Gender Bias on the Cardozo Law Review?
We've been bringing you a number of stories about law students melting down as the recession, finals, swine flu, and a spate of year-end elections takes its toll on America's next generation of lawyers.
The latest missive comes from a female Cardozo student who accuses the Cardozo law review board of gender bias. It turns out that this student lost an election to be Editor-in-Chief of the Cardozo law review.
But it also turns out that the executive board of the Cardozo law review has no female members.
The situation is so surprising that school officials have organized a meeting of all the law review 2Ls to discuss this matter. Unfortunately, the student who lost the Editor-in-Chief election will not be able to attend. Fortunately (for Above the Law readers), she decided to commit her thoughts to email:
I believe the journal does have a problem with gender bias in elections that we should address. It was striking that, for the second year in a row, the executive board does not have a single female member. It also stands out that, of all the editorial board positions with input into the article selection process for both the Law Review and de novo, not a single position is held by a woman.The all-male composition of the most influential positions on the editorial board is at odds with the composition of the journal. It is also at odds with the objective performance of the female members of the staff. Of the thirty-seven Vol. 30 staffers, sixteen (43%) are women and twenty-one (57%) are men. The results of the blind Note-selection process mirror these statistics: of the sixteen Notes selected for publication in Vol. 31, seven (44%) were authored by female staffers and nine (56%) were authored by male staffers. Statistics are not available by which I could objectively assess the quality of staffers' C&Sing work. However, the Note publication rates suggest that, when blind judging is applied, female staffers perform as well as male staffers. This objective fact regarding the quality of female staffers' Notes is not reflected by the results of the past election. I believe there were well-qualified female candidates for the executive board and other editorial board positions who were overlooked.
Are law reviews still just an elaborate old boy network? You'd think not, you'd hope not, but this student provides other compelling stats after the jump.
Instead of simply filliping out at what appears to be a less than equitable situation, this particular Cardozo student did some research:
Looking first at the executive board, the numbers were as follows: for EIC there were two female candidates and five male candidates; for EE there were three female candidates and six male candidates; and for ME there were four female candidates and seven male candidates. The odds of randomly selecting an all-male executive board were less than 30%, i.e., it was unlikely. I do not know who ran for the executive board positions for Vol. 30, but if, hypothetically, the composition of the candidates was similar to this past election, the odds of the journal having an all-male executive board two years in a row would be less than 9%--not impossible, but very unlikely.Expanding this analysis to include the submissions editors and de novo editor positions means considering the following: two women and two men ran for de novo editor; five women and six men ran for submissions editor. The odds that the entire executive board, both submissions editors, and the de novo editor would all be men, if selected randomly from the candidates who ran, was less than 7%. These odds are small enough that I do not believe the all-male result was a random occurrence.
Overall, thirty-one staffers ran for at least one position on the editorial board. Of this total, fourteen (45%) were women and seventeen (55%) were men. Eight of the female candidates (57% of those who ran) were elected to a position, while fourteen of the male candidates (82% of those who ran) were elected to a position. This means that male candidates were 44% more likely than female candidates to obtain a position, overall.
Someone will suggest that the lack of female representation on law review can be explained entirely by (totally unsubstantiated) claims that the female applicants were less qualified for positions than their male counterparts. But even that unenlightened argument would reflect back on the school itself. Is anyone suggesting that a respected law school is not preparing its female students just as well as it is preparing its male students?
In any event, it does appear the school is getting serious about the issue. Above the Law obtained this statement from the Cardozo administration:
After a recent election for members of the 2009-10 Cardozo Law Review Editorial Board, some editors were concerned that the members of the newly elected Executive Board were all males. In response, and after consultation with the Law Review's faculty adviser, the journal editors scheduled a meeting of all 2Ls on the law review for Wednesday, April 29, 2009, to consider the current election process and to discuss whether the process may and should be changed for future elections in light of diversity and equality issues. The email recently circulated to the newly elected journal was written by an editor who is unable to attend the meeting on the 29th and wished to share her views with her colleagues.
It should be a lively meetings. Surely there is a way that qualified female law students at Cardozo can have the same opportunities as the men who attend the school.
Read the full memo on gender bias below. It is long, but it a very interesting.
Earlier: More Evidence of Sexism in the Legal Community
Minority Women = Snowball In Hell
CARDOZO LAW REVIEW -- MEMO -- GENDER BIAS
All,
In response to [Redacted] memo, I believe the journal does have a problem with gender bias in elections that we should address. It was striking that, for the second year in a row, the executive board does not have a single female member. It also stands out that, of all the editorial board positions with input into the article selection process for both the Law Review and de novo, not a single position is held by a woman.
The all-male composition of the most influential positions on the editorial board is at odds with the composition of the journal. It is also at odds with the objective performance of the female members of the staff. Of the thirty-seven Vol. 30 staffers, sixteen (43%) are women and twenty-one (57%) are men. The results of the blind Note-selection process mirror these statistics: of the sixteen Notes selected for publication in Vol. 31, seven (44%) were authored by female staffers and nine (56%) were authored by male staffers. Statistics are not available by which I could objectively assess the quality of staffers' C&Sing work. However, the Note publication rates suggest that, when blind judging is applied, female staffers perform as well as male staffers. This objective fact regarding the quality of female staffers' Notes is not reflected by the results of the past election. I believe there were well-qualified female candidates for the executive board and other editorial board positions who were overlooked.
I recognize that fewer female candidates ran for many of the editorial board positions, especially the executive board positions. I hope next year we encourage female staffers to run for these positions in large numbers so that the sheer number of male candidates cannot serve as a justification for selecting an all-male board. However, the fact that male candidates outnumbered female candidates does not suffice to explain this past election's results.
Looking first at the executive board, the numbers were as follows: for EIC there were two female candidates and five male candidates; for EE there were three female candidates and six male candidates; and for ME there were four female candidates and seven male candidates. The odds of randomly selecting an all-male executive board were less than 30%, i.e., it was unlikely. I do not know who ran for the executive board positions for Vol. 30, but if, hypothetically, the composition of the candidates was similar to this past election, the odds of the journal having an all-male executive board two years in a row would be less than 9%--not impossible, but very unlikely.
Expanding this analysis to include the submissions editors and de novo editor positions means considering the following: two women and two men ran for de novo editor; five women and six men ran for submissions editor. The odds that the entire executive board, both submissions editors, and the de novo editor would all be men, if selected randomly from the candidates who ran, was less than 7%. These odds are small enough that I do not believe the all-male result was a random occurrence.
Overall, thirty-one staffers ran for at least one position on the editorial board. Of this total, fourteen (45%) were women and seventeen (55%) were men. Eight of the female candidates (57% of those who ran) were elected to a position, while fourteen of the male candidates (82% of those who ran) were elected to a position. This means that male candidates were 44% more likely than female candidates to obtain a position, overall.
Now, I do not have any reason to believe that the previous editorial board consciously discriminated against female candidates. Nor do I suggest that any of the men holding the above-mentioned positions on the Vol. 31 editorial board staff are unqualified--I respect and look forward to working with all of the Vol. 31 editorial staff. However, I do think these numbers show that we, as a journal, have a problem--while the selection for each individual position may be justifiable, the overall results just don't make sense and are undesirable. I suspect the problem is an unconscious bias that many of us still have regarding the roles of men and women. We still more readily see men in leadership positions, and fail to recognize the leadership abilities of women. I'm not just pointing fingers at others regarding this unconscious bias--I admit to it, myself. I think it is the natural result of the images, examples, and experiences to which we are exposed.
However, I think this unconscious bias is a problem we should consciously watch for and strive to correct. I can think of several reasons it is desirable to have women in some of the highest editorial positions on the journal. First, based on the objective performance statistics that we have (i.e. Note publication rates), there are female staffers who did not get positions that they deserved--this is unfair to those women. While this may seem like a small disadvantage, such early professional disadvantages faced by women build upon themselves over time. Holding an editorial board position presents advantages such as making one's resume strong and giving one chances to improve their editing skills and to interact with academics, practitioners, and judges. Women on the Law Review are being denied these advantages and opportunities.
Second, when qualified candidates are passed over because of their gender, the Law Review as an institution suffers. First, we look bad--briefly surveying the editorial board compositions of top-tier Law Reviews, you will find few that are composed only of men in the highest positions year after year. It's an embarrassing result because it makes the journal look more like a boys' social club than a scholarly endeavor. Second, it hurts morale on the Law Review--people may feel undervalued, hurt or angry, or that their qualifications are under attack. This undermines our ability to work together to produce high-quality publications and symposia. Third, it means the journal is not taking full advantage of what some of the female members have to offer in terms of leadership abilities, intellect, dedication, and creativity.
Third, I am concerned that an all-male panel of editors making all of the article publication decisions may not be sensitive to biases faced by female authors. Unlike the Note selection process, the article selection process is not blind. In choosing which articles to publish, the Law Review impacts the careers of academics and other legal professionals. I am concerned that the absence of women in the content-selection process will result in the same unconscious gender bias in article selection that we se reflected in the Law Review election results.
So that I could look into this issue, [Redacted] provided me with the submission data compiled since the Law Review began using ExpressO for its submission review process. The data I received covered all articles submitted to the journal through ExpressO from June 3, 2008 through April 6, 2009, i.e. 1,414 submissions. Of these, 489 submissions (35%) were received from female authors and 925 (65%) were received from male authors. Of these 1,414 submissions, 171 had been reviewed and either accepted or rejected by the Vol 30 or Vol 31 executive boards and submissions editors as of April 7, 2009. Of the 171 considered articles, 64 (37%) were written by female authors and 107 (63%) were written by male authors. I was pleased to find that female authors' articles have been reviewed in numbers proportionate to their submission rate.
However, the rates of acceptance are not so clearly proportionate to the rates of submission. Of the 64 female-authored articles that were considered, 7 (11%) were accepted for publication. Contrastingly, of the 107 male-authored articles that were considered, 19 (18%) were accepted for publication. Both of these acceptance rates are small, reflecting the selectivity of the journal. However, according to these numbers, when an article is reviewed, it is 62% more likely to be accepted for publication if it is from a male author than if it is from a female author. This gender disparity in acceptance rates for articles unfortunately mirrors the gender disparity in the election results.
This is not necessarily evidence of strong bias in favor of male authors, and admittedly the journal only accepts a very small fraction of the total submissions that it receives. However, there is enough of a discrepancy between the acceptance rates for male and female authors that my concern about a gender bias in article selection remains. I am encouraged by the executive board's opening up the submission review process to include input from journal members with interests in certain areas of the law--I think involving more people is one way to incorporate perspectives that are not reflected by the submissions and executive board membership. However, again, I think that these results raise a warning flag that we, as a journal, may be discriminating against women, and I think we should consciously address this possibility.
While I think its clear that the journal suffers from the unconscious bias against women that is still present in many areas of our society, what to do about it is a difficult question. I am hopeful that our awareness and discussion of this issue will lead to an overall greater understanding by the journal of biases still faced by women in the professional/academic realms, and that we will evaluate our actions with a sensitivity of this issue.
I think [Redacted] suggestion that we better explain the election process to next year's staffers, as well as conduct formal interviews, are important steps. Another idea I have discussed with [Redacted] is collecting feedback on the quality of next year's staffer assignments so that this data can be made use of in the election process. This objective data is both relevant to the election and can provide a standard against which to compare the results of the election.
I hope that we can also develop a mechanism to evaluate the results of the next election, in terms of gender diversity/equality, before announcing the results so that any problems we see can be address before the results are public. It is problematic to try to correct a problem with gender-biased results after announcing the winners because any changes made to the results could cause embarrassment or the feeling that people are having something taken away from them. While I would not go so far as to suggest quotas for next year's editorial board composition, I do think we should develop a plan to evaluate the results and correct any problems to the overall composition of the editorial board before announcing the results.
So that's my two cents on gender bias on the Law Review, and if you've made it this far I appreciate your consideration of my point of view! I'm sorry that I cannot attend the upcoming meeting, but I would be interested to hear any of your thoughts on this issue and I hope to work with all of you on addressing this issue.



Comments
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FIRSTY PRETZEL
2nd bagel............
HLS didn't have a black EIC until Obama did something about it. Quit your bitching, woman.
So what. no one coming out of TTT Cardozo is gonna have any work anyway. The doc reviews are gone. No law firms are hiring (they are firing) and heck, even big forms like Clifford Chance are canning Partners for goodness sake. A Cardozo grad who did something on the Law Review is still just from Cardozo.
umm maybe smart girls dont go to cardozo?
She wrote a great memo. Very persuasive.
This is an example of how an aggrieved law student should RESPOND.
The Loyola 3L, in last week's post, was an example of how not to REACT.
Someone will suggest that the lack of female representation on law review can be explained entirely by (totally unsubstantiated) claims that the female applicants were less qualified for positions than their male counterparts.
But even that unenlightened argument would reflect back on the school itself. Is anyone suggesting that a respected law school is not preparing its female students just as well as it is preparing its male students?
The unlenightened argument suggested is much more enlightened than your comment, Elie.
Suggesting the others are more qualified makes sense, but that suggestion does not say all men are more qualifed only those that applied. Also what if these women barely got in and scored low on the LSAT. Maybe Carozo favors women because based on their LSAT they should not even be in the running for EIC. Thanks Elie for the truly unenlightened argument.
Is Cardozo a Mormon school?
"I believe the journal does have a problem with gender bias in elections that we should address."
If she cannot open with a cogent sentence, devoid of fluffy ambiguity, she shouldn't have the job.
what? no discussion of p, variance, and whether this is at all statistically significant?
seems reasonable enough to me.
Could it be possible that Elie is the link between human and swine allowing this cross-species mutation?
the only thing more irrelevant than cardozo is the gossip about its law review.
This post was not long enough. Please elaborate.
@4:
"The doc reviews are gone. No law firms are hiring (they are firing) and heck, even big forms like Clifford Chance are canning Partners for goodness sake."
The big "forms" are going to fire your proofreading-deficient ass as well.
the memo is ridiculous for the sole reason that EVERYONE KNOWS the eic/eboard selection process on law review is complete bullshit, no matter the law school or the "diversity" of its membership. law review is inherently subjective and biased, and the cool kids (i.e., those who hang out at bars, strive for social "justice," pretend to care about other people's opinions) who did shitty work while expending a modicum of their time to assignments/etc. always win.
her fight, however, is a waste of time. if she didn't win the first vote, she guaranteed, by this memo, of coming in last in the second vote.
Really, 9? What's so bad about that sentence? It seems cogent enough to me.
Good for you!!!
Just a warning: people in these comments will trash you, call you names (most likely names specifically used to denigrate and demean women), and dismiss you. But know that there are those that support you. It is a brave thing you are doing and it needs to be done.
Kudos!!!
Is swine flu Kosher?
LockeLord Houston does not hire Cardozo grads.
Congrats to 4 on being the first to bring up TTT! You should fit in well with the large socially awkward, emotionally stunted segment of our profession.
When did you start losing your hair?
I think the important question here is why didn't these students apply to transfer to a T14 after their 1L year at Cardozo?
She seems level-headed to me. As she mentions, she's not accusing people of conscious bias, but what she mentions is cause for concern. It's a well thought out e-mail, and I don't think comparing it to other student melt-downs is quite appropriate.
By my calculation, the odds of a randomly-assigned all-male executive board are 30.3%, not "less than 30%." And "unlikely," in probability terms, isn't all that bad. It's a far cry from "remote."
Of course, women suck at math, so I shouldn't be surprised.
#16 says that law review boards are full of the bar crowd law review members who do just enough to get by. I disagree. Look at any board, and you'll see that there's always a small handful of the nerdy types who actually do most of the work while the others drink. 90% get on the board through popularity, and the other 10% pick up all the slack.
16- That can't be right! President Obama was the law review editor at Harvard. Surely he only got that by being the brightest student in the school. Voting systems are objective, and editorships mean something!
Modern law reviews are a total joke anyway. For instance, NYU law review picks a substantial percentage of law review members based on racial diversity and personal statements alone, not looking at grades at all. Law review is no longer = the best and the brightest
Seems like she has a perfectly valid claim of promissory estoppel that the elections would be fair and they obviously weren't. Slam dunk
Sue 'em
Filliping???
Shame on you, Elie. The Cardozo student wrote a level-headed, non-histrionic memo including reasoned analysis, and she was careful not to make improper accusations of discrimination. And yet, you classed her in with "meltdowns" previously covered by ATL. Clearly, the Cardozo student's memo was nothing of the sort.
I don't see a stress-induced meltdown. I see a reasonable question raised in a reasonable way (I don't think she even mentions that she was passed over for EIC), to which the school appears to be responding in a reasonable way.
Hmm... a law student being reasonable. Maybe that's why it's so newsworthy.
6 -
I totally 100% agree. This is the proper way to respond to a situation like this, she did the right thing and she persuaded me that there might be something to it. Excellent analysis.
Having scanned the issue discussed in her memo, it looks like she relied on the fact that elections would be gender-blind to her detriment. Her memo clearly addresses how she was estopped from becoming an editor.
what 2L has time during exam week to conduct side projects on the statistical probabilities of females attaining ed positions on carbozo LR?
go study for your exams
OMG something that had a 30% chance of happening happened! THIS IS MADNESS.
Glad to see Elie's inability to avoid hyperbole has spread from articles about politics/affirmative action to articles about gender.
I guess they were afraid that she would start publishing porn in the Law Reveiw.
Any updates on what was the result of the meetings they had all weekend at SkaddenDC?
Something tells me that the author of this memo is the "Playing Possum" kind of student.
The Preemptive Strike
A calculated move to pick off low-hanging fruit early in a given class period, with the hope that you'll be able to avoid being called on later to talk about something you haven't read. Caution: If done too well, can sometimes backfire; the professor may like your answer so much that he drags you into being his Socratic punching bag for much longer than you'd intended. See Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Falling on the Grenade
If your professor has a semi-predictable pattern of calling on people, and you have reason to believe that one or several of your friends are a) unprepared, and b) about to be called on, the Christ-like thing to do is to raise your own hand in order to draw the professor's attention away from other students. Also known as The Rodeo Clown.
The Mercy Kill
Sometimes called the Ben Stein, this strategy is best employed to put an end to the deafening silence following a question that is either too hard or too easy, or to silence a professor that has said "Anyone?" more than four times in a row.
Playing Possum
For gunners finding it particularly hard to get called on, feigned distraction and boredom can often provoke the desired response. Pretend to be asleep, or obsessed with your navel, and more often than not the professor will call on you, thinking you easy prey. Make him regret it.
Playing Foreign LLM
If you happen to be unprepared, disaster can often be avoided by answering in a language other than English, like Korean, or Portuguese, or Canadian.
The Admiral Stockdale
Most professors will simply move on to the next student if faced with an answer like "POTATOES! I LIKE POTATOES! WHERE'S MY PONY? MOM? ARE YOU THERE? POTATOES!" Also known locally as "The Shawn Rutherford?"
The Marvin
I don't know Marvin. I've never met Marvin. And I'm pretty sure that he doesn't even go by the name Marvin. But I have been told that once, when called on by name, while sitting in his assigned seat, Marvin successfully pretended that he was not, in fact, in class, and that a slightly confused professor was then forced to move on to the next student. For that, Marvin, we salute you.
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Haven't Read
Answer the prof's question with another question. If he fires back with yet another question, it's on. If not, he loses, and you should tell him so.
The Paige Pipkin
Really just a stalling tactic, forces the professor to clarify as many parts of the question as possible while you frantically flip pages in your case book: "Could you repeat the question?" "Could you say that one word again?" "Could you give me the language of origin?" "Could you use it in a sentence?" "Could you use it in a sentence other than the original question?"
Scorched Earth Policy
If the professor is going to take you down, then you're going to take him down with you. Pull in an unrelated law review article. Cite Blackstone. Bring up the war in Iraq. Or abortion. It often takes a little bit of creativity in some of the drier classes. Trust your instincts.
Scorched Nuts Policy
1. Spill coffee. 2. On crotch. 3. Run away.
27- Why are you so concerned about "best" and "brightest"? Everybody is special, everybody has something to say. The value of diversity is a greater contribution than mere intelligence and or hard work. Frankly, I would like to see more American law journals publishing in tribal languages.
24 is right. Turns out she's as bad at statistics as crafting a coherrent argument. The odds of randomly selecting an all male board are not less than 30%. They are in fact higher than 30%. Also the chances of the total board being all male being less than 7% as she contends by adding other positions into the calculation is also incorrect. It is above 8%. While she may have stumbled upon a random case of institutional bias, she is probably not a proper plaintiff because she's dumb as rocks.
Does one have a right to ensure that only the most qualified candidates win an election? I think not. (See 2008 Presidential Election). Democracy is messy, discriminatory and ugly so get over it.
35+37=win
Waaaaaaah!
what 2L has time during exam week to conduct side projects on the statistical probabilities of females attaining ed positions on carbozo LR?
go study for your exams
As a member of the Cardozo Law Review, I can attest that the aggrieved losing EIC candidate's statistics are highly flawed. She writes that 2 women ran for EIC but conveniently neglects to mention that all candidates had to rank their order of preference for each position and that she was the only one who put EIC as her first choice. The only other woman running for the position put it as her 4th choice. When you have 5 other people (who happened to be men) who put it as their first choice, this is the same as not running for EIC at all. For the other 2 executive board positions (Executive Editor and Managing Editor), of the people who registered a first choice, only 2 out of 7 were woman.
The failure of the writer to take the self-ranking aspect of the election into account is proof that her argument is not genuine and just another attempt by a member of the "oppressed minorities" to whine about "prejudice."
We have a black president, a female speaker of the house etc. etc. etc., but some people will never stop whining when their better qualified peers actually get what they deserve.
The people who were elected were simply better qualified than you. They won. You lost. Deal with it.
wow, i can't imagine why they didn't want this type of girl on their board
In reading this post, it looks like the writer is upset about just *SIX* executive board positions (EIC, EE, ME, "both submissions editors", and a "de novo editor"). The statistical sampling is so small that it is impossible to draw conclusions from it (at least mathematically speaking).
Also, use of percentages tends to be misleading when speaking of such a small sample set because small changes cause huge fluctuations in the percentages.
Now, the argument is still a very good political one; the math underlying it, however, is not nearly as strong as the rhetoric.
Biggest reason I turned down Cardozo for BLS: A striking lack of minority at Cardozo and no desire to do anything about it.
Maybe she just has a lack of natural aptitude.
Larry Summers
44 = awesome.
share some more insider details plz
good use of "contrastingly"
looks like the disgruntled disappointed potential speaker at USF made a late season transfer to Cardozo.
Learned Hand
yes, as in share names, etc...
The losing EIC candidate also conviniently failed to mention that a woman was the EIC of last year's Law Review and that the boards of the other journals at Cardozo are dominated by women.
There can't be '"institutional" discrimination in an organization whose membership is totally changed every year.
What a whiner!
LOL @ this TTT school and it's pitiful law review. Cardozo L. Rev. needs some affirmative action. How else are under-qualified bitches gonna get on the executive board?
Boohoo. She didn't make editor of the law review. It MUST be gender discrimination. Nevermind that she's a sloppy writer and that her stats are nowhere near being significant.
i am not understanding why this is an issue. It seems as if this girl has her facts incorrect.
The 2007-2008 EIC of Cardozo Law Review was female. This year, several of the notes editors, as well as the senior notes editor, are females. several articles editors are female. the symposia editor is female, as well as one of the two acquisitions editors.
I had sex with a current Cardozo 1L. I didn't do her in the ass, though.
37 - very nice, where is that from?
44 brings very important new information. Elie, please verify the facts and update the story if they are correct.
These facts would completely destroy the supposed "staTTTistical analysis" done by the student.
I think the bigger controversy is that none of the editorial board (EIC, EE, ME) at Cardozo is Jewish (or has Jewish last names).
If there is no systemic problem I don't see the issue. If the member of the law review want to elect only males I don't see the problem. You can't force them to vote the other way. Just like if people wanted to vote for Obama because he is black there is nothing that you can do to stop them. It cuts both ways.
She also fails to mention that both Senior Articles Editors and the Senior Notes editor are females (oh yeah . . . and she's one of them.)
I'm persuaded she has a point, and I hope it gets addressed.
It's probably because women have smaller brains
(I got this info from Borat, which is a documentary meaning it's all factual)
From her letter:
"I believe the journal does have a problem with gender bias in elections that we should address. It was striking that, for the second year in a row, the executive board does not have a single female member."
From reality:
BOTH Senior Articles Editors and the ONLY Senior Notes Editor are all female.
I guess if you define "executive board" to include "de novo" editors and submissions editors, but not Senior Notes/Articles editors, then she's right. Sounds stupid to me, but it is cardozo.
The Ugly Truth is, that Females are dumber and less effective than men. Nothing you can do about it...but I HATE when I have to work with a chick because it is gauranteed to take at least 3 hours of non-billable time longer for the project. They screw up so many times...and I end up getting home at 2am instead of 1am for a week straight trying to fix their mistakes.
The Ugly Truth is, that Females are dumber and less effective than men. Nothing you can do about it...but I HATE when I have to work with a chick because it is gauranteed to take at least 3 hours of non-billable time longer for the project. They screw up so many times...and I end up getting home at 2am instead of 1am for a week straight trying to fix their mistakes.
Doesn't the entire Cardozo law review transfer to NYU anyway? These are second stringers.
The Ugly Truth is, that Females are dumber and less effective than men. Nothing you can do about it...but I HATE when I have to work with a chick because it is gauranteed to take at least 3 hours of non-billable time longer for the project. They screw up so many times...and I end up getting home at 2am instead of 1am for a week straight trying to fix their mistakes.
In 2007-08, the EIC of the Law Review was a woman. Same goes for at least three other journals at dozo that year. I never saw any gender bias in my time at the school.
Sometimes you're not picked because you're not the best candidate. Stop whining.
I'm disheartened that you pricks conveniently begin picking apart the whistleblower rather than looking at the circumstances and judging whether there is a real problem.
For a journal to have all-male Eboards two years in a row while having a nearly equal number of men and women, this starts to sound questionable enough to at least investigate the circumstances!
And you wonder why women leave large firms in droves after 2-4 years? If the average commenter here is a biglaw associate, I think I understand why.
And FWIW, I am a woman.
63, I hope she gets addressed . . . by my penis.
The Ugly Truth is, that Females are dumber and less effective than men. Nothing you can do about it...but I HATE when I have to work with a chick because it is gauranteed to take at least 3 hours of non-billable time longer for the project. They screw up so many times...and I end up getting home at 2am instead of 1am for a week straight trying to fix their mistakes.
Her arguments are predicated on a sample size that's just too small. That said, I do empathize, and believe institutional leadership that self-selects itself can be stubborn to accepting a cultural shift.
24 - FTW
34 - Exactly. This is sparta.
And why do we talk about "women" at law schools. Any female that attends is clearly a man in training. Find me just one that can bake you a decent pie.
66/67/69 is obviously a female trolling for a response.
guess how you can tell
9% is hardly "very unlikely", I don't think that shows bias.
44 and 59 need to send in verification tips and have this story updated. Of course, ellie won't bother because he would rather spill tripe out of his gaping mouth than run a decently analyzed or researched story.
How long do you think Harvard law will let this go on before they pay Ellie to stop posting, by which he exposes the complete bullshit and detrimental effect of an affirmative action program at top tier schools?
71, it's tacky to comment on your own memo. and good luck finding a husband.
Nice 72, really mature.
72: I go to Cardozo, and trust me - you don't
71: Apparently you'd rather pick apart the commenters rather than actually reading the facts and realizing that the emailer isn't exactly being forthright.
Sorry to rain on your pity parade
61, only a racist would think it cuts both ways. Enlightened folk know that justice is a one-way street. If these guys can't make the right choice, then they shouldn't have the right to make any choice.
RABBLE! RABBLE RABBLE!
An objective and merit-based system is overly dominated by men! Let's give women preferential treatment despite their obvious lack of capacity and need for a boost!
Preferential treatment + perks = equality?
Women...get a clue. Instead of doing something about this, or taking it to the (male) board members, or just raging and breaking a bottle on someone's head, this whiny broad wrote this TL; DR dissertation on how she's been wronged. Non-confrontational, feminine passive-aggressiveness at its finest.
Larry Summers was right...
Jewish culture has always treated women as second class citizens. Indeed, women are not counted as people sufficient to create a quorum for prayer purposes.
Jewish culture has always treated women as second class citizens. Indeed, women are not counted as people sufficient to create a quorum for prayer purposes.
Proposition: Fewer women apply to law school than men.
Proposition: Top ranked law schools try to equalize gender 50/50.
Inference: Equally qualified women end up at better schools.
Corollary: Women at less competitive schools may be, on average, slightly less qualified.
That's the argument. Is this true as an empirical matter?
it was because she couldn't figure out how to only post once
get it
Also half of the submissions editors were women last year.
somebody give this girl a job already!
I went to Cardozo; it is pervasively sexist. Probably because it is: a law school (sexist profession) and Jewish (sexist religion). Welcome to your world! Do with it what you will.
I went to Cardozo; it is pervasively sexist. Probably because it is: a law school (sexist profession) and Jewish (sexist religion). Welcome to your world! Do with it what you will.
Jewish culture has always treated women as second class citizens. Indeed, women are not counted as people sufficient to create a quorum for prayer purposes.
Nicely said. I hope you apply to my law firm and receive in offer. We need people like you!
@ 22: maybe because we wanted to incur less debt? maybe because mommy and daddy aren't paying for our education, apartments, cars, etc.?
@16: the kids that care about social justice and change aren't usually the face of the new board. the new board is usually comprised of automatons--albeit hardworking ones-- who resemble those whose shoes they're about to step into.
@44: funny you should bring up the self-ranking aspect of this election. maybe you should take a look at what went on with some of the other positions: the man who got picked for another top position listed it as their SIXTH choice while some of the other positions were given to men who listed them as their third or fourth choices, which supports the notion that some of these positions were given as consolation prizes to men who got passed up for the executive board positions. this, not too surprisingly, corresponds to the statistic that men who ran for positions had an 82% chance of getting a position, while women who ran had a 57% chance of wining up with a position, DESPITE THE FACT that there were virtually equal numbers of men and women in the running.
you should learn how to check your facts before going off to a fancy firm job this summer and fucking it up for the rest of us by soiling whatever good name we still have.
@57: there are no 1L's on law review. so whatever luck you may have had is completely immaterial, and nowhere near as amusing as the earlier cadwalader comments. nice try though.
@66, 67 & incidentally 73: hitting post comment more than once, and then waiting 3 minutes to hit it again was a really good allocation of your time. mr. efficiency, can i call you for a phone consult some time soon? DICK WAD.
somebody give this girl a job already!
Jewish culture has always treated women as second class citizens. Indeed, women are not counted as people sufficient to create a quorum for prayer purposes.
========
I'm on the editorial board of a top 10 law review. We consistently have considerably more men selected than women for law review membership.
Because grades play such a large role in admissions, it is commonly believed that men tend to have higher GPAs than women at our school. I think this tends to back up 87's arg, but I'd like to see some statistics on it.
========
I went to Cardozo; it is pervasively sexist. Probably because it is: a law school (sexist profession) and Jewish (sexist religion). Welcome to your world! Do with it what you will.
24/39 and all other math geniuses out there. 30.3% is the probability of electing three males to fill the three positions (assuming they were independent events, which, per 44's post, clearly was not the case). To have some fun, though, please do the proper statistical analysis and calculate the probability of not having at least one female elected to at least one of the three positions.
The answer may surprise you (and the author of the posted memo).
This post raises an interesting question. How has the Jewish culture treated women?
Let's just say that 'dozo isn't the only law review dealing with diversity issues investigations at the moment. I'm curious how long it will take for the rest of the schools to get called out for it.
44 here. The gender is followed by the self selected ranking.
CARDOZO LAW REVIEW
VOLUME 31 SELF-NOMINATIONS (names replaced with gender)
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF [1]
Female (1) - this is the whining loser
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Female (4)
EXECUTIVE EDITOR [1]
Male (1)
Female (2)
Male (2)
Female (2)
Male (2)
Male (2)
Male (3)
Female (3)
Male (4)
MANAGING EDITOR [1]
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Female (1)
Female (1)
Male (1)
Male (2)
Male (2)
Female (3)
Male (3)
Female (4)
2008 Dozo Law Review staffers are at Debevoise, Kramer Levin, and the clerking for a ninth circuit judge.
BLOWING THIS OUT OF PROPORTION MAN ALIVE CALM DOWN YOU LOST THE ELECTION
you know what suzy q? our law review exec board for next year is ALL FEMALES.... maybe i should raise a stink at my school too?? cook up a few statistics to make the men feel better about losing the elections?
this only happened at your school for the past 2 years? doesn't sound like deeply rooted systemic discrimination to me... the statistics you gave are also flawed, sample size is too small, &c. &c..... everyone else has already said it.
plus, you can't just say "x% of females applied" and "y% of males applied" - WHO were they? WHO was friends with whom? WHO had slept with whom? WHO wrote on and who graded on? i mean, this is a law review board, not the white house cabinet here... these things are real considerations (at least i know they were when we voted for our board last year)
so REEELAAAX alice
and finally take comfort in the fact that you're NOT going to be EIC.... my girlfriend is the EIC for our board, and she hates it: you dodged a bullet - go buy yourself a beer.
(and incidentally, i voted for her last year for EIC over 2 guys just because she's cute. sex discrimination goes both ways :D )
Wait, Cardozo has a law review?
@ 22: maybe because we wanted to incur less debt? maybe because mommy and daddy aren't paying for our education, apartments, cars, etc.?
@16: the kids that care about social justice and change aren't usually the face of the new board. the new board is usually comprised of automatons--albeit hardworking ones-- who resemble those whose shoes they're about to step into.
@44: funny you should bring up the self-ranking aspect of this election. maybe you should take a look at what went on with some of the other positions: the man who got picked for another top position listed it as their SIXTH choice while some of the other positions were given to men who listed them as their third or fourth choices, which supports the notion that some of these positions were given as consolation prizes to men who got passed up for the executive board positions. this, not too surprisingly, corresponds to the statistic that men who ran for positions had an 82% chance of getting a position, while women who ran had a 57% chance of wining up with a position, DESPITE THE FACT that there were virtually equal numbers of men and women in the running.
you should learn how to check your facts before going off to a fancy firm job this summer and fucking it up for the rest of us by soiling whatever good name we still have.
@57: there are no 1L's on law review. so whatever luck you may have had is completely immaterial, and nowhere near as amusing as the earlier cadwalader comments. nice try though.
@66, 67 & incidentally 73: hitting post comment more than once, and then waiting 3 minutes to hit it again was a really good allocation of your time. mr. efficiency, can i call you for a phone consult some time soon? DICK WAD.
@44: funny how now you're only referring to the top three positions.
44/103 - u da man
(And I used the term "man" to signify our bond in the fraternal brotherhood through which we oppress all of womankind)
100 - et al. This sample size is simply not sufficient for a pure statistical comparison, especially considering that the commodity (people) are not fungible. There will be varying degrees of quality/competence/social grace among different people to an unpredictable, and certainly unquantifiable, level, especially for outside commentors. This is a pointless and absolutely useless waste of time and space.
You know what statistics ARE based on large enough populations to draw some general inferences? See post 87.
The editors in chief of the Cardozo Law review for 2007 and 2008 were females.
Hey #44,
I too am on Cardozo Law Review. And I'm going to figure out who you are. As many douchebags as there are on Law Review (and there are many), I'm sure it's just a matter of time before my amazing deductive reasoning skills lead me to you.
And then I'm going to fuck with your life. It's going to be fun. Just you wait.
I did a Cardozo chick in the ass once at a Moot Court competition. It was an all around good experience.
26: well obama did graduate magna. and he does seem to be somewhat charismatic, likeable, and has some leadership potential... is it that much of a stretch to say he WAS the best and brightest in his class?
(but to you he can't, be right? because he's black?)
The Rules are simple
TITS OR GTFO
112 = the whining loser who lost to more capable men
110 - agreed that the sample size is too small for a statistical analysis, but that does not mean we can't have some fun with probabilities, right? Now come on, what's the answer to my question (for the sake of simplicity, assume the three election events were independent)?
- 100
115 = true
116/44: you are a fucking tool.
Also at 44: if this were such a non-issue, it's sure funny how the administration thought it was enough of a problem to call a meeting with the 2Ls, isn't it?
Student-run organizations are hopelessly biased and corrupt. Film at 11.
At my T25 alma mater, the law review this year was biased the other way - you had no chance whatsoever of getting on (almost pure write on) if you were a straight, white male, unless you were one of the top 10 people in the class who get a grade point weight on their packet. Gooooo "diversity statement."
47: "Biggest reason I turned down Cardozo for BLS: A striking lack of minority at Cardozo and no desire to do anything about it."
You sir, are a moron extraordinaire, fully deserving of your third-rate education and job prospects that are meager even by 2009 standards.
If 44/103's numbers are correct, then there is no story here at all... except that there may actually be too many female editors.
120, admit is placating you with a meeting, but the result will be them tell you to stfu.
I graduated from Hofstra Law School in 2007 where I was on the Law Review. We had Ms. Stefanie Hyder as our Editor-in-Chief. Ms. Stephanie Restifo and Mr. Erick Rivero were our Managing editors. Obviously, two of the three are woman, and Mr. Rivero is an openly gay man. This executive board of minorities is the finest executive board the Law Review had ever seen.
44 -- I know who you are. You are so fucked.
I also did a Cardozo chick in the ass once at a Moot Court competition. However it was not an all around good experience.
124 - don't slander those fine people by outting that they went to hofstra
114- is absolutely right. Just look at President Obama's Columbia grades and LSAT scores and it's clear that he got into Harvard based purely on merit. Also, look at the fact that the EIC position was between Barry and another African-American and it is clear that blacks happened to have more merit that year. It is simply impossible that law review elected positions are based on anything except talent.
124 - You know how I know that all of those people were shitty editors?
They went to Hofstra.
Cardozo LR is a nearly pure meritocracy -- top 10% are invited plus a couple of write-ons and usually one transfer. LR was pretty evenly split among women and men. Since it publishes twice as often as most Lrs, it works the staff reallyt F--KING hard, e.g. forget your winter vacation adn expect to work over your summers too. There were women in the managing editor spot in 2007 and 2006, but that's the make sure everyone does their homework position. The top two spots were held by men the last 4 years running.
I don't think there's any "gender" bias in LR. People vote for the person they want to work with. You'll be spending a lot of tiem working with this person and you want to avoid a mutiny. No one really wants to work 10-15 hours a week for one credit. Everyone on law review has jobs and summer associate positions (in a normal year anyway). The issue is which candidate is going to keep the ship from capsizing into a bunch of petty squabbling and laziness.
From the tone of this woman's email, she is EXACTLY the worst person to be EinC. She ascribes gender bias to a small group of people she's worked with for more than a year because they didn't select her and then backs up her point with gender statistics for the school. That makes no sense and it shows that it's either her way or f--k you. That's a terrible attitude for an EinC who has no real power or leverage and needs to get a lot of students to make major personal sacrifices to get six issues out a year.
HTW
Women's brains are a third the size of a man's. Its science.
I graduated from a T1 school last year - the editorial board of my journal consisted of all men too... even though I very secretly liked it that way (in terms of comradery), it was just pure happenstance and nothing more.
44/103 - You're right that ranking probably influenced the issue, but you're an ignorant fool if you think that your snarky posts negate the problem.
First, sexism or perceived sexism could lead qualified women to not run for the board, or to underrank their preferences.
Second, the numbers you present don't show the whole picture. Did the voters really only elect people who ranked a position their first choice, regardless of who was more qualified? I have a suspicion that some men got their second, third, or fourth choice. I also am certain that every woman who ran had to have at least one first choice, which she did not get.
Third, if this system that disproportionately takes ranking into account systematically rejects qualified ad interested candidates, then there is certainly a flaw in the system that needs to be fixed.
Hey 123, you need a refresher on statistics. As I calculate it, there was an >25% probability of three males being selected for the top 3 positions. Keep in mind that 6 positions were chosen, but we don't have the f/m breakdowns on the other 3 positions (let's assume for argument sake that they are the same ratio). Here's how the simplified math should work. Assume that these are not independent elections (meaning that each time a position is filled, that person is now NOT running for the position below), and that each candidate has an equal chance of winning (obviously not entirely the case, but the note publication %'s are similar, and we have no good reason to assume otherwise).
(5/7 males)*(5/8 males)*(5/9 males)=24.8% probability of all-male for top 3 positions. Assuming similar math for the next 3 positions, this actually DOES get questionable.
Do the same math for a second year (we'll assume equal numbers of men and women ran both years), and it begins to look statistically significant.
From numbers above, hypothetically say that only people who ranked number 1 have a serious shot at the job. This is not true, but illustrative of the point.
“EIC
Female (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
EXECUTIVE EDITOR
Male (1)
MANAGING EDITOR
Male (1)
Male (1)
Male (1)
Female (1)
Female (1)
Male (1)”
Prob of all male assuming everyone is equal quality etc = 5/6 X 1/1 X 4/6
=
55% of an all male board. This is such a non-story and should be embarrassing for this woman.
24, 103, and other "statistical analysts." Her calculations are correct regarding the percentages.
Had you read her memo in detail you would ascertain that her calculations were based upon the actual results rather than hypothetical results. Specifically, the results allow for the fact that a person can run for multiple positions so after a male receives a posiotion the odds should rise for the remaining applicants.
Hofstra = SMU but prestigious
SMU = Wife the size of a Winnebago
@ 130 and others - You ascribe this individual's concerns to sour grapes, but I don't think that's fair. Just because she happened to run for and not be selected for EIC doesn't make the problem moot. The numbers alone show that there is something very, very fishy going on.
@ 135 - You forget that there are other positions than just those three. The probability of there being an all male board two years in a row, even assuming only "first choice" candidates are elected, is very very small.
136 -- the problem with that analysis is that it doesn't count for greater chance of getting a job that you ranked number 1. obviously the girl who ranked EIC # 4 isn't going to be selected. 135's example is a lot more on point.
@139, do we have data on 1st choices for other positions? if so, please send. the note was just meant to illustrate the relevance of preference. <3 135
Was wondering how long it would take before someone called the dozo a TTT. Thanks #4.
Having just gone through law review elections at another school, I think there is a strong but subtle bias that favors men in the process. This is especially true when the group selecting the board (as perhaps seems to be the case here) is disproportionately male to begin with.
Please note that since Cardozo is now #49 in US News, calling it a "TTT" actually means "Top Tier Toilet."
My journal's exec board for next year is ALL women...except for the EIC.
I wonder if their cycles will all attune to the EIC's. In other words, no menstruating that year...
Her argument assumes that if one votes in a closed ballot election based on gender, whether you are female voting for a male or a male voting for a male, that choice is invalid because it is biased.
Furthermore, whether or not one writes a note is correlated to leadership role, and that voting should reflect this.
Fact of the matter is that people vote for reasons unrelated to competency indicia (see, e.g., 2008 Presidential Election). People vote on leadership. and some people interpret leadership as a male trait. There may be enough of those people that in a small group, all males get elected.
If you believe in the democratic process, "bias" is not really bias, it is individual choice as expressed in an election, and therefore completely valid.
You can make an argument that we need women on a board for other reasons (i.e. reflecting a woman's postiion or bringing in a different perspective), but note that that choice is not one that everyone shares. It is based on a diversity-approach to leadership and while valid, is not universally accepted.
Using a democratic choice, and sticking with its results, is by far the most fair way to handle this.
The 2Ls on Law Review this year are a bunch of whiny gunners. I feel sorry for next year's staffers, they are going to have to put up with a lot of unnecessary drama.
- Cardozo Law Review 3L
@ 146 - Law Review is not a democratic country. It is an institution designed to publish quality legal scholarship, and its leadership positions should be based on meritocracy. You are right that in an election, some people will vote based on their prejudices, their racist or sexist biases. This should not be encouraged or accepted as "part of democracy." It should be minimized as much as possible through structural reform of the elections process.
CARDOZO is 53% FEMALE! That's sexist.
For Americans aged 15-64 years, there's ONE MALE to ONE FEMALE ratio.
So, the Law Review was clearly helping MINORITIES AT CARDOZO!
http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/info.aspx?cid=798&content=true
Everything about Cardozo is skewed to the men. Duh. Cry your eyes out, then move on. Who said life is fair?
Cardozo is under-representing MINORITIES!
Those minorities would be WHITE MALES.
@148.
I agree it should be merit, that is to say, not gender, in either way. The question is, how do you judge the merit of a leadership position? A corporation elects its directors through shareholder vote. and its officers through director vote. Stakeholder vote is the best way we have of determining merit and linking it to accountablity. It's used everywehere.
Also, this is the process that has been chosen by the journal. Cant set the process then rig the results.
And your "bias" is another person's "common sense". Not saying I agree with either way, but we need to recognize that making choices based on gender is not objectively bias, it is seen by many as simple common sense. Any attempt to limit this through structural reforms to the electoral process come very close to penalizing thought.
You have to accept that people have different motivation in voting, and if you select a voting process, organizers should not be at all creating structural reform that limits certain ways of chosing other than to effect rules that apply uniformly.
The law review where I went to school hasn't had a black member in ages. Does this mean the blind write-on is biased against blacks? I think it has more to do with the lower admission standards for those students.
Big deal. I used to pound a law review chick in the ass in one of the study rooms in the library there. Nobody had a problem with it.
136 Here. (With my Masters in statistics.)
Ranking of the positions? Please tell me you don't use this statistical knowledge before any court?
The use of ordinal data such as rankings is useless because the interval between measurements is unknown. It is a flawed basis for making decisions and one which can lead to highly biased decisions.
I find it quite interesting that the EB made no mention of qualifications for each position. Shouldn't the most qualified people be selected regardless of gender? Or should we select the person who most wants the job based on their ranking the job first?
136 Here. (With my Masters in statistics.)
Ranking of the positions? Please tell me you don't use this statistical knowledge before any court?
The use of ordinal data such as rankings is useless because the interval between measurements is unknown. It is a flawed basis for making decisions and one which can lead to highly biased decisions.
I find it quite interesting that the EB made no mention of qualifications for each position. Shouldn't the most qualified people be selected regardless of gender? Or should we select the person who most wants the job based on their ranking the job first?
@ 148, You're right. Law review is "designed to publish quality legal scholarship."
And by this loser's letter, we can see she lost for not having the ability to write quality, legal scholarship.
@157: which is why her note was selected for publication before anyone else's was, right?
102: I went to NYLS and law review was widely-criticized for not being diverse. That being said, admission was entirely blind and largely grade-based (there was a blind writing competition that mattered for some of the candidates). It gets a little dicey when getting on law review is necessary for BIGLAW consideration and you start taking race/ethnicity into account.
Can we just all admit that diversity as we know it, i.e., promotion of women and favored minority groups, is a major crock of shit?
This is great for the rising 2L females that gets onto their law review. You know they're going to have to select at least one, qualified or not, for the exec board next year
@ all the dudes talking about fucking us up the ass - i'm a little confused.
If we're men in training, wouldn't we obviously be riding you?
Dear 147,
I thought we were friends.
-Whiny 2L staffer on Cardozo Law Review with ovaries.
This is great for the rising 2L females that gets onto their law review. You know they're going to have to select at least one, qualified or not, for the exec board next year. Any chance that a 1L super-gunner bribed her to make a stink so her chances of EIC would increase?
Sigh. I went to Chicago, so take this as a grain of salt, but every year I went attended, there was one or two black folks on law review. Considering that a class usually only has 4-8, I don't think that's too terrible.
112,
Thank you for the not-so-veiled threat. I'll be waiting for you to F with my life. If you don't F with my life, I'm going to sue you on a theory of promissory estoppel and show you my huge Section 90.
- 44
Yes, 160, I believe we can.
Probability that she's right: 49.9%
Probability that she has ever made sexy: 0.000%
Probability that did more damage than good by being a whiner: 100%
Probability that she has too much time on her hands: 100%
165, but generally requires a very high LSAT and UGPA, which is why it is hard for black people to get admitted in numbers proportionate to their white counterparts.
I'm not being racist, I'm just saying that black people don't do as well on the LSAT or in college as white people - on average.
156 -- just from my personal experience reviewing law review board apps, i find that people tend to apply specifically for their #1 position and then add on other positions that they wouldn't mind having in case things don't work out.
it's clear from the essays that there is generally a very strong preference for one position over the others.
I hope that masters didn't teach you that preference is irrelevant...
Did different people run for ME, EE, and EIC? If not, then the statistics aren't as compelling because a (hypothetical) unqualified female running for multiple positions would skew the results towards a finding of bias. Of course, if multiple males ran in successive elections and were pulled from the running as they were appointed to a position, then the statistics would skew in the opposite way---picking a male EIC would make the election for EE between 5 males and 3 females, for example.
I think we can agree that the real takeaway from all this is that Cardozo is a festering TTT in decline and that people on law review are douchebags.
Quote: The use of ordinal data such as rankings is useless because the interval between measurements is unknown. It is a flawed basis for making decisions and one which can lead to highly biased decisions.
Ordinal ranking data is highly unreliable on it's own, but it definitely isn't when accompanied by essays that reveal preference, etc.
<3 135
What is it about Cardozo posts that makes everyone turn into anal pillagers?
To the writer - i really admire your actions here, and wish you the best. ignore the shit on here. many, many, many people support you.
I don't get the people calling her a whiner. The administration said "there looks like there is a big problem here, and we are really interested in getting your viewpoint on how it can be fixed. Please come to this meeting, or if you cannot make it, let us know your thoughts." She just answered that request.
Females aren't allowed in the Boy's club at Cardozo's law review.
-Soon to be editor-in-chief
I think it's a fair memo, stats aside. She hits the nail on the head when she says this:
" I suspect the problem is an unconscious bias that many of us still have regarding the roles of men and women. We still more readily see men in leadership positions, and fail to recognize the leadership abilities of women. I'm not just pointing fingers at others regarding this unconscious bias--I admit to it, myself. I think it is the natural result of the images, examples, and experiences to which we are exposed.
However, I think this unconscious bias is a problem we should consciously watch for and strive to correct. "
It's a good point; so there's not explicit sexism, but just an unconscious bias...what should Cardozo L. Rev. do about it, if the author of the memo herself says she falls prey to this same bias? She puts forward some good ideas--and it'll be interesting to see how the board plays out next year--but I mean, let's be honest, people voting for positions take into account an unknown number of variables and factors, and, knowing nothing about the qualities exhibited by any of those applying for board positions, it's kind of ridiculous to make some voting that might (or might not) have favored men into a scandal in any sense.
Also, 95/107 -- way to call out someone on multiple postings, then do the same thing yourself. kudos to you for incompetence.
176 - How do you think this came to the administration's attention in the first place? I'll give you 3 guesses.
Also, how exactly are they going to "resolve" this? Are they going to fire the elected EIC and appoint her? Good luck with that.
(x-bar -- x)
---------------- = FAIL
(s/sqrt(n))
176 - How do you think this came to the administration's attention in the first place? I'll give you 3 guesses.
Also, how exactly are they going to "resolve" this? Are they going to fire the elected EIC and appoint her? Good luck with that.
On one hand, these numbers are troubling. On the other hand, I'd like to see statistics from more than one year before I make a judgment.
As some have noted, the "preference ranking" argument is a nonstarter. Men were given positions that they ranked fourth, fifth, or sixth place in preference, over women who ranked it first, second, or third. The preference rankings might have put a dent in the emailer's rough statistics had they actually mattered in the election, but it seems they didn't. It seems what really mattered was whether you had a Y chromosome.
Everyone who is actually on Cardozo Law Review who is posting comments here should truly be ashamed. Especially #44 and the 3L, at 147. The person who wrote this memo was not a whistle blower, a whiner, or anything of the sort, as you know. A meeting was organized to discuss various opinions, viewpoints and suggestions about the "election" process and this person could not attend, so she wrote a memo, requesting that it stay internal and confidential. Whoever leaked it, obviously a Law Review staffer, has absolutely no respect for their colleagues or for Law Review. And to leak it to ATL?? Where socially awkward dorks and toolsheds whose lives are miserable thrive on putting people down?
Fucking disgusting.
I am going to pound the next Cardozo EIC in the ass, male or female, come heller or highwater!
@ 66: i'm sorry i called you out on doing something the server did to me as well (re: posting more than once). you're still a dick wad though.
@178: ^^.
Maybe this person is just really abrasive to deal with. Our senior board elections saw an unquestionably qualified person rejected more or less out-of-hand for EIC because she is, for a lack of better words, a horrible gunner and unpleasent person.
"Everyone who is actually [at] Cardozo...should truly be ashamed"
fix't
@ 181 -- No one is looking to undo the previous election. If you had read the post, you would have known that they are looking to see whether the election process introduces inappropriate bias, and if so, whether reforms to the election process could create a more equitable and meritocratic system.
95/107:
how's that chip on your shoulder? raging at the world won't really help your cause, it just makes most of us hope we never have to work with you. simmer down.
184 -- "You know what hurts the most? The lack of respect is what hurts the most...Actually, it's the other thing that hurts the most. But the lack of respect is what hurts the second most."
"I hope that we can also develop a mechanism to evaluate the results of the next election, in terms of gender diversity/equality, before announcing the results so that any problems we see can be address before the results are public. It is problematic to try to correct a problem with gender-biased results after announcing the winners because any changes made to the results could cause embarrassment or the feeling that people are having something taken away from them."
What does that sound like?
87,
Your theory, although in the right spirit, is wrong. If fewer women apply, and higher ranked schools have a 50% or more gender quota, then the women (as a group) are of lower quality relative to male applicants across the board.
@190: i sure hope you weren't one of those tools cutting down women, minorities and everyone else, and then deriding 95 for getting some facts straight & poking some fun at some of the ass bags that congregate here. because that would be hypocritical and rather unbecoming of someone so concerned with her obvious rage and pride.
7 implied that Cardozo is a "respected law school."
38 said that "everybody is special."
Can we get a few more comments on these comments please?
If you don't like it, you kin git out.
- Cardozo LR Board
@194 Right, I sure don't want to further upset someone who's already so worked up about everything in (presumably) her life. I mean, let's be honest, the best way to combat people acting like "ass bags" is to be an even BIGGER ass bag in the hopes that doing so will stop their ass baggery.
I love Acid!
187 Nailed it. Plus Cardozo had a female EiC in 2008. Considering the size of the statistical pool, there's just no evidence of bias.
ken i haz cheezburger?
138
The leadership selects people they will be more comfortable with, as that's part of what makes the group operate well. But I doubt it's malicious in intent--just there's no structure to change the culture, so it stays homogenous. Not so fishy, actually. Pretty normal.
No evidence of bias? Have you read half the comments on here? This isn't just an unconscious bias issue; it's perfectly conscious. Anonymity = all d-bags show their true colors. I can't believe that you people are going to be or are lawyers. Mad world.
199, really classy. To claim that all of the women who ran for the eboard had personality issues says much more about you than it says about them.
195- 38 was right on when she said "everybody is special." Law review journals should focus on making more special and diverse articles, a lot of what you see out there is just analysis of legal doctrine. By promoting people based on their specialness, through personal essays, etc., the law will become more special and diverse. Law review members should not limit their consideration to the who they think is "best" in the typical sense, but should give a large consideration to whether a candidate is a member of a traditionally discriminated group, whether or not the candidate's parents went to college, and whether the candidate "gets" social justice.
Clearly the passed over member here was more special and more deserving than the male who got the position. While "everybody is special" her ability to find diversity problems in a system sets her apart.
I agree that 44, 147, and the other Cardozo Law Review members who are posting snarky comments should acquire some class.
No evidence of bias? Have you read half the comments on here? This isn't just an unconscious bias issue; it's perfectly conscious. Anonymity = all d-bags show their true colors. I can't believe that you people are going to be or are lawyers. Mad world.
HA. What a dum* *ss. Whatever happened to getting a position because you DESERVED it? This is what affirmative action has done to our country - made it about percentages instead of qualification. Boo-hoo, it ain't fair...
By the way, I know this girl and she's such a diva it's not even funny (no, I'm not a guy). Would you want her as Editor in Chief? Seriously!
No evidence of bias? Have you read half the comments on here? This isn't just an unconscious bias issue; it's perfectly conscious. Anonymity = all d-bags show their true colors. I can't believe that you people are going to be or are lawyers. Mad world.
207: You are so full of shit. She is the last person that would be called a diva.
Aaaaand you're racist.
192 - sounds like next year's election is going to be rigged like a fucking sailboat.
If I was a male 1L looking to make a journal at Cardozo, I would preemptively kiss my chances of ever making EIC goodbye.
Can't we all just get along?
07 csl law review sr editor here. note to "gender bias memo writer" - may i never ever have to work with you or meet you at an alumni event. you (gender neutral) are the reason why people hate lawyers (gender neutral).
210 : Sailboat simile = fail. (Almost epic fail.)
The author of this memo, 10 years from now:
"Your valuation of my company is gender-biased!"
"Your Honor, you can't grant this 12(b)(6) motion because the rules of civil procedure are gender-biased!"
"I didn't include citations because if the Bluebook isn't gender-biased, I don't know what is."
Absolutely absurd.
bottom line -- she's right to question what are undesired results. she's wrong to imply that this is prima facie evidence for discrimination (which I don't think she did). searching for corrective procedures is wrong, but holding a meeting to address the issue is not.
No 212, YOU are the reason why people hate lawyers. You're a lame fucktard who still goes to alumni events because you can't hack it in the real world and need to hang on to your law school days because that's probably the only time anyone gave you the time of day, in your big important position of power. Your dick (gender neutral) is SoOoOO big. Man, I'd love to kick your ass in a schoolyard.
This girl needs to get a life-complete loser.
Here's how the feedback loop works, folks.
Step 1: Perceived sexism (maybe real, maybe not)
Step 2: Whiny, malicious response from female
Step 3: Males who did not commit mortal sin of sexism realize they would rather work with men
Step 4: Lather, rinse, repeat
My advice? Marry a kindergarten teacher.
I think that with the exception of the word "malicious" (because I don't think that the girl's complaint is malicious), 218 nailed it.
People just don't like to listen to whining, whether or not they've contributed to the problem themselves and whether or not the whining is warranted.
And it takes the anonymous comments on this blog to figure out why diversity still doesn't exist in the upper echelons of law. I'm sure many of you pay lip service to diversity IRL, but the pervasive sexism here explains exactly why 1) women have reason to complain, and 2) why they still don't get equality regardless of how qualified they are.
If "whining" means pointing out, calmly and reasonably, ways in which a system might be flawed, then I think whining is warranted. "Whining" is the only way that change happens in this world.
But somehow I suspect that the folks leaving comments here are more of the "Keep the change" kind of people.
Oh and what's a "de novo editor?"
It is the "of novo" editor.
You're dumb.
she needs to get laid!
My undergrad is physics. I'm not going to engage in this statistical "analysis," but let me point this out:
Likelihood that the exec. board is all male: 100%
Likelihood that the exec. board was going to be all male the year before: 100%
Likelihood that the exec. board next year is all male: who the hell knows.
Likelihood you're all retarded for trying to apply statistics to this mess: pretty good.
Stop using tools you don't understand to make a political argument about fairness- the two have nothing to do with each other. Either find a smoking gun showing you were cheated out of being the EIC or shut up.
THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe the EICs for almost every single journal at Columbia next year (and there are 14 total) are women.
216 - your anger is amusing. i'm a v5 atty. thx, try again.
216 - go ahead. take the bait.
It's always disappointing to read the comments on ATL and discover the large number of ridiculous asshats who inhabit the legal profession. How courageous you guys are to trash this woman anonymously from the safety of your office computers (assuming that you even have jobs).
Not one of you would ever say to her face anything even close to the vile crap you’re spewing here, so just STFU and get a life.
Is everyone posting on here either a law student or a bitterly unemployed attorney? I go to Cardozo, so that's why it's interesting to ME.
I don't understand why so many educated professionals (and wannabes, for that matter) care about what a bunch of young 20-somethings are doing with their little law 'zine. No wonder the legal profession is imploding...
To all the people who keep on saying she wasn't whining, is being rational, etc.
SHE CALLED FOR FUTURE ELECTION RESULTS TO BE AUDITED FOR DIVERSITY BEFORE THEY'RE FINALIZED.
If that's not completely contrary to the idea of ELECTING board members, I don't know what is.
breasts
This is pure Gen Y "I'm a special snowflake" whining. This is what we get when we tell kids they're unique and winners their whole lives.
this clearly means that there are no hot girls on law review b/c the men would have voted for them even if they're as bitchy as this girl.... way of the world
OMG, there was a 30% chance for something to happen, and it actually happened. LET'S ALL FREAK OUT AND HOLD A SCHOOLWIDE MEETING.
To those of you who do not know this woman but are trashing her: I have no idea who she is either, but this I do know. You don't always get the perfect plaintiff, but that doesn't mean that the allegations aren't real. And you don't encourage people to speak up about injustice when you lambast them for doing so.
The "specialness" thing really kills me. As if 38 wasn't bad enough 204 is really hilarious.
237-
Just because someone is alleging "injustice" doesn't mean that you should automatically give them the benefit of the doubt. To the contrary, if the facts indicate that that person is either misrepresenting the situation or is making unsupported allegations, it's perfectly fine to criticize them for it. See: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/04/24/dole-case-dismissed-due-to-blatant-extortion-by-plaintiffs-lawyers/
It is awesome how women have now taken over the world and managed to turn EVERYTHING to our advantage by pointing to a handful of past sexist problems. Now we get ALL the preferential treatment and ALL the best positions with NONE of the work or intelligence of the men, and the best part is that you weak-willed ball-less freaks have been complicit in the whole thing. How's it feel to be owned, bitches??
Any of you "men" who now rightly feel pathetic at the pure feminine PWNAGE going on all around you, feel free to SUCK IT and GO BACK HOME to your sad, powerless, angry misogynist blogs where you congratulate yourselves for saying things on the internet that make some women angry, as though somehow by upsetting a few feminists you've reclaimed some pale imitation of the power you once had. You lost, you whiny little pricks, and now WE WOMEN RUN TEH WORLDS!
Kiss your futures goodbye.
BANG!!
240, you're just so cute.
yea, i totally agree 242, 240 you're absolutely precious. i am not kidding, i'm not being sarcastic, you just made my day. thank you. <3.
there are also no minorities on Cardozo law review.......................
no Asians, Blacks, Hispanics whatsoever on that list!
to be fair, there are no jews on the executive board.
Nothing brings out the misogynist in me like women.
242 and 243 -- thanks, so are you!
Now bring me my dildo! (No, your tiny shriveled cocks won't do).
None of the cool girls ran for the exec board- and the cool girls who ran for positions got their 1st choices. I think that's fair
"
244 - you clearly know not of what you speak. The current Managing Editor is clearly some sort of minority judging by his appearance and impossible to pronounce name.
Aren't there women on the Law review board (if not in executive positions)?
If they didn't vote for female candidates does that make them "traitors"?
If they voted for them because they were women is that appropriate?
What if the male candidates simply had better resumes ... two years in a row?
What if the EIC candidate was disliked across the board?
What if the minority group students simply didn't have the GPAs to get on Law Review or most other journals (average African American LSAT score = low 140s)?
What if it was all based on a misplaced sense of entitlement?
"
"Of the thirty-seven Vol. 30 staffers, sixteen (43%) are women and twenty-one (57%) are men. The results of the blind Note-selection process mirror these statistics: of the sixteen Notes selected for publication in Vol. 31, seven (44%) were authored by female staffers and nine (56%) were authored by male staffers. Statistics are not available by which I could objectively assess the quality of staffers' C&Sing work. However, the Note publication rates suggest that, when blind judging is applied, female staffers perform as well as male staffers."
That's not "as well as". That shows males with a decided advantage.
More relevant: does Cardoza have various levels of honors? At my school, it may be true that there's a fairly equal mix of men and women at the top 15% level (enough brights to get LR); but the vast majority of the more select honors go to men. This is not coincidence. In many things men are at the tails of the distribution. There are more male criminals and more male geniuses.
People should stop meddling with this private group.
Just another story about a majority (women) shamelessly trying to oppress, dispossess, and keep down a minority (men). Right, 240?
255, saying "shamelessly" implies we ought to feel shame for asserting our rightful place as superior to men. You little children have rolled over and allowed us to trample all over you. Therefore, we win. Don't argue, it's in the Bible.
Not, not your silly little man-Bible. The REAL Bible.
lamest memo ever
I am woman - hear me [nag and complain to make sure that everyone around me is as miserable as I am]!
256, I hope you think the same way about racial and sexual minorities.
As the nth commentator (who is not a law student, does not go to YU, but is probably more well informed than those commentators from the law review about the nature of the structure of the school and the internal controversies inside of it).
I know people in various law schools. I've met people in Cardozo. I know people in YU's administration- including subaffliates like REITS. I know graduates from the undergraduate instutions as well- and know what thier life choices have turned out to be. The reason: I'm a random orthodox Jewish undergraduate at a Universtiy where there is a close to nil (won't say which) orthodox Jewish population. So I looked around for connections elsewhere. Interesting times.
The institution YU is terrified of a lawsuit from their graduate schools, especially the graduate schools that have growing Non-Jewish and Non-Orthodox Populations. YU already lost a major suit (See Sara Levin et al v Yeshiva University). This could potentially blow up in thier faces.
The institution YU, from its very long history- never was set up to deal with "POMO" problems. The school was essentially created to be an Orthodox version of Brandeis. Kol Tuv-except now the undergraduate newspaper for the men's college once features an interview with the REITS affliate versus the dean of the College about the approriateness of studying some of the liberal arts (particualrly art history, among others). The women's college has reported on Title IV violations- without realizing they are federal violations that would cause massive fines, as well as ban the school from the NCAA. Further, beforethe works of New Voices got stripped from the web- there were open reports of healthcare across both campuses lacking what is standard in non-religious institutions: Sexual healthcare. Certain books and classes will never be offered in either school- and the new Tolerance Club actually comes under fire for hosting lectures on what it means to be tolerant.
In context- Cardozo is terrifying. It is relatively new in the world of Law Schools- and its rankings are slowly rising. It exists in a bubble of an institution which is slowly adapting to modern life. Law in theory should be somewhat close to the study of Talmud. In practice- not there at all. Until YU can figure out a cohesive policy and culture about education (And not leave some of thier graduate programs in frum land, create a MRS. program, create some graduate programs that leave open libalities to culture clashes with other programs for money and prestige reasons) students in the right program will always be able to pull this stunt, regardless of whether it is true or not that there is gender bias (I can't fully comment on that-that is difficult to say without sitting down and being there)
260 - It is clear that you're not a law student. I think all of us, regardless of gender, can agree that your three paragraphs of incoherent blabbering was not only hard to read, but totally irrelevant and without a point. Stop blogging on sites you dont have the requisite education for.
No- but clearly nor are you- because this a comment thread- not a blog.
And I was commenting on YU's institutional problems- which include Cardozo. It's actually irrellevant whether there is gender bias- all that matters is perception of it- which is why Cardozo is holding meetings.
YU is Cardozo's greatest liability. The law school could really take off if it weren't tied down by the archaic, oppressive, rigid demands and expectations of its parent university.
Also, kosher pizza sucks.
When I was at the then future bottom tier law school known as Michigan, the jewish students were really revving their power up.
Their number two demand, after no Friday night events ever never, was goat cheese pizza at every event.
Goat cheese pizza is nasty as all hell and just having it on the same table as real pizza emits a terrible smell that ruins the rest of the pizzas.
If YU demands goat cheese pizza, and this woman getting her way will mean no more goat cheese pizza ever, then you go, sister!
As to her stats, the sample size is too small to tell anything. I took all my math classes midday, including all my stats courses, so I can at least recall that.
they publish 6 volumes per year!? brutal.
Just a quick note: the Arts and Entertainment Law Journal at Cardozo is highly-ranked in intellectual property. It is in some ways about as prestigious as the Law Review, depending on the field a student intends to enter. The Editor-in-Chief and Executive Editor have both been women at least the past two years, as is the newly-elected pair. These are the top two positions.
I’m not going to draw any conclusions for you all - you’re pretty good at taking basic data and making some fairly stretched conclusions all by yourselves. Just thought this additional information might be interesting to add to the discussion.
just wanted to add that, despite the commenters who keep saying that YU or the law school administration called this upcoming meeting, it actually appears from the post that the law review members called the meeting.
I am on the Cardozo law review, and have been elected to this years E board. I am male and acknowledge that the selection process this year, as in past years, is extremely gender bias. I know that a female was more amply qualified for my position, but as a male I had the upper hand. I applied for the position not thinking I would even be given a chance, especially given the strength of the lady who was also applying for my same position. I wanted to talk to this lady but did not want to cause an uproar, and moreover I was more than happy to accept the position offered to me.
Cardozo is a jewish school, so its student makeup is highly biased toward jewish students, and the Jewish philosphy of treating woman as second class citizens is surely seen in the law review office. Additionally, the law profession is highly biased towards woman.
I know for a fact that a woman was more amply qualified for the position I got, and I know that the people choosing these candidates had males as the primary choice in the back of thier minds.
I know past law review members who have since graduated, and they recomended I apply for the position I sought. When i told them that there was someone else more amply qualified than me applying for the same position, the first question they ask was, "is she a girl?" Using the word girl was demeaning enough, but the simply asking that question offended me. I had a little more faith that the law review would be comprised of qualified members, and not simply members choosen because of gender.
In response to all the stupid comments refering to woman as inferior, or as having smaller brains, is simply rude and insulting. Rather than make these generalizations about a school you know nothing about, please leave the intelligent comments to those who actually particpate in the law review.
So my main point is that Cardozo law review does indeed discriminate against woman, there is nothing we can do about it, but I am glad that someone actually took it upon themselves to inform the public. I know that this will jeopardize the good name of our law review, but its the truth, and since nothing can be done internally, at least this email could bring the problem some national attention, and bring about a possible resolution to the problem facing many law reviews, not just Cardozo.
I dont think having a penus should be a qualification for get on Cardozo's law review, but it obviously helps and quasi-ensures a high level position.
@268, you're obvi a fake poster. you can't even spell penis properly!
if you are a real poster, can you prove it somehow?
268: if you're really from Cardozo and on the E Board, tell me what day the elections were on this year.
Sincerely, actual E Board member
Did you know...
In last year's election, the results of which were used as evidence of gender bias by the memo writer, ZERO females ran for EIC or ME, and 2 (of 7) ran for EE. Those are facts, not stats.
I don't consider myself "biased" against women, but I think it is legitimate to acknowledge that they are better than men at some things (i.e. cooking, cleaning, birthing etc.) and worse than men at other things (i.e. thinking, writing, leading etc.). This is not to say that one is better than the other - only that they are different.
@272: right. and i don't consider myself a "racist" - black people are just 'better' at hard labor and music-making, so they make for good slaves and hip hop artists. white people are just better at using their brains and dicking people over, so they should get to rule the world.
Re: comment 268. just b/c i didnt use spell check doesnt mean Im not on LR. u guys r too funny
274: so then answer the question. what date were the elections on?
273: While what you're saying might offend some people, it still happens to be objectively true and doesn't mean you are necessarily a racist - do think scrawny pale white people are really better at hard labor than buff 6 foot tall blacks? Do you really think black people as a whole are really that intelligent? Can you name a single invention or innovation that has ever come out of Africa other than AIDs?
I believe everyone should be treated equally but that doesn't mean there aren't inherent ingrained differences differences between the genders and races
Elie, please remove #273. I'm white and find that comment extremely inappropriate and offensive.
thx.
273 was NOT meant to endorse racist views. it was just meant to point out that the author of 272 is a bigot. moreover, why should elie remove 273 but not all the other shit that's been said about women?
Dear 209:
You say "207: You are so full of shit. She is the last person that would be called a diva.
Aaaaand you're racist."
Well, first, I'm sorry - you must be her! And yes, you are a diva. Only a diva would write such a ridiculously whiny email to ATL.
Second, everyone knows that affirmative action is a highly-debated issue. The question is: at this point in time, is it actually helpful, or detrimental? It definitely was needed in our country when it was established.
Just because a person thinks it is not helpful at this point in time, does not make them racist. You should know that, especially if you're planning to practice law.
Posted by guest
Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:17 PM
Dear 209:
You say "207: You are so full of shit. She is the last person that would be called a diva.
Aaaaand you're racist."
Well, first, I'm sorry - you must be her! And yes, you are a diva. Only a diva would write such a ridiculously whiny email to ATL.
Second, everyone knows that affirmative action is a highly-debated issue. The question is: at this point in time, is it actually helpful, or detrimental? It definitely was needed in our country when it was established.
Just because a person thinks it is not helpful at this point in time, does not make them racist. You should know that, especially if you're planning to practice law.
JUST TO CLARIFY:
the person who emailed this memo to ATL is NOT the person who wrote the memo.
the memo was meant to be a completely internal memo.
personally i suspect it was someone from moot court who sent it in, and not someone from law review, but regardless, whoever sent this in is probably too much of a coward to discuss it and debate it in a forum that won't resort to ad hominem arguments...
if you did submit this memo, i simply ask that you explain why you did it (here, if you're too embarrassed to fess up at this point). you owe us - be it your fellow journal mates, or your fellow school mates - at least that decency.
Dear 281,
Because it's funny.
Sincerely,
X
218,
I am not a member of moot court but I am a member of a journal at Cardozo. Your finger pointing is so absurd that I felt the need to respond. You correctly pointed out that the memo was internal. The fact that it was leaked means it was someone in your group who let the e-mail out. Dont blame other journals or moot court because you guys have a problem. That's just pathetic and it's the reason why everyone thinks people like you on law review are tools.
283,
Your inability to read through an entire paragraph is probably what cost you a spot on Law Review. I said " you owe us - be it your fellow journal mates, or your fellow school mates - at least that decency." Meaning, this applies to ANY student at cardozo who was enough of a sell out to leak this to ATL rather than keep the email they received to themselves.
Yeah seriously 281,
We're the ones with the problem?? It's one thing for a tool on Law Review to send an email to a tool on another "journal" (let's be real here), and it's quite another thing for that tool (you) to then send the email to Above the Law! You are not just a person who reads ATL or comments on it out of sheer boredom, you are THE TOOL who actually sends stories to ATL! Honestly, go kill yourself. You are THAT lame.
If you won't identify yourself, at least answer me this:
Do you live in Murray Hill?
284, your post doesn't make any sense. Way to represent Cardozo LR.
285, calm down there, buddy. I think it was well worth it, considering the enjoyment I got out of seeing everyone so worked up. The only reason you're so huffy is because it's driving you nuts that you don't know who I am. And no, I'm not going to play 20 questions with you.
And why don't the two of you identify yourselves if you're going to talk so tough... or at least give me your initials if you're worried about it showing up on google. I'll figure it out.
285 here. I don't understand what you mean by "talk so tough". I merely suggested that you take your own life, since the only purpose it seems is to serve is as an example of what a complete lack of character looks like.
The reason I'm "huffy" is because you made a public spectacle out of an innocent, good faith email that was intended to stay private. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is one thing, but you went way too far. What you did was straight-up wrong and you did it to someone who, I will venture a guess, never did anything to you.
But you're too ignorant and straight-up stupid to realize that you are not in high school anymore. And you're not in Great Neck or wherever the fuck you hail from.
And look who the anonymity is getting to now...
I'm not going to play games either. If you'd like to meet, face to face, I'm all for it. Otherwise, I don't see what purpose it would serve.
Wow... An election in which the sheep all voted for the cool kids. Obviously she doesn't remember junior high, or high school, etc. It was an election, how can you get mad at people for voting? Sounds just like the republicans, democracy is ok until you lose.
Wow... An election in which the sheep all voted for the cool kids. Obviously she doesn't remember junior high, or high school, etc. It was an election, how can you get mad at people for voting? Sounds just like the democrats, democracy will be ok until they lose again.
If I were you, I'd really qualify "cool kids" as I seriously doubt "cool kids" are winning any Law Review elections. But that's neither here nor there. We can argue about whether this process should even be called an election. Democracy doesn't work by a bunch of people sitting in a room, making decisions. At least, not in theory.
But I'm really not discussing the underlying substantive issue with YOU on ABOVE THE LAW. If you had something to say, you should have said it before you destroyed any legitimacy you could have faked.
On second thought, it doesn't appear that 289/290 is the leaker. So the second paragraph of my comment was misdirected.
But the world will soon know,
the leaker is Mike Hunt.
292:
You obviously don't even go to Cardozo. I've never seen Mike Hunt at school, and you certainly haven't either. In fact, I don't think anybody has seen Mike Hunt at Cardozo. Mike Hunt is a bit of a recluse.
Trust me, Mike Hunt attends Cardozo. Mike Hunt has been in the lobby, in the library, in the faculty lounge, just about everywhere. Oh and Mike Hunt fucked your mom.
293 & 294: Mike Hunt and I are really close so I don't appreciate you guys talking like this. Mike Hunt could be listening right now!
You got it, 288. Meet me out front of Twelfth Street Books today at noon.
Hi everyone,
Just a quick reminder to visit the relocated Twelfth Street Books (now Atlantic Books) at 179 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
Best regards,
Guest
dude,
i'm not 288, but why would 288 ever wanna meet you. it's obvious you'll just snap her photo and sell out her identity.
288, you're my bitch
300th!!!
288 here. a bitch, but certainly not yours. you may have forgotten for a moment that i'm smarter than you. well consider this a friendly reminder.
to prove that it's actually you that i will be meeting, you first have to forward to an email address the email that you sent to above the law, time-stamped and all. if you're down, let me know and i'll give you the email address. and if i suspect you've custom time-stamped it, no deal.
301, why the hell would i give you a paper trail? Honestly, I don't even have any reason for meeting you... you're the one who wanted to talk to me.
Part of the gender bias in elected leadership positions is that men are, on average, taller, and have deeper voices. Thus they seem more "authoritative." This is compounded by stereotypes of what a leader looks like. Men and women BOTH have to look beyond that to overcome this issue - - it is not just men with a gender bias problem.
(I am a woman, by the way.)
Part of the gender bias in elected leadership positions is that men are, on average, taller, and have deeper voices. Thus they seem more "authoritative." This is compounded by stereotypes of what a leader looks like. Men and women BOTH have to look beyond that to overcome this issue - - it is not just men with a gender bias problem.
(I am a woman, by the way.)