A Tale of Two Commencement Speakers
We are entering that most excellent time of the year when universities announce their choices for commencement and class day speakers. Who gets chosen to go where is always a fun indication of who is hot on the speaker circuit, and which schools have the most pull.
We’re getting some early reports on some law school speakers, and so far two really stand out: Columbia is inviting Gray Davis, Boston College Law scored Ben Bernanke.
The reaction from CLS students to former (failed) Governor Davis is nothing short of hilarious. You’d think they invited Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak at … oh, sorry.
Here’s an excerpt of a (fictitious) letter that has been going around, heralding the coming of Gray Davis:
Or look at what the Graduation Committee is saying:
Dear Class of 2009,It is our distinct pleasure to announce yet again our Commencement speaker, a man with a particularly poignant history. At some point in our lives, we will all fail. Some of our failures will be small, others more painful. We will endure failures beyond our control, like many employees in the current economy. Hopefully, we will continue to learn from these failures.
Former California Governor Gray Davis is a man who has had his own failures, despite a proud record of public service and personal success. His recall gripped the nation, and the story of his subsequent rehabilitation approaches that of Presidents Clinton, Carter, and Nixon in its scope and influence. He is also an alumnus of Columbia Law School, and speaker at our graduation ceremony. We hope that you will join us in welcoming him and take this opportunity to learn from his journey just as you begin your own personal and professional path post-law school. His story is all the more on point given the uncertainty that we ourselves face in the coming months and years.
Is this like a law school version of the scared straight program?
Moving north, the students at BC Law have a very different reaction to their commencement speaker.
Boston College Law School seems to have had the same thought at Columbia Law School. The economy is terrible, and both schools wanted to get somebody who could speak intelligently about terrible economies.
But the devil is in the details. BC Law decided to go with somebody who is trying to fix the economy, instead of somebody who knows a lot about being screwed by the economy:
“The timeliness for Chairman Bernanke is uncanny,” said Boston College Law School alumnus Dan Roth ‘04, echoing the positive sentiments of much of the greater Boston College Law School community of students, faculty and alumni.
Last year, BC Law went with Mike Mukasey. The Bernanke choice is making the BC community much happier:
While many students and faculty expressed reservations last year about the selection of then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey as speaker, Chairman Bernanke seems highly defensible, at worst.Chairman Bernanke “does not appear to represent a position that violates international and domestic criminal law and moral norms, and he certainly will have some timely perceptions to share,” said Professor Zygmunt Plater.
Who’s who on the law school speaker circuit this spring? Send us your information to tips@abovethelaw.com, subject heading “commencement.”
Bernanke to be 2009 BC Law Commencement Speaker [EagleOnline]
Gray Davis to Speak at CLS.pdf
(182) Comments
Comments
zib
"which schools are making have the most pull"?
Dear Thompson Hine,
Thanks for cutting my pay by 1/6th, making work miserable for those of us that haven't been laid off, and for being dicks in general.
-Rogue Associate.
"I am in yor lawferm. Wright nau U R peying mi to wright this abowt U. NJOY"
"which schools are making have the most pull. "
Are you even trying?
Those CLS fascisTTT-GOP TTTurds. Gray Davis was a great Governor of California and was purely the victim of a concerted and extraordinary (to say the least) political campaign to remove him from office. He didn't do anything wrong, he didn't resign in shame (or resign at all), he was simply un-elected (11 months after he was resoundingly re-elected by popular vote). So what? He's still a quality guy and 20+-year dedicated government servant and Army Captain. You CLS bitches suck (except those of you who don't).
The ship be sinking...
at CLS.
"Who gets chosen to go where is always a fun indication of who is hot on the speaker circuit, and which schools are making have the most pull."
Maybe Elie should hire the chick from Yahoo! with a degree in literature.
"Who gets chosen to go where is always a fun indication of who is hot on the speaker circuit, and which schools are making have the most pull."
Maybe Elie should hire the chick from Yahoo! with a degree in literature.
Mukasey representents violations of domestic criminal law norms? Who knew
It won't work, Schizer. The worse you do, the more security you'll have.
"which schools are making have the most pull. "
Elie, dude, this is a blog for laywers - you gotta start acting like one and proofread. I mean all it takes is one read through before posting.
Where am I going to get my GD 7.5 billable hours today?????
lol. Always knew CLS was a TTT
I think Elie should be fined $500 and given proofreading tips.
CLS student here. A lot of us are upset as much by the process that led to Gray Davis being selected moreso than his identity.
Beyond that, I know many students who had no problem with it even until receiving that letter likening him to "Presidents Clinton, Carter, and Nixon," which is just absurd.
We don't need to select from our alumni, particularly when all the ones worth listening to (save for Eric Holder) are dead. What about like, Cory Booker? Didn't NYU get him last year?
"Boston College Law scored Ben Bernake. "
Good God sir its Bernanke, how can every post have a mistake in it?
honestly, the substance and humor of the articles on dealbreaker make this site look juvenile. i hate to say it, but there's no comparison between Ellie to equity private and bess levin. the biggest shame is when their quasi legal articles re: TALF, tarp, etc blow away anything on this ATL.
Look, there's a lot of buyer's regret about Schwartzenegger, but I can't think of anyone who pines for the return of Gray Davis. He was a terrible governor. So was Pete Wilson. Deukmejian, however, was freaking awesome.
Watch the documentary "Smartest Guys In The Room." You'll learn and hear firsthand what Enron was doing to the Golden State. You'll also learn that an Enron-supported US president did little at the federal level to help resolve the issue. I have to say, Mr. Davis looked like a much more sympathetic character by the end of that documentary...
If Dealbreaker is Biglaw, ATL would be Day Pitney LLP.
18 - stop reading it then.
Elie, do you like fish sticks? Do you like putting fish sticks in your mouth? Ha ha, you're a gay fish!
Mukasey is speaking at North Carolina Law this year, thanks to a jackass conservative class president who really didn't care about the wishes of the student body.
The selection of Gray Davis by CLS is to be expected. Year after year their speakers are absolutely awful. No named losers. Why can't they get anyone half decent? The year I graduated, the president of Lincoln Center spoke. I don't recall what he spoke about or even his name. So sad...
What about the fact that Scooter Libby was the school's first choice? What's next? A Marc Dreier award for the least ethical member of the class of '09?
The selection of former disgraced governor Gray Davis as commencement speaker only confirms my low opinion of CLS. In the good old days, there were only 3 recognized law schools worth attending. I don't understand any of this top 14 or top 20 nonsense. Schools like CLS and NYU are bastions of maligned liberalism. Fortunately, this economy will also confirm that law degrees from these institutions are worthless. Enjoy the commencement of your miserable lives.
Last year, it was Cynthia McKinney. Yes, the sideline reporter for NBA on ABC. kidding of course but really - this is the most expensive law school in the country - what are they wasting my tuition money on? Are those underground kegs filled with Courvoisier?
26 - I hope you're kidding, but just in case.... the excerpt is a satire mocking the selection of Davis.
28 here. I mean Cynthia McFadden. Damn it, what a wasted post!
Hi,
I am top 5% 3L at a high end tier 4 school. I got a 1L (unpaid)internship at the Public defender's office and a (paid $12/hr)2L internship at the law offices of certain friends(i used to babysit someone in high school and both his parents were partners at a small firm). I currently have offers from both places but the small firm is paying 15k more (40 vs. 55k). What should I do? I think the small firm has substantially less job security than the PD's office but 15K is 37.5% more money. Any opinions?
LOL how many times did they use the world "fail" in the first paragraph of that CLS email?
that's gotta make the fail blog right?
29 - Ironically, it later emerged that Scooter Libby was an actual contender for Grad Speaker at CLS this year. A case of the choices living up to the satire. Just goes to show how sad the situation is for the 3Ls.
Mukasey = awesome! BHO administration = TTT.
CLS sucks, I should know I go here.
-CLS 3L
"while we were disappointed about not getting Scooter, fortunately Marion Berry will be present to give the benediction."
LOL! Very rarely is lawyer or law school humor worth more than a grin. But this is top-notch.
23 - nice
Fordham Law is having Joel I. Klein, chancellor of NYC Department of Education, as their commencement speaker.
Craig Griewe is a DOUCHE.
The email was uncalled for irrespective of who the speaker was. The man was Governor of California. Let's see how far Mr. Griewe gets in life and then discuss failures.
What is the source of that joke letter? Eve if it is a joke, a link or citation should be given. Otherwise, it's just poor reporting.
I'm sick of the lack of credibility and organization of these postings. It's frustrating to have to spent more than 1 second to figure out the point of the post and what's true/false.
38, GULC had Klein last year. He gave a decent speech but the idea of having a chancellor of education was totally lame. I think this year they're having stat boy from PTI.
Wait, Nixon was rehabilitated? I think I missed that memo.
Dear 3,
Please explain.
Thanks.
Someone sent me that parody in PDF - here is a JPG of the full thing.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt167/ForgetDavis/GrayDavistoSpeakatCLS.jpg?t=1239382142
Craig Griewe is a DOUCHE.
The email was uncalled for irrespective of who the speaker was. The man was Governor of California. Let's see how far Mr. Griewe gets in life and then discuss failures.
As a CLS student, I don't get at all the opposition to the selection of Gray Davis as our graduation speaker. I assure you, that the bitchy, sarcastic complainers who are putting out mock articles and prompting that email from the graduation committee are a small minority and are not representative of the student body as a whole. I'm embarrassed by them.
Graduation speakers should be the most prestigious or popular people possible. They should be individuals with a wealth of experience and a willingness to share the lessons that come with that experience. Gray Davis, who was an immensely popular and successful governor who fell victim to economic circumstances well beyond his control, no doubt fits this bill perfectly.
The obsessiveness with getting a "prestigious" is probably little more than a sign of deep self loathing. The fact that many of the attacks on Gray Davis are being launched anonymously or pseudonymously shows the cowardice and immaturity of those complaining.
CLS law graduates are a dime a dozen. You have too many people at the school, which dilutes demand. That is silly.
And for goodness sake...would CLS like to embarrass itself any more with it's speaker? Get Mike Tyson next time around...I hear he could graduate from CLS if he tried.
Wouldn't you much rather be at a smaller-class school? Yale, Stanford, Chicago, UVA? Why anyone would want to go to a place where you are one out of 500 is beyond me, especially in this economy.
And you can't even say that you have better networking opportunities, because CLS lawyers get bombarded with other CLS lawyers, and so on and so forth.
Lame school.
46 here. I made a big typo. I mean to say "Graduation speakers should NOT be the most prestigious or popular people possible."
Prestige and popularity isn't the point of life, nor should it be the point of graduation speakers.
@47, What the heck does a smaller class school have going for it, besides a smaller alumni network and a smaller faculty (and thus fewer specialized courses)?
47 - our classes are around 360 in number.
46 - good comment, this seems right.
Thanks 47, now I'm going go to Duke instead of Harvard!
46/51 is clearly on the Graduation Committee or Craig Griewe. The vast majority of CLS students are either ambivalent, disappointed or really pissed off. When the best response is "I don't care", you probably made a bad choice. The majority is pretty embarrassed.
"Gray Davis, who was an immensely popular and successful governor"
What in god's name are you talking about? Are you from California? He was an atrocious governor.
Agree with 54 - He was reelected with less than 50%. Doesn't sound like he was "immensely popular."
46, clearly you are an interested party with intimate knowledge of this situation.
The fact that you are posting anonymously as well shows your own lack of confidence in defending the selection. You call people here "cowards," so why don't you step up and tell us who you are when you make that statement. There's no reason we should give you any more credibility than other people here, especially given the condescending tone of your post.
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Karl Rove is speaking at Texas Tech Law.
54, it doesn't matter that he may have been an atrocious governor. He was selected because of the broad and significant impact he has had on our nation since the recall. The scope and influence of his rehabilitation following the recall undoubtedly places him in the company of a two-term POTUS whose leadership created 22 million new jobs and a budget surplus.
Can we have an open thread on Craig Griewe's douchiness? Sounds like a lot of people want to weigh in on that topic.
60 - I can't help but feel bad for him. Obviously I have no idea who he is, but this will follow Greiwe around. Things on the internet have a way of doing that.
Sucks. ATL should edit out his name unless he comes forward with a statement or something.
Can confirm what #53 said. Of all the people I've spoken to about the graduation speaker, the best response I've heard is ambivalence. Most people are displeased, to say the least. I don't know of anyone that was actually upbeat about Gray Davis.
BC Law clearly has the most prestigious speaker thus far. The pressure is on, Harvard.
CLS should have a commemorative brownout as a tribute to Gray Davis's wonderful tenure as governor.
60 nailed it
Yeah, 61, obviously you don't know him. You're the only one commenter to spell his name correctly.
Good try Greiwe, good try.
First, as a CLS student I can confirm that all members of the supposed "grad committee" are a bunch of douches. Even compared to the CLS population at large, which is saying something.
That said, this speaker selection should surprise no one. From scheduling construction on the library during finals to admitting 10432 transfer students who pay the school money but don't affect admissions stats (while taking up spots in desired classes) CLS' general MO is to screw its students. So really, there could be no more fitting good bye.
I feel bad for Craig, too. But he is the in charge of the graduation committee that suggested Gray Davis as a speaker, among others. Greiwe has done some good things in planning parties for the school, but this is what happens when you let someone like that have that much influence.
44 - Thanks for the link to the full article on Davis. That's hilarious.
CLS 3L here--agree with 53. What the heck do you mean 46? It's actually the opposite reason we're upset--we're not concerned with prestige and that's why we're annoyed our graduation committee seemed to have focused on getting some well-known, ending up with someone horrible, over maybe going for smeone a little less well known but with something worthwhile to say to us.
Also, if this had anything to do wtih being obsessed with getting someone form California (cough, craig greiwe) then that is the most ridiculous thing in the world. You are not even from there, stop pretending.
CLS 3L here--agree with 53. What the heck do you mean 46? It's actually the opposite reason we're upset--we're not concerned with prestige and that's why we're annoyed our graduation committee seemed to have focused on getting some well-known, ending up with someone horrible, over maybe going for smeone a little less well known but with something worthwhile to say to us.
Also, if this had anything to do wtih being obsessed with getting someone form California (cough, craig greiwe) then that is the most ridiculous thing in the world. You are not even from there, stop pretending.
Oh please, I don't know a single person who is not from California that cares about Davis
Why is nobody answering 31's question? I found it hilarious.
the graduation committee doesn't pick the graduation speaker. committee members weren't even selected when the decision was made. this is all craig greiwe's doing...
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73: i think you are completely right. this idiotic recommendation for a speaker happened when the graduation committee didn't exist for this year. only the chairs of the committee were picked. one final kick in the ass to remember craig by.
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Anybody else notice that the image is named "Columbia fake Gray David announcement.jpg?" Looks like the typos are no longer limited to the article itself.
This is really petty.
- CLS Alum
27,
There weren't "3". This shows that you are a law student.
63: There's loads of pressure on HLS: Do they pick the President, or one of their 5 Supreme Court Justices, or maybe the SG? If only they had a single alum who stood head and shoulders above all the rest, like perhaps the ex-governor who was booted out of office in favor of the star of Commando, it would be a much easier decision.
75/77, this is pure speculation, but i doubt the administrators like craig....the admin does not seem happy about the selection of this speakers or that moronic email craig sent out later on....they were probably fed up with his bullshit to begin with, though
CLS 3L here. Can confirm: 46 = C. Greiwe... can also confirm: he is seriously THE. WORST. PERSON. EVER.
This is 60. No need for an open thread, this post has clearly devolved into what I was looking for.
XOXOHTH 4evah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a CLS 3L, I think that this is all a little overblown. It's just a graduation speech. It's not like your degree will somehow magically acquire the taint of Davis's failed tenure as governor.
That said, the graduation committee email was a little disrespectful to our guest. Did they have to say "fail" so much? Couldn't they have just been a little more gracious and said something like "someone who has experience with trying times?"
I remember a couple years ago people were up in arms about Northwestern bringing in Jerry Springer for their grad speaker. As I recall his address was very well received once people actually gave him a chance to talk.
79: people have a right to voice their discontent - as an alum, you probably have no idea how this situation was handled. its true that public griping doesn't accomplish much, but people are pretty furious and have no real forum to complain
More than agree with 82. No way administrators like him when he goes aroudn trying to get them fired.
Another CLS 3L here - I wasn't particularly upset until I read that ridiculous, condescending email claiming Davis's "rehabilitation" is on a par with Clinton, Carter and (!?!) Nixon and then lecturing all of us about how we'll surely fail at some point in our own lives, too, and need to learn a lesson from him. The whole tone was totally inappropriate and insulting.
I'd rather hear from Clay Davis, shhheeeeeeeeetttttttttttt
FACT: Gray Davis was RECALLED after giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens, against the will of the California public.
FACT: The media asked his office for a week whether he was going to sign the illegal alien bill. They kept it quiet. THEN, around 6pm on a Friday night -- the time you release things you don't want the media to see -- he signed the bill away from the governor's mansion, in the middle of some ghetto.
FACT: Californians overwhelmingly opposed it, and then RECALLED him, making him the first governor recalled in Calif history, only the second governor recalled in the entire American history.
HE'S A LOSER because he hates the People and couldn't care less what the voters think.
FACT: Gray Davis was RECALLED after giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens, against the will of the California public.
FACT: The media asked his office for a week whether he was going to sign the illegal alien bill. They kept it quiet. THEN, around 6pm on a Friday night -- the time you release things you don't want the media to see -- he signed the bill away from the governor's mansion, in the middle of some ghetto.
FACT: Californians overwhelmingly opposed it, and then RECALLED him, making him the first governor recalled in Calif history, only the second governor recalled in the entire American history.
HE'S A LOSER because he hates the People and couldn't care less what the voters think.
Since when is caring for unpopular minorities make for a bad lawyer?
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Please don't equate federal law-breakers with "unpopular minorities."
A bank robber is not an "unpopular withdrawaler"
67 - you are leaving out losing a large % of our faculty to those downtown ninnies. Recall David Schizer.
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Gray Davis isn't an embarrassing choice because of any particular policy position. He is a disgrace because he is only the second governor in the history of the US to be recalled. Many governors of CA and other states have faced recall efforts and its long been a difficult place to be a popular governor.
But, Gray was removed from office - not for some sexual indiscretion, but for incompetence. He never redeemed himself, either. He has not been in the media, has not been a public face in politics and he retreated to a safe position at some lawfirm no one's ever heard of.
94 - The fact that you can't see a difference between a severely broken immigration system and bank robbing clearly indicates why the Davis SNAFU occurred at all. After all, these are the same voters who repealed gay marriage because it was going to somehow screw up their right to go to church. --92
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BC got Bernanke. BU got Howard Dean. I'd rather go to BC's graduation than my own.
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98 - The only thing that's "broken" with our immigration system is the government's unwillingness to enforce the law. A combination of border security, E-Verify mandated nationwide, end of sanctuary cities, end of drivers licenses for illegal aliens, end of tuition breaks for illegal aliens, and increased state and local enforcement, and the problem is solved.
We don't need new laws (aka amnesty, which the public also rejects). We need enforcement.
BTW, as #99 noted, the U.S. hasn't been attacked since 9/11, but guess what: The 9/11 illegal alien highjackers got drivers licenses from Virginia, boarded planes in the northeast, and killed dozens of Californians aboard the California-bound jets. And you want to make this happen again.
And for the record, a majority of blacks and hispanics voted against gay marriage in California -- and they're mostly democrats. You're a very confused individual.
How about legally scared straight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrXpjqkNC9g
86 - you're right, of course, that people can air their discontent. You're also right that I'm not clued into the high schoolesque drama that gets people in law school so damn furious (although from the excerpt, the email does sound atrocious).
But would your life be any different if Eric Holder spoke? Would he inspire you to jump off the Big Law cattle car and go chase your dreams? Of course not. Gray Davis may--and I'm guessing will--give a fantastic speech. Further, these comments have quickly, and predictably, turned into bashing a classmate. It's not crazy to call this thread really petty. It is. Of course I may be missing something, and I stayed the hell away from anything dealing with the administration while at CLS, but that's an outsider's opinion.
- 79
101 - That is one of my favorite LS memories.
47 here...
Why would you want to flood the market with a high number of graduates? All it does is diminish what each person is worth.
The assumption is that each major law firm wants at least some graduates from each of the top law school, which I think is a fairly uncontroversial.
So if you're at a smaller T14 school, you have a shot at all of those firms, but compete with 1/2 as many students for each slot.
All I see are benefits all around to the smaller schools.
The "specialized" courses argument doesn't hold water. Most smaller law schools have plenty of diversity as far as classes go, the nominal benefit is nowhere worth the cost of increased competition.
The global network argument doesn't work either, becuase each graduate of CLS can only be expected to accomodate a certain number of grads (so they all opt for the top students, which is no different than what a non-CLS employer would do).
When you meet a grad from a smaller school, the likelihood is higher that it will mean something, because there aren't as many around.
And since the Duke/Harvard question came up, wouldn't you rather be top 15-20% at Duke than bottom 1/3 at Harvard? Think it through.
101 - I remember, and that's not what he said.
Grow up, fellow CLSers. Please, just grow up already.
Yes 106, as as some else mentioned, its a class of 350-400. It's not exactly GULCnormous.
I agree, this is totally immature. Grow up CLS.
As someone who went to a college where people were not so pretentiously and self-righteously "political," I have been really surprised by how much paramount importance law students place on political issues. For 99% of law students the questions of "which judges are smart" to "who is the biggest D-bag in class" to "what cities/states would I be willing to live in?" to "who am I willing to listen to on graduation day without griping like an entitled little b*tch?" are ALL answered by ONE THING - political views.
News flash - politics are interesting and political views are sometimes fun things to talk about and to use to define your place in the world, but they really DON'T affect your life THAT much. Very few people's lives (and especially not those of the upper-crust types that populate most elite law schools) are very different depending on who is President or governor. Whose life underwent a concrete sea change as a direct result of Bush getting elected? Of Barack getting elected? (i.e. a concrete change, not your own personal elation or bitterness about whether the rest of America accepted/rejected your choice). As Thomas Friedman has said, in many places in the world politics really is about life or death, starvation or not, but in America the range of our politics occupies a VERY narrow range such that NOTHING REALLY CHANGES.
I would be honored to listen to Michael Mukasey or Eric Holder, John Roberts or John Paul Stevens, Bill Clinton or Bushes I or II. IT IS JUST A F---ING SPEECH. The whiny liberals pining for poor Gray Davis and the self-righteous conservatives decreeing that he could have nothing important to say are just ridiculous.
I get that people draw pride from having their school attract speakers of a certain stature. If my school (HYSCCNBMV-whatever-comes-next-who-cares) got some no-name reporter I'd be a little annoyed. But there are plenty of people out there--who share and don't share my political persuasions--who are more accomplished than I or 99% of my classmates will ever be--in the legal field or otherwise--that would make excellent speakers.
I can't wait to start work and have a family and to be around people who have more to worry about in their lives than a bunch of politicians who exist as abstractions and do ALMOST NOTHING that concretely impacts their lives or the lives of anyone else they know. There are plenty of things in life to be happy or angry about. Nowhere close to a majority of those things are anything that you vote on in November. I guess what I'm trying to say is PUT POLITICS IN PERSPECTIVE. It is not the be-all-and-end-all of life on Earth.
108,
GULC is an entirely different ball-game. They're out of their minds.
I think 350-400 is too many. 190-200 is much much better. Why throw in the extra 100 people?
Sure, it benefits the law school in terms of more donors down the road, and more profit upfront.
That doesn't mean it's better for the students. I think it's worse. The money gets squandered, inevitably, and students' job prospects are lowered.
106. You're wrong on a number of levels. Your statement about flooding the market with graduates is laughable. Let's use CLS as an example. There, we're talking about roughly 375 people. That would about 3-4 people per V100 firm. Tell me which Vault 100 firm wouldn't want at least 3-4 CLS grads. Firms just in NYC could absorb that many lawyers and everyone doesn't stay in NYC.
Secondly, larger does have its benefits. Large law schools (ex. HLS, CLS) have alums everywhere. Meaning, if you want to contact alums in virtually any city you can. Same can't be said for smaller schools.
Thirdly, your comment about diminishing the brand is ludicrous. Based on your logic each school's worth is diminished every year a new class graduates people more people with that degree "flood the market." The worth of a degree is not determined by number but by what those with the degree have accomplished after receiving it.
Finally, your Duke/Harvard point has a faulty premise. It assumes that the bottom 1/3 at HLS is discernible. At top 5 schools it generally is not. People ranked all the way from the middle of class to the bottom tend to have roughly the same GPA. Given that, I would take bottom 1/3 at HLS in a heartbeat.
Phew.
are all those moderated comments ripping on craig? come on, there have GOT to be some gems in there... leave em up, he can take it...
112
But who wouldn't also want 3-4 Yale/Chi/Stan grads?
The point is that the demand is the same, but there are a smaller number of people to spread the offers through, so it's easier to get a better offer.
That said, I just looked at the Leiter's elite rankings, and CLS was #1 there, Chicago #2, while Yale was #6. Yale is probably due to clerkship placements.
So CLS I guess is doing fine, but then, they don't have as many clerks as Chicago/Yale, so the top students are disproportionately going to top firms. Which is fine, but it still sucks for the bottom part of CLS, which I think is not as bad for smaller schools.
I'm going to refine my argument and say this only applies to the top 8-9 schools though. Sorry Duke, you're out.
CLS has become way too California-centric as of late. And the worst part is the Californians, including the one noted, complain so much about NYC. IF they dont like it, why didnt they just go to Stanford? Oh wait...maybe a nice UC (the ones they went to for undegrad)?
oh and I agree that there are too many students. 200-250 would be a good number. They should take a handful of tranfers, if any.
46 here. I am not Craig, nor am I at all involved in the selection of the graduation speaker.
My point is that the prestige or popularity of the graduation speaker doesn't matter. The speech is a chance for graduates to get some advice from someone who might have the experiences worth learning from.
Most people at the school understand this, and are indifferent or modestly supportive of having Gray Davis as speaker. I think it's incredibly embarrassing and ungrateful that a very small minority is making these snide, sarcastic complaints suggesting that Davis isn't prestigious or popular enough for us to deign to listen to him speak. What the heck?
I will make no defense of the students involved in the email "defending" the pick. I found that email to be just about as offensive as the complaints it is responding to.
UVA chose J. Harvie Wilkinson as the University-wide speaker. Of course the idiot undergrads immediately started bitching about the fact that he's viewed as a conservative jurist (without really doing any research) and that they didn't get to pick the speaker, but most folks up on the hill at the Law School are pretty pleased - those who know him look forward to a witty and brilliant speech.
can we please go back to the matter at hand -- craig being a total dipshit. thank you.
I wish Craig was better able to listen to other people, but you have to admit that he is a good kind of person to have in an organization, as a community builder and tireless organizer.
I have to admit....that Craig sucks!
117, I think you confuse "unpopular" with "incompetent" and seem to have completely forgotten that commencement speakers are traditionally considered to be an honor to the speaker and an inspiration (as opposed to a warning!) to the graduating class.
Example: A better pick might be choosing a CLS law student who goes into public service working for any sort of charity that makes a dramatic difference in the lives the underprivilged. Even if we'd never heard of said person, most of us CLS alums would admire their sacrifices or the very least not feel like the non-traditional pick made us look rediculous.
I really hope that Gray Davis is giving CLS a lot of money for this opportunity to pretend he has dignity remaining-- b/c they certainly won't be getting money from me anytime soon! I encourage all the other CLS alums to start responding to fund raising requests with the following caption: Gray Davis?? $0!
122 -- Dude, Gray Davis worked for 20+ years in government. He's a poorer lawyer than Joe Biden!
114, they may want 3-4 Yale/chi/Stanford, but they don't get it. With cls they are more likely to. Cls is a corprate whore school, ppl who want firm jobs get them.
114, they may want 3-4 Yale/chi/Stanford, but they don't get it. With cls they are more likely to. Cls is a corprate whore school, ppl who want firm jobs get them.
I second 60 and 119: Clearly the readership thinks that Mr. Greiwe is a less than popular person and would like a chance to comment on that.
Perhaps Lat could interview those close to Greiwe, and write an expose--as Lat did with a former CLS student and Sullivan associate, not so long ago.
Wow - a whole horde of anti-Craig comments disappeared. I guess Griewe is much more popular among the above the law moderators than the CLS community.
127 - i guess is this china or a craig griewe-ocracy, where you can't complain about terrible leadership on the internet.
47/106/etc --
I'm not sure what your obsession with smaller schools is. I don't see much benefit to going somewhere with a smaller alumni network, smaller faculty, smaller number of courses offered, and smaller amount of resources.
Columbia isn't huge, although it is of course bigger than a Chicago or Yale. That size enables it to support a lot of opportunities and provide resources that smallers schools might not be able to. Just the breadth of classes and student organizations is enough to put me in the Columbia-size is better than tiny camp.
You seem to think Columbia grads have trouble getting jobs because there are so many of them. That doesn't seem to be the case. Columbia grads do great with clerkships, firms, public interest, etc.
I find the comment moderation policy of this blog to be inconsistent with it's postings. The editors have no difficulty outing law students involved in salacious stories, but if the commenters complain--legitimately--about a law student not outed by the editors, the comments are scrubbed.
Griewe has clearly put-himself out in public by drafting and sending that idiotic email about Davis's failures. Anonymous commenting on the internet is the only way to hold him to account.
FYI: That "it's" in the first paragraph was for you Elie--it was a ploy to get you to sympathize with my posting.
im dissapointed because i heard that there were a bunch of anti craig griewe comments and i should check out above the law
and then when i get here i find out that he has gotten the commentators to take them down
and i feel cheated
oh well
lets see if he gets onto the california bar or if CLS's idea to not give him the recommendation on character for the bar committee was actually carried through on
@131 -- What do you mean this idea to deny a recommendation on character for the bar? I hadn't heard of this. Was this a seriously discussed idea?
131: Let's start again then! If they get taken down again, we'll start all over again. Craig Greiwe made the trains run on time! Craig Greiwe is a douche bag. One time in Con Law, Greiwe argued for segregation in schools. Craig Greiwe is not from California. Craig Greiwe sucks.
Hey, remember that time at Law Revue where the show pointed out how Craig was the over-top ass kissing a certain professor and then you looked over and Craig was sitting next to that same professor?
That was great.
129
Do you really think that the "breadth" of classes and student organizations should be a factor? The only question is whether the school offers the organizations and classes that you want to take. You don't have time to do everything.
And I highly doubt that Y/C/S have any complaints about the number of classes or organizations that are offered.
My point is that if CLS didn't have as many students, it would be easier to put a higher percentage of students in their first choice firm/clerkship. But since they have too many, it's easier to land one of those jobs at a smaller school...so the smaller school is better in the long run.
135 - (1) I think you're wrong and (2) even if you're right, CLS is not a good example to make this point.
It's really not as big as you seem to think it is. Harvard is much bigger and even NYU has ~70 more students.
122--totally agree wtih you
134--yes! and though it was funny Craig was laughing too!. That's the problem--he seems to like any attention, good or bad. Wouldn't be surprised if he enjoys being commented on here. Regardless, can we talk about how he got Wayne fired and then sent the info about it to ATL?
I'd like to hear how Wayne got fired. That was never really made clear to me. How was Craig involved.
@ 135 - You're right that it is the availability of courses and activities that you're interested in is more important than a wide variety. But you are less likely to find the courses and activities you're interested in at a small school. And because so many people come to law school with misconceptions about their interests or only vague ideas of their goals, it could be foolish to go to a school that won't give you the option to change your mind once you're there.
I guess the only thing you're really suggesting is that CLS is so big, the job market is drowning in CLS graduates, the degree is therefore undervalued, and students have trouble getting their first choice jobs/clerkships.
I don't think that's true at all. As 136 pointed out, a number of top schools are much bigger than CLS. And nearly 100% of graduates have jobs at graduation in their first choice city and first choice area of law, with the vast majority (more than 2/3) landing their first choice "dream" jobs. The demand for CLS grads from firms, judges, and organizations far exceeds interest from CLS grads.
I really don't think you're quite right about it being easier. I don't know many people from Chicago and Stanford, but as far as I can tell, their job searches were no easier than those at Columbia. Indeed, Columbia's employment stats are usually better than Chicago's.
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140: project much?
140: this is what you do with your Saturdays? And you think Craig is the douche?
98, broken how? I'm so tired of people saying the system is "broken" because we don't legally admit every illiterate Third Worlder who wants to come to the United States.
@ 143 - I'm not 98, but I think he meant "broken" in that current immigration policy is wholly out of sync with either the supply of individuals interested in coming to the U.S., the demand for such individuals by U.S. employers, and the capacity of the U.S. to welcome newcomers.
The system is also broken in that it splits up families, leads to widespread crime, wastes enormous amounts of resources, turns hard working human beings into law-breakers, and is often based on little more than a barely disguised racist zeal.
Craig did not argue for segregation in schools. What he argued was that the majority opinion in Brown v. Board of Ed was not compelling. Are you now going to attack anyone who speaks out against the wholly illegitimate Substantive Due Process doctrine?
145 is a douche. 140, on the contrary, is the most accurate post on Above The Law ever...
"@ 143 - I'm not 98, but I think he meant "broken" in that current immigration policy is wholly out of sync with either the supply of individuals interested in coming to the U.S., the demand for such individuals by U.S. employers, and the capacity of the U.S. to welcome newcomers."
That assumes that labor demand and supply should be the only relevant factor for setting immigration policy. I agree that the capacity of the U.S. to welcome newcomers is far out of sync with the current levels of legal and illegal immigration; our capacity is being overwhelmed.
"The system is also broken in that it splits up families, leads to widespread crime, wastes enormous amounts of resources, turns hard working human beings into law-breakers, and is often based on little more than a barely disguised racist zeal."
It only splits up families who break the law to begin with. And it leads to widespread crime in the sense that Hispanics crime rates are far above that of white Americans. Wanting to keep America racially homogeneous is not "racist zeal."
As a CLS 3L, I may not love the idea of Gray Davis either, but all of this Craig bashing is unnecessarily rude. If you aren't going to say it to Craig's face, then don't say it online.
Wanting to keep America racially homogeneous is not "racist zeal."
HAHAHAHA. This is a joke right?
I am curious about the Wayne story....
148- agreed. All the bashing is unnecessarily rude.
But, now I know Im not the only one "perplexed" by this individual.
148- agreed. All the bashing is unnecessarily rude.
But, now I know Im not the only one "perplexed" by this individual.
145: You might make a fair point that the substance of Mr. Greiwe's comment was not to argue in favor of segregation. I wasn't there, and I don't know. But calling the substantive due process doctrine "wholly illegitimate" is both a non-sequitur and a stretch. First, Brown was decided on Equal Protection grounds not due process grounds. You, and Mr. Greiwe, might argue that the reasoning of Brown may not be satisfactory if that's the only case you read on EP in law school, but understanding the development of EP jurisprudence throughout the 50s puts the (questionable, in hindsight) reasoning of Brown in perspective. Second, calling substantive due process wholly illegitimate betrays (again?) your lack of reasoning skills. There is an argument that SDP isn't textually supported in the constitution, but arguing that that makes the doctrine wholly illegitimate betrays (again??) your failure to appreciate the development of constitutional jurisprudence. Since the 19th century, judges had been reading substantive protections into the constitution. The Warren court was not an exception, and what you refer to as wholly illegitimate is rooted in constitutional tradition.
Since you're a CLS 3L, you're probably going to go and do corporate work at some big law firm. Thankfully you won't need reasoning skills when you're proofreading SEC filings.
140: Although you are prolific, you seem to have missed the first rule of writing, that I learned from the Facts of Life television program: Show don't tell. I'd appreciate if you would post again with examples. Craig Greiwe is a douche because _______________.
Wow, 152, 145, etc ... I thought ATL was a fun, gossip blog - not a 1L con law course ...
@ 143/147 -- 144 here. I didn't imply or state that labor supply/demand should be the only factor in immigration policy. But it certainly should be a very important one. Another important factor I mentioned is the capacity of the U.S. to accept and integrate newcomers. Including both legal and illegal immigrants, the foreign-born population as a percentage of total population is now much lower than they were in the past. Immigration has always been a key driver of the American economy and a basic foundation and strength of the American experience. Over the last 20-30 years or so, some xenophobes have sought to use interventionist policy to unnaturally change that fact by force. We generally can accommodate many more immigrants than we now legally allow, and we would be much better off socially, financially, and culturally if we did.
The system does not split up the families only of law breakers. If some people are allowed into the country legally, their families aren't. Some legal citizens have non-citizen parents who never broke the law. Even when U.S. citizens marry foreign nationals, there can be serious complications.
As for barely concealed racist zeal, you are certainly demonstrating it. (So much so that I wonder if you are flame.) You're also revealing your racial ignorance, since you don't seem to know that most Hispanics ARE whites. You also seem to be unaware that study after study has shown no correlation between immigration and crime, and indeed have found that immigrants are less likely to commit crime that natural-born Americans. America has never been a racially homogeneous country and hopefully never become a place that uses laws to force everyone to look alike.
I really hope you are flame. Otherwise, I hope that God has mercy on your soul.
I agree that it is inaccurate and unfair to say that Craig is pro-segregation. I would not normally be inclined to defend the man, but 145 is right. All Craig did was criticize the goal-oriented and sketchy reasoning the court used to reach its conclusion in Brown. He didn't criticize the substantive outcome as a matter of policy, morality, or justice. He simply argued that the majority opinion was poorly reasoned and inconsistent with the text and traditional interpretation of the constitution.
I really think that anyone who has a problem with Gray Davis or with Craig Griewe should take it up offline and in person. Underhanded, anonymous snarking is really unbecoming.
There are two types of people in this world: winners and losers. Gray Davis has proven himself to be a loser. He does not deserve the right to give a commencement speech at CLS.
154, your post is full of distortions and lies. Most Hispanics are NOT whites. Most American Hispanics, with the exception of Cubans, are mostly Indian mestizos. The fact that they might identify as white or that the Census does does not make it so.
Culturally? Have you seen the stats on Hispanic crime rates, illegitimacy, welfare use, and tendency to drop out of high school? They are not pretty. You could argue that we should increase our quota for educated Indians and Asians, but illiterate Hispanic mestizos are more of a detriment to the United States than a benefit.
I also don't know how anyone could argue that third world immigrants are less likely to commit crime than Americans with a straight fact. Illegal Hispanics constitute a huge percentage of the federal prison system, and state systems in places like California.
I'm in no way affiliated with CLS, but I'd like to point out that this entire thread makes it abundantly clear why CLS deserves a speaker like Davis. This is the most juvenile attack I've ever seen on this website. Dragging up some 3Ls academic arguments from his 1L year seems fairly desperate. Why don't you all just can it, before you shred whatever dignity your institution has.
@ 159 -- Only one person brought up the 3L's academic argument from 1L year, and a few people rallied to defend that 3L from what is as you say a juvenile attack.
I agree that it is really unbecoming to viciously criticize someone anonymously on the internet. I hope people refrain from it.
159, 160 - if you knew this kid, I think you'd see the case for relaxing those principles a bit here.
152, so the fact that judges did it gradually over time makes it legitimate?
@161 -- I do know this kid, and I certainly won't defend him on the merits. But even the most obnoxious private individuals don't deserve to be anonymously reamed behind their backs on the internet, for all the world to see with a simple Google search.
@ 157 - You're either flame or an ignorant racist, and either way no good can come of continuing to discuss this issue with you.
Can someone update us about Dean Wayne? The whole story never came out.
164, you do realize that calling someone a racist is the surest way to admit you've lost the debate. If you can't refute my points, then admit you've lost, and give up.
135 here...
CLS seems to do fine in employment, that's true. My point is that they would have an even better number if they're student body count were lower.
Chicago and Columbia are indistinguishable as far as employment stats go. Last year Chicago was #1, CLS was #2. This year it's reversed (in AmLaw 200 firms, that is). But Chicago has a higher clerkship rate, from what I understand. And if you exclude the clerkships and academic positions from Yale, my guess is that they'd be #1.
All I'm saying is that everything else being equal, lower supply means higher demand, means better employment on the whole for CLS students. My guess is that the students at the lower end of CLS are not quite as well off as they would have been had they gone to a smaller school, or that they would be had CLS been smaller itself.
This is conventional economics. Nothing too surprising about that.
"My guess is that the students at the lower end of CLS are not quite as well off as they would have been had they gone to a smaller school, or that they would be had CLS been smaller itself."
Students at the lower end of CLS would not be at CLS if it had been smaller.
167 -- The problem is, you can't understand a student's career potential by using a two variable chart you saw on the first page of an Econ 101 textbook.
It's a mistake to think that firms say "well, I need two students from each of the top schools." That's just not how recruiting logic works.
It's also a mistake to think school size is only a factor in that it increases supply. A school with a larger class size has a larger alumni network, a wider range of academic and extracurricular activities, and is able to leverage economies of scale in the career placement process.
Yes, Chicago students self select into clerkships more often. But that's all it is--self selection. Those Columbia students who pursue clerkships to fine.
You may be right that Columbia students could do even better if there were even few of them. I don't think they really need to do better, as it is already really damn easy to find a job. And as 168 noted, this size problem--if anything--only hurts the people at the bottom of the curve. Those are the people that wouldn't have been at Columbia anyway. And by being at Columbia, they increase the class rank of the higher performers who would have been there anyway. Basically, if Columbia cut its class size in half, the current median student would be at the bottom of the curve. That wouldn't improve that overall career placement (even if there were room for improvement).
A fitting end to a crappy three years. CLS has allowed one guy's bizarre personal preoccupations -- California, right wing politics, being the self-proclaimed "Elle Woods" of CLS -- to become everyone else's problem. Am sure it never even occurred to him that the point of graduation could be anything other than providing a forum for him to play footsie with Gray Davis. Shame on CLS for encouraging the most damaged and least self-aware among us to have this level of influence.
170, if he's right wing, he's working against his self interest.
168 and 169,
These are objections I have already dealt with.
1) The larger alumni network is only valuable in a very specialized situations. The alumni network, while great, is watered down by the fact that each alumni can only go to bat for a couple of people. They will choose the higher students, all else being equal, so it ends up being the same as a regular recruiter. The difference is that with the smaller schools, a fellow alumni meeting means more, because it is less frequent.
2) If the bottom-dwellers at the school were suddenly at a different school, all that does is boost CLS's prestige. This is essentially how Stanford keeps up with H/Y. If they had to recruit a larger number of students, it is quite likely that they would be down in the Chicago/Boalt range. In contrast, if CLS were to go to a 200-250 class size, it's quite likely that it would be competing prestige-wise with Harvard and Stanford.
3) The economics of this isn't that hard. The economies of scale argument doesn't work b/c of my argument in 1, unless you're arguing that the school is paying money to bring more recruiters to campus, which just isn't the case.
172 -- 168 here. I like your second argument. (Not your first argument.)
I see the CLS student body has not changed much since I graduated. Prestige-obssesed - check. Petty and backbiting - check. Pathologically conformist - check.
how has no one mentioned that Penn Law is having some random judge from South Africa that NO ONE has ever heard of OR cares about just because she got her LLM at Penn Law?
awful.
To all those people saying we should lay off Craig Greiwe because we would never say these things to his face, you are wrong. If you have ever met Craig you would be more than comfortable calling him a Douche to his face; as many of us have.
Hey Quinn Remains douche. Craig Greiwe is going to Quinn too. At least you two can enjoy each other next year.
CLS = TTT
140 = too much caffeine.
174 - if you think the CG comments are more than the work of one or maybe two people, "alumni are fucking idiots? check."
175
Because no one cares. Penn is irrelevant. It is a weak school.
179 = clearly not CLS student
These comments about Craig say more about the people who are posting them than they say about Craig himself.