Still no word from Pillsbury?

Why does anyone go to law school anymore? Is law school truly the option of last resort for losers with nowhere else to turn?

Willkie to v15

proskauer info is incomplete. some incoming associates start in nov and jan.

Still nothing out of Boston from Goodwin Procter or WilmerHale.

No word on even the usual salary advances or anything.

Probably too busy in the Fenway luxury box to inform their incoming associates.

Does anyone have any recommendations for restaurants in Decatur, Ill.? I have depositions there next week.
--Dining in Decatur

GOODWIN???!?!!???????????

What about Arnold & Porter? Wilmer? Covington? There are a lot of big firms missing (and which haven't told 3Ls anything).

Wilmer is fine. Goodwin is on the verge of implosion.

Willkie - to infinity, and beyond!

@3- some people actually want to be lawyers.

Schulte deferred.

Locke Lord Houston, bitches!

10 has no idea what s/he's talking about.

How in the world are Foley's, McGuire Woods', Linklaters', and Paul Weiss' September start dates considered "deferred start dates?"

Geez you associates are so damn entitled. Just be happy that you have a freaking offer before graduation, even if it is deferred a couple of months. Once upon a time, people got their jobs AFTER they graduated and not during a second year internship.

NALP should have gotten together and all agreed to rescind ALL first-year associate offers and then hire people they actually need. If it wasn't for that damn Sherman Act...

15 - so you're saying it's even worse at Goodwin than 10 reported? Or that Wilmer is imploding too?

S&C just had a meeting about something.

still missing DPW and STB. people have said what they are. STB is Sept, Oct and Nov 2009. I forgot what DPW is.

Goodwin isn't imploding. They just realize the need to be cautious given the uncertainties of the economy and their recent expansion.

Goodwin Prediction: March 2010 Start Date with 10k advance and 10k stipend, as well as covering bar expenses and prep costs. Option to defer to Fall 2010 with 60k PI stipend.

16, the post just says these are start dates, not deferred start dates...a little attention to detail never hurt.

Goodwin's internal website still lists the incoming associates as starting in Fall 2009, but no definite date

13 is right, but there is a nice stipend.

Kash, this list is helpful, but it's clear you need a list-of-shame or something of firms/offices that still haven't told 3Ls anything

What does this mean for the 100+ 2009 Proskauer summer associates in the NYC office? When do we start? What is the possibility of September '10?

Paul Hastings just placed an order for 1000 monogrammed coat hangers.

16 - Just says expected start dates, not deferred...

16 -- wtf are you talking about? It is a list of start dates, not deferred dates.

16 is a genius.

re: the question about dining in Decatur, Illinois . . .

don't!

You can stay in a very nice hotel and have a choice of many good restaurants in Champaign. The drive to Decatur is about 45 minutes -- not a bad commute.

I escaped from Decatur at age 18. Went back after school -- escaped again! Don't spend any more time there than you have to.

Thank you, Schulte....For doing EXACTLY what all the other firms have done but taking the longest to do it. Also, the three days to decide what to do should be plenty of time.

Sheppard?

stroock = feb

re: the question about dining in Decatur, Illinois . . .

don't!

You can stay in a very nice hotel and have a choice of many good restaurants in Champaign. The drive to Decatur is about 45 minutes -- not a bad commute.

I escaped from Decatur at age 18. Went back after school -- escaped again! Don't spend any more time there than you have to.

Could angry biglaw staff members please stop commenting here? Your negativity is giving you all away.

26. It means half of ya'll wont get offers this summer!

This list is definitely cool and all. For the next post, one of you ATL guys wanna figure out what law firms are representing Pulte and Centex in a huge M&A deal? Always nice to hear good news. Thanks

23,

Last word on Goodwin was "No earlier than October 1, 2009" but I don't think there is anyone that expects to start before Jan. 1, 2010.

Nice flame, 34. Don't take the bait, people.

16 just wanted attention. And got it. Ha.

On the other hand, the 4 firms that 16 listed seem to be the few that have normal September dates. Amazing.

re: the question about dining in Decatur, Illinois . . .

don't!

You can stay in a very nice hotel and have a choice of many good restaurants in Champaign. The drive to Decatur is about 45 minutes -- not a bad commute.

I escaped from Decatur at age 18. Went back after school -- escaped again! Don't spend any more time there than you have to.

Kirkland hasn't announced start dates yet.

The ship be sinking...

This list is definitely cool and all. For the next post, one of you ATL guys wanna figure out what law firms are representing Pulte and Centex in a huge M&A deal? Always nice to hear good news. Thanks

26. It means half of ya'll wont get offers this summer!

Where's the Cahill information? They have been mum.

Should law schools defer their fall semester until Jan 2010?

Good work, informative & responsive. How about a survey of new hour/pay scales, and also an estimated 2009 OCI class size?

Good work, informative & responsive. How about a survey of new hour/pay scales, and also an estimated 2009 OCI class size?

16 = Mormon

*******************************************

Enough with all these posts about who announced what. The people that need to know this info, have gotten it by now.

Remember when ATL had the List of Shame for firms that hadn't yet announced raises?

ATL really NEEDS to do a post of all firms with 1k+ lawyers (or 75+ incoming associates or Vault 100 or whatever) and then list those that haven't announced.

All it takes is to take the list of the Vault 100, cross out the firms that have announced, and then put a phone call/email into the rest telling them you're doing this post on Friday.

Come Friday, you list all the firms that haven't conveyed start dates as well as any info/denials/delays/whatever from the contact with these firms.

Give me an @abovethelaw.com e-mail address and I'll do this myself.

***********************************

NO STIPEND OR ADVANCE from Locke Lord despite the deferral? The deferred associates should sue for reliance damages on a promissory estoppel theory -- they relied -- reasonably -- on the promise of a job, and incurred expenses and foregone opportunities as a direct result of that reliance. Seems open and shut to me. Probably couldn't be certified as a class, but they could file the complaint pro se while they're sitting home with no funds.

NO STIPEND OR ADVANCE from Locke Lord despite the deferral? The deferred associates should sue for reliance damages on a promissory estoppel theory -- they relied -- reasonably -- on the promise of a job, and incurred expenses and foregone opportunities as a direct result of that reliance. Seems open and shut to me. Probably couldn't be certified as a class, but they could file the complaint pro se while they're sitting home with no funds.

NO STIPEND OR ADVANCE from Locke Lord despite the deferral? The deferred associates should sue for reliance damages on a promissory estoppel theory -- they relied -- reasonably -- on the promise of a job, and incurred expenses and foregone opportunities as a direct result of that reliance. Seems open and shut to me. Probably couldn't be certified as a class, but they could file the complaint pro se while they're sitting home with no funds.

I am intelligent. Any suggestions on where I should go to law school?

NO STIPEND OR ADVANCE from Locke Lord despite the deferral? The deferred associates should sue for reliance damages on a promissory estoppel theory -- they relied -- reasonably -- on the promise of a job, and incurred expenses and foregone opportunities as a direct result of that reliance. Seems open and shut to me. Probably couldn't be certified as a class, but they could file the complaint pro se while they're sitting home with no funds.

Sullivan is Deferring. Friend got a call last night from the NY office.

31 and 35: Thanks! How about restaurants in Champaign then?
--Dining in Decatur (or maybe Choosing Champaign)

A&B giving a 10K stipend and King & Spalding is giving nothing? K&S usually moves after A&B and is very cheap, but K&S rarely fails to match A&B. Opening all of those new offices at exactly the wrong time must have hurt more than they let on.

55 - thanks for trying, but everyone has seen that shtick.

56 - MIT

Schulte summer to 8 weeks.

52,

Amen.

BRING BACK THE LIST OF SHAME

Sutherland is representing AIG

So...

For V10, the only mandatory deferral to 2010 is Weil, with voluntary deferrals “offered” by Skadden, Simpson and Latham, and Kirkland yet to announce. For V11-20, some mandatory deferrals to 2010 for White & Case, with voluntary deferrals “offered” by Shearman, and WillConn, GDC, Wilmer, and A&P yet to announce.

Assuming these dates are honored (and that’s a big assumption), the landscape doesn’t look that bad for the class of 2009, and least at the top.

Shearman offered the choice of deferral to Jan 2011 or having a fat transvestite hooker kick you in the balls every morning in the lobby of their NY office.

Only a few firms below Goodwin in the V100 have offered any stipend, so Goodwin would be breaking out of the pack if they were to offer anything. Probably a good move if they want to continue their rise through the V100 ranks.

7 - Yes. Mi Pueblito is a fantastic Mexican joint that puts Mexican joins here in Chicago to shame. If you're not just being a tool, I suggest you check it out when you're there.

Miraculously, Gibson Dunn once again fails to make the list. Now I'm certain Elie was rejected by them during OCI.

For what must be the 12th time, GDC start dates are 11/16/09 and 11/30/09. The firm also is giving an interest-free loan of up to a month's salary in addition to the standard $13,333 stipend.

7 is being a tool. He's on every thread asking for dining recommendations in some flyover city. If you're going to have a schtick, at least get yourself an avatar.

Is anyone else growing tired of the "I need to plan my life" crap. You'll get your freakin start date when AND IF the firm decides when it would be best served to bring you on. If you don't like it, go find another job.

more details about schulte please.

Proskauer info is not correct. The incoming class is split into November, January, and March -- not only March as the post states.

67,

If firms below them have offered a stipend, then wouldn't Goodwin have to do so if they want to move up the ranks and not be considered "TTT"?

Sure, not giving 10k free would be saving a million bucks, but it would also make them look like a low rate regional firm.

If they want to compete with the Wilmer's and Ropes' in Boston (and now across the country and the world) they're going to have to play with the big boys.

They've already frozen salary and slashed summer class size for '09, enough with the cost cutting measures. Gonna have to sack up.

Though, I suppose if Goodwin offers a shitty deal for Jan. 2010 with option for deferment matching other firms, it would make people more likely to defer til Fall/Winter 2010, which I assume they want.

I kind of wish I would have chosen a weaker firm that was stupid enough to pay me not to work, instead of a firm were all incoming associates are starting in September. It would be awesome to get a stipend for getting pushed back and extra free time to travel. After all, most people will work for the next 20-40 years after starting as an attorney. I am in no rush to start.

61 -- I do not understand your "schtick" comment. You're obviously not in litigation. This is what lawyers do -- they sue. Sometimes the claims are a little creakier than others, but this contract claims is hardly creakier than a lot of claims that advance past MSJ. If you don't think those deferred associates could get some money out of Locke Lorde, you're obviously a bitter 1L.

IT IS NOT SCHTICK TO DEFEND CONTRACTUAL EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS, so go back to whatever TTT cesspool you crawled out of.

What is an avatar?

I kind of wish I would have chosen a weaker firm that was stupid enough to pay me not to work, instead of a firm were all incoming associates are starting in September. It would be awesome to get a stipend for getting pushed back and extra free time to travel. After all, most people will work for the next 20-40 years after starting as an attorney. I am in no rush to start.

A friend told me that Sidley is continuing their gravy-train pre-clerk program this summer (allowing graduates with clerkships lined up to return for a second summer at full salary and half workload while studying for the bar). Any truth to this rumor? Other firms still offering this perk to pre-clerks?

58: false information. I did not get any such call last night.

I kind of wish I would have chosen a weaker firm that was stupid enough to pay me not to work, instead of a firm were all incoming associates are starting in September. It would be awesome to get a stipend for getting pushed back and extra free time to travel. After all, most people will work for the next 20-40 years after starting as an attorney. I am in no rush to start.

Your wife loves my humongous shtick.

Lord Humongous

74 - Goodwin is a TTT and can't compete with the "Wilmer's (sic) and Ropes' (sic)" in Boston.

Agreed, 60. K&S is looking pretty bush league compared to other law firms. And not only other national-caliber law firms, but now other ATLANTA firms. It's unbelievable that they took away the option of a salary advance, and then, to rub salt in their wounds, cut incoming associates a deferral check for a big fat zero. How the mighty have fallen.

If Goodwin doesn't step up to the plate here, it will be the end of the "Big 3" in Boston. It will then be Ropes and Wilmer on top, and Goodwin would fall down to the second tier with firms like Foley Hoag and Mintz Levin.

It's already starting to be the default for 2Ls to choose Ropes in Boston when offered, and Goodwin will forever lose the competition for qualified Boston attorneys if they cheap out here.

How bright does the future of the firm look if they are destined to scrounge from the recruiting scraps that Ropes leaves behind?

I hate Somalians.

Is there a reason you guys aren't updating Simpson?

On every post so far, I've said that the start dates are:

September 20something 2009

October 20something 2009

November 20something 2009

32 - its not exactly the same. Biggest stipend for a january deferral on the list, but disappointing nonetheless. Also a limited public interest option...

I don't know what is worse. Being deffered until January 2010, or starting now and then being at risk of being fired before the year is over. I suspect many firms will be firing first years within months of starting at the firm... that is scary stuff.

-3L starting at V20 in Nov. 2009.

I don't know what is worse. Being deffered until January 2010, or starting now and then being at risk of being fired before the year is over. I suspect many firms will be firing first years within months of starting at the firm... that is scary stuff.

-3L starting at V20 in Nov. 2009.

76 -- While I appreciate your defending my comment, I didn't say they would have a contract claim, which obviously the wouldn't because of at-will employment. I was talking about promissory estoppel. Reliance damages, not expectation damages. I don't know that you should be lecturing about TTTs if you can't figure out that one of these theories is likely meritorious, while the other is borderline frivolous.

-53 (and no, I didn't post that comment more than once)

76 -- While I appreciate your defending my comment, I didn't say they would have a contract claim, which obviously the wouldn't because of at-will employment. I was talking about promissory estoppel. Reliance damages, not expectation damages. I don't know that you should be lecturing about TTTs if you can't figure out that one of these theories is likely meritorious, while the other is borderline frivolous.

-53 (and no, I didn't post that comment more than once)

65 - Don't be fooled by Latham's start date at the end of 2009, at least compared to Weil's. Weil is offering a 15k deferral stipend while Latham has no deferral stipend.

How about Dechert starting Oct. 5th--no push back, yet--I believe in you Bart!

QUINN REMAINS off this motherfucker

61 - You obviously are not a very good lawyer (or even a very smart person) if you think promissory estoppel is going to get you anywhere as grounds of action when the position in quesiton is at-will employment.

Didn't you learn this in first year contracts for christsakes?

76 - the point is you are about the 1000th person to post this AMAZING promissory estoppel idea.

- not 61

76: I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re: List of Shame.

At this point, more than 2/3 of firms have reported, so the "market" has been set for start dates. Waiting now shows more weakness than caution.

Just from ATL, Law Firm Chaos, and Autoadmit, looks like the unreleased firms (or unconfirmed, in some cases) are, in Vault 50 order:

DPW
Kirkland
WillConn
GDC
Wilmer
A&P
Jones Day
Freshfields
Winston
Quinn
Allen & Overy
DLA
Baker & McKenzie
Wilson Sonsini
Boies

STB Sept 21, Oct 26, Nov 30

96 - I believe you are addressing your comments to 55, whom I believe to be an idiot or yet another flamer trying to bait people into the reliance vs. at-will employment debate.

97 - Thanks for getting it.

-61

74/85 - Considering Goodwin's position in Boston, I agree they have to do something to differentiate them from the firms that surround them in the V100. They may be one of the few firms that could actually suffer from just meeting the standard. They might have to set the market for the 40-60 range to even stay in the range and go higher if they want to move up. This is especially true since Ropes and Wilmer Boston did not freeze salaries or engage in any attorney layoffs yet.

S&C is closing its doors; apparently it is a ponzi scheme and Rodgy Cohen has actually been dead for 10 years. They just parade him around like Weekend at Bernies.

Is K&S still paying their sign-on bonus? Or is that gone too?

76 - Who ever said there was a contract?

What about the rest of the Foley offices? September 7th? If so, Foley deserves some credit.

Btw, Mintz Levin pushed back to Jan 2010.

56: The word you used to describe yourself, "intelligent," is at war with your future plans--going to law school. Simply put, one cannot be both "intelligent" and planning to attend law school, certainly not in today's market. Thus, you should either attend MIT, as 61 suggests, or, in the alternative, reassess your elevated perception of your cognitive prowess/potential.

101 -- need those first two categories (idiot/flamer) be mutually exclusive? I think not.

-97

@92,

Promissory Estoppel is an interesting theory, but I don't think you've got all of the required elements.

In particular, I think you may be missing both _reasonable_ reliance and mutual consideration.

But carry on...

105 - don't do it. Don't argue with him. The blog trolls do this on every layoff/deferral thread - they try and bait people into arguing whether there is reliance in at-will employment. Don't take the bait.

FYI: All of the summers for Baker Botts that are starting this year (as opposed to clerking) got the January e-mail.

paul weiss and cleary...simply amazing

Is there any word on the start dates for incoming clerks? Are they treated differently or just as part of the incoming class?

WHAT IS SCHULTE'S PLAN?

79- not true. They have to work full time this summer or not at all

105 = flame

110 = racist

What about the rest of the Foley & Lardner offices? September 7th? If so, Foley deserves some credit.

Btw, Mintz Levin pushed back to Jan 2010.

110 = racist

110 = racist

110 = racist

110 = racist

WHAT IS SCHULTE'S PLAN?

Since Thompson Hine cut associate pay by 1/6th AND their rounds of layoffs (stealth and announced), morale has been in the toilet and everyone seems worried about what comes next.

Although unsubstantiated, rumors are that SA's and incoming first years are getting hit next and hard.

schulte summer here... so weird how they announced cutting the program the month before it starts! a three week cut is huge, one or two weeks would have been understandable...

117/119 - I didn't realize useless trolls were a race.

-110

V&E:

November 2
January 4

If November, 10k sal advance
If January, 10k stipend

January strongly recommended

If enough people don't volunteer to defer at Shearman, at what point will they begin to "volunteer" for you?

Schulte deferred to Jan 28, $20 K total stipend (1/2 on May 1, 1/2 of Sept 1 and includes all bar-related expenses) so basically $16K. Firm is offering to find pro bono placement for the year with 70K stipend-not much time to decide. Pretty standard stuff.

127: When did that come out? I thought that V&E had set specific dates in September.

What about foreign 3Ls? Will they be eligible for the stipends if they stay at home or does that breach immigration law?

102- Ropes has stealthily fired about 30-40 associates so far

The Dow is down and pirates are on the attack. Time to get drunk on a Wednesday.

Greenberg Traurig isn't offering any stipend and took away the signing bonus.

I opted for the Shearman transvestite ball kicking rather than wait for 2011.

What about the Law Offices of John Porter?

Baker & McKenzie -- January 2010 (announced yesterday); summer program will be reduced to 8 weeks.

Somalians just hijacked SulCrom.

No Jacoby & Meyers? No Jim Sokolove? No Binder & Binder? What sort of a law blog is this?

130: we were all called last night. nothing was written.

Some of the consulting firms are now deferring as well. MBAs are the new JDs.

This is great. This is why i come 2 ATL still. Thanks, Kash.

Has anyone heard anything about the illustrious firm of Bong, Pipes, and Weed?

DPW has announced. I forget the exact date, but it's within a week of what it's always been.

I go to UVA. Suck it, Texas.

Bob Loblaw's law blog is so much better than this one.

Texas bar results have been released. They are huge.

Like Shearman, Ropes is not paying any stipend to those deferred until January 2010

Nothing yet from Kirkland & Ellis?

Got a call from hiring mentor, my GP start date is Jan 25th. Not great. $15k advance, no stipend. Worse. I quickly called a fellow GP 3L who also received a call that her start date is March 29th. Worst.

What is happening? How are they deciding this?

I feel sick.

Somalians just assured my lobster.

what does TTT mean?

So if Goodwin only laid off 38 attorneys, why bother announcing it? Why didn't they follow the Ropes stealth layoff approach since they and a few other firms seem to be getting away with about 40 layoffs without any formal announcement. Maybe they laid off 40+ in stealth mode in addition to the 38 they announced?

127 - what does "strongly recommended" mean? You can start Nov.ember 4th, but there will be fucking hell to pay if you do (i.e., next round of layoffs)! Why not just make Jan mandatory?

omg 150 - when did you get this call - I'm incoming 3L at GP too, but haven't checked my phone. Are you heading into litigation or corporate????

150 - see, I said the firm was imploding.

-10

Any news on Goldfarber, Feinstein, Rosenblumfeld, Stein-Goldtsein and Oy Vey?

130 - V&E did set specific dates for September; but that letter was sent in late December/early January. Wishful thinkers.

So if Goodwin only laid off 38 attorneys, why bother announcing it? Why didn't they follow the Ropes stealth layoff approach since they and a few other firms seem to be getting away with about 40 layoffs without any formal announcement. Maybe they laid off 40+ in stealth mode in addition to the 38 they announced?

Big meeting at DPW today. Room reservation reads "all-partners seance to commune with the racist spirit of John W Davis."

Is any other Proskauer summer concerned that we will be their biggest summer class ever (by a very wide margin - more than twice their 2007 summer class), and they currently are in the process of firing first years and deferring 3Ls?

Hello? 150! please give details on which dept you're heading into.

RE: List of Shame

Jones Day has conveyed start dates to new lawyers.

Oct 26 - the notification was sent a couple of weeks ago.

Corporate. My friend is in Litigation.

Does anyone know if there is a 2009 group?

-150

Proskauer has split start dates and will monitor results of the bar exam. The firm seems to be hurting more than most, so this might not be the final word.

Steptoe has also not announced start dates yet

Steptoe has also not announced start dates yet

150 is messing with you. No GP info has been decided or announced yet. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax.

Choate: Jan 11, 2010 + 15K advance.

That sounds totally nuts that litigation would be 2 months after corporate. I talked to a 3rd year in litigation 3 days ago who told me it's totally busy.

No group that I know of.

Give me back that fillet-o-fish!
Give me that fish!
Give me back that fillet-o-fish!
Give me that fish!

124 - I'm also hearing whispers that the other shoe is ready to drop at Thompson Hine. We have an office in Dayton, Ohio that has been going through very prolonged lease re-negotiations with a landlord whose building is pretty much entirely empty.

So, let me ask you, what do you think the odds are that TH was able to negotiate an option to terminate that lease and close down the lucrative (har har) Dayton office? Bye bye most associates there, and underperforming partners (which is most of them). Hello cost savings.

Haven't heard reliable reports or seen any memos on this, but it is one of the main fears/suspicions in the firm.

Yeah, 150 is just trying to exploit all the GP anxiety. Why would a firm make random phone calls and leave everyone else hanging. Awesome move if you really want to establish credibility.

150,

"Got a call from hiring mentor, my GP start date is Jan 25th. Not great. $15k advance, no stipend. Worse. I quickly called a fellow GP 3L who also received a call that her start date is March 29th. Worst."

DETAILS PLEASE

150, if you are lying you are a total piece of shit.

150,

Why would litigation start after corporate?

Very nice touch of details in trying to sell the lie, though.

All the GP folks need to calm down. You'll hear from the firm when they make their decision. Your anxiety doesn't help things or make the firm move faster. It may be inconvenient to wait, but you really can't do anything about it.

Perfect time for a "What's Good at Goodwin Procter?" post

177,

"All these GP folks"

It's like 1-2 people talking and pretending to sound like a group. Most of us know these multi-million dollar decisions take time and I have to sublet my apartment for a month as a result, so be it.

Confirmed at GP.

Does not look good.

Gotta give it to 150 for at least checking to see if the 25th and 29th were Mondays.

Fat chance. More likely 177 = 179 = some lowly HR hack trying to do damage control.

I know of at least 15 (of the incoming 80 or so heading to GP Boston) who have heard jack-shit, so 150/180, we know you're full of shit.

Fat chance. More likely 177 = 179 = some lowly HR hack trying to do damage control.

schulte = 20k stipend, defer to jan 28. pro bono opp for $70k. fairly standard, but better than what seems to be "market"

Somalians are very rude. They didn't even offer me the option of a deferral.

Gotta give it to 150 for at least checking to see if the 25th and 29th were Mondays.

Goodwin Boston has 80 incoming first years? What is that penniless firm going to pay them with, lobstahs?

150: PLEASE PROVIDE DETAILS ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I summered at Shearman and have nothing to show for it except a virulent strain of Texas Monkey AIDS.

172 - Hahaha! Thompson Hine is a TTT firm! The chances of you finding someone else here that gives a crap is remote at best.

This place needs a bouncer... just because your firm's partners are assholes and you work 14 hours a day doesn't make every chump from a dying midwest firm part of BigLaw.

Pretty impressive that Foley & Lardner has September start date. I don't remember seeing anything about layoffs at Foley on ATL either. Maybe Foley should have been in the Safest Firms bracket...

Any word on WilmerHale or K & L Gates? There's been radio silence on WH on all layoff/start date fronts since our descent into ruin began. What's up with them?

Where the hell are you guys getting September '10 for the Shearman deferral start? Isn't it a bit optimistic to assume that next year's class will be starting in September; especially after the Weil article yesterday. You really think Weil will start in January '11 while Shearman starts in September '10?

Does anyone know which Baker & Hostetler office has pushed back start dates? The October 15th start date either does not apply to all offices or it does apply to all offices and not all of the incoming associates have been informed...

I just got a call from somebody.

Does anyone know which Baker & Hostetler office has pushed back start dates? The October 15th start date either does not apply to all offices or it does apply to all offices and not all of the incoming associates have been informed...

Here's a preliminary Vault 100 list of shame ... update it people!

Allen & Overy LLP
Arnold & Porter LLP
Baker & McKenzie
Baker Botts LLP
Bingham McCutchen LLP
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Bryan Cave LLP
Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP
Cooley Godward LLP
Covington & Burling LLP
Crowell & Moring LLP
Davis Polk & Wardwell
Dickstein Shapiro LLP
DLA Piper
Fenwick & West LLP
Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett & Dunner, L.L.P
Fish & Richardson P.C.
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
Goodwin Procter LLP
Heller Ehrman LLP
Howrey LLP
Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP
Jones Day
K&L Gates LLP
Kaye Scholer LLP
Kilpatrick Stockton LLP
Kirkland & Ellis LLP
Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel LLP
Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP
Lovells
Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo PC
Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP
Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe
Patton Boggs LLP
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver & Hedges LLP
Reed Smith LLP
Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP
Seyfarth Shaw
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP
Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
Steptoe & Johnson LLP
Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP
Thacher Proffitt & Wood LLP
Thelen Reid Brown Raysman & Steiner LLP
Vinson & Elkins LLP
Williams & Connolly LLP
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
Winston & Strawn LLP

I can't stand all these Goodwin rumors. I'm going to email my summer mentor and find out what's going on.

Okay seriously, put Orrick on the list. ATL itself broke the news about their Jan/March 2010 dates and can't seem to remember it.

i'm a racist

does that make me a racist?

Man, we all feel so bad for- Sincerely, all other lawyers not in big law paying off debt on $60K a year.

198 - Schulte announced all of this stuff already. See above posts.

198 - you're missing LW

197 - You and 172 should go hang out with each other. Except Baker and Hostetler is even more of a joke than Thompson Hine.

Just another overpriced firm doing cookie-cutter deals and small-ball litigation.

WilmerHale delaying all litigation to March 1, 2010 with 5k advance. Corporate delayed until September 2010, with 50k freebie.

....See how easy it is to start an ATL rumor?

Now just have to reply in 5 minutes as if I'm independently confirming.

Don't forget Locke Lord Houston and Locke Lord Austin.

Confirmed 206. Just got the phone call. This sucks.

206 - I can confirm that. Just got a call!

140 is lying about V&E, start dates in September.

Am I gay if I like to be pounded in the ass by the Green Mountain Boys?

Akin also has a September start date for 6 associates.

137--any word on a stipend for those deferred at Baker & McKenzie?

Confirmed. 211 is gay.

Schiff "we don't do layoffs" Hardin Chicago just pushed the 1L start date back to January 2010. And laid off a few more associates.

Nice tipster for Winston & Strawn - if I haven't heard bad news yet, it means everything is good and they're even throwing in a puppy!!

165: Where the hell are you getting that information from?

Goodwin Procter just sent me a carrier pigeon with a message.

I'm dead serious about this.

Seriously.

140 is not lying, unfortunately. Got my total student loan tally the same day as my deferral = punch in the gut followed by a kick in the baby maker. But at least we have jobs (in theory).

I plan on putting my 10k stipend toward my first 3500 sq. ft. wife. She comes with a Lexis.

7 - There's an Arby's out on the business loop. Don't miss the jamocha shake.

Glad to help out someone putting ATL to its only remaining useful purpose.

Elie

130, 127 is lying about V&E. Start dates still in September.

205 - if the Madoff liquidation is your idea of "small-ball litigation," I'd like to see what your firm is doing. Idiot law student.

My GP mentor has just begun sending me a message by smoke signal. Oh boy, this may take a while....

221 is a liar.

216 -

How are they preparing the puppy? I prefer deep-frying - that's the way they do it at the Decatur Arby's.

Elie

161--Be very concerned, but also realistic. If there's nothing else out there, you just have to go with the flow. Proskauer is a firm that could be deconstructing over the next couple of years but I do believe it will honor the start dates for 3Ls and 2009 summer offers. However, I would not assume the summer experience will result in a permanent offer. Use it to help explore other possibilities, which the firm probably would love.

221 = V&E HR (or bored transactional associate).

224: Liar.

219 - why does your wife come with an internet research service provider? My 3500 sq. ft. TX wife came with a Lexus (and no gag reflex), which I think is much nicer.

Silence from Kirkland is deafening

Your post about Locke Lord is not true. They are offering their associates the same bar stipend as they have in past years ($15,000 NOT $1500), but it will not be available until later in the year.

225

The puppy will be wrapped in sunshine, lollipops and rainbows, just like the email I'm going to get telling me that my start date is early! Thanks elie!

-216

230 - Please repeat, I can't hear you.

Locke Lord offered me a job and I told them to go fuck themselves for being so pathetically mismanaged.

UVA3L

Akin Gump info is incomplete. I was told start dates were determined by practice group, and ranged from Sept '09 to possibly even Sept '10 -- my impression was Sept '09, Jan '10, Mar '10, and Sept '10 were the dates.

I can confirm that at least some associates are starting in Sept '09.

S&C to Nov. 2nd.

236 - Wrong. S&C is Jan 5.

KIRKLAND LOS ANGELES HAS ANNOUNCED. A LONG TIME AGO. NOV 2.

217:: November, January, March. The check of bar exam results is a (reasoned) assumption since the firm goofed last year and was a bit embarrassed when several first years who flunked the bar survived the first round of layoffs while those who passed were being laid off. I also believe any 3L who has a deferred start date and flunks the bar in the interim is at risk of having his/her offer pulled, i.e., that taking and passing the bar may be an implicit requirement for deferees.

Puppy's notwithstanding, would it be fair to say that since the Winston & Strawn offer letter said september specifically that they would be inclined to give a stipend for any delays beyond that date? That would be the "proper" thing to do.

GULC is laying off 4L's. Its a bloodbath.

GP Twitter page just updated with this message... "in the process of calling incoming associates to inform them that offers are being rescinded"

226,

What makes you think that Proskauer will be deconstructing over the next couple of years or why you think it's "hurting more than most"?

Except for a small few- I'd say Debevoise, Cleary, maybe Paul Weiss- everyone is going to get somewhat pushed back from where they originally were.

Not because every firm is dying, but because if a firm doesnt NEED new blood now- and no one does, there is zero attrition- why not save some money without looking like total assholes?

If your firm told you September before all these deferrals started, and you havent heard anything since confirming that promise, I would not expect to start before Nov/Dec 2009.

222 - I'll tell you what, why don't you go ahead and run down the list of major partners that took their book of business and bolted for the door from Baker and Hostetler over the last 2 years. Plus they had that major power struggle over who would be Managing Partner.

Baker is contracting fast fast fast. But you enjoy fighting with the other associates for a nice big piece of that Madoff document review. The rest of us will be practicing real law while you do grunt work that real firms use paralegals for.

Good luck with that.

Anyone making crap up to mess with people is a real dick. People are really stressed about this.

That said, anyone believing crap that's posted anonomously and without sources on a blog has to be a moron. If you're not hearing it from your firm or from a place like ATL that actually has sources, it means NOTHING.

i wish all you 3Ls who are being pushed back & given money not to work would STFU. i'm clerking, so you're making more money than me NOT to work. waa, waa.

245,

Where can I find a definition of a "major partner" and a list that would aid in determining which of those partners that left over the two years fall within that category?

Seriously.... CHECK FACTS... EMAIL FIRM REPS.. THE INFO ON THIS LIST IS EITHER INCOMPLETE, MISLEADING, or JUST WRONG.

Like WTF....Someone fire Kashmir because shes a fucking idiot. Not like Elie is better.... but seriously do some follow up.

Wachtell, Skadden, Debevoise and Willkie are incomplete and incorrect. Where is the proof. my friends who are working at WLRK, DP, and WFG have heard NOTHING other than choosing proposed start dates. Skadden has November start dates too...
Some of the above are confirmed dates (e.g. Cravath) and some are just the options given (but the firms have said nothing yet about when to start-- ala Davis Polk)

248 - That is a very hard question. Generally a "major partner" would commonly be understood to be a rainmaker with a big book of business.

However, Baker and Hostetler has always been a run of the mill Ohio firm with delusions of grandeur. Sorry if that offends you, I'm not saying they aren't a fine mid-market firm, but when they portray themselves as BigLaw the comparisons aren't favorable to the firm.

So, considering that we're talking about Baker rather than a top of market firm, I guess I would have to define a Baker "major partner" as someone with one of the larger books of business FOR THAT FIRM, even if that book of business would be unimpressive to any AmLaw 100 firm. Being a "major partner" at Baker is sort of like being a "valedictorian of summer school"... it's all about perspective.

Does that clear things up for you? If not, ask anyone that's actually been at Baker for the past 2 years, they'll give you the (rather lengthy) list of partners that bolted for the door.

250,

How does one "portray themselves as BigLaw" and, because you made the initial comment regarding the subject, could you give the "rather lengthy" list of partners that "bolted" for the door?

alot of the dates on that list are firms' requests for selection of dates- when every single willkie associate choose september, what happens then?

please.

yo seriously....this is complete shit....your posts are complete fucking garbage....wrong information up the ass.

251 - mediocre attorneys unrealistically portray their firm as BigLaw when it is a mediocre midwest firm with crappy profits-per-partner and overall revenues that place it well outside the top tier, yet they come here and pretend to be a heavy hitter.

I respectfully decline your request to give specific names attributing motives to particular individuals, when I am not a mind reader. If it makes you feel better and quit crying, allow me to amend my statement - "Baker and Hostetler has lost many of its partners with the larger books of business in the firm over the last two years. Given the sheer number of departing partners, the water-cooler chatter going through the firm during their departures, and some statements made by some of the departing partners, it appears that many of the partners left because of concerns over the health of the firm."

There? Feel better? It is my OPINION based on what I heard and observed that many of those that left departed for that reason. But, the cold, inescapable FACT is that many of the more profitable partners left over the last two years. They left in large numbers and in rapid succession of each other.

When your best partners leave and your only retort is to try and explain away why they left... oh, nevermind. You'll fit right in at Baker and should have a long career with them. It doesn't matter why all the best partners keep leaving, only that no one says they "bolted" by doing it. Hilarious.

198

Simpson Thacher doesn't deserve to be on the list. ATL is just not acknowledging the commentors who repeatedly have said the September, October, and November start dates.

K&S is going down for the count because the Recruiting Manager is too busy fucking the Managing Partner in NY!!!!

Confirmed that V&E is pushing back start dates (option of Nov. or Dec.). Also, they've apparently been calling some SAs with late-summer splits and telling them that the firm now has a hard cut-off date of July 17th. Late-summer SA's who can't get their early-summer firm to reduce weeks have effectively had their V&E summer offers rescinded.

250,

Have you noticed how many layoffs/salary freezes there have been in BigLaw lately? How is that "top of market"? Because you're probably a prestige whore law student, you're probably not aware that Baker hasn't done anything like that. Looks like Baker is the new top of market, sucka. Good luck on your first day of work at your firm 2 years from now, if you even have a job at all.

257-

Make that Nov. or JAN.

Otherwise, I heard the same.

S&C to November 2nd, making calls now, after telling everyone October 5th just a couple months ago.

Cleary is a great firm.

258 - Wow. Clever response. Calling me a law student. That definitely changes the fact that Baker and Hostetler has lost many partners over the last two years in rapid succession of each other.

Incidentally, this exchange tags you as an inept attorney. You're utterly ignoring the relevant fact - that you've tied yourself to a sinking ship of a firm that is hemmorhaging partners. Instead, you are attacking the messenger.

No matter how many names you call me, is that going to change the FACT that Baker and Hostetler has been losing partners in rapid succession of each other?

Get angry at me all you want instead of making a realistic assessment of your career opportunities with that firm. Just don't pretend nobody warned you.

254,

I do not work at Baker, and have little interest in going there.

Your amended statement is much more agreeable to me, although I would take issue with your opinion regarding the materiality of the partner's reason for leaving. For instance, starting their own practice would have substantially different implications than leaving because of the partner's perception of the firm's future (e.g. it will never become big business).

Other reasons may include retiring or leaving for greener pastures (as opposed to structural deficiencies in the firm itself).

These reasons matter because they allow for the possibility that the core management of the firm is still strong and still retains appeal to other "major partners" who may choose to move in--even assuming that this hasn't happened over the past two years.

How does one "pretend to be a heavy hitter"?

Skadden.

My firm just told me they were deferring my start date. They didn't tell me how long they were deferring it though. Is that a bad sign?

260 - got proof?

262-263 - sounds like you're bitter that Baker rejected you. Sucks that you don't have a job, man, but if Baker rejected you, how do you expect to be hired anywhere else? Probably best to start looking for a career outside of law. Good luck with that.

263 - Thanks for a well reasoned response on the merits.

I do concede that partner reasons for leaving are material on an individual basis, but let me suggest that when you have large numbers of partners leaving in rapid succession the overall trend of many partners leaving says a lot about the health of the firm regardless of each individual's reasons.

How does one pretend to be a heavy hitter? Well, it's all a matter of opinion, but if someone works for Baker and goes around pretending their firm is as influential, profitable, prestigious, etc. as someplace like DLA Piper or Skadden, well that person is not making a realistic assessment of their firm.

Those are my major points, aside from all the flame fighting with whoever the soon-to-be Baker associate is - (i) when many partners leave, that tells you something important about the health of the firm regardless of the PR spin put on each individual departure. The overall trend is what is critical. (ii) Baker and Hostetler is accurately characterized as a mid-sized midwest firm with profits-per-partner and overall revenues that place it well outside the top tier of law firms.

That's my point. (additional well reasoned dialogue is welcomed - I think I'll just ignore the "ostrich head in the sand" guy from here on out)

Meant 262 only.

-267

LaTTTham and WaTTTkins

Vince Schlomi just bit me in the ass.

Spoke to source at Wilmer in NY. Starts firmwide are in October (a few) and January 2010.

262 and 263 are not the same person.

-263

P.S. I have no problem with Baker, seems like a nice enough place based upon my experiences with the firm.

269 - last response I'm making to you: I'm not a Baker reject. But the main point you seem unable to grasp is that it does NOT MATTER whether I am bitter, angry, a law student, a partner, or anything else.

No matter how often you attack me or how effectively, that has ZERO impact on the FACT that Baker has lost numerous partners in rapid succession of each other recently. Anyone who went to an actual accredited law school knows that what you are engaging in are ad hominem attacks against someone making reasoned arguments that you don't like.

Me - Baker and Hostetler is losing partners in rapid succession. This is evidence that the firm is not healthy.

You - that guy is a jerk! And a law student!

Do you really think your tactic makes you the winner of an argument? Really?

Sorry, 268, but partners leave all the time in large groups. Doesn't always mean anything about the health of the firm. More likely is the partners left because Baker wasn't paying them enough (subjectively). Far cry from your suggestion that the firm is in trouble. While PPP is lower than that of many V100 firms, that doesn't change the fact that PPP for Baker increased in 2008 while on average it decreased for the V100 last year. Doesn't sound like that unhealthy of a firm to me.

You can dismiss facts like these by claiming that the arguments aren't well reasoned, but that just makes it even more clear that you don't know what you are talking about.

My early start date at Cravath cost me two dragons.

Orrick, MOFO? Where are they on the list.

And God- Morgan Lewis belongs on that list... incoming first years AND next year's summers are delayed a year. That's just crazy.

No one is denying that S&C is being deferred? Interesting. Might be true.

Oh, and your comment above: "But you enjoy fighting with the other associates for a nice big piece of that Madoff document review. The rest of us will be practicing real law while you do grunt work that real firms use paralegals for" makes it even more clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Have a nice afternoon making binders or outlining torts or whatever it is that you do.

-275

This flame war is BORING!

268 - you started making your point by being a dick - that Baker is a shitty backwater firm or whatever. Maybe if you'd stated your point without the pejorative, you wouldn't have gotten a (somewhat cry-babyish) backlash from the prospective Baker guy(s).

275 - this is the first time you've made those arguments. How did someone dismiss arguments you hadn't made yet? Plus, I'm sad to say it, but firms without departing partners don't have enough work for their associates. Add in partners leaving (and thereby taking work with them), and Baker does sound like it's in trouble. Yes, partners do leave all the time in large groups... but it would be unwise to draw conclusions on that based on what partners do "all the time" in typical economic circumstances in the current financial melt down.

There? Can we finally agree that 268 is a dick and 275 is a cry baby and MOVE THE FUCK ON to an interesting topic?

268,

I agree with your analysis, so no more questions from me. I should clarify, however, that any firm is merely one trend away from dissolution: a big partner leaves, another follows, followed by another, and so forth.

While stepping into a firm with a recent trend of departing partners might not be ideal--especially if new partners, major or minor, aren't moving in--it doesn't mean the firm is going to die, or even that it's a bad firm.

Nice chatting with you 268.

-263

This is boring... I'm going to do some cite checking.

280-281 - good points all around. I work at Baker, and haven't heard a thing about major partners leaving recently, so my sense is 268's information isn't recent at all, assuming it's even true.

Assuming this info is true and I'm in the dark about it (which is unlikely) I agree with 280 that massive partner departures do signal a problem for any firm, especially in these economic times. 281, thanks for your input as well.

S&C has been deferred. I'm not at troll. I know 6 other incoming associates who got the call today.

I blew myself during an interview. Was this foolhardy?

263,

That's a good point you make. How often have we seen a previously 'stalwart' firm's reputation take a major hit and look shaky due to a recent bad trend within the firm? Pretty often.

280 - I'll admit it, I started off making fun of Baker rather than stating my (valid) point in a dry academic manner.

Aside from that, sounds like 263 and 280 both agree with my analysis that there is ample reason to believe that Baker is having significant issues (but is not necessarily dying or on life support or anything quite so dire as that).

In conclusion - Suck it 262! Nobody agrees with you! (Was that immature? yes. Thoroughly enjoyable? also yes).

My firm was just kidnapped by Somalians, will this push back my start date?

S&C and CMS deferring is bad news for 3Ls going to peer firms that haven't reconfirmed start dates yet, like DPW and STB.
The ship be sinking indeed.

I meant CSM*
-288

Anybody interested in the Easter egg hunt in my pants?

286,

Assuming you are right about the trend of major partners leaving, and 283 is in the dark regarding the departure of partners leaving at his own firm, then I agree with you that Baker is having issues. I will not opine as to whether they are significant because, to be comfortable with making that assessment, I would need even more facts than you have asserted to be true in this exchange.

Not that my opinion on the "significance" of the issues should matter to anyone reading.

-263

243:: I don't know whether Proskauer is "hurting more than others," but do think there is a possibility of some deconstruction over the next 2--3 years. It's a firm built to a significant degree with medium grade "hired guns" brought in as laterals and mergers, some of which have not worked out as hoped, and there is a fair amount of dead weight being carried. It's only speculation, but I would be quite surprised if you didn't see contractions, or even spin offs, of offices outside NYC, as well as some interim reduction in the number of NY partners. The firm needs to better define who and what it is and what direction it wants to go. As, I believe, you know.

283 - I still think 268 is a dick, but I have a couple of close friends that are at Baker and have heard some play by play on the partner departures (I had more friends there, but they got stealthed due to vague "performance" concerns once their hours went south).

I don't want to say too much and ID my friends (especially those still with the firm), but I heard in some detail about the power struggle over the managing partner role/duties, and lots of departing partners (esp. from the Columbus office).

268 was talking about lots of partners leaving over the past 2 years, which is consistent with what I've heard from inside Baker.

-280

ATL - can you ask Kirkland what the hold up is for?

Cravath didn't "defer" anyone.

They gave out start dates for people to CHOOSE. If your chosen start date was "oversubscribed," you got a totally ew start date that was ONLY one week later than the start date you wanted. Their start dates are CONFIRMED, not just given out, havcing incoming associates pick ones they want and who are now still in the dark about when they will start. And that's all folks.

i def got a call this morning deferring my s&c start date to 11/2. whatever, it's four weeks extra travel time.

263,

I don't think that 283 is in the dark about partners leaving. Since he works there, he has a vested interest in defending the firm's reputation. If the firm is a sinking ship, do we really think he would broadcast that fact?

But, don't take my word for it. No one here wants to name specific people in their tips and ID themselves or their friends or whoever, but you can independently verify what I am saying. Compare a web cache of the Baker and Hostetler directory of partners from 2 years ago with the most recent version. That will tell you everything you need to know about whether I am being honest.

Take a look at the bios of the partners that are there in 2006 but are missing now. These are not small or inconsequential partners that left.

Everyone who advises against taking anonymous posters at face value makes a good point. So, anyone who cares enough can look at the cache and see the indisputable facts for themselves.

-263

CSM offering a January start date and setting a quota for that date is unconventional though.

293,

I don't know enough about Proskauer to know whether your statements about "hired guns" or "dead weight" are true, but assuming it is your assessment seems valid.

While I know that firms don't always make the best decisions, I find it perplexing that partners at firms such as Proskauer don't just hack off all the deadweight. Certainly the current economic climate would provide cover for such a decision, even if done in one fowl swoop.

Why would partners prefer to start their own firm than merely pushing for a smaller, more stable, firm model that keeps the established firm's name recognition.

283,

A group of Baker partners and associates in the Orlando office left for Foley and Lardner back in December. The partners said the left because they thought Foley would offer them a better platform. It was no secret in the office that one of the partners who left hated the bureaucracy from the Cleveland office.

Other partners and counsel from other groups have left that office over the past year, but the office has also hired new upper level people (while laying off associates, go figure).

I don't know about the other offices, but when I worked in the Orlando office the partners would go on and on about how much of a national firm Baker is. They didn't consider themselves Cravath, but they didn't seem to consider themselves average either.

- not 286

Where is Proskauer NY moving after its current lease runs out next year?

I like Baker, it's a good firm.

Can anyone actually confirm if Baker has pushed back start dates for any offices?

I confirmed that the Columbus office has NOT pushed back the start date; Sept 7th or 8th is still the start date for at least one 3L who is headed there

Because if they haven't pushed back start dates, they also seemingly haven't let anyone go in the last 6 months that I'm aware of, or cut the summer program, or cut salaries or any used any of the other methods firms have been using during these rough economic times...which speaks to me of the health to the firm, at least seemingly compared to the hits some of the other large Ohio firms have taken (read: Squire Sanders cutting the summer program to 7 weeks, Thompson Hine laying off back in December)

Disclosure: I'm a 2L headed to the Baker Cleve office this summer merely trying to get an outsider's grasp on whether or not my future employer is weathering the storm or about to capsize...

Sullivan to Nov 2? wow. not surprised, though.

Pillsbury - still no word on start dates yet. please update the table.

Thanks, 293. Baker's growth focus has really been on DC and NY, so while I have every reason to believe your information, I still doubt that it signals a threat to the health of the firm. I'm aware of partner departures over the past 2 years and really don't think they're out of line with partner departures from peer firms, so I'm going to stick to what I know.

-283

@301 - I think they are moving to Hempstead to be closer to all of the talent.

299-Proskauer is what it is--a lower level BigLaw firm which has sought for many years to grow more by acquisitions than the internal development of lawyers, with predictable consequences in terms of dilution of firm "culture" and sense of common objectives. It will survive the economic crisis, albeit in considerably slimmed down form.

308,

Care to give an example of a firm that has followed this model, i.e, another lower level BigLaw firm which has sought to grow more by acquisitions than the internal development of lawyers? Merely curious.

303 - I've heard plenty about departing partners, and I've heard some play by play on stealth layoffs at Baker. I have not heard anything about deferred start dates or about actual call-them-what-they-are layoffs.

Incidentally, I've heard lots of notions on what constitutes a "stealth layoff". To me, I view that as being when an associate got previously good or even great performance reviews, then started getting reviews with vague performance concerns (as in, failure to provide any examples of where the formerly "good" associate went wrong and started "performing" badly) right around the time their billable hours dipped.

The people I get inside info from are all good friends of mine that are (or in some cases were) associates at Baker.

In order to answer your questions/concerns, you need the hardest thing in the world to get in the world of legal practice... you need honest answers from a partner.

How does Baker view it's strategic place in the legal market? Thompson Hine is in serious trouble because it is betting the farm on being able to emulate Jones Day, and that just ain't happening for them (I work for Thompson Hine).

After its exodus of partners, is Baker still trying to do the same thing (in which case, you should be very worried), or have they decided to try and be the go-to firm for mid-sized deals/issues in mid-sized markets (in which case, maybe they are just ahead of the curve on restructuring the firm to fill this niche).

Long story short, I don't know if Baker is dying or just got a rude awakening from its delusions of grandeur and an opportunity to adjust.

But, I will tell you this, I'd make damn sure I kept my hours over 130 each and every month.

-263

haha 304 is not surprised that S&C moved to Nov 2... so what does "wow" mean exactly?

Milbank will never start the new crop. Expect an email in December pushing you back even more.

298 it may be unconventional... but anyone who got January, chose it because they wanted it...
anyone who chose October or November, got it (or a week later).

306,

I moved from Cleveland to D.C. in '04 (full disclosure, I have zero inside information on Baker but am familiar with their reputation from Cleveland). If Baker's focus is on growing into NYC and DC, then I honestly hope they are doing waaay better in NYC than they are in D.C.

I have heard zero about Baker from within the D.C. legal community. Is there attempt to grow into DC a recent development? How many attorneys do they even have in DC?

306,

Do the Baker offices outside of DC and NY know that Baker isn't focused on them for growth? When I worked there I didn't have that impression. Is this a strategy that was recently developed?

Also, why is it that all of the job openings on the firm's website are in the Orlando office? Maybe they are growing NY and DC through other methods.

Greenberg also cut salaries to $145k

316,

Do you know if Greenburg Traurig cut any salaries in smaller markets?

316,

Do you know if Greenburg Traurig made any salary cuts in its offices that weren't at $160 (Florida offices, Phoenix, etc)?

277 - MoFo and Morgan Lewis are on the list. Orrick is not and should be included.

With all the talk of 2009 v. 2010 classes, does anyone here think that it's the 2011 class that could be screwed? Everyone's deferring 2009 to 2010, and likely 2010 to 2011. If firms decide this year to basically not hire ANYONE, or to drastically reduce their summer classes for next year, 2010 graduates will make up their 2011 class, and they can then pick up recruiting again in a year if the economy gets better.

This way there's no class gap, the people they've already committed to don't get screwed (bad PR), and they can save costs on recruiting this fall and on the summer program next year.

310, where do you work that you can bill 130 hours a month and keep your job?

310, where do you work that you can bill 130 hours a month and keep your job?

321 is a dick.

im at a v10 in NY, 4th yr associate, and PLENTY of ppl are billing less than 100 hrs a month. hence the RECESSION.

asshat.

320 - I do think the reputational harm of deferring this summer's class to 2011 and having extremely small summer classes in 2010 is better than giving massive no-offers to summers. There's obviously the extra 60,000 to defer, but they'll save some of that by hiring fewer summers. Small class sizes don't do much harm to the firm's reputation.

Summers do not go to a place that no-offers if they can go to one that doesn't. And really, why should they?

321 - Billing 130 hours a month is not seen as success at Baker and Hostetler. My point is that below 130 seems to be what puts a big bullseye on your back for a sudden, negative, yet frustratingly vague "performance" review.

That's what I'm thinking. It will be much easier to just offer and delay the 2010 summers than face the negative press of no-offering. Then, once they know how many people they have coming in 2011, they can recruit the summer accordingly, taking account of the fact that they have 2010 people coming in at the same time. This allows for balanced classes, no bad press (well, no worse than delaying start dates, which everyone has done), and reduced expenses.

- 320

Class of 2009 gets all the anxiety and headache right now-- but they are going to be fine.

Class of 2010 is going to have their fair share of headache next year, but I think it will be more tangible and they will be more informed than Class of 2009 was.

Class of 2011.. There is the problem. Basically, the law firms have a year to make up for. A year in which they should NOT have been hiring. It makes the most sense to keep their incoming 2009 class and stay the course with their 2009 summers/2010 incoming class, and just not have 2010 summers (2011 class)... or at least GREATLY reduced.

From a PR standpoint, that is the best way to go. Firing or no offering looks AWFUL. Having one year of a tiny summer class really means nothing.

327 - do you honestly believe what you are saying? The large majority of 2009 incoming associates will never step foot inside their respective firms.

327,

Firms should have been doing this for this summer as well. Do they really need 100 ppl starting in Jan 2010 and 100 more in October? Of course not. Firms are bullheaded when it comes to this kind of stuff and they'll keep piling on the associates and then laying people off, delaying dates, etc.

The only firms that are showing any brains are those that cut summer '09 programs in half or more.

Some 2009s will be fine. Others will continue to see their start dates deferred again and again. Painful but probably true. Best to prepare for that outcome now.

237 - Clearly you are out of the loop. It is 11/2 indeed.

310, 321 here. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post as saying that 130 hours was an acceptable number. But honestly, if you're on track to bill 1560 or less for the year, like 323, I wouldn't spend my time wondering if Baker & Hostetler is in trouble, I'd worry about my New York v10 firm.

HTH

328-- you are way too pessimistic.

I think that most if not all of the v50 incoming first years will start within this year or next.

count on it.

333 - explain to me what these firms expect will change from Sept to Jan? Will the deal volume come back to 2006 levels in a 3 month period?

All they are doing is putting off the problem for a later date.

249 - I am working at one of the four firms you mentioned and received letters and phone calls confirming my start date. Looks like you have the wrong info.

255 (and others) - Merely announcing start dates doesn't mean anything. The firms on the shame list are those that haven't confirmed which incoming associates will be starting on which dates. Those 3Ls don't know when they'll be starting yet; hence, the shame.

Proskauer is not a bad firm, just very spotty. There are first rate lawyers, but too many who have you scratching your head trying to figure out how they got to where they are.

This list is inaccurate --- Gibson announced start dates two weeks ago ---- UPDATE IT!!!!! --- See post 69 (Nov. 16 or Nov. 30, 2009) --- GDC is not on the list of shame

I think that September to January is a 4 month period where the firms expect the deal volume to steadily increase. Yes, the incoming first years starting in January may still be not enitrely needed—but that is 4 months of pure cost saving. It makes sense.

I’m not an expert or pretend to know what is in everyone’s minds, but I think that a large number of partners expect deal volume to pick back up in 2010 (as it already is at a lot of the top firms)… check out the Thomson Reuters League Tables. Many of the top firms deal volume has increased.

I think that September to January is a 4 month period where the firms expect the deal volume to steadily increase. Yes, the incoming first years starting in January may still be not enitrely needed—but that is 4 months of pure cost saving. It makes sense.

I’m not an expert or pretend to know what is in everyone’s minds, but I think that a large number of partners expect deal volume to pick back up in 2010 (as it already is at a lot of the top firms)… check out the Thomson Reuters League Tables. Many of the top firms deal volume has increased.

The stipends for Akin Gump are on top of the $11k that incoming associations are already receiving in June.

Therefore, it's actually $21k for those starting in January 2010 and $26k for those in March 2010.

And as far as I know, Sept '09, Jan '10, and March '10 are the only three start dates. I've heard of no one pushed to Sept '10.

What about Cahill? What's going on there?

ATL just updated the original post to say S&C has postponed to November.

272 re: WilmerHale start dates

LIAR!!!!

Someone mentioned this upthread, and people have mentioned this in MULTIPLE other threads about start dates, etc, but Jones Day's start date for all 3Ls, in all US offices, is confirmed as October 26. It was a pushback of about 5 weeks from the original start dates.

This info came out weeks ago, so it's far outside the list of shame. Pay attention, Elie!

Can we please have a list of firms providing health insurance during the deferral period?

Has any firm provided information regarding whether stipends must be paid back if you don't return?

King & Spalding used to have a sterling reputation.

It has clearly lost its way. SO many great partners have retired or left the firm, or passed away (R.I.P. Griffin Bell). SO few partners who are quality people remain - or at least have power to keep the once-great firm from doing such stupid things. The old guard would never have stiffed the incoming class as the new guard has chosen to do (penny wise? certainly pound foolish).

I feel SO sorry for the quality people (lawyers and staff) who remain there, some surely feeling stuck in these times of few lateral opportunities. They have to work for fools who call the shots, who seem incapable of long-term vision.

I do NOT feel sorry for the many money-grubbers who succeeded the giants in running the firm and have tarnished - and are on the way to rotting - the legacy that was left to them.

K&S chose to chase Islamic finance and compromise Western/Christian values ... and to cut many good, quality, profitable people whose reputations were wonderful, and whose character was far better than those who lopped them off.

Griffin Bell was famous for saying that a lawyer needed to guard his integrity above all else, for once it was compromised, it could never be re-established in full. Legend had it that the firm he largely saved way back when had made that saying one of its governing tenets ... but now it seems to have been buried with him.

How many other once-fine firms have also lost their way? How few will survive these difficult times? Will K&S? Should it?

346, go to hell you fucking bigot.

347 - ouch! - 346 must be onto something

346: what firms other than K&S are losing or have lost their way?

How about all of them who upped associate salary scales without any reasonable prospects of making profits (especially when their clients balked at the higher billing rates and endless churn of files by the less efficient assigned to them) ... choosing to be like the joneses instead of being prudent with long-term vision.

That probably means many of the top firms in the biggest cities, and many like K&S who aspired to be like the big ny firms (therefore many of the non-ny-based firms who grew ny practices quickly during the past ten years).

Not to mention the firms that decided ppp was the be-all, end-all, rather than being happy to make good money without having to be populated by millionaire prima donna partners.

Or the firms that either hired or have kept known creeps (read the Sutherland stuff on the hijacked K&S thread for an Atlanta example of that) rather than ejecting them and cleansing their firms of those whose poor moral character should keep them from having partners at any firm.

Or the firms that value high billable hours more than honest billing (gee, that means lots of firms, doesn't it, overbilling lawyers who read this....)

59 --

restaurants in Champaign/Urbana that are worth visiting =
Radio Maria
Silvercreek
Milo's
Great Impasta
Cafe Luna
Jim Gould's
Kennedy's

340-

Where did you get the $11K number??

Frankly, I would be concerned in my law firm had NOT pushed back start dates since that is the financially prudent move right now.

Frankly, I would be concerned in my law firm had NOT pushed back start dates since that is the financially prudent move right now.

137- what is your source? stipend?

272, I heard that as well.

Are there going to be more layoffs at Kirkland or has the dust settled? Have they pushed back start dates?

goldberg kohn is in serious fucking trouble....

laid off half its associates and indefinitely deferring associates?

More reports of unscheduled "performance reviews" at Thompson Hine. Numerous associates who got good/great reviews at their scheduled annual evaluation are now being told that there are "concerns" over their "dedication" and whether they are "billing all of their time".

Quick poll - how many of you also have partners constantly asking if you're "billing all of your time" on a project? I guess that is the most a partner can say without comitting an ethical violation by saying what they really mean - "overbill my clients so that my ppp stay up"!

Wilson Sonsini -- Jan 11, 2010 & $10k deferral stipend to be paid on an undisclosed date. Totally unsurprising result. They completely followed the market. But unlike MoFo, they paid out the summer stipend back in January.

Good grief, firms shouldn't be paying any sort of stipend. The ball is in the employer's court. Those days of courting and wooing are over. People just want to be employed.

Rather they defer start dates than lay the lot off, and considering firms need to take care of their attorneys still employed - makes sense to me.

People on here are a bunch of money grubbing whiny children.

The $10k for Wilson Sonsini is on top of the normal $17,500 stipend.

Please note the Mayer Brown January 2010 start date includes a $5k/mo stipend (for three months if starting in Jan) and health benefits (beginning in June, as always), and there is the option to seek a public interest fellowship and defer for a year, stipend and benefits to continue.

There's a fair chance the U.S. economy will recover someday. If it does, any law student with multiple job offers will be able to consult this list.

Good job ATL.

ORRICK

The Sonnenschein entry is misleading. Please update to reflect how it is treating all incomings. What's listed is just for 9 of 29 incomings. The other 20 are on par with market.

I second the request for a list of firms providing health insurance. We need to put pressure on firms to give deferred associates some kind of health package.

I'm ashamed to say my firm has engaged in more than a little obfuscation, obviously trying to push back start dates as late as possible for the majority of incoming associates without actually admitting it. Most firms picked dates at the beginning or middle of each month, but mine picked dates at the very end (reminds me of "only $99.99!"). And they claimed to give incoming associates a "choice" of start date, but gave all or nearly all incoming corporate associates a later than requested start date.

And nevermind that while pushing back start dates for people many months, they slashed salary advances by more than a third and said everything is being done "as in past years."

I really think those firms that have frankly fessed up to their situations, apologized, and made efforts to help grads make the best of it should be rewarded; and those that have tried to mislead and deceive their associates about the situation should be called out and shamed.

Does anyone know what is going on with Gardere Dallas?

Thanks for compiling this list - there is always a lot of whining, and chit chat back and forth, but the list has been helpful for me in gauging where my firm will come down, and how the market is doing.

Any information on Boies, Schiller, & Flexner? Manatt Phelps? Bond Schoeneck and King? Or other Am 200 firms like Sullivan & Worcester (mentioned earlier in this thread)?