured another ethnic-studies major, 24-year-old Andy Cuellen reported Tuesday.

Enlarge Image
Cuellen stands in front of the elementary school where he used to teach.
"Look, the world is a miserable place," said Cuellen, a Dartmouth graduate who quit the TFA program Monday morning. "All people—even children—are just nasty animals trying to secure their share of the food supply. I don't care how poor or how rich you are, that's just a fact. I'm sorry, but I have better things to do than zoo-keep for peanuts."
Just one of the 12,000 young people TFA has burned through since 1990, Cuellen was given five weeks of training the summer before he took over a classroom at P.S. 83 in the South Bronx last September.
"I walked into that school actually thinking I could make a difference," said Cuellen, who taught an overflowing class of disadvantaged 8-year-olds. "It was trial by fire. But after five months spent in a stuffy, dark room where the chalkboard fell off the wall every two days, corralling screaming kids into broken desks, I'm burnt to a crisp."
Cuellen said his TFA experience "taught him a lot about hopelessness."
"The cities are fucked. The suburbs are fucked. The whole country is fucked," Cuellen said. "And there's not a goddamned thing you or anyone can do about it. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. Or trying to get you to teach kids math."
According to Dartmouth literature, as a member of the ethnic-studies department, Cuellen learned "to empower students of color to move beyond being objects of study toward being subjects of their own social realities, with voices of their own."
Teach For America executive director Theo Anderson called ethnic-studies departments "a prime source of fodder."
"Oh, I'd say we burn through a hundred or so ethnic-studies majors each year," said Anderson, pointing to a series of charts showing the college-major breakdown of TFA corps members. "They tend to last a little longer than women's studies majors and art-therapy students, but Cuellen got mashed to a pulp pretty quickly. It usually takes ethnic-studies majors another year to realize that they're wasting their precious youth on a Sisyphean endeavor."
Continued Anderson: "Of course, we don't worry about it too much. Every year, there's a fresh crop to throw in the grinder. As we speak, scores of apple-cheeked students are hearing about TFA for the first time."
According to Anderson, a small portion of these students will lose interest after hearing horror stories from program alumni.
"But the majority of them will march on like cattle to the slaughter, thinking that pure determination and hope can change young lives," Anderson said. "I can hear their footsteps now, marching toward our offices like lemmings to a cliff. And believe me, we're ready for 'em."
Cuellen said he applied to TFA in search of a "character-building experience."
"I knew that teaching in a severely under-funded inner-city school would be challenging, but I wanted to get out into the real world," Cuellen said. "Well, breaking up fistfights between 8-year-olds all day long, I got a real ugly view of reality. Do you want to know reality? Look at a dog lying dead in the gutter. That's reality."
Although Cuellen quit the program early, his mother said he was with TFA long enough for it "to crack open his bones and suck out the marrow inside."
"Andy is a ghost," Beverly Cuellen said. "Those [TFA] people beat the idealism out of him, then they stomped on him while he lay there gasping for air."
TFA regional coordinator Sandra Richman said it is common to blame the TFA employees for the organization's high plow-through rate.
"Should I have said something to wake those kids up sooner?" Richman said, crushing out her seventh cigarette. "Probably. But listen, no one can tell you that you can't make a difference. It's something you have to figure out for yourself."
"You can only do so much," Richman added. "After a couple years of trying to teach our applicants about how difficult and depressing their lives will inevitably be—no matter what they choose to do for money—I just got burnt out. In the end, you've gotta resign yourself to failure and move on with your life."

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30911

thanks for your concern 80 (#76 here) regarding my analogy skills. although i have already taken the lsat and did quite well thanks. for that matter, i also already graduated from law school, where i also did quite well.

however, even assuming 64 was making an analogy as opposed to a self grandiose statement (a generous assumption), it was a pretty shitty one based on us news 2009 rankings (emory (22)/baylor (55) compared to harvard (2)/uva (9)).

if that is 64's idea of a strong analogy, i hope i run into him in a courtroom sometime soon. my life will be a lot easier.

yes, cum teach!!

Inner-City Teacher Inspires Students To Stab HimJanuary 26, 2007 | Issue 43•04
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05.26.99

LOS ANGELES—23-year-old Teach For America participant Jonathan Fitzsimmons remains in critical condition today at Cedars–Sinai Medical Center after he inspired some of the most troubled, hard-to-reach students in his 11th-grade English class to stab him Monday. "Before Mr. Fitzsimmons came along, nobody had been dedicated and hardworking enough to show us that we had the power to make a difference," said student and stabbing participant Gabriel Salazar, who added that Fitzsimmons' innovative teaching games and insistence his students do their homework were just two reasons the class sacrificed their free time after school to inflict nearly 20 wounds to his arms, chest, and side. "He motivated us to show him—the world, even—what we were capable of." According to a statement released by Fitzsimmons' parents, the "impact these kids had on our son's life will never be forgotten."

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/inner_city_teacher_inspires

84, HLS has a 3L "transfer" program with Boalt. The universal experience of HLS students who spend their 3L year at Boalt is that they are only required to work half as hard, get no grade worse than "H," and find the classes (and class discussions) far less stimulating.

Another admittedly totally anecdotal example: the class I took with a star visiting professor from UCLA was easily the most dumbed-down class I took at law school. The impression everyone in the class got was that it was par for the course at UCLA (where this prof got consistently glowing student reviews).

I don't know why it's so shocking to you that a school that (a) hires away the star professors from every other school and (b) rejects or would reject the great majority of students from nearly every other law school might (c) be home to a more high-level or intellectually stimulating classroom experience. It sounds more like you're being defensive because you couldn't get in.

-not 81 or 64

*opens fire on 93*

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Why does everything eventually have to turn in to a debate about HLS?

Let's just all admit it. HLS is a great law school and most everyone would go if admitted. It doesn't mean that 50% of the students there are not douchebags or that you can't be a better lawyer than a HLS grad.

45, go to Baylor if you want to be a trial lawyer. Otherwise, go to Emory.

Harvard is a place for 'tards who couldn't get Yale.

-Yale Biglaw Parnter

I dunno, 79. I know a recenlty laid-off teacher, and it seems like my mom spent her entire teaching career getting herself qualified in different subjects to avoid various lay offs. (She succeeded, but only at the expense of several junior colleagues. Still, today she has a fabulous pension that teachers just starting out now, not to mention the rest of us, can only dream of.)

93, LOL, the professor dumbed it down for you twits

92 - did you really just cite to The Onion?

79--I don't know about the rest of the country but here in Los Angeles they are laying off teachers to the tune of 8,000 or so. Really, healthcare is the way to go--we are never going to run out of sick people

101, olds will stop paying their bills though, or we'll stop paying for them. the burden is getting to be too much.

hey 93 - you sound pretty offensive about Harvard being the best - how is knowing that you paid $100K to get the same education you could have gotten for free (with experience of law reviews or other student orgs) - and to top it off, you'd have the exact same job. Nobody with a brain an argue that Harvard is a great school - but nobody with a brain can argue that it is the only school of its kind. So I hope you found HLS really stimulating...say $100K worth of stimulation, haha. Don't let that bitterness get the best of you, and cause you to be so offensive to show it is the best.

Re: Emory:

I want to a top 5 school. I'm from the South.

The idea that you merely have to go to a top 10 school and you'll be guaranteed a job is bull (if I had to put figures on it--when I graduated a few years ago, I'd say if you were in the bottom 10% at Columbia or NYU, bottom 25% at a place like Michigan or bottom third at Georgetown or UT, you were going to have a problem).

That was in a decent economy.

The idea can go to Emory right now and be guaranteed a job is just f-ing ridiculous. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be mean, but someone's future is at play and the guy asking about all this is about to make a decision that will affect the rest of his life. Emory is not Columbia in the South. I mean this as no offense to Emory, but it just isn't. The idea that you can go right now and be guaranteed a job is just flat out idiotic and I have a very hard time believing the person posting it doesn't also know it's complete bull***t.

Honestly, if someone was posting right now that you're guaranteed a job at Georgetown and that it was the equivalent of Columbia in D.C., I would assume that person was from the Georgetown admissions office. The same goes double for Emory.

A few things:

1. Everybody enters law school aiming to be at the top of his class. There's an element of randomness in grading you can't truly appreciate until you've entered law school and if you go to a remotely decent school, the good majority of people will be hard-working as well. Don't enter law school assuming you're just going to bust a** and wind up in the top 10%.

2. I fully appreciate #10 feeling that going to a fancy undergrad was a waste, but law is arguably the most school-snobbish there is. Prestige is going to be more of a factor here in your job prospects and future career than it did in undergrad. I'm not justifying it. I'm not saying it's a good thing--but it is there and should be considered.

3. Again, I hate to be a dick, but, your future is at stake and given that the economy is what it is, seriously just consider (a little more) the "delaying law school" option.

91, do tell me, what should he have used instead of UVa in the analogy?

You do realize that the ordinal ranking by USNews does not tell you anything about the relative gaps between the ranked schools, right?

Comment removed by moderator.

Emory is outside the T14 and pre-screens OCI. Grades matter. Rank matters. Law Review matters.

Sure it might be big shit in the establishment South - although probably no different than Georgia/Alabama etc. degress for the respective states, but it means nothing outside of the South.

If you aren't from the region and do not want to practice there, Emory is not a good bet for BigLaw, and doesn't place materially different from any school down through 35 or so.

The same is true for out-of-state students at the Big 10 schools. Name is solid gold in the state, but they are not going to get you BigLaw unless you are top third or better most years, and something like Top 15% in shitty years like this. People hate on Iowa the most for this (no local market as backup) but you run into plenty of people who hate the Twin Cities/Milwaukee/Illionis/Ohio and think they'll die and be eaten by snow cows if they don't get back to the Coasts.

14, thank you for making me laugh uncontrollably.

Hey 104 - you guys have a skewed view of hiring (or maybe you don't and I do, who knows). But saying Georgetown is not in the same field as Columbia? You're crazy...when you look at every year's grads, which is probably close to 40,000 people, georgetown (and emory's) are definately in the top 10-15% of those candidates. If they don't get jobs, it is not the school's fault, it is their own.

Sure, Emory is not top 5 - neither is GTown...nobody says they are. But they are top-notch schools, especially in their area, and if you are choosing a law school, Emory or Georgetown or Vanderbilt or BC or any of those schools is still an EXCELLENT choice. It is like saying Major League Baseball players suck because they aren't All-Stars...look at every baseball player in the game, and those in the majors are damn good.

"Hey 104 - you guys have a skewed view of hiring (or maybe you don't and I do, who knows). But saying Georgetown is not in the same field as Columbia?"

109 - Absolutely, I definitely would say that and I doubt even many people at Georgetown would dispute it. Again, no offense to Georgetown, but it just is.

Big Law firms are going to take a look at you further down in your class rank at Columbia than they will at Georgetown and you're going to be more likely to graduate with a job further down in your class ranking at Columbia than at Georgetown.

Those two facts just aren't arguable for anyone who has gone through the recruiting process or hired people after joining a firm.

"Sure, Emory is not top 5 - neither is GTown...nobody says they are"

Yeah, one did- the guy above posted that Emory was Columbia in the South. I'm sorry, I know that I'm being a dick, but this is just idiotic. Even all this is beside the point, though, because the key thing we're disputing is whether you can go to these schools and be guaranteed a job. That isn't true at place like UVA. It sure as hell isn't true at Emory. It's not "bad personality" or "the occasional exception" not true--it's just flat out blatantly false and I have a hard time believing anybody saying this to potential admits doesn't know they're lying.

Public interest work? Yeah right.
I would rather be a drug dealer.

PI is for spoiled rich kids and people with no hope of ever getting a job as a lawyer.

V10 2L stud here, made in the shade with some fly gators on.

I'm sure HLS is an amazing experience, but the "experience" isn't why it's worth the extra money. If you want a great three years of experience, go backpack around Europe, go trecking in Nepal, get a Master's at Oxford, live in Thailand for 6 months, work on a fishing boat etc. You can fund a lot of amazing experiences over 3 years for $150K. Most will be better experiences than law school.

The reason a Harvard degree is worth the money is (a) that your intelligence will always be presumed by anyone you work for or against, (b) you'll have access to an amazing alumni network (even if it's just the friends you make in school, in 12 years they'll be in positions of power at firms, corporations and in the government) and (c) an HLS degree can open doors that lesser degrees can't.

In light of all the Harvard Law worship in this thread, it is funny that Elie Mystal - an HLS grad - "can't get no respect" from the commenters.

111,

I'm neither a spoiled rich kid nor someone who has had difficulty obtaining work as lawyer, unless trying murder cases before a jury then doing appellate litigation doesn't meet your definition of "lawyer."

Public Interest Guy

38-

It's not "chalked full." It's "chock full." As in "chock full o' nuts."

Glad that the Tier 4 school worked out for you, though.

to 105
"Posted by guest | Permalink Monday, March 16, 2009 10:51 PM

91, do tell me, what should he have used instead of UVa in the analogy?

You do realize that the ordinal ranking by USNews does not tell you anything about the relative gaps between the ranked schools, right?"

What kind of a tool says "do tell me"? The sentence works fine with the "do", you f'ing HLS tool! Only a pretentious HLS grad would write like that. You probably went to a crappy undergrad and make up for it by telling everyone, "you do know, i go to Harvard." U of Chicago law is by far more intellectually rigorous than HLS, by the way,

to 105
"Posted by guest | Permalink Monday, March 16, 2009 10:51 PM

91, do tell me, what should he have used instead of UVa in the analogy?

You do realize that the ordinal ranking by USNews does not tell you anything about the relative gaps between the ranked schools, right?"

What kind of a tool says "do tell me"? The sentence works fine withOUT the "do", you f'ing HLS tool! Only a pretentious HLS grad would write like that. You probably went to a crappy undergrad and make up for it by telling everyone, "you do know, i go to Harvard." U of Chicago law is by far more intellectually rigorous than HLS, by the way,

115 - That does not meet my definition of a "job as a lawyer."

111

What's better, YLS with no scholarship or Touro with a full scholarship?

unclear to me why we are equating g-town and emory-- b/c they are not the same re: qualifications, students, teachers, or anything, and D.C. is a national market, so the columbia in D.C. is columbia. no one is making any sense.

117/118, way to not respond to the actual question. I'm sure you're real popular at parties when you criticize an extra word in idiomatic phrases.

I'm also not sure why you brought up U of Chicago law all of a sudden. UVa stands for University of Virginia, not University of Chicago, just so you know.

P.S. A sentence ends in a period, not a comma.

hahahaha U of Chicago. That's that neocon midwestern school where the average LSAT and undergrad GPAs of admits are significantly lower (and on a 10-year falling streak) than all of its supposed "peer" schools, right? The one that only places well for clerkships because its students are willing to clerk in the midwest where YLS/HLS/SLS/CLS etc. students are unwilling to apply? But you're right, they have a couple amateur economists on their teaching staff, so they must be "far more intellectually rigorous" than a school that can and does cherrypick its admitted students and professors at will. U of Chicago is washed up.

119,

I'll take the bait. What is your definition of "job as a lawyer"?

115

115, it involves a minimum of 1500 hours/year of pure doc review. Anything less lacks the prestige attendant to a true job as a lawyer.

-119

103, you are misusing the word "offensive." It's only one (actually, you misuse it twice) of the abuses of the English language that appears in your (completely nonresponsive) post. You're making my case for me.

-93

31 your exactly right. It is absolute crap what tey can do

your and you're- fifth grade

For those of you wondering, go to the cheaper school where you are likely to be the bigger fish in the smaller pond. Sure, you won't be able to make unbelievably funny posts about how great you are for going to HLS, but you will still have a chance at a good job. Big law isn't the end of the world, unless you have a complex about the type of law you practice. It is actually possible to make money elsewhere, just be good at what you do and become an expert in something, anything.

I went to a *gasp* T3 school, worked for a GC of a fortune 500 for one summer, worked at a big law firm for another summer and in the end chose to leave for a smaller firm. Now, I have been able to somehow live with the notion that Microsoft isn't knocking down my door for business, but the funny thing is, I still have a job. I have no worries whatsoever about losing my job. I do pro-bono work because I feel like it, not because I am trying to impress daddy with my big job, got fired, and now have to do it.

The point is regardless of where you go, law school and your career, will be what you make of it. The fact that some of you are smart enough to ask the questions you are asking makes me think you will be able to survive without a big law job. I was fortunate because mommy and daddy paid for my education, but the ability to choose my career path without the debt gun pressed against my temple was an amazing asset when choosing a job. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that if you go to HLS you don't need to work hard to be a good attorney and if you go to a T2/3/4 it is impossible to be a good attorney. After three years of hard work, employers won't care where you went, but what you bring in.

Hope I helped.

129, no employer expects a 4th year associate to have "brought in" anything.

I also think your experience entering a job market in the midst of a 20 year economic bubble is fairly irrelevant to the reasonable expectations of someone applying to law school against a backdrop of mass layoffs. And canceled summer programs. Going to a non-T1 school nearly guarantees that you will not get a biglaw job. And as someone else pointed out, even if you're getting a full ride, you are paying living expenses and not collecting a paycheck (and seniority) for three years. There are tons of jobs that pay $70k or $80k that require no more than an undergraduate degree. You'd obviously be much better off financially working one of those jobs for 3 years rather than going to a shitty law school for 3 years that will land you at best a different $70 to 80k job.

Who the fuck goes to law school because it is "intellectually stimulating"? You go to law school because doing so lets you bypass the barriers to entry into a world of lucractive employment opportunities.

-130, you caught me, I'll go with capable of bringing in.

131 speaks the truth.

Douchebags, Princeton Law School is #1

Public interest is an euphemism for socialism.

I'd rather shit in my hand and eat it than serve the public interest.

I'm with 135.

131/133 - you guys are idiots. If you went to an Ivy undergrad there was no barrier to entry to far more lucrative employment opportunities than those offered by the law to begin with. This is not the industry to go into if money is the main object. Of my closest friends from undergrad (class of 2000), half went to law school and half went into finance. Guess who has made more money in the last 8 years and who will continue to make more money every year. Hint: it's not those of us who paid $150k for an extra 3 years of school. (One friend made $11M at Goldman while I was making $140k or whatever it was firms were paying second years at the time). So yeah, I went to law school precisely because I thought it would be intellectually stimulating. I didn't feel that way about finance. But I wanted to be a little more practical than getting a PhD. It's a middle ground. If you're doing it as a get-rich-quick scheme, you picked wrong and you're an idiot.

And socialism is a euphemism for communism.

"131/133 - you guys are idiots. If you went to an Ivy undergrad . . ."

-

I'm willing to bet this assumption is somewhat faulty.

I'm not going to say transitioning from Big Law into finance is the norm, but I would argue it's at least as common as people making $11 million eight years out of an Ivy undergrad.

How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?

I went to Columbia undergrad. I also had a large number of friends who went into finance and now all make more money than me. $11M in a year is certainly nonstandard and I don't have any friends who have ever made anywhere near that much. But *every single one* of those friends is making at least 50% more than I currently make as a 5th year associate ($230k or 250 or whatever it is -- I'm at a firm that did not freeze salaries). And they made six figures during each year that I was taking on law school debt.

I didn't read 137's point to be that everyone who goes to a top undergrad program can immediately become a multimillionaire. The point seemed to be that if you went to a top undergrad school, there was no barrier to you stepping directly into a six-figure job with *much* more upside potential than any law firm job. And that certainly matches my experience.

But it's obviously much tougher for undergrads to land that Goldman gig now than it was then.

141 - Columbia is an abject toilet. Crawl back into your hole, toilet male.

131 here

I did not go to an Ivy undergrad. If I did, I would not be in law school. But given my starting point of not having an Ivy League degree, law school was the only way I would ever make anything resembling a substantial amount of money.

131 here, one last point before I go to bed

Notice that I said "a world of lucractive employment opportunities", not "THE world of lucractive employment". Clearly, I did not mean to say that law school was the only way to get money. Second, by using the relatively middling adjective "lucractive", I did not mean to imply that lawyers are rolling in wealth; they make a modest living, but its still pretty decent. Even bottom 10% at HYS makes more than 10% of people. That's pennies compared to a financier, but you won't starve to death.

I absolutely agree with you that if you have an Ivy Degree, or a degree in math/science, you should go work on Wall Street. But that's not all people. For some, law school is the only way to a decent salary.

Arg, I meant "make more than 90%". Time to sleep.

Intersting 143. Do you understand logically why it doesn't follow from your inability to get a reasonably good paying job without law school that "no one" goes to law school for anything other than money? Consider your statement that if you had gotten into an Ivy undergrad you wouldn't have gone to law school. Now consider than tons of Ivy undergrads go to law school.

PS, B-School would probably still be a better bet for someone like you who went to a crap undergrad and is only interested in money. It's just a little less risk-averse.

141 a lot of '06-'07 grads who followed this line of thinking are scrapping for < $75k jobs in stodgy corporations unless their parents can fund a year-long job search. those who didn't follow the fast money aren't nearly as screwed. of course, that does you little good for your graduation year. tough luck.

To the original #10, I'm not arguing against law school since I assume you have good reasons to go (strong desire or interest in the practice of law).

To quote/paraphrase something I've read elsewhere about law school (maybe this site, maybe a blog linked to from the ABA Journal page):

Go T1, go state (i.e. cheap) or don't go.

So in your case, if the choices are T2 or T4 with scholarship, I'd say go T4. But just so you realize, I'm merely passing on my opinion based on discussions with others and what I've read elsewhere -- if you want an opinion from someone with expertise, ask another.

The advantage as others have noted of having low student debt gives you a lot more options. Going elite (which from your post is not an option) gives one options despite debt (though this economy, who knows if even T1 is still a good bet?).

Excellent site abovethelaw.com and I am really pleased to see you have what I am actually looking for here: this... As it's taken me literally 2 hours and 51 minutes of searching the web to find you (just kidding!) so I shall be pleased to become a regular visitor :)
http://www.searchmycampus.com/

What V20 firm will have the balls to lower 1st year salary to $120k????

NO decent firm, V20 or otherwise, will lower the salaries of current first years.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see the "market" change in the coming months, such that incoming first years (i.e., class of 09) will start at a lower salary.

Current first years will remain at $160k; current second years, most of whom are frozen at $160k, if they survive until the end of the year, will do so because they made hours - and will thus receive a bonus - thereby making their comp higher than first years (most of whom won't make hours).

150 -- Debevoise.

You are all idiots. The fact that you are debating which is the better school (and for many of you this obviously determines your self-esteem) clearly demonstrates that you have not left the world of academia and are ill-prepared for the rigours of the real world. Do you still wear your high school letter jacket with your fraternity baseball cap? Grow up.

You are all idiots. The fact that you are debating which is the better school (and sadly for many of you this obviously determines your self-esteem) clearly demonstrates that you have not left the world of academia and are ill-prepared for the rigours of the real world. Do you still wear your high school letter jacket with your fraternity baseball cap, too? Grow up.

151--Hopefully, all of them.

How's that Ivy undergrad - finance - 30 y.o. millioniare track working out now?

Suffice to say that industry is not promising for at least the next five years.

In retrospect I would pay twice as much for a law school that taught black letter law instead of f-ing theory. I would only hire people from there as well. Is that what T-2/3/4 is like? Im not kidding, I really want to know.
Since most of us learned more relevant information from Conviser for a couple grand than we did from law school for 150k.

Biglaw associate here -- Not sure I LOVE the law, but it's insulting to me that you think because I have a well-paying job, I have less respect/reverence/interest in the law than somebody who works for a non-profit. Typically those people have a love for a cause, much moreso than the law.

people saying t2 = t4 need to go back to XoXo, come here once you finished undergrad

t2 schools often have median lsat scores of 161 or higher. t4 scores are in the 140s. depending on the school 10-15% will get biglaw (in a good year) at a solid t2 (located in a big city). T4 school's OCI mainly consist of JAG and public defenders, with maybe 5 people total landing in biglaw each year.

t4 students = functional retards.
t2 students = middle of the road lawyers with middle of the road job prospects.

Just more proof that lawyers today are getting paid what they're worth in this economy.

131, I did. I loved law school. It was intellectually stimulating, it was a life-changing challenge. I did not expect a vocational experience and I was not disappointed. I left a good career with a government job I realistically could never lose to go to law school. I did spend 150K but, after 5 years, I have already made up the difference, including my 2.5 years of no earnings, relative to my former career. And many parts of the experience are priceless, espeically the friends and the connections. So if I never practice again after today I cannot regret the choice.

OK, so here goes. I went to a tier 3 school in a major city on a large scholarship. I landed a biglaw job (was #8 in the class when I interviewed my 1L fall for the job). I also was on law review (graded on because of my rank.).

Here's the breakdown of why I went there:

1. I didn't know if lawschool was for me. I have a MS in chemistry and was a scientist for 4 years before the lawschool decision.

2. Because of #1, and the fact I had a MS and BS degree on full scholarships, I refused to study for the LSAT because I believe standardized tests are crap and teach nothing but "who'se mommy and daddy paid for them to take a review course."

3. Because of 1 and 2, I did ok, but not great on the LSAT. I just didn't care and to this day don't care about tests. However, I know in school I can kick ass (hence the full rides to undergrad and grad school). Therefore, I knew I had a great chance of doing well at lawschool.

4. In NYC, the top schools I could never get into. (Columbia, NYU), based on the above facts. Therefore, if I went to say, Fordham, It costs $40K a year for tuition plus living expenses in NY. Kids graduate there with around $160K in loans. Or, tier 3 school gave me $30K a year scholarship. I'm graduating with around $50K in loans.

5. I could've transferred after 1L year to a better school, but by then one really knows if they're gonna get a biglaw job or not, so what's the point.

6. I hope that helps out the kid asking. Screw all these "prestige whores" on this site. They are gross. I know a kid from Harvard who is the worst associate I ever met (and also a douche!). I also know the sweetest, smartest gal from Harvard. Same goes for any lawschool in the country. I don't work in a V10 nor ever have plans or aspirations to (although 2 did invite me for callback interviews). So the kids on this website that say it's garbage just have low self esteem (and most are lawstudents posting not lawyers). Hope that helps and if you have any questions please let me know. :) :) :)

162 here, also I did graduate from lawschool 3 years ago. I guess in the reminiscing I posted "I am graduating. . . "

Need another cup of coffee. :)

I saw comment #37 and it is kind of true. As a public interest lawyer who worked really hard to get the job I have, I resent associates showing up like they are god's gift expecting us to want them. Well, guess what- your years of "document review" don't prepare you to work in nonprofit at all- you are just as useless to us as you were to your own firm.

I saw comment #37 and it is kind of true. As a public interest lawyer who worked really hard to get the job I have, I resent associates showing up like they are god's gift expecting us to want them. Well, guess what- your years of "document review" don't prepare you to work in nonprofit at all- you are just as useless to us as you were to your own firm.

93 says

The universal experience of HLS students who spend their 3L year at Boalt is that they are only required to work half as hard, get no grade worse than "H," and find the classes (and class discussions) far less stimulating.

Boalt grad says,
. . . and this is bad because?

P.S. While my colleagues were paying $30k + a year for Harvard tuition, I was paying $10k a year for in-state tuition at Boalt. Perhaps because we weren't paying outrageous amounts of money for the thrill of classroom stimulation, we Boalties had no problem getting our stimulation outside the classroom. But thanks for coming to enjoy the California weather for a year!

For the person who thought UVa students don't go to southern markets -- that's totally false. Plenty of UVa grads go to Atlanta and the Texas cities every year (and many go to other cities in the South). The vast majority of the class wants to go to DC so that's the most competitive market.

Even if your argument was true, that only helps you. The non-DC markets were always easier to get callbacks from (at least when the market was strong when I went earlier this decade.) Plus if you are from the South they will want you all the more regardless of how non-South oriented your T10 school is.

To 162:

I was #1 in my class during my 1L fall when I interviewed for jobs. Then my 1L fall grades actually came.

Also, LSAT apologies... how many years later? Get over it.

Dear future & former BigLaw associates complaining about how hard it is to get a public interest job:

Welcome to the world that actual public interest lawyers have been living in for decades. Gee, we're sure glad you stopped by and said hello, but you should probably get in line behind all those other people who spent every summer in law school doing public interest work for free, actually took courses in the type of law we practice, and maxed out on their school's loan repayment assistance -- all because they CARE about public interest work, and applied to public interest organizations as their FIRST choice instead of as a backup plan.

BigLaw associates, I know you thought getting paid a lot meant that you were the most competitive law school grads out there. But you have no idea how many incredibly bright and talented lawyers (who probably got better grades in law school than you did) chose the public interest route long before you decided to pop in. So cry us a river about how hard it is to find a decent volunteer gig. Maybe now you'll have some inkling of what it's like to be a real public interest lawyer -- competing for the very few desks that these organizations have to offer, barely paying the bills, and working harder than most law firm associates ever will.

If you really want to come work for us, ditch the arrogance and realize that most 2Ls on the public interest route are more qualified to volunteer here than you are. Take a moment to ponder the fact that the public interest lawyers you're applying to work for are more talented, hard-working and committed than you will ever be. Maybe even think about how your deferral stipend or severance package is more than these public interest lawyers make in a year. And show some goddamn respect. Our field is not some second-rate backup net to catch poor BigLaw associates falling from heaven. We already have the cream of the crop. And it isn't you.

Love,
Public Interest Lawyers

85, 115, & 165, ditto.

111 and 135, you have no idea what you're talking about. please stop torturing the rest of us with your idiocy.

Look, let's just admit to some facts here: if you didn't go to Rutgers-Camden, I shit all over you. Literally. I mean, my bowels are very, very loose right now.

159- not necessarily. I am a 2007 grad of a solid T2 in a major east coast legal market. I have very strong grades. My in-house SA position went away when company was bought out. I have been unemployed for nearly two years. Insanely unemployed. Two interviews in all of 2008. Neither was for a legal position. Can't get temp work. Can't get retail work. Can't get work. T2 = T4 = ITT Tech = 7th grade inner-city drop-out.

but 169-

They are ENTITLED to do what they want. They know how to paginate that discovery better than you EVER will, and they were on law review.
Please welcome them by sending the Public Interest Town Car to their homes. Once you show them where breakfast is served they will get right on that cite check for the Sr. Associate who will write the internal memo for the partner. Please mention to the Public Interest partner that they are working on the document review as well.
And could you also show them where the coffee machine is, they cant seem to find it. And whats wrong with the carpets here, they seem dirty.....

116 -

"Chock full o' nuts? They should call it 'chock full o' flavor.'" -- Bill McNeil

67 - Actually, the top jobs in Atlanta pay exactly 160k. Half the lawyers I know in Atlanta are getting paid that as first years right now - and still have jobs. The other half are banking 145k, and still have jobs. Sounds like you're 3-4 years behind.

I'm a little sick of the PI lawyers acting like BigLaw people only do doc review. Second year, V20 law firm, and I haven't done an ounce of due diligence or doc review. I work my a** off, billed 2200 hours last year without those easy, mindless hours. How you ask? I'm a corporate bankruptcy attorney. And I love it. It was my favorite class in law school, and I love going into work every day. I didn't do PI work because frankly, I just don't care. You mop up after the s*** of the world and I'm happy for you. You like it. But some of us like what we do and find that rewarding. It doesn't mean you worked harder in law school (you didn't) or that you're a better person than the rest of us. And it sure as hell doesn't mean you're a better lawyer than the rest of us. So yeah, you're not after prestige, but it doesn't mean you're not on your high horse right now. Go f*** yourself..

Oh, and to 10 -- go to the T4. I went to one of those Big 10 schools from out of state, and I hate that I owe as much money as I do. I have no intention of leaving BigLaw anytime soon, and in this economy I don't think I'm getting fired, but I'm still tied to BigLaw until those loans get paid. Loved the school, hate the bill.

Hey 173...I have done nothing but public interest since I started school, and oh

I AM on Law Review. A top 50 ranked in fact!

Have a nice day.