2nd

these pretzels are making me gay

post 3 is making me laugh

The Family Research Council can suck a fart out of my ass.

I have been having nightmares about Latham every night. I don't know when this pain will ever end. They act like they did us a favor, but this has just been incredibly traumatic and hurtful. Trust me Latham management, there was good reason for the unspoken rule that you try to protect 1st years.

-Laid off Latham 1st year

whine whine whine

Milbank will the next firm to do mass layoffs and defer start dates for a year. MARK THIS POST.

Shut up 7 you sound like a sociopath.

Sidley didn't lay off any first years. Isn't it bad that the standard for firms is whether their layoffs were less sucky?

8, i would be surprised if Milbank didn't do layoffs. Any firm that's transactionally focused without well developed lit and bankruptcy practices is effed in the A right now.

10, why could Sidley protect their 1st years while Latham couldn't?

12, obviously because Sidley first years are more useful than Latham first years, who are worthless.

Who knew that people drawn to a fratty firm would turn out to be not very capable.

Bullshit 13, very very good people were laid off by Latham.

And there are plenty of people at Latham who aren't fratty douchebags.

Shut up 13 you sound like a sociopath. I hope Latham hires you then lays you off.

Ltham would not hire me cause i'm not a douche fratty turd, but that's fine, i'm happy at my V5.

-- 13

Latham's motto: WORK HARD PLAY HARD

well now, except for the "WORK HARD" part.

11,

Milbank does have well developed lit and bankruptcy practices. Though they prob will do layoffs eventually.

if my firm hasn't had any layoffs yet does that mean i'm less likely to get no-offered this summer?

*sends fruit basket to hiring partner in an effort to get a leg up on my fellow summer associates*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Lulz 16. I know the V5 are bloated with attorneys and light on work. You'll be laid off soon enough.

I wish my firm would hire some of these laid off attorneys. We're not even half way through March yet, and I've already billed 131 hours.

21, give me a job.

-Laid off Latham 1st year

What kind of work, 21?

17, and the play hard part

20 -- don't cry sweetie, i'm just fine, really. How's COBRA btw?

-- 16

I want some of the Koolaid that 25 is drinking!

21- where are you?? I'd like to send in my resume

With these many recent lay-offs from BigLaw, I think it would be good to find out why some of these law firms are continuing to have their partners retreat at fancy 5-star resorts. It truly is insensitive of these firms and partners to continue to have these retreats with their golf tee-times, massages and spas, and fancy meals, while those of us who were let go due to the "ecomony" have to figure out how we are going to pay our rent, mortgages, car notes, health insurances, food, children's tuitions, etc. Yes, we understand that these lay-offs were a necessity and it was a business decision, but to still move forward with these retreats that without a doubt can cost upwards of $3 million or more is pure evil. I'm certain the clients they serve would like know how their increased rates are being put to use. They should be exposed.

"Let them eat cake"..as she said..and off her head went..These law firms should take a lesson from Marie Antoinette.

Whoa!

I second 28's suggestion. This info should be distributed both at OCI and to the firm's clients.

Folks, Sidley took the Latham Massacre as a sign that it could now do the unthinkable (at least in was in previous downturns): conduct significant, public layoffs. It was no doubt a tough decision for Sidley, which is generally oriented in such a way as to avoid such a move at all costs.

But the flood gates are now open. Last week's events should have associates at MB, W&S and J&B (and Katten, etc.) very worried. (We know that something is already afoot at K&E, and should be playing out soon, which likely also factored in to Sidley's reluctant expullsions.)

LOL at Sidley 1st years being more "useful" comment. Or ... not really because its dumb as hell (or probably just meant to provoke).

Sidley simply made a choice based on the fact that first years layoffs would make them take a beating in the media besides just being more "wrong" ... THEN they got some of the 2nd years instead. They will get some more soon, as their new review process is just starting where they have their first midterm reviews with forms due soon and will come down in June. Hell, they might get the first years at that point under a "performance" review under the veil of you had 6 months then give them less or no severance where it is just like they laid them off now with 4 months.

BUT still much props to Sidley in not getting the first years and giving them some time to get compensation and "experience" ... and if they were smart a way to try to make sure they make the cut or at least prepare for the real possibility of being backdoored (pun intended) by the partners

We should also make a chart showing 1st year layoffs. It's important for law students to know which firms are going to throw you into the fire after only a few months.

No partner retreat for Sidley this year.

Not everyone is bathing in shit, sweetie, but i would not expect a Lathamite to think before posting. They don"t teach that in frats, do they? Look forward to seeing your resume! Cheers!

-- 25

Why does having a partner retreat matter? They're the ones paying for it. Though it might make the partners themselves question the firm's management a la Heller.

35, you are a disgusting, pathetic creature.

36, law students and clients can decide whether they care or not. the info should be available.

Paul Hastings is having their retreat in Carlsbad in 2 weeks.

Latham having any retreats?

28: so you're saying that partners' shouldn't spend their own money on luxuries because you are out of work?

41: I am saying be more sensitive to the times..scale it down..

32, you're right, Sidley was very classy for protecting their first years. I am just so incredibly devastated by my layoff and I don't know how I'm going to be able to pick up the pieces from this.

-Laid off Latham 1st Year

The 149 at Hogan, at least according to that article, was voluntary buyouts offered to staffers. You have this under stealth layoffs.

41, it's very AIG like to say you have to take drastic measures that hurt so many other people because times are head and then go ahead and spend money like their's no tomorrow.

If the firm wants to be like AIG fine, but the people have a right to know about it.

Hey 6, Here's a real nightmare: Proskauer laid off more than a hand full of first years back in December, gave 2 months sev minus the remaining balance of the summer advance

I know I know that they're a TTT firm so hold your comments, but when we went there the expected pecuniary compensation was supposed to be just like the other BigLaw firms, other than Wachtell

I'm with 28: My firm has (so far - at least to my knowledge) avoided the layoffs but has cut back on retreats/offistes/out of state CLEs/etc. Not saying I'm safe, because I don't think anyone can say that right now. But I would definitely like to know as a law student/associate which firms are willing to hold back on layoffs until absolutely necessary as opposed to which will dump associates and still spend on luxuries not geared toward devloping the client base of the firm/work/etc. I'm very glad to be at one of the former right now.

Paul Hastings laid off first years in San Diego. Place is quickly becoming a ghost town.

48: I hear that their retreat is taking place at the Four Seasons.

6 / 32, I'm very sorry. No one deserves what happened. Your feelings are OK and perfectly appropriate.

46, I'm very sorry to hear about what happened to 1st years at Proskauer. The partners there are clearly dirty A-holes.

-Laid off Latham 1st Year

31 -- Jenner appears to be sticking to "performance related" secret layoffs instead of taking the high road and acknowledging that it's the economy. They've been laying people off for at least 8 or 9 months now with 3 months severance.

The clients should leave the overpriced firms and hire the laid off senior associates who were doing the real work anyways.

28--Retreats are planned and contracts with resorts are signed long in advance of the actual event. There are severe penalties for cancellation. Often times it makes no economic sense to cancel. If they are going to have to pay for a substantial portionof the costs, they might ast well go ahead use the accomodations.

54, firms have been hurting since September, so there's no reason for them to have trips booked now.

45 said, "the people have a right to know about it."

AIG? Seriously? Please tell me that you realize we are not talking about public companies here. You have no right to know how partners spend their money, you twit. Should partners have a right to scrutinize your spending habits before deciding whether or not to give you a raise?

You have a right to turn down the job if you are stupid enough to do so. That's about it.

Look, if you lost your job, I am very sorry. I wish you the best of luck. But to complain about the partners' spending and what they could do to keep you there? As if you would act any differently. In fact, look back on your time at your firm or at your law school - did you consider shaping your actions around what would be best for those who may be passed over in order for you to even be achieve that success? Doubtful, so best of luck with that job search, but don't blame partners for doing what they have always done - look in the mirror.

54, Covington canceled its all attorneys retreat. It's had zero layoffs (and has announced that none are forthcoming) and has not frozen salaries and is actually having a fairly good year (and profits were up 10% for 2008). The summer program and 3L hiring appear to be proceeding as usual as well.

56, stfu. partners are obviously unable to keep this shit quiet. their own associates are happy to rat them out.

48 - didn't PH San Diego just move to new bigger offices?

Congratulations White & Case. You have finally achieved your goal of global pre-eminence!

White & Case: the pre-eminent layoff lawfirm.

54 - that's true.

Weil booked a partner retreat in Arizona, decided to change it to a Corporate Dept retreat instead, and then decided to cancel it all together and give the hotel rooms (already paid for by the deposit) to associates and staff for free for those days.

58- Covington is actually hiring 3L's? Sounds like the only firm that is doing that these days.

How about giving those hotel rooms to the laid-off employees and their families? Now that would be great PR for the firms.

59, you miss my point. 45 is calling for regulatory oversight and comparing the partners to the directors at AIG. "The people have a right to know!" Whether partners can keep their spending quiet or not has nothing to do with requiring disclosures so inane 2Ls can have better information come OCI time.

I wish some market leader big lawfirm (i.e. Latham) would cut first year pay already (and significantly - 120k)!

@62, Weil = class act
Definitely a firm on the way up, prestige and otherwise

56 and 57 are partners at law firms- STAY OFF THIS SITE AND GET BACK TO WORK AND MAKE SURE YOUR FIRM IS STILL RUNNING!!! Of course it's a partners fault if associates get laid off- because they have not brought in enough work to keep the firm's books in good shape.

Hey Law Students:

WilmerHale hasn't laid anyone off. If you're at a top 10 school and have a personality, we might hire you.

63 - maybe it's just current clerks, actually.

-58

31, Katten Chicago and NYC have been doing performance layoffs for the last 6 months - mostly corporate and FSG, but others, too. They are also hiring without abandon in BK partners and associates - just the way they did for FSG when times were good. They can look forward to being performance laid-off in 18 months.

To be fair, all Chicago-based firms are laying people off stealthily - can't admit failure.

58/70- 1L here and would love to work at Covington (assuming we still have on-campus interviews by September). So it sounds like the firm is still pretty stable this year?

65 -- Not 59 here. You have a point that partners are not like directors/ shareholders of public companies, but OCI certainly has the right to know about practices at large law firms, firm culture and partner habits, and to disseminate all such information to its students. In fact, this is their job you conceded asshole

Yes, biglaw partners certainly have all the leverage these days and from what I've seen feel like gods. But have no doubt that the economy will turn and if there's any justice at all the several firms who feel and act like all they're doing is getting rid of bad investments without thinking twice about it, will feel the pain, in economic and other terms

I'm so sick of this shit. Layoff this, layoff that. Fuck it. Everything happens for a reason. If you got laid off, blame the economy, blame Bush, blame something or someone to make you feel better.

Of course, none of this really concerns me.

WLRK 1st year Golden Boy

I am so depressed.

-Laid Off Latham 1st Year

you'll have better days, 75. If you made it into L&W, you're certainly smart and well educated. Just hang on, give all you have and look for a new gig, whether public interest or private. Lots of people have handled lay-offs and yet surfaced a stronger, more determined person. Keep your hopes up, I am sure you will end up fine.

75, I am so sorry for you. Hang in there. Something better will come your way.

21 here. Bankruptcy work. We're hiring people with bankruptcy experience.

I wish someone would just put me out of my misery

am i the only one who thinks 75 was meant as a mock of the above poster claiming to be a former Latham associate?

thanks a lot 80 you cruel prick

-75

75, I was laid off by Latham years ago. Back then I thought my career was over. I had no idea how myopic that was.

Anyway, in a way it was a blessing. That place is SO self-obsessed. And "frat culture" is SO right on. I remember walking into a party at my first firm retreat and there was a long table of lawyers playing quarters. That stupid drinking game you play in high school, not even college. Plus all those stupid emails "come on down to X's office at 5 and watch him eat 30 donuts in 60 seconds." It was so nauseating.

82's description of Latham sounds great, wish they were hiring

Paul Hastings has been laying people off for well over a year in all offices. Look at the attorney head count and do the numbers. Also, many partners have been de-equitized. Their days are numbered - usually 2 years to bring in business or pack your bags.

75 / Laid Off Latham 1st Year,

Like 76 said, hang in there! I know how it feels. I was laid off from my long-time in-house job when my Fortune 100 employer imploded in the dot-com melt-down. These things “aren’t supposed to happen” to lawyers with Ivy League J.D.’s and great resumes, and especially not to me!

I won’t sugar coat things; I spent the next 5 years either unemployed or temp’ing. You are in a slightly different position as a first year, I know, for better and for worse. But my point is, eventually, finally, when I was pretty much at the end of my rope, I found a real job again at a really great mid-sized firm that was open-minded enough to hire someone like me. (They actually do exist. Who’d’ve thunk?)

You just have to do whatever it is you can possibly do to pay your bills and keep your skills up until things improve. Be as flexible as you need to be; maybe look at interesting international gigs with USAID or an NGO, things like that. Don’t be proud; if you need to substitute teach or temp as a secretary from time to time to pay the bills, just do it, until things improve. (I can’t really advise on student loans, but if those are a big problem for you, there must be ways you can get some forbearance.)

Lean on your friends and family for psychological support, or maybe your church or synagogue if you have one. And if you’re really truly depressed, don’t be embarrassed about it; it happened to Winston Churchill, and it can happen to the best of us. Ask your doctor or clergyperson to point you at some professional help.

Just remember, as bad as it seems, worse things have happened in the history of the world. You’ll get through this!

Unemployed or temping for 5 years? If that's what I have to look forward to I might as well just kill myself now.

-75

1st years are awfully whiny. It's likely that they'll get laid off. They are a huge drag on firm profits.

The balance is always between PPP and having capacity.

I think layoffs only marginally affect firms. Esp. if lots of firms are doing them. A $160k salary and firm prestige are too compelling. Case in point: no one remembers the layoffs from 8 years ago.

Also, for that matter, it's irritating to hear 3Ls whine. Firms are either going to: 1. do nothing, 2. defer, or 3. rescind offers. And there's nothing you can do about it, so why waste everyone's time whining?

Frankly, law firms only continue to not rescind offers and continue with their summer programs to show that they are viable. Otherwise, you wouldn't cut first years today to bring in newbies in September.

Instead of focusing on whether firms had layoffs and spent $ on partner retereats or had layoffs and didn't have retreats, why don't you focus on the firms that aren't laying off? If I was still in school that's what I would be doing. That, and studying my ass off.

Speaking of which, are law schools just complete snake pits these days? I went to a pretty good school and things were always really collegial and friendly.

75, are you thinking of killing yourself? are you thinking of putting yourself out of your misery?

75,

I understand your sentiment. Getting laid off in a bad economy does indeed suck.

I hope your experience turns out to be better than mine. (It may well be. You're a lot younger than I am, and it's a lot holder for 40 something attorneys without business to find work than it is for younger ones.)

But in fact, as bad as it sounds, I did pay my bills (my best contract gig paid $160K for a year and a half), and I did claw my way back into a decent job I like.

As I said, worse things have happened in the history of the world.

-85

75,

I understand your sentiment. Getting laid off in a bad economy does indeed suck.

I hope your experience turns out to be better than mine. (It may well be. You're a lot younger than I am, and it's a lot harder for 40 something attorneys without business to find work than it is for younger ones.)

But in fact, as bad as it sounds, I did pay my bills (my best contract gig paid $160K for a year and a half), and I did claw my way back into a decent job I like.

As I said, worse things have happened in the history of the world.

-85

P.S. 75, that's $160K / year for a year and a half. And sorry everybody else for the double post.

I wish I had more hands, so I could give these layoffs four thumbs down!

Is Covington doing so well because it never became so leveraged like Latham and Orrick? Or is it because it's in DC?

haha at 93. love it.

75, you haven't answered my question about killing yourself. what should we think? should we be concerned?

-89

85 - searching for 5 yrs, wtf, are you f** serious??

89, I hope you are merely expressing your sincere concern in an inartful way.

75, if you are indeed seriously thinking desperate thoughts, please call one of your friends or relatives and talk to them about it. As bad as it is to be laid off, you really can put the pieces back together. Believe me, if I could do it, as badly as my career got messed up, so can you!

Kill self is plan B. We'll see how the job search goes.

-75

OK, 75. As long as kill self is not Plan A. Thanks for your reply!

--89

If I were to kill myself, I'd first bang as many women as possible without protection. And possibly without their consent too. Zing!

101 nasty

97,

Sorry to disappoint, but yes.

Legal temp'ing can be something of a trap, and hard to get out of once you've started. So if you do find yourself in the position of having to do it, even a long-term gig that pays very well, it's best never to let your search for a real job flag, so you can get out of the temporary attorney business as quickly as possible!!

IMHO, it's really a pretty abusive system, designed to divorce you from the amount you would have received in benefits and pay it over to some temporary agency. I once saw my agency's statement on my employer's desk - 1/3 of what he paid every week went to the headhunter, only 2/3 to me!

60:

Yep. I don't think they were using all of it before the layoffs and they have been stealthing people in IP and Corp since last fall.

LMAO @ 101 -- I hardly laugh out loud on the web, but that was funny!

105 nasty

Hey 75: 80 here - reread my post; I wasn't being a prick, I was merely saying I thought someone was impersonating you. I'm sorry you lost your job, but you're not alone. Don't make this a pity parade - get off your ass and do something about it...that is the ONLY way to look at it. Sorry if that is harsh, and if you need words of kindness, there are plenty of those above. This is advice that will help you - use it, don't use it. Either way, I wish you the best of luck - and stop blaming everyone else for your misfortune...I hope you don't do that to friends and family who are struggling right now as well.

P.S. to 97,

Over the 5 years following my lay-off in the dot.com bust, I worked one 18-month contract gig, one 1-year contract gig, and was unemployed for 18 months. These contract assignments were not document review projects; it was solid legal work, for corporate employers who (like most corporate employers who hire temps) simply didn't want to commit to actual headcount.

But still, there's a stigma associated with even the best kinds of contract work, which makes it harder to find a real job afterward. And the longer you do it, the further you fall (in the words of a leading New York outplacement counselor who’s a friend of mine) “down the contract attorney food chain.” Not to mention the fact that you get treated like a 2nd (or 8th) class citizen, which will be particularly unpleasant for you if you’re used (like many of us) to being T-Rex in the food chain.

So while you can pay the bills by temp’ing for the short to medium term, and you may well have to do it, never forget that it is a trap you need to get out of ASAP, so you can’t let your real job search flag.

You might be thinking, “Breaking news from the Employment Law Journal Duuh, there!”, but trust me. If you’ve been pounding your head against a brick wall for a year and a half, and you come up with a nice $150K contract gig you work at for 9 hours a day plus a 2 hour commute, it’s really, really easy not to spend that additional 4 to 6 hours continuing to pound your head against that same wall every night. But you really do need to do it, which is why it’s really important to keep up your morale throughout. Really.

I sincerely hope that it is easier for all of you out there who’ve just been laid off, and that you never have to contemplate the nuances of long-term contract work. Quite possibly it will be; the younger you are, the easier a job hunt should be, and I think most of you are probably still young’uns…

-85 (& 103 & 91 & 98, and don’t I feel that old now!)

one hundred and ninth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

73--What you fail to understand is that in their firms the partners (at least the managing partners--the true decision makers) ARE gods. The hold all of the power. Associates and law students, if they are lucky, serve at thier pleasure. You have NO power and someday, if you are one of the lucky few who make partner, are not going to be willing to yield that power to young smucks who have not made the sacrifices, put in their time and who do not understand the operations of a firm.

46- Are you telling us that Proskauer fired 1st years and only gave them the equivalent of about a 2 weeks severance?

110, lol. most PARTNERS, especially OMPs, don't understand how to run a firm.

I've been noticing that Kash and Lat have been fucking up in their posts quite frequently, but the dudes that comment on this site immediately blame Elie. Now I know Elie isn't qualified to do anything except inhale ho-hos, but it seems to me that you guys are a bit racist (or you just think disgustingly obese people are inferior)

I've been noticing that Kash and Lat have been fucking up in their posts quite frequently, but the dudes that comment on this site immediately blame Elie. Now I know Elie isn't qualified to do anything except inhale ho-hos, but it seems to me that you guys are a bit racist (or you just think disgustingly obese people are inferior)

112--Most likely the only thing you know about law you read in a text book.

Seems like lots of people are in the same boat as me....

COVINGTON DOES NOTHING BUT LOW-RATE REGULATORY WORK. It's stable, boring, unprofitable crap. "The Lawyer" out of the UK had a study a few months ago on litigation rev RPL, RPP, etc.. Remember -- this is just for litigation. here are the stats:

COVINGTON:
LIT REV AS % OF TOTAL: 54%
# LIT PARTNERS: 178
# LIT LAWYERS: 538
REV PER LIT PARTNER: $1.24MM
REV PER LIT LAWYER: $416K

FOR PERSPECTIVE, CRAVATH:
LIT REV AS % OF TOTAL: 48%
# LIT PARTNERS: 35
# LIT LAWYERS: 175
REV PER LIT PARTNER: $8.45MM
REV PER LIT LAWYER: $1,690K

FOR SOME MORE PERSPECTIVE, LATHAM:
REV AS % OF REV: 35%
# LIT PARTNERS: 190
# LIT LAWYERS: 636
REV PER LIT PARTNER: $3.69MM
REV PER LIT LAWYER: $1,101K

LET'S DO ONE MORE, TO PROVE IT'S NOT A DC THING - WILMERHALE:
REV AS % OF REV: 50%
# LIT PARTNERS: 85
# LIT LAWYERS: 450
REV PER LIT PARTNER: $5.5MM
REV PER LIT LAWYER: $1,045K

I'm not sure how in the hell Covington keeps its rep. They must have awesome marketing folks. But these numbers show that it's a sleepy, low-end firm whose days are over. The magazine apparently had to change the damn scale from millions to thousands for Rev Per Lit Laywer just to accommodate Covington!

113,114 = Elie

I just got the letter saying my firm is going from a 9 week to a 6 week summer program. Should I kill myself now?

119, yes.

Things are tough all over but this bullshit about offing yourself because you got laid off has got to stop. With some of your free time why don't you volunteer for an afternoon at a dialysis clinic or a pediatric cancer ward and spend some time around some people who are truly fighting to survive? That might give you some perspective on what it really means for life to be hard and how far ahead you really are in the game. If you're really having suicidal thoughts, go get some counseling immediately. Otherwise stop being a drama queen -- it's disrespectful and makes you look like a whining little douche who coasted through a T10 prep school, a T10 college, and a T10 law school to land at one of the top firms in the country, and now has no idea how to handle adversity. Grow a pair, suck it up, and figure it out like almost everyone else in the country will be doing for the next couple of years.

55--You obviously have no idea how the hospitality industry works. It is also obvious that you have knowledge of how and when decisions are made for retreats. Six months is nothing in the planning of these events.

121 sounds like a self righteous douche

120 - Thanks. 119.

Blammo!!

These suicide "jokes" are not funny. Are you not aware how harmful comments like these can be? Apart from the fact that they're sophomoric and disgusting...

21, those hours are closer to average for half a month for a normal economy. They are nothing special.

125 speak for yourself. I'm rather enjoying the suicide jokes.

First ITT to eat a gun.

119 and 120, eat Elie's feces after he's been on an all night chili binger.

Hey drama queens who are contemplating suicide:
Student loans are discharged upon death.

That is all.

Sophomores are the most likely to commit suicide.

Hold me you fuckers. I just want some support.

I have a job with the federal government that pays me a salary well over six figures. I got out of Biglaw right when the shit hit the fan. Ha ha ha ha. See you fuckers in the funny pages. Losers

123 sounds like someone who coasted through a T10 prep school, a T10 college, and a T10 law school to land at one of the top firms in the country, but hasn't been laid off yet.

133 i actually had quite the hard knocks life, probably much harder than yours, before getting into a good law school and then what i thought was a good firm.

completely agree with 33.

this post 135? i completely agree

33 Posted by guest | Permalink
Saturday, March 14, 2009 5:10 PM

We should also make a chart showing 1st year layoffs. It's important for law students to know which firms are going to throw you into the fire after only a few months.

Elie, please make said chart.

Are any midlevels or senior associates going to start their own firms?

second to eat a gun

When will law students and cite checkers, er, 'attorneys' with less than 3 year experience, learn they don't deserve anything and are not entitled to squat? These comments are a joke on this post. You deserved to get laid off if you all really believe this. I hope the partners drive by your parents house in new cars daily and honk at you living in the basement.

139, stfu

Let's pretend that glorified secretaries/proofreaders/document-shufflers who happened to have sat through 3 years of law school lectures deserve to be paid four times the US median household income, even though they have no useful work-related skills (law schools are actually proud of this), because otherwise people like 140 might get their feelings hurt.

third to eat a gun

I can't take this anymore. I. Am. So. Pathetic.

143, me too

Don't get too worked up about partner retreats. This will be the last all expenses paid trip to a fancy resort for many a partner. An associate getting $40k more than his price on the open market is one thing. A deadbeat partner getting $400k more than he's worth is something altogether different. It's not just bad economics it's corrosive. There's not only the problem of him riding in the wagon while others pull there's the problem of him lowering the draws of those most vital to the firm's future - the people who are the most marketable and most sought after by other firms.

The last recession was mild and the turnaround quick and that meant many firms were able to avoid making the hard choices. This is different. We're seeing lots of resumes from partners who are supposedly stars at their firms yet they have no portables and are willing to take $250k and an income partner position. It's change you can believe in.

assuming a minimum salary of 160k/year, that's at least $436,960,000 of attorney salaries up in smoke.

Elie, do a break out for 1st years. I'll get you started. Latham NY laid off 33 out of 61 1st years.

33 out of 61??!! DAAAAAAAAAAAMN!!!!

Laying off first years is harsh--but to be brutally honest I don't see how it is all that much more harsh than laying off a second year, or a third year, etc. Any junior/low-midlevel will still have student loans (even if they have paid down some, have nearly the same monthly payments) and probably don't have enough experience/contacts to strike out on their own.

I'm guessing, though, that firms aren't looking at what is harsh: they are looking at what is good business. And with first years making the same amount as second years (at least at those firms that have frozen, a la Latham), it makes short term bottom line sense to lay off first years (who know less and are at a lower billable rate). If the firm does not anticipate needing as many second- or third- years a few years from now, they don't have a long term incentive to grow their first years into second- and third- years. Etc.

In short: this economy isn't good for anyone--first, second, third, whatever years--period.

Am crossing my fingers for all of us that things get better soon.

would it be poor taste to send a partner a box containing human feces? the fucker revoked my offer and I am totally screwed.

139..I'll be driving to your house after you leave for work and will be having sex with your wife..

150 as long as it's anonymous you should be fine

150-while you are at it, send a dead rat too.

134 -- I doubt it, or you would have agreed with post 121 in the first place. And not making the varsity lacrosse team at prep school does not qualify as a hard knocks life.

i never thought prestige points were that important but they actually seem to buy you some job security. although Davis and Latham were v10 i guess. But for the most part, the most prestigious firms so far have not done massive Latham or White and Case style cuts.

154 i felt like shit my whole life and my entire sense of self worth was based on this. don't give me your stupid crap.

149, what we need to do then is make it bad business for them to screw over the first years by making sure to remind everyone again and again that they have done this. If it's going to hurt recruiting for a long, long time, then they'll think twice before doing it again.

Can someone confirm that Latham laid off 33 out of 61 first years? That seems out of whack.

New York to $100K!!

Time to cut down on the ridiculously exhorbitant salaries paid to newies who don't know jack and much of whose time has to be written down. If the overinflated salaries of baby lawyers were brought down back to more realistic and sustainable levels, there would be the need to massacre so many of them. But since the firsties expect to be paid a total comp of $200K when they add little to the bottom line during what really is an on the job training period, in tough economic times, they need to be pushed out. So out they are going.

The fools who are now pushing to stay at $160K or increase to $190K are the engines of their own professional doom.

159 -- amen. This is really the most annoying pattern within Generation Y, they have such a sense of entitlement while they don't know jack yet! This is ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong though. I am not happy that they are facing bad times and getting hurt, no one deserves this. But at the same time, I am appalled by their lack of pragmatism and their self-centered behavior. People out there have a much harder time than lawyers, whether 1st years or senior associates. They need to grow a pair and realize that they'll be much better off in the end than 95%+ of the population.

Ongoing attorney and staff layoffs at Paul Weiss

149, its not just the student loans that result in first years being screwed over the most. Think about this. Most of these first years are being laid off with less than five months experience. And, those who had their start dates pushed back, maybe even less than two months experience.

What do you think the market looks like for attorneys trying to lateral in with no experience? Even the fucking government requires a minimum one year experience, something that at least 2nd, 3rd years have. Look at the SEC for example...you are out of school, so you don't qualify for an internship. You don't have one year experience, so you aren't eligible for an experienced attorney position.

First-years are the least qualified attorneys out in a job market filled with experienced attorneys. They have the most student debt, and are coming out of a three year period where they had no continuous employment.

161 - on what basis? i keep hearing rumors here and there, but they seem to be doing just fine at pw.

We need an analysis of which firms laid off first-years and second-years.

firms are businesses and management has to do whatever will keep the business afloat. it sucks to lay off first years before they even have a chance to started. but as 149 says, it's not better for a second or third year or more senior person to get laid off. don't flame me - all i'm saying is that the economy is affecting everyone and it sucks for every single person who is laid off. experience or not, hardly any firm is hiring.

117- I think the real point is that Covington IS stable. It's one of the very few firms that has not made ATL for crazy BS like delayed start dates, shortened summer programs, layoffs, salary cuts, etc. The leverage is so low that layoffs aren't necessary. No, it will never have the Latham-like boom in good times, but it also will never have Latham-like cuts.

88 - couldn't you argue that it's better to go to a firm that has laid off associates because they're going to be running leaner and are in better shape to deal with the decreased demand in legal services? other than wrlk, isn't it likely that other firms that haven't had layoffs are trying to avoid staining their reputations by either doing stealth layoffs or just grinnning and bearing it? some of the firms that have not yet done layoffs had strong corporate practices and i can't imagine that they are not hurting.

No doubt Latham's medical plan(s) have great mental / behavioral health benefits. To find out more, call the 800 number on your health card. You may be able to make a number of visits with an in-network mental health provider, at the cost of a co-pay for each visit. (You would be surprised at the number of lawyers who use these services; particularly in connection with a stressful event such as a layoff.) Good luck.

You laid off people should start a business instead of sucking from the dry teat of the law.

159, I don't think that makes sense. A lot of firms that are making economic adjustments to their labor don't "need" to make those adjustments per se. They are just improving their bottom line to make themselves more attractive to the partners. If the associates at a firm are operating at 50% efficiency in terms of billable hours, it doesn't really matter how much they are paid. I can always save money by firing x% of those associates and shifting the work to the rest. If I'm predicting a long downturn in incoming work, there is no reason to carry extra people for a year or longer when the pipeline is overflowing with the ability to bring in new attorneys as 1st years and as laterals. Also in this environment, no matter what associates are paid, the firm will always get a better trained work force if it gets rid x% of associates so that the remaining associates are able to get more work thereby getting better experience and resulting in a better trained workforce.

Sorry douchebags, your prep school, SAT tutor and LSAT tutor don't entitle you to make $160,000. And don't kid yourself, those are the only reasons you are where you were in the first place. I can't believe that we hire based on high school grades and prestige, but we do.

Bunch of seriously overpriced deadweight in this economy.

6th year associate, here. Laying off first years SHOULD be a last resort. And only partially because they'll have a harder time bouncing back. By the 2nd or 3rd year you usally will know which associates are not great but add enough value that it's worth keeping them around in GOOD times. That's not usually true of 1st years. If the economy forces you to axe first years AFTER you've cut the 2nd and 3rd year deadweight, then fine. But I don't think a lot of these firms are doing that.

I'm feeling distraught. I was laid off from Shearman in 2001, worked very hard for years, finally clawed my way back to BigLaw, would've been up for promotion this year at Latham. Just when I thought I'd finally have an opportunity to prove myself, I got the axe. My practice area is dead, and the firm doesn't want to keep people at my seniority around because they don't expect my area to get busy in the next three years. Why am I so unlucky? I know I am a very good lawyer--numerous clients and partners have said so too. Why is it that whenever there's a recession, my career gets ruined? This time it really hurts. I've seen people not as smart or hardworking as I am get promoted, just because they came out at a better time or chose a different firm. I know I should keep my perspective, but I feel really angry that life is so unfair. Where do I go from here?

173, are there people in your practice group at your seniority that did not get the axe? If so, it's YOU, and you need to take a long hard look at yourself. If not, you still need to role with punches and be a resilient person. People have had MUCH worse and gone onto receive much more.

Greenberg Traurig has laid off at least 14 attorneys in its Miami office, provided zero severance (just 45 days notice) and no health insurance, paid its associates 20-25% less than its competitors for years and justified such a low salary by emphasizing that it has never conducted layoffs (covert or otherwise), and upper management generally mistreats its associates throughout the firm. If the layoffs in the Miami office are representative of the entire firm, GT has likely laid off more than 150 attorneys. So add 150 attorneys laid off (and possibly 300-400 staff) to that list.

173, if you're such a "very good lawyer" why don't you start your own firm or bring those clients to an established small firm.

Profit Per Partner will be taking a fall, too. Wachtell back to $2 mil? Skadden to $1m?

http://www.bmacewen.com/blog/archives/2008/05/a_bubble_in_ppp.html
A "Bubble" in PPP?
By my rough calculation, based on Amlaw 100 data, profits for AMLAW 100 firms has increased at a cumulative annual growth rate of over 11% for the years from 1999 to 2006. Although increased legal work may partially explain this growth, it appears more likely that law firms have increased their profits by pulling a few key levers: Increasing hours per lawyer, increasing leverage, and increasing rates. In fact, during that period, PEP grew almost 9% amongst the Amlaw 100 (the difference from gross profits to be explained in a minute). By contrast, the Dow increased only 1.2% during this period. Whereas during the bubble-building period of 1995 to 2000, it grew at 16% annually.

Hey 117-
Did Covington reject you at the screening interview or at the callback?

Hey 178-
Is that even a serious question? Screening, obviously.

Info. on GDC? (Beside 10 week summer program, which is a smart move)

Seems that GDC, Irell, Munger, and Quinn are the only places doing well in CA.

173, I feel your pain, but you are incredibly lucky to have made it back on track at a BigLaw firm at all after getting sidetracked in 2001 as you describe. I know I wasn’t able to get back into BigLaw after my in-house layoff around that same time, and corporations were mainly interested in hiring 6th years from places like Shearman.

I was up for a promotion at my current mid-sized firm at the end of 2008, too, but I will just have to wait, and be thankful I have a reasonably stable job at all.

Face it, life is inherently unfair, and impossible to predict. If you have a safe, well-paying port in this storm, you should be thankful, too. If your port isn’t safe, then you have bigger problems than a promotion freeze.

Can we have a list of firms that haven't frozen and haven't done massive layoffs?

173 here. 181, as I said in my first post, I got the axe. So I don't have a "safe, well-paying port." I suppose I should be thankful anyway because I have no debt and enough savings for me to live on for several years. 174, I'm the only one at my seniority level in my practice group in the office I'm in. I have already taken a long hard look at myself, but I don't think I deserve this. More importantly, I'm really at a loss as to where I should go from here. My inhouse opportunities would be with financial institutions, but who knows when those jobs would come back, and when they do, BigLaw firms will have already churned out several batches of senior associates who will be eager to get them. I can probably eventually find a law firm that would be willing to hire me, but after so many years already, I feel old and tired, and am not sure that I'd want to start all over again, work like a dog for 3-4 years at another firm, hoping they'd promote me. My question is, if I go with a mid-sized firm now and do something different from what I have been doing, then 2-3 years later, would it still be possible for me to get an inhouse job in my old practice area when those jobs come back?

172, I don't think any firm has massacred 1st years the way Latham has. They've already wiped out more than half the 1st years in NY alone.

I find it odd that Latham NY management hasn't been given the axe for getting the office into that situation.

168, unless Latham's behavioral health people are going to find the laid off 1st years a job, I don't see what good they can possibly do. Talking =/= solution.

I am fed up with this climate. I am looking to start my own firm or a loose consultancy kind of outfit where I will provide advice and help small corporations or start ups with their contracting needs.

I am in chicago. If anyone is interested on joining me, especially, associates with general coporate, technology, IP or trusts and estates experience, please contact me at startmyown@gmail.com

173/183- We're talking about transactional law I presume?

158 I can confirm that Latham NY laid off 33 out of 61 1st years.

HELL YEAH it is out of whack.

187--yes

33 out of 61 1st years? What the hell is going on over there?

190--Last in, first out, baby!

If that's what you're looking for, go to Latham!

190, that's only a 52% chance of getting laid off after only several months at your firm!

165--I agree.

Sidley mainly hit 2nd years, left first years well enough alone. I dont quite see why sending a 2nd yr out into this mess is any more altruistic than doing same thing to 1st year, but sure, why not, yay sidley.

as for all this latham talk- the firm was hiring hundreds of associates every year, in every office- up to and including last summer. HUGE summer classes, a frat culture where people didnt want to leave- so they claim- added up to an oversized firm with a relatively small and horribly inefficient partnership. the same goes for white and case. these two just screwed up management big time-

they would have had to lay ppl off either way, but not at this level.

195, so why haven't the managers been cast out?

All I ever wanted to do was transactional. What the hell should I do now? Other than the usual drop out of law school and/or kill myself

185 - A person blurts out to a job interviewer "I just want some support -- hold me, you fucker!" Is he going to get that job?

New job = solution. Really?

Reaching out and expressing feelings to friends, family, the on-line community, church, synagague is all good. But mental health workers are trained to put aside their own stuff and to help.

Why is talking about your feelings so threatening to you?

198=Dr. phil

171: Go fuck yourself.

No SAT tutor, No LSAT tutor, No prep school, V10 2L SA.

Looking forward to my three grand a week.

198, why is talking about jobs so threatening to you? Because then you'd have to admit that there AREN'T any and that the damage done by the 1st year layoff cannot be undone?

198 = Latham partner trying to make this go away

"Sorry douchebags, your prep school, SAT tutor and LSAT tutor don't entitle you to make $160,000. And don't kid yourself, those are the only reasons you are where you were in the first place."

As someone who went to public school studied for both the SAT and the LSAT without the benefit of tutors or prep courses, I resent this remark.

But hey, if cutting other people down on the internet is what floats your boat, well suit yourself.

200 = No-offered

-

And I can't help laugh at Latham New York. The firm is like a salt lick for jackasses who wish they were still in the frat house.

Our profession just got purged of trash.

What's this I hear about layoffs at Gibson Dunn?

205. Nothing. Gibson Dunn is actually a well managed firm.

Jobs, feelings . . . . let's talk about anything. I think the "talking" part is good.

Why do you think I'm a Latham partner?

-198

Bravo 203.

I like to respond more directly.

-- 200.

207, where can I get a job after being laid off by Latham after several months in this terrible economy?

I want to work.

204 I was never fratty or a jackass and plenty of my colleagues were great people.

205: Misinformation spread by Latham trolls.

211, I readily acknowledge that Gibson is doing well because they're well diversified. I'd give my right arm to be working there right now.

-Laid Off Latham 1st Year

Gibson Dunn should hire some of the laid off Latham 1st years just to embarrass Latham.

These layoffs aren't going to help the big firms much, especially in NY. Next comes the nasty mergery stuff that will screw left-behind associates and partners alike. Partners with big books are looking to jump to other biglaws b/c their current firms are weakening OR they're getting ridiculous offers from firms that have always salivated over those clients and books and are willing to pay big bucks for them (bucks now freed up after lopping off 2Y heads). They'll jump Old Biglaw with their books, but won't be allowed to bring their associates and service partners, who will be left behind with zero work. They'll have to use the associates at New Biglaw who are starving for work and a drain on New Biglaw (a win win for New Biglaw and a lose lose for Old Biglaw).

Whispers, secret meetings, bluffs and leveraging not seen since the court of Elizabeth I. May G-d have Mercy on us all.

First years are useless. There is no reason to keep them on. Half of them should be laid off immediately. I have been advocating this for months at my firm. Oh please, all this talk of consequences... Where else are law students supposed to find 160K jobs, in public interest? I have to admit, I would never rescind 3L offers because that would make my firm look unviable to my clients. But first years? Fuck 'em!

- Partner trying to avoid falling profits

This is all so depressing. I have not yet been laid off and have been assured by people in high places that I am "safe." However, every day I constantly worry about getting laid off and what would happen if I did. In any event, best of luck to all those looking for jobs in this dumpy market...

215, plenty of firms haven't done this and you'll lose recruits to them. if you want to dumpster dive at fordham though be my guest.

213,

Gibson prefers to hire people in the 10% of Southwestern and Pepperdine. I am not sure how many similarity situated individuals were hired by Latham.

The mass layoffs in hard times simply show which firms are well managed and which were overrated pieces of shit.

This financial crises is revealing which firms are really just Madoff-esque ponzi schemes waiting to go under.

I agree with all the other posts about keeping track of firms that have fired 1st/2nd years. After this downturn (unlike the last downturn, which was small potatos in comparison), job security will be foremost in law students' minds as they decide among firms. This blog should be keeping track of all this information while it's still fresh and before it becomes forgotten

Elie,

Latham NY, 33 out of 61 first years laid off. Make chart please.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

Latham lays off first years.

215 here,

Are you kidding? No one is going to remember that a firm laid off first years as long as the firm is smart enough to lay off accross the board. I would like to cut about 40 first years, and about 10 of each of the other classes. This is around a 100 attorneys, and that number is pretty conservative compared to other firms out there. And of those 40 laid off first years, I would like to focus on those from non-NY law schools. If they go back to Toronto and bitch about how evil their firm was, who cares? This should be fine.

223, that is the point of making the chart, so the information is conveniently available for all to see.

i hope you like hiring the bottom half of the class at fordham!

Elie,

As you can see from 223's post, we are in desperate need of a 1st year layoffs chart, broken down by office, NOT just firm wide.

222, yes, they do, but how many in NY?

In its on-campus recruiting, will Latham brag about its above-market severance?

207, I'm very sorry you don't have a job right now. I don't have one for you. A therapist does not have one for you. Leaving aside connections, the person who will need to find a job for you is you, and we are absolutely in a challenging market. You have suffered a loss, and it takes time to emotionally "get over" setbacks such as these.

If you feel you can "get over it" without seeing a therapist, great. You know yourself. If you don't want to "get over it," that's OK too. Doing anything -- blogging for example -- often makes people feel better, and I sincerely hope this is working for you.

Some people benefit from seeing a trained therapist, and some people are better able to confront challenges after seeing a trained therapist. That's why I recommended it. I'm still curious as to why this makes me a "Latham partner" (adversary).

-198

226, I think I can answer this. 33 out of a class of 61 is what I've heard. Zoinks!

Northwestern actually has a better tabulation of layoffs than anyone I've seen. Unlike Law Shucks they actually separate attorneys from staff.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/markettrends/firm_layoffs_030909.pdf

Latham is also above market in laying off first years.

Elie, a first year layoffs chart, broken down by office, would also serve the purpose of rewarding those firms that haven't completely slaughtered their first year classes. It'll also show which firms are best prepared to handle downturns.

"We threw half of the first year class in NY into the fire, but we gave them a GREAT severance."

-Latham OCI Recruiter

You people act like a "lost generation of first years" is like losing a generation of people to the holocaust. Get over it. Get a job somewhere, pay your dues, learn how to practice law, become USEFUL.

234, you're being a bit insensitive. i'd like to see you find a job as a laid off first year in this market. you're competing with people with MUCH more experience than you. plus a lot of jobs either hire you from law school, or they hire you as a lateral with at least a year of experience.

no one wants the guy who was laid off from latham after several months.

Rest assured, many of us are keeping track of which firms laid off first years after only a few months. Latham and Pillsbury, for example, deserve to suffer a hit after all this is over.

I am also asking my schools career office to warn applicants about these firms.

And fuck everyone who says first years are worthless. I bet all of you started at the top, right?

234- The issue is that firms, particularly Latham, market themselves as really caring about associates' professional development. They start with the fancy offer dinners and continue with the summer camp between 2L and 3L That's the most galling thing about all of these layoffs. Just be honest with recruits: when the economy is good, we like to leverage like crazy and profit from your mediocre work, and when the economy tanks, you'll be out of a job.

235, perhaps those first years should have worked harder during law school and took classes that built real skills, instead of coasting through 3L year with a B average taking classes like Law and Existentialism and thinking that they have job security for life.

And in most fields, employers are perfectly willing to hire people with a few months of experience over those with years of experience. The difference is that the first group are willing to work for less pay and are not an entitled bunch of whiners.

238, i'm sorry but half the class at Latham NY did not have a B average third year taking classes like Law and Existentialism. If they'd laid off 5 people, maybe even 10, then fine. but 33 out of 61 people? no.

237, you must have been born yesterday if you actually believed all that.

239, how much do you want to bet that those who were retained have better grades and more substantive classes.

241 i'll accept your wager

236, you're an idiot. Do you think college career svcs offices were warned by graduating seniors when huge employers like Raytheon, GE and TJX laid off folks during past recessions??? You guys have drunk the prestige kool-aid and now you're shocked that firms are in fact "businesses" with "bottom-lines" and have to make cuts beyond secretaries and redundant admins when times are atrocious.

243, they'll get recruits no doubt. but people are going to prefer other firms to them.

243 - during a recession, it's called TAKE WHAT YOU CAN GET. Health insurance? Salary? Yay! Join the rest of America vying for those two things right now.

243 - I don't see your point. All I'm saying is that students have a right to know which firms fucked over their peers in past years.

I fully recognize the economic realities right now. But there will always be top students who have options, and Latham and Pillsbury should and will be avoided by them in the coming years.

I'm confused about the singular focus some people have on first year layoffs. Why don't law students care equally re: whether they will be cut as third years? People seem to have a seriously misguided notion re: the hireability of a mid-level (hint: many government positions in big cities are so competitive that third years don't have a better chance than first years) or their student loan debt (still around, esp. for those who clerked).

The relevant data here is the total layoffs, not the class year affected. And the real takeaway: It is an incredibly difficult situation for everyone (see, e.g., post of someone who was up for partner who now doesn't know what to do; or the Dewey partners that are not making less in their partner draws than the first year associates they supervise).

247 i disagree. 1st year layoffs are uniquely bad. You can repay your debt after a few years if you live cheaply, and people are going to value the experience you've gained.

Sorry, that should be "the Dewey partners that are now making less in their partner draws than the first year associates they supervise."

~247

This idea that someone can pay off their student loan debt "in a few years" if they "live cheaply" is off base for many. Let's take a third year who clerked. One year was spent at the entry level government salary which, pre-step bump, is enough for rent , minimum student loans, and not much more. Paying only the minimum doesn't make much of a dent in those loans. Then, they have one year of law firm salary as a second year. Even if they "live cheaply" they will likely be hit by federal, state, and city taxes that can come close to 45%. The bonuses this past year, in case you hadn't noticed, weren't what they used to be. So even living frugally in a big city (let's say rent of $1,500, frugal entertainment, etc.) will not give you enough cash to "pay off" your law school student loans, let alone your undergrad. Sure, living cheaply (the $1,500 apartment instead of the $2,700 apartment) can help (a lot). But this idea that third years have somehow paid off their loans is pretty crazy (esp. if have both undergrad and law school loans). Etc.

250, i'm not saying it doesn't suck bigtime, but laying off first years was taboo for a reason.

Anyone else considering suicide? This is pretty depressing.

Anyone else considering suicide? This is pretty depressing.

"I guess you all started at the top"

Considering the number of your partners that were firm-hopping laterals or ex-government, I think it's safe to say that a lot of them did not go through the absurd entitlement of T10 - T10 - V20 that pisses us off so damn much.

Your education, apart from qualifying you in the first place, is entirely independent of whether or not a given partnership chooses to hire or retain you. You "deserve" nothing.

250,
1. most lawyers didn't clerk, so your example is misleading. Those who clerked also got a clerkship bonus, which you conveniently omitted.
2. three years of biglaw salaries is about $550k gross, or about $300k net.
3. $1500 is not cheap rent. You can rent for $1k a month, or $36k for three years. It's called having roommates and/or not living in Manhattan.
4. Let's say you spend the post-tax median household income in the US on your other expenses, or about $2k/month. This is, of course, not very frugal.
5. that still leaves you with $192k to pay off your loans.
6. so cry me a river.

and if you really insist on paying $1500/month for rent, you are still left with $174k to pay off your loans.

Plus let's not count the $30k you "earned" by working so hard 2L summer.

--255

254 please shut up you bitter old man. i'm sorry you can't bring any work into your firm, really i am.

therapists don't want to deal with laid off people because they don't think you'll pay them

Dewey & LeBoeuf cutting partner compensation... some to below first year salaries.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202429077995&rss=newswire

258:

cash up front.

250/255 - I came out of school with $120,000 in debt ad paid off much of it within a year. I held on to the remainder because the interest rate is so low (could have paid it off in an additional 18 months). I lived in Manhattan, without a roommate, for $1700/mo, and had a starting salary of $125k. I lived off of pasta and rice, brought my lunch to work a few days a week, never took taxis, and went out to cheap restaurants and bars - and I stll had fun. It's not that difficult to do. So yes, a third year, who started out at $160k should absolutely be able to pay off their loans in that time period.

they probably won't even schedule you for an appointment.

the psych industry hearts money and money alone

255, a third year who clerked does not have three years of big law salary (has one year of clerkship salary, one year of big law salary as a second year, and two months of big law salary as a third year).

The point is: these layoffs hurt *everyone* and this idea that midlevels are somehow in a much better position than a first year seems to me incorrect.

Yes, just like Latham partners. We're everywhere.

And look: I don't want to get in a war over who is hurt more, first years or third years. I just don't understand the sentiment that we need to religiously track first year layoffs as the ultimate scarlet letter of law firm layoffs: layoffs suck, period. They all hurt (some maybe more than others, but the sixth year trying to support a family may be hurting more than the first year with no student loans and whose parents can help, etc.). I really hope for all of us that this economy gets itself back on track soon. Good luck to everyone who is job hunting.
~263

263, you must not have read my first line where I said most people didn't clerk, and proceeded from that assumption.
You also forgot the clerkship bonus in your salary total, again. That one year of second year salary is also quite a bit more than a year.
-- 255

261: that's impressive. I've made good progress, but not nearly your track. I'll have to reassess my budget to see where my money is going. I don't lead a particularly extravagant lifestyle (e.g., $1,600 rent, no luxury vacations, no car, no designer clothes, bring homemade lunches most days, etc.--but I am not living on pasta and rice, either), but I still haven't made close to the progress you have. (I did, however, clerk--and the clerkship bonus did not make up the salary difference, although it was very appreciated--and had more student loans to start with.)

Folks might find it interesting to note that many of the associates fired by Sidley were not junior associates with no work, but 5-8 years with at least some work. This was true in both litigaiton and corporate groups--a very large proportion of those fired were midlevels and senior associates. Many of us remaining Sidley associates are expecting a second round of cuts in the coming months. They are only going to keep all the first and second years with nothing to do for so long. Stay tuned.

All this talk of tracking firms who laid off 1l and the damage it will do to those firms, is nothing more than a desperate grab by law students at gaining power. It isn't going to happen. The bottom line...you will always need jobs and you will be happy to jump at a big law offer if and when it comes. There are no other options for making this kind of money and the next batch of greedy grad won't care what happened to you. They will be too busy salivating over that big check.

1st year layoffs are especially harmful. I'd be far more concerned about getting laid off as a 1st year than a 3rd year.

Elie, you need to track these 1st year layoffs so 2Ls can make informed decisions about where to go.

269, a LOT of firms have not laid off first years. Therefore, people have a choice. Yah, those who completely slaughtered their first years will still get recruits, but they're going to be last choice firms. Get it?

How quaint Vault rankings now seem . . .. Once the economy comes back and firms start hiring again, there will be a new paradigm, with the new criterion being the suckiness of the layoffs firms conducted (including whether first/second years were laid off).

Dow's up, recession's over. Latham can afford to rehire everyone now.

218 --- It's widely known that Gibson's hiring standards are exponentially higher than Latham's (see Vault selectivity rankings, see grades of entering GDC attorneys)

273 nailed it. Firing everyone was a very shortsighted move since the economy is already on the rebound.

271--Go ahead and tell yourself if it makes you feel better.

Grow the F up. Recruits have no power.

Future grads won't care what happened in '08 and '09. Lawyers are a self-absorbed, greedy bunch. It all about the $$$$$$$$$$$.

276 = Partner at TTT firm with no work.

Go ahead, pretend your poorly diversified overleveraged firm is going to survive this recession if it makes you feel better.

3rd year associate here. Graduated 170k in debt, from top 10 school. Paid off 70k principal in debt and saved 60k cash, plus 20k in 401k. Meaning, in 2.5 years of work, put 150k of after-tax income toward reducing debt/savings. But, still negative 20k net worth, and just got laid off. Message - don't go to law school unless you get a scholarship or you're a rich kid whose parents are paying for it. Law school tuition is the next "bubble" to burst, because people are catching on. It's a bad deal. (note I didn't even consider the opportunity cost of 3 years lost income - that makes it even worse). Do something useful with your life - or something fun, or creative, but don't go to law school.

EVERYONE should just default on their student student loans. If we ALL stop paying, there is not a damn thing that anyone can do about it.

We were scammed by wall street and their easy debt house of cards and the law schools who were happy to play along. Fuck them.

No one reviews documents quite like an Ivy League grad.

Never forget the power of my balls.

263/265: You make too many assumptions about first-years. Not all of us are single 25year olds any more. I'm a thirty-year old laid off first year with two kids and $100k in debt. I'm telling you, I would be in a much better position right now if I had two years experience. Laying off first years is especially cruel. Not saying it doesn't suck for everyone, but having some experience, a network, and at least $160k more in income certainly helps.

283, seconded. first year layoffs are just plain fucking cruel.

There's a special place in hell for partners who lay off first years

Greedy partners who decided that expanding associate leverage was a good solution to the associate attrition prolem--rather than addressing the crappy work conditions that drove 40% of associates out within 3 years--are to blame for this.

I sure hope those greedy partners get fired! Shouldn't they be booted for their HORRID business strategy?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4353655982817317115

Documentary on the events that led to the economic collapse of Argentina in 2001 which wiped out the middle class and raised the level of poverty to 57.5%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTIW9mOKU4s

Gerald Celente, and analyst renowned for accuracy on forecasting trends, explains why the impending economic collapse, next escalating to a serious retail and commercial real estate collapse, will...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/us/politics/16econ.html?_r=1

Economic Advisers Warn of No Quick Turnarounds

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By BRIAN KNOWLTON
Published: March 15, 2009

WASHINGTON — Top administration economic advisers walked a careful line Sunday, saying that despite a few hopeful indicators and President Obama’s call to investors to consider returning to the share markets, that it would “take some time” to turn a corner.

I just don't understand why anyone would incur $170k or more in educational debts. I owe about $80k, and think that's too much, but at least I went to a T5 law school that promised to pay my loans if I ever decided to leave biglaw and get a more interesting job that pays well, but not biglaw money.

280....Your math just doesn't add up, sorry. Well, unless you are living in your parents' basement.

Let's be honest for a second,

If you are a laid-off first or second year, sadly you are "stick a fork in it" done. There are making a new grads every year. By the time this economy turns around, you will be no more attractive than yesterday's news. My advice to laid-off first and second years: search for fast and furiously and then settle for the best you can find - even in a non-legal job. Work your as off when there and make the best of the situation.

3 yrs +: you have some skills, but your jobs may be permanently gone. Open your own firm, go in-house, do what it takes to put food on the plate.

This is a once in a lifetime screw-up and although it is not your fault, reality requires you to deal with it.

286 is right. These people (e.g., laid off Latham first years) should never have had those jobs in the first place.

292, his math does add up. See post 255 for a similar breakdown.

294, every laid off Latham 1st year had offers at other firms.

293 is a douche

What the hell is wrong with you people? The most logical thing to do is lay off first years. They are the most inexperienced of the bunch. They were hired in the summer of 2007. They are a massive class at my firm. Very bloated. Fuck 'em. Nobody will remember that we laid off first years a few years from now. Like I said before, just make sure to lay off across the board. Also, make sure that the laid off first years are from non-T14 law schools. Sure, if you are a first year who went to a T14 law school, then you should be safe (otherwise we would be shooting ourselves in the foot, recruiting-wise). But if you are a first year from a non-T14 law school, and you got to BIGLAW because you were top of your class, law review, moot court, clerkship, then FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. You never belonged in BIGLAW anyway. We only hired you because we needed (or thought we did) the drones back in 2007. Well you know what, the market tanked. Why should I sacrifice my bottom line to feed you. FUCK YOU, GO HOME! YOU SHOULD BE LAID OFF! What are you going to do? Unionize? What are you dock workers? Factory workers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! YOU ARE SO POWERLESS!

295...still doesn't add up. Those claiming to have paid off their loans that quickly are unrealistic and it is definitely not the norm. Its a good thing I don't care about my student loans. I consolidated and pay the minimum. With 2% interest rates and a law school that will pay my loans if I ever take a job for less than 100k (married with 2 kids), why rush to pay them off quickly. Doesn't make good financial sense. Those not fortunate enough to have been in my position shouldn't have amassed so many loans to begin with. Its that sense of entitlement to a big paycheck that has gotten so many under water with student loans. I feel bad for those suffering with student loans, but it was really stupid to take out so many loans on the hope that they would have a big enough paycheck to pay it off, someday, somehow And most of these people with such loans had other options, I'm sure.

298 sounds exactly how i imagine a biglaw partner. no wonder you couldn't bring in a deal or case to save your life. don't worry buddy, you're up next on the chopping block.

298 is right. Law students from non-T14 schools will always be available for Biglaw to hire. They will never say no to a 160K paycheck. Most of them have non-wealthy parents. Biglaw is a dream come true for them. And because they will always be available, they should be the first to be laid off from every firm. I would also focus on first years in that fashion as well.

297, keep sticking your head in the sand. These jobs are gone forever. Settle for the best you can. You are not entitled to 6 figure income just because you majored in PoliSci and got a good LSAT score.

293.

302 you're being unduly pessimistic towards people who are going through hard times. You don't know what's going to happy, so kindly stfu and kill self.

301 sure, if you want to fill up on the bottom half of the class at fordham. if you want to compete for the best grads, that's not really a good strategy. plenty of firms ie gibson dunn, sidley, all of the v10 but latham, have not slaughtered their first years.

298 and 301 -- amen. Fuck that entitlement shit.

298 makes a great point. Why should top NY firms keep non-T14 first, second or third years in this economy? Makes no sense. Besides, there will be no consequences to firing them in terms of recruiting. To be quite frank, though, the idea is not original. Firms are already laying off based on politics, not performance. So this is something that is already happening. Kudos, however, to discussing the issue so honestly here.

303, sure let's pamper them, let's tell them it will be all ok.

It was a good ride while it lasted. Time to adjust to the reality - too many lawyers, not too little experience, and no plan in sight to get back to where we used to be. NOW STFU and shove a brief up your ass.

304, companies like Microsoft and Google have laid off people, while other companies like Apple have not. That means Google will never be able to recruit from top campuses ever again, right? Hah!

When the economy turns around in 2013 or so, the t10 schools' graduates will go to the firms with the most "prestige"*, regardless of whether those firms laid off some first years in the time before they went to law school.

* Prestige as defined by an anonymous Internet survey of junior associates.

307 = life's rape victim

298 is exactly why I don't regret not getting any Big Law offers when I graduated in '05. I wouldn't have lasted long anyway because I would have gotten into an altercation with someone like 298 at a firm party and been fired the next day.

But I've enjoyed my gov't lawyer salary, which will hit six figures in a couple of years. . that and never working holidays and working no more than a few weekends per year.

I agree, screw first years, and screw those who went to law schools ranked below Georgetown. They can easily be fired and no one would be the wiser. A Fordham graduate, or Brooklyn Law graduate, or Cardozo graduate, or Rutgers graduate would never say no to Biglaw. Of course, I agree that those who went to top law schools should be spared, even if they are first years, otherwise firms would be shooting themselves in the foot in terms of recruiting.

274,

Yes. GDC has higher grades because they tend to hire from lower tiered schools. Just go to GDC's website. You will find numerous associates from crapstacular schools. Please don't give me "they were first in their class." That is not true. Start with A and just check em out.

You should keep your law school elitism to yourself. Some of the most sucessful biglaw partners did not go to T14 schools. If you are employed and aIthough I doubt that many of you are (it is obvious that most of the comments on this thread are from law students and not working attorneys), your attitude is going to get you booted out of a job. Don't insult the hands that feed you.

And let us not forget those who REMAIN

I do not understand the hysteria about "paying off loans." If the big bucks are not guaranteed--and in biglaw they are not--what you should do is save the money--not pay off the amount. In the end you may lose some money on interest, but it is better to have $150k of debt and $70k in the bank versus $80k of debt and nothing in the bank. When you know that you can afford to pay off your loans, then you start paying down your PRIVATE debt. There is no need to pay off your public loans unless you for some reason locked yourself into high rates (7% plus).

We should ALL stop paying our student loans. If millions of people stop paying, they can't do jack shit to us.

They can get the money from the pricks who made a fortune in bonuses off the easy lending, and the bitchass schools who took advantage by raising tuition through the roof.

174, don't be so smug and it's "roll" with the punches, not "role".

312 -- -You're full of shit. Maybe 5 of Gibson's 50 LA summers were from schools outside the to 20. I'm sure the percentage was much higher at Latham. Check out GDC's DC office -- mainly HLS and YLS

Did you not get hired at GDC?

312 -- -You're full of shit. Maybe 5 of Gibson's 50 LA summers were from schools outside the top 20. I'm sure the percentage was much higher at Latham. Check out GDC's DC office -- mainly HLS and YLS

Did you not get hired at GDC?

I wish I'd been hired by GDC

Kash sucks

309 - what does that mean?

Forget BigLaw. You'll only be disappointed if you keep thinking about it. Apply for government (state and fed), non-profits, healthcare, anything. Apply daily. It's just a lottery right now. It's just luck. Apply, apply, apply and get lucky. You'll get a call in a few months. This will pass in a few years. It sucks for all of us right now. Firms will get cases worth millions. Feel blessed that we all have this time to take it easy for a few years. There's no work right now. It's nothing more than that. Stop taking this so personally, and stop overanalyzing yourselves. Every single one of you will be hired.

Since most of you voted for that Kenyan usurper.....go ahead and lose your jobs. LMAO!

318/319,

Are you an insecure GDC associate?

GDC=TTT...they just set their OCI dates at Widener and Cooley

GDC has not laid off half their first years in any office

178, 179 -- I'm a 1L, so neither. But I like the way you resort to silly insults rather than argue based on the data. And the data don't lie -- Cov doesn't seem to be able to command anything CLOSE to the billing rates as other firms (see post 117). By the way, the Legal Times agreed with me. On 9/10/2007, they published an article entitled,

"ARE THEY DESTINED FOR A SLOW FADE? IN THE ERA OF THE MEGAFIRM, TWO WASHINGTON INSTITUTIONS FACE A MURKY FUTURE."

The article was referring to Cov and A&P.

In reference to cov, the article notes that:

"For one thing, it is, at bottom, a general practice firm... The firm doesn't dominate any top-end practices in the manner of New York's Cravath, Swaine & Moore or D.C.'s Williams & Connolly.
In addition, the firm hasn't grown substantially, at least as compared to other D.C.-based firms like Hogan and WilmerHale."

But maybe you're right. Maybe it's just b/c me and the entire staff of the Legal Times were all rejected by cov.

GDC is the credited law firm

"Yes. GDC has higher grades because they tend to hire from lower tiered schools."

This has got to be a joke.

330,

Ask anyone at Munger or Quinn. It is not.

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=(%27Education%27:%27Southwestern%20University%27)

331: I thought we were comparing GDC and Latham?

What 316 said. Stop paying private loans. Unless they resurrect 'debtor's prison', mean ole Sallie Mae got nuthin' on me!

I'm a third year litigator, still employed for now (my hours are down a bit but they haven't fallen off a cliff like they have for some people). If I lost my job now, it would be bad, but I don't see how anybody can deny it would have been far worse as a first year. By now my private loans are all paid off, my federal loans are consolidated at a low interest rate and a 30 year payment plan, I've got a nice chunk of change in the bank and more in my 401k (which has taken a nasty hit of course, buts it still there). By this point in my first year, I had barely paid off my credit card debt, let alone started into my loans, and I had very little savings. Not to mention the facts that I had zero skills at the time other than doc review. Now I've taken depositions, argued motions, second chaired a trial, etc. It would not be ideal to be on the street now, but at least I've got something to offer. I'm skeptical that hanging a shingle will solve anything, especially if everybody starts doing that, but at least I'd know where to start, and when the hiring does start again, I'd have something to offer.

Firing first years might save my job, but I think first years who get axed are going to find that their biglaw careers are over, and I doubt many of them will make it in small-law, government, etc. The numbers just don't match up, not with the law schools pumping out huge numbers of new lawyers every year. On the other hand I believe eventually many of the laid off more senior associates will be brought back at lower salaries, at least at first. Ask a laid off 3rd or 4th year right now if they would be willing to come back at a first year salary. There will be major bargain hunting going on early in the recovery, whenever that is.

298 - Judging by your ridiculous post, I can almost guarantee you're not a partner. You sound more like a bitter law student than anything else.

I'm a senior associate at a V10, T6 grad. I have worked with a number of non-T14 grads, and I have almost always been impressed by their work product. And more importantly, by their work ethic.

As a T6 grad, I'd love to believe that my diploma by itself will guarantee job security. But it doesn't, and it shouldn't. Once you graduate law school and get out into the real world, you'll realize that no one really cares about what school you went to. At least that's the case at my firm.

Don't worry about schools. Worry more about networking. Think more about mid and small law. Volunteer, write. Things will be better than you imagine. It will be a nice life. Don't envy biglaw. They may envy you.

"But I like the way you resort to silly insults rather than argue based on the data."

This is probably because arguing on the internet is pretty stupid.

332 - You probably go to Loyala --- Check the links below

331 --- ask Munger and Quinn where they are ranked in the Vault rankings

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Harvard%20University')

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Yale%20University')

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Columbia')

332 - You probably go to Loyola* --- Check the links below

331 --- ask Munger and Quinn where they are ranked in the Vault rankings

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Harvard%20University')

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Yale%20University')

http://www.gibsondunn.com/Search/Pages/LawyerSearch.aspx?k=('Education':'Columbia')

"331 --- ask Munger and Quinn where they are ranked in the Vault rankings"

To be fair, Vault rankings are stupid.

298=301=305=has never smelled BigLaw

324 is an idiot. So if McCain were president, there would be no layoffs, right? Only an idiot would make such an idiotic statement.

343, since only an idiot can't spot a BS artist, you must be an idiot, right?

268, which office? I haven't heard of anyone in years 6-8 let go.

So, which of these layoff queens will be the first to implode?

First year layoffs are the smartest thing in the world to do. Elie, quick (because I know you're itching to do more statistical work in addition to whatever you do for ATL), we need charts tracking first year layoffs to see which firms were super cool and laid off the most first years during this recession. Also first year layoffs are the least cruelest to the associates because they haven't had the time to get used to the high salary. Let's all praise the firms that have laid off first years and we need a shame list of those firms that haven't laid off enough first years. First years to the unemployment line!

347, i agree that we should track 1st year layoffs. we'll let 2Ls decide whether they think that's cool or not.

You're welcome.

316 is the reason why I wish we still had debtor's prison.

"least cruelest" seriously?

350, you'll never get it, the democrats are in power baby.

enjoy paying my federally guaranteed loans when i default.

*deposits severance check in cayman islands bank account, heads to south american beach*

Sadly, I do agree with the many posters who have stated that laid off first years will have an immensely dfficult -- if not impossible -- time landing another BIGLAW job. These firms continue to recruit law students who will take these first year jobs. And the reality is that laid off first years simply do not have enough experience to be hired as mid-levels in a few years when (hopefully) the economy bounces back.

If you a a laid off BIGLAW first-year and you still hope to earn a good salary and are not interested in government service, I strongly suggest that you apply to MIDLAW firms and be flexible about practice areas. There are MIDLAW firms who are salivating at the chance to pick up junior associates with the kind of credentials that they could never get in a normal economy.

Best of luck canned First Years because you are going to need it. You are going to have to be creative and flexible.

353, "There are MIDLAW firms who are salivating at the chance to pick up junior associates with the kind of credentials that they could never get in a normal economy."

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the laid-off first years would just really want to get back to biglaw once the market improves.

BREAKING!!! HALT THE LAYOFFS . . . BERNANKE SAYS RECESSION "PROBABLY" WILL END THIS YEAR. NYC to 190K

Which of these firms will be the first to apply for a government bailout?

Don't worry about your student loans. BHO plans to hyperinflate his way out this simple insolvency problem. The real worry is that he's going to do a Hoover/FDR and turn a recession into a full blown depression. But I digress.

Don't worry about getting back into BigLaw. The idea of BigLaw, whatever that once meant to you, is just a memory of something that no longer exists. You've got to ask yourself what you're going to do next. You've got a license to practice law and uncertainty and human conflict remain. So find your niche and exploit it. That's what survival is all about after all.

Finally, blowing $20/day on coffee didn't fill that hole in your heart did it? Neither did pretending to be the Queen of Fucking England by taking "High Tea". How about that $2,000 suit or those $400 shoes? Nope, nope and nope. Bubbles arise when people start chasing a bunch of shit that doesn't matter. Bubbles pop when people wake up and yell, "Oh shit!, what the fuck am I doing with all these tulip bulbs??!!"

And that's where we are right now - coming to our senses. So figure out what makes you really happy, and figure out what area of the law you're really good at, and go be one of those, whatever it is.

Good luck out there.

357, hold me

i am a fat, ugly lecherous partner who can't bring in work

i feel suicidal

Congratulations everyone, the recession is officially over! We're now in a deep depression!

Posts 1-360 are evidence that attorneys know jack shit about economics and finance.

Students and 1st Years who think that shaming firms will do anything to change firm behavior are way off track.

The only way firms will be deterred from laying off 1Ys or canceling summer programs is if the resulting inference is that the firm is in trouble. A sense that the firm might not be viable will cause clients to flee.

Nobody important cares that a firm might be considered 'mean' or a 'TTT' because they laid off youngsters. But if the narrative is that the firm is laying off b/c it's desperate, then there's a real deterrence to laying off unless absolutely necessary.

Just a handful of pills and this could all end

353, there may be some Midlaw firms that are indeed 'salivating' at the prospect of scooping up a few Biglaw refugees. However, you vastly overstate the availability of these jobs as an exit option.

First, many of the MIdlaw firms are hurting too and laying off. Second, the good Midlaw firms (the ones that pay something in the neighborhood of market) are already largely comprised of Biglaw refugees. They're not going to be overly wowed by a T10 degree and 6 months at LW. Also, they've had experience recruiting from these pools before, so they'll screen closely for people who are genuinely interested in their firm and not just looking for a port in the storm.

Midlaw will do some hiring and the smart firms will take the opportunity to pull in some top notch talent, but it would be a mistake to think that Midlaw is an easy backup for the recently laid-off. Many of the well-credentialed lawyers I know that have recently been fired from Biglaw are finding themselves applying to tiny firms (3 man shops/solos/etc.) for jobs paying <$50k and scarier still, not getting hired. These are good people too. It's truly bleak out there...

No one should ever hire an attorney who didn't graduate from HLS. No one, and I mean no one, reviews docs like an Ivy League grad!

Tremble at the power of my balls.

Man stares into the abyss, and there's nothing staring back at him. That's when man finds his character. And that's what keeps him out of the abyss.

To add to what 365 said, the problem with focusing on midlaw is that there's just not much that qualifies as such - even in a good economy.

The private legal profession is mostly divided into a minority of firms that qualify as big law and an overwhelming majority of firms that start at $55k and there's just not that much in between.

353: Midlaw firms cannot replace the thousands of lost BIGLAW jobs. But Midlaw firms will hire some of the refugees and it is one option for the laid off to consider. It is not the only option.

360: Don't do anything stupid. This too shall pass. It is only a job. There are lots of things that one can do with a law degree besides BIGLAW.

Lat should engage in some performance-related layoffs and replace his current writers with the author of comment 139.

What do people do when they are starving but have no food?

They eat each other.

372nd!!!

Where is Partner Emeritus on this thread?

Partner Emeritus is probably playing Dungeons and Dragons with his geek friends in his parents' basement while updating his facebook status every 30 minutes.

Just read this article.

Congratulations, Hugh Verrier!!

White & Case now has the dubious honor of being the international law firm with the largest number of layoffs - in terms of total, associates only and support staff only! The lead on all three fronts! Wow!

Way to go, Hugh!

You are a fantastic manager!

Keep up the good work!

(This is a sarcastic posting if you don't get it!)

now is a Golden Age for legal aid / pro bono recruiting.

our children and the heirs of their bodies will talk of it for generations yet to come.

328- That article blasts Covington for not being a highly-leveraged firm and for not expanding rapidly into booming areas like structured finance. Those are exactly the reasons that Covington has not had to lay of and cut back during this recession. That article is a complete joke - all of the models of "success" that it cites are faltering.

371--Lawyers were doing that long before the economic collapse.

So what do they can 2, 3, 4 lawyers disappearing every week, over months?

360 - perhaps you are joking but perhaps you are not. As the commenters in this blog have pointed out, it is just a job. It may not feel like "just a job" to you, but if you step back and look at the big picture and see how much a decision like that will hurt your loved ones (parents, friends, significant other etc), you will realize that it is absolutely and unquestionably not the right move.

The same sword that knights you they gonna goodnight you with -

Jay Z

Darkness descends upon us like the raven on carrion, tremble in awe of thy mighty maw; death, plague and suffering I yearn for thy sweet embrace.

Hey, look, we made CNN. And we don't look like a bunch of assholes! Big media, saying something nice about lawyers? It really must be the end of the world...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/16/lawyer.layoff.public/index.html

Serious question: are bankruptcy lawyers' job in jeopardy when the economy picks back up?

383, good article. I was hoping this would hit mainstream media. I hope it continues.

Of course first years will be hired years from now. Everything will be fine. Law firms are forever changed. The massive, devastating blow to the legal community is unprecedented. Everyone in the legal community has been forced to eat humble pie for the first time. Much of the snobbery will disappear. It's a good thing.

Legal secretary here. Here's my two cents. Good schools are overrated. The only thing that matters is the ability to bring in business. We really only respect the bigshot partners who have the big clients. We don't care if he's a Harvard or Fordham graduate. I've worked for non-Ivy League New York types who really know how to hustle and bring in millions. They may not even dress well. We don't respect the polished, Ivy League partners who do mostly client development work. We make fun of them.

Actually, I fear the legal profession has been permanently damaged. Law firms have been hurt this time, fatally so. In the future, there will be no more lawyers and everyone will represent himself pro se, using do-it-yourself books and the like to prepare. At most, ppl will consult legal professionals in India to prepare for any litigation.

387,

No one cares who a legal secretary respects. If you disrespect the right person, you may be on your way out.

360 / 364, How would you like us to respond?

389, many Ivy League partners with low billables are desperate and mean, and they're running us into the ground with nothing but non-billable client development work. I'm just saying to show some respect to the much more succesful attorneys who came from less prestigious schools. I don't know why some attorneys bring in the money and others don't. Maybe they know how to truly hustle. I can say the same thing to you: Be careful who you disrespect. Don't disrespect the people who came from less prestigious schools.

Having worked at Sidley until last year, I can believe thatit was a tough decision for the firm, given the culture there. It sounds like they tried to make it as economic oriented as possible, so as not to harm job prospects.

As for not firing first years, it would not surprise me if they did want to give some experience time to people. If you are doing lots of client development/non-billable time, a first year can do that just as well, while a second or third year would at that point be better off looking for a new job -- rather than getting laid off after 2 years of nonbillables.

382 , Relax

I hate to say I saw all this coming about 5 years ago when I read the baby boomer lawyer stats... anyone who graduated law school pre- 1990 for example---- not a bunch of partners who are going to care about the next generation of attorneys but rather the kind of lawyers who (male and female) will hang onto every last ounce of hourly billing when the going gets tough. And many of them are going to live a looonnngg tiimmmmeee. I have been in the biz of placing attorneys for almost 15 years... and it is funny to watch the practice area trends, for example "We need real estate associates" when biz is busy there (cause they didn't groom folks/ train them in that area) to today's cry, "we need bankruptcy associates" - a few years ago no one cared to bring along/ train bankruptcy cause it wasn't "hot" so those boomers held onto the work... Now, well, a professional industry loosing 7000 jobs???? That is unbelieveable!!!

394, your post is proof you have no concept of the history of professional labor. Consider the oil industry , which in a 15 year span shed 200,000+ white collar (engineers/geophysicists/geologists) jobs and over 650,000 people all together.

382 = fail

Many Biglaw clients won't even pay for first-year work, so laying off first-years makes perfect sense from a client management standpoint.

Wilkie is looking to do massive layoffs on April 24th. Good luck to all

I am hearing WSGR is gearing up for another round of lay offs. Anyone can confirm?

Hey Elie don't know if you are paying attention or not but Proskauer at this very moment and for the last two days is literally throwing out secretaries! Just fired the whole full time day floater staff as well as quite a few senior partner secys. They are continuing today! Heard from an executive committee secy that they are in debt to the tune of a 45 million dollar credit as well as losing business (and major partners) in the last 3 years. Very disgruntled employee jus thought you'd like to know in case you hadn't heard yet! And my response to 398 . . . FUCK YOU YOU GREEDY BASTARD!!!