Should Associates Get Paid While On the Deferral Stipend
As we mentioned earlier today, there is significant variation among firms offering some sort of deferral stipend or public interest externship. Should the money from the firm be contingent upon finding employment in a public interest organization? Should it be paid out monthly or up front? And of course, how much money is on the table.
The difficulty facing firms — and incoming associates who thought they had jobs lined up for the fall — is that management is trying to make the rules up as they go along. Law firms want to be competitive with peer institutions, but each firm has its own bottom line that can’t be ignored.
At the same time, public interest organizations are flush with resumes of highly qualified people who can work for free. But they must also be concerned with the fact that these new recruits likely never wanted to do any public interest work, and will be desperate to go back to their Biglaw jobs (if available) in a year’s time.
And there are still so many options that have not been tried. As one tipster pointed out to us today:
Wouldn’t this be a good time for all these young lawyers to take two years off to serve their country.
You can’t get more “public interest” than serving your country. And if patriotism doesn’t motivate you, just think about how “JAG Corps” will look on your resume when this recession is all over. We’re living in a bizzaro “Hey, you never know” kind of world.
These are all complicated issues, and all of the players seem to be doing the best they can with them. After the jump, we take a look at Ropes & Gray, which is trying to balance the new issues associated with its “new alternatives” program.
Last week, we spoke with some Ropes & Gray sources who were lucky enough to find public interest jobs that would also pay money. They asked if they could accept a public interest salary in addition to Ropes’ New Alternatives program — which is offering $60K for associates who defer for a year. A person they spoke with at the firm initially said it should be fine. But then:
Then 2 days later we were informed … you can’t get paid anything beyond the stipend provided by Ropes.
But after Above the Law contacted Ropes about the apparent discrepancy, a firm spokesperson told us that Ropes would extend the stipend to associates who were otherwise able to secure a paying position. The spokesperson added:
An underlying intent of our New Alternatives Program is to lend a helping hand to nonprofit organizations that are particularly pressed by the current economic environment. That was the rationale behind offering a generous stipend and regular firm benefits. However, if an organization wishes to pay a salary to participating associates from Ropes & Gray, they may accept it.
Should people who are getting paid by their firm also be eligible to take on a salary from their public interest organization?
Before you answer, consider the plight facing 3Ls who had every intention of going into the public sector and no intention of going to Biglaw. I’ve had conversations with a number of 3Ls who went to law school with every intention of working for a service organization. They did not participate in 2L OCI, they don’t have a firm job that they’ve been deferred from. And while they had every intention of taking a much lower salary than many of their law school colleagues, they still thought they would get paid enough to live on.
Now, their jobs are being snapped up by people who can work for free, and live better “for free” than many of the people in the organization. How can they compete for jobs at these cash strapped organizations when a host of Biglaw “temps” don’t even need to be paid? If you’re getting $60K from Ropes, an extra $35K from a public interest job can make up a little bit for the salary you’ve been forced to give up because your firm pushed back your start date. But $35K was also going to be the “living wage” for somebody who had a real passion to defend the indigent or work for a non-profit or whatever.
There are probably no right answers to these situations. Nobody is winning during the “greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression.” But while everybody is trying to figure out what they can do, we also need to keep an eye out for what people should do. Please participate in our reader poll below. People are really trying to figure out how to make these programs work.
Earlier: Public Interest Jobs Won’t Fall Into Your Lap
Associates Scrambling For Public Interest Jobs
Ropes & Gray: Defers Start Dates, Offers ‘New Alternatives’ For All Associates
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This is a very hard question to answer. I suppose in most situations no - but in this I would say yes.
first to say no one cares who is first
Hahahaha. Talk about entitled. In what other profession would ANYONE think they should be paid for doing nothing?
First to say I care a lot about being first
Also, I like the Clifford Chance deferral system. If my offer gets deferred, I'd prefer the option of sitting on my ass for a year.
JAG is an 8 year commitment.
Hope this helps.
3 - Government.
Thank you, 5 -- I can't believe people think you just sign up for JAG and after a few weeks are being yelled at by Generals telling you that yeah, they ordered the code red.
http://eliemystttalspeaks.ytmnd.com/
http://eliemystttalspeaks.ytmnd.com/
http://eliemystttalspeaks.ytmnd.com/
JAG is an 8 year commitment.
Hope this helps.
I think it's awful that deferred associates would have the gall to ask for a salary in addition to their stipend!!! The whole reason for these lay-offs and the economic crisis to begin with is the greediness typified by these sorts of individuals.
I, for one, am hoping that most non-profits will see the advantage of not sheltering these associates for a year -- and give the positions to individuals that truly care about their missions.
One time I saw a Jag doing a Jig. Only in America.
13 = fail
I didn't think you could serve your country for 2 years. I thought basically everybody was subject to recall for at least 8 years after enlistment.
The press has certainly covered enough hardship recall cases, and I have some recollection that JAGs are among them.
Can anyone clarify?
6--Good point indeed.
Kid Rock says I can be a hero if I join the reserves.
This is a stupid poll. Whether the firms "allow" it or not, the only reason non-profits are willing to take on these people is b/c they don't have to pay them. If the non-profits were asked to pay these children "on top" of their firm stipend, they would just hire a non-firm person who really wanted the job.
A STIPEND is a payment!!! The headline basically says "should associates get paid while getting paid."
You meant:
"Should associates get paid while on deferral?"
There are no words...
9 & 10, Not funny at all
If an associate looking for one of these jobs wants an additional stipend, they are going to have to ask for it. And if they have to ask for it, the public interest organization can (and probably will) say no. As for the poor 3Ls: life is tough for everyone. A litigator with 2-3 years experience is going to be more valuable than you and is now cheaper too. Go clerk and come back next year.
OK, I guess it really is time to panic about now. This sure as hell wasn't the 'Change I Can Believe In' I was hoping for when I pulled the Obama lever. Plus jamais.....
You also have to consider that it may be in the best interest of the public service organization to pay the attorney a salary. For example, what if a public service organization takes on 5 attorneys that they would normally be paying $35k/year (total of $175k/year). They save that money this year, but what happens when they are doing budgets in the future and maybe one of their donors sees that they can operate on significantly less money. It may turn out to hurt the public service organization. Of course, this begs the question of why not hire 5 attorneys that aren't getting deferral stipends and pay them a salary and have an additional 5 volunteers that are not getting paid. This would be the ideal situation, but it is entirely possible the organization doesn't have the proper support system for that many people and may not have enough truly active tasks to give everyone a great experience.
Am I gay if watched the movie 'Milk' and like it?
Sure, PI places should favor people who can't to make it their career vs. those that are just camping out for a year, but you forget that plenty of people working PI are doing it out of necessity, not goodwill.
"You can't get more "public interest" than serving your country. And if patriotism doesn't motivate you, just think about how "JAG Corps" will look on your resume when this recession is all over. We're living in a bizzaro "Hey, you never know" kind of world. "
Hey ATL - just what the frack are you getting at here? Is this some sort of statement that somehow being a JAG is a "bizarro" way to start a career? I and many others, in BigLaw, Government and In-House started this way and managed to do just fine, thank you.
Also, for the record, the idea of a private firm paying a military of Government attorney is most likely a violation of numerous ethics regulations unless there is a specific program within an agency. I don't have time to reseach it (I still have a job), but based on reading this board, I'm sure that many an under-employed BigLaw Associates and desperate 3L will have the time to do the work for me and eagerly report their findings to the group.
If you have balls, do USMC JAG.
20, what did you think about 8?
While certainly "taking" these jobs from people originally interested in PI is a problem, one thing worth noting is many of these public interest opportunities would not even exist for those other students unless they had outside funding.
People with firm funding for PI jobs may take a few of the jobs out there, but more than anything it provides free labor and many extra jobs. If a PI group is actually PAYING someone to work for them, my guess is they'll still look for someone with dedication to that kind of work, not a person headed back to big law.
Ropes gave me an in-office interview, but not a callback. Here's to hoping that "alternatives program" is the first step in their dissolution.
The stipend should allow public service organizations to take on double the people then - the folks who really want to work there get their $35k and the biglaw shelters who get their stipend. This would allow the public service org to have staff after all these biglaw associates start work at the firm in a year.
20, what about 13?
Yes they should be able to get paid. If the organization has the money and wants to waste it on temporary workers, that's on them. If it were me, I'd give that temp a desk and tell that bitch to be cool.
Most of the people who "want" to do public interest work in law school are holier-than-thou types who have trust funds to fall back on while looking down their noses at everyone else who "sells out to the man."
Having them replaced by people who might do the work for "free" would be just desserts.
30, you're an idiot. You want every firm that didn't give an offer to dissolve? Get over yourself.
23- the public service org can hire people who plan to stick around and pay them; the biglaw associates who will leave after a year shouldn't be paid anything but their stipends.
Great article.
www.univesityforall.com
27 - Exactly how many readers of ATL do you think could survive basic training?
That JAG comment was absurd. It's not like you just enlist and when they happen to notice that you have a J.D. you become a commissioned officer. JAG is just as tough to get as a firm job in most cases.
I know that JAG was not the point of this post, but it is just another example of Elie's ignorance.
22, well this is certainly 'Change You Can Believe In', isn't it? You should not have been living in la-la land and should have been a tad more realistic in your expectations.
2 year military service would seriously increase the hotness of male Ls and associates. Y'all are kinda pansy-assed right now. Especially in NY.
24, Yes, yes you are.
ugh 41. Just ugh.
34
I must have missed my notice about the trust fund. Because I am trying to find PI work after only doing that all through law school. There are not positions going begging out there. Even for the folks who are allegedly free.
But, yes, I am holier than thou because I take seriously my commitment to provide services to those who cannot afford access to the courts. Unlike you who thinks the end all and be all of a legal job is how many zeros are on your paycheck.
30 - bitter much?
Harvey Milk just inspired this 3L in limbo to give myself a handjob.
The Institute for Justice is actively advertising for deferred biglaw first years. http://www.ij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=568&Itemid=195
The Institute for Justice is actively advertising for deferred biglaw first years. http://www.ij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=568&Itemid=195
44, the people who truly want to promote access to the courts would work at a big law firm for $160k, and then donate $130k (tax-deductible) to hire 4 public interest people to work for poor people. Do the math.
But you are free to work personally in public interest and feel holier than thou for yourself. I'm sure you also voted for Obama to show everyone you're not a racist.
30, I took your callback.
I've got three zeros on my paycheck. $0.00.
31 - You have a lot of public service organizations that are trying to keep the lights on after their foundations got throttled by the market or stolen by some hedge fund "manager."
13 - awesome Scorcese reference.
In other news, I'm ex-biglaw, magna at a top 20 school, tip-top shape. USAF JAG dinged my ass (still waiting on Army).
There are still firms out there that haven't taken a position on the 2009 incoming class yet. What is taking so long? If a firm waits until late-April or early-May to finally alert incoming 1st years that they are deferred, I hope that ATL and others will signal the alarm. I feel bad for the people that have been deferred, but at the very least you guys know what the fuck is going on . . .
-3L possibly headed to BigLaw if that offer is still good . . .
Well, I think if the firms are offering a stipend for the purpose of helping you get by until you can start work, it is none of their business as to what you do with your time or what other money you make.
If they are offering the stipend only to those who obtain and keep Pi employment, then I could see not wanting the recipients to also draw a PI salary.
Except for the firms that are requiring you to do public interest work to receive the stipend, 55.
It's really smart of the Institute for Justice to openly seek deferred 3Ls. They're going to get some good people for free.
JAG is a 3-4 year commitment, not 8.
(3 for army, 4 for navy/AF)
Chuck Norris > Jag > Texas Prestige
5/11:
While technically you are correct that JAG is, overall, an 8-year commitment, only the first 4 years are "full time." After the initial 4-year term, you are a reservist for 4 more years.
Good thing about reserve duty, though, is that you can have a regular civilian job, and your employer, by federal law, cannot fire you if you are called up to active duty, and must accommodate you with respect to your reservist duties.
NASDAQ is up for the year!!! NY to 190!!!
For the firms that are deferring first years for one year - aren't they going to run into the same problem for the current 2Ls that are going to start in 2010 as well? How are they going to play catch-up and have enough work available for an incoming class that is now double in size?
That being said, I cannot imagine a better deal than being paid to travel the world. Sounds pretty sweet to me.
LOL @ 49.
If firms wanted a return on their stipend investment, they'd offer it contingent upon finding employment at a fast food restaurant. That way, their first years will have the humility that comes with serving the dregs of society and won't be such entitled d-bags.
If firms wanted a return on their stipend investment, they'd offer it contingent upon finding employment at a fast food restaurant. That way, their first years will have the humility that comes with serving the dregs of society and won't be such entitled d-bags.
Any person that plans to spend one year at a public service organization before going to take the biglaw job they were promised needs to be upfront about that. Any public service organization looking to fill a permanent position with a deferred biglaw candidate is being silly. They need to go after long-term candidates that are dedicated to the job. If they are looking to fill a one-year temporary position, then I don't see any problem with the addition of the biglaw competitors (things are tough all over), and as long as the public interest organization has no problem with double-dipping for a salary and the stipend, then I see no problem there.
46,
It's not a handjob if you give it to yourself.
ATL should do a survey to see how many 3Ls would defer to September 2010 if the firm offered 1/3 salary with no conditions at all. The suggestion has nothing to do with entitlement; just a means for firms to save more money and their reputation (which really should not be an issue considering the economy). The alternative is to defer anyway and deal with this PI nonsense or defer to January 2010 and still not have any work for everyone.
34: you, my friend, are an idiot.
It's truly disheartening to see quality PI work snatched up by greedy deferred 3Ls, who will no doubt leave at the drop of a hat, all the while barely bridling their sense of entitlement while purporting to serve the public good. The "public interest deferral" option is perhaps the most arrogant of all the law firm tactics - inviting the PI organizations to train their young and useless cadre of know-nothing graduates, only to lose them after the organization has invested a year of resources into their development. The firms are truly clueless if they think this move is seen as little more than shoveling their own staffing burdens off to someone else. A remarkably hollow PR move.
There exist scores of students who willingly took on law school debt, fully knowing they would struggle for years to pay it back, with the intent of going into public interest. Now, they too will suffer because of BigLaw's staffing mistakes.
UGH.
P.S. Not a PI lawyer.
49 - And are you going to give those 4 PI attorneys you're personally funding a lockstep raise every year proportional to your own? Or are you going to fund more attorneys? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
If you go USMC, enjoy your 10 week "clerkship" in lovely Quantico, VA.
70, please tell us why all salaries of employers and employees in the economy have to move in proportion lockstep.
The example is also a hypothetical. It's a vastly more effective alternative for people who love to promote access to the courts. I am not one of those people.
A better question is why not rescind more offers? Are firms really concerned about attracting rising 2Ls for upcoming summer programs these days? Give me a break.
Jag is 4 years for the Army, with the option of "reupping" for an additional 4. It was 3, but has since been increased because training takes six months.
Back in college, I used to bang ugly chicks in order to serve the public interest. It was no big deal.
Jag is 4 years for the Army, with the option of "reupping" for an additional 4. It was 3, but has since been increased because training takes six months.
69 - If these silver spoons took on debt in order to get a $40,000 a year job, there's nothing that can help them.
49's example was ideal. If you are so committed to a cause, instead of spending $200k on Ivy League educations so you can look down your noses at your needy clients at the public interest houses, how about using that expensive and scarce education to work a big money job and then donate to the cause? Your money is a lot more valuable to the organization than your time. Only your arrogance keeps you from seeing that. PI houses can be filled with people from so-so state law schools; those people cannot make $160k a year right out of school and donate it to hire multiple people. T14 law diplomas are wasted on $40k a year jobs.
44 - Sounds like you're not providing any services as you're still looking. Best of luck.
Also, "access to the courts?" I laugh my ass off daily as pro se litigants stumble through the courtroom; they look like they're having the times of their lives too!
-34
You little shit-turds should not get paid for sitting at home and playing nintendo.
ParaLegal.
I personally hope the public interest groups, being not entirely stupid, notice the summer associate position on the resume and auto-ding the big law 3L. What point is there taking on someone who isn't even a lawyer yet (no bar) who will be there for maybe 6 months once they actually become a lawyer?
79--You are an idiot. Why would you hope that a public interest group would not want to take on some free or very cheap labor for a year. Especially when most of these turds are at least better critical thinkers than you are.
ParaLegal
Army JAG is now 4 years. There's no "basic training" like for E-1 privates. JAG "basic" is 2 weeks of stuff you get during 4 years of ROTC. You get commissioned as a First Lieutenant (O-2) right away. After 6 months of additional legal and military training, you get promoted to Captain. And yes, it would be a violation of federal ethics rules to draw a paycheck from biglaw and the military simultaneously.
74/76,
JAGs don't "reup". They are commissioned officers which means there is no enlistment period. They're on activie duty until they (a) resign, (b) retire or (c) are discharged against their will (usually for medical, discipline, or failure to be promoted reasons)
73 - I think they are concerned, not necessarily about 2Ls, but about future recruitment in general. When everything recovers and a student gets multiple offers, the student will and should seriously consider how the law firm handled this recession in making the decision about which one to accept. We all saw firms blow up after the dot-com bust because they were too reliant on the tech industry. Same applies to H&K today; they were too reliant on real estate. The manner in which a firm deals with the recession says a lot; they are either sufficiently diversified to weather any storm or have a lot of cash (and are not over-leveraged) to make it through. Both are indications of a strong firm that would provide better job security for new associates. I personally had a choice between six different firms. If I were going through this process now, I would lean more towards Weil because of what they are offering incoming 3Ls. I would obviously consider other factors, but this one is definitely an important one.
The military JAG corps can be finicky and selective in ways many ATL readers will find shocking. Selection boards can see through someone who has no place in the military or whose self-interest is nakedly obvious, particularly when they see so many boilerplate essays. Air Force is also downsizing and has too many lawyers as it is, so they will be especially selective. so just b/c you were big law material is not a guarantee that your glittering biglaw genius will be embraced by the DOD.
Someone needs to tell 80 that most public interest law firms are much too leanly staffed to put up with a "lawyer" who can't actually practice law.
This isn't just public interest, by the way. Good luck getting a job with any mid or smaller shop without a license.
Someone tell 80 that anything other than a mega-hive can't be bothered to carry "lawyers" who can't actually practice law.
74/76--Since when don't commissioned officers have enlistment contracts?
86 and 85 should be one post. ATL said they failed on 85, an obvious and malicious lie.
- 85
22, well this is certainly 'Change You Can Believe In', isn't it? You should not have been living in la-la land and should have been a tad more realistic in your expectations.
87 - Since forever.
I'm not sure how a place can know.
Most of the people I know that wanted to do Public Interest when they graduated still took jobs their 2L summers. You just can't say no to the money.
Sure you can ask the 3L why they want to work at your non-profit, but you really can't assume that they aren't genuine b/c they worked for a firm as a 2L. Everybody works for a firm as a 2L regardless of if they want to do that in the long term.
58 & 76 - you are correct re: the active duty requirement but the total commitment equals 8 years and that is why they are able to call you back.
87 - enlisting and a commission are apples and oranges . . .
27 - If you have balls, you'd do USMC oh -three (03)
How many of these f-g-t BIGLAW outcasts would be accepted by JAG (exception Coast Guard JAG)?
JAG isn't "real" military, but it's still a far cry from any V100 firm.
94 - USMC JAG requires full basic training.
USMC JAG's are marine riflemen first and always, lawyers occasionally. I've heard anecdotally of one marine JAG who led an assault into an Iraqi town after replacing the original line officer on short notice.
Army JAG's - "Soldier first, lawyer always." Army is trying to emulate USMC model by requiring active duty & reserve JAGs to complete Basic Officer Leader Course alongside all new Army officers. They're still POG's, but now they've done 7 weeks of infantry-type training.
I doubt most ATL readers and stereotypical biglaw weenies would be able to adjust to Army life. Weight control is a big deal. You are government property. You get paid peanuts. The officer corps is very conservative (in every respect). Your focus is on things other than yourself and your salary. Integrity matters, usually (and if you forget, you go to Fort Leavenworth in shackles). Sodomy, dueling, and malingering are punishable offenses.
@ 91 You can ask them "did you receive an offer" and "did you accept your offer."
Public interest interviews tend to be pretty intense. Because of what they do, they are rarely worried about scaring you away.
Yeah, USMC JAG is no joke. My buddy was in for 9 months before he cracked a law book. It's OCI, followed by 6 months of weapons school. You are one of 5 "law contracts" in your unit - the other guys are regular line officers, i.e., 22-year old D1 athletes.
I wish I had the balls to do it, but I'm honestly not sure I have them at this point (which I say as an Army grunt-turned-PE lawyer).
85: Word. The senior attorneys at PIs don't have the time to coddle the newbies. They look for people who can hit the ground running, who have some knowledge of that particular field that will lessen the learning curve. If you're a risk adverse person drawn towards the Mother Teat of Biglaw, they will see right through it, regardless of your "stats."
I'm an Army JAG- have been since early '06.
Army JAGs now do their Basic Officer Leadership Course mixed in with all the other branches- infantry, armor, artillery, etc. There is a brief two week or so period at the beginning where that entering JAG class gets some military background training to allow those who didn't do ROTC, have prior service, or attend West Point to get acclimated. After ten weeks of classroom training at the Army JAG School on the UVA law school campus, it's off to traditional military training in the hellholes of Fort Benning or Fort Sill.
I deployed to Iraq for over a year in the middle of the surge, was under fire on a few occasions, and did a variety of non-legal duties in addition to my JAG responsibilities. It's a no-joke military career.
I personally know JAGs who have been wounded in action, some seriously, and we've had about a dozen or so personnel from Army JAG KIA in Afghanistan and Iraq, including two senior leadership members whose helicopter was shot down.
As for the commitment, it is 4 years active duty and 4 years reserve duty. However, if you end up staying on for more than 4 years active duty, your reserve time is reduced by a corresponding amount.
Retention bonuses are available to those who reach the 4 year active duty mark and who wish to commit to addtional years of active duty. Around year 8, if you are still active, the Army will send you back to the JAG School, where you'll earn an LLM, the only military LLM program with ABA accreditation. While doing that, you pay no tuition and draw your full pay and benefits during that year of study. At that point in your career, based on seniority, you are pulling well over six figures annually.
It's a competitive application process that takes into account intellectual ability, physical fitness, temperament, and sincerity of desire to serve the nation.
Just wanted to answer 15, 74/76's question and add on to 87 and 100. 100, has basically hit all the wickets. I was a USMC line officer who was offered the funded law program (USMC will pay for law school if you give them more years as a JAG). I decided that I wanted to get shot at or be a lawyer, not both; I got out and went to law school on my own dime. When I was in, I deployed with JAGs. They are no joke. If you think you're going to be Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, guess again. The JAGs lived in the dirt and gort shot at with the rest of us.
The commitment is 4 years active and indefinite reserve time after that. Enlisted service members are automatically discharged upon hitting their End of Service (EOS) obligation. The EOS is any combination of active and reserve time, although the usual minimum active duty time is four years. Officers serve at the pleasure of the president and are enrolled (not enlisted) in the service it's from an old tradition: lists were temporary, rolls were permanent). After the EOS period (8 year mark), an officer can request to resign his/her commission. If accepted, he/she is discharged; if not, he/she remains subject to recall until the resignation is accepted or until he/she retires. If he/she successfully resigns his/her commission before the EOS, he/she becomes a private for the remaining time until the EOS (basically, he/she gives up the rank, but is still in service).
Earlier posts were absolutely correct. Marine officers are rifle platoon commanders first and foremost. Training is ten weeks of OCS (boot camp for officers), then an additional 6 months of basic infantry commander school (every Marine officer, regardless of specialty goes through this half-year hell-hole of hazing). The lawyers and pilots hated it more than the rest of us. After that, the JAGs go to JAG school and get to re-live law school.
For all you JAGs who responded, Semper Fidelis. 100, check the regs and make sure you proactively resign when your 8-year mark hits. Lots of my friends thought they were out automatically after 8 and got recalled to active duty. I've heard about it happening to people who had been out for over a decade. Hey, we serve at the pleasure of the president. My resignation (started active duty 1998) has yet to be accepted...
Just wanted to answer 15, 74/76's question and add on to 87 and 100. 100, has basically hit all the wickets. I was a USMC line officer who was offered the funded law program (USMC will pay for law school if you give them more years as a JAG). I decided that I wanted to get shot at or be a lawyer, not both; I got out and went to law school on my own dime. When I was in, I deployed with JAGs. They are no joke. If you think you're going to be Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, guess again. The JAGs lived in the dirt and gort shot at with the rest of us.
The commitment is 4 years active and indefinite reserve time after that. Enlisted service members are automatically discharged upon hitting their End of Service (EOS) obligation. The EOS is any combination of active and reserve time, although the usual minimum active duty time is four years. Officers serve at the pleasure of the president and are enrolled (not enlisted) in the service it's from an old tradition: lists were temporary, rolls were permanent). After the EOS period (8 year mark), an officer can request to resign his/her commission. If accepted, he/she is discharged; if not, he/she remains subject to recall until the resignation is accepted or until he/she retires. If he/she successfully resigns his/her commission before the EOS, he/she becomes a private for the remaining time until the EOS (basically, he/she gives up the rank, but is still in service).
Earlier posts were absolutely correct. Marine officers are rifle platoon commanders first and foremost. Training is ten weeks of OCS (boot camp for officers), then an additional 6 months of basic infantry commander school (every Marine officer, regardless of specialty goes through this half-year hell-hole of hazing). The lawyers and pilots hated it more than the rest of us. After that, the JAGs go to JAG school and get to re-live law school.
For all you JAGs who responded, Semper Fidelis. 100, check the regs and make sure you proactively resign when your 8-year mark hits. Lots of my friends thought they were out automatically after 8 and got recalled to active duty. I've heard about it happening to people who had been out for over a decade. Hey, we serve at the pleasure of the president. My resignation (started active duty 1998) has yet to be accepted...
102; do you have an email i could reach you at? I've been out for two years now and I am gearing up for JAG in '10 March board, hopefully with the army. I'd love to ask you some questions.
102, thanks for your service. Yes, it is essential to resign the commission at the 8-year mark to avoid unwanted recall. That hasn't been a huge issue from my experience since there are so many Reserve and National Guard JAGs who volunteer for mobilization needs, but as we know, you can never be too safe when it comes to the military bureaucracy.
-100- Army JAG
104: do you have an email I could reach you at?
104: do you have an email I could reach you at?
103,
You can reach me through the Army JAG recruiting site. Look for contact info for the person assigned to University of Chicago/Loyola Law.
107. Got it and sent.
102, I'm afraid you are off on a few points:
1. EOS= End of Obligated Service. The basic contract is 8 years total with 4 active duty. Pilot contracts are modified after the completion of flight training. There are various educational oppurtunites that might alter the basic contract obligations as well.
2. Any officer on a basic contract can resign his regular commission after 4 years active duty. If he does so, he is obligated to accept a reserve commission for the remaining EOS time (4 years.) The remaining 4 years can be served in the SMCR, IRR, AR, or any other form of reserve duty. Soon after he transfers to reserve duty, the reserve officer will recieve a letter from MOBCOM asking if he wishes to be auto-dropped from the rolls after the end of his EOS. Don't ignore this letter! If you choose not to be auto-dropped, you are still free to resign your reserve commission after the completion of your EOS. If an officer has served 8 years or more on active duty, he is not obligated to accept a reserve commission after he resigns his regular commission.
3 Point 2 is modified a little by promotions. By accepting a promotion to Captain, you are agreeing to serve an addtional 2 years active duty.
4 The MARSEPSMAN requires you to submit your resignation at least 4 but not more than 14 months prior to your desired date of seperation. I suspect this is where you have run afoul. Additionally, you cannot submit a resignation letter within 2 years of accepting PCS orders.
5. Semper Fidelis.
While all this JAG talk is fascinating (who doesn't love a man in uniform!), can we return to the point at hand? Recruiting is going to be screwed up for years due to all of these deferrals and whatnot.
Also, for all the posters who claim that it's impossible to have a genuine interest in public interest work AND biglaw, that's ridiculous. Some schools don't have PI forgiveness programs, some newly-minted grads still have undergraduate loans to service...there are many legitimate reasons why one might want to do a stint in biglaw prior to turning toward a service-type job. Honestly--how are they mutually exclusive?
While all this JAG talk is fascinating (who doesn't love a man in uniform!), can we return to the point at hand? Recruiting is going to be screwed up for years due to all of these deferrals and whatnot.
Also, for all the posters who claim that it's impossible to have a genuine interest in public interest work AND biglaw, that's ridiculous. Some schools don't have PI forgiveness programs, some newly-minted grads still have undergraduate loans to service...there are many legitimate reasons why one might want to do a stint in biglaw prior to turning toward a service-type job. Honestly--how are they mutually exclusive?
12- you are a d**k. Where did you learn economics at, harvard? moron.
12- you are a d**k. Where did you learn economics at, harvard? moron.
12- you are a d**k. Where did you learn economics at, harvard? moron. Whose paying taxes disproportionate to their income to support you?
Welcome to "Change You Can believe In" !
I've always thought that you could accomplish more public good by working at a big firm for a few years, getting training, and becoming financially independent while leveraging the huge resources of the firm for pro bono matters. After a few years, you could always leave to do PI work in a more useful capacity (since you know what you're doing).
On topic, I don't see why anyone cares if the PI organizations choose to pay someone on deferral. If they think that is the best way to spend their resources, that's their decision. I don't see anyone posting about how unfair it is to current 2L's going into summer programs at firms that pushed the first years back a full year that their incoming classes have been doubled in size. Don't be surprised if firms with a one year deferral don't give all of their summers this year permanent offers.