Coat hanger justice is blind.

Ropes to Douchebag. oh wait, there already.

What I want to know is if they offered the summer associate that plagiarized his law review article an offer???

Will the incoming first years receive a deferral stipend?

the public interest fellowship will pay you $60k
the pure sabbatical will pay you 20% of your salary

give em' some rope. then see if they swing or hang...

Fuck!!!! Firms that wait too long are going to fuck their incoming associates! ALL FIRMS NEED TO EITHER CONFIRM THEIR ORIGINAL START DATE OR COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR INCOMINGS ABOUT THE PUSH BACK!

Is the sabbatical available to incoming associates? What if you decide not to come back at the end of the sabbatical? Do you get to keep the money? I really think the firms should just offer a voluntary program to rescind acceptance in exchange for a nice severance, like 3 months salary or 20% or whatever. I am sure there are some associates that will just take it and move on to other opportunities.

same question as #5-- will the incoming first years receive a deferral stipend?

We get a 20k salary advance instead of the 10k we were originally going to get.

so....we had our eiw orientation today (2L oci). if you thought i was nervous before, you ain't seen nuthin yet!

QUOTE: 'we recently heard from a prestigious nyc firm that hired 140 for summer 08, 100 for summer 09, and plans on hiring 15 for summer 10'

the entire room shit their pants at this news. now we are all nervous T-10 1L's!!!!

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

9, or the firm could rescind your acceptance and give you nothing. An offer does not create an entitlement for something "nice."

I was pushed back at another firm. It's not the delay that bothers me, it's that I have no confidence I'll actually have a job come January 2010.

Has anyone heard from DLA yet?

11 - will the firm somehow get your health insurance before the January start?

11 - will the firm somehow get your health insurance before the January start?

now try hunting for a job come october:

"so are you an admitted attorney" - uh, no

"well wait, have you passed the bar" - uh, don't know

"okay, but you have no offer" - well i'm not really sure...

13 - obviously... the most logical thing to do right now from an economic perspective is to rescind offers. If they are concerned about not having enough work and the cost to employ the massive incoming class, the can save the most money and provide the best opportunity for associates if they employ a smaller class. They are not doing this because 2Ls will never forget and wisely choose to accept an offer from a firm that did not take such drastic action, despite that the action was justified in light of the current economic conditions. Anyone who penalizes the firms for managing their business, which might include layoffs and rescinded offers has the entitlement problem, not me. So, back to my idea... If they are planning to preserve the entire incoming class, offering an opportunity to rescind acceptance will only help. No one would penalize them for the offer; it is a win-win situation.

So, if I accepted multiple offers, do you think the firms will find out that I'm collecting multiple stipends?

I mean, in another year, can't I just tell them I'm not showing up because I've secured other employment?

11 - do u have a copy of the memo to incoming associates? is $20K confirmed?

Good thing their plans to go national with the Faegre merger didn't happen. They would probably have had to fire even more associates.

Goodwin and Wilmer, its your move.

Boston is watching.

21- yeah- "In connection with this change, we are increasing to $20,000 the amount of the salary advance available to incoming associates upon graduation from law school."

21. I'll confirm it. It's in the email sent out to 3Ls.
-not 11

Mercy how I loathe you, Elie.

If Lat had written this story, he would have done his job. The Ropes associate who sent you the email could have told you the stipend amount. It's $60,000 + medical. Why are you so lazy? Or is a lame attempt to sensationalize, writing "the memo doesn't say..."

In related news, I think this is a good move by the firm. Paying people to sit around and do nothing is bad for the firm and bad for the associate (professionally anyway).

Now I wish I weren't so busy - I'd take the sabbatical in a heartbeat.

i'm pretty sure ropes folks are the smuggest douchenozzles in big law. ha ha, now if wachtell would just publish its ppp already.

douchenozzles to stress and misery!!!

23 - shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

12 - sounds like Cravath or Skadden

23,

Wilmer and Goodwin better step up and announce something equal or better. If not, Ropes will create some distance between itself and the other two, which isn't good for anyone (except Ropes).

Boston Three Party to Jan. 2010!

23 - shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

i think i am having a heart attack

Wilmer doesn't need to announce anything. The firm did Cravath-level bonuses. It increased salaries like most top tier law firms, unlike Hogan or Arnold & Porter. It hasn't shortened the summer program. And unlike Covington or Ropes, it does not have a substantial corporate practice group that's a drain on the rest of the firm.

30 - So far WilmerHale hasn't fired anyone, nor pushed back dates. Seems like Goodwin and Ropes have already taken care of that distance...from behind.

33 & 34 are dead-on. Wilmer continues its ascent with respect to financial performance and associate compensation/retention

when is milbank going to push us back already? we need to know so we can plan accordingly.

Goodwin just announced that they are offering window washing and other janitorial positions for incoming associates. They will pay 30% of salary and believe that associates who take advantage of this program will be able to learn by observing other associates work while they clean, shred documents, and take out the trash. Participants can attend meetings and social events, but they have to clean up after.

Two other things to note about Wilmer's headcount: 1) It has consistently been conservative in the size of its summer classes; 2) Given that a fair number of associates, counsel and partners have and continue to leave for the Obama Administration, massive layoffs seem unlikely.

This is what happens when the firm management grossly miscalculates demand. The huge summer of '08 is perhaps understandable. The huge summer class of '09, after the economy tanked, is inexcusable.

Nice work management.

37, GP has announced nothing. They are staying quiet in the hopes that their incoming associates forget they have offers, and don't show up in the fall. That'll solve it!

Deferring incoming associates to January 2010 is disappointing, but not a horrible problem. Such associates shouldn't feel the need to find public interest spots for 3 or 4 months. Besides, not many public interest organizations would want a 3-4 month rental. Just wouldn't be worth the training time. Unless a firm is in real trouble, needing to push incoming associates out to the second half of 2010, there should not be a crazed panic over finding public interest back-up positions. Get a grip.

Deferring incoming associates to January 2010 is disappointing, but not a horrible problem. Such associates shouldn't feel the need to find public interest spots for 3 or 4 months. Besides, not many public interest organizations would want a 3-4 month rental. Just wouldn't be worth the training time. Unless a firm is in real trouble, needing to push incoming associates out to the second half of 2010, there should not be a crazed panic over finding public interest back-up positions. Get a grip.

sounds like nervous is talking about white & case.

22 - Ropes hasn't fired a single associate, so I don't know what you mean by "fired even more associates." The firm has announced that they do not intend to fire any associates or decrease the summer class size, after their experiences during the early 90's (where the firm cut back on hiring due to a downturn and was then short staffed for the next 10 years).

I also hardly think the firm needed a merger to "go national" when it has the largest IM practice in the country and reps most of the countries hospitals. How exactly can a firm with over 1000 attorneys not be considered "national?"

34 - Ropes hasn't fired associates, and given the fact that everyone seems to be pushing back dates, its a safe bet Wilmer will too.

One, two, three...four month deferral! Ah-ha-ha-ha...::dissolves into weeping::

-Count Layoffula

why aren't firms offering staggered starts? I can't believe that litigation is as slow as corporate. (or even close).

One year deferral with compensation (even if only 20% of salary) is better than a 3 month delay with just an advance. At least we can get a decent job or an LLM or even an MBA. It will save the firms even more money to defer, so it really does not make any sense that they are not offering that, especially as a voluntary option.

so what should I do with my extra 3 months?
find temp work? write law review articles? volunteer? watch TV? travel?

22 - Ropes hasn't fired a single associate, so I don't know what you mean by "fired even more associates." The firm has announced that they do not intend to fire any associates or decrease the summer class size, after their experiences during the early 90's (where the firm cut back on hiring due to a downturn and was then short staffed for the next 10 years).

I also hardly think the firm needed a merger to "go national" when it has the largest IM practice in the country and reps most of the countries hospitals. How exactly can a firm with over 1000 attorneys not be considered "national?"

34 - Ropes hasn't fired associates, and given the fact that everyone seems to be pushing back dates, its a safe bet Wilmer will too.

47,

I'd rather just start than take a year off and have to deal with the hassle of finding a real job.

With 5 months off, I can take August to relax, and then get a generic part time job (either legal temp work or bartend or something fun).

46,

But its also likely that firms hired more litigation associates than corporate to compensate for this.

33-35,

we know you're all the same person.

dpw > ropes & gray.

is anyone really surprised though?

37 is the man!!

37- you just made me piss myself with laughter.....if only the incoming associates were here now to help clean it up.

Is this "invitation" for incoming associates to take a year to do public interest work an implicit threat of a lay off if I turn it down? In other words, am I facing a considerable risk of losing my job if I start in Jan. '10 rather than take the public interest option?

50- we know you're an assclown

Will anybody actually take these voluntary public interest options?

If my firm would help me get something abroad, I'd do it.

Any insight as to
--fellowship opportunities at what percentage of current salary?
--sabbatical-I gather without pay
--deferred start date--any stipend being paid to subsidize impacted incoming class?

Hey Nervous T10 1L, I figured out who you are.

All your firms are belong to Weil!

What's all the comparison between DPW and R&G. They are so different. DPW is simply much better in every practice area. If DPW is in trouble, why would R&G remain intact?

If I could find a public interest job for a year and was confident that nothing would happen to my offer while I was doing it, I would go ahead.

Those are two "ifs" though.

Also, with these $60k things. Is that instead of, or on top of, the salary from a PI place?

54,

That probably depends on how much billable work there is in 2010.

62 - the Ropes fellowships say the $60K is instead of a salary from the PI place - you have to refuse all compensation from them.

59 -- leave nervous T10 1L alone.

62 - yeah because PI firms are itching to invest time in unbarred noobs who plan to leave after a year.

apparently you can get a job at Ropes and still be an f-ing retard

44/49 - 1) learn how to press "post comment" once.

2) 10% of your entire staff.
3) January 2010
4) "Please go away now so we don't have to keep paying you."
5) Case closed.

Its premature to say Wilmer will push back on start dates. They usually make start date decisions in April (though the incoming class wishes they would hurry up) and there is no indication of any push-backs. Of all the firms, Wilmer seems to be in a far stronger position, so will hopefully use this time to show that it values its associates and is a true market leader.

61 - go back to your books since your last 1L finals will be here in two months. Different firms have practices in which they specialize. DPW is great at many things and has an overall more prestigious reputation, but DPW can't touch R&G's Intellectual Property, Investment Management (probably the best in the country), and Private Equity (probably top 2-3 along with Simpson and Kirkland) groups. In that same vein, if you want to go into Bankruptcy, go to Weil, and if you want M&A, go to Wachtell or Skadden.

67, where do you work and how much do you want to bet that your firm, if its a "national" firm, is not going to make it through 2009 without similar cost-cutting measures?

Its probably useless talking to an arrogant fool. You're going to be act like an ass until your firm does the same thing (if they're humane about it).

I run a company that hires poor, desperate immigrants that have not been able to complete all the paperwork to become an American citizen. They are hard workers and deserve to stay employed with my company. I could use a few lawyers to help me keep ICE off my back. I just started an PI immigration law firm and have 50 positions available for any incoming BIGLAW associate seeking a one-year PI opportunity. Pay is obviously $0 and I may need your help transporting my employees from various locations.

44/49 - You are either in denial or grossly uninformed. Ropes has fired many associates in the good old stealth fashion. Further, they just layed off 106 staff members.

Get a clue before you comment. Oh and, if you must comment, just hit the post button once.

44/49 - You are either in denial or grossly uninformed. Ropes has fired many associates in the good old stealth fashion. Further, they just layed off 106 staff members.

Get a clue before you comment. Oh and, if you must comment, just hit the post button once.

That's nice of them to provide health benefits.

If you know who Nervous is, out him so we can shame him from posting self-centered bullshit.

How likely is it that there will be more billable work in Jan 2010? Seriously I'm asking

Nervous isn't an individual. There is a little of him in each of us.

12 - Interesting news. No hint as to who it is? I don't think S&C had a class of 140 and Cravath's was about 160. Skadden or DPW maybe?

Ropes associates - How busy are you? I'm curious to hear just how dire it is there.

78 --

it's gotta be white & case.

72/73 - At the state of the firm, we were told that the same number of people were given comments last November as the year before, which actually represented a smaller percentage of total associates due to overall growth. How can they be conducting "stealth layoffs" if they are dropping a smaller percentage of associates than they did in 2007?

Regarding the double post, pot, meet kettle.

69 You are funny. DPW doesn't do IP so you can't compare these two. DPW's corporate, litigation, and tax are much better than R&P. Unless you are so particular about what you want do (IP), why would you go to R&P if you can get on board at DPW?

Dear Goodwin,

Please ship the start dates because I am going to kill my roommate/incoming associate if she keeps bouncing off the walls.

Thanks,

K.N.

Although affected like any other firm in this economy, Wilmer is nonetheless in a far more stable financial position than its competitors. They are broadly diversified (unlike Ropes and their over reliance on that dead industry, PE) and have been saints when compared to other firm's associate hiring binge in recent years. Wilmer is DC heavy which is a town surviving this economy far better than other towns.

While Wilmer is coming off strong now, have they announced start dates yet for the incoming class? If not, then I'm still holding my breath.

80 -

I though White & Case hired MORE in '09 than in '08. So it wouldn't be them.

The question is whether Ropes will be able to maintain its historic 99.8% offer rate...

86 --

i don't think so, man. white & case was WAAAYYYYY oversubscribed last summer (08), i believe with 140. i heard they are oversubscribed for this summer too, but not as bad as last. those numbers almost exactly parallel what i've heard about white & case.

I think it is obvious that just about every firm hired too many associates for the 2008 and 2009 summer classes and will be drastically scaling back during OCI 2009. Who cares who announced it already... 1Ls should consider dropping out; they will be known in the future as the lost class of 2011.

any 1L who's seriously considering dropping out should also consider doing JD/MBA or some other combination.

90 - or that... anything to avoid competing for a job as a SA in 2010 or new associate in 2011.

I really hate that every time Ropes does something Wilmer people are quick to announce that they are the more stable firm and otherwise better. It's just plain ridiculous.

1) to say that Ropes has done layoffs and Wilmer has not is foolish. Both firms likely have done a small number of stealth attorney layoffs at senior levels. Also, Wilmer most certainly has been letting staff go - they just have done it much more quietly. In past recessions, they have done dribs and drabs of terminations to avoid bad press.

2) Yes, Ropes does a lot of private equity. But Wilmer does plenty of venture capital and IP transactional work, both of which are fairly slow right now. In fact, Wilmer has a whole office in suburban boston dedicated solely to venture capital work.

3) At both Ropes and Wilmer, it's hit or miss right now as to whether you are busy or slow and really depends on what matters you are staffed on. I know corporate people in investment management and life sciences who are slammed and litigation people who are slow and vice versa. Same thing at Wilmer: if you do lots of IP litigation, you are busy, but other areas of lit are slow and corporate is dead.

4) On the Davis Polk point, screw prestige: which firm has a more diversified corporate practice? DPW might be more prestigious overall but, contrary to popular belief, Ropes does not just do private equity. It does lots of investment management, health care, life sciences, and government regulatory work and those areas are not showing major slowdowns. DPW, by contrast, is an M+A factory. And correct me if I am wrong, but there dont' seem to be many deals going on right now.

So, the moral of the story: all 3 firms are high-end shops and will weather this storm better than others.

92 - DPW is not a M&A shop. DPW does capital market, M&A, financial institution, private equity, investment management, and restructuring.

92 is former Wilmer associate. Get over it -- you weren't good enough to cut it.

shut up, 94

I agree with 92 that we're hit or miss on activity levels. IM is crazy busy, as is IP lit. For everyone else, it depends on what you're staffed on, but in NY, we have a comparable activity level to other NY offices. PE may not be busy, but we have a diversified corp practice. I don't think that anyone has a better IM practice than us, and very few have life sciences practices as large as ours. We also have a ton of exempt clients, who account for a good chunk of work.

Word is that a big client got fed up with quality of work and bolted

97 - Where did you hear that, and what kind of client is it supposed to be?

If I had to bet, I'd go with Wilmer. Its securities enforcement and litigation practice is positioned for the SEC's comeback.

92 - You sound like you are in Beantown. Save your hostility for Wilmer and those firms you consider your peers. From your comment it is clear you don't know much about DPW.

There seems to be two camps of Wilmer people here. There's the legacy-Wilmer folks (definitely 33, 38, 84, 99) and the legacy-Hale folks (definitely 92).

Ropes, Wilmer, and DPW are all considered top shops out here on the West Coast, but if you ask me, you are comparing apples, with oranges and pears. There is little overlap in their core practices nationally, and DPW has a much broader global footprint.

Out West these transplants have made inroads-

Ropes - life science leader - with only competition from Wilson and other Ca firms. PE, VC and lit make for pretty diverse practice and they are expanding - recruiting heavily at the top schools.

Wilmer - really viewed as a top DC appellate/lit shop with some good IP and lit work out of a small Palo Alto office. Tech folks know Boston teams are exceptional, but not as a major player on this coast, at least not now.

DPW - one of the few successful NY transplants out here. Primarily a cap markets powerhouse - they also have a bunch of big name clients where they land some significant M+A and IP lit work too. They have landed some top laterals over the last couple years but pretty conservative growth overall

73, you are (i) wrong, (ii) not a Ropes associate and therefore (iii) not in a position to comment, so finally, (iv) shut it.

To all these deferring firms, it would be incredibly helpful if you'd cover medical insurance for us from the starting on the date of our original start dates. Ropes, you can even charge us for it and make us pay it back with the rest of the loan. It's cheaper if the firm buys it for us in bulk as opposed to us purchasing it as individuals, and it's a lot easier for those of us who are going to be moving across the country to new cities.

I imagine this is just wishful thinking, but it would be nice.

The attorney on R&G's management committee sent out a letter to us three weeks ago talking about welcoming us in the "fall." Now, this delay. These arrangements obviously took a lot of time to work out. Were we just blatantly lied to in the letter three weeks ago?

Ropes has 184 incoming associates. The firm saves about $8.5M with this move.

103 - you are wrong and clearly not at Ropes.

106, I certainly hope you're not a colleague.

I'm a midlevel who enjoyed my "Risotto Expo" meal prepared in the Fort Hill Cafe. What floor is that on again?

Yes, I am at Ropes and no, I'm not wrong.

- 103

107, you certainly enjoyed your Kool Aid at lunch too. Oh, wait, the Cafe doesn't sell Kool-Aid does it?

Time will tell as to who is right. BTW - when are you starting your Fellowship?

- 106

That's what I thought 106, and I'm plenty busy, thanks.

Also, I'm not sure what "time will tell" - assuming you are 73, your unfounded misstatements relate to the past. Time isn't going to make them true.

73/106 - Any response to the fact that an equal number of associates were asked to leave in 2007 and 2008? That hardly seems like "stealth layoffs."

So the word on the street at Ropes is that very few current associates are planning on applying for the fellowships. I wonder what % of associates the firm is hoping to have accept these fellowships? If not enough people accept, there'll be lots of heads on the chopping block. It's also interesting that the application deadline for the fellowships is about a month before our reviews. I wonder if people will be "encouraged" to apply for them or told that their performance is crap.

R&G has been steadily conducting stealth layoffs since '07, when it first became apparent that they had over-hired by a substantial amount for the summers of 07 and 08. since management is too cowardly to not give every summer an offer, no matter how incompetent the would-be attorney, the layoffs have disproportionately impacted more senior classes. eventually they will have to resort to overt lay-offs, but R&G will put it off as long as possible to try to protect their unfounded reputation as a "safe" firm.

112 - then why is the 09 class bigger than the 08 class?

Yea 111, i'd imagine not many are going to take the year of public interest with a stipend, since the program requires forgoing any additional compensation offered by an otherwise approved "alternative." No way I can pay back my loans and live in boston on their stipend, while forgoing additional income as required under the program :(

Yea 111, i'd imagine not many are going to take the year of public interest with a stipend, since the program requires forgoing any additional compensation offered by an otherwise approved "alternative." No way I can pay back my loans and live in boston on their stipend, while forgoing additional income as required under the program :(

Yea 111, i'd imagine not many are going to take the year of public interest with a stipend, since the program requires forgoing any additional compensation offered by an otherwise approved "alternative." No way I can pay back my loans and live in boston on their stipend, while forgoing additional income as required under the program :(

Anymore info out of Ropes from the March 30 meeting?