Weil Gotshal Almost Sets the Market With Incoming First Year Associate Deferral Dollars
Almost a month ago, Latham & Watkins set the market in terms of incoming first year deferral programs Latham offered $75K to associates who saw their start dates with the firm pushed back for a year.
Many firms have followed, but none have topped. Today, Weil, Gotshal & Manges is taking a run at Latham’s high water mark.
A tipster reports sent us a Weil memo that announces the firm’s new deferred start date program. It’s a bit complicated. Weil is pushing back the start date for all incoming associates until January, 2010. But, in addition to bar expenses, the firm will be paying associates $15,000 in September 2009. That is more than anybody else who has deferred start dates to the first of the year.
But Weil is also asking associates to volunteer for have their start dates pushed back until January, 2011. Yes, I said “2011.” That would be longer than any firm (at this point) is asking its incoming first years to wait. However, if associates push back until 2011, Weil will give you $75,000 — if you work for a firm approved public interest organization — on top of the $15K they will receive in September, 2009. Should an associate choose not to work for that time, Weil will offer $60,000 (on top of the initial $15K).
That is not all that is happening over at Weil today. More details after the jump.
Weil is also scaling back its summer program from 12 weeks to 10 weeks. There are any number of firms who are moving to a ten week program. However, here’s an interesting wrinkle. If you were already scheduled to work the full 12 weeks at Weil, the firm give you $1,500 in make good money. So, really, in terms of pay, Weil summers are only losing half 3/4 of a paycheck, instead of a full one.
And for what it’s worth, that $1,500 will be mailed to you next week. Spring break baby!
One sobering note (yes, let’s pretend that there is only one sobering note when a firm asks 3Ls to delay until 2011): the memo notes that the management committee is considering all of its options to avoid attorney layoffs. I wonder if this will affect Weil in its match-up with Cleary in the Safest Firms bracket?
But, layoffs haven’t happened yet, so let’s think about that tomorrow. This is starting to look like the salary wars of halcyon days long past. This morning Clifford Chance gave $10,000 for people pushed back until January 2010, and Weil comes right back with $15,000. Are all the firms that didn’t offer any extra money to people who were pushed back to January going to have to revisit that decision and offer their deferred first years a little something more than “bar expenses?” If everybody can play follow the leader on the way down, surely the door must swing both ways.
Cross the streams boys.
Earlier: Is Latham Setting Precedent?
Prior ATL coverage of start dates
Prior ATL coverage of deferral stipends
(269) Comments
Comments
FIRST. O'DOYLE RULES!
This is really bad news. I figured Weil was one of THE safest places.
The Dow is up 21% off bear market lows meaning that we literally are in a bull market. Our good friend the NASDAQ is up for the year! Firms, the recession is over - theses deferrals make you look foolish.
This is bizarre. Firms used to compete on how much they could (over)pay first years to work for them, and now they're competing on how much they can pay first years NOT to work for them??
Woah. Kind of shocking for Weil to do this.
Weil to $75k!
(for not working until 2011)
B-b-b-but Weil is so safe it???? IT HAS A LARGE BANKRUPTCY PRACTICE!!!! THIS IS UNPOSSIBLE!
holy shit
WHY would they post this before they told the first years.
I just got a hand job from the girl who works at Hot Topic.
I am Prestige
Guys they are leveraged as all hell and a 2nd tier firm to boot. This shouldn't be a surprise.
They're losing three-quarters of a paycheck, not half -- $1500 is, in fact, not half of $6000.
Way to not tell the incoming 2009 class yet... thanks Weil
Way to not tell the incoming 2009 class yet... thanks Weil
Deferred until 2011 = fired with severance
Way to not tell the incoming 2009 class yet... thanks Weil
Isn't $1500 to work 10 weeks instead of 12 only a recovery of 1/4 of lost pay? Summers at Weil are paid $3000+ per WEEK not per paycheck, so two weeks less equals $6000+. Unless there is some reduction in pay scale that ATL forgot to report?
Way to not tell the incoming 2009 class yet... thanks Weil
none HAVE topped.
not
none OF topped.
"none of topped"? Jesus.
Way to not tell the incoming 2009 class yet... thanks Weil
This is the scariest news ever - I thought Weil was busy with its bankruptcy practice? If Weil is doing this, basically every firm is in trouble...
none HAVE topped.
not
none OF topped.
hey MysTTTal, $1500 is not half of $6000.
You call this plan complicated. Earlier today, you called Clifford Chance's plan complicated as well. I'm not sure how dumb you are, Elie, but how are either of these complicated?
And no, $1,500 is not half of $6,000 you fat moron.
Can't you do anything right?
Weil truly is the safest firm, if by safe you mean not safe at all.
what?
you mean the incoming 2009 class did not know?
not sure i got the message. please clarify.
This is the scariest news ever - I thought Weil was busy with its bankruptcy practice? If Weil is doing this, basically every firm is in trouble...
WTF - People with zero expierence are gettting paid $75K to sit at home. While expierenced attorney's can't even get a position for $75K. Is this a joke.???
It makes the severance packages out there look like crap.
"Many firms have followed, but none of topped. "
I can't believe none OF topped. It's inconceivable!
22,
No, "aliens are coming to earth to ravage every human orifice" is the scariest news ever. This is merely inconvenient.
28 - You had your chance and you failed at life. Dems da breaks.
Why did I have to find this out from ATL. Why:(
This ruins my bracket.
1. take the $15 + $60k.
2. get bartending gig.
3. ???
4. Profit!
Why did I have to find this out from ATL. Why:(
Leave Elie alone. He is already fat and black.
If no white man wants to be Chris Rock, even though he is skinny and rich, how do you think Elie feels?
fuck.. this is horrible news..
For $60K, I'd gladly travel the world for a year.
NYC to January 2013!!!
4 - hahaha, awesome... this is getting a little crazy. New rumor that BigLaw is going to pay 3Ls $200,000 to just go away and never come back and aspiring lawyers $100,000 to not go to law school.
Ropes offered $20k upon graduation w/ deferred start date of Jan 2010, which tops Weil's $15k...
OH GOD, NO, THIS IS HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!
Why, oh Lord do you forsake us, WHYYYYYYYYY!!!!
Ropes offered $20k upon graduation w/ deferred start date of Jan 2010, which tops Weil's $15k...
Sorry to say this Elie, but at as an African American you are really making the rest of us look bad!
Just proof read before sending things out! Sigh
Why is everyone so shocked that a firm with a strong bankruptcy practice is delaying start dates? It's not like Weil only practices bankruptcy. According to NALP, the vast majority of the associates in Weil's NYC office work in either corp or lit. Only 19 partners in the NYC office practice bankruptcy, so it's not like they could place all 150+ new associates in bankruptcy practice.
Ropes offered a salary advance, not a stipend. Way different.
Also, Ropes is making its 3Ls work for the $60k. Weil is letting them travel.
No comparison here - Weil wins. (Although Weil is way more leveraged than Ropes. Ropes might be safer?)
Why is everyone so shocked that a firm with a strong bankruptcy practice is delaying start dates? It's not like Weil only practices bankruptcy. According to NALP, the vast majority of the associates in Weil's NYC office work in either corp or lit. Only 19 partners in the NYC office practice bankruptcy, so it's not like they could place all 150+ new associates in bankruptcy practice.
Are you still eligible for that sweet Weil $$$ if you haven't passed/taken the bar or graduated from law school? Thx.
Why is everyone so shocked that a firm with a strong bankruptcy practice is delaying start dates? It's not like Weil only practices bankruptcy. According to NALP, the vast majority of the associates in Weil's NYC office work in either corp or lit. Only 19 partners in the NYC office practice bankruptcy, so it's not like they could place all 150+ new associates in bankruptcy practice.
Ropes offered a 20K salary advance, Weil is offering a 15K stipend. BIG difference.
What should the 2010 class expect if the 2009 class is deferred to 2011?
Would be awkward to get the 2010 kids starting at the firm before the 2009 class, what a way to doom morale for years.
God, this is an awful news, but this definitely shows that NO firm is safe irrespective of any contests run on ATL. Anyone trying to argue that X is safer than Y is probably not working in a biglaw firm.
Just a random question about all of these 3L deferral programs generally -- do you get firm health insurance coverage when you're on your deferral year?
Ropes offered a 20K salary advance, Weil is offering a 15K stipend. BIG difference.
Here is an idea. The firms who are not paying anything for deferring should stick with that plan. Maybe the firms should hold onto the cash and think about the long term. Even if they lose a class or two, there will be more down the road to fill the jobs. If there are those that don't want to wait, let them jump. It is tough out here in the real world. Maybe having an offer six months later than expected is not so bad. Its time to lower expectations to reality.
Firms will be financially stronger if they would stop throwing cash at inexperienced employees. Use the extra money to train them once they come in. Also, maybe they can hire extra people so that billables do not have to be so high.
Here is an opportunity to change the legal profession for the better.
people who placed their faith in weil = TTT
shut up 55. you clearly dont have law school debt
Here's an idea, 55: why don't you TTToss my salad?
Weil is NOT mailing the $1500 next week (for the summer program)...the email specifically says that it is NOT an advance our or salary
Ropes is offering full medical, dental, and eye insurance for deferring 3Ls
Weil is NOT mailing the $1500 next week (for the summer program)...the email specifically says that it is NOT an advance on our salary
Question: Will this affect their class year for salary purposes? If the class of 2009 starts in 2010, will they be on the same salary scale as the class of 2010? Will 2010 be their stub year or will they have no stub year in effect?
45- "Proofread" is one word. Apparently Elie's not the only one...
59 is right -- there's nothing in the email to 2009 SAs saying that the $1500 is coming this week.
46/48/50 is right. To answer your question though, it's because nearly everyone on here is an ignorant law student who knows nothing about firm practice or about Weil. Their bankruptcy practice is top-notch and has been very hyped recently, but it's like 10% of the firm's business. A 10% hedge is nice, but that's all it is -- a hedge.
Question:
How do some of you know which firms are more leveraged than others?
- D.S.
55 = 1L whose admissions essay was about his yearning desire to do public interest work and help the downtrodden.
looks like this is only the ny office because we never got that email/memo in DC.
66- See:
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202426909972
No associate in any law firm is SAFE! The only way to survive is to: (1) bill 2300 hours a year; or (2) have your own clients. PERIOD. ENOUGH SAID.
43-
Assuming there is a god, why would he/she/it care about you? You are a lawyer. You traded your soul for Prestige.
the dc office is really slow
ok, let's take a step back and look at developments from a macro perspective. Deferrals, whether subsidized or not, are likely in the end to result in a substantial reduction of the number of associates joining Weil or other BigLaw firms in the next 1--2 years. Combined with attorney layoffs and unusually aggressive "performance reviews," we're looking at thousands of academically high performing law students, and young legal talent good enough to have attracted BigLaw offers in the past, who are seeking other employment. Some will wind up pursuing career opportunities in other fields but many, if not most ,are likely to be part of a gradually developing talent shift to smaller firms which now have an opportunity to attract a higher caliber of student and attorney than in the past---better researchers, writers, future rain makers,etc. This development , over time, in combination with the breakup or contraction (at the partner level) of larger firms, may well result in the growth of a new group of "boutique" firms which will be able to expand in an economically rational manner and ultimately compete effectively for business with BigLaw entities. Sort of a brain drain effect, which may result in a much larger price being paid by the larger firms which are now shedding talent than anything they've factored into their calculators.
55 = Hope & Change
63 - You LOSER, since proof & read are two separate words they can be used apart (did you learn about compound words in the first grade- or did you go to a TTT elementary school in addition to the law school you attended?) Oh wait let me guess...you are now one of the people standing on the breadline. Ha ha..IDIOT!
Jones Day just pushed back start dates to late Oct for all offices.
-Girl with unanticipated 2 month break beginning in Sept.
45: Shut the fuck up.
i'm slammed and i'm in the dc office, #72. this is the first break from meetings/calls/etc i've been able to have since 8am this morning.
I would happily take only $50,000 not to work for Weil for a year. Where do I sign up?
77= Elie
I love how some commenters feel that Elie "makes all African-Americans look bad" while simultaneously believing that people should be judged as individuals and eschew racial politics. Newsflash: stop saying/believing dumb shit like 45 and racial politics will go away. Morons...
Wow. If Weil is deferring, then NOBODY will be starting in 2009. Milbank needs to announce something already!
80: 77 and 81 here. Kiss my ass.
First of all, Weil is a top ten firm so this is scary and troubling. Second, they aren’t leveraged so it is curious as to why they are making these cuts. But at the end of the day, it's a business.....
75: What a moran you are. 63 was clearly and obviously referring to the use of the words IN CONTEXT. ANd he/she is entirely correct. You, on the other hand, come off as a half-wit who is trying to be 'clever' but who failed miserably.
With your reasoning and interpersonal skills, you will never get that permanent offer once your deferral runs out. Better practice bartending now and get a jump on your new career.
84 - Weil actually is leveraged a lot - check the chart that is pasted above. According to that chart, they're the 7th highest leveraged firm out of the Am Law 100
ok, it was JUST emailed to all DC associates and counsel!
84, if by "not leveraged" you mean they're ranked #7 in terms of leverage at 5.7 lawyers per partner, then your post is correct.
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202426909972
Wow, $75k to do nothing for over a year, or $90k to work in public interest. A no-brainer imo.
Ok, i didn't read the details too closely so I may be getting this wrong. But $75k to do nothing for a year and a half, except study for the bar? I'll gladly take the bar again, in any state, for that kind of deal. How do I get in on this.
Ropes & Gray isn't high on that law.com leverage list. Why are they having to defer start dates? Just not a good firm?
I'll take it! Wow you people are spoiled. Pay me not to work for you... Okay! I can do that!
I thought the recession was over.
Ropes isn't leveraged highly, but (a) they've had huge summer classes of late, (b) they haven't done layoffs, and have said they're not doing layoffs anytime soon, (c) have a big PE practice, and (d) are generally just really conservative.
90 - i think you need to have good grades and be a huge douchebag
My guess is that most 3Ls will turn down the deferral. Which provides better job security: to start working and building relationships or to keep standing outside the door looking in?
81, 77- The point is not, nor has it ever been that racial politics will go away. Instead, the point is that if you have a job you should do it i.e., read an article before you publish it.
I'm sorry that this is hard for you to digest...but you seem to be missing the point. Why don't you stick to your breadline politics and you should be just fine collecting your unemployment checks.
45, 75, 80
why not defer for decades?
fucking moronic to "predict" demand 2 years out
95 - I have the good grades. And for money i can be a huge douchebag. Isn't that what lawyering is all about?
90
does this apply to incoming clerks as well?
What happens if someone takes the $75,000, gets another job, and does not want to come back in January 2011? Is the stipend conditioned on actually working for the firm?
Of course nobody will take the deferral. And when January comes around and the DOW is back below 6,000, then Weil will send around another memo.
WE ARE ALL FUCKED BEYOND BELIEF.
Weil is not leveraged, like whatsoever.
85=63
102= Paul Krugman
100 - that wouldn't make sense. Why would a firm pay $75-90k for someone with clerk experience, when they can pay the same to someone who hasn't even graduated from law school?
To all the Weil sh!tfaces at my T5 law school who have been acting smug throughout all the bad news about everyone else's firms: HAHAHAHAHA!!!
I hate smug people. I mean, seriously. Luck of the draw that some students CHOSE a job there (and let's be honest, we get to choose), there's all this good "bankruptcy" and PPP news. They walk around with this smug "heard about your firm...sorry". I have news for you: Weil is not hard to get a job at (if you go to a T5), they are just as f-ed as everyone else, and you are not better than anyone cause you picked at random one of the faceless law firms that comes and throws their summers/jobs/slavery at us each year.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA
WGM class of 09'rs:
75k buys a whole hella lot on Soi Cowboy
-BKK Rockstar
Did anyone read the post (except for typos)? The $75k is for work at "a firm approved public interest organization". Not for sitting at home in your momma's basement.
Weil has no debt. Eat it.
97: Your "point" is absolutely valid. But your own words betray your point:
"Sorry to say this Elie, but at as an African American you are really making the rest of us look bad!"
You can't clean that up. Thus, my point stands. If you feel that Elie embarrasses you because you happen to be African-American, then, sadly, you're just as racist as some of the other pricks who post on here.
As for me...I'm quite comfortable in my biglaw job. I suspect, however, you may have a problem retaining yours (if you have one) based on your "so-big-I-can-drive-a-truck-through-it" grammar mistake in post 45 (ironically criticizing Elie for doing the same thing...go figure).
Fuck off.
107= my new best friend.
- fellow T5er who knows what's up.
107 = Latham 2009 Summer Associate at CLS
I find this quite amusing considering my V100 ("TTT") firm hasn't frozen salaries or fired associates (publicly at least) and continues to maintain its late-September start date. So much for that "prestige" factor of the V25.
This doesn't seem to apply to all of their offices...
107 - I feel bad for those who actually researched firms and picked weil because everyone said it was safe.
Here I was thinking that the market will be pretty strong by the time I finally enter in fall of 2011... now I'm starting to think that these huge deferrals are going to hurt my class.
117; yes, they are. One of two things has to happen (because most firms will not be in a position to take on the incoming AND deferred classes)...either your class gets the boot, or the deferred associates are told to move on.
when is my kirkland start date??? this is starting to get ridiculous.
119 - if you haven't heard yet it's because your offer was rescinded. others have already heard.
When is Milbank going to announce start dates already? This is getting out of hand.
111- I do have a BigLaw job- oh but here's the thing, it doesn't involve writing articles. Rather, it involves advising my clients on various issues, writing briefs, and attending court among other things- all of which I do quite well-hence my 2100 hours billed last year, my bonus, and oh the fact that I have RETAINED my job.
So you'll have to excuse me for trying to squeeze in a quick post reminding Elie of what his job actually is. As for yourself, I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that you in fact don't even have a job and are merely talking shit to take up time in your virtually non-existent life.
Good luck MORON!
97
Know what really grinds my gears? Certain people who run with their hands all scrunched up, pawing in front of them, like raptors.
Ivy League Cross Country Running Star
111- I do have a BigLaw job- oh but here's the thing, it doesn't involve writing articles. Rather, it involves advising my clients on various issues, writing briefs, and attending court among other things- all of which I do quite well-hence my 2100 hours billed last year, my bonus, and oh the fact that I have RETAINED my job.
So you'll have to excuse me for trying to squeeze in a quick post reminding Elie of what his job actually is. As for yourself, I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that you in fact don't even have a job and are merely talking shit to take up time in your virtually non-existent life.
Good luck MORON!
97
111- I do have a BigLaw job- oh but here's the thing, it doesn't involve writing articles. Rather, it involves advising my clients on various issues, writing briefs, and attending court among other things- all of which I do quite well-hence my 2100 hours billed last year, my bonus, and oh the fact that I have RETAINED my job.
So you'll have to excuse me for trying to squeeze in a quick post reminding Elie of what his job actually is. As for yourself, I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that you in fact don't even have a job and are merely talking shit to take up time in your virtually non-existent life.
Good luck MORON!
97
"If you were already scheduled to work the full 12 weeks at Weil, the firm give you $1,500 in make good money. "
What the?
LOL.
FIRST to say ATL just got duped.
Shearman hasn't announced start dates yet, either, and from what I hear they are deciding how long to defer incoming associates and what kind of deferral stipend they will pay. Since it's certainly coming, thanks to Weil for setting the high mark. Hopefully Shearman will get close to it...
Leverage can means either: 1) the firm operates on debt. 2) the firm has a high associate to partner ratio. You should clarify which one you mean.
78 = RV. Your post is only one reason no one likes you.
a firm start date DELAYED is justice DENIED
109 - you are wrong, sorry (so smug you are) $90k to the people who work at public interest. I know you didn't do well in math, but this is pretty basic stuff.
130, 78: I like IP and patent litigation also! You must be busy representing debtors and creditors! Good luck!
97: I see. "Forgive" you for your error because it occurred in the context of making a "quick" post to criticize Elie for not proofreading his work, and because you don't write articles. Because we all know that proofreading skills are only required for people who write blog posts and news articles. Um, yeah...ok. I'm sure your clients would love to know that proofreading only applies to those who write articles.
Oh, and nice dodge of my main point i.e. that you're a pathetic moron because you believe, as do others here, that Elie's failure to proofread his articles reflects poorly on African-Americans in general and African-American lawyers and law students in particular.
YOU are the true embarrassment to African-Americans...
My guess is that most 3Ls will turn down the deferral. Which provides better job security: to start working and building relationships or to keep standing outside the door looking in?
Shearman has actually told us that our start date is November 30th, a few times, and initially set our advance at 7,500 and then doubled it to 15,000 when some people asked for more in light of the longer than normal delay. Of course, it's possible that will change, but it has been said. They really made it quite clear, if you're an incoming 09 3L I'm not sure how you missed that.
75 -
You're right. I'm sure that moron's replacement of a commonly known compound word with its two separate roots was as purposeful as it was brilliant
I actually thought of the same thing as I was pulling into my drive way, ascending my stair well, and turning around shortly there after when I came across my room mate, thumb in ass, ATL on computer screen - he nearly cap sized the arm chair!
127: Glad to know that I'm not the only one who thought this looked fake.
I thought Elie was a white girl. who knew.
Wrong about Weil being the first firm to push to 2011: Orrick already effectively deferred a ton of 3Ls to January 2011 by offering them deferred start dates at the very end of March 2010 and then strongly encouraging all of them to instead take a "fellowship" for 2010 and then start as early as January 2011.
115, this applies across the board.
What happens to a start date deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun?
Wrong 136. Read your letter again. You cannot start "before" November 30. That does not mean you will start "on" that date. And Shearman has not yet determined when incoming associates will be able to start, I know that for certain. The partners are discussing deferral dates.
The 15k assumes a start date near November/ December. In light of the market for deferrals, are you going to be happy with a $15k ADVANCE (not stipend) if S&S tells you to start in late 2010?
lol @ 137
Weil is in real trouble. My friend hear this guy talking on the train about "doing bankruptcy work for Weil." That's right, I said it, Weil is GOING BANKRUPT
They were never a real top ten firm anyways.
127, 138,
ATL was not duped. Confirmed by Weil summers at my school (at least the summer program details).
Can anyone else confirm this?
145, Tremendous humor FAIL.
Gibson news?
146 --> completely agreed. They hired more sub-par (at least grades/journals/etc.) students from my school than any other V10. Unquestionably the easiest offer in V10 to get for this upcoming summer.
Gibson news?
147: what offices? I haven't heard anything (yet).
110- lie...
110- lie...
Agree with 146 and 151. Some people at my T14 going to Weil had NO other offers from which to choose. Their hiring standards are rivaled only by Dunkin Donuts.
143 - The initial letter at the end of the summer did indeed say no earlier than November 30th, but the follow on letter we got explaining the advance said there would be start dates on November 30th, December 7th, and December 14th and that everyone would be working by the middle of December. Again, it's at will employment, so it's of course subject to change, but it was really explained quite clearly. They may be discussing deferral dates, they may be discussing dissolving the firm, they may be discussing firing us all and hiring chimpanzees, who knows? I do know that whatever other failings they may have, and whatever may be in store for the firm in this economy, they have at least been up front with us up to now.
What's a Weil Gotshal?
I'm in Lit at a V5 firm and I might bill 300 hours this month. Any chance I'll be laid off?
Are there firms out there that haven't announced START DATES yet???
160 - Gibson and S&C haven't announced start dates
161 - WTF is taking them so long?
-- terrified 3L w/offer
145, you are a loser. You wished you worked for weil, but the fact is that you dont even know how to pay your rent. Weil is nowhere close to bankruptcy. Wait for GM restucturing and you will be surprised.
145, you are a loser. You wished you worked for weil, but the fact is that you dont even know how to pay your rent. Weil is nowhere close to bankruptcy. Wait for GM restucturing and you will be surprised.
163/164--
Are you daft? 145 was clearly making a bad joke.
163/164
It was a joke. Just like you.
Fuck law. Fuck lawyers.
Wow, they're really asking their first years to wait aWEIL to start....
heyyooooooooooo
162 - I wish I knew
--- 3L w/ offer
Weil 2Ls will probably start in late 2014.
Is Skadden the only safe firm left?
The floodgates have now been open. I expect tomorrow will be a HUGE day in terms of firms announcing deferred start dates. And it won't be pretty.
Any firm that hasn't announced yet or stupidly set a start date in September or October will announce something before the end of the month. I always knew March would be a bloodbath for 3L's.
But the firms who wait too long need to know they are really fucking their incomings over.
@168 is the #1 Punnnnner
160: Baker Botts has not announced start dates.
Milbank, Sidley, S&C, Proskauer, Shearman - and the list goes on. Why are these firms not announcing start dates?!?
Um to all those morons who think Weil is in trouble - just want to let you know, Weil has ABSOLUTELY no debt. The firm never takes out loans, and everything is paid out of pocket. So, bankruptcy is impossible if you have NO CREDITORS.
Thanks god we won't have to deal with this year's crop of spoiled, incompetent prima donna law students until January.
Weil Fifth Year Associate
The economic health of any particular law firm can turn on a dime. Weil’s bankruptcy work was largely a mirage. According to the latest league tables, Weil only has 93 active cases, placing it 21st among law firms. It recently shed an amazing 130 cases.
Meanwhile, Latham (ATL’s punching bag du jour) is currently servicing 249 active bankruptcy cases thanks to a surge of new cases in Q4 2008. Latham is now 3rd among all law firms for active bankruptcy work.
No, I do not work at Latham. But if you think that any particular firm is “safe” because of what you read last week on ATL, you’re in for a rude awakening, kid. Today’s champion can turn into tomorrow’s chump in a nanosecond. Welcome to the law.
151, really? When I was in law school (HLS '04), Skadden easily won the award for "V10 shop - most below-average hires." Given Skadden's size, I'm surprised that's changed.
171 -- Skadden is trying to get everyone to defer --- not safe
177, I'm guessing you somehow shot straight to being a 5th year, skipping your own "incompetent prima donna" years? Nice job.
175 - Milbank gave us an October start date. But obviously nobody expects this to hold. In fact, many of us suspect that tomorrow will be the day we will all get the friendly phone call.
"better researchers, writers, future rain makers,etc."
spoke like a real 2L that doesn't have a f__ing clue. I guess that's the natural progression law school - research - write - make rain.
Sounds about right.
Some of the best rainmakers were subpar law students and associates.
178- Damn. I was basing my career plans on the bracketology here on ATL. Thanks for setting me straight.
Interesting, of the sweet sixteen, Weil was the only one to have fewer equity partners between 2008 and 2009 (a 4.17% reduction). To put that in perspective, Dechert's partners are down 6.75% and Latham's are down 2.02%
179,
Agreed. Weil might be easy, but Skadden is the neighborhood bike - everyone gets a ride!
why are doing well and taking prudent business measures mutually exclusive? why are people so fucking dense?
Traditionally the easiest V 10 offers to get were:
1) Skadden
2) Weil
3) Latham
Latham became more difficult this year because of their smaller class size.
http://www.thedeal.com/dealscape/2009/03/the_deal_pipelines_bankruptcy.php
Top 3 bankruptcy for Q4 -- no Weil in sight.
I'm glad DPW still has normal starting dates. Are they the only one?
AHHHHHHHHH! I AM SO FUCKED!
190 - you will not be starting in 2009. Trust me.
192: Starting in Sept supposedly. Will wait and see.
190 -- Debevoise also. They added a new start date a couple of weeks in the year, but they kept their usual start dates too in Sept. and October. I'm glad to have made this choice, hope work will be there.
190 - don't kid yourself. Haven't you heard of the layoffs going on at your own firm?
To those saying S & C has not fixed a start date, that is not correct. The firm in January set it at October 5 for all offices.
Whether or not it will remain that way, who knows?
Did K & E officially fix a start date yet?
firms that are still at 12 weeks should really confirm or deny the existence of a 12 week program. i need to sign a damn lease.
Sidley announced start dates (and changed ones) like 3 weeks ago.
Thank God I have a huge cock.
Weil-hating has a long and glorious tradition. So here's a little fanboi-ism for you.
1. Weil was started and grew to fame based on the sweat of really smart jews who busted their ass. They were never handed the comfy country-club IB relationships of their white-shoe peers. Over years of hard work, they built their practice to the point where GECC, Lehman, Merrill (and inreasingly Goldman) became top clients of the firm. While they will always be looked down upon by the snooty elites, such as the wet-behind the ears juniors on boards such as this who talk about "prestige," they have built a consistent money-making powerhouse.
2. No, they are not Wachtell. Neither is anyone else.
3. Åt various times they have been derided as just a "bankruptcy shop." This is idiotic. While their bankruptcy practice has undoubtedly been the top one in the country, the firm carried its bankruptcy practice for the last few pre-crash years and continued to explode PPP's and revenues. This was mostly driven by PE and a top-notch (Am Law recognized) litigation practice.
4. To those who suggested, absurdly, that Weil's bankruptcy practice is somehow not keeping up, they are literally turning away work. And whoever posted that list of top firms doing bankrupcies in 4Q--come on. Greenberg? White & Case? What are the size of those bankruptcies? How many of them equal one Lehman? And by the way, when Weil's bankruptcy is hitting on all cylinders it contributes way more than "10%" to the bottom line. No matter how many bankruptcy partners there are, BK spits off enormous amounts of corporate and lit.
5. Of course Weil is not "in trouble". They posted increases in PPP last year. Wait til you see what happens in 09 when your Cravath's and Wachtell's are down 25-50% in PPP. All firms are in the shitter for the next few years. Until we can trade "prestige points" for money, your better off at Weil than anywhere else.
200 - that cock sure does pay student loans.
I dislike the way students working at Weil this summer at my school answer questions about where they're working.
"Where are you working this summer?"
"Oh (fake non-chalant look, sprinkled with smug sefl-satisfaction)...Weil..."
Now your firm is just as poo sucky as most of the rest of the V25 law firms. Suck it, you are not safe. I can already hear the "Well at least they aren't laying people off" retarded defense coming on.
Milbank's making calls right now to incoming first years!!! will keep yall posted
204 - you better not be bullshitting. What are they saying?
203, hilarious. Nailed it on the head. Though that used to (and still does) apply to firms like S&C, Wachtell, Cravath, Davis, etc.
There is the opposite as well. The way those at Latham, Orrick, White & Case, etc. say where they are working (as if they had anything to do with layoffs or knowing ex ante they would happen there) and pretend like it's a badge of shame or something, even though those firms are still some of the hardest in the country to get an offer at (especially Latham). There's always the follow up "Well dude, I'm sure they're fine", which is never sincere either.
Lets face it - Weil has some pretty darn good management. They are one step ahead of everybody else. Pretty creative to top the market - they are looking very smart in what they are trying to do. We should all be so lucky to work there!
Dear 201, your beloved firm is telling first years not to show up to work until a year and a half after they had intended on starting. If I were an incoming first year, I would essentially consider myself unemployed under those circumstances. I'm sure Weil is a fine firm, but let's be real about its current situation.
I think 207 is right. With Dannhauser, Wolf (heir apparent, i understand) and the new business/operations guy from investment banking (I think its Bear Stearns), my money is they will be top 5 when we emerge from the depression. They know exactly what they're doing.
However, i still think they regret the decision on Dennis Block. Pfizer's premiums are looking mighty pretty these days. Anyone from Weil care to comment?
206 --- not hard to get a job at Latham ... the default firm for people at my law school
204 is full of shit - no calls have been made.
Although I shouldn't be, I'm amazed at how many douchebags are strutting around saying that Weil is in trouble because Weil is "leveraged" - a term they clearly picked up from an analytically-flawed law.com article. Do you TTTs know what leverage really is? The law.com link leaves out CRITICAL details in its "leverage" analysis, like how much debt does the firm carry for starters. So Firm A can have 5 associates per partner with massive debt and Firm B can have the same, but with no debt. Firm A, to any non-TTTer, is clearly more "leveraged" - and that's just a crude analysis. The law.com article doesn't look at other expenses, earnings/expense ratios, etc. Don't know where Weil is in that regard, but without knowing that, writing Weil off as "leveraged" is, well, TTT.
207 - I second that. Weil is managed very well and has a lot of foresight. I think the the deferrals are in line with the low attrition rates and the current state of the economy, but the firm is very balanced and will come out of this in good shape
211 - you just haven't gotten yours yet.
210 - that used to be true. Latham was indeed a difficult offer to get this year.
Fuck off 214. Nobody is making calls at 10pm.
216 - some today, some tomorrow, etc.
Anyone seen Nervous T10?
Yo, assholes, this motherfucker's dead!
Sidley has start dates: November 2009.
they also had old start dates- September 2009.
The leap to January 2010 seems like a reasonable one at this point. Question is whether theyll give anyone any friggin MONEY to pay for living expenses while we await our fate...
Nobody will be starting in 2009! Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool. Cravath, Skadden, Cleary -- they will ALL push back eventually.
Weil is not going anywhere, so is this blog. All Weil doing is making smart decisions. At least, it is not laying off people left and right. For most of you its just another name of the firm you don't know how to pronounce.
Will Getch-you & Mangle-you
OTOH,
Mar 26, 2009 - Cadwalader won Restructuring Law Firm of the Year , and a matter on which the firm acted as counsel for CIFG Holding Ltd. was presented with Deal of the Year , at the 2009 IFLR Americas Awards.
Mar 16, 2009 - Cadwalader is advising a group of senior secured creditors of Netherlands-based NXP Semiconductors in relation to NXP's pending exchange offer.
Feb 18, 2009 - Cadwalader is representing TradeComet.com LLC in an antitrust action alleging that Google, in an effort to thwart TradeComet.com’s subsidiary, SourceTool.com, blocked search traffic by instituting large price increases.
Feb 5, 2009 - The Department of Treasury has hired Cadwalader to advise the U.S. government on the restructuring of troubled U.S. automakers.
Jan 27, 2009 - Cadwalader represents former directors and officers of Pfizer, who were defendants in a derivative suit alleging that the company sold Celebrex and Bextra despite alleged cardiovascular risks associated with the drugs. On January 27, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit affirmed the decision of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York to grant the defendants' motion to dismiss the action.
Jan 26, 2009 - Cadwalader is representing Pfizer in its acquisition of Wyeth in a $68 billion cash and stock transaction that creates one of the world's most diversified companies in the global health care industry.
Jan 22, 2009 - CIFG Holding, Ltd., the holding company for CIFG’s financial guaranty subsidiaries, along with its principal shareholders, Banque Populaire Group and Caisse d’Epargne Group, reached a final settlement with credit default swap counterparties and bondholders of ABS CDO exposures and certain CRE CDO exposures. Cadwalader acted as CIFG’s legal counsel.
Jan 20, 2009 - The U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas confirmed the Plan of Reorganization for Heartland Automotive proposed by the debtors and Cadwalader's client, the Unsecured Creditors Committee. The Plan was confirmed in just over 12 months.
Jan 9, 2009 - Cadwalader Helps Lyondell Secure Record DIP Financing.
Go Cadwalader! The underdog's on top.
PSA:
The same fucking idiots who thought having 150 member summer classes (at firms with 400 total lawyers) was a nifty idea are the same fucking idiots who now can magically predict legal services demands for 2 years out...
That said, leverage is great when the associaTTTes are busy, but is a killer when they are not (obviously)
177 - your comment reminded me of the time my mother called me a son of a bitch... looks like you insulted yourself with that comment... The one pathetic thing about the legal industry right from law school applicants to managing partners is the amount of pathetic insecurity that manifests through incessant and annoying comparisons of law schools, firms, practice areas, associate and partner levels, boats, houses, and of course the amount of square footage that their wives take up. Seriously, does anyone really think that they are better than other people because they work for the V6 firm as opposed to the V8 firm? Very few people at my school know that I am headed to biglaw and no one ever talks or brags about anything regarding job offers, lack of delays, or firm prestige ranking. In fact, most of us can't stand it when people ask.
We'll see, 221.
BTW, I have already have a scheduled September start date from one of those firms you mentioned. Of course, things can change. But they haven't yet.
No, K&E has not set start dates yet. At least not in SF.
Besides, I'm pretty sure if they rescinded offers, it would be up on ATL. Same with if they set start dates. And 119 probably would have heard they'd been fired? Just a guess.
Any bad news from WLRK, CSM, S&C, and DPW? Skadden had already offered a deferral program two weeks ago. It looks that the legal industry has not hit the bottom yet. It generally lags behind the overall economy by about 4-6 months. If the economy hit the bottom in Mid-March, I expect the legal industry will hit the bottom this fall. Hopefully everything will start to look better by then.
I am still wondering what these firms going to do with all these deferred associates. Are they going to treat them as 2nd year or 1st year? For firms that haven't dramatically downsized their summer class, how are they going to accommodate the 2009 and 2010 class at the same time?
Hogan is filled up with stealth layoffs to the tune of 10%.
anyone who cites the Deal Pipeline as an indication of strength of bankruptcy practice is an idiot. Did you notice that K&E and Skadden, generally thought of as the other two heavy hitters in bankruptcy, are also not on the list?
One major debtor representation makes more money (and prestige, for those who care) for a firm than representing some bank as a creditor in 20 bankruptcies. Weil is going to make a killing on Lehman, WaMu, SemGroup, Pilgrim's Pride, etc....
and while there are literally 500 firms who are involved in the Lehman bankruptcy, only one (for the most part) represents Lehman.
Fact: Weil is the GULC of the V10.
Uh, Sullivan has a start date- October 5 2009. And i think Shearman also has ppl starting in Nov and Dec.
I am dying to know when Gibson/Willkie/MoFo/Milbank will announce, particularly Gibson bec I need to, you know, get an apt and stuff.
228, that's what I thought about my clear cut sept date that i received some month ago. that was until last friday.
228 - September start date you say? And........it's gone!
What are the top 10 firms without layoffs or deferrments to date now? WLRK, S&C, Cravath, Davis, Kirkland, Simpson Thacher. Is that everything? Am I missing anything?
No layoffs or deferrment at Skadden to date, too.
Skadden has offered a voluntary deferral program. Of course if nobody signs on, they will have to do something.
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/03/skadden_deferral_option.php
2011 incoming associate package = "don't come back lazy bastart"
I'm excited for my $75k for doing nothing. This will be a very good year for me. The extra $15k for PI work doesn't interest me at all. My wife works, in a more stable sector of the economy (read she is an MD). I just don't know what I'm going to do with all of my free time. Any suggestions that don't involve public interest work? I'm looking more along the lines of wasting a year, and at the same time mocking everyone doing public interest work by making more than them for sitting on my ass. If someone could come up with something along those lines I would appreciate it.
To 178, 189, and 224: obviously you don't know the difference between debtors' work and creditors' work. It's also obvious you don't know the difference between large debtor work (think Lehman, GM) and small debtor work (think Mom and Pop).
Weil gets the best bankruptcy work in the industry.
241- Join a country club, play 36 a day and stay moderately intoxicated 14 hours a day.
Skaddens start date is Oct 21- its not a deferral because they didnt couch it as one, but isnt that particularly late?
i start second week of sept.
241 - maybe during that year you could enroll in "how not to be a douche" classes. i'm surprised weil would hire someone like you.
-V10 associate
I find it funny the same people toting out the deal #'s right now to say Weil isn't tops in the business are the same people who scoff when Jones Day tries to use the deal #'s in M&A work to show how good they are. Quantity or quality people, take your pick.
"I'm excited for my $75k for doing nothing. This will be a very good year for me. The extra $15k for PI work doesn't interest me at all. My wife works, in a more stable sector of the economy (read she is an MD). I just don't know what I'm going to do with all of my free time. Any suggestions that don't involve public interest work? I'm looking more along the lines of wasting a year, and at the same time mocking everyone doing public interest work by making more than them for sitting on my ass. If someone could come up with something along those lines I would appreciate it."
Wow, what a loser. Do you realize that people who want to do public interest work generally aren't in it for the money?
To 246's comment,
While I'm sure this will be eviscerated by someone later, "quality" i.e. big time public bankruptcy cases as opposed to multiple smaller ones might not really be in the best interest for associates to one degree or another. On the bigger cases, you end up doing smaller more menial work for inordinate amounts of time and get less of the big picture. In a smaller engagement, you'll likely manage and work on more different parts of the case, possibly leading to better experience.
"But my resume says I worked on the Lehman bankruptcy!!!" - yeah, you put together lists of creditors and double checked them 10 hours a day for 10 months. Congrats.
King and Spalding has pushed back start dates to 1/2010 - I also hear they are cutting partner salaries by up to 10%
Answer to 101?
Um, the economy did not bottom in March. It is going to contract for all of 2009.
Law bottom is, at minimum, summer of 2010.
THIS STUFF IS CRAZY! MADNESS! HOW ARE INCOMING BIGLAW PEOPLE NOT JUMPING OUT OF WINDOWS?!?
Where is mingo?
So what the heck is someone supposed to do for 5 and a half months between the bar and the mid Jan start date?
228: My September start date may go...but it hasn't gone yet.
I think everyone has to be pretty open-eyed about the challenges facing the industry. At the same time, just because your firm is doing things like pushing back start dates, shortening summers, etc., doesn't mean that mine will.
And incidentally, I would guess that Cleary is certainly not going to shorten summer programs for 2Ls, because that would completely interfere with their summer rotation program, which has already been set up (i.e., all the tickets and long-term accommodation has been purchased already).
143, you are WRONG. Shearman sent an e-mail out a month after the letter saying that the first start date would be November 30, and the rest would be in December. Learn to read all the documents you are sent. It will really help you out as a lawyer.
It's a cookbook! It's a cookbook!!!
251, umm no. Have you seen the recent figures on the economy? Slow growth in Q4 and into Q1 of 2010.
In accordance with the Las Vegas City Center possible filing, "The law firm of Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP is working for MGM Mirage on a range of legal issues." - WSJ.
biznes as usual.
Is the $15,000 pre or post tax? Will Weil cover health insurance? If it doesn't -- and this money is taxed -- it doesn't look like such a generous stipend after all.
260 - when your income for 2009 is $15,000, there is no tax.
260 - whenever a dollar amount is specified in any transaction, it is pre-tax. There is no way for the payor to know the recipient's tax status and as such it would be impossible to allocate a payment that would yield 15,000 post-tax.
241 - Obviously you [with your money-bags wife] do not have any student loans. Others are not so lucky.
I hope Weil dumps your ass. What a loser.
241 is a complete idiot. How many people in the class of 2009 at Weil had wives that are doctors? I'm sure it would be VERY easy to out this guy, and I hope that someone at the firm does.
What a classless moron.
There are no "safe" places to work. Many associates left Weil last year -- even more than the usual number of people left. The place is a revolving door of unhappy associates.
Weil downsized staffers in January.
There are no "safe" places to work. Many associates left Weil last year -- even more than the usual number of people left. The place is a revolving door of unhappy associates.
Weil downsized staffers in January.
There are no "safe" places to work. Many associates left Weil last year -- even more than the usual number of people left. The place is a revolving door of unhappy associates.
Weil downsized staffers in January.
I'd take the $60K to not work for a year, move to Africa or Latin America, and live like a prince for a year!
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