Career Alternatives: Poker is a Better Bet than Yale Law School
Lawyers and poker go together like rare steak and red wine. You need many of the same logical skills, interspersed with an ability to take managed risks. With the legal job market looking like a busted straight that you shouldn’t have chased in the first place, maybe it’s time for a different game?
Vanessa Selbst, a 1L at Yale Law School, certainly isn’t relying on a recovery in the legal market for future earnings. The World Series of Poker player was profiled in the Hartford Courant, yesterday:
Although she doesn’t carry a deck of cards with her at all times, Selbst is almost always thinking about gaming, whether she’s home, on the road or in a classroom at Yale law school, where she started last fall. It’s a mental discipline that has taken her from the cafeteria of her New Jersey high school, where she played pick-up games, to the high-roller suites at Foxwood Resort Casino and beyond, helping her become the first woman to win a bracelet in an open event at last June’s 39th annual World Series of Poker (WSOP) and earn nearly $800,000 in tournament winnings in the four years she’s played professionally.
Well, that will pay for law school.
The stereotypical lawyer/poker player is a tight player who takes minimal risks. They tread water and don’t chase and take you down when you make your set on the river while they’ve been slow playing their boat all along.
But Vanessa doesn’t play that way at all.
After the jump, never bluff and bluffer.
According to Ms. Selbst, she plays a lot tighter than she used to:
In her early days, she played as many hands as she could, but now Selbst takes a tight, aggressive approach, knowing when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em, walking away a winner in more games than not.“When you have terrible cards, you have no choice but to try to pull off a few bluffs,” Selbst says. “But these days, I’m really content to tighten up and wait for my game to come around. The cards almost always improve.”
But her reputation isn’t conservative:
“Vanessa was a very aggressive player — much more a bluffer than a straight shooter,” says Nate Meyvis, a graduate student in philosophy at Columbia University and a pro player. “She’s very smart and creative, and she used whatever fundamentally unhealthy elements there were in her poker psychology as fuel to figure out all sorts of clever ways to win pots and get the best of her opponents.”
Obviously, you aren’t getting to the WSOP playing as loosely as you do in a Thursday night friendly game. And you’re not getting there when you’re only playing made hands. But you don’t often see lawyers with reputations as bluffers or finding “clever” ways to win pots. Lawyers play like Colin Powell, not Robert E. Lee.
But the bottom line is that there is money to be made on the professional poker circuit:
In the summer of 2007, Selbst again reached the WSOP finals and took home $140,000.Before returning to New Haven for law school, on June 12, Selbst won the $1,500 Pot-Limit Omaha event at the WSOP, taking home her first bracelet and $227,933 in winnings
“People still say to me, ‘Oh, you play poker. Do you make a living at that?’” Selbst says.
Oh, you go to Yale Law School. Can you make a living at that?
Yale Law Student Makes Strong Case For Being Among Poker’s Elite [Hartford Courant]




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First thing she did to celebrate was drive to Vermont to get legally married.
I have pocket rockets in my pants
Hi: I have a trial in Scranton Pennsylvania next week that isn't going to settle, so it looks like I'll be there for a while. Can anyone give me dining recommendations?
--Soon to be in Scranton
God, I hate you and your fucking stupid shtick, 3. I hope your plane crashes.
Elie - set up an ATL online poker tournament on PokerStars.
fslexcduck imo
Actually most lawyers are terrible poker players, and worse than the average player of any background. She is an exception.
4, what do you mean??? I'm just looking for good food (and, p.s., I'm not taking a plane to Scranton). I also don't understand the hostility.
I am offended by the words Scranton and PA. Please moderate.
Hi, I'm an annoying douche beating a dead horse in the Midwest somewhere. Can anyone recommend a good place where I can contract virulent dick diseases?
--Soon To Have The Clap
lol @ 10. 3 is an idiot troll.
Vanessa is amazing. <3.
never bluff and bluffer. Never flub and flubber too.
Elie: I would appreciate hearing how an opponent can "take you down when you make your set on the river while they've been slow playing their boat all along".
Have you ever played a hand of poker in your life? Do you understand that if you hit a set on the river (on a paired board obv if your opponent has a boat), you've got a full house as well? (And so help me if you try to imply that you were referring to an over- vs. an under-boat I'll backhand you.) Now stop throwing around terms you saw once on TV and go back to marinating that sofa cushion you've had your eye on since breakfast.
Marinating a sofa cushion? That's about the weirdest insult I've heard this week.
Gross income, Yalie.
Vanessa is amazing. <3.
I am very sensitive about the subject of poker and lawyers. Back in the Summer of 1999, I was walking out of Ballys in Atlantic City with my wife when out of the sky fell a man to the pavement. The man happened to be an attorney who lost all of his savings and committed suicide. Here is the relevant post on this story as written up by the NYTimes.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/10/nyregion/at-the-shore-in-atlantic-city-suicide-is-casino-gambling-s-unspoken-worry.html
Although the story did not refer to the first gentleman that committed suicide as an attorney, he was in fact one. The moral of this story is that lawyers are terrible gamblers (as evidenced by the huge enrollment numbers in law school and the mounting student loan debt problem). Ms Selbst is a gifted exception. Kids, do not try to emulate Ms. Selbst lest you want to find yourself as a red stain on the pavement of the avenue of broken dreams.
11 -- is 3 a troll? If so, 3 is horrible. I mean, do you expect to get great debate over Applebee's vs. TGI Friday's? You really aren't going to piss anyone off.
On the other hand, if it is a shtick, its just not funny.
Ever since that Duke Law article ran about shticks, everyone wants to play. I just don't understand why.
I stopped reading this board a while back -- before Elie took over or the ATL idol contest -- and just recently came back. When I returned, all I get is 20 partner emeritus / Nervous 1L / Quinn remains / wives in texas shticks.
While some are executed better than others, they are all pretty blah . . .
----------------
BTW, guys in my high school had a variety of shticks, none of them got laid.
Do all Yale chicks have man-hands like that?
10 = 3
I am not 3. I am unimpressed by his schtick, however.
-10
Do you think Vanessa will marry me?
Thank you 12. Is that Vanessa in Levittown, Pa.? It looks like it might be a little far. Is it worth the trip?
--Soon to be in Scranton (and ignoring the continued hostility)
Vanessa that is amazing! good for you.
23, only if you're female--she's at YLS after all and Vermont is close enough.
14: you're the idiot. Example: your hole cards are AK. Board is A-2-3-4-A. You rivered a set. Elie has pocket 2's and just took all your money. Learn the game before you start criticizing others for their lack of knowledge.
27,
You're an idiot.
A set is only when you have a pocket pair.
With two on the board its called trips.
14 = win
As a 1L, I usually just hung out at the OTB and ate White Castles.
30--that's why you're not Vanessa and she is. Been laid off yet, Kumar?
27, he also said "slow playing their boat all along". In your example, there was no FH slow play!
damn that girl looks like a lesbian.
Ariel Schneller aka the "Foxwoods Fiend," a top online poker pro, is starting Harvard Law in the fall. Here's his blog:
http://foxwoodsfiend.com/
27= huge douche
27 is correct, the rest of you suck at poker, just like Phil Hellmuth.
I'll second the call for an ATL poker tournament, but I recommend Full Tilt instead. Or the Borgata in Atlantic City if you're nervous about going online.
27, in addition to 28's criticism (which is correct), I also fail to see in your example how Elie's pocket two's got him a full house before the AK hand made it's set (which would really be called "tripping up" in that situation, not making a set). Elie's statement was pretty clear that the boat preceded the other hand making a set. With your example, the boat isn't made until the river.
27, in addition to 28's criticism (which is correct), I also fail to see in your example how Elie's pocket two's got him a full house before the AK hand made its set (which would really be called "tripping up" in that situation, not making a set). Elie's statement was pretty clear that the boat preceded the other hand making a set. With your example, the boat isn't made until the river.
How does Vanessa plan to explain her violation of the UIEGA as well as local laws by playing online poker illegally?
THE CT BAR CHARACTER & FITNESS GONNA OWN HER ASS.
NOM NOM NOM
22 and 10 (aka "not 3"), how do you know "his" gender then? Busted.
I shouldn't have said "slow play." Everything else was correct.
Is there a movement for FullTilt? You know, for *play* money of course.
--Elie
27 -- yeah, I think the you really can't defend Elie here . . . set = pocket pairs -- to slow play the FH means you had to have made it before the river, if that is the case, there is at least another pair on the board and the Ace high boat wins . . .
40 - I don't know his gender, it's just that English lacks gender neutral third person singular pronouns, so I use the masculine form.
-Not 3, and Not Busted.
Aces over boat
-- 42
I shouldn't have banged that intern. Everything else was correct.
-- Pres. Clinton
42, what about a board of 4474A, wherein hero has 77 and villain has AK? In this case, hero has a boat from the get-go, and villain rivers an underboat? Hero could certainly slow play his boat there and might stack a reasonably unintelligent opponent (or an intelligent one, if shortstacked).
3 -
You could try the new italian place in the old dry cleaners spot. And if you go for pizza, be sure to go to Alfredo's Pizza Kitchen. Not Pizza by Alfredo - its like warm cardboard.
Also, if you're looking for some beets, I know a nice little spot outside of town.
I shouldn't have banged that intern. Everything else was correct.
-- Pres. Clinton
"I shouldn't have said "slow play." Everything else was correct.
Is there a movement for FullTilt? You know, for *play* money of course.
--Elie"
Elie,
A set involves having a pocket pair and hitting the third on the board.
Having one in hand and two on the board is called trips.
Yes, FULL TILT (but play money sucks worse than Luce Forward's 2009 Summer Program).
26: No need to go to Vermont. Connecticut has same-sex marriage.
Elie, even allowing your edit, here are the only two possible ways P2 could have “been playing their boat all along” while P1 makes a “set” (and not “trips”) on the river. (I'm just using letters instead of numbers for the cards)
P1: AA
P2: BC
FLOP/TURN: BBCD
RIVER: A
P1: AA
P2: BB
FLOP/TURN: BCC
RIVER: A
In either case, if P2 has a full house prior to the river, P1 necessarily has a full house as well by virtue of the pair on the board that has to be there for P2 to make a full house.
Thus, P1 wins if A is a higher card than B.
Elie -- actually the scenario is just wrong.
I don' t think there is a way for you to make a FH and for the other player only to hit a set. At some point there has to be a at least a pair on the board.
Example
Player 1: AA
Player 2: KK
Flop: K 2 3
Turn: 2 (Player 2 fullhouse -- Kings over 2's)
River: A (Player 1 fullhouse -- Aces over 2's)
OR
Player 1: AA
Player 2: AK
Flop: K 2 3
Turn: K (Player 2 has trips and player 1 has two Pair)
River: A ( Each has a boat but Player 1 wins A over K)
Elie, you doofus, you need a pocket pair to make a "set". Next time don't eat your cards before showdown.
46 - I think the issue is that you didnt make your SET you made your FH -- albeit a losing one.
Please moderate any references to the word TIGHT in this post and in the comments. Have you no decency?
27 = epic fail
47, I don't know about pizza, but I like Italian food. Do you know the name of that place? I think I'll leave the beets for another visit :-)
--Soon to be in Scranton
A more subtle point - this story is about someone who plays Omaha. You don't "make a set" in Omaha - three of a kind (set or trips) is a drawing hand. It's almost impossible to win a showdown with less than a straight.
I think the big story here is that YLS admitted this 12 year old boy. Way to go Doogie!!
Online poker is full of cheats/collusions. Play at a real table. Then, if someone cheats, you at least have a chance to retaliate with your Deringer.
"It's almost impossible to win a showdown with less than a straight."
Not true at all. It is very common for a player to shove in Omaha after the flop with a flush or straight draw, especially a "wrap" straight draw. If the flush or straight doesn't hit, then it's very common for the other side to win with a simple pair or overcards.
62,
What are the odds that overcards are ever going to win a showdown in Omaha? Two sets of nine cards and not even a pair?
PLO is for LAGtard Europeans.
43 clearly = 3
Boats, rivers, sets, trips - YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS. Poker is for people who have nothing better to do with their lives. Have you ever played at a local casino? You see the type of degenerate gamblers that sit there all day ordering bad chinese food just so they can pass away the time in their pathetic lives? Just like anything in life, there are going to be the top 50-100 in the world. Almost all you idiots are NOT going to be one of them. So forget all your river, boat, over, under, trips bullshit.
Who cares about the correct lingo? I can't stand listening to people talk about donkeys, sets, boats, flops, etc, etc.
Wow I can't believe I am going to comment on this...A SET IS THE SAME AS TRIPS IS THE SAME AS THREE OF A KIND.
you all suck. this is why i hate most of the folks in NY big law.: you run your mouth off confidently about something you clearly know nothing about.
28 you're just totally wrong.
Gambling with your own money is stupid.
Haven't we learned by now that the big ballers gamble with other people's money?
69 - yes, that is why all the numbnuts on here are idiots. Small timers and amateurs.
Now I'm going to go off and Madoff a few peeps.
Vanessa is hot!
- Ellen
31 - It's called a joke, cunt. And no I haven't been laid off. If you read my posts I made partner at the age of 28. I'm set for life making tons of cash money.
72, 30: (31 here) QED.
45/48: Since when does getting a Billy Joel constitute "banging"?
"What are the odds that overcards are ever going to win a showdown in Omaha?"
69 here- I mean to say "overpair" not "overcards." You are correct that mere overcards will almost never win in Omaha. But it's common, at least in the games I play in, for players to shove with hands like A-A-X-X or K-K-X-X doublesuited and get called by someone with a big draw, in which case the aces or kings may well end up being a winning overpair.
Actually, a friend of mine who graduated top of his class at University of Oregon law school quit his job at Stoel Rives and is playing professional poker. It seems that it can be done if you actually know what you are doing. My friend makes enough to afford a house and he gets to travel to awesome places for tournaments.
73 - You must be Vanessa's lesbian lover. I bet your parents are proud.
36 is trailer trash. Who goes to Atlantic City, you east coast toolbox. Vegas or bust, son.
77, 72 & 30: (73 & 31 here) Nope, just your male sex toy. And you're welcome; glad you like it hard up the ass.
77 has a real "nice" pic. Just screams gayness!
80, do you watch TV? Have you heard of the HBO series "Eastbound and Down"? Don't answer - those are rhetorical questions. Like most law school trolls, and attorneys for that matter, you have no clue about pop culture or the world around you.
Keep living the dream Kenny!
66 - Well said.
You're all a bunch of anal retentive nerds.
81 - You're a dude who knows what's up.
hi
You said: "Obviously, you aren't getting to the WSOP playing as loosely as you do in a Thursday night friendly game. "
Anyone can enter the WSOP. It is not invitation only.
yay vanessa - she's a sweet, smart girl. AND good at basketball, too!
The poker in Atlantic City is way better than the poker in Vegas, particularly at middle limits (10/20 through 40/80, for instance).
FINALLY. A thread about poker. Couple things.
1) I'm shocked at how many of you supposedly educated lawyers don't know why 14 is correct beyond dispute.
2) Lawyers do, in fact, tend to be good poker players for the very reasons Elie stated in the article
3) An ATL poker tournament is in order. For real money. Online/offshore (Bodog perhaps?). It's perfectly legal. Just ask that gaming prof. at UNLV law.
4) I don't trust lawyers who neither play nor understand poker, as law is just a convoluted manifestation of the purer principles comprising the psychology of poker.
That is all.
yeah 14 is correct and 68 and 27 are hilariously wrong.
nevermind the issue of a set being 3 of kind made with a pocket pair, whereas trips are 3 of a kind made with unpaired cards (e.g. AK on a board of AA234).
you can't make just 3 of a kind (set or trips, whatever) on the river if the other guy had a boat on the flop mainly because that meant the board was already paired on the flop. you can't just make a set on the river with a pocket pair because you've really made a lower full house. if you can't just make trips on the river because you've also just made a full house.
example: you hold 99
board: AJJ89
villain has: AJ or AA (boat on the flop)
you have on the river: NOT a set, but a lower full house (99JJJ)
example: you hold KQ
board: QAA2Q
villain has: AQ or QQ (boat on the flop)
you have on the river: NOT trips but a lower full house (QQQAA)
89 is correct, except, in the second scenario, the villain cannot have held QQ unless there were five queens in the deck.
88,
I haven't played online poker in awhile. Is it still easy to deposit funds? I thought Congress passed an act to make that much more difficult.
89 & 90 = dorks.
27 reminds me of a retarded kid i know. (ps - his name is not ellie)
Such a morally bankrupt individual would never be allowed passage through the gates of the vastly superior institution that some call Harvard and others call Heaven.
According to the "official dictionary of poker":
1. (n) In hold 'em and stud, three of a kind. To flop a set in hold 'em means that (most often) one started with a pair and one of those cards was among the flop (the first three community cards). Less often it means a pair was among the flop and the player had another card of that rank in the hole. 2. four of a kind, particularly as part of the phrase set of fours . . .
http://www.poker1.com/mcu/pokerdictionary/mculib_dictionary_info.asp
I interpret this definition such that a "set" means simply "three of a kind." The next sentence then defines "to flop a set." Either way, the last sentence stating "less often . . ." shows that a "set" can be made using 2 cards on the board, at least on the flop. However, Ellie's statement, "Make your set on the river," does not comport with the last sentence of the definition, so his statement would have to fit under the general "three of a kind" definition (see first sentence). Under the basic definition, his statement would be possible.
Example using Elie's statement and complying with the first definition (set = three of a kind):
55 v. AK
board: 522 7 2 (55 flops the full house. AK hits the set on the river).
According to Wikipedia:
set -Three of a kind, esp. the situation where two of the cards are concealed in the player's hole cards. Compare to "trips".
trips -- When one of a player's hole cards in Texas hold 'em connects with two cards on the board to make three of a kind. This differs from a set where three of a kind is made when a pocket pair connects with one card on the flop to make three of a kind.
Under this definition, Ellie's statement fits the definition of "set" ("especially" is not all-inclusive) but seems to not fit under the definition of "trips." However, the term "trips"only refers to three-of-a-kind using two cards on the board and one card of the player. This "differs" from sets ON THE FLOP only. Thus, under the "trips" definition, a player may hit a set on the turn or river but not necessarily have "trips," or a player may have both a "set" and "trips" on the turn or river. Regardless, a player may have a set without having trips, both in the situation of 2 cards in the hole, 1 on the board, as well as 3 cards on the board and none pairing in the hole. See the example above, which still complies with Ellie's statement and the Wikipedia definition.
According to Super System 2's Glossary of Terms:
Set = "a three of a kind hand."
trips = "three of a kind hand."
Again, I revert you to the example above.
It seems that Ellie's statement, though questionable under common poker parlance, is, in fact, possible.
"you can't make just 3 of a kind (set or trips, whatever) on the river if the other guy had a boat on the flop mainly because that meant the board was already paired on the flop. you can't just make a set on the river with a pocket pair because you've really made a lower full house. if you can't just make trips on the river because you've also just made a full house."
Wrong
example: you hold 98
board: AJJ2J
villain has: AA (boat on the flop)
you have on the river: A set!
Lick it boys!
96 = dumb as dirt
Partner Emeritus, why do you bother?
91, 88 here.
If you have more than one credit or debit card you might have to try a couple. Some banks allow transactions on Bodog/Full Tilt and others automatically detect that you are transferring money to a "gaming" site and block the transaction. But making deposits isn't the risky part. Getting your U.S. bank to accept a check from an Antigua gaming company (assuming you win) might be problematic. That's why I keep the limits very low. In any event, there is tremendous support for repealing the online gaming act. Keep your fingers crossed.
Vanessa is not the first woman to win a WSOP bracelet in an open event. Barbara Enright is the first.. and many women have won open events after her. Annie Duke, Kathy Liebert, Jennifer Harman, Cyndy Violette, Linda Johnson, Katja Thater, and Annette Oberstead just to name a few. However, Vanessa is an amazing player and a great student of the game. I'm sure many skills you learn being a lawyer can be used in poker as well!
P.S. A set is a pocket pair in your hole cards. Trips is with one in your hole cards and two on the board. hehehe