Perhaps it would not sound as bad if the US firms started calling them redundancy consultations, like the UK firms do.

thought Paul Hastings had conducted layoffs:
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2009/02/nationwide_layoff_watch_paul_h_3.php

Good report. Munger Tolles might be worth mentioning with the CA firms that have not done layoffs, as least as much as Irell and Manella is.

I am a partner in a 25 attorney boutique firm. Not that it matters but I graduated from a top 40 law school with an average GPA and no law review (which looking back is a complete waste of time unless you want to be a law professor or clerk for a high court). I live a comfortable life. Mortgage, student loans and credit cards are paid for and I go on 4 vacations a week to anywhere I want (just came back from partying hard for a week in Dubai). Here is my analysis of what is happening in the legal spectrum. BigLaw is dying. Clients don't want to pay $700 an hour for bloated and lazy partners and overpaid associates. This economy is the death knell of the billable hour. I recently started outsourcing document review to brilliant barristers in India who are willing to work for less than minimum wage in the U.S. Thus far, my clients have been happy, I leave the office early, which enables me to enjoy a great life. I clerked one summer at BigLaw and hated it. First year associates lived at the firm. I didn't get an offer to return but looking back BigLaw did me a huge favor. As I read about all these layoffs I am saddened that a generation of lawyers will be hurt by this economy and the way BigLaw operates. If you graduated law school in the past 3 years and are in law school, I am sorry to tell you that you are screwed. Law school loans will be a life long burden to carry and before the current onslaught is over, 1st year salaries will be adjusted to about $115,000 at select BigLaw firms. If you thought the competition for jobs at BigLaw was bad yesterday, it will be worse tomorrow. HLS, law review, order of coif won't guarantee anything. What I can't really wait for is when partners will begin scheming against each other for perceiving that the each other is not carrying their weight. That is when you'll see a dozen sharks mauling each other for scraps. I will sit back and enjoy the bloodfest. Michael Douglas said "greed is good" in the 80s. This isn't the 80s folks. The gravy train and the lines of coke at the firms' parties are over.

edit on post number 5. I go on 4 vacations a year. I will be on permanent vacation within the next 3 years though.

Sad that you make so little that you have to keep working through partner.

no more student loans

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46657437878

HOW ABOUT A POST ABOUT THE LATE START DATES AT CRAVATH (OCTOBER 26th is effectively November!)... and the two other options are NOvember and JANUARY!

No it isn't the end of the world, but I think it's a pretty solidly newsworthy bit of info. Skadden's first start date is mid-October too.

Elie, please do a chart breaking out numbers of first years laid off. It's not fair for firms to can half their first year class and then try to minimize the damage by lumping them in with total layoffs. Everyone knows first year layoffs are the most damaging to a firm.

7

Don't be sad for me. I actually love working in the legal profession. I tried semi-retirment a couple of years ago but there are only so many beaches in the world and nights filled with screwing exotic women while eating and drinking to one's delight before it gets monotonous. If you can afford it, I recommend you visit "Viking Island" off of Domican Republic. Best week of my life was spent there.

I may not earn 2.5 million a year but I live very comfortably on half of that and when I die people will remember me for the great life that I lived and not say, "well he was a hard worker" or "he made his momma proud when he became partner at BigLaw."

5, I see that ding still hurts. Seriously, how shitty must you be to get no offered?

Those biglaw partners and laid off lawyers will soon be taking YOUR work, so I wouldn't feel too good if I were you.

5 - greed is good. Go read Atlas Shrugged and learn something. If you think you can sit back and just relax while things unfold in front of you then you don't understand how the world works. Sorry.

13, greed is not "good." "Greed is good" is a ridiculous oversimplification.

Ruh Roh. You just listed my fall on-campus interview schedule...

11, foad

8=I disagree that forgiving student loan obligations will stimulate the economy. It rather promotes fiscal irresponsibility and why should taxpayers have to fund the education of people who made ill advised choices in pursuing $$$ by studying certain expensive careers like the law? You are living in a crack pipe dream if you think Congress will ever forgive student loans.

I second 13! NY to 190 4 'evah!!!!!!!!!!!

#5 is lying flame. the outsourcing firms charge a lot more than the minimum wage in the US for indian attorneys.

>>>there are only so many beaches in the world and nights filled with screwing exotic women while eating and drinking to one's delight before it gets monotonous.

Transaltion: I'm a fat, recovering alcoholic who got herpes from a hooker in Bangladesh.

12

Yeah it really hurt. I cried my eyes out until no tears could come out. As far as Biglaw taking my clients? That is laughable as I have been taking BigLaw clients one at a time into my practice. These clients are resentful that Biglaw sodomized them in legal fees for years.

In fact, my bankruptcy dept. has been picking up for some time and courts will authorize my fees instead of scaling them down like they will do for Biglaw. Some greed is good. Blind greed is just...blinding.

21, biglaw will lose clients until it goes under or lowers it's fees. In either case, you're going to be competing with biglaw people, who are smarter than you and better lawyers. No matter what you lose.

17 it wasn't irresponsible to take out those loans when I had a 160k job lined up. I didn't know that I was going to get laid off as a first year along with half my class and 87 other people from my office.

You can either have indebted professionals hurt by the economy flee the country or off themselves, or you can forgive the debt. Either way it's not getting repaid.

If you think I'm going to slave away for peanuts until I'm 75 to barely pay this off before collapsing in my rented room in Jackson Heights, you're dreaming.

Besides, you don't seem to get the economic implications at all. As long as large numbers of people are saddled with debt they'll never be able to repay, the economy is not going to improve because consumer spending is so important to our economy.

Suggesting Rand as a survival strategy? A philosophy of permanent victimhood at the hands of the unwashed masses justifying any and all actions taken for someone's desires ain't the way to survive. Drug dealers and other criminals may rationalize this method of "survival", but they really don't do all that hot at the "surviving" part.

Besides, Rand herself was supported by other people from cradle to grave.

If everyone lived on the parastic philosophy of "Fuck you, I've got mine", then those who think they're so "brilliant" in thinking this way will find that they're told "Fuck you, I've got mine" by everyone they expect to help them.

19

Look harder buddy. If you take the easy way out by not searching deeper, you will get raped by most outsourcing firms. I found a couple in India and in the Philippines that charge paltry fees for good quality of work, even better than most law graduates who went to school here.

20

Wishful thinking. Your idea of a hooker is narrow minded. I don't expect someone like you to be familiar with the pedigree of a high class hooker such as the ones former Gov. Spitzer enjoyed. Keep whacking off to online porn while you live vicariously through others.

25 is fat ugly flame. Get a life.

22, 12, - Do you guys really think that corporations who can afford legal bills in the tens of millions per month are the ONLY corporations who need legal representation??

And of the corps who could afford those kinds of bills, just how much longer do you think these GCs can keep convincing CEOs and boards to keep paying them? There will be some who slash that legal expenditure budget. Not every corp out there needs years-long mega paper litigation or merger due diligence that lasts a year or longer. Not everyone out there needs a legal wheel reinvented. Not everyone out there is in a situation in which lawyering-by-desperation is called for.

There's demand out there, dudes. And that demand STILL pays quite well.

Besides, 22 and 12, which GCs of multi-national corps do YOU know personally who will be hiring you?

21

The day that happens, BigLaw won't be Biglaw anymore. It will be a peer competitor of mine. God forbid. I know many partners at BigLaw that are plotting and scheming to make lateral moves or just open shop while taking away portable business. Remember Pennie & Edmonds? Formed in the 1800s. Largest IP law firm in nation, next to Fish & Neave at the time. One partner leaves, takes his client list and firm folds within a year. This will be happening all over and when it does, I have a good connect in India and the Philippines so I don't expect these guys to keep up with me. It is sort of like a drug dealer war. THe dealer with the best connect and supply will always come out on top, regardless of how much muscle (gun or brain) your competitior has.

28, you were fucking no offered when everyone gets an offer. I find it hard to believe that you'll be able to compete with smart people.

Among partners in smaller firms the nation over, I wouldn't be surprised if MOST of them never received BigLaw summer associateships or offers from a BigLaw firm.

5/28 already said that he wasn't among the big school name/big grades crowd. However, even for those who are, it's not just grades and school names taken into consideration. Personality matters a great deal. Malleability is at a premium.

The type of personality who goes out seeking his own competitive client base would tend to be someone who wasn't all that malleable when he was younger either.

29-why the vulgarity? Are you worried? Or you just have that much chutzpah to show the world what a classless individual that you are? Offers don't define me you little turd. Memo to your small brain: your degrees and accomplishments are shyte in the real world. I can't wait to start interviewing and turning down people like you when you come begging me for a job. Maybe I can hire you as my mouthpiece in rap duel but I am afraid an innercity kid could shut you up in under 10 seconds so fail on that job.

28, what good is an offer from biglaw these days when it gets revoked?

"... so that pretty much leaves Gibson Dunn; Irell & Manella; Manatt, Phelps & Phillips; Paul Hastings; and Quinn Emanuel ..."

err, Munger Tolles has not laid off a single person, which is better than the firms listed here

*****Skadden has started layoffs. Expect mass stealth layoffs. Assume other NYC firms will follow.

17 - STUPID HUMAN, let a more intelligent being explain:

The student loan racket is analogous to the sub-prime racket. Borrowers (the least savvy entity in the equation) relied on false and misleading data from educational institutions. Then lenders, in collusion with law schools over-valuing their service (the most savvy entities in the equation) foolishly over-lent to anyone who could sign their name on the dotted line.

It is the equivalent of a bank lending 200k to someone to buy a house valued at 100k, while both the lender and seller colluded to obscure its real value. The buyer relied on representations made to him. When the buyer is suddenly unable to repay the loan, who should bear the burden of loss?

Fuck You Sallie Mae.

Stealth layoffs have been going on for a while now...
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=936716&mc=16&forum_id=2

Eventually, though, something has to give. The corporate departments in my NY firm (and every peer firm I know of) are basically dead. We have hundreds of idle associates watching Hulu and working on pro bono projects to pass the time. I don't know how the partners can keep armies of generously compensated attorneys on the payoll when they're not billing...

Mind you, many of the NY firms lost 20-30% in PPP last year, and that was with fairly robust business through October. This year will be abysmal!

Prepare for a bloodbath.

Wow, 5,31,etc, I am very impressed by you and your apparent brilliance. How insecure do you need to be to continually bleat about great you are, how biglaw sucks and is dying (very insightful by the way, I've never heard anyone say that before . . .), how much you make, how many vacations you take and then defending yourself for 2 hours on a legal blog on a Saturday afternoon?

Man has this blog turned to shit...

Layoffs or no layoffs, QUINN SUCKS.

5 - You are an idiot. Period. Now go get a life.

35 - It's not really the equivalent of subprime lending.

While student loan borrowers may be less sophisticated than other borrowers, they also remain the highest risk of lending. Student loans can never be secured by the asset gained by the student.

So, subprime lending for housing had SOME reasoning behind it to the lenders. If the borrower tanked, the asset (at the time of the loan) would not. The lender woud take an asset that (at the time of the loan) they could sell for a higher price.

The borrower in a student loan never loses their asset unless they don't complete the degree aimed for. Once earned, it's earned forever. Once the knowledge is gained, it's in your head forever.

That asset will ALWAYS appreciate your labor over what it was prior to your lending.

Now...the risk you took in betting on a sale of labor that happens to very FEW law students, that was your call to make. All your current unemployment as a BigLaw lawyer means is that your income as a lawyer will be lower than what you expected it to be in your first years out of school.

That doesn't mean your income as a lawyer will be lower than the median income or a college grad at all.

I agree with 38 --- Quinn wishes it was a CA contender ... all they have is Tammy Jih

I am pretty sure that Manatt, Irell, and Paul Hastings have had stealth layoffs.

37,

If you judge greatness by where one gets a law degree, then I am not great. In life I have learned that the best weapon I have is that people have underestimated me to their detriment. I enjoy seeing my so called superior and smarter peers board plane and ride coach while I sip on mimosas and dine a la carte on my way to some legal conference. I admit, I got into this business because of money but money doesn't keep me going. Seeing biglaw suffer these days has put a twinkle in my eye no doubt. I will continue to read with glee about biglaw's impending demise. I have already bought land in belize, costa rica and greece. When the shyte hits the fan in this country and it will, run for the hills and pack plenty of canned goods and ammo. We'll see then how much your biglaw creds will save you.

10 - "Everyone knows first year layoffs are the most damaging to a firm."

You must be joking, or you're a first year with delusions of grandeur.

You need your hand held and your ass wiped just to complete a time entry, When you finally get to do something with a document, the ablutions must start in earnest by those with time and knowledge invested in the profession.

And you probably think you're hot shit because you graduated from law school.

43--You must really be petty and insecure to revel in someone else's misfortune. I feel sorry for you. You have no soul.

44 you've completely missed the point you stupid ass. kill yourself.

40 - All the more reason lenders should go choke on a bag of schlongs.

They overvalued an insecure asset. Knowing full well that even in good economic times, the value bestowed by law schools (especially out of T-14) was on average lower than the value of the loan, the lenders should have restricted credit pushing the cost of education downward to a true market level. Instead the rampant over-lending led to over-inflated tuition, and that truth is now being magnified by the tanking economy.

40 what a completely worthless, long winded analysis. The point is that I signed up for this debt in exchange for a 160k job, and making such a bargain was not irresponsible.

What the fuck do I care what the average lawyer or college grad makes.

35-So what you are asking for is a bailout on student loan defaults? Hell no. You made a bad choice just like all the other real estate speculators. Now live with the bad decision you made. Don't boohoo me about the bad economy and that it doesn't pay to be a lawyer anymore. You took a gamble and lost. Fine default on your loans but Uncle Sam will seize what little you have and garnish your wages until you are 6 feet under.

48 - Why wouldn't you care what the average lawyer makes since you are now a lawyer saddled with large educational debt.

That debt DID gain you an asset that now boosts your income to above the average person's. It DID gain you value.

You signed up to gain a legal education. You got one. It can't be taken away from you now. Where's the need for the bailout?

47 - Lower than the value of the loan?? Are you nuts?

Do you REALLY think that lawyers have a lifetime earning value of only 100-150,000 dollars above the average college grad's lifetime earnings??

The value added to labor FAR surpasses the value of the loan. Unless, of course, the anticipated retirement age was 28.

45-Biglaw took my soul away.

Anyone hearing about layoffs out of DPW?

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=946450&mc=19&forum_id=2#11076204

49 = Pissed off b/c he just paid off his student loans and will miss the bailout boat.

HAHA [waves back at 49 standing on the dock crying]

Puh-leez - I can't believe that any of you idiots are arguing with this flame.

For the record, Congress took care of deadbeat students from using bankruptcy to discharge their student loans. Unless you are in a wheelchair for life and possess skills to only sell pencils on a street corner, the student loans will follow you for the rest of your life. Be a responsible person, adjust your diet to exclusively eat raamen noodles, stop whinning, get a honest job and pay back your debt. As a taxpayer I am tired of hearing bailouts. Now we have to hear them from whiny spoiled kids who gambled on law school and fell for the hook line and sinker ploy of the $160K a year job? They can all burn in hell but before getting there they can suffer while alive by making sacrifices in living up to paying their debt.

49 - That's an idiotic argument. The Feds are bailing out the banks, who voluntarily made the same poor loans/decisions that law school students made. They all took the same bailouts. Why shouldn't law students get them as well. Maybe not FULL bailouts, but at least in some part. I don't see this as a huge impossibility.

What I've been finding is that some associates in biglaw are openly competing with support staff in order to beef up their hours, further driving the costs up to clients. There are $160+K ivy league graduates out there billing a lot of time for faxing, collating, duplicating and trying to do fancy things in Word and Powerpoint when they could easily turn it over to someone who can do it better and cheaper.

No wonder clients are fed up with biglaw. It really is bloated and inefficient.

51 - "The value added to labor FAR surpasses the value of the loan. Unless, of course, the anticipated retirement age was 28."

----------------
OR a person anticipated wanting to do something vaguely meaningful with their lives (i.e. NOT work in BigLaw, you know, like 90% of the profession ends up doing).

54,
you believe in the student loan bailout. I have the williamsburg bridge on sale. can you please pass what you are smoking?

53,

I have. Come Monday it's going to be bloody.

57, please learn more about the "fed" bailouts and the difference between a loan and a loan forgiveness. If you want to use AIG as an analogy, you are free to ask the government to forgive your student loans in exchange for owning 79.9% of your body and the rest of your life.

59, if that non-monetary compensation is so "meaningful" and important to you, then the (non-monetary) value that your law school education added to your labor far surpasses the value of the loan.

-- not 51

57-I was unaware that the Coalition of Law Students/Graduates of America had a powerful lobby with millions of dollars in its war chest to influence Congress over the well entrenched prerogatives of the banking industry? Funny how law students/graduates/young lawyers want mercy from the banks that gave them loans for their education but have no hesitation to overbill them at biglaw.

59 - Even then, a lawyer (employed as a lawyer) in whichever field chosen would have a lifetime earnings higher than the average college grad in the same field.

That difference would be more than 100-150,000 dolalrs. Therefore, the value added to the labor is greater than the value of the loan.

Now, NOT being a lawyer at all is the borrower's choice and hardly the lender's liability in this equation.

64, that is complete bullshit. you work for sallie mae or a TTT law school?

60 - I just toked a giant spleef of HOPE followed by a fat line of CHANGE.

I am flying high, biatch!! Oh, and why buy the bridge when I can just live under it rent free? Shanty towns are becoming quite vogue I hear. Expect that trend to continue if debtors are left holding the bag for creditor ineptitude and greed.

Individuals - grad degree or no - don't lend operating money to the nation's major corporations. Banks do.

That bank bail-out didn't happen because Congress "felt sorry" for them.

49, FOAD you bitter bald little man

Who is John Galt?

42 - From where have you heard anything about stealth layoffs at Irell? I havn't heard any such claims yet.

Dear whiney, self-absorbed BIGLAW bitches...

Whaaaa...I can't pay my student loans without a $160K job.... whaaaaa

Welcome to how the other 90% live....

Paul Hastings has been doing layoffs on a rolling basis. Article is erroneous.

49 - When you garnish my wages, could you please make it one of those cool looking tomatoes sliced to resemble a blooming flower? I really like those.

Oh, also. Blood, stone, you know the rest.

look for severance packages from biglaw to get smaller in the upcoming months. the least they can do is give you a tube of ky lube on the way out.

I'm going to laugh so hard when Obama and the dem congress FORCE 49 to pay off my student loans.

49 is going to pay, whether he likes it or not.

71, now that the top ten 10% are being hit, there will be student loan relief. It wasn't worth it when only you TTTs were suffering.

75-You have no inside track on politics. Who do you think put Obama in power? You really think he will bail you out? Talk about the clueless generation.

53/61 - I've heard it about David Polk too. 40-50 NY attorneys.

77 what are you talking about? Poors put Obama into office and now he's going to help us by forcing you to pay off our student loans.

Thanks for the help broseph!

66, you're saying the creditor is the one with "ineptitude and greed"?

Gee, how about the law school student loan borrower, who thought a $150k loan and three years of median grades was the meal ticket for $160k for life. If it was that easy, why isn't everyone doing it? Oh wait, everyone did, and they saturated the market so the $160k job wasn't so guaranteed after all.
Maybe the "naive" borrowers with fancy college degrees should have realized that you can put a JD-degree-lipstick on a pig and you'll still have a pig who couldn't get a decent job after college and didn't know what to do with his/her life. And let's not talk about their "ineptitude".

79-Do you know who controls the FED? Do your homework. What you are seeing right now is a silent class war. If you are a Rothschild or a Rockefeller, you will be ok. If you are not, messiah Obama's ark won't be big enough for you when the storm hits.

81 BO knows who his base is. Please shut your mouth.

Here is a tip for 1st or 2nd year law students: Drop out now! Taking out more loans will only put you deeper in the hole. Swtich to nursing and learn real skills like learning how to change a person out of their depends diaper. I am getting too many resumes from ivy leaguers that are in panic mode. Here is another tip: Join the Peace Corps. and make something meaningful out of your pityful existence.

Glad I'm a bankruptcy lawyer.

You guys know that you can pay a 1500/mo loan payment on 100K gross - even at single rate no deps - and still afford a pretty high rent in NY, yes?

And if it's 75K gross, then the rent has to come down, which is still doable in many decent neighborhoods, just not Manhattan.

Or...are those crying the "no 160K" blues people who have never earned any annual salary, so you all don't know what it actually buys?

In the '80s, AIDS slammed the door on free sex.
In 2009, the infirm economy has slammed the door on the nuts of law students.

signed, an out of work former legal recruiter

85, yes to the last question.
They'll probably die of shock when they learn that median household income in Manhattan is $65k.

And the median household in Manhattan has 2.6 persons.

49/80 - Keep talking EARTH MAN. Each idiotic word brings *your* world closer to ANNIHILATION.

The end is nigh for the money drunk rich blaming the poor and middle class for the disastrous economy. Even your frail human brain should be able to grasp that the pyramid scheme created by Sallie & TTT schools is about to come crashing down!

9,

I have my skadden start date--September 14th. Right on time, as usual.

~incoming Skadden first-year

89 : storm is brewing. take the buyout if offered.

5,

What practice area does your firm focus on? And what advice can you give a law student or 2005-09 law grad?

I will kill self before I toil for 50 years for nothing.

-suicidal laid off 1st years

ps. Fuck you biglaw and sallie mae!

-suicidal laid off first year

dear editors, please find out whether the cali firm layoffs are actually in the cali offices of those firms. as you know, most of these firms expanded aggressively on the east coast to try and capture some of the corporate work during the boom. now that there is much less work -- and what's left is going to the traditional NY powerhouses -- i imagine most of the layoffs are a retraction of the east coast expansion.

please confirm. thx

94, this is correct for a certain big 3 LA firm. 89 laid off in NYC alone. 32 first years.

Rand was all about objectivity until Nathanial Brandon left her.

95 or anyone else, what about O'Melveny New York?

95 here. I don't know anything about the situation at O'Melveny. I am thinking back to an old ATL article though that makes me think things are bad there.

I believe 5 - with typos like that, its no wonder he got rejected from any major firm.

49 - Garnish away. The only joy of being a law student is learning what "judgment proof" means and knowing without BigLaw you're it.

99 - its = it's. I love it when the grammar police accidently shoot themselves.

Tard.

101 - accidentaly = accidentally. This is getting very meta.

102, 101 misspelled "accidentally" as "accidently" and not as "accidentaly" (which is how you quoted him). Very meta indeed.

*is judgment proof*

-suicidal laid off 1st year

Orrick's layoffs hit the NY and DC offices pretty good.

eldar Paper, Mr. Cromwell, Teldar Paper has 33 different vice presidents each earning over 200 thousand dollars a year. Now, I have spent the last two months analyzing what all these guys do, and I still can't figure it out. One thing I do know is that our paper company lost 110 million dollars last year, and I'll bet that half of that was spent in all the paperwork going back and forth between all these vice presidents. The new law of evolution in corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven deals that I've been involved with, there were 2.5 million stockholders who have made a pretax profit of 12 billion dollars. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much.

"Formed in the 1800s. Largest IP law firm in nation, next to Fish & Neave at the time. One partner leaves, takes his client list and firm folds within a year. This will be happening all over and when it does, I have a good connect in India and the Philippines so I don't expect these guys to keep up with me."

-

While your attempt to explain to others the effects of supply and demand on cost is admirable, I don't think you have fully grasped it yet.

(And while it's *possible* a partner at a small firm is pulling in $1.25 million a year, it is not exactly common and is at least a little suspect.)

Anybody else get a Vault survey Associate form for their firm?

My friend got survey form that is due by Thursday, 3/12, and rumors are going around that layoffs will be on Friday the 13th.

For all the douchebags that point out mistakes in grammar that troll this website, GET A FUCKING LIFE RETARDS! THIS IS A FUCKING BLOG NOT A FUCKING BRIEF. HERE'S A SUGGESTION: GET OFF YOUR MOTHERFUCKING COUCH AND GO FUCK SOMEONE OR SOMETHING, BELIEVE ME YOU NEED TO GET LAID. What a bunch of whiny motherfuckin bitches...

108, at my firm, the vault surveys were due the day b/4 layoffs. tricky bastards.

Just curious about the "severance packages" being offered by various firms. Are firms continuing pay for __ months; providing a lump sum payment equal to __ months pay; or paying people for __ months OR until the individual finds another job. I have heard my firm is offering the last of these, which doesn't really sound like true severance to me.

*begs Amtrak to stop Acela service during GULC's on-campus interview week*

91-

No. 5 here. My firm specializes in business litigation, criminal law (mostly white collar) and bankruptcy (Chapter 11). Corporate law has flatlined for the time being but my firm did have a small corporate department which I have turned into regulatory admin. law (mostly dealing with transportation agencies). It took a few years and the right mix of people to develop my practice and I earn decent revenue, no where near BigLaw, but I am not complaining.

Here is my advice to those who find themselves in the current predictament of layoffs and the bad economy. If you have just been offered money to work at a public interest firm. Take the money and work a year in public interest. You have a golden opportunity to learn how to love the law from an early point in your career rather than grow to resent it at a BigLaw environment. You will notice there are some very crude folks that have commented on my original post. I ignore trolls like that yet these are the types of persons that Biglaw cultivates. Do you really want to turn into someone like that? Bitter, jealous, petty, anal and basically a human a-hole? I guarantee you won't get clients with those traits no matter if you were the top dog at HLReview or graduated with order of the coif honors.

Okay, here is what you do, take the money, work at a public interest project, maybe even negotiate to get some student loan forgiveness option thrown in. With that $75K or 18K, I would look into opening a 501(c)(3) non-profit company specializing in giving legal services to the indigent. Apply for grants, especially from religious organizations. You can do whatever you want. Represent battered women in divorce, landlord/tenant, help religious organizations become tax exempt, etc. It may not be glamorous work like document review at BigLaw but I guarantee you will become a lawyer faster than your peers at BigLaw and you will be happier with a better quality of life.

During the summer I worked at BigLaw, I partied hard and did not take the opportunity serious. I was puerile and irresponsible back then. However, not getting embraced by Biglaw culture was devine intervention as I don't have to deal with being voted out or fired from a firm. In essence, I have become a firm on my own and I don't need a managment committee to tell me how much I am making or when I can take off for down time.

To follow my adivce you have to have spine and character. You have to hustle and work hard but at least you will be working for yourself not some fat bloated partner that can't think straight because he is popping viagra too much that his brain is flushed. Good luck to you.

Dearest good friends.

I am the Roger Lou. I try decision for employment full time. After dog persistence, I have my choice are Wachtell and Sutherland. Which offer you say I choose? I went to number ones law school America University instead of GULC, which friend hostra magnon called TTT. I no want make stink choice of big firm. Please, atl friend, you tell me, i go.

With respect,
Roger Lou (诶比西"

Columbia Law student kills himself.

Was he a 3L that had his offer revoked?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F01E7D8153EE033A25757C2A9679C946697D6CF

Can someone confirm the Cravath start dates?? Are incoming 3Ls really starting on October 26th?

How about an article/list of firms that have NOT laid anyone off?

A certain V3 sweatshop has booked a block of 37th floor rooms for Monday morning. 10% of the general practice group. No word on severance. You heard it here first. Good luck to all.

115- I assume you do realize the article's from 1907, right?

Re:115

Bar exam question: Can estate of deceased law student sue law firm that revoked offer of employment which was the proximate cause of his emotionally turbulent state that led to putting a bullet through his head? Discuss: a) Liability of on campus interviewer that induced decedent into becoming interested in law firm; b) Liability of hiring committee that fraudulently sugar coated decendent's future career; and c) Liability of person that informed decedent that as a result of the economic "force majeure," his services were no longer needed and that he would have to fend for himself and repay over $150,000.00 in student loans.

Bonus Question (for you fastidious brown nosers in the crowd): If student loans were guranteed by US govt., does decendent's estate have to repay them if estate prevails on a money judgment against the aforesaid parties?

119: the article is sadly a harbinger of things to come.

I predict many more suicides to come.

-Suicidal Laid Off 1st Year

113/49 - you mean biglaw creates bitter, jealous, pet "a-holes" (fyi - this blog does not require sensoring)? You mean like someone who wasn't smart enough to even get an offer in biglaw once securing a summer position (and everybody here knows if you get no-offered it means you are either a flaming idiot or socially retarded) and admits "seeing biglaw suffer these days has put a twinkle in my eye no doubt. I will continue to read with glee about biglaw's impending demise"?

But I'm sorry to interrupt, you have ambulances to chase and likely small children to touch. Anybody who listens to a guy with that small a penis is just as moronic. Nothing worse than a petty biglaw outcast who wishes the worst upon people. Let me guess - you're 5'2, balding, a bit on the heavy side, single and looking?

But please give law students more advice on how to be as cool as you. Fuckface.

I bought a .38 Saturday Night Special from a pawn shop. I have only one bullet. I keep starring down the barrel of the gun waiting for the phone to ring, hoping it's a legal headhunter who has found me a job. I am losing hope and the trigger is getting lighter.

-Suicidal 2nd Year that was laid off in January

123-validates 113's point about assholes.

Anyone who hopes for people to lose their jobs is an asshole, including the people who support them (see e.g. 125).

124, Latham layoff?

Best strategy for not getting fired: Get pregnant and notify firm immediately as you get EPT confirmation. Send firmwide email announcing your pregnancy. If they fire you, you can claim sex discrimination.

PS Of course this will only work if you are a femaile esquire.

Supplement to 128, if you are male, go into gay partner's office and start making out with him. If they fire you, you have great sex harrassment case. Good luck!

can we please stop with the suicide talk?

I have spoken to various counsellors at 1-800-784-2433. They won't take my calls anymore.
They must have caller ID because when I call they pick up and place me on indefinite hold. Severance is running out. Please help.

131, Latham layoff?

It's really sad reading these stories. Imagine going from being Biglaw's bitch to Sallie Mae's cunt muscle? Oh the humanity...

117

The following is a list of BigLaw firms that have not laid attorneys off:

If you haven't already figured it out, BigLaw is dead. Gone are the days when corporations, even midsized ones, will view counsel's ability and competence largely by the rate they charge. Few will pay $700 an hour for a partner--unless it is for one of a truly elite caliber--and $300+ for a green associate. More and more corporations are shifting their work in-house or to smaller firms that bill at a more reasonable rate.

I don't want to live if I have to be sallie mae's cunt muscle.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

Mystal, you fat, filthy fuck! Kash, you trifling whore! Lat, you queer, pillow-biter! Stop making a buck off the fear mongering. You three should be ashamed of yourselves; making a profit off the misery of others. I suppose that is the American way though. Elie, you fat affirmative action turd. Were it not for race conscious admissions policies, your fat ass would have been relegated to a community college somewhere in Kansas. Lat, the drones on this blog jock you because you were on Yale's law review and worked at Wachtell... but you're still a useless queer that couldn't cut it in BigLaw. Kash... well, you're a less than average looking legally trained skank.

120, your student loans are cancelled if you die

Mystal, you fat, filthy fuck! Kash, you trifling whore! Lat, you queer, pillow-biter! Stop making a buck off the fear mongering. You three should be ashamed of yourselves; making a profit off the misery of others. I suppose that is the American way though. Elie, you fat affirmative action turd. Were it not for race conscious admissions policies, your fat ass would have been relegated to a community college somewhere in Kansas. Lat, the drones on this blog jock you because you were on Yale's law review and worked at Wachtell... but you're still a useless queer that couldn't cut it in BigLaw. Kash... well, you're a less than average looking legally trained skank.

137, Good answer, now discuss the questions you conveniently skipped.

I believe BigLaw's impending demise is widely exaggerated.

They're been declared DOA many times before. The Finley fall brought loud grumbles of how they deserved it and brought it on themselves (now known to be the case) but whispered worries about how it signaled an "end" to BigLaw as anyone knew it. And back then, Finley probably had revenues of around 200 million (80s).

Then 100 year old clunkers like Mudge Rose fell with Dewey Ballantine on merger life support. That was the "end" of BigLaw too.

In this era of 200 BILLION in revenues seen by BigLaw firms, how many of you have never even heard of Finley, Kumble; Mudge Rose or Dewey as "Dewey Ballantine"?

138, you are a horrible person

Biglaw firms that haven't announced layoffs are either doing it via stealth mode or they are playing the role of the damsel at the dinner party who has to fart but is trying her damnest not to let out the gas. How many more weeks of no billable hour work can Biglaw sustain before partners begin to panic about plummeting PPP? The grim reaper is her Biglaw. The sickle's cut with be a true bloodbath.

Yo, check this cause Dhalsim in the hizzy.

So Mr. Partner come down to my office after lunch on Friday and he all “Um, Mr. Dhalsim, I know that you missed the oral download this A.M. regarding associate reductions and my assistant has informed me that she believes you were hiding under your desk during the meeting. I understand that you are upset about these cutbacks, but you cannot simply dodge this issue and hope it will go away. We have had to make some difficult decisions and …” Then I cut his ass off and was all “Yoga Fire! Yoga Fire!” Then while his ass was burning I came in with a medium kick from across the room KERPLOW! and followed up with a sliding kick BLAM! and knocked motha-fucka off his ass. Then I tracked Mr. Managing Partner to his lair like I tracked M. Bison to his spiderhole in Thailand before I dropped his ass. Mr. Managing Partner was all “…so that’s when we decided to convert from an s-corp to an LLC… excuse me, Mr. Dhalsim, would you come back when my call is over…” “YOGA FLAME” “Shit I’m on fire!!!” “I WILL ADD YOUR TIME-BLASTED SKULL TO MY NECKLACE!” Then I finished his ass with a few sliding kicks SHNERKUM! and crossed my legs so I could meditate in midair before I set out to destroy again.

Biotches won’t be firing nobody now.

142, you are wrong. Some firms are better diversified than others and can hold out much longer without layoffs. Weil and Gibson Dunn come to mind.

The idiots who overextended themselves into corp and finance without adequately diversifying themselves are the ones who are struggling.

142- You are a fool to believe that at well diversified firms the partners' practice areas that are thriving (Weil-bankruptcy) will carry the sagging departments (corporate). How long do you think that will last before partners are let go along with their associates?

145, the whole point of diversification is to have the busier departments carry the slower ones.

That said, there's a limit to this, and there may be layoffs, but they'll occur later and will be fewer in number.

What about firms in the V50-100 that haven't laid anyone off?

145-Have you ever been at a partners' meeting about the economic state of the firm? That is where the concept of the firm being a family is thrown out the window. It will come down to who is carrying who and if you can't carry your weight, your ass is shown the door. Some partners will panic and try to make a lateral move if their paranoia drives them. In this economy, you will see a lot of partners at Biglaw jockey for position just to save their own hide. Who gets sacrificed? The poor staff and the insufferable associates.

147- v50-100 firms are irrelevant.

"147- v50-100 firms are irrelevant."

v50-100 associate with jobs are quite relevant.

Enjoy prestige-whoring while you can.

Just looking at the Vault 61-80 range there are a number of firms I don't recall hearing layoff news about:

Vinson & Elkins
Steptoe & Johnson
Foley & Lardner
Hunton & Williams
Nixon Peabody
Patton Boggs

What gives? Less leverage? Lower rates?

Regarding No. 5 ...

Although I do not think it is professional to take pleasure in the suffering of this so-called "BigLaw" industry, I do appreciate No. 5's insight.

I am a senior associate in a BigLaw firm. For someone who has not spent a considerable amount of time actually working in Biglaw, No. 5's characterization of it is fairly accurate. That said, for those out there who may be in law school, or are junior associates who have recently been let go, I think No. 5's points are good. I have been considering branching off and starting my own boutique for a couple years now ...

BigLaw is incredibly inefficient - and I think a reasonable percentage of clients will stop paying for this nonsense. I spent several years in another industry, before going to law school and then working in BigLaw. Even 8 years ago when I started in BigLaw, I remember thinking about how inefficient my firm operated, relative to the way most other businesses were operating at the time ... I've actually been waiting for the "market forces" to "pull up the curtain" and reveal the mess and inefficiencies of this so-called BigLaw industry.

If the trajectory of BigLaw continues, I think it will be enough to persuade me to finally take the jump and start my own firm, which will be much more efficient and client-value driven.

In short, my advice to the law students and juniors is to open your ears to people like No. 5. While there is definitely a bit of unncessary bitterness is his messages, he is providing valuable insight here.

Signed,

BigLaw Senior Associate

Btw ... this is coming from an associate who has very little chance of being laid off, has a small book of business, and has been told that he will be making partner in another year (of course, the non-equity type for now). That is, my advice here is not coming on the heels of being laid off or harmed in some way by BigLaw. My advice is just my objective impression of BigLaw.

I'm so glad Obama was elected. Obama's going to pay my bills and my rent and my student loan payments.

118 - Conference rooms on the 37th floor, that's Skadden, right? And what's the "general practice group"? M&A? General Lit?

143 - you just made my sad weekend so much more bearable.

151,

Nixon Peabody had layoffs.

151 -- yes, less leverage is the reason. V&E has leverage of 2.5 or so. orrick's leverage was 6 to 1; latham's was 3.8 or so and heavy into finance. Do the math. At most, v&e will use the crisis as an excuse to cut some fat. But they can't cut that many associates, else they'll have negative leverage!

This is board is full of a bunch of drama queens. BIG LAW IS NOT DEAD. there was obviously a bubble, and firms are correcting their overhiring by cutting 10-15% of their bloated associate corps. big deal!! notice how NO partners are being fired. the firms are using this crisis to cut a lot of the morons (people like #5) that never would have gotten a second look by biglaw but for the financial bubble and the need for warm bodies to do due diligence. that still leaves plenty of folks making millions, and thousands of 25 y/os making 175k+!!! that doesn't sound "dead" to me! the only thing that is "dead" is biglaw for people at non-t14 schools. those days ARE dead. but so what?

Is Lat some kind of Asian scrub? He and Mystal are nothing but a couple of affirmative action beneficiaries. And Kash sucked her way to the top like a hoover. At night, Mystal, Lat and Kash have the most disgusting threesome possible. Mystal bouncing his disgustingly obese ass up and down Lat's tiny little Asian cock while Kash sits on Lat's face. Why can't the three of them get real fucking jobs?

158 you are a horrible man

"147- v50-100 firms are irrelevant."

yeah, munger tolles (51) is irrelevant. and king& spalding is more prestigious than boies. anyone who refers to vault is retarded.

we'll see how "prestigious" cravath and s&c are when the treasury dept. owns all the banks -- ie, when s&c is answering to some bureaucrat w/ a BA from American.

157 half my class was cut. plenty of them were double ivy and had offers at places like skadden and DPW.

159, I have a question for you. If my nutz were on your chin, where would my dick be?

154: Skadden isn't V3, so if that poster meant Skadden, it's pretty likely to be flame given the mistake.

up your ass 162

Mystal, Lat, Kash and Marin. Please shut this worthless site down. You ignant fucks helped faciliate this layoff shit by supporting the salary wars of the 90s. There is no way biglaw associates should have been making that much money. And now the bubble has burst. You guys are a bunch of opportunistic ass holes. The funny thing is, that the people that comment on this blog think you guys are doing them a favor by bringing "transparency" to the legal employment market. Bunch of fucking sheep. Elie, get your damn hand out of the cookie jar. Don't you feel ashamed when you look in the mirror in the morning and have to lift up your stomach to look at your own privates?

I think 118 meant S&C. It's V3 and calls its corporate dep't "general practice." That, of course, still does not mean it is legit; this could be the same guy who is posting the DPW layoff flame on autoadmit.

163 - Skadden was V4, behind Wachtell, Cravath and S&C. Maybe 118 assumes that Skadden will move into V3 given Cravath's "half-Skadden" bonuses. And none of the others have conference room centers on their 37th floor, like Skadden. We shall see what happens on Monday.

158 --- You aren't that smart. Affirmative action doesn't benefit Asian people. If anything, it disadvantages them more than white people (I am white) . . . your comments are also gross ... what kind of stuff do you sit around thinking about in the office of your TTT law firm?

If you don't like the blog, don't read it.

158, 165 (probably the same troll): GO BACK TO AUTOADMIT!

Kash, Lat and MysTTTal, I'm delighted about the new comment policy. Now, please use it and delete this troll's foul and useless posts!

And, 158/165, I hope the day comes you get outed and your career ruined.

I want to fall in love!

170, fall in love with gross old man?

-gross old man

No, I want to fall in love and leave the firm and not have my heart feel like a tangled knot all the time.

*grabs 72's ass, darts away quickly*

-gross old man

173 -- that's flattering, but I'm a dude, and I don't play that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4

166 = DPW recruiter

I smell blood in the water. Maybe the layed off DPW associates can get some modeling work during their newly freed time.

174: *doesn't care what you want, caresses your thigh*

-gross old man

Despite the erroneous reports, there have been no layoffs at K&L Gates.

177 -- I want a cure to herpes. So fucking irritating pissing in two streams.

Herpes v. AIDS. Discuss.

Atlas is not about greed -Rand's common theme is individualism and self interest, but not greed

What about Chicago based firms? No real layoffs there.

Per the Legal Times TPW is going after ex-associates for bar advances, please report.

160, I never even heard of Munger Tolles. After visiting there website I now know that Munger Tolles (MTO) is just one letter off MTA. They should be glad to be on a left coast firm, because if they were in NY they would be fun of unmercifully.

After pulling a Mystal

160, I never even heard of Munger Tolles. After visiting their website I now know that Munger Tolles (MTO) is just one letter off MTA. They should be glad to be a left coast firm, because if they were in NY they would be fun of unmercifully.

Please stop with the Skadden rumors. I almost had a heart attack for fuck's sake. The conference rooms on 37 appear to be booked because of a firm-wide litigation lunch. The topic is, "The Valuation of Illiquid and Complex Securities."

Oh, and also, to those of you who are feeling suicidal, please just leave the country. If you really are buried under debt and feel like ending it, just move to Mexico. Learn Spanish. Get a job in tourism. And live. Live bro. Friends? Family? Please... Ten years later you can change your name and jump the border to return to the US as a legal illegal immigrant. Your creditors will never be the wiser.

After pulling a Mystal

160, I never even heard of Munger Tolles. After visiting their website I now know that Munger Tolles (MTO) is just one letter off MTA. They should be glad to be a left coast firm, because if they were in NY they would be made fun of unmercifully.

186, Did you ever consider that was just a ruse? Now, that the trick of spotting conference room bookings for hints of impending doom is out of the bag, firms will have to be surreptitious in booking conference rooms. You should cross-reference the booking with some sort of public press release or an invitation list that includes outside guests.

Also, please consider reviewing reimbursements for the Acela.

Five years from now doom and gloomers will be talking how obvious it was that the economy and BIGLAW would bounce back just like it has after every other downturn in American history. In the meantime, they'll go on believing that for decades clients of every sort have been hoodwinked into paying too much for legal services, and because the economy is down clients will suddenly realize it.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
=
Nobody gets freedom,
OR
Freedom's overrated?

189, I was an aeronautical engineer before. The engineering services and maintenance market just went poof around 1985, as the end of the big defense projects became obvious to managers. It took until 1998 to get back to the same level only to vanish on 9/11.

186, I love you.

~incoming Skadden first-year

152 = 5 or someone equally pretentious

And actually, the 37th Floor conference rooms are also booked in the morning for corporate-wide XBRL training.

suck it.

186 - Flom set up a meeting with old man Arps back in 1962 on "The Valuation of Illiquid and Complex Securities"...then he cock-punched him to death. It's the Skadden way.

Should I kill myself after giving my severance to my family?

-suicidal laid off first year

Is it just me, or does it appear that many more male associates are being laid off than females? Maybe firms are considering the natural weeding out in their firing decisions?

I stay up all night, dreaming of sweet sweet death.

-suicidal laid off first year

I am a recently laid off second year associate from biglaw. I graduated from uva law, was on law review and I am african american. I believe biglaw hired me to fill a racial quota. First week at biglaw, a photographer was brought in and I must have been photographed at least three dozen times with partners and other associates. I was always told to smile. My face was prominently featured on on-campus recruiting materials and on the firm's website. I was a good associate. I worked hard and kissed a lot of ass. The minute I got called into my supervising partner's office, he started saying "I regret to inform you that as a result of the global economic recession..." that is when I stopped the muthafucka and told him I was being fired because I was black. The partner started stuttering and replied "Nono No, I have a black partner, we accept your kind here." That is when I pulled my smartphone out and told the partner that I will see him and his partners in court after I sue them for wrongful termination and racial discrimination. Biglaw will soon kiss my black ass and pay me $$$. Can you believe these sonsofbitches are still using my likeness on the on campus recruiting materials? I should get some royalties for that.

Am visiting friends in Pittsburgh and drove by One Oliver Plaza, the soon-to-be new home of K&L Gates. The name "K&L Gates" appears at the top of the building in big white letters. Must have cost a fortune, and surely a lot more more than the salaries of a lot of loyal, long-time staff that K&L Gates laid off in its Pittsburgh office in recent months because of the economy of all things. Excuse me, but am I the only one who finds that to be completely immoral?

199, you were laid off because you sucked at softball.

201-Is that you DT? Are you still resentful that my fastball capped your cracker nuts at last year's firm summer outting? I never told you this but you should stop combing that strand of hair over your dome. You lost your hair. Deal with it and shave the rest of it off.

199, 201 here. I don't work at your firm, but I was a few years ahead of you at your school and am also black. Uncle Tom me all you want, but being militant got you nowhere there. Or, evidently, in biglaw. You are obviously smart since you made law rev - go do something else. Honestly, use your severance period to try to get your face off the website - printed materials have already been paid for, so you probably won't make progress on that. Good luck.

203- 199/202 here. No need to call you an Uncle Tom since you accept being one. You remind me of Lawrence Mungin who is the subject of the book entitled: "The Good Black." It is about a brotha who worked at biglaw and got fucked over. Mungin sued biglaw and got paid big bucks. I suggest you read it and open your eyes before biglaw tears a new hole in you.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Black-True-Story-America/dp/0452278597

I'm having some serious anxiety attacks over my layoff.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

Having an anxiety attack

-suicidal laid off 1st year

205/206 et al. - If you're not trolling, chill man. Stop paying your student loans, at least the privates. Try and defer/forebear first, but worst comes to worst, just default. If you have real property see if your state has 'homestead' protection laws. If not FUCK 'EM. They can't get blood from a stone.

Considering how fucked things are either student loans will be forgiven (at least in part); or eventually made dischargeable in bankruptcy; and worst case scenario: work in public interest or at least something you like, and let the fuckers garnish some of your wages if it comes to that. Frankly, so many people are going to be as bad or worse off than you there has to be a radical re-thinking of credit anyway, so you will certainly not be an outlier.

203, I made partner last year. Equity. My eyes are fine. Thought you were kidding with the first post, hence my flip response. Guess not.

-202

F student loans:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=46657437878

207-In re Brumner, In re Brightful places a heavy burden on debtors trying to discharge student loans in bankruptcy. You basically have to be a quadriplegic to qualify for an extreme hardship discharge. Bad employment prospects or bad economy do not qualify for hardship discharge. Bankruptcy Code will not be amended to discharge student loans. In 1998 congress changed the code to make student loans non-dischargeable. I doubt congress will repeal its own law after 10 years. Student loans are like taxes. They won't go away and they won't be forgiven. You are right that you can't get blood from a stone but have you heard the saying "A stone can be put in a prison cell until it bleeds?" 205 should relax and move back with his parents. Verizon wireless is hiring. Perhaps he can sell me my next blackberry when I come into the store.

5/113,

91 here. Thank you for sharing some of your experience with us. It is good to know there are alternatives for associates--and for clients--outside of BigLaw (except for those alternatives you allude to that are outside the United States, I should add!).

199 / 202 / 204 -

Please explain how in th world your termination is a "wrongful termination" or due to "racial discrimination"? There is little evidence in your story of that being the case.

question for other biglaw senior associates or partners:

I am working on a matter and noticed the clock went from 1:59AM to 2:59AM. We sprung forward. My question is when I do my time sheet do I put down 2 hours or 1?

Sorry 210, but people have been offing themselves and leaving the country because of student loans. Congress will realize they made a terrible mistake making student loans nondischargeable.

199 - you only got into UVA because you're black, you only got on law review because you're black, and the firm only hired you because you're black. You should be thankful your blackness got you this far.

Besides, we have a black president now. Do you really think a jury will believe that you were fired because of racism (esp. since thousands of others are also getting fired)? Affirmative action will be dead soon. It has gotten so out of whack that we elected a president due to white-guilt. And now the economy is spiraling out of control. The most qualified person should be hired regardless of race.

210 moving in with parents isn't an option. I'd rather off myself that have 7 years of education culminate in this shit.

What's the best type of gun for killing self?

215 has to be flame

215 has to be flame

215: were you wearing a white hood as you wrote that post? or are you going to say that your girlfriend fucks black dudes because of affirmative action as well?

216, if I were you just go to your law school career services office and tell the director to do a Jack Kevorkian procedure on you since they effectively hoodwinked you into going to law school by making false promises of a wealthy life after law school.

215 here - I'm not a racist; it's the truth. Perhaps blacks at Yale Law - and to a certain extent Harvard and Stanford - earned their into those schools; but the biggest differences between black LSAT scores and other admitted LSAT scores are EXACTLY in the tier right below the very top schools, i.e., the UVA's of the world. Those are the facts.

Affirmative action policies have been catastrophic with respect to black plight. Teenage pregnancies, crime rates, dropout rates, etc. have all gone up dramatically over the last 20-30 years.

And now we elected a man to be president of the United States, essentially on the basis of his race. To suggest otherwise is, in my opinion, wishful thinking. How many first-term senators with no legislative or executive accomplishments have ever won the presidency? Fact.

The markets have not taken well to his policies. Fact.

Maybe we'll learn from this mistake. Maybe we won't. But in any event you can say what you want but I know in my heart I am not a racist. I did not vote for the guy whose ancestors sold their people into slavery (Obama is not an African-American; he's straight African). He has not suffered from racism. He has benefitted from it.

210- I hope you and your entire family get bowel cancer, live in agonizing pain, and then die in a fire just as a cure is found, you shit eating piece of sub-human garbage.

That said, I am well aware of the high bar to loan dischargeability (as it stands now). But your baseless assertion that Congress will not change the law, simply because is it is a decade old, in the face of overwhelming economic catastrophe is asinine. Maybe your just stupid enough to believe the status quo is that static, but policy about faces in times of extreme change are common.

I assume your simply trying to be a dick to people who are actually going through gut wrenching upheaval. I can only hope they find solace in that getting out of BigLaw will simply result in them less likely ending up like you.

Oh, and there is no debtor's prison. Fuckface.

Did I mention you should die in a fire? It's really only the decent thing left for you to do.

220 i don't think assisted suicide is legal in my state. Try again.

222,

Why do you need to be employed in BigLaw to pay down your student loans? Don't lawyers elsewhere make enough as it is?

It's 5am Sunday morning and I've been at work all night. What recession???

It's 5am Sunday morning and I've been at work all night. What recession???

224, no, they do not. go to jdunderground.com for a glimpse into the lives of non-biglawyers.

there used to be a time when a non-biglaw lawyer could pay off their student debt. those days are long over, ever since they ABA allowed the creation of too many law schools and easy lending jacked up the cost of tuition.

50k salary will not pay off a 150k debt.

222 is the credited post

199 i hope you're serious.

224 - No. Salary distribution is grotesquely skewed.

See: http://www.nalp.org/uploads/953_0108salarygraph2006color.gif

and:
http://www.nalp.org/2008jansalaries

You have the biglaw pyramid scheme, or crappola. Crappola is fine, and will eventually probably be more satisfying if you find something you like...but the money takes a lot longer than forebearances give you to start rolling in.

227,

See #5

230 - So wouldn't a solution be to extend the forbearance period?

210 - YOU fail at being a human. Prepare to be re-programmed, you insufferable meat bag.

232 - Depends on debt load. Piling up interest on 150k+ for 3 to 5 years really ain't much of an option.

S&C is in the V3. Skadden is not.

S&C calls its corporate practice "general practice." Skadden does not.

S&C has a 37th floor conference floor.

We're all fucked.

I was layoff once when I was young but now I just hope to stay with the company until I retire.

215 is right. Affirmative action is dead. The President clearly won the election based on merit.

Before starting my Sunday slog, a few observations.

It kills me the people who post "I'm a partner. Suck it." at 3:45 Sunday morning. Thse posts are just sad, whether or not that person actually is a partner.

Also, I agree that salary wars probably have a lot to do with the layoffs. Firms with PPP close to $1 million were matching relatively smaller and leaner firms with PPP > $2 million. Yes, most NYC-based firms are fairly small operations (skadden excluded) when compared to some of these firms that laid-off or blew up. That sort of competition wasn't really a competition and a lot of national/CA firms had no business paying the same starting salaries as NYC biglaw.

238

Why is it sad to be working at 3:45? Sometimes you just have to. Remember last week when you had to pull an all nighter for your torts exam.? Same thing happens in "real life" except it's a client deadline.

It's not sad. It's just life.

237 - Affirmative action is not dead now (obviously), but will be dead soon when the American public realizes the costs of its catastrophic mistake.

240

I'm befuddled. Aren't we in the midst of realizing our catastrophic mistake of electing "W" two times in a row? Perhaps the real threat to the very fabric of our society* is not affirmative action but "legacy?"

*scratches head*

*that would be sacrasm at your over the top ninny posts.

A partner checking ATL at 3:45 in the morning on a Saturday night is sad (and, at least where I work, highly uncommon). Must be a big deadline if there's time to post on a legal gossip blog.

A poster pretending to be a partner posting at 3:45 morning is pathetic. So please, save your bull shit.

242

First, I'm not the partner at issue.
Second, I was not speaking direclty about said poster. I was simply rebutting your dismissal of partners working at 3:45 as "sad" by pointing out that sometimes it is necessary.
Third, if you aren't cut out to work until all hours of the morning - as a junior, mid level or senior associate or as a partner you are in the wrong job. Perhaps you should email some ex-Lathamites who will gladly work the hours having had the epiphany that losing their jobs is the "sad" alternative.

"I'm befuddled. Aren't we in the midst of realizing our catastrophic mistake of electing "W" two times in a row?"

-

What is . . . the excuse the Democrats are going to give for every f-up of theirs over the next four years for $1,000, Alex?

(P.S., 199 - try to imagine Bush going around saying somebody wronged him because he was a legacy or came from a prominent family and you'll get a good grasp of how others read your post, at least given the facts you provided.)

Layoffs are coming at K&L Gates. Probably this week. ATL may have had the timing wrong, but it is going to happen.

244

Huh? When did Obama claim to be wronged? And by whom?

Pardon my confusion but your post was entirely nonsensical.

210 - what century are you living in? We don't have debtors' prisons anymore. No one goes to jail for not paying their student loans. They'll fuck your credit and garnish your wages but you're not going to jail.

The wronged part is strictly for 199, not Obama.

248

LOL. I thought 199 was so obviously a joke that no one would really respond to it as though it were valid.

Carry on.

"LOL. I thought 199 was so obviously a joke . . ."

If it is, the guy has a bad sense of humor.

Though, that's apparently common around here.

199--should you have escaped termination because you are black? I don't understand. A lot of people are losing their jobs...its the economy. Race has nothing to do with it.

199--should you have escaped termination because you are black? I don't understand. A lot of people are losing their jobs...its the economy. Race has nothing to do with it.

199--should you have escaped termination because you are black? I don't understand. A lot of people are losing their jobs...its the economy. Race has nothing to do with it.

253, of course he should. See, e.g., Yolanda Young. You should also give him reparations money because people who looked like him were enslaved by people who vaguely looked like you 150 years ago.

243, my whole point was that people (partners, law students, trolls, whoever) POSTING on this site at 3:45 in the morning are sad, not WORKING until 3:45 in the morning. So you didn't rebut anything. This is called reading comprehension. I also never suggested you were the OP.

FWIW, I have also done my fair share of overnight Saturday nights, although not recently. And finally I am happy to be working at one of the firms in the second half of my orginal post, so hopefully I will avoid the axe. You have a good one, buddy. Not quite sure what you're all up in arm's about but good luck with it.

221 = Clarence Thomas

255

Eh. Sometimes when you're working late you need a distraction - grab coffee visit a Web site for a distraction. It's not sad, it's a function of exhaustion or boredom.

I'm not all up in arms - I just think your perspective is wrong.

So which v50 law firm is going to announce a big layoff next week? Anyone got a tip?

Elie/Lat -- There is an alarming increase in the number of comments alluding to or threatening suicide. You guys need to run a post on resources for people who are depressed. Seriously.

259, these resources won't help. I need a job that's going to save my legal career. Talking to some therapist isn't going to help with that.

-Suicidal Laid Off 1st Year

232 no, that wouldn't be a solution. That debt will still be their and those stupid bastards will still be compounding interest onto it.

260 - If you're not serious about this, there would still be people reading your comments who actually DO feel that way.

For them - and possibly for you - I will say that your perspective is off. Talking to a therapist will aid a great deal in expanding your worldview and in seeing possibilities for yourself that you (or others similarly situated) are not considering now.

To believe that one's legal career is "over" before age 30, 40 or even 50 is WAY too narrow a perspective. The legal field is a very large one with employment opportunities across the board. Latham and BigLaw are NOT the only games in town by a long shot. And 160K is NOT NEEDED to pay off loans.

One of the associates I worked with back in the day, let go from a BigLaw firm in the last economic dark age, fled to a Federal regulatory agency. After only a few years there, he lateraled back into BigLaw and is now a partner in that firm.

Things turn around. What depressed youngin's must understand is that life is MUCH longer than you think it is when you're only 26.

262 i want to believe this, but it seems that absolutely no one is hiring. they're especially not hiring people with a few months of experience. they either hire out of law school or take laters. i fucking hate my biglaw firm for showing me the door at this stage. i had other offers at places that haven't laid off.

20 - best response ever on ATL!

263 - 262 here. Does the "no one" hiring involve only BigLaw and Second-to-Big-Law firms? If it does, you have to expand your horizons.

You have to look at local, state and federal agencies. You have to look at not-for-profits. You have to look in-house in corporations big and small.

And, if necessary, approach not-for-profits with your own brand of internship simply to be working AS a lawyer. Get loan forebearance as soon as you can talk one into it. Then, you just continue your search. Use unemployment to survive on the cheap.

Even that last option would close a gap. It's not economically profitable in the IMMEDIATE. It's boundlessly economically profitable in the long run, because it would vary your experience and keep you working.

You just did this sort of thing only last year while IN law school, borrowing money to survive while you "worked" in essence some 80 hours a week. Make this period just another year of law school if you must. The experience you gain is FAR more valuable than not gaining it.

i will try 265, but if i don't find something soon that will salvage my career, i am offing self. not that anyone gives a shit.

Will you idiots please stop using ATL to bitch and complain - - it completely kills the goal of information sharing. Go tell your f****** complaints to your therapists - - I'm sick of hearing your pathetic posts.

267, no.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

266 - Your family gives a shit. Friends you aren't thinking of right now give a shit. People whose lives you've touched give a shit.

This is why therapy was being recommended to you. The depressed - situationally or otherwise - are often UNABLE to see past their immediate situation. They often distort the reality of their worth as people. They mistakenly convince themselves that they are horrible people who just go around being worthless to others.

And they're DEAD WRONG.

Think of it this way, 266. In Latham and in other BigLaw firms, you would have eventually hit a road block like MOST people do. You would have come to learn that BigLaw is packed to the rafters with very flawed and damaged people. Many in that environment are so angry, bitter and dark that they are hated by nearly everyone who has ever met them. They go out of their way to sense of security.

And those jerkoffs NEVER do the world a favor and off themselves.

But you, a first year associate who wasn't even around long enough to batter anyone for no damn good reason (if you were even so inclined) - YOU'RE "worthless" and no one gives a shit about YOU?? Oh no, no, no.

Compared to some of the sociopaths at the top of BigLaw, I'd take you any day without even knowing you personally.

Edit to 269.

"They go out of their way to be hated because to them it grants a twisted sense of security". (Last sentence, fourth paragraph)

267 - One of the unfortunate characteristics of this entire industry is that it attracts individuals who are hooked on external validation. They lived for grades in HS, college and law school to tell them who they were. They lived for offers from BigLaw to tell them who they are. From there, they continue to live for praise and partnership to tell them who they are.

When you have that kind of collection of personalities in an industry ANY job loss is devastating to the individual.

If you have already been separated from this external validation because you already didn't "make the grade" some time ago, then get some sympathy for those who are STILL like you once were. You would know just what it was like to have to find yourself after a first setback - when a grade or a paycheck could no longer tell you "who you are".

271, that is actually very insightful.

People like 268 need to come to terms with the fact that their lives are not defined by the prestige of their employer, and that they're losers no matter what their job title is.

124 - bring those feelings back to Latham (and some road flares strapped to your chest with wires running into a black box - or better yet, the real thing) and show the partners how you feel about them lying to you in recruiting and then destroying your career to keep that 4th Benz. Now THAT would make a great ATL story. Lat will love you - 1000 comments plus for sure.

272 - 262/265/269/271 here.

Did you mean to say that 267 is the loser no matter what his title?

268 is the one identifying himself as "suicidal laid-off first year" and with whom I've been having this conversation.

If you meant the idiotic boor 267, then I agree.

274, no I was referring to "suicidal laid-off first year" who on other threads has constantly been posting that if she can't get a $160k biglaw job she might as well just kill herself. Basically, her life is complete only if she has a biglaw job title and $160k, no less.
And she also rejected well-meaning suggestions on how to live on $60k in NYC because she cannot live in a cheaper place outside Manhattan as she would be raped on the subway home (this is also why I'm guessing it's a she).

You should ignore the possible troll and attention whore.

I agree with 124 that your firm should be involved in your suicide. Preferrably during the summer program.

275 - My first post in this convo allowed for the possibility that "Suicidal First Year" was not truly serious. I added that even if s/he wasn't, there would be others reading (but not necessarily commenting) who DID feel that way.

So I conducted the conversation with that hypothetical person, regardless of whether Suicidal First Year fits the bill individually.

And FWIW, when I was young, I was still clouded by that myth of "high crime" being a threat to single, young women too. And that was in the late 80s when the crime rate in NYC was much higher than it is today. I was never afraid of the subway, but I did throw a shitload of money away on rent because of that bubble I'd been raised in. (In NYC, BTW).

So, yes, it's not AS bad as Suicidal First Year, or others like her may be imagining. But the threat of assault on single, young women is not AS low as you experience for a single young male.

To the "suicidal first year" (from a 20 year vet): You are same person that you were the day before you got laid off---with the same potential and the same credentials. This market stinks. But, it does not define you or your career---it only redirects it. Hopefully, you went to law school because you enjoyed law---not just because you thought it might get you a $160K paycheck out of school. Take charge of your life. Go figure out a way to get legal experience. Offer to intern at smaller, well respected firms or nonprofits (where you can get good training)---for free. Start a PLLC and go around offering contract services to law firms that may have cut associate ranks too deeply. Move home. Wait tables at night to make ends meet. Believe in yourself. You can make your own future. Not everyone starts at the top. It doesn't mean they won't end up a the top. This economy will improve in mid to late 2010. You need to be ready with some legal skills to differentiate you from the herd then.

I was a total gunner in school. It so amazes me now to see all my non gunner "C" student friends that have totally surpassed me in salary and business profit/prowess (both in law and out of law). Most of these people started out making much less than me---but they caught up and overtook me about 10 years out of school. There are many paths to economic success. . . and along the way you may learn to define success in non-economic terms too.

Finish up your pity party this weekend. Move forward with your life tomorrow.

278, i have massive student debt. i'm afraid that limits my options. without it, i agree that i would be fine.

-suicidal laid off f1st year

So what. You probably own nothing to collect on. You'll pay it off when you start earning more. Your credits going to stink, and you'll have to rebuild it. Stop worrying about it. THere is nothing you can do about the debt at this point.

You can keep sending resumes out for Big Law jobs---but it is going to be a year or two before the market comes back. Ignore the debt. Focus on what you can do for the next six months to improve your legal skills. Future employers will admire the hussle.

So what. You probably own nothing to collect on. You'll pay it off when you start earning more. Your credits going to stink, and you'll have to rebuild it. Stop worrying about it. THere is nothing you can do about the debt at this point.

You can keep sending resumes out for Big Law jobs---but it is going to be a year or two before the market comes back. Ignore the debt. Focus on what you can do for the next six months to improve your legal skills. Future employers will admire the hustle.

279 - See 273. Give the partners something to think about before they continue screwing over young associates! You'll be doing a whole generation of junior associates and law students/new grads a huge favor! Your name will be toasted at dinners worldwide! As an anonymous ATL poet once wrote, Kill The Partners!

279, so what? Welcome to the world of TTT graduates with the same level of debt.

But waaah, you'll say, you signed up for the debt in 2005 because you thought you had a guaranteed $125k job. That was then, this is now, and you need to shut down your pity party.

With so many first years laid off, and the economy being as bad as it is, it'd be no surprise if a few of these first years snapped.

283, you haven't added anything of value. I didn't attend a TTT, so that wasn't supposed to be my fate.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

282, i agree that this would benefit 1st years in the future.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

I hope Biglaw:
1. lays off most of the secretaries (use word processing and enter your own time)
2. lays off paralegals (use junior associates)
3. rescinds 3L offers
4. lays off all the first and second years (they can't grow when there is no work and all the mid-levels are hoarding work anyways).

People are afraid of the reputation by laying off a lot of folks. Do you really think that if Biglaw make big layoffs that 3Ls in 2 years won't jump at a chance to make a starting salary of $160k?

285, ah yes, because non-TTT graduates are the only people in the world who are immune from economic ups and downs. It's not like any major firms laid off people or closed down during the 2000 recession. What was true in 2005 will always be true in 2008, which is why the Dow today is also at 10,000.

245---I guess that's how they are going to pay for the big, gaudy sign that 200 observed. I know that fabricating and installing such signage can run over $1 million. If I were a K&L Gates client, I would not want to be paying for that. So, I guess the firm's response is to make associates and other staff pay for it by laying them off. 200 is correct to raise the morality issue.

whatever 288, it's an objectively horrid situation, i don't care who has had to deal with it in the past

Did I just stumble onto a terrorist cell website? Do biglaw suicide bombers at least get a few virgins for their trouble (I hope so, because as a biglaw associate, there's a 50/50 chance they ARE a virgin . . .)

Your fate? Studying hard, getting in to a good school, earning law honors----none of that means (oops, I'm going to say it) "entitled" to start out in Big Law. More likely, yes? But fated, no. You're learning the lesson early. You can work at Big Law for 8 to 10 years--working hard, being an expert in your field, doing the right thing for the client and the team---and then get tossed out because you have no clients, are too expensive or because your partner did not have the power to drag you into the ownership ranks. Law is a business and it is not fair. Apply the same drive you had in school to addressing your problems now. As I said above, finish the pity party and take charge of your life.

291, they do get virgins, but they're all the male laid-off first year from Latham who thought that "work hard, play hard" meant they will finally lose their virginity once they start working.

To the laid-off BigLaw first years worried about loans:

If you had the talent and drive to get a job at Latham in the first place, you will probably be able to find work paying more than $50,000 a year. You are the fortunate ones.

294, i hope you're right, and i'm going to try to salvage things before i kill myself.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

291, let me be clear that i wouldn't be killing anyone besides myself.

-suicidal laid off 1st year

Since ATL commenters live in a different universe than the one I knew in BigLaw back when God was in HS, I ask them to rank the following law schools for me.

Harvard
Columbia
Stanford
NYU
Georgetown
U of Chicago
Rutgers
University of Florida
Fordham

285/290, you can't talk about your expectations and how it was your "fate" to earn $160k in biglaw, while ignoring the fate of plenty of others who had been laid off from biglaw prior to 2005. A firm called Brobeck laid off some people, maybe you've heard of it?

You were an idiot and thought that nothing economically bad could ever happen to yourself. You lost the gamble.

297,

Rutgers
Fordham
UF
Some other TTT law school
Harvard
Stanford
NYU
Georgetown
U of Chicago
Columbia
Yale
Wherever you went TTTo school.

299 - I didn't go to law school.

I was asking because those are the law schools represented among the partners in Latham's NY office.

NYU outnumbered everyone else.
Rutgers outnumbered Stanford

Harvard and Columbia were split between very senior partners and very young partners. I hit only 4 total in both schools in my browsing.

This is addessing what "Suicidal First Year" thought was his/her "fate".

What was the "fate" of the UF or Rutgers grads as s/he (or anyone else) saw it? Partner at Latham & Watkins?

THIS IS SPARTA!

fine 298 i lost the gamble. is there a point here?

-suicidal laid off 1st year.

Yeah, 302. The point is that life continues OUTSIDE the tiny box you drew for yourself.

maybe 303, but not the kind of life that's worth living

If DPW does layoffs tomorrow, LEGAL HOLOCAUST will follow.

302, the point is that TTT law graduates have had large student loans and no $160k jobs for years, and it was not your fate to earn $160k, so just live like them and quit your whining.

306, i'd rather die than get crushed by debt after all this work

307,

No worries - you can move to houston and get a job as a paralegal - no income tax!

Additionally, I just pointed out that so-called "TTT" grads were partners in the firm you see as the be all and end all.

If they can overcome being "TTT" grads to that height, then why can't you overcome being laid off?

307 i'd rather die than be a paralegal

307---You seriously need some counseling. You are totally defining yourself in monetary terms. There are cheaper places to live. Cheaper ways to live. You'd rather die? If your (financial) life is over, join the Peace Corps and dig wells in Africa. Build homes for struggling folks in South America. Do things that make the earth a better place. Help some people. Create some karma for yourself. I find something seriously f*&(d up about someone that thinks life is not worth living because they got laid off at Big Law or because they cannot earn $160K. What a narrow perspective. Show some resilience. Some spunk. " I can't get what I wanted so I'm going to lie down and die." I hope I raise my children differently. (Note to self: Take daughter for an ice cream today after I criticized her about a getting a "B" on that algebra test. Want her to make sure she understands that she is more important than grades.)

311, no

311 - I hope my comment here doesn't cause too much offense.

This was distrubing: (Note to self: Take daughter for an ice cream today after I criticized her about a getting a "B" on that algebra test. Want her to make sure she understands that she is more important than grades.)

You just wrote an excellent post to those in Suicidal First Year's position. Those are meaningful and powerful words.

Yet, you waited until your daughter was in HS to think about applying it to her? If you've been criticizing her for her grades for the past 9 years and quite possibly all 14-15 years of her life, what makes you think ice cream is going to undo what's already been done?

Ouch, dude.

The only California large firm that I know is doing really well and actively hiring is Buchalter Nemer. It has about 150 attorneys, and is based in Los Angeles.

Buchalter Nemer never had a large corporate or real estate practice and its litigation practice is centered on representing banks/financial institutions.

It has about 10 bankruptcy partners and from what I heard from one of my friends that works there is that all of them are incredibly busy and they are sucking up bodies whereever they can find them. It just brought two more bankruptcy partners on board--one from Jeffer Mangels, and the other from Hughes Hubbard.

The problem with Buchalter is that it has no summer program, and only hires 2-3rd year associates.

My spouse fired me yesterday.

To suicidal first year - just how much debt do you have? Because I have $300K. If you don't have as much as me, then I don't want to hear it.

First post here. Forgive me if this has been previously discussed. I think part of the problem has also been the proliferation of law schools coupled with their fraudulent practices in relation to attracting students. Case in point. When I graduated law school, there was under 150 law schools in the nation. That number has nearly doubled. Today we have Abraham Lincoln School of Law, Trinity Law School, U. of Silicon Valley School of Law, Samford U. Law (not to be confused with Stanford), Peoples College of Law, Appalachian Law School (to mention a few) added to the already croweded ranks of law schools that include the likes of Cooley, Thurgood, Whittier and Quinnipiac. I have seen what law schools do. They seduce college kids with promises of being the next "slumdog millionaire." Come to our school, get excellent grades, get on a journal, and you can have a chance at landing a job with Biglaw paying $160K a year. I don't know what is more sad, the fact that people bought into this shit or the fact that law schools are shameless about false advertisement. When I went to law school, I wasn't lure into it by Biglaw or big bucks. My first job I worked as a federal clerk making under $50K a year. It was the best job I had. Today, I work for the govt., making $120k a year, working only 4 days a week, from 8-4:30. There are other options besides eating lead. Nevertheless, if you leveraged yourself out more than $150K in loans and did not get the $160K/year job, go into public interest (don't insult public interest attorneys) and shave the student loan debt. Don't give up hope.

200--Stay in Alaska and quit fear mongering and agitating.

fifth to eat a gun

317 - Those law schools don't truly compete with the 150 who were around at the time you went to law school. So their graduates wouldn't really be adding to a pool of labor competing for BigLaw spots or, really, your first spot.

Under normal conditions and all things being equal, a larger number of law school graduates would mean a plunge in lawyer's wages. But the legal industry DOESN'T operate with all things being equal. Nothing is "equal" in that industry.

True that these schools should not tell applicants that they'll be working in BigLaw upon graduation. But I can't fault the school for existing to meet a demand.

College juniors and seniors pile applications into these schools with the same sort of conviction and world view expressed by Suicidal First Year. They believe that it's either big bucks IMMEDIATELY or its Walmart for the rest of your life.

And the legal industry itself does not do much to dissuade that black and white view. BigLaw is notoriously unforgiving about a "lesser" past. It's worse about forgiving a disruption in their own presence on a lawyer's C.V.

208: 199 back. You are full of shit. You are not an equity partner at biglaw. Maybe you are an equity partner at ghettolaw. You remind me of Uncle Clarence Thomas. He basically said fuck affirmative action, I got my degree from Yale so every other brotha can suffer after me. The point I was trying to make was that biglaw tried to make me a poster child for their minority recruitment. I don't have to defend my academic credentials and so what if I got into uva law based on affirmative action? My father, who I never knew, died of a heroin overdose and my mother was killed by a drunk driver coming back from her third job at 3AM. I surmounted more obstacles in life than you ever will. Getting fired from biglaw does not bother me that much. If I was underperforming I can accept termination. I was billing above average and no write downs on my hours. One partner used to call me "Chucky" as a lame reference to Spearchucker and no my name is not Charles. Another senior associate used to say "where is my wallet?" "has anyone seen my wallet?" whenever I entered a conference room or office. I have already put in motion my lawsuit and biglaw will pay for having used and abused me.

315, the difference is YOU will be paying her severance.

321, who cares? You would not be where you are today were it not for affirmative action. And now as BigLaw starts laying off associates, and they need to keep X% of affirmative action candidates, they are going to realize how screwed up affirmative action is.

I truly believe there'll be a wave of suicides, but months from now, as the laid-off first years can't find jobs.

321, you could have told your firm up front not to use you for their minority recruitment.

Oh what's that, the firm wouldn't have hired you? So basically the only redeeming quality that you brought to the firm was so that they could advertise the color of your skin, and now you are whining that they don't need that anymore. Boohoo, cry me a river that you lost a job you never should have gotten in the first place if your firm wasn't racist in its recruitment practices.

I think the big problem is that lawyers generally, and BigLaw funnel lawyers specifically, are by nature risk averse and that makes lay-offs and the unknown a particularly terrifying prospect for lawyers.

For the quality/complexity of the work that BigLaw firms do, and the fact that you literally spend 80% of your life at work, I think even 2 million dollars a year at the partner level is underselling yourself when you look around at what your non-lawyer peers in the for-profit world are making. The people who tanked the economy in the first place (BigLaw clients) were making in the tens of millions - at the least. I think it's the sense of everlasting job security - either by making partner or moving on to make at least 200-300K a year somewhere else - in the first place that makes someone choose to become a lawyer over other careers (this is just about the economics here and the paychecks, I'm putting aside for the moment the fact that legal work often, though not always, can be incredibly interesting and rewarding).

Suicidal is suicidal over the prospect of losing a 160K a year job (I thought starting was 165 nowadays?) when in another time - less than 2 years ago but seems like an eternity now - his/her business school counterparts would have been looking at 300K or so.

This is the flipside of the coin: everyone's blasting Suicidial for being so materialistic and telling him/her to go live in the mountains and make 50K a year and suck it up, but I don't think 160K is that much to strive for - assuming you're in this game mainly for the money and the security.

Affirmative Action? A policy first enacted in 1965 for government hiring consideration is "forcing" private law frims with private clients to hire anyone in 2009??

Are you nuts??

No non-white, non-female and/or openly gay associate is hired in a large law firm with private corp clients for "Affirmative Action" basis at ALL, never mind in 2009. There is no public sourced money to compel even the consideration of hiring of such candidates. A trip around the halls of any large law firm will tell you that.

And no amount of diversity admissions in a pubic university can get someone the GRADES it takes to be hired by a BigLaw firm.

Affirmative Action? A policy first enacted in 1965 for government hiring consideration is "forcing" private law frims with private clients to hire anyone in 2009??

Are you nuts??

No non-white, non-male and/or openly gay associate is hired in a large law firm with private corp clients for "Affirmative Action" basis at ALL, never mind in 2009. There is no public sourced money to compel even the consideration of hiring of such candidates. A trip around the halls of any large law firm will tell you that.

And no amount of diversity admissions in a pubic university can get someone the GRADES it takes to be hired by a BigLaw firm.

318=Marie Antoinette (let 'em eat cake).

327/328, see this, for example

http://abajournal.com/news/wal_mart_will_use_software_to_monitor_diversity_of_outside_counsel/
Or
http://www.law.com/jsp/ihc/PubArticleIHC.jsp?id=1208342621371

That painful sound you're hearing is you getting pwned.

322, him.

Apparently it's all the fault of non-equity partners. Well at least they're the low-hanging fruit. Really really good post at Adam Smith, Esquire with plenty of fun charts that make me regret choosing Orrick for my 2L summer even more.

http://www.adamsmithesq.com/blog/

Lawyers make too much money. Now that Wall Street is a shambles, no one can pay their hourly fees!!!

Sure, 327, just keep on pretending that you got into your private law school with 10 lower LSAT points than your peers, and into your private law firm with 0.3 lower GPA points than your peers, because of merit.

325: 199 here. I have been told that I am a handsome man (think a young Harry Belafonte) so I didn't think anything about the photographs in the beginning. As far as affirmative action getting me into biglaw, that is baloney. I was on law review, graduated with honors, etc. Or are you going to say affirmative action entitled me to artificial grade inflation? I am not crying about getting fired from biglaw. It is the manner in which they tried to do it, using the current economic crisis to justify my termination. That was a pretext. They used me. Next time you see a smiling brotha on biglaw's brochures/website, know that it is a brotha that was/is about to get played by biglaw. I have advised my attorney to turn down any offer of reinstatement or anything less than $1M. These fools thought I was asleep not knowing I saved every email, recorded every message and even some conversations that were held in the open. Oh, and get this, I was fired on MLK day.

325 sucks. Affirmative action is "racist hiring practices"!?!? That's just disgusting. I'm not paying attention to whether you mentioned your employment status but if you do still have a job at a firm, then I dare you to say that out loud at your next meeting and then count 5 seconds before your pasty white ass is on the curb. People who make gross comments on blogs should really be forced to stand by their words in public.

Firms pay lip service to "diversity" but it's not quite good enough when there were maybe three or four African-Americans in my first year class of 100 or so even though my law school was really diverse. Whatever, I'm not getting into the affirmative action debate with the likes of you. Just wanted to say that 325 sucks, that's it.

327 must be a real dumb monkey to think there is zero affirmative action ever in the private sector and that affirmative action is always mandated by the government, but that is to be expected.

336, so when you hire people based on the color of their skin that is not racist?
Oh I get it, it's only racist if it favors the white race.

335 - you sound somewhat psychotic. Makes sense why the firm "not a fit" fired you.

Part of the problem is that foreigners have been displacing homegrown U.S. lawyers (and U.S. law graduates) WITHIN the United States legal market as a result of the United States' liberal immigration policies. (I'm not even talking about the outsourcing phenomenon here.)

There is no shortage of lawyers in the United States. There wasn't a shortage before the recession--when even grads from solid, if not T10 schools, found it challenging to break into BigLaw--and there sure isn't a shortage now.

How many of you work at a firm that employs one or several foreign lawyers? My guess is that foreigners make up at least 10% of the associate and counsel ranks in major metropolitan areas in the United States. What is the magnitude of the BigLaw contraction we are witnessing? Ten to fifteen percent. Are most foreign lawyers really contributing something that special that another hardworking American lawyer or law grad couldn't? Would a grad from a Cardozo, a Pepperdine, a Boalt really not cut it? Don't we hear all the time that attorneys are fungible?

These jobs should be reserved for U.S. citizens. And yet, with the worst economic downturn in a generation, the United States continues to hand out work visas (under the H-1B quota and under the JD and LLM degree feeder system)--or turn a blind eye--to foreigners to come here and compete against U.S. citizens for law firm jobs.

One upside of this crisis could be that it causes BigLaw attorneys who have lost their jobs (and who have heretofore been the elite of American society) to develop some empathy for the have nots, to reflect on where their country's policies are leading, and to become more involved in civic affairs.

Some info on the H-1B visa program:

The Department of Labor states that the H-1B law doesn't require employers to seek local talent before recruiting abroad for their US job openings, except in limited circumstances when the employer is considered H-1B dependent:

The DOL's Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011 (pg. 35) states: "... H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."

The Federal Register, dated June 30, 2006, Section II, paragraph 4, "the statute does not require employers...to demonstrate that there are no available US workers or to test the labor market for US workers as required under the permanent labor certification program."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa

335, so because some people told you were a good looking guy, you had no reason to suspect that you were on the brochures only because you are black?

I think you've just proven why your firm thought you were an idiot.

As an aside, if you are african american and are being laid off by biglaw, do not sign onto that pittance of a severance package. The package is tied into a hold harmless and release waiver that will forbade you from bringing any cause of action against your former employer. My lawyer says I can get at least half a mil so I rejected the 6 month severance package. Chump change compared to what biglaw will have to pay for trying to play me.

340 -

If the cardozo grads are native speakers in russian / portuguese / chinese and have a fundamental understanding of those countries legal systems - then sure, a US born cardozo grad could take their place.

287 - How is laying off most secretaries, paralegals, all first and second years and having senior associates do all the low level work going persuade clients not to abandon biglaw? Clients will be charged a huge hourly rate for work that can be done at a fraction of the cost. It's being done already, hence the exodus from biglaw.

If the senior associates are going to be typing 200 mailing labels they might as well change the light bulbs, replace the toilet paper and mop up the pantry.

338: I hate you so very much. Did your school not offer conlaw or something? There are very few people who make a good argument against affirmative action, because for the most part anyone who has intellect and a nuanced understanding of American history as well as our society today is in favor of more diversity any way they can get it. Being a truly great lawyer is about problem-solving and teamwork and thinking outside the box. Ten old white men in a room who go golfing at the same country club will never be as effective in solving a problem - legal or otherwise - without the 11th person who comes from a different background...regardless of the color of his or her skin.

I'm pissed I'm even trying to explain this concept to a Neanderthal (and no, I'm not in favor of affirmative action for Neanderthals).

ps: I hate you.

340, go ahead and restrict the immigration policy, and then see what happens when other countries retaliate and all the US lawyers working abroad return home.

I would rather work with a competent foreign trained attorney than a random TTT graduate who happens to have US citizenship. Sorry you graduated from a TTT, bro.

5 is spot on.

I was a biglaw partner and left last fall for a botique. Former clients are already coming with me and I am also picking up new business. Potential clients that wouldn't return by phone calls before are now willing to talk to me. What most biglaw associates on these boards fail to realize is that your pedigree is all but meaningless once you are in practice. Clients want results - they don't care where you went to school, what journal you were on, who you clerked for, etc. Interpersonal skills go a long way. The only way to establish job security has a lawyer is to have a niche and relationships with people willing to hire you.

Leaving biglaw is the best thing I did for my career. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks the worst is over.

345, racism is defined as giving a preference for a race over another race. When Robert Mugabe took land from white farmers and gave it to blacks, it's racism.

Affirmative action is simply a type of racism that passes constitutional strict scrutiny.

Giving a preference for someone with a diverse/different background (not racist) is different from a racial preference (racist). You are a racist for assuming that just because someone has a different skin color, he must have came from a different background and must contribute a different perspective than all other white people. If diversity of opinion was so great, why don't you have affirmative action for conservatives instead of blacks for law school faculties.

346,

How many U.S. lawyers are working in India, Korea, Canada, and Israel? Let those countries "retaliate."

And are you saying there aren't not enough competent lawyers with U.S. citizenship here in America? Please.

344 - Well, you get what you pay for.

330 - 228 here. You're a lawyer, correct? Or, at least, you're some high grades bad-ass about to take the BigLaw world by storm with your yet unseen brilliance?

So you can follow the fact that "Affirmative Action" is a GOVERNMENT policy, yes?

Now, in your brilliance tell me the difference between Walmart and/or the Coca-Cola company and a government.

See, Walmart and Coca-Cola are ALLOWED to make PRIVATE decisions about who they hire or contract with. That's not "Affirmative Action".

That painful sound you hear is a mere reminder that you haven't reached your Brilliant BigLaw Bad-Ass status yet.

347 is pretty spot on. 5 would be spot on if he weren't a complete douchebag who uses his vacation time to troll the world looking to sleep with "exotic" women. I'm not convinced that 5 has quite the type of interpersonal skills I'd look for in my lawyer.

337 - "Affirmative Action" has a specific meaning. It is a policy of the government. It applies to consideration of candidates in GOVERNMENT hiring and/or in private hiring in businesses who contract for the GOVERNMENT.

If you all truly believed that Affirmative Action applied to private entity hiring with no government contracting involved, who did you think ENFORCED it on these private companies?

And while you're contemplating the identity of this unnamed enforcement arm, add in some thought about why in 44 years of "forced" hiring on these private companies that most of the partners in law firms and execs in Fortune 500 corps are still white males who are rarely veterans.

They were "forced" to hire persons of color, women, veterans and disabled persons for 44 years, right? So...where are they?

351, when Harvard or any other non-government entity makes a private decision to give a preference for more blacks, which they are not required to do by the government, that is not "affirmative action"?

Good to know.
http://www.oap.harvard.edu/pub/AAPlanSummary2007.pdf

Anybody can have an affirmative action policy. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

343,

It's a fallacy that foreign lawyers are only given firm jobs that require significant foreign language expertise or even a "fundamental understanding" of a foreign legal system. The truth is that most are ensconced in general corporate transaction work (some even in litigation) where these skills are seldom if ever needed.

To the extent these skills are needed, well, that's why you hire foreign counsel, which will probably be more competent--and cheaper--anyway. Or you train Americans for the job.

Visas should rarely be given to foreigners to come here and compete against Americans in the legal market. It simply isn't necessary.

353, please see 354 and explain how private universities can have choose to have "affirmative action" when "affirmative action" by your definition applies only to government hiring and contracting.
It is possible that the term refers to the policy itself, and the government is not the only entity that can have that policy.

Private law firms are not required to have affirmative action, but for various reasons they do so and claiming that they don't have "affirmative action" is a sign of delusion. You should check with the doctor and a copy of the English dictionary.

As a taxpayer, I have already made calls to my senators and reps. to have the banks that are represented by BigLaw and that have accepted TARP money to oversee counsel hiring practices. As a taxpayer I will not tolerate BigLaw charging $700 an hour or $300 for some green lawyer who can't wipe his ass without partner approval and be paid with my taxpaying money. I will encourage an open bidding process where smaller law firms can participate and ensure the TARP money is used wisely. I encourage others to contact your reps. and senators. BigLaw is part of the problem and we need to sever the serpent's head.

354 - Harvard University receives FEDERAL research grants. That is from the GOVERNMENT. Harvard IS a "government contractor".

http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/ofs/procurement/pro_fed.shtml

It's quite simple, guys.

Affirmative Action is a policy enacted by the federal (first) and state (eventually) governments. The argument is that all of these persons historically isolated on economic terms through institutional biases all still pay taxes to those governments. Therefore, their money should not go to the hiring of ONLY persons who are not them. Neither should their money go to private entities from the government if that private entity does not hire persons like them as a matter of standard procedure.

Therefore, the only private entities who have "Affirmative Action" obligations are entities LIKE HARVARD who accept money from the Federal Government.

If Harvard was convinced it was hurting them that badly, they'd simply turn down the Federal research grant money they get every year. They certainly don't need the money.

"Affirmative Action" has a specific meaning.

355 -- Do you want to abolish immigration completely? Because if not, the H1B system is preferrable, at least in terms of the human capital of the immigrant, to the other methods of obtaining citizenship--family-based or marriage-based green cards.

355 - do you know what made America great in the first place? It's that the BEST people from all around the world came here to compete. If you stop the visa program, you will KILL this country, and the economy will never recover.

Memo to Americans of all colors:

Stop fighting among yourselves and join together to protect yourselves from an actual problem: the legal and illegal immigration that is displacing you and your brethren from the legal market.

To the extent there is affirmative action in BigLaw, its impact on job availability is negligible compared to the impact of America's lax immigration policies. There are more foreign lawyers in big law firms in major cities than there black American lawyers.

Putting an end to the country's recklessly permissive immigrations, and calling for actual enforcement of existing laws, is a better way of creating jobs for Americans (blacks and others) than ending affirmative action.

Take some time to learn about the H-1B Visa program, the JD and LLM funnel systems, and illegal immigration.

Did all you whiners not know many of top unis in the US are government contractors?

If this sort of thing is ruining your life, I'd think you'd take the steps to learn exactly what it is.

358, dude, those government grants are not forcing Harvard to have affirmative action in its admissions. Harvard could get rid of its affirmative action admissions policy tomorrow. Get a clue.

360,

You don't seem to hold your fellow citizens in very high regard. We end immigration and the country collapses? Give us all a break. There is incredible talent here already. There is even more untapped talent, yes, even in the inner cities, that could benefit from better training. (Ending immgration will provide and incentive to the haves of the country to pass policies and fund more training.) The same "BEST" people you say have made "made America great" (I'll concede your foundational mythology for the sake of argument) are still here, or their descendents are still here.

As for foreign lawyers in U.S. law firms in particular, which was the scope of my argument, I can tell you from experience that they aren't responsible for keeping the country afloat. There are plenty of American lawyers out there--either making less money in smaller firms or markets, or out of work, or graduating with dim prospects--that could do their jobs just fine if given the opportunity. The foreign lawyers have simply displaced them.

363 - Not if it wanted to keep receiving Federal research grants it couldn't.

The conditions of accepting PUBLIC money - contributed by all of those you deem "lesser" persons - involve acting against institutional biases. Consideration MUST be given to employees AND, if applicable, attendees or fellows in your institution.

You want to get into Harvard and think it's all those most certainly "unqualified" women, persons of color, veterans and disabled persons keeping you out? Tell Harvard to stop accepting the money of those "unqualified" persons.

They haven't agreed with your analysis for over 40 years.

"Affirmative Action" has a specific meaning.

A summary of affirmative action supporters' arguments:

1. There is no affirmative action in law firm hiring today.
2. If AA did exist, it's only in public universities and public entities, not private companies.
3. If it did exist in private entities, it's only for those with government contracts.

But wait, don't law firms get government contracts too? If 3 is true, doesn't that mean law firms are subject to AA hiring?
Self-contradiction pwned.

365, so universities in California that aren't doing affirmative action admissions anymore because of state law don't get federal money anymore, right? Or are you saying federal law can be superseded by state law so they still get the federal money?

364 -- I repeat my question: Do you want to abolish immigration completely? Because if not, the H1B system is preferrable, at least in terms of the human capital of the immigrant, to the other methods of obtaining citizenship--family-based or marriage-based green cards.

The answer may be inconvenient to you. But we deserve to know.

360,

I'll take my chances with the team we've got. And I think most other Americans would, too.

366 - Learn how to summarize better. If a law firm was accepting public money as a contractor, affirmative action consideration would apply in that department.

What is so difficult to understand about this?

However, Affirmative Action application or no, there is no FORCE to hire a specific candidate involved, not even for the government. Persons of color, females, disabled persons and veterans must be CONSIDERED in hiring.

Private entities with no public contract have no such obligations becasue they have no such CONTRACTS.

Who did you people think enforced all of this "forced" hiring? The US Department of Diversity Hiring with Special Ethnic Background Check agents on the job?

So.......how about that MPRE yesterday?

370, so law firms have racial preferences in hiring or no?

372 - BigLaw? Yes, they most certainly do have racial preferences in hiring. For white lawyers. Such is obvious when you're in one.

As far as Affirmative Action contract obligations, CONSIDERATION for hiring must be given in that department.

I like to explain it to every AA whiner out there like this.

If every construction company who was to be contracted for building any piece of publicly owned infrastructure HAD to have a 51% female staff in order to get the contract - nothing would be built.

Said construction companies do not exist, because the candidates do not exist to that proportion. They are not FORCED to hire females just to get the contract.

368,

364 here. I think you are presenting somewhat of a false choice. If one must choose between either H-1B or marriage/family-based, and your objective is bringing in more professional "talent," then I would agree that the H-1B program probably is more likely to accomplish that.

Are you proposing that we take a closer look at family/marriage based immigration, too? I don't think it would be unreasonable to discuss whether that immigration should also be restricted more tha it is now. There's no shame in a country reserving work and resources for its own citizens. It's kind of logical.

But my argument that U.S. legal jobs should be reserved for American citizens should stand on its own merits. First, there is an oversupply of competent homegrown attorneys right here in our country. Second, even if we didn't have a sufficient number of competent lawyers, there is a huge pool of Americans that are barely making ends meet, are having trouble finding work, or are doing okay but could be doing even better if given the opportunity. We should take a longer-term perspective and commit resources toward educating and training our own people--rather than casting them off into the trash bin--so that they or their children might aspire to a better living. I see no evidence that the H-1B program (whether it is flooding the country with foreign lawyers or foreign computer technicians) is a temporary stop-gap toward a more sustainable economy. If anything, the source of foreign labor is a disincentive for those with means (corporations, BigLaw partners) to support policies that help their own people here at home. Third, and this is more specific to the legal field than points 1&2, in my experience I haven't seen a foreign lawyer contribute a significant "special skill" (language, for example) that translates into them being a necessity for a given law firm.

374 -- My points is that if we did away with the H1B program, that would leave the routes to citizenship being marriage- and family-based green cards. You may find that state of the world better than if we continue with present policies. For my part, I think the best reform that is not politically implausible would be to make skills a MORE important aspect of immigration. At the moment, skills-based immigration is dwarfed by the massive number of immigrants who enter because they have a family member here and, to a lesser extent, because they marry a U.S. citizen.

Full disclosure -- I am an H1B-holder at a V10 firm, doing litigation.

376 - If you don't mind disclosing a tad bit more. Nation of origin?

I'm asking out of curiosity. I've never read into this business as it's effecting the legal industry. My opinion on the H1-B as it applied to the computer industry was that it was the biggest of weapons in a flat out trade war.

I'm interested to know if this HR pilfering is continuing now in the law.

377 -- United Kingdom. But I attended law school here.

378 - Ah, OK. Then, to me, taking European lawyers is a more mutually beneficial situation.

Given the better provided benefits available in European nations, the lawyers who come here and DON'T become millionaires are a good bet to return to their nation of origin. No serious pilfering of HR from those nations going on there.

Well, maybe not-entirely-equitable "borrowing" of HR....

375,

364 here. If you posted the disclosure in 376, that was considerate. Thanks.

Driving your argument seems to be an assumption that the United States is somehow obligated to keep open its doors to a flood of workers from other countries. (Pardon the rhetoric.) Given that obligation, you argue that that H-1B route is the better filter, because it is probably more "selective" of skills/talent. To complete your argument, there is an unstated assumption that it is better to be more selective.

I don't want to focus on that second assumption, at least for now. I am curious about the first one, about this U.S. obligation. Why should the United States not reserve its resources and jobs for the people already here? At 300 million people and growing, do we need more population? Why not restrict all further immigration?

379,

In your experience, does the United States need more lawyers? If not, shouldn't we take a closer look at the visa programs from the perspective of what is good for homegrown U.S. lawyers?

380 -- That was me. There's a wealth of economic literature on whether skills-based immigration enhances human capital and thus GDP per capita. I won't get into it here, but the conclusion is generally that it does. Of course, it doesn't necessarily enhance the employment rate of existing citizens (although even that is far from clear-cut.)

But whatever the economic and social merits of immigration, it would be politically impossible, I believe, to completely abolish it. Given that it's a permanent fixture of U.S. policy, isn't it more sensible to think about how it could be improved. And in that regard, other nations are streets ahead of the U.S.

Anyone have additional information on the rumored Kirkland layoffs?

381, no, the US does not need more lawyers in a generic sense.

The US can, however, benefit from the legal experience of lawyers in other countries. There's the law as it is, of course. That can be read by anyone and worked into application by any lawyer worth his or her salt. But the personal experience of seeing the practical application in global business practices can really only come from being there.

So, yeah, I think there is a huge human resource contribution from foreign lawyers and also in US lawyers going overseas.

And, as I said, with European lawyers; those who don't make millions (which most lawyers don't) can be expected to return to their country of origin. The taxes may be higher, but the overall infrastructure benefits to the middle class are better, including non-tangible benefits like "quality of life" assurances.

I believe that we will lose MOST of the European lawyers we take in through H1-B. And, really, the US doesn't need to engage in a trade war with any EU nation over them, like it did with India for the computer industry.

382,

You are shifting the scope of the debate, which is whether the influx of foreign lawyers is (1) good for our homegrown U.S. lawyers, and (2) good for the country.

In other words, should U.S. law jobs by and large be reserved for U.S. citizens?

I argue they should be. First, there is no shortage of lawyers in this country. Second, foreign lawyers do not in general contribute a unique skill that can't be found in the U.S. market. Third, U.S. lawyers in general have a greater stake in this country and in their community here. Fourth, it is natural for a country to protect the jobs of its own people from foreign competitors.

Should foreign lawyers be laid off before homegrown U.S. lawyers are?

I argue that, when layoffs are necessary, yes. See 1-4 above. Plus, these foreign attorneys have another place to go, more options, in general, than the U.S. attorney that gets fired instead.

If we are politically constrained from restricting immigration other than the H-1B visa program for foreign lawyers and the JD/LLM funnel systems (and illegal immigration), let us at least do it there, where it makes sense. Not sure I see how that leaves us worse off.

Anyone else notice that it started with maybe 5% of associates laid off by the first firms laying people off. The next batch of firms followed with an across the board 10% associate layoff. Now, we are looking at firms with a first round laying off 15% in some cases and some firms coming with a second round that totals 15%.

385 -- I think it's more examining the debate's implications that shifting the terms. But I have to do some work now, so I will withdraw. I appreciate your points and the opportunity to have a candid and civil discussion.

To the people who are very concerned that AA has a specific meaning:

Shall we come up with a new word to describe when a big law firm hires a minority for diversity reasons and not because of their credentials? "Non-government AA," perhaps? Would that make you happy?

Because non-government AA is what we are all talking about here. And I doubt anyone would suggest that law firms do not consider diversity (e.g. skin color and sexual orientation) in their hiring.

384,

In my experience, I have not seen a foreign lawyer add a substantial "special benefit" (via legal experience in a particular foreign jurisdiction) to a firm. The theory sounds nice, but the benefits are overestimated. In practice, most of the work these foreign lawyers do is fairly standard corporate or litigation practice, most of them are junior attorneys with insufficient experience in their jurisdiction of origin anyway, and, even in the rare cases where an expert foreign perspective would helpful, a firm can seek local counsel (better expertise at a cheaper price). There's a real lack of need for this and that needs to receive greater scrutiny in this environment of scarce resources.

And even if a U.S. firm "can benefit" from a foreign lawyer, does the benefit outweigh the cost - of a job that would otherwise be held by a homegrown lawyer?

In this down time, let's:

1. fire all non-white associates;
2. fire all foreign associates;
3. fire all staffers;
4. fire all non-equity partners;
5. fire all junior associates and cancel smmer programs (if you are a senior associate); or
fire all senior associates (if you are a junior);
6. fire all pregnant associates;
7. fire all associates with young kids;

what else?

only people exactly like you yourself deserve to work in biglaw.

8. fire all fat chicks

Actually, 388, people like 327 and 373 do seem to genuinely believe that law firms do not have hiring preferences for blacks and other minorities.

It's amazing what willful ignorance can lead an idiot to believe these days.

LAWSHUCKS remains a shitty site until they make a LAYOFF TRACKER FOR HUMANS (AKA NOT STAFF)

hth

385 -- What sort of work do you do at your firm btw? That'd be interesting to know so as to give some perspective to your statements.

FWIW, I'm one of those foreign lawyers you despise so much. I'm French, got qualified in the US through the LLM route and had been practicing for 6 years in France prior to being transferred to the NY office of my (US) firm. I'm doing international corporate work in quite a specific area, which I won't get into since it would give too much infor to out me.

I am absolutely definite about the fact that I bring skills that the random US lawyer would not be able to work out. The reason for this is fairly simple: I'm staffed on matters that are relevant to my background. It can be a need for French fluency or much more often the necessity to apply French law or to take into consideration the French legal system and the way things are done over there. I'm not saying that no US homegrown lawyer could do it instead of me, but I'm fairly sure that there are not a lot of US homegrown lawyers having graduated from a French law school and practiced for a few years over there.

Depending on the work you are asked to do, it's a great asset to bring international competence to the matter, whether it's deal or litigation. Of course, if I was only staffed on US-centric matters, that would probably be different. It's also much cheaper than get a foreign counsel and the firm is much more confident to rely on someone who has been trained internally and can deliver work product in line with the firm's standards.

However, you just seem to aggregate all the foreign lawyers into a same pot, i.e. fungible with US homegrowns. It's simply not the case. You may not have the experience or the exposure to the kind of work that would allow you to realize this, but it simply is true.

And the opposite is equally right. My Paris office is half staffed with US citizens and homegrown lawyers. And this is great, because they are actually asked to bring their US competence to our work, which we need in most of our deals/matters.

Your narrow-mindedness just SCREAMS entitlement and Generation Y's inappropriate feeling that they know everything whereas they simply don't. You should not have such a strict opinion on things you can't even grasp.

332 -- The one thing Adam Smith's article and you don't take into account is non-equity partners in non-major-metro offices. Those non-major-metro office non-equity partners are, for the most part, paid less than a third or fourth year associate in a major metro office in terms of whole numbers (reportable income to the IRS), yet do not carry the same benefit costs to the firms. Those non-equity partners (who pay their own benefits) have proved themselves in terms of running a deal, managing a major litigation with successful results. Therefore, your statement is not exactly accurate that non-equity partners are the problem -- they cost less than many associates.

BigLaw Observer here. If you get hired by BigLaw, enjoy your first and second year and learn as much as you can. On your second anniversary, start looking for your next job. You third year in BigLaw will be hell. Your work will dwindle and you'll get set up for the inevitable performance lay-off late in your third year or early in your fourth year. The only way to avoid this fate is to land and sevice several major clients who pay their bills promptly. After the second year, BigLaw becomes a career-busting people eater. This pattern is obvious if one is paying attention. With a couple years of experience, you can make a lateral move to a smaller firm, become a real lawyer and have a life, too. If you must be a Partner, start your own firm.

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

Can ya'll beyotches say 400

K&L Gates has been doing stealth layoffs for months now. If the firms decides to fire openly, expect carnage. 15-20% considering all the firms they picked up lately. the firm might even use it to close an office or two.

Labor grim reaper here. Sharpening my sickle for what promises to be a very busy week culminating on Firday the 13th. Starting tomorrow I will be making my rounds at biglaw. It will be a massacre. Prepare to be severed and in some cases escorted out. Look on the bright side, you had an opportunity to work at biglaw, made some money (hope you saved some of it) and were able to earn more than 90% of Americans. You can take that to the grave.

Milbank has been picking people off a few at a time. I also hear their lit dept. is in serious trouble. And obviously there is no corporate work.

K&L Gates has been doing stealth layoffs for years. They may even have invented it.

403 is ill informed. K&L Gates has not laid off a single lawyer for economic reasons and will not do so. This websits fascintion with that firm is strange. I think a handful of former associates with grudges are doing all they can to keep this firm in the media spotlight.

There will be no layoffs at this firm. It has no debt and growing revenue and profits. The only reason a firm in this position would conduct layoffs is if their management was mean oportunist. That does not describe Pete and company.

5, 11, I call BS

407

Hilarious.

For those recently laid off associates in NYC, please click on this site which has a plethora of legal employment opportunities:

http://nycra.com/jobs.php

Good luck and Godspeed.

149; I wonder how "irrelevant" my V50-100 firm is considering they haven't frozen salaries and/or laid off large numbers of associates. While you V25'ers at Latham, White & Case, O'Melveny, etc. can prestige-whore all you want, Vault doesn't mean SHIT in this economy.

-"V50-100" incoming 3L with confirmed state date (p.s. Coke on a Sunday!!!)

411: I would trade prestige for a job.

T10 laid-off Latham first year.

Kirkland has ominous bookings as of press time? Saturday? All of Friday passed and not one layoff in the made-up assembly line from the previous post. Quit fanning the flames - there's enough bad news out there without making up crap.

411 - maybe because you're a TTT shithead doomed to a suburban pathetic life with a ridiculours change of ever making something meaningful? And you'll probably wonder some day why your wife is sucking all those V35ers' cocks while you're in the office preparing a brief for the next-door loser trying to get a divorce. That's cause they have ambition, set goals to themselves and will talk the talk much better than you could ever do in your wildest drams. BTW, your wife has a great ass.

414

less alcohol = more readable posts.

Just a suggestion.

http://abajournal.com/news/orricks_new_talent_model_3_stages_to_partner

414, I hope you're enjoying unemployment, though you should use some of that $405/week to buy more medication for your rage issues. Maybe you'll be lucky and one day Munger Tolles Olson or Irell&Manella will hire you for $25/hr as a temporary paralegal.
I doubt it though.

411=Late to the party. Enjoy your limited career and your life sentence of indentured servitude to Sallie Mae.

417 -- don't worry for me, I'm just a perfectly happy senior associate with promising prospects. I just hate people like 411 coming here and boasting about their life and showing off disdain and disrespect to 1st or 2nd years being shown the door from so-called prestige firms. This screams insecurity and is just plainly pathetic in my book. Just show some compassion, even if you end up having done a better choice than others (although I suspect that this sort of post usually comes from people who have been rejected by biglaw). There are better ways to convey the same message.

411 here. I was merely responding to 149's statement that all firms ranked in the V50-100 range are "irrelevant." Some are struggling, but some are not. In fact, some seem to be in better shape than firms within the V25.

410 - Thanks for the link to the crappy spam site. I hope desperate peeps aren't falling for the 'pay me for non-existent job listings' BS.

http://abajournal.com/news/orricks_new_talent_model_3_stages_to_partner

ALL HAIL! The death of lockstep is here!!

Can someone confirm reports of DPW layoffs?

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=946450&mc=166&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=e92c8ba4f3469790fe12f2395405e80f

419

End up having done a better choice?

Sweet Jesus. What did grammar ever do to you?

S&C will announce before April. (before the 2nd bonus)

425 is wrong. S&C is paying full 2d round bonus to all of us. There may (likely will) be cuts, but they are coming after the bonus payments.

Haha. Gotta love the likes of 424. After 400+ posts, if all you can bring to the discussion is grammar, you should join the ranks of 1st Year Suicidial. And don't get me wrong, I am not 419. This site has too many law students like you to make it worth a thought. Get back to your notebook, you douche.

427

I don't particularly care for grammar police but the poster is obviously (hopefully?) drunk. It's all well and good to direct some pointed comments to those working (still?) in V50 firms, but really, do you have to make the rest of us working in V50-100 firms look like knuckle dragging morons? They may be cocky, disdainful and short on compassion, but I'm pretty sure they aren't under the impression that "end up having done a better choice" and "doomed to a suburban pathetic life with a ridiculours change of ever making something meaningful" (what does that latter one even say?) are words that ever should be strung together and pawned off as a meaningful thought.

Not that I'm not jealous that he's drunk and I'm not. Because I am.

428, 419 is the same person as 414 and is someone at a V1-50 firm insulting those at V50-100 firms.

428 -- "Not that I'm not jealous that he's drunk and I'm not".

Welcome to the drunk world.

429

Yes, I appreciate that. I'm simply pointing out that if one wants to insult those working at higher ranked firms one really ought to make sure that one's insult is, at the very least, coherent. I still haven't the vaguest idea what a "ridiculuours change of ever" means. Perhaps it's bitingly insutling but I'll never know.

And I work at a firm that snuck into the V100 because - I don't know a merger took someone else off the list? So it's not that I don't think someone who thinks being at a V10 firm is some kind of badge of honor is a weenie, because I do. I just wish that if we're going to insult those folks we do it without looking like morons.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION - regardless of whether you think it's necessary or not--it taints those who make it under their own steam.

Blacks, hispanics and american indians will always be seen in a different light if Affirmative Action policies are in place. People will assume that they don't deserve to be there.

Rich blacks shouldn't have preference over poor whites/chinese/indians/ etc. Additional consideration should only be given to those who are poor or who have disabilities...

Law students stuck in this economic recession, do not despair. Here are some career alternative choices:

http://improveverywhere.com/images/hd17.jpg

http://images.usatoday.com/money/_photos/2007/01/22/mcdonalds.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nyw8mhEzHwU/R1CWjBVFuCI/AAAAAAAAAAc/E4TSzwR2DcY/s1600-R/hooker.jpg

I think law school probably prepared you best for the last choice.

407 - De Nile is not just a river in Africa. But keep thinking that way if it helps you sleep at night.

344: you're obviously staff. You could easily reduce the number of secretaries and paralegals.
Most associates use them for time entry/filing/documents. Word processing can do the docs. Attorneys can enter their own time. And have a few filing clerks for the filing. You'd save a LOT. Esp. b/c a lot of secretaries earn $55-60k + benefits (another 25-30% of salary).

There will be some junior associates that survive. They can do the work of paralegals.

Companies use biglaw b/c of the partners and their name brand. GCs at clients are pissed off at junior associate salaries---not so much how much partners make.

Affirmative Action Myth: Affirmative action is an African American entitlement program.

The Truth: FACT: Affirmative action benefits a broad range of people and communities that continue to face discrimination in this country, including Latino, Native, Arab, Asian and African Americans. The PRIMARY BENEFICIARIES, however, have been WHITE WOMEN.
http://aapf.org/focus/episodes/oct30.php

All of the Affirmative Action commentary needs to stop until you people do some resesarch. And for all of the "shame" it brings down on the recipients, I don't see any white women hanging their heads in shame at being the number one recipients of the program. Maybe they should all give their benefits back, and get back into the kitchen so they can walk around bare foot and pregnant like in the "good" old days - before all of these entitlement programs!

Agreed 434. I've heard it from some pretty good sources. The kind who vote. 407 is wrong. Layoffs are coming.

485 - Yes, that's the ticket. Afterall, these firms have crashing revenues because their clients put the brakes on the fat bills they had been paying. Clearly the way to bring the revenue back is to just bill the client 250/hr or more for assembling motions and/or distributions, printing labels, preparing document inventories, etc.

That'll hold onto the clients fer sure!

425/426: source for the idea that S&C pays us the supplemental bonus in April? I figured they'd string us out as long as possible (they just said "Spring 2009" in the December memo).

I also wonder if it will be lockstep within class like the normal bonus, or if they'll make this one performance based.

435 -- Paralegals and secretaries have been losing their jobs in high numbers. Sometimes they get swept up in a stealth layoff and are counted as staff, but mostly they are not counted. Their suffering deserves mention because they didn't make enough to save for extended unemployment and their severance, if any, is usually a pittance. Many of the lawyers posting here express disdain for secretaries, as if cutting them will somehow restore the Associates Happy Hour.

435 -- Junior Associates do not want to do the work of paralegals. The associates pass that work to their secretaries, or did -- when they had a secretary.

441, you seem to live in a world where the associates' work-related wants are relevant in any shape or form.

But 435 is an idiot nevertheless. GCs pissed off at overpaid associates will be even more pissed off when they are doing paralegal work.

how did this thread turn into a discussion (to use the term liberally) on affirmative action?

442 - Most GC's will never see the associates' paralegal-level work. It will be written off by the billing Partner, and the associates' effort will be remembered when performance evaluations are done. That's the problem for those who do survive a layoff.

Some black guy whined that the only reason he was laid off was because he was black.

He also thought the firm put pictures of him on the firm's brochures simply because of his good looks and not for any racial diversity-related reasons.

Schulte has not conducted any "stealth layoffs." Where is lawshucks getting its information from?

444, if the hours are written off, the partners are much better off firing the associate and having a paralegal do the paralegal-level work.

How is it silent in New York when Clifford Chance laid off the majority of its associates in New York in December?

And Paul Hastings is widely rumored to have done deep stealth layoffs at the end of last year. Have we all forgotten the infamous email already?

442: you're an idiot. Firms are definitely having 1st years do the work of paralegals--and billing for it. That's because they are effectively at the same level, except paralegals bill less.

But what you're missing is that both paralegals and junior associates are on the chopping block. So that first year better do it faster/better than a paralegal--and cut his time, if he wants to continue to get work.

443 - People are desperate and looking for a way to survive this nightmare. Suing BigLaw for discrimination by members of a protected class is a desperate reach. It's normal -- likely every laid-off lawyer and support staff person had the same thought and dismissed it after a little casual research. Still, expect to see a lot of pro se filings, where the real stories will be told. That should give everyone reason for pause.

Holland & Knight threw a welcome party for the new 111th Congress on Wednesday night and made it easy on newbie pols who haven't figured out street directions in DC. They brought the food and drink (all duly approved by House and Senate ethics committees) to the Cannon House Office Bldg. for a crowd of 400.

http://www.bisnow.com/washington_dc_legal_news_story.php?p=2742

They're Hiring!

You think it's a misprint, but we've found a practice group in DC that needs associates. Drinker Biddle's Indian Tribal Governments group is "casting its net" for talent, partner Paul Moorehead (above) tells us. The team (now at four with the recent pickup of counsel Brian Gunn) represents 30-40 tribes on transactional, environmental, lobbying and litigation matters. Paul, former chief counsel to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, has been looking for clients on the stimulus, telling us there are good provisions on housing, bridge maintenance, and healthcare.

http://www.bisnow.com/washington_dc_legal_news_story.php?p=2505

Mayer Brown;
Drinker Biddle;
Orrick
Big shout-out to great Bisnow sponsor American University Washington College of Law. Explore its legal programs with CLE opportunities. Don't miss Feb 24 lecture on Antitrust, Entrepreneurship and Innovation, and March 4 program on Arbitration. Click here or see ad to the right for more info.

Government contracts specialist Marcia Madsen of Mayer Brown isn't the type to say "I told you so." However, as chair of President Bush's Acquisition Advisory Panel from '05-'07, she alerted Washington to needed reforms—many implemented in the last two years—which are more important than ever with ballooning spending.

Her panel's report contained 80 recommendations aimed at correcting the 90's push for reduced contracting requirements and transparency. It called for a focus on competition (Congress responded by requiring more disclosure when competitive bidding wasn't invoked), beefed up personnel, and transparency to prevent abuse (more disclosure on pricing). It seems prescient now that the gov't is looking for cost-saving measures.

We suspect Marcia knows the Federal Acquisition Regulations by heart, but she broke a sample out just for show. The most controversial proposed amendment: that contractors self-report violations of the False Claims Act; failure to report can mean disbarment. It's the talk of the contracting world because private parties can enforce the rule and collect a bounty. Marcia says this could result in a huge litigation increase. (Congress is taking it up now, so stay tuned.)
They're Hiring!

You think it's a misprint, but we've found a practice group in DC that needs associates. Drinker Biddle's Indian Tribal Governments group is "casting its net" for talent, partner Paul Moorehead (above) tells us. The team (now at four with the recent pickup of counsel Brian Gunn) represents 30-40 tribes on transactional, environmental, lobbying and litigation matters. Paul, former chief counsel to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, has been looking for clients on the stimulus, telling us there are good provisions on housing, bridge maintenance, and healthcare.

Here's Paul showing us where he recently checked out a Navajo bean and potato farm which is hoping to attract a processing plant. (We're assuming Frito-Lay is on Paul's speed dial.) If that doesn't sound like big business, try this: Tribal land sits on $875B of oil and gas reserves. With the land also including the "Saudi Arabia of wind energy" in the upper plains, Paul says energy transactions will dwarf gaming revenue ($26B in '07). If he doesn't respond to your resume right away, don't take it personally—he and his wife are celebrating the birth of their third child, Helen Kate.
Meet Orrick's New Partner

Orrick's Darrin Glymph arrived two years ago from Hunton & Williams with public finance star Pauline Schneider. Not easy to do bond financing in this credit climate, but Darrin helped Orrick get rated #1 nationwide in '08 by The Bond Buyer. We took this photo right after he closed a $41 million bond deal that helps Brookings buy new digs. Other notable projects: tax-incentive deals for the Spy Museum and Mandarin Hotel.

Mayer Brown;
Drinker Biddle;
Orrick
Big shout-out to great Bisnow sponsor American University Washington College of Law. Explore its legal programs with CLE opportunities. Don't miss Feb 24 lecture on Antitrust, Entrepreneurship and Innovation, and March 4 program on Arbitration. Click here or see ad to the right for more info.

Government contracts specialist Marcia Madsen of Mayer Brown isn't the type to say "I told you so." However, as chair of President Bush's Acquisition Advisory Panel from '05-'07, she alerted Washington to needed reforms—many implemented in the last two years—which are more important than ever with ballooning spending.

Her panel's report contained 80 recommendations aimed at correcting the 90's push for reduced contracting requirements and transparency. It called for a focus on competition (Congress responded by requiring more disclosure when competitive bidding wasn't invoked), beefed up personnel, and transparency to prevent abuse (more disclosure on pricing). It seems prescient now that the gov't is looking for cost-saving measures.

We suspect Marcia knows the Federal Acquisition Regulations by heart, but she broke a sample out just for show. The most controversial proposed amendment: that contractors self-report violations of the False Claims Act; failure to report can mean disbarment. It's the talk of the contracting world because private parties can enforce the rule and collect a bounty. Marcia says this could result in a huge litigation increase. (Congress is taking it up now, so stay tuned.)
They're Hiring!

You think it's a misprint, but we've found a practice group in DC that needs associates. Drinker Biddle's Indian Tribal Governments group is "casting its net" for talent, partner Paul Moorehead (above) tells us. The team (now at four with the recent pickup of counsel Brian Gunn) represents 30-40 tribes on transactional, environmental, lobbying and litigation matters. Paul, former chief counsel to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, has been looking for clients on the stimulus, telling us there are good provisions on housing, bridge maintenance, and healthcare.

Here's Paul showing us where he recently checked out a Navajo bean and potato farm which is hoping to attract a processing plant. (We're assuming Frito-Lay is on Paul's speed dial.) If that doesn't sound like big business, try this: Tribal land sits on $875B of oil and gas reserves. With the land also including the "Saudi Arabia of wind energy" in the upper plains, Paul says energy transactions will dwarf gaming revenue ($26B in '07). If he doesn't respond to your resume right away, don't take it personally—he and his wife are celebrating the birth of their third child, Helen Kate.

http://www.bisnow.com/washington_dc_legal_news_story.php?p=2505

The bottomline on Affirmative Action - It's a crappy idea.
If you want to help the poor or disabled or folks with crackheads for daddies/mommies, then do so. Most likely they are poor.

But don't help rich black kids/ well-educated hispanics just because of their skin color. That's crap. Use money as the measuring stick.

Until schools are colorblind, I'll always believe that blacks who come from Harvard/Yale/Columbia/Biglaw are just dumb and don't deserve what they got...

They know it too and so do the partners and their peers. That's why they are tainted as being second class lawyers...everyone thinks they got there by being black/hispanic/etc....

LOL

Everyone should click on 451's link - the ad for "quality construction" features K&L DC's backwards installed "lobby art."

I love irony.

http://www.linerlaw.com/

worst website ever

454-Bigot who can eat a dick.

454,

I don't disagree with you in principle, but people of lower socioeconomic status are not a protected class.

458, schools are free to give admissions preferences to poor people, so I am not sure what is your point.

-- not 454

454

I don't know why you are targeting a mere segment of that population. Without fail the worst work product that crosses my desk each year is from some kid from an Ivy League school.

I'd think it was funny if it weren't so bothersome.

457: you're probably some rich black kid who just wants a freebie. You just ooze DUMB. But I can't get angry at you, it's like trying to pick a fight with a retard...

Actually, I'm a minority too, just not one of the few blessed groups. I just look at blacks/hispanics/american indians and think they're second rate. If some of the blacks/hispanics/american indians got there just because (and I assure, I know of a few), then even the ones who didn't will get painted with the same brush. You can't trust where they come from (i.e. ivy league schools) because they didn't really deserve to be there---at least a few of them---so all of them will get pushed down to the lowest common denominator. Because no one can tell who's the real deal and who's just right skin color...

http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=890

It is undeniable, however, that the firm's mishandling of Larry Mungin left him broken and disillusioned, off the corporate partnership track and instead practicing law as a temp-lawyer for $14 an hour.

458: my point is that you help people who have particular hardships (i.e. poverty, disabilities). That help should be colorblind.

Affirmative action advocates always want to seem to help rich blacks/hispanics/american indians. That shouldn't be allowed because they aren't as worthy as someone poor or someone with a disability who's not a black/hispanic/american indian.

I want a color blind admissions process for schools because, let's face it, the top schools are where Biglaw associates come from.

461-you think every white kid who goes to any ivy school is there b of merit??? I'll give you one guess who comes to mind right off the bat. You're an abject moron and i dont say that b you are racist scum. I say it b your argument is dog shit and apparently you are the only person on this blog who oozes dumb.

464; at my firm (V25), it is pretty clear who the AA hires are; they are basically isolated from certain projects / partners. No one trusts their work, and everyone knows why they are there. Total waste of $ if you ask me. Hire people on the merits, not because they look good on the cover of recruiting brochures. The shame of it is, you have really qualified minority attorneys who can out-lawyer any ivy league white kid, but because of the incompetent AA hires, they are looked down upon.

If you have been laid off or are just very stressed about the current job situation, I recommend this essay:

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-947-2,00.html

In particular I enjoyed this account of Henry David Thoreau's two years spent at Walden Pond:

"It was in March of 1845 that Thoreau decided to move out on the banks of Walden Pond and spend two years trying to figure out what life was all about. He settled on a piece of property owned by his good friend Ralph Waldo Emerson. He purchased an old shanty from a railroad worker, and tore it down. From the lumber from the shanty and the lumber from the woods, he constructed his own cabin. He kept meticulous financial records, and he concluded that for a home and freedom he spent a mere $28.12. He planted a garden, where he sowed peas, potatoes, corn, beans, and turnips to help sustain his simple life. He planted two and a half acres of beans with the intent of using the small profit to cover his needs. Small profit indeed: $8.71.

"Thoreau lived quite independent of time. He had neither a clock nor a calendar in his little cabin. He spent his time writing and studying the beauties and wonder of nature that surrounded him, including local plants, birds, and animals. He did not live the life of a hermit—he visited the town of Concord most days, and he invited others to come into his cabin for enlightening conversations. When the two years ended, he left his cabin behind without regret. He considered the time he had spent there a proper amount of time to accomplish his purpose—to experience the spiritual benefits of a simplified lifestyle. He also felt he had other life experiences ahead of him. It was time to move on and explore other opportunities.

"From his experiences at Walden Pond, Thoreau determined that there were only four things that a man really needed: food, clothing, shelter, and fuel."

To those who have lost jobs, I feel for you and wish you the best of luck.

Affirmative Action isn't just a government policy. The people who keep saying it has a "specific meaning" and only refers to government action, are retarded. AA means ANY policy, private or public, that that takes gender, race, or ethnicity into account in an attempt to promote equal opportunity.

This one's for you Dave Gordon!

*kills self*