Maybe an overpaid position in a family-owned business?

Must be client 9

Latham sucks?

Most expensive degree: GW Law (more expensive than Harvard, Yale, Stanford, GULC).

It looks like William and Mary is the best value on this list.

Degree cost: $50K. Median private sector salary: $140K.

At first I was surprised that a Penn degree is the most expensive on this list, but then I realized it must be because of all the money they're throwing at Paterno and his football program. Still, kind of surprising.

1--

Probably something more academic than the incredibly complex document review you've been doing, that's for sure.

5 here. Thanks for the correction, 7.

upenn m oron not penn state...jo pa coaches for penn state...you must be illiterate

Seton Hall is lying, for one. $120K median?

Washington and Lee, bitches!

Suck my Locke Lord prestige.

You have to respect schools that are at least try to be honest about salary ranges. Compare Fordham to Alabama for instance. No way the lowest privately paid Fordham grad pulls in 150k.

We paid the Seton Hall guy 495 (the salary of 4 laid off associates) because he was such a great suck up.

-Latham

Yeah seriously, PennLaw shouldn't be that expensive since it's out in Central Pennsylvania and the University makes all that money off football apparel, tickets, etc.

11 - jersey firms pay 130

Welcome to ATL 11, the U. Penn/Penn St. joke has been running forever. It's a joke. I understand finals are near, but you need to take a chill pill.

15 - Are you referring to the UPenn - University Park campus?

7 - if you factor in COL expenses it is not, as any big city is significantly more expensive than State College.

This whole table is wrong. I'm sorry, but the "median" private sector coming out of UGA is not 130, and I'm sure the median for Indiana and Ohio State aren't in the 6 figures either. If you're in the top 20%, you've got a good shot at big law, but outside that class rank range, the starting salaries are significantly lower.

Give me a break.

13, you're right.
WTF.
I know law schools tend to embellish, but that's utter BS.

Dont' forget to show up at lipstick building on May 1st. Bring a rat or catch one on the way.

21 - You're probably right. But the fact that this stuff appears in the NYT is why people go to law school, thinking they will have it made.

495 has to be a typo

What public sector job pays $150K? To a new graduate?

Where is the love for Tulane?

Um, 19, Penn State's law school is in Philly (but your general point is right; Philly is still cheaper than DC, NYC, etc.).

Looking at some of the private sector salary ranges: what sort of legal job has a starting salary of $250k?

23- Someone should sue law schools for false advertising.

"What sort of legal job has a starting salary of $250k?"

First year associates at Wachtell make more than that.

It looks like this table is comprised of data based on those former students who choose to report.

Folks, we've been here before - remember back when people worried about how much money they'd make out of law school, and not whether they'd make money out of law school? Now, do you recall a certain hullabaloo where lots of 2Ls who ended up in the bottom half of their classes at Tier 2 and Tier 3 law schools were complaining that they'd been "lied to" about how much money they could make when they graduated, with everyone assuming they'd pull down 160 just for showing up? Yeah, that whole cluster-fuck occurred because of data like this - where students self-report to their schools, and the results are skewed upwards because people with crappy jobs (or no jobs) don't report.

31, very true. This means that those of us with crappy jobs or no jobs need to REPORT. A few "0"s should drag down the averages nicely.

I make over 200K, live in Austin, and have a very comfortable life.

Any laid off hobos (and rats) will be shot on sight if they trespass.

current latham associate

25, it's called the Yale bonus. Usually it's under the table, which is why I'm surprised Yale reported it.

27 - Penn State has three law school campuses, Philly, State College and Carlisle. State College is the largest (and tha's where the Warden business school is located as well).

This chart would be useful if it told us how many grads from each of these schools got private sector jobs, public sector jobs, or no jobs.

What a joke. No wonder the applications keep rolling in and tuition keeps on going up. Also explains why all the law grads I know are so bitter.

I haven't really followed UPenn State's football recruiting this year. Hopefully the law school tuition funds some "perks" for the recruits when they visit the campus.

"This squib was followed by a very interesting table, listing median salaries, salary ranges, and total degree cost, for 30 leading law schools."

Um, define "leading," please.

It's really not that hard to be realistic. If you work in BigLaw, depending on the size of the firm and your location, you'll earn anywhere from $125k-$200k on average out of school.

If you go with a regional large firm, you'll probably earn anywhere from $100k-$150k.

If you go with a regional mid-sized firm (less than 100 attorneys), don't expect much more than $100k.

Small firms pay anywhere from $40k to $75k on average, depending on the work.

Law students need to be realistic about what they want to practice and where. That's all.

Where does the Times get these total degree cost #'s from? From their websites:

Brooklyn's tuition -- $42,500
Fordham's tuitiion - $41,500
Hofstra's Tuition -- $39,700

Yet the NYTimes lists Brooklyn total cost $111,000
Fordham $112,000
Hofstra $118,000

29, perhaps reliance - you know, section 90.

34, i don't think that's legal

Worthless numbers that create a false presumption. Good job, NY Times.

This shit is fucking false, misleading bull. This post would have been way better if Elie bother, uh, debhunking the obvs. crap numbers.

So the lowest salary at a private sector firm is $70k for BLS grad? Are they kidding? The majority of insurance defense firms wouldn't pay that for a 1st year. I'm sure there are grads that have taken 30-40k. I guess they weren't contacted in the survey or were deemed "outliers." $145 median? Evidently the vast majority of BLS grads entering the private sector were getting "market" salaries. Tell that to all those document reviewers.

I'd bet a shiny new dime that the $495k Seton Hall grad was an executive who went part-time.

Meadow Soprano is the Seton Hall graduate pulling 495k.

More re: #42:

And Seton Hall $42,900 NYTimes has them at $106,000 total cost?

I think the jokes about UPENN and Penn State are stupid, as are most of you.

1. These starting salaries in law firms are including bonuses, which makes it increadibly decieving. I know, I know, I took tax law, a bonus counts as salary for taxes. But it shouldn't be included in a listing like this as it seems deceptive.

2. $495 is either a HUGE typo, or that guy's brother started Google or something along those lines.

3. Yale bonus? Seriously? Man does that just sound like a rich, pretentious Douche's equivalent to the popped collar.

@42 - I'm guessing the costs are offset by the average grant/scholarship amount at each school.

I think UPENN State's numbers are deceptive.
Although it cites costs at $126k, you have realize about 20k of that is for reserving Nittany Lions football tickets. Students know that any season may be Joe Pa's last, so they don't mind shelling out the money.

Also, there's no way this table is right. SO, no kid from Fordham going into the private sector is making less than $110, 000.

Yeah right. I know kids graduating from Fordham making less than that. Great deception Fordham.

Dear 10 (and everybody else who wiffed on this)

~EPIC fail

Signed,

UPennState Hater

46 - This is a Lat post, not an Elie post. Also see the update:

"A number of commenters have questioned the accuracy of the data. We don't know where the NYT got these figures; you'll have to ask them."

HA!!!! Someone from U. CHicago is making $12!!!! That's less than minimum wage!

How can the MEDIAN be 160k at all those schools? You're telling me that over 50% of the graduating classes at all those schools get BigLaw jobs in cities at the 160 scale? I call b.s. on that.

Who chooses these law schools? MOST of the Top 30 are here, but not all. And can understand the NY/NJ schools (this is the NY Times after all) but Colorado? U Buffalo? Alabama? If you're going for Top 30/40, why not Wisconsin, B.C., Ohio State, Notre Dame, U. Va. Wash. U., U. Minnesota?

The University of Iowa is one of the best values for the money -- Top 30 law school and about $30K for in-state tuition (which is easily acquirable for those out of state after their first year). Sure, most starting salaries are not quite as high (because most Iowa grads go to Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, St. Louis, Kansas City, Minneapolis, or Chicago, and really only 1-2 of those cities pays AmLaw 100 rates). It's just a strange, strange list.

Also, my guess for the outlier reports -- those people didn't get an "entry level" law job-- they got a job after law school. The person who made $495K is probably going to be a CEO of a family business and was asked to go to law school to have some marketable skills. The person who made 150K in the public sector probably ran for some medium-level public office, had a friend or family member appoint him to an upper level government job and/or was already an established politician who went to law school to be better qualified for a higher level position.

Remember not everyone who graduates from law school is 25 with no work experience, prior degrees, or connections and who begs law firms or DA offices to hire them right away.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAWGS!!! SIC EM!!!

5,

As some have pointed out that numbers are likely wrong but one guess why GW is higher than most is that they have a large night program filled with patent examiners. Evening students take 4 years to graduate and the three year tuition amount isn't pro rated over the 4 years but costs more.

33,
That must be the greatest life on earth. i just hope you get out enough to enjoy the city and the lake.
--A Texan stuck in NYC

There is nothing wrong with going to SMU law.

Brooklyn Law School (BLS) was being sued for false advertising, regarding starting salaries. These #'s are crap - which students are most likely to respond to surveys about what they are making - those with jobs. BLS' numbers are BS!

Retired partner here: I clerked for a Fed Judge after law school. The pay was about $13K. It was great money at the time.

59, seriously, you don't think Columbia places well enough in NYC to make their median 160k... This is why you try your hardest to get into one of the top schools.

I think UPENN State's numbers are deceptive.
Although it cites costs at $126k, you have realize about 20k of that is for reserving Nittany Lions football tickets. Students know that any season may be Joe Pa's last, so they don't mind shelling out the money.

These are the most worthless numbers I have ever seen. For one, the ranges mean absolutely NOTHING. Any school will send at least 1 person to a biglaw job and apparently wuite a few top schools will also have trust fund babies that go to work for private civil rights firms or whatever that pay 50k.

The medians are similarly worthless without more data. Depending on the sample size and the percentage of grads going to the private sector those "median" grads are actually "top 5-25% grads."

Oh, and I'm not being critical of David, as has been said these are not his numbers and they are in fact newsworthy- I feel bad for anyone who in anyway uses these numbers to make a decision about law school.

If I want a 3500 sq ft wife and a Lexis, which school is the best for me?

@40 "leading" means (according to wikipedia, since I don't care to dig deeper)
"In common law systems that rely on testimony by witnesses, a leading question is a question that suggests the answer or contains the information the examiner is looking for."

Elie - Hofstra grads don't need any help from you figuring out what to do. I networked and have already received one offer to interview for a position that might lead to an in house position.

Remember when the NY Times and other newspapers had people called "reporters" and "editors" who would check facts before publishing something?

So you mean Elie was wrong about predicting across the board salary cuts: shocker! I guess all of his back fat is starting to creep up his spine into his brain.

64.
You're right, there's nothing wrong with going to SMU law as long as you don't mind going to a crappy school and never leaving Dallas.

well, being that i can't do anything in the US from a top US law school, you know... I can't say things look good for others.

also, I can tell you exactly how much my school cost now that I make $0. Is $0 still considered a one digit salary? hahaha.

www.laidoffdiary.wordpress.com

74 - It is a bit premature to declare victory over the salary-cut trend.

Regardless of some question as to the accuracy of the numbers they used, all of us students are very aware of the median starting salaries and the price of tuition. What I'm not sure about is the median salary of an UNEMPLOYED person!

GW --- (almost) highest cost degree AND highest jump down the USNWR rankings. What a week for the Colonials! ;(

Columbia and NYU medians will drop after Latham NY's upcoming salary cut for first years

79 completely missed the point, according to these numbers GW is juts as good as HLS!

-YSHGW

50- seton hall just went up to 42 this year. They were 36 before (this year), so thats about right

30 - Know a lot of Wachtell associates that graduated from Duke Law? I don't think so.

lies lies and more lies

I call BS on Fordham, Cardozo, BLS, Seton Hall. My alma mater is Fordham. I can assure you there are private sector folks (I.E. any person employed in the private sector) making less than 150K. Are you kidding me? I can name a few who make 50-70.

I call greater BS on BLS, Seton Hall and Cardozo. These schools wish they could place like Fordham and yet claim similar or HIGHER (BLS/Seton) salary placement.

Career Services dirrrty little secret is to NOT ASK for the salary of folks they confirm employment for unless they know it is gov, biglaw, or non-profit related. Thereby protecting the salary schadenfreude they perpetuate.

Despite being contacted multiple times to ask whether I was employed, they NEVER bothered to ask me how much I made because they knew it would kill their fake bottom range which rightfully should start at zero for folks who couldnt find a job.

I am a 20-something graduating from a T-5 law school this year and have offers from several firms in the NY and LA area.

What law firm would give me the best shot at being partner, in the minimum amount of time with a minimal, and I mean minimal, amount of work?

I am a natural blond, run 5 miles a day, am around 5'11" and have breast implants (thanks to a graduation gift). I have a zest for life and enjoy sex, and will leave it at that.

as far as i see it, I dont need to work to earn my position at the top. I have the brains and money to have done whatever i wanted out of undergrad (not ivy, but top rated state school) and decided law was the easiest place for me to make my mark.

Honestly, I feel that I shouldnt need to work. During my summers, I was brought into several prospective client meetings and, except for one client, the partner signed on the client shortly thereafter.

I think my looks bring value to the firm far beyond any work product that I may generate, which would likely be poor because I really dont care.

Any thoughts?

Hey, can anyone give me some advice? I'm a 1L who has a (what I thought) was paid internship lined up. Last week, I was told that because of the economy, the organization is encouraging interns to seek other sources of funding. They didn't explicitly say that the internship would be unpaid, but they made it pretty clear that it will be.

I talked to financial aid and career services, and neither could offer any suggestion except to try and get a side job. The internship is in a different city, and it doesn't seem likely that I'd be able to do a full time internship and work a job that pays enough to cover my school apartment, my internship apartment (even with roommates) and food, etc.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is it a good idea to call the people back and ask if they're going to pay or not?

Hey, can anyone give me some advice? I'm a 1L who has a (what I thought) was paid internship lined up. Last week, I was told that because of the economy, the organization is encouraging interns to seek other sources of funding. They didn't explicitly say that the internship would be unpaid, but they made it pretty clear that it will be.

I talked to financial aid and career services, and neither could offer any suggestion except to try and get a side job. The internship is in a different city, and it doesn't seem likely that I'd be able to do a full time internship and work a job that pays enough to cover my school apartment, my internship apartment (even with roommates) and food, etc.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is it a good idea to call the people back and ask if they're going to pay or not?

I apologize if somebody else already commented about this, but the Wall Street Journal ran an article about a year ago concerning the inflated salaries reported by law schools. Schools admittedly only publish the salaries reported to them by their students. It is not surprising that the students making the most money are the ones reporting their salaries.

I apologize if somebody else already commented about this, but the Wall Street Journal ran an article about a year ago concerning the inflated salaries reported by law schools. Schools admittedly only publish the salaries reported to them by their students. It is not surprising that the students making the most money are the ones reporting their salaries.

87- i hope this is a joke because you would be out of your f-ing mind asking for advice from anonymous posters in a shitty blog. really, wtf.

here is my advice based upon you asking for it...quit school and do something else. internships mean you couldnt find a real job, which mean you wont find a real job after graduation, which means you wont be able to pay off any student loans you are taking out. couple that with your idiotic request for advice from anonymous posters and you get trouble.

@90 -- you are a serious dumbass.

does anyone know if the upenn cost is for in-state or out-of-state? thx.

Upenn is private. in-state and out-of-state are the same.

93 - no i don't think that's right. my roommate went there and they gave him in-state tuision b/c his parents are from pennsilvania. he loves the school though...he said he goes to all the home games and gets really drunk. lol!!

-92

94-That's Penn State, dumbass.

-93.

95 - i dont understand what u mean (or why you had to call me a dumass?!?). i was only asking how much it costs to go there if u are out-ofstate!! if u dont know than dont answer!

-92

Did anyone notice that the "alt" tag on almost all of the SBA pics say "SBA President David Sutton"? What kind of lazy-ass HTML is that??

91- you are the dumbass, fucktard.

I am so sick of Texas lying about the damn cost of attending just to boost their rankings. $56k my a$$. And yes, I am in-state, so no need to say, "gee # so and so, you must be out of state."

Also, Columbia costs 45k for tuition - thus, the cost for three years = 135k (for tuition alone).

I hear GW is trying to shore up its falling reputation with the nation's first program in pirate law. Yarrr!

Comparing the Law Grad chart to the MBA Grad chart there's a mysterious number missing: There's no "Percentage of Graduates with Offers" on the law chart. So I call bullshit. The median starting private salary for these schools is $145K-$155K? Awesome. Is that the median out of the 5 grads who have offers?

Seriously, what a bunch of bullocks.

Highest median salary = $160

Lowest-cost school with $160 median = U. Texas (56)

All you Texas haters out there = suck it

Sincerely,

Just Paid Off My Student Loans '01

what about peanut girl? isn't that going to make going to Georgia a lot more expensive?

Dear God. I went to IU, and it did NOT cost $48,000. Where on earth did that figure come from?

Dear God. I went to IU-Bloomington, and it did NOT cost $48,000. Where on earth did that figure come from?

This study has huge flaws.

1) Using median (middle) salary rather than mean (average) allows them to cover up the bimodal distribution of law grads. (http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html) Factor in the non-reporting from the lower mode and you see how the "median" graduate is making 160. What a joke!

2) Go ahead and report your $0 salary- it will not be "averaged" but will rather shift the median over by 1/2 of a person. It will take a LOT of zeros to get that to move past that right mode.

Most of these salary numbers are more inflated than a BigLaw associate's billables.

As #107 noted, new lawyer salaries follow a bimodal distribution. He posted a link to Class of 2006 data.
By the Class of 2007, the trend became even more pronounced.

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2008/07/class-of-2007-s.html

Notice also that just over half (57%) of law school grads reported, so the salaries of the other half are not even in the chart. Since law school placement offices and law students generally are more inclined to report a high salary rather than a low or no salary, the unreported students likely lie to the left of the curve.

i dont know i'm out of state at UT and pay far less than 56k to attend. 99 is getting ripped off.

"We don't know where the NYT got these figures; you'll have to ask them. "

Actually someone at ATL should ask the NYT, perhaps even challenge them for posting this stuff. But that would actually involve some form of journalism/professionalism so nm.

In the words of Steven Seagal, "go to sleep."

I graduated BLS in 2007, had to beg for a $65k starting salary and got laid off a week or so after they finally awarded me a $5k bar passage bonus. BLS encouraged me to take the job. I know doc review, ID, medmal etc. grads who make much less than these figures, not to mention the multiple unemployed, underemployed and non-legal employed grads.