ATL March Madness for Law Firms, Round 3: Legal Employment’s Elite Eight
We’re down to eight firms in our 2009 March Madness for Law Firms. It’s an NCAA-style tournament in which ATL readers vote to crown one firm Biglaw’s safest — the place where you are most likely to still have your job at year’s end.
The real NCAA tournament heads into the Final Four this weekend, and we plan to catch up with them. We’re bringing you the Legal Employment Elite Eight match-ups today, with polls open until midnight on Wednesday, April 2. We’ll then head into the Final Four, with Biglaw’s two safest firms competing for the crown on Monday.
There were many upsets in the latest round of ATL March Madness. Heading into the Elite Eight round, it looks like Vault prestige seeds mean little. Over 6800 people voted in the most popular match-up of the Sweet Safe Sixteen, helping Paul Weiss (V13) fend off Skadden (V4). Williams & Connolly (v14) managed to squeak out a victory over Sullivan & Cromwell (V3), in a tight competition with a final score of 51-49.
Heading into the weekend, Debevoise (V12) was beating Davis Polk (V5), but when the buzzer sounded at midnight Sunday, some last-minute voters managed to hand a narrow victory to DPW. The final score was 50.1 to 49.9.
There were a few blowouts as well: Kirkland 72 - Linklaters 28; Cravath 80 - Sidley 20; and Wachtell 82 - Gibson 18.
Meanwhile with regard to the real NCAA tournament, there are 738 ATL readers and one Elie Mystal competing in pool over at ESPN. Elie would like to point out that he’s tied for fifth in that tournament at the moment. K. Eimicke is at the front of the pack for now though, and looking good to win a gavel-shaped ATL stress ball should UNC go all the way.
After the jump, we’ve got new ATL March Madness brackets, the polls for the Elite Eight round, and commentary from ATL’s Dick Vitale, Lord Oberon.
The Elite Eight contests are below. Voting ends on Wednesday at midnight.
Lord Oberon, the Dick Vitale of ATL March Madness, weighs in with commentary, after the polls.
Lord Oberon, an ATL reader who is playing the part of Dick Vitale for ATL March Madness, weighed in on the Sweet Safe Sixteen. Oberon’s back as a commentator on the Elite Eight, noting that of the firms still in competition, Covington, Wachtell, WillConn have not reported to AmLaw yet, so they are not included in this round-up. Oberon has factored RPL (revenue per lawyer) and leverage into the commentary this time around, per the request of commenters. Here’s what Oberon has to say:
Interestingly, despite commenters’ general opinions, Kirkland may be somewhat of a Cinderella story among the Elite Eight. Kirkland is the only one to increase both partners (6.8%; the largest increase) and other lawyers (4.6%; the largest increase), while increasing Gross Revenue (7%; the largest increase and largest Gross Revenue). In addition, PPP is slightly up, and leverage (non-equity partner lawyers per equity partner) is slightly down (-2%). The only negative indicator for Kirkland is that RPL was down (-3.4%), which is likely attributable to its 5% attorney expansion.Not surprisingly, Paul Weiss did really well: Gross Revenue (6.3%; second largest increase), RPL (0.2%; largest increase) and PPP (3.5%; second largest increase) are all up. Unfortunately, those profits came at the expense of some of their lawyers. Paul Weiss increased its equity partnership 2.7% but reduced other lawyers 3.4% (second largest decrease), thereby reducing overall leverage by 6% (second largest reduction; although also the second largest leverage (4.7:1)).
On the other side, Cravath is really suffering. Gross Revenue (-18.2%; the only reduction among the Elite Eight), PPP (-24%; the largest decrease), and RPL (-18.2%; the largest decrease) have all fallen during the economic downturn. In addition, while the partnership has remained steady at 90, Cravath cut 4% of its other lawyers (largest decrease) thereby reducing leverage by 4.6% (to 3.9:1; second lowest leverage). Those reductions have allowed Cravath’s equity partners to keep their PPP the highest of the reporting Elite Eight (Wachtell hasn’t reported).
Weil’s figures explain the news of last week. Weil decreased its equity partnership by 4% (only firm to do that) while increasing other lawyers 3.4%, which caused an 8% increase in leverage (to 5.5:1; the largest leverage and only firm to increase) and reduction in RPL (2.2%) to $1.035M (smallest RPL). All of this has occurred despite Weil’s general increase in Gross Revenue (4.8%).
Davis Polk’s increase of both equity partners (5%; second largest increase) and other lawyers (4.5%) reduced its leverage by 0.5%. Unfortunately, those increases caused Gross Revenue to be flat (0%; only Cravath’s Revenue dropped farther), and RPL (-10%; second largest reduction) and PPP (-5%; second largest reduction) to be down. Despite those reductions, Davis Polk has the highest RPL ($1.23M) of the Elite Eight—which doesn’t really help their partners given that their PPP is the lowest of the reporting Elite Eight firms—and the least leverage (2.9:1).
Polls close Wednesday, April 2, at midnight. Look out for the Final Four later this week.
Earlier: Prior ATL March Madness 2009 posts




Comments
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Weil is safe if you consider 2 year deferrals safe...which I don't.
why nothing on milbank's deferral of start dates yet
Eh, they all suck.
Covington is safer than Cravath. It's less corporate-dependent. And it doesn't have an incoming class of 150 or so first-year associates.
Wachtell is like Davis Polk, but with less leverage. Vote WLRK.
DPW's leverage is 3.37, not 2.9. I think it's higher than Wachtell, but lower than everyone else.
KIRKLAND!
start dates?
You clearly have no idea how to setup a bracket.
For example, the #1 seed should not be facing the #5 seed in the Elite Eight.
You clearly have no idea how to setup a bracket.
For example, the #1 seed should not be facing the #5 seed in the Elite Eight.
You clearly have no idea how to setup a bracket.
For example, the #1 seed should not be facing the #5 seed in the Elite Eight.
You clearly have no idea how to setup a bracket.
For example, the #1 seed should not be facing the #5 seed in the Elite Eight.
Covington FTW!
This is stupid, how come DPW beat Debevoise when DPW has been doing stealth attorney layoffs and Debevoise management has been emphasizing it does not need to resort to layoffs yet to cut expenses....
cravath cut its summer to 10 weeks and deferred start dates. covington did neither.
cravath is no longer a top law firm, and i certainly would not feel safe being there after the 25% drop in ppp.
dpw beat debevoise because more people voted for it. like this matters anyway. both firms are doing fine and will be fine. if you really think a story on stealth layoffs is indicative of the whole picture, then you are pretty delusional. every big firm needs to cut the fat in times like now.
it's really hard to figure out that oberon works or is going to work at kirkland. his little write up on them is so persuasive and not slanted at all...
Where the FK is Winston & Strong on this list? While all other Chi-town firms crumble, Winston rolls on!!!
I'm an Associate in the Restructuring Group of one of the firms named above (but not Weil). I worked 31.5 hours, and that was just Saturday and Sunday. Biglaw rocks!!!!!
Oh please, that's just a peak, and white collar work isn't too onerous. You can complain when you have to work 15 hours a day in a factory.
I'm surprised to see Wachtel dominating so much. I know they have insane prestige, but it doesn't change the fact that they're a firm that built that prestige on MandA work - an area that is particularly dry right now. Just my thoughts.
The problem is DPW is just a poor man's Wachtell.
According to Americanlawyers, Wachtell's M&A deal volume dropped by more than 40% in 2008. Since they are an M&A focused boutique, their PPP and revenue must have been dropped by more than 20% at least.
16 - I dunno...it looks like a list of statistics to me...hard to write a stilted review that just has a long list of statistics.
Stupid question: why is Williams & Connolly doing so well (not just against Weil, but overall) when there's so little info about them available? And yes, I know they're pitbull litigators.
As comments 8-11 said, and I've pointed out on two of these already, this bracket is wrong.
18=K&E associate. I understand that a bunch of you just had that weekend.
Can someone please get this Oberon guy a life?
WTF? Are you telling me Partner Emeritus went to SUNY Binghamton? So disappointed.
#20, Wachtell doesn't have 1000 attorneys. And they don't have 150 incoming. That is why they are safe.
This is going to end up between WLRK v. W&C
W&C will take the win.
I've always been a fan of the smaller, family-friendly firms.
24--Because there will always be a need for top-notch pitbull litigators. W & C has the perfect business model in this economy: a DC based powerhouse litigation firm.
how is dpw a poor man's wlrk? they have a completely different firm philosophy. the name i always heard paired with wlrk was csm - as in, you went there if you couldn't get an offer at wlrk and wanted to work the same hours.
I don't even want to BEGIN on detailing how many of these facts are wrong.
It's incredible that this shit is posted without the slightest bit of factchecking.
The most rudimentary search will reveal that Cravath has 93 partners. They're also not the second lowest leverage: um, hello Wachtell, Covington, and Williams & Connolly. Nor have they had 4% reductions.
Need I go on? And that was just one firm.
Covington will rightfully trounce CravaTTTh. Agree that W&C vs. WLRK seems like a probable final.
How did MoFo get a ranking in the top 32? Does that mean coal mining in China is "safe"? North Korean satellite launches are safe? GM and Chrysler are safe?
Ok these Covington trolls have to get real. Cravath, other than MAYBE Wachtell, is BY FAR the safest firm.
Yeah, their PPP, Revenue, and RPL dropped by a lot. BUT even despite those drops, their PPP is still in the top 5 of law firms in the world. They can suffer another 25% drop in PPP, and STILL have a PPP higher than all but a handful of firms.
Cravath is the only firm in this bunch that is extremely respected for BOTH litigation and corporate.
Corporate may be doing bad right now, but it will pick up, and Cravath is not going to have any layoffs that would lower their esteem just to have a very short term protection on profits. They have the money, and the strong litigation department, to weather the storm.
Don't let Elie's obvious and constant bias against Cravath fool you. The firm is fine, and is going to be fine-- and so is anyone working there or going to be working there.
Cutting costs via lowered bonuses in bad years, shortened summer programs to trim needless excess, and delaying start dates a little to manage attorney costs are all intelligent moves that don't show weakness--- just making sense.
Covington hasn't even released their PPP or revenue numbers. It's friggin April, what are they waiting for? SAME for Wachtell. Cravath has all its cards on the table and isnt afraid of it. What does Covington or Wachtell have to hide.
Voting for a firm that hasn't released its financial numbers is stupid.
Also, NYC and Cali have had their bubble burst. It's DC's turn. Trust me... powerhouse DC litigation shops are going to feel the sting very soon.
33 - I don't know, AmLaw says 90 (http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202427137779). Also, they said that this doesn't include Wachtell, Covington, or W&C because they haven't reported yet.
14- r u serious? "cravath is no longer a top firm" says you? it took a hit in bad economic times and is cutting costs sensibly. how does that make it not a top firm. it is still a go-to firm for both lit and corp.
fool
covington is dc litigation boutique... it never was or will be a top firm
oh and 32- it's because CSM is a poor man's Wachtell, just like DPW is a poor man's Cravath
Well I woke up in mid afternoon 'cause that's when it all hurts the most.
ummmm. Cravath's profits are the highest of the reporting Elite 8... That's all that needs to be said.
If and when the other firms report, then maybe the story changes. OTherwise, Cravath is the safest, period.
Any firm that can take a 25% hit to PPP and STILL have 2.5 million take home on average per partner is a safe place to be.
Paul Weiss for the win!
How the hell does Weil have 40% against W&C??? They just asked 3Ls to start in 2011!
It makes sense that Wachtell and Cravath would take HUGE hits to Profits. They are NY-based Corporate Powerhouses (granted Cravath is huge in lit too and even Wachtell is but less so). That's why these firms make SO much in normal times. Way more than any stupid litigation shop. That Wachtell and Cravath can take such huge hits and still not only remain viable, but are ALL over the legal news for the matters that go to them is why they are the safest firms.
HOW THE HELL IS COVINGTON BEATING CRAVATH.
seriously, get your heads out of your asses and stop listening to Elie MysTTTal. Cravath is CRAVATH people. It would NEVER fire people. Covington could fire people and no one woudl know or care. Cravath does something and it shakes the legal world.
Remember, this is a competition about the SAFEST firm not necessarily one that has the best PPP or highest prestige. I suppose safety takes on several meanings, but most of us probably mean the firm with the lowest likelihood of layoffs. With that definition, I really don't think Cravath, W&C, or WLRK will have layoffs. But the firm least likely to have layoffs is either WLRK or W&C.
Having high profits is not necessarily what determines layoffs - it's the amount of work (although high profits allow a buffer zone to take some losses)
45- agreed.... but W&C and WLRK havent reported yet. There really is no reason for this... that makes those firms look dubious to me.
And if Cravath took that big of a hit to revenue and PPP, then the even MORE NY and MORe corporate centric WLRK is going to be hit way more.
Most Cravath people couldn't get Covington DC offers. Its science.
46-- true... which is why when I see Wachtell, Cravath, Weil, and Davis in the legal news almost every single day it makes me realize that when you are at the top, obviously you are going to drop in bad times... but the work that is around still goes to the top.
Flight to quality
48- I'm glad Cravath dinged you..... please. Cravath is far more respected than Covington ever will be. The types of litigation they do are entirely different and not really comparable... and Cravath is a litigation powerhouse in its own right just as Covington is. And then comes Corporate... does Covington even DO corporate?
There is a reason that Cravath has sat atop the prestige rankings voted on by PArtners since Vault started keeping track. and the PArtners survey is what matters.
Most Covington people are jealous wannabe losers who like to live in a swamp. It's science
nice 38 - DPW is a poor man's CSM. you're probably the guy that loves wearing his CSM gym bag on the subway, on the bus, and in as many other public places as possible - without realizing how many people had your offer but chose other, more selective shops instead. CSM is undeniably a great firm but the fact that trolls like you get so defensive about it just confirms how great the personalities of the people are that work there. make sure you wear that bag with the label out! Yay CSM!
what the hell are williams and connelly or covington even doing on this list. for that matter even wachtell? how many employees do they even have....
this whole ATL march madness is silly. you can't compare boutiques to big firms
DPW more selective than CSM... that is a laugh 52. a laugh
OK LORD OBERON'S FACTS ARE TOTALLY WRONG... WTF!>
cravath lowballed bonuses out of greed and fear. i wouldn't put it past them to do stealth layoffs.
W&C and Covington > Cravath.
It seems that these problems are never ending!
wilconn always releases numbers late, on their own timetable. last year, they didn't come out till later -- you had to look on the online amlaw to even get them
willconn plays by their own rules b/c they can -- they don't send cookes and bonsai trees, they don't kiss your a$$ just to recruit some dime-a-dozen HLS guy who happened to do well on his torts final but has nothing else going for him, and they don't try to one-up skadden on ppp, rpl, bah blah blah.
37, Cravath had 90 partners last year. They just added 3. And a simple search on their website will reveal as much.
what in the HELL is the obsession w/ covington?? look at chambers -- the only thing they come close to dominating is life sciences and sports law. They're like the firm equivalent of Ohio State Law School. they must have one awesome marketing/PR dept, b/c they're really riding this wave of "prestige" from 1977.
Let no one forget that the same morons who are now bashing Cravath are the same ones who trolled for Skadden and Weil, ranting on and on about how those two firms are unbreakable, that they're the new market leaders, blah blah blah.
No one matched Skadden's bonuses.
Skadden laid off staff attorneys - STAFF ATTORNEYS!!! I.e., chump change!
Skadden has their new time-off program.
And now Skadden has this new corporate-to-litigation program (which, admittedly, might signal many things, but it wouldn't be too far off to assume that they're lacking good work).
Weil, too, has cut their summer program and pushed back start dates.
And yet the same idiotic trolls still go on and on bashing firms that are clearly safer and better either because they didn't get an offer and are still bitter, or just out of sheer schadenfreude. They're nothing more than hyenas who like the sound of their own voice, who have short memories, who enjoy panicking over nothing, and who just don't learn their lesson.
The partners at any one of these firms would eat your baby if they thought it would raise their PPP by a nickel.
hmm, 52, friend of mine at csm told me that the lawyers themselves almost never have firm schwag. it's usually staff that uses all that stuff.
funny enough, i was at port authority this weekend and saw a guy wearing a collared shirt with a "Davis Polk & Wardwell" logo above the pocket. hopefully he was just a tacky staff member. otherwise, firms that print their name on SHIRTS of all things are pretty lame.
So, almost 3000 attorneys were laid off from BigLaw alone in 2009 but no one is really blogging about it but just randomly making piddly comments on ATL? C'mon--if you've been laid off, come to my blog and comment about what's on your mind"
laidoffdiary.wordpress.com
DPW is more selective than CSM...when it comes to looks!
covington tries to create the illusion that they're ultra selective (eg, by doing that silly reference check -- as if it's soooo hard to scrounge up 3 people who somewhat like you). in reality, the avg gpa of cov offerees at my t 7-10 school was top quarter. cravath, meanwhile, was top 10%.
life sciences baby! that's the high-margin, crazy-bank work!!
63, i probably wouldn't start making fun of firm branded attire - given that Cravath has its own TIE that they make people wear to partner funerals. i mean, really?
nice comment 63. i would have believed your story but then you had to pretend that you saw someone wearing a collared shirt at port authority.
"You clearly have no idea how to setup a bracket.
For example, the #1 seed should not be facing the #5 seed in the Elite Eight."
Yes he does. The # 5 seed is in effect a # 2 seed and the Elite 8 is the regional finals.
Cravath is run by a bunch of idiots. Way to go hiring 160 FORDHAM summers and signing up for a dumb lease you can't afford!! I'm so glad I went to S&C. S&C will suck the life out of (it really is a horrible, horrible place to work), but at least I don't have to worry about getting laid off.
#69 -- your post made absolutely no sense. I'd explain why, but it's so obvious that I'm not going to bother.
36: Sad. Do you honestly have nothing else on which to hang your hat?
70 why is s&c horrible?
Note how the author of the post discussed every sweet-sixteen match up except Cleary-Weil. That's because the results are an embarrassment. They don't track realty at all - Weil has announced huge associate start-date delays whereas Cleary is doing just fine (and by the numbers, better than fine). But Weil's announcement after the poll went up gamed the system - intentionally or not (and I tend to think the latter).
WLRK Website --> Nine 2008 associates. Up from seven last week. Layoff rumors not true.
What's going to sink Cravath is the fact that it thinks it's Cravath and that, therefore, ordinary rules do not apply. See e.g., 44.
39: did you get laid off? I normally go to sleep around the afternoon. I drink alot. I drank alot when I was working so I can't really blame the drinking on unemployment except that I now have more time to do so.
awesomeness.
www.laidoffdiary.wordpress.com
Linklaters Partners, Associates and Staff - You're fuckin' out!
Weil much work ahead. GM restructure. Mucho dinero and billables. Same crappy bonus.
I would guess that less than 5 of Cravath's 160 summers were able to get an offer from Covington.
Covington has never had layoffs. Ever. And it never will. It maintains a conservative, elite practice and would never over-leverage itself to the point of destruction like the New York firms did during the good times. It would rather remain highly selective, hire hardly anyone, and turn down work than it would expand for the sake of PPP.
Covington partners may never be as rich as their New York counterparts, but a Covington lawyer is a safe lawyer.
How is Weil even close to W&C?!?
The NY bias is ridiculous. Get real people. Weil just cut the summer and pushed back start dates; W&C is business as usual.
Coffee is for closers...
Wake up 80. The legal world has changed for all non-boutique firms. Covington is a great firm but has moved away from its DC roots and is expanding into other markets like its fellow DC counterparts Wilmer, A&P, and Hogan. However much you think the firm is sticking to its knitting, the expansion into new markets (Silicon Valley for goodness sake and this year!) requires laterals, many new hires and plenty of risk. Not your Daddy's firm anymore.
OOZING IN MY CRAVATH PRESTIGE
No matter how much money they make, WLRK still sounds like a radio call sign.
WLRK is a tame man's WILDMAN HARROLD.
Good one, 85. "You're listening to WLRK 101.5."
Paul, Weiss is a Jewish firm. Discuss.
Paul, Weiss is the bestest firm. Discuss.
How about instead of inane March Madness posts, you report on actual news, such as GDC not pushing start dates back to 2011? There's hard evidence of Nov 2009 start dates and no deferrals.
90 -- how is that "actual news"? i know lots and lots of firms have pushed back start days, and it might feel as though they all have, but there are still plenty of firms scheduled to start on time -- and november isn't really on time anyway, is it? there are definitely firms out there (even some in this "inane" contest) that are scheduled to start in september.
i know, do you just want atl to make you feel like you made the right decision going to GDC?
48 and 51 - You should be aware that science today has been reduced to 'consensus'. Facts don't matter - it's up to whomever has the most money and whines the loudest. Just ask Al Gore....
Does anyone else notice how virtually every single "matchup" is determined along the lines of prestige ranking? Seriously, take Latham out of the equation and it becomes a matter of "which firm has a higher prestige ranking...stay on the edge of your seats to find out even though it's listed alongside the firm's name!"
Pointless.
"Yes he does. The # 5 seed is in effect a # 2 seed and the Elite 8 is the regional finals. "
Have you even looked at this bracket? There is only one bracket, so "regional finals" doesn't make any sense. This isn't like the NCAA's where there are four brackets.
Wachtell should be facing Weil this round if the bracket had been contructed correctly.
Even if you were right that this is "like the regional finals," a 5 can never be "in effect" a 2, because a 5 would have to face the 1 before either could possibly face the 2.
Whoever pointed out that the bracket was wrong was absolutely right.
I'm no Cravath fan. But 14 is an asshat. To say that a longtime corporate powerhouse is no longer a top firm because it's suffering in this economy (though PPP are still higher than most) is ridiculous. Doesn't mean there won't be layoffs. But Cravath is certainly still a top firm.
"Does anyone else notice how virtually every single 'matchup' is determined along the lines of prestige ranking? Seriously, take Latham out of the equation and it becomes a matter of 'which firm has a higher prestige ranking...stay on the edge of your seats to find out even though it's listed alongside the firm's name!'"
Are you talking about Paul Weiss coming out on top of Skadden or Covington coming out on top of Simpson Thacher?
@96 - or WilConn or Weil?
ok fine Covington has never laid anyone off. Guess what, Cravath has never either! And they never will. Covington is a smaller firm and by definition HAS to be more selective. It is like Yale and Harvard... Yalies love to say how they are so selective. You CHOOSE how selective you are when you limit your size. DUH? There is a reason why Cravath is a far more respected firm (by associates AND PARTNERS around the country). It will never lay off associates. It is THE blue chip American firm, and it doesn't want to lose that status,
Plus, CRAVATH IS STILL MAKING MORE MONEY (per partner) THAN EVERY OTHER FIRM IN THE COMPETITION RIGHT NOW..... EVEN IN SUCH A SHITTY ECONOMY.
So this whole too -corporate focused bullshit makes no sense as an argument. Yes, their PPP dropped by a lot because corporate sank. That's why it's a good thing Cravath has one of the best litigation departments in the world to make sure Partners are still paid up the rear.
More diversified = SAFER.
later Covington, we hardly knew ye
Take a look at americanlawyer.com people. Cravath, WLRK, Sullivan, Skadden, Weil, and Davis are on their all the time for all the deals they get. CORPORATE AND LIT
Williams and Connelly? COvington? Nowhere to be found.
SLOBBERING ON THE CRAVATH COCK
98 - Cravath has been doing stealth layoffs for a while now. The 4% reduction noted above indicates that fact.
101 are you a retard?
No, they havent. At all.
That 4% stat is just wrong. Nowhere to be found.
Do you wotk at Cravath? No, because you are an idiot.
They are NOT DOING ANY LAYOFFS. Why don't you try and be informed for a change and not listen to a website commenter who has no proof for his statements on a website that has obviosu bias against Cravath simply because everyone hates on the best of the best.
There has been ZERO rumore of layoffs at Cravath, except for by idiots like you who just like to throw lies out. Go back to Skadden DC
102 -
I actually thought the same as you at first, but then I looked at AmLaw last year compared to that work in progress thing from this year. 457 attorneys last year; 440 attorneys this year.
- 101
91 is a furloughed Latham associate.
Also, @ 103: 457 associates compared to 440 this year ignores the very real possibility of voluntary departures that occurred well before the financial crisis. You can't conclude solely on that information that there were definitely layoffs.
i love how cravath defenders point to the PPP. is that really a fact that matters for you? do you care that PPP reflects the fact that you're highly leveraged and won't ever be a partner yourself b/c they rarely add partners on a significant level? RPL should matter more for determining how much value each lawyer adds - but that figure doesn't help so you ignore it. congrats, PPP is still high - hope that means you get a larger view of the partner suites from your little associate's hole of an office.
105, RPL doesn't help Cravath? Of reporting firms, theirs is third highest (behind S&C and DPW, though essentially even with DPW). And it appears that this year is a better year for Cravath than last (certainly the last half of '08). Covington appears to be doing fine as well. This poll is silly because both Cravath and Covington are safe, I am 99% sure that neither will have layoffs.
The level of defensiveness on this thread regarding Cravath is nothing short of embarrassing.
To the Cravath defenders:
I assume that you are associates at Cravath or (more likely) law students headed to Cravath in the summer or the fall. Remember: you are Cravath, Swaine & Moore, THE "blue chip American firm." Yet here you are throwing tantrums because of some stupid internet contest. For goodness sakes, at least TRY to comport yourselves with a measure of dignity.
All this talk of profits has, at best, indirect value for the purpose of THIS COMPETITION. The question is which firm is safer, not which is more prestigious, profitable, or just plain awesome in the eyes of whomever. As someone said above, for most people "safest" means lower risk of layoffs, deferred start dates, salary freezes, etc.
Given the absolutely massive summer classes the past few years at Cravath, the enormous slowdown in one of the firm's core practices (corp), and its own prediction that things will be awful for the firm in 2009 (see bonus memo), it makes sense for people to think twice as to whether Cravath is *safer* than a firm like Covington. All the more so when one considers that Covington hasn't changed course one bit through the downturn, hasn't overhired, and that its chief practice area (regulatory) is booming right now. This point isn't that Cravath isn't a great firm -- clearly, it is -- but rather that it probably isn't objectively "safer" than the firm it is up against in this silly competition.
Cravath has the highest PPP? Really, you think it's going to beat WLRK? Really? Even with the leverage ratio that's what, three times as high?
Hard to know if this means anything, but when you pull up associates on the Cravath site now, it lists 420. That includes several listed as "not yet admitted."
109---
WLRK is more corporate heavy and more NY heavy than Cravath. Not saying that their PPP won't be higher than CSM for last year, but they will take a huge hit. And that they are so corporate and NY heavy makes them relatively not as safe as others.
and the leverage ratio is HARDLY 3 times as high
The leverage ratio at Cravath probably is 3 times as high as WLRK. WLRK has a 1:1 ratio of Associates to Partners.
108--- how do you know what Covington has done in this downturn? You never hear ANYTHING about them. I'm sorry, but a firm that is pretty much in the dark is not a firm I would consider a safer bet than a firm in the news daily (usually for good, but yes also many time for bad).
Also, things have already picked up for Cravath this quarter as opposed to the horrendous Q4 of 2008. Between having the first IPO, representing the board of GM, and numerous M&A deals and high profile litigation successes, they are doing pretty well.
Don't fool yourselves by thinking ATL is a reliable site or that it represents the legal world as it stands. Check sites like Legal500, Chambers and Partners, American Lawyer, and Law.com. From that, you will easily see what firms are the best, and the safest, considering breadth of practice areas.
Wachtell has around 80 partners. The firm has 250+ lawyers. that is not 1:1
this whol ething became a JOKE when SullCrom lost to William and Connelly. If anything, SullCrom is the safest of them all. They are extremely Corporate-heavy, yet their revenues and PPP barely even budged last year.
cravath cut summers to 10 weeks and pushed back start dates.
covington's summer program is 14 weeks and there has been no change to start dates.
this should be a no brainer.
116- that means absolutely nothing. if anything the firm cutting needless excess is a safer firm to bet on
and where is the proof of this covington info... they don't release any info
Weil is safer than Cleary? Hahahahahahaaahaa! Wow, umm, no, that's great that you Weil-a-philes have so much confidence. See you on the bread lines inside of 2 months
113
Covington troll here. The firm prefers to keep a low profile in the trade press, and I'm not sure I see a correlation between positive press mentions and stability. I seem to remember Brobeck getting a lot of favorable coverage back in the day.
You may be in the dark about the firm, but that doesn't mean clients are. If your barometers are Chambers rankings and Legal500 reviews, the firm does pretty well there: http://www.cov.com/news/detail.aspx?news=1329
http://www.legal500.com/firms/50236-covington-burling-llp/offices/52797-washington-dc
All that said, this whole thing is really pretty silly. Both Covington and Cravath are top-notch firms and a safe choice for any beginning lawyer.
Sure Covington does pretty well in Chambers rankings and Legal 500 reviews... but check out Cravath.
There is no comparing them. Covington is a to notch firm, but it is a niche/boutique firm. Cravath is far more diversified.... which means that it takes hits when it takes hits to a certain area, but I would rather be at a place that is more diverse. Cravath can (AND HAS) redeployed associates to other practice areas from less busy ones. Covington would not have that luxury.
120-
I know I'm being bated, but what the heck....
I did compare the Chambers USA national rankings, and I believe it breaks down as follows (although I did it quickly so this could be wrong):
Covington: 12 practices, 34 lawyers
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/FirmProfile.aspx?fid=3826&ssid=27852
Cravath: 10 practices, 38 lawyers
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/FirmProfile.aspx?fid=3830&ssid=27852
I'm not sure how you can describe Covington as a boutique -- across all offices it has more lawyers than Cravath.
Finally, Covington has not had to redeploy associates because it remains busy in all practice areas.
But again, this whole thing is silly.
-119
Whoops. "Baited"
-119, 121
dude look at the practice areas. covington has so much tiny litigation niches.,.. you cant even count most of those practices
life sciences... really?
Covington will win on the strength of its regulatory practices -- life sciences, privacy, telecommunications, national security transaction clearance, etc. It isn't all about deals and litigation, people -- there is serious money to be made in regulation -- and it requires more thought and skill than completing a standard template merger form.
which is why a firm like Cravath never deals with standard template merger agreements and is known for its expertise in extremely complex mega-deals.........oh yeah, and they are really good in litigation too, well within the same league as Covington,
FIRST OF ALL
W&C IS NOT Williams and Connelly. It's WHITE & CASE. Always. D.C. is a joke
2nd of all. That Covington is even close to Cravath, let alone winning by a small margin, is a disgrace.
Calling Covington a boutique is ridiculous. The firm has almost as many attorneys in DC as Cravath has in New York and 50 more attorneys total in DC and NY than in Cravath. Of course, Covington has other, smaller, offices all over the world as well.
You can dispute which firm might be more "safe" but neither firm is a boutique.
this whole thing is dispicable
The final two should be
WLRK vs. Cravath
and WLRK will win.
Dear 115,
Are you dense? The fact that you're harping on PPP and revenues when the question is safety in employment surely suggests so. Those factors could potentially be relevant to firm "safety," if for instance the partners use a solid financial base to maintain associate hiring, avoid layoffs, forgo deferrals, etc. But if the partners just sit on the profits and still go after their associates (see, e.g., Cadwalader last year to some degree), then PPP and RPL are irrelevant. What little evidence we do have from Cravath suggests that the firm's revenue numbers are not very helpful to employment safety: Cravath slashed bonuses and said they'd probably be $0 in 2009, shortened its summer program, and deferred incoming first years.
I don't understand why people are arguing who is safer based on practice areas and such. There is no need to guess:
Covington and W&C have not shortened their summers. They have not pushed back start dates.
Weil and Cravath have shortened their summers and pushed back start dates.
This is what we call evidence.
WLRK website- 86 partners, 111 associates. 1.29 per partner.
CSM website- 93 partners, 420 associates. 4.52 per partner.
DPW website- 166 partners, 475 associates. 2.86 per partner.
Sure, maybe a couple "counsel" and "not yet admitted" lawyers budge these numbers a tad, but not dramatically, and each firm probably has a bunch of them...
Dramatic difference.
the fact that CSM can have such a greater leverage than DPW and still have greater PPP and RPL (until this year, when it was about even) shows DPW sucks
132- that you think summer programs and start dates are more indicative of safety than breadth of practice areas and financials is absolutely ridiculous.
FIRST OF ALL
Wachtell has 86 partners and 150 Attorneys
Leverage 1.74
There is no way any of the flamebaiters in this thread work at Covington or Cravath. Which leads me to question why those people are so angry and defensive...
The people that thing the length of the summer program is a good measure of the firm's health and associate's safety are stupid. Really stupid. Really, really, really stupid.
134: Are you serious when you say it is a surprise that the extra leverage generates higher PPP for Cravath? Do you need a lesson on how leverage works?
Also, you realize that while your RPL comment may make some sense that RPL has to be adjusted for hours worked. If DPW lawyers (partners and associates) work slightly fewer hours than CSM lawyers then it would take RPL down. Everything I know suggests this to be the case even if only slightly.
You still need to read-up on how leverage works.
134
Are you bad at math? If two firms have the same RPL, then the higher the leverage, the higher the PPP. The fact that Cravath has a comparable RPL to DPW, but a higher PPP shows that Cravath's partners extract more value from the associates overall.
None of you knows what you're talking about.
This whole elite thing is funny. There are about 8 firms in this country who are truly "elite"--and it's not based solely on PPP or the big deals. It's based on the caliber of lawyers they attract and retain, the depth of their practice and their ability to attract new talent, on a very selective basis. Those firms are, I would propose: NY based: Cravath, Wachtell, S&C, and possibly Davis Polk; DC based: Covington, WilmerHale, and Williams & Connolly; LA Based: Munger Tolles; and Boston based: Ropes.
Other firms may make more money, etc. But those 9 above are truly the best.
Of those nine, I would submit that in terms of international reach and practice, S&C is the dominant firm in the world.
I agree with #142. It's mind-numbing to think Williams & Connolly is safer than Sullivan in this downturn. The other upsets in this round are all at least plausible (see Skadden, Simpson), but for crying out loud, S&C announced their incoming start date two months ago (everyone October 5, 2009), they've got the third highest PPP in the country (ahead of Cravath this year), and a huge international practice for diversification. Those schmucks at Sullivan should've been an absolute lock to win this thing with the exception of Wachtell. I smell a vote-rigging conspiracy. Which is fine... just saying.
143, let's wait and see what we get for a spring 2009 bonus. After everyone busted ass in 2008 to make the partners just as much money as we made them in 2007, half-Skadden was a fucking insult. Look for a large litigation midlevel hemorrhage when the numbers are barely four figures.
142- You forgot Chicago-based K&E.
@ 145: no he/she didn't
144, go ahead and leave. Do you think your partners will care? I don't understand the mindset of some associates who believe they are irreplaceable. News flash: you never were and in this economy you certainly aren't now and never will be. You should consider yourself fortunate that you still have a job.
Law.com is maintaining a layoff list. Helpful to track which firms have already cut heads. :)
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202425647706