Pride?

Everyone in Texas is afraid of their 3500 sq ft wives and some kind of car called a Lexis.

"admitting the extend to which.."
EXTENT - you even use it correctly right above. Are you using auto-type to write these?

#3 - I don't get it.

Texas firms are afraid to admit layoffs because most students and potential laterals still view Texas as fairly healthy and any indication that one firm here is not fairing so well might greatly diminish their ability to attract top candidates. And no firm here wants to lose out on that (save Winstead, which probably won't exist a year from now).

However, there are numerous firms here that are still growing, like Vinson & Elkins, Haynes and Boone (now the 4th largest firm in the state by a wide margin), Bracewell & Giuliani, and Baker Botts. Each of those firms (except Baker Botts) has not had to make any layoff announcements because any layoffs that have taken place have been mostly performance-based. Sure, if the economy was stronger then those layoffs might not have taken place, but they have all avoided any sizable reductions for economic reasons. And even Baker Botts had a fairly small layoff (their problem was drastic overhiring the past couple of years, which is why their summer class (especially in Houston) is significantly smaller than past years and even smaller than many of the mid-size firms in town).

An inside source says Baker Botts laid off staff & attorneys in Austin (30) and Dallas (unknown #). I'm at a Houston-based biglaw firm, and quaking in my boots.

On the bright side, our Summer 2009 program is only slightly smaller than last year's (~10% drop)

Staff @ my Houston-based firm are being told not to work OT.

Hey Big Guy:

When we fire someone in Texas, they are "shown the door," not "showed the door" as you Yankees are fond of saying. Don't misunderestimate me, and don't mess with Texas.

i'm at a large firm in texas. only highly leveraged firms are feeling it right now. few firms are making stealth cuts north of 15 associates. Andrews and Kurth is trying to rope more firms into the "open layoff" party, but no one is going to attend.

Agree with 5 to the extent that Texas is still viewed as healthy. The poor economy has taken longer to affect Texas, but it is starting to take its toll. VE is laying some off and so are others around Houston. AK dropped quite a few awhile back.

5 - it's a reference to a comment from a post last week. An obscure reference, but a good one. Bravo 3!

"However, there are numerous firms here that are still growing, like Bracewell & Giuliani"

Are you high? This claim alone undermines the credibility of the rest of your statement.

any word on start dates in Texas?

any word on start dates in Texas?

6 = Haynes Boone troll. Didn't you guys freeze salaries?

any word on start dates in Texas?

any word on start dates in Texas?

Headline ends in preposition.

14, 15, and 17--no reputable firm that I know of has pushed start dates back. We have a lot of months to go though. If we start the summer programs without pushing start dates into Jan., the worst I would expect is pushing them back to Nov. 1

What the fuck is Haines and Boone? It sounds like it involves sodomy and racism.

@ 13 - not at BG, so this could be wrong, but a friend there told me PPP went up by some ridiculous percentage in 2008, and that they think they're going to break into the AmLaw 100 when the numbers come out. We'll see, though.

7 - were patent litigation people laid off in Austin @ BB ?

Although not strictly "Southern," Texas still maintains some of that Southern discretion. You know, that whole, "my daddy is a drunk and beats my mother, but we don't talk it and we'd rather pretend it never happened" thing. It's cultural; you don't air your dirty laundry for everyone else to see.

Texas is afraid of you, Elie, and your muck-raking skills, which more than compensate for your apparent unfamiliarity with the English language.

This would never happen in TEXAS.

Well stated 24.

lol @ vinson

So which Texas firms have had lay-offs?

V&E, Baker Botts, Andrews Kurth, for sure. Are there any others?

Thompson Knight? I thought I had heard that Haynes and Boone had knocked off a few as well.

And what about Texas offices of NYC firms? Have they had reductions as well?

28 - what is up at Vinson? how many layoffs? any talk of summer? will there still be a SA retreat?

Has anyone read the Amlaw article? It said Vinson did no layoffs.

Has anyone read the Amlaw article? It said Vinson did no layoffs.

Why are the women in Texas so much bigger than say the women in Virginia?

UVA2L

Comment 24=On the Money

v&e has not had any layoffs -- only performance based.

their leverage is so damn low (like 9th lowest of all amlaw firms), they'd approach wachtell leverage if they laid many people off!

Give texas back to Mexico!

What is Elie afraid of? Why can't he admit that maybe TX is just doing better? Maybe he is intimidated by our larger stature.

My Hubby is billing 185+ a month. It give me lots of time to clean my mansion. And when he gets home, there is some sweet southern hospitality waiting...because after all, he has paid for it.

Only steers and queers come from Texas, and Elie, you don't look like a steer to me.

#36 = General Santa Ana

v&e is actually trying to increase leverage, so layoffs probably aren't in the cards right now. they're at like 2.9 associates per lawyer (it's 1.9 associates per partner). even w/o any voluntary attrition and 100% offers to summers, leverage would probably not surpass 3.5, which is where hogan hartson is.

I'll fight anyone from Texas. I've got Jack Johnson and Tom O'Leary waiting for them, right here.

13-

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but BG is def still growing. By growing, I'm referring to RPL, the huge increase in PPP last year, large summer classes, large first year incoming classes, and increasing numbers in their various offices. What do you consider when you say they're not growing?

Also, VE has not had any layoffs. The only confirmed layoffs among top firms are BB and AK. Gardere, Winstead, KLGates, etc., have all laid off people in TX... but who really cares? I also suspect that TK has been doing some stealth layoffs and may be forced to make larger ones soon (their summer class was dramatically scaled back, their Dallas office didn't grow last year despite over 10 new first years, and their hours billed as listed on NALP fell by an avg of almost 100 hours last year to around 1800).

Jones Day just opened an office in Dubai.

If I had the choice between living in texas and living in sub-Saharan Africa, I would pick Africa.

They may have AIDS, but they don't have that giant texas Super AIDS I keep hearing about.

AHAHAHAH

"WAH WAH TEXAS FIRMS WON'T SHARE THINGS WITH OUR SHITTY WEBSITE THAT BLOWS EVERYTHING WAY OUT OF PROPORTION THEY MUST BE COWARDS"

Jesus Christ this website is fucking pathetic. Get an inside source or shut the fuck up.

45,

You know what's pathetic? texas. And the people dumb enough to live there.

The only reason texas firms aren't reporting numbers is because they can't count past 10.

"unlike New York and the West Coast, not everybody's being candid"

Since when are NY and California firms being candid about their layoffs? Isn't the point of this blog to post leaked memos about salary freezes, late start dates, and stealth firings? Fuck, Elie, if you are going to be a lazy turd and copy another article, at least try to copy one that isn't complete bullshit.

THIS IS PURE ENVY!!! amlaw and the rest of the legal profession is so ny centric, and ny biglaw is DYING, so they can't understand why carnage hasn't swept through texas as well.

instead of wondering about why texas firms are hiding layoffs, they should consider the possibility that the future of business and the law has shifted elsewhere.

watch charlie gibson's world news tonight and wed -- broadcasting from houston and asking how TX has avoided economic damage.

3 -- it's L-e-x-u-s. Best vehicles around.

The East Coast and West Coast firms were doing the same thing until the sh*t really hit the fan. As you well know, Texas is a world unto itself, and everyone is still praying that things won't get as bad as they are on the coasts. Some firms have been insulated from serious pain, so until it gets much worse, your "everyone else is doing it" analysis doesn't hold water. Don't you think the Texas firms learned their lesson about trying to follow the National firm lead with the $160k-for-first-year’s debacle.

Seems to me like all you haters need to taken out back to the wood shed to make friends with a switch!

50 - its T-O-Y-O-T-A, actually

BG Houston--in all departments-- has little work to go around, and laid off numerous people earlier this year (it's pretty crappy of the firm to say that they are all performance based). BG also de-equitized massive number of partners too.

There is little work at Baker Botts (Corporate) Houston and VE (Litigation) Houston. Not sure about HayBo, but they did freeze salary.

46 - go home to your 400 sqft crappy apt in brooklyn, and try not to get robbed on the way home.

or, if you live in CA, go do your taxes (oh wait -- you can't -- b/c CA is going bankrupt and has decided to give IOUs rather than refunds, not that anyone gets tax refunds anyway in CA b/c the rates are so high).

Y'allre just jealous because we got the good big 'uns.

55 - go back to that cow you have sex with at night.

45 - right on!

V&E start dates are in Sep. I don't know about layoffs, but in at least one of their incoming classes they added another new associate to start in Sep. (a refugee from another firm that's pushed back start dates). The increasing leverage comments above look legit.

texas - America's asshole.

If everyone in Texas has AIDS, does that mean all SMUs have AIDS?

The East Coast and West Coast firms were doing the same thing until the sh*t really hit the fan. As you well know, Texas is a world unto itself, and everyone is still praying that things won't get as bad as they are on the coasts. Some firms have been insulated from serious pain, so until it gets much worse, your "everyone else is doing it" analysis doesn't hold water. Don't you think the Texas firms learned their lesson about trying to follow the National firm lead with the $160k-for-first-year’s debacle.

10 - There's no such thing as a large firm in Texas.

Also, 53 nailed it.

The East Coast and West Coast firms were doing the same thing until the sh*t really hit the fan. As you well know, Texas is a world unto itself, and everyone is still praying that things won't get as bad as they are on the coasts. Some firms have been insulated from serious pain, so until it gets much worse, your "everyone else is doing it" analysis doesn't hold water. Don't you think the Texas firms learned their lesson about trying to follow the National firm lead with the $160k-for-first-year’s debacle.

3500 sq ft, wife, lexis, need I say more

FW Bigger Law

3500 sq ft wife, lexis, need I say more

FW Bigger Law

3500 sq ft wife, lexis, need I say more

FW Bigger Law

59 -- that's hilarious! many firms are pushing start dates back, meanwhile texas firms are ADDING associates to their sept start dates!

looks like NY is america's a-hole, not texas!

What is a SMU?

68, 59 here. No need to gloat. I'm sure V&E is not immune; every firm needs the economy to pick up.

7: I would think that a class size that was only a little bit smaller wouldn't be a positive but a negative.

who would want to live there anyway!? it's way too hot! lol!

3500 sq ft is a lot of prestige.

who would want to live there anyway!? it's way too hot! lol!

who would want to live there anyway!? it's way too hot! lol!

Nice math, 40. Let's play "spot the obvious logical absurdity?"

"v&e is actually trying to increase leverage, so layoffs probably aren't in the cards right now. they're at like 2.9 associates per lawyer (it's 1.9 associates per partner). even w/o any voluntary attrition and 100% offers to summers, leverage would probably not surpass 3.5, which is where hogan hartson is."

That's quite a deal they have going there, 2.9 associates for every lawyer.

Others are kinda right but 54 is more right. BG has been doing layoffs but it was also growing very fast until recently. Their profitability was partly being driven by their energy practice, which was doing massive project finance and structured finance deals (more weight in this regard than would be expected of a firm its size). First 3 quarters of 2008 was great but the credit market collapse in September hit them (and every other firm in Texas) just the same as everyone else. Texas firms may be better positioned than others, since the downturn hit them later, but the fundamental problem is the same and they have been dealing with it the same way: a) performance-based layoffs, and when that is not enough, b) public layoffs. Only some firms have reached B, but almost all are already on A.

Oh, and Elie, seriously, don't pretend you are so clever. "Suspicions you've had for a while"? Don't you mean tips that you have received but haven't confirmed and/or printed?

any words on Fulbright?

any words on Fulbright?

Don't mess with people who have inferiority complexes...

80 - That defines 99% of New York lawyers.

60 = America's Asshole

Texans are just better than the rest of you Northeastern gays. Don't question it.

"14, 15, and 17--no reputable firm that I know of has pushed start dates back."

20: Baker Botts has pushed back start dates to October or November.

What if I am from Colorado? Am I a gay?

You said it yourself, you are not on expert on Texas or Texans.

Simply put, we don't need your approval, praise, consideration or input on what decisions we make, how we communicate, or how we manager our businesses in general.

Now go pester some weak minded "feel good" weenie from someplace where character is something you write about and tell others how theirs should be rather then live.

V&E most definitely HAS laid off many!

You said it yourself, you are not on expert on Texas or Texans.

Simply put, we don't need your approval, praise, consideration or input on what decisions we make, how we communicate, or how we manager our businesses in general.

Now go pester some weak minded "feel good" weenie from someplace where character is something you write about and tell others how theirs should be rather then actually live it.

MysTTTal,

Maybe it's because Texas hasn't gone socialist and thus isn't failing like the CoasTTTs.

You said it yourself, you are not on expert on Texas or Texans.

Simply put, we don't need your approval, praise, consideration or input on what decisions we make, how we communicate, or how we manage our businesses in general.

Now go pester some weak minded "feel good" weenie from someplace where character is something you write about and tell others how theirs should be rather then actually live your with it.

You said it yourself, you are not on expert on Texas or Texans.

Simply put, we don't need your approval, praise, consideration or input on what decisions we make, how we communicate, or how we manage our businesses in general.

Now go pester some weak minded "feel good" weenie from someplace where character is something you write about and tell others how theirs should be rather then actually live your with it.

Nice hiccups - guess the post monitors didn't care for the message.

"V&E most definitely HAS laid off many"

Details?

Fulbright is doing stealth layoffs. First-years included.

My mother-in-law is from Texas and she is a cunt.

Fulbright is doing stealth layoffs. First-years included.

91 -- I don't get it.

Gays are bigger in texas.

90-if Texans don't care about our approval, then why do one of you jackasses show up in every comment section of a story to gloat about Texas?

98: Becasue every time we do it snags a great reaction from any coaster.

Same reason y'all like to poke fun at Texas. You always get a reaction.

84 is gay...totally gay.

I hope Mexico annexes Texas. Isn't the rest of the country over Texas? I mean, what exactly has it contributed to the nation? It is the state where a President was murdered. It also managed to bungle the investigation into the murder by somehow allowing the shooter to be murdered- while in Dallas police custody. It gave us LBJ, the Cowboys and the Bushes. Please, Mexico, take Texas off our hands. As for layoffs, I am sure all the major firms are laying off and the poor associates are just taking it laying down. They probably have been told to keep their mouths shut and maybe they will be rehired at some future date. In reality, Texas is a small state. You have Dallas and Houston with Dallas residents thinking that they are more cultured than the riff raff that call Houston home. Bizarre state.

Hey, 101. We have a saying down here in Texas, and that saying is "Fuck you"

Y'all can go to hell, I'm going to Texas

101 -- Mexico had us and couldn't keep us.

102 is right

Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you flat out. If he's not, there's no need to embarrass him.

To quote General Philip Sheridan, "If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent Texas and live in Hell."

I would rather get raped by King Kong than live in texas. If I were a politician, my national platform would be centered on trading texas for Guatemala, Honduras, or any other third world country, as they are still far superior to America's worthless asshole.

Homosexuality is bigger in texas.

I'm from Texas and still live in Texas and I never got a big law job... But I still sleep well at night knowing that I can still whip your ass!

This just in: scientists have discovered what causes AIDS, cancer, obesity, retardation, and pedophilia.

texas.

I'm from Texas and still live in Texas and I never got a big law job... But I still sleep well at night knowing that I can still whoop your ass!

110,

I can tell you're from texas because you don't know how to form a correct sentence. Have fun with your job at the box factory!

Hey, 102, that's the best you can come up with? "F... you?" How old are you-15?

I will let you in on a little secret known already by the other 49 states: Mexico has already annexed Texas- Texans just have not come to terms with it.The days when Texans could strut around like they are starring in the film "Giant" or live at "Southfork" are long over. The center of the universe in the US, like it or not, is Washington, D.C. (and I am not saying I like it- its just the reality).

110 sounds like a huge homosexual. Much bigger than the gays we have on the east coast.

160 in TX = 325 in NY.

Suck it.

112, try not to go to the "how old are you?" card too quick. It makes it appear that you have run out of things to say. And that's clearly not the case because
you just exposed yourself as being out of touch with reality. The US revolves around New York City. Washington, DC? Are you serious?

At any rate, I doubt anyone from Texas would claim to be "the center of the universe in the US." We can agree on that much.

@102

102 is still right

106 - Well if General Phillip Sheridan says so...

Who in the fuck is that?

I love how everyone has knives out for one of the few states whose economy hasn't yet swirled down the toilet.

Why fuckers? Because you're all addicted to oil and no matter how many alternative energy or stop global warming initiatives you support, you still need us.

I would probably be mad if I were you too. But just know that your anger and malice makes us really happy; maybe even gleeful. Keep it coming yankees.

Texas firms have a built in salary reduction. With their "deferred compensation" system, a substantial portion of an associate's compensation is not paid out until they hit 2000 hours. Many won't hit that this year. Thus a senior associate with total compensation of $260k, will likely only end up getting $190k. This system probably makes it easier for TX firms to avoid layoffs.

Texas can get along just fine without the United States. But, the United States cannot, without great hazard, exist without Texas.

119 - spot on, spot on.

117 and 119 are right also

The center of the universe is also the gravitational center of the universe. Ergo, it is where all the shit and garbage collects...

You're right. DC it is.

hey, can any NY firms pay me this much?

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

Suck it.

122,

I thought all the shit ran downhill from Oklahoma into texas. At least that's what all the rednecks say.

Sri Lanka > texas

Inferiority complexes are bigger in texas.

texas is like Mexico's gay cousin.

No 124. Oklahoma is the land we "gave" the Indians. Don't confuse downhill with a cardinal direction.

102,

We have a saying in the other 49 states: "Give texas back to Mexico."

Of course, Mexicans have apparently already taken texas over anyway, and texans just took it on their backs.

Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may.

No layoffs at my LARGE Texas firm.

No layoffs at my LARGE Texas firm.

Re: Start dates in Houston

V&E is still planning a Sept. start; BakerBotts is set for mid-October; King and Spaulding's office is a no-go until Jan. 2010, and Haynes and Boone has not announced, but won't be starting before Oct. 1.

I don't know about the rest.

No layoffs at my LARGE Texas firm.

Every single discussion involving Texas, even tangentially, degenerates into an us v. them rant. Can we get over it? How 'bout people at these Texas firms give us the details on the rumors about layoffs? I am at V&E, and as far as I know, there have not been layoffs.

124

So...You're saying you listen to rednecks?

122 (a NYer, BTW)

135 = them

Oh, seriously, 137. Bill some hours or find something better to do.

Let's see. Do we talk shit about Oklahoma, Illinois, Tennessee, New Jersey, Maine, etc???

Nope, we only focus on the states that actually have an impact...Cali, NY & Texas.

I appreciate all three, and anyone who doesn't is incapable of seeing the obvious. No go back to xoxo where you belong...

135 - It's because the thread is entitled "What is Texas Afraid of." The implication being that Texas is engaged in a massive conspiracy to keep layoff information under wraps and that fear controls disclosure decisions here.

It's just another fine example of some faggy Northeastern slob sitting behind a computer and stirring the pot with thousands of miles of geography to protect him. I bet Elie would squeal like a pig if he found himself toe to toe with one of us.

Yes, 135 definitely = them.

By the way, thanks 123.

I calculated that $190,000 in Dallas is the equivalent of $453,000 in Manhattan.

I would say that Texas firms aren't discussing layoffs because Texans actually have some pride and dignity and aren't a bunch of gossipy twits who are constantly up in other people's business.

I would say that Texas firms aren't discussing layoffs because Texans actually have some pride and dignity and aren't a bunch of gossipy twits who are constantly up in other people's business.

141 - I calculated that I'd rather be cock-punched to death in Manhattan than make $453,000 in Dallas.

Texas has given us the Fajita, the corn dog, oil, Prosser and Keeton on Torts, wide swaths of Constitutional Law, the Texas Railroad Commission, and the writings of Charles Alan Wright.

144 = Gay

130 - wrong

texas has submitted to occupation. That's why 20% of the state is from Mexico.

Everything's gayer in texas.

New York lawyers are all ugly dorks who evidently act tough on message boards but when you see them in person you just feel sorry for them. The kind of dudes who go jogging in the park for exercise...

147, re-read 130 and try again.

I love how people pretend the economy is somehow OK in Texas.

102 is still right

There haven't been any lay-offs at V&E. A few associates have lost their jobs for performance-based reasons (like 4) and a few staff have faced the same cut, but no lay-offs per se.

Better check your numbers, 153. It's a lot more than 4 attorneys that were told to leave. And not because they were bad attorneys either.

I'm baffled by the people who say that Texas is worse than hell, the worst state in the whole country, and so on. Is this just hyperbole? I don't love Texas and I can think of at least a dozen cities I'd rather live in than Dallas, but, seriously, have you ever been to Arkansas or Alabama, and any one of the like 40 other states that are just plain awful. For Christ's sake, does Louisiana even have an economy?

I'm baffled by the people who say that Texas is worse than hell, the worst state in the whole country, and so on. Is this just hyperbole? I don't love Texas and I can think of at least a dozen cities I'd rather live in than Dallas, but, seriously, have you ever been to Arkansas or Alabama, or any one of the like 40 other states that are just plain awful? For Christ's sake, does Louisiana even have an economy?

139 – Extremely well put. 139’s comment explains 99% of all of the negative comments made about Texas by the commenters on this site.

80, 126 – The tendency of commentors on this site to make completely ridiculous assertions about Texas suggests just the opposite conclusion. People with inferiority complexes tend to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to cut down the people that make them feel inferior. 99% of the comments on this site made about Texas are negative. Therefore… well you get it. Also, please keep up the negative commenting as it does nothing but further supports 139’s conclusion.

139 and 157: Do not flatter yourselves. Texas and California are not states that anyone gives a crap about. California is broke and Texas is on the way to becoming a colony of the Mexican drug cartels. For all of the tough talk by the Texans on this post, the reality is you are being overrun by your neighbors to the south. As for your vaunted legal system, how is Judge Kent doing these days?

Small office of BIG FIRM in Texas. It is a grease fire. Start date pushed, salaries frozen, summer program trimmed, partner draws slashed.

In other words, smoke em' if you got em.'

That said, all the NYC trolls on here who get off on trashing Texas can go to hell. I went to college on the east coast, and I can say with full confidence that trash is trash, and there is no trash like NYC/Jersey trash.

I've heard similar things about Phoenix, AZ--firms there aren't nearly as candid as the CA and NY firms are about layoffs. They just stealth layoff people in a trickle, as opposed to all at once.

159 - are you in a small non-TX office of a TX firm (ie BB DC)? Or the TX office of a non-TX firm (ie K&S Houston)?

161 - neither. I will never tell.

I draft written consents that make grown men weep. My 10-Qs flirt with eloquence, all the while fully complying with the mandates of Reg S-K.

I want to be an author, but writing for reals is so very hard. Instead, I craft "Whereas" clauses with infinite care and wait for my soul to finally perish.

A friend of mine who works at DLA told me that the firm ceased to exist 6 months ago, and everything since then has been the work of elaborate holograms. Everyone got 3 years severance, plus a gold watch.

Same thing at Skadden.

Shut this post down, all the comments are the same. Texas sucks, New York sucks, everyone is gay. 135 got it right--post if you have some intel. Otherwise, go home to your classy 3500 square foot wife.

Am I prestigious?

To be fair, your money does go further in Dallas or houston, but honestly a good chunk of that is state income/city earnings taxes and treating manhattan like sugarland.

Look, manhattan is downtown NYC basically. Now you can get a nice steak dinner in texas for 40 a pop, but its prob at a chain in a suburb. Face it, there is no "downtown" dallas or houston. They are both ghettos that have only in the last 15 years been partially revitalized. There is no "nice area" except for maybe the upscaly strip mall areas and chain nice resteraunts. I know you texans think pf changs is the shit, but its not.

Yeah, your money goes further in texas. It also goes further if all you eat is ramen. We don't care. After living in that hot, swarmy, lifeless, metro-wannabe hellhole for 18 years, I can say that NYC, even with its trash and all, is way better. I miss the mexican food, but i'll live. You can stay in houston or dallas and like it.

Basically, if you wanna compare the "cost of living" in NYC to Texas, you gotta consider living in hoboken or Brooklyn, or hell, even staten island. Dallas or Houston has NOTHING even close to resembling Manhattan (other than harlem, actually). And when you do those kinds of comparisons, suddenly your 160 isnt 320. Its more like maybe 200-240. Its still more, but you get stuck with 400 dollar a month utility bills to keep from dying of heat exhaustion in the summer and have to drive everywhere to do anything. Oh yeah, and deal with dry counties.

Have fun

Texas is a bunch of crazy rednecks, stay out of Texas if you are from California or New York, you will hate it there. It is hot and all the people are dumb.

Signed,
A New Yorker who has called Texas home for 15 years and loves it despite the crazy rednecks and wants all Yanks to stay away because he likes the cheap Real Estate. God bless Texas.

I'm staff @ B&G. The AmLaw article quoting Evans was largely accurate.

Yes, they've cut back on some secretarial staff & trimmed a few other positions.

Yes, they let some attorneys go on "performance" ... and many of those really were. They do it every year; maybe this year it affected a few more people. I spoke with some who were leaving, and they knew why they'd been canned. Were some "performance-based" departures really stealth layoffs? Maybe - I don't know.

Someone mentioned very high PPP in 2008 - true.

Someone else said that all of B&G-Houston was crying for work - not true. Some sections are hurting; others can't keep up with the work.

No internal news about partners losing equity, but maybe I've been eavesdropping on the wrong convos.

The whole firm has been told to cut & delay expenses wherever we can, but that's happening everywhere, including in my own home. They keep telling us we're going to weather this storm without layoffs, and I really really hope they're not feeding us a load of BS.

166 is a freshman at NYU, so watch out, he's an expert on everything

Other than what's been reported here -- Winstead, K&L Gates, Gardere, Baker Botts, Winstead, etc. -- doesn't seem like there have been signficant lay offs.

Firms are either being really quiet, or it's not happening... yet. I don't think there's some conspiracy of honor or such bs. Plenty of ugly stuff gets leaked by Texas lawyers (and I'll certianly help if I ever get my hands on any. Gossip or maybe sunlight is supposedly a good disinfectant or something like that)

Winstead has always been shady. No wonder it won't just come out and say it fired a bunch of people, including first years.

I'm not sure why they would be hiding this information. It makes no sense to do so.

166 - there are a million things wrong about your assessment of Houston, but the most glaring is your assertion about our restaurants. Houston is consistently ranked one of the Top 10 cities in America for restaurants. (That's one reason why our ladies are 3500 sq. ft.) Accord with 169 - you're either an NYU student from Pearland or you haven't lived here in 20 years.

Comments from Texans re: the truth about lay-offs have all been correct from my experience. The top tier BigTex firms have had relatively few lay-offs, but enough that everyone is quietly talking about it. It's not drawing a lot of attention because they aren't cutting 200 people all on the same day. Baker Botts has admitted to economy-driven lay-offs. V&E may be claiming performance-driven, and who the hell knows for sure, but they've made more "performance-driven" cuts in the last couple of months than in the last few years combined. Just to reiterate, we're still only talking about a few associates in each office.

Bottom tier Texas firms (hello Winstead) are doing New York-style lay-offs with huge chunks of staff, associates, and even partners getting axed.

Texas offices of NY-based firms have been suffering, too, although the numbers are (proportionately, of course) not quite as bad as their main offices.

It's not that we're immune to the recession down here, but the impact just isn't felt as strongly (yet...).

Oops, forgot to mention: no salary freezes in Texas, no significantly delayed start dates or canceled summer programs, either (excepting Winstead).

-172

New York smells bad

166 = racist

Haha, funny how people assume I go to NYU.

Anyway, 172, you say Houston is top 10 restaurants in the country, but you know what, you are the 5th largest city. The fact you arent top 5 means they are worse than they should be (assuming the larger size should provide more variety). And of course you have nothing to back that up anyway.

And you are right, I'm not from Houston, I'm from Dallas and Austin. I do like the area around Rice and have several friends in Houston, and visit pretty often. Its so fun to have to drive around 20 miles to do anything fun.

But still, being as you are from Houston, chances are you hated NY since you were young and hate NYC even though you've never been to anything outside of west mid-town. (hint, no one from new york EVER goes there except to show their out of town family around or go to a play)

Have fun in texas. Someone is a little sensitve...

-166

FYI- In Texas that would be "yeller" and not "yella"

Gays are bigger in Texas.

Texas is larger-than-life legends like Michael DeBakey, Denton Cooley, Willie Nelson, Buddy Holly, Waylon Jennings, Janis Joplin, Kris Kristofferson, Tom Landry, Darrell Royal, ZZ Top, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Nolan Ryan, Sam Rayburn, George Bush, Lyndon B.Johnson, and George W. Bush.

Texas is great companies like Dell Computer, Texas Instruments and Southwest Airlines, and LOCKHEED MARTIN AEROSPACE - Home of the F-16 Jet Fighter and the JSF Fighter.

Texas is NASA.

Texas is huge herds of cattle and miles of crops.

Texas is skies blackened with doves, and fields full of deer.

Texas is a place where towns and cities shut down to watch the local High School Football game on Friday nights and for the Cowboys on Monday Night Football, and for the Night In Old San Antonio River Parade in San Antonio.

Texas is ocean beaches, deserts, lakes and rivers, mountains and prairies, and modern cities.

If it isn't in Texas, you probably don't need it.

No one does anything bigger or better than it's done in Texas.

By federal law, Texas is the only state in the U.S. that can fly its flag at the same height as the U.S. flag. Think about that for a second. You fly the Stars and Stripes at 20 feet in Maryland, California, or Maine and your state flag, whatever it is, goes at 17 feet. You fly the Stars and Stripes in front of Pine Tree High in Longview or any place else at 20 feet, the Lone Star flies at the same height - 20 feet. Do you know why? Because it is the only state that was a republic before it became a state. Texas was the only state to join the U.S. through treaty, not annexation.

Also, being a Texan is as high as being an American down here. Our Capitol is the only one in the country that is taller than the capitol building in Washington, D.C. and we can divide our state into five states at any time if we wanted to! We included these things as part of the deal when we came on. That's the best part, right there.

Texas even has its own power grid!!

I'm not saying I hate other places , quite the contrary - NYC, Chicago, DC, etc. all have wonderful attributes and I love visiting them.

Every one of the Texas nay-sayers are simply whining and tossing out infantile, puerile, pedantic gibberish.

179 = racist and a liar

180 - If you were right I'd agree with you.

Oh, and thanks for proving the point of the last sentence in 179's post.

166 - In other words, you haven't got the fortitude to make it in Texas. Fine by us, keeps you out of our gene pool.

180 = infantile, puerile, pedantic gibberish

V&E is da bomb

So everyone in Texas is not dumb and fat, but really intelligent and full of culture?

Growing up in New York was great. I loved not ever having a nice car because the salt on the roads in the winter rusted everything out every 3 years and the car would constantly get dinged up in the city. I also loved public transportation, being able to live without a car so you could squeeze onto a crowded train and get stuck next to a crackhead with BO was the highlight of my day.

Also the rent was awesome. In Texas I can get a nice apartment with a pool, workout room, covered parking and nice business office for under $1000 a month. It only cost me four times that in New York. Oh and I like the fact that I also had to pay state and city income tax in NY, rather let them have that money to not clean up the buses.

I try to discourage my family from visiting me in Texas because if they found out how good it is down here they would all try to move en masse. In fact I have an uncle who just relocated.

I like being able to jump in my car and drive anywhere I want. I like never having to worry about snow. I like that I am not forced into terrible public transportation. I like being able to get a burrito in February and eat it outside on a porch. I like the fact that when it gets hot I can count on everywhere having A/C. (I hate visiting NY in the summer, not all of my family has A/C and if they do it is window units.) I like the fact that most beaches and pools do not have lifeguards, because I grew tired of the nanny-state mentality that is the northeast.

So you can have NY, or LA, or any other city you think is superior, I'll have Texas.

As Ray Wylie Hubbard sang: "Screw you, we're from Texas!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkxpOKIvyQM

166 and 179 should get together -- look at those sparks!

179, from one Texan to another, to the extent you're serious, please shut up. I was born in Dallas, grew up in a much smaller town (shudder) went to UT, left for law school, but came back to Dallas, but I still have never understood the knee-jerk devotion to this state (maybe because half my family is from the midwest, but I digress). It's nice. Good cost of living. Decent winters for the most part (those who bash the summers are correct, but I've suffered more in the heat in Chicago where I had to walk to work in it -- and everyone either has a/c here or knows how to deal w/ it).. Pretty scenery, etc. In the last election, all the urban centers finally turned blue (thanks for joining us Harris Co.), so perhaps there's hope that we won't be W-lovin' sops forever.

But seriously, realism, please. Beaches? Where? Don't compare South Padre, to a real beach. We're too much in awe of property rights, so don't care about clean water or pretty coastlines. We also really need to catch up w/. arts and culture (Dallas is trying after losing Boeing to Chicago for that reason a few years ago). Our mass transit is nascent -- a good start, but let's get it going (especially to Arlington -- how in the hell are you going to host a Super Bowl w/o even having public buses?? What are you trying to protect by keeping out DART?)

The gloriifcation in small towns of high school football is another bizarre aspect -- by all means, let's elevate a bunch of kids to god-like status. that will be good for their long-term growth....

166 has no idea what they're talking about. A person could eat out for dinner in Houston at a different restaurant every night for over a year without repeating. Dallas has quite a few fine dining options - Wolfgang Puck just opened a new restaurant here, not to mention Charlie Palmer, Dean Fearing, Stephan Pyles, and the Rathbun brothers. Dallasites do not drive to suburbs to do anything.

king and spalding texas is a hellhole - they have been laying folks off for months

however, one of their lady partners is allegedly a lesbian who has a reputation for sleeping with clients - gotta love that - does anyone have any photos ?

178 - you are right about that. all of the gay partners at haynes and boone (a/k/a gayboone or brokeback boone) are all over 6 feet tall. several came out of the closet after being married and having kids. wonder how their wives felt about that ... you prefer the smell of lubricant and fecal matter ...

187 - Of course I am serious so there is no need to shut-up, or turn into some weak-willed, spineless apologist. I love Texas, including the things that make it challenging at times because I know we have the ability and spirit to make things better.

Your remark that "all the urban centers finally turned blue" is all the insight I need. You prefer heavy government intrustion and the redistribution of wealth. No thanks, that doesn't work well for me. I bet you loved that Congress wanted to tax bonuses at 90%. Talk about kill motivation to do more then just enough.

Damn straight we believe in property rights. We do not live in a commune. Surely you don't think that is what either the U.S. or the Texas State Consitution had in mind? We do believe in helping our neighbors when they need it. Of our own volition, not because the government plays Robin Hood - who was still a thief by the way.

Catch up in arts and culture? Do you mean mimic another city? Why? If you do then you have no culture.

And as for what is being glorified on those Friday nights, it is the beautiful desire to win and all that goes into it; the spirit of competition, the value of hard work, dedication, sacrifice and genuine community - being a part of something bigger then yourself.

You want left-wing compatriot "we're all special in our own unique way" hugs, then take 75 north sport.

Look, I grew up in Texas, left for an Ivy League undergrad, came back to Texas, left again for a midwest law school, and now I'm back in Dallas working at BigLaw. I will admit this place isn't for everyone. I've spent large portions of my life in Chicago, NY and DC. Dallas is different. It's no eutopia, but the cost of living issue is significant. As for me, I live a bit like a NYer... I live in an affluent area of condos and high rise apartments, live in 850 square foot bliss with a gorgeous view, a conceirge, a rooftop pool -- and even as nice as that is pay only $2.50 a square foot in rent. I consider this a bargain, most of my fellow Texans would balk at such a price, but it's the life I choose. I walk to work, bars and restaurants, many of them nationally known including Craft, Tom Collichio's restaurant (which will deliver to my door) and Fearing's. Still, there is not nearly the culture here as there is in NY or even Chicago, and public transportation is nil. I think we recognize that. For some people, that's an enormous problem (though the museums in Fort Worth are world class and not far away). I also live 20 minutes from an airport that probably has 30 direct flights a day to NYC, and the nice thing is, I'm not solely limited to 250 hours a month of doc review or due diligence (never touch the stuff), so I actually have time to take those trips. What I save in state income taxes alone vs. a New Yorker covers the cost of those flights, and that's before you get into other living expense increases.

Look, NY is great. I don't bash it, other than I don't understand why you people voluntarily pay an extra ~$20k a year in taxes to live somewhere. I take a few trips there a year, and many of my best friends live there. Same for DC and Chicago. But we're not all hicks, we're not all rednecks, we're not all Republicans, we're not all inbred and some of us, God forbid, have CHOSEN to live here. We work in smaller outposts of large firms so that we have a chance to do real, substantive work. In the meantime, we make the same you all make. For me, that makes sense. For you, maybe you just want three years of paychecks from BigLaw to get out of debt and then your chance to live life how you like it. Mazel Tov. I like it here, I like BigLaw, I'm excited to go to work every day. And that more than I can say about most BigLaw NYers I know. At the very least, try living here -- or hell, at least visiting -- before you blindly bash a collective group of people.

And Elie, that goes double for you. I invite you to leave the comforts of your desk up there and see what life is like west of the Hudson. Heck, we've probably even got a four-star hotel or two around here that might suit your tastes.

186 - You're entitled to your opinion, but you lose all credibility when you refer to lifeguards as indicative of a nanny state. Seriously? Lifeguards? Enjoy the riptide.

192 - Well said. I too have lived in other states and live in Texas by choice. There were aspects of those other states that I enjoyed and fondly remember and would not exchange my experience there for all the barbecue in Texas.

The cost of living is good, the natural beauty is vast, the choices almost unending as to entertainment and modes of living, working and playing.

191, so the choice as you see is between no regulations, enviromental protection etc. v. living on a commune. I'd suggest there's a happy medium, but that might be beyond you. Texas' inordinate devotion to property rights is illustrated nicely by the total lack of zoning in Houston. Thus, in one of my favorite examples, you get a porn shop right next to the Galleria -- a stone's throw from Neimans. Y

166/176 I'm not assuming you attend(ed) NYU. I figure you couldn't get into college based on your responses.

192 and 194---y'all make me want to move back to Texas.

193 "You're entitled to your opinion, but you lose all credibility when you refer to lifeguards as indicative of a nanny state. Seriously? Lifeguards? Enjoy the riptide."

Thank you very much, I will enjoy the riptide if I want to because I am free to do so in Texas, all year around. But I said beaches and pools, and I was thinking of the lakes here, so no riptides there. And if I drown I can only blame myself. In NY I could not even swim in a state lake like Taconic without a nanny-state lfeguard, and any decent pool in a apartment complex was closed for a good part of the year, sorry that is lame.

People like you enjoy living in places where you are told what to do and when to do it, and that's fine. Now go take your pink iPod and jog through Central Park, and try not to get mugged.

P.S. Stop acting like there is sand in your vagina.

Don't mess with Texas.

I don't get it. So Texas IS a nice and classy place to live?

179 - when you said something about "great companies like Dell Computer," I immediately stopped reading and knew you were full of shit.

195 - No, you're the one who prefers to draw the "either/or" conclusion. What's beyond me is why you feel compelled to impose your belief on others. If you don't like living in Texas then leave. That is one of the great joys of living in this COuntry - you have choice. Perhaps if you exercised that as much as your desire to save people who don't need saving everyone would be happier.

Because Houston lacked zoning does not mean the entire State does. And by the way - those are all commercial enterprises. Whether you like what they sell or not is a different matter.

195- I know when you and your boyfriend are shopping at Neiman's you like to pickup some gay porn for the night, but don't knock that adult shop just because they only carry the straight stuff because your mom and I really enjoy shopping there.

200 - What, you were part of IBM's laptop division?

203,

No, I'm a guy who has had five hard drives and three optical drives replaced in one Dell laptop in just 2.5 years. Seriously, fuck Dell. The whole company is incompetent.

54 - you are correct. B&G Houston laid off several associates earlier this year. Some partners might be claiming that no layoffs are occurring, but I was one of those laid off and recall several open conversations with colleagues who knew what was going on and feared that they would be next in line. The number of associates I know of personally who have been laid off within the past several months leads me to believe that the extent of cuts is deeper then most people realize.

Sources from B&G can continue to claim that these were all performance-based, but if so, it's a very scary place to work. Why would anyone want to go work for a place that cuts a substantial number of associates for performance-based reasons every year?

200- I smell a hardcore Mac Kool-Aid drinker. Glad to see you spending 3x as much money on your Mac for the same usability I get on my Dell. Keep obeying Steve Jobs like a good slave.

204 - I've never had any trouble with Dell products or service in almost 17 years as a customer. Sorry to hear about your situation.

I still like the company and its story - started in a college dorm room and look what it grew into.

205 - Why would you want to work for a firm that cuts people for performance reasons? Why would you want to work someplace that DOESN'T cut people for performance reasons?

Do you really want to work someplace that keeps poor perfomers around AND pays them the same as the strong performer? Huh. Sounds like Congress.

206,

Read my second post you dumb fuck. I don't own a Mac.

-200, 204

does anyone have photos of the lesbian partner at king & spalding doing her client ? did she wear a strap on ?

208 - There's a reason I put the words "substantial number of associates" in there. Go take a look.

I don't know the exact numbers, but if you were a young attorney would you really want to go work for a place that has been known to cut 10% of its junior associates in one year for what it claims are "performance-based" reasons? Of course a limited number of cuts need to be made for performance reasons, but they shouldn't result in a substantial number of departures.

209- So please, enlighten me as to what computer you own that is so much more reliable than a Dell. And FYI I own one Dell, two Thinkpads, one Lenovo, and a Gateway. My cards are on the table, let's see yours.

54 - there is lots of work at hayboo (gayboone) if you are gay or willing to try to be gay. if you like the aroma of a frothy mix of lubricant and fecal matter, life is good at hayboo.

211 - Nothing wrong with 10% reduction in low performers. In the corp world that is called forced ranking - either put up or pack up. If I am good at what I do, then the bottom 10% doesn't scare me and it means that management appreciates the need to perform. 10% is hardly substantial - if you hire 10 people, that means only 1 gets whacked for not doing their job.

102 is still right

102 = 104 = 116 = 152 = 215

More proof that inferiority complexes are bigger in texas.

186/198,

Did it ever occur to you that the lifeguards are there for those people who can't swim as well as you? Or, just maybe, so your family doesn't sue after you drown? But if it makes you feel better to call me a sissy and make ridiculous assumptions because I think lifeguards are important, knock yourself out.

193

does anyone have photos of the lesbian partner at king & spalding doing her client ? did she wear a strap on ? i heard she and her "life partner" had a baby - apparently the life partner got inseminated with a turkey baster. is it true that the one of san francisco partners donated the sperm ?

216 - See 157, par. 2.

218 - no pictures here, but the lesbian partner has supposedly hooked up with another lady partner there who is married - this is good shit

176 -

Your logic that more people = better restaurants is... flawed, but I'll humor you with a citation anyways, because I'm a good lawyer and would never state a fact with "nothing to back it up":
http://www.forbestraveler.com/food-drink/restaurant-cities-story.html

You know what they say about assuming... I don't hate NYC. In fact, I lived there for several years and had a great time (although I wasn't exactly devastated when work brought me back to Texas). It's so fun to wait for the L at the 8th Ave. station for over an hour at 4 a.m. after drinking PBRs at the Village Idiot. Especially when some dude wearing 30 layers of clothes and reeking of urine is standing 10 feet away masturbating. I do kind of miss Smalls though--the one thing Houston's missing is a good jazz club.

But thanks for the hint about midtown, douchenozzle.

-172

Texas, the armpit of America

220 - yes, heard the same thing. the married lady must go both ways - she is really butch. her stay at home husband supposedly spends his days hitting on the beer cart girls on the golf course and table dances later at the local titty bar. king & spalding would make a great movie

king & spalding sounds like a great place to work - you get paid well and they throw in a floor show. can anyone join the 24/7 daisy chain ?

"But if it makes you feel better to call me a sissy and make ridiculous assumptions because I think lifeguards are important, knock yourself out. "

I didn't call you a sissy, but if I did call you a sissy it would not be because you think lifeguards are important. I would call you a sissy because I noticed your panties were in a bunch, which they are.

Taking risks is fun, I know his is hard for many attornies to accept, since going into law makes you one of the most risk adverse people in the world. But sometimes taking a risk is what you need to get the blood flowing, to allow you to feel like you are in control of your life. And better yet, it allows the truly dumb to make mistakes that thin the herd, good 'ol Darwinian theory at work.

But try ridning a motorcycle without a helmet, or driving your car at 150 MPH. Cliff diving in Mexico, get caught in a Civil War in southern Africa. I have an friend who drives straight to the coast anytime there is a hurricaine in the Gulf so he can go surfing. Is it crazy? Absolutley. Should he be allowed to do it without the state mandating that a life guard be on duty? I for one say let him have his freedom to risk his life for a thrill. And this is possible in Texas.

God bless Texas.

um. why would you believe a firm that is laying off people (like Vinson & Elkins) that it isn't laying off people?

That's like being surprised when the person you're having an affair with goes back on his or her word to leave his/her spouse for you.

Scum of the earth are scum of the earth, even if they deny it.

V&E has been doing several stealth layoffs and will continue to do it well into this year.

performance based. p'shaw. call shit whatever you want, it's still brown and it still stinks.

king and spalding rocks - they will do anything to get/steal a client - even from other partners at the firm - including libel and slander. i heard about the lesbian who likes to munch on the rug - she did this at a prior firm, and soon thereafter left ...

I have to check the King & Spalding website and try to guess who this mystery lesbian is. It should not be too hard.

We are not as fortunate at our firm- no floor shows- just mind numbing and soul crushing drudgery.

But, hey, at least I do not live in that backwater, flat, corrupt good ol boy loser state called Texas. Its nice to see the northern and mid-western states take back the country from the Texas mafia.

We have a President from Chicago; a V-P from Delaware (which is now a suburb of Philadelphia) and a Secretary of State from NY. Life is good!!!!!

Has anyone heard anything more about layoffs at Gardere?

I was in their Dallas offices some time ago and they seemed busy.

By the way, do they still have that gargoyle/dragon sculpture behind the receptionist desk and the green velour wallcovering?

If that firm is going to layoff anyone, it should start with the decorator of that reception area.

Let me put it this way for those of you who have not experienced that lobby- if Elvis and Liberace had been lawyers and opened up their own firm, I am pretty sure that the lobby of Gardere's offices would have appealed to them.

Lesbians rule at king & spalding ... if you want a job there, you better be a lesbian or be willing to try ...

$50,000 a year in Houston gets you the same standard of living as a $123,322 salary does in Manhattan (http://www.nycfuture.org/content/articles/article_view.cfm?article_id=1233&article_type=0). According to MATH, first year associate salaries in Houston gets you the same standard of living as a $394,630 salary does in Manhattan.

Even discounting living in "America's Asshole," money-hungry associates eyeing Houston are spot-on. Especially since living in "America's Asshole" is partially offset by the fact that lawyers in Manhattan are viewed as Manhattan's Assholes, whereas being a big-law associate in Houston still allows some self-esteem.

Oh, and if you're doing energy work, there's not even a debate.

I don't know. I'd pay to move out of Houston. You have to count the cost of suckage of living in Houston. The problem with Texas is that it's full of Texans.

Before you get up in arms, I'm originally from Texas and it can't compare to NYC. I'd happily make less to not live in Texas with Texans.

Lesbians rule at king & spalding ... if you want a job there, you better be a lesbian or be willing to try ...

i hear that the salad sisters are going to work for king & spalding - can anyone verify ?

The bi-sexuals rule at Sutherland. The do the partners and their wifes.

Only thing is, they are butt ugly.

the salad sisters are able to "process" vegetables to provide a beautiful and nutrient rich salad - complete with dressing

king and spalding could use them for the holiday party this year

Maybe they'll be part of the "lock in" that Sutherland and K&S are having for the summers as a special treat.

All of you are hilarious... Texas BigLaw is a joke. The only firms to be respected are V&E and BB, and some aren't even germaine to the legal world (i.e. Fulbright - that 2d chair firm with recruiting problems). Bracewell fucked itself when they got rid of Patterson for Guili-fucking-ani - not that they brought much to the table anyhow.

The best part about reading this is that it makes me even more happy I got out of BigLaw several years ago. Now I only take the cases I want, actually go to trial (and beat the shit out of BigLaw "litigation" partners), and make more each year than any 5 of you self-important gimps combined. Get over yourselves and realize that being stupid enough to wallow in the BigLaw grind isn't a noble pursuit - no matter what it does for your flimsy ego. If you jerkoffs didn't keep losing to me at trial, your clients might be willing to pay your ridiculous billing rates and your worthless existence *might* be justified to the partners who secretly hate you.

Texas firms are basically bullshit artists, They are extremely insecure and status-conscious, as is the buisness communtiy in the state as a whole. That may explain why some Dallas lawyers are just the nastious personalities you will find oustide some of the a-holes in NYC. Having practiced law in BigLaw firms inboth Houston and Dallas a decade ago, I can tell you how what venonous, ugly attitudes these lawyers have against their local competitors. Big talk, lots of bravado, but most Texas lawyers are all hat and no cattle, and are subservient little shits who have to kiss their clients backsides every goddammed day, or else that biznes is gonna cross the street to someother firm with equally shit faced smiles. Now I am in D,C. and we got a-holes here too, but at least they are subatantive a-holes and not just jealous little twits.