"straights">

first

Why is it that only Michigan listserv emails seem to get forwarded to ATL? This stuff flares up all the time at other schools but we refrain from selling our fellow students out.

idiot.

the 1L probably just wanted some litigation experience. this is way better than doing a clinic!

Geeze, just because Michigan is #6 in the new USNWR, it doesn't mean the students should start acting like it. Leave this kind of douchery for Columbia and Chicago.

7: awwwww yeah, SIXIGAN!

Elie didn't you ever see the Money For Nothing video? It's "Dire Straits"

I heard this was Top101L after his summer offer got rescinded

"straights"? Seriously? Though I guess I can give Elie a pass since he's clearly not straight.

Best lawopen response:

I think that the general distaste some people get when they find out that someone filed a FOIA request regarding SFF funding stems from their feeling that someone who does so is treating SFF funding as an entitlement, rather than a privilege.

For me, though, the troubling thing is not that (because I have no idea what motivated the request), but that a person would choose to engage in that tactic (an FOIA notice), which may require the SFF board to retain counsel and spend time and money that could otherwise be spent on things more productive (for them personally, or for the organization as a whole).

Perhaps I'm naive to think that part of the benefit of Michigan Law is that, in matters like this, we would treat things internally and look out for one another, especially as a default rule. The SFF board isn't some unapproachable agency of the state. It is made up of fellow students who are, surely, trying to do the right thing.

Rather than invoking the federal freedom of information act, why not run for the SFF board? Or lobby the board to make changes to make the funding process more fair the next time around?

There is no question that the current economic situation created a difficult situation for the SFF board, and perhaps the way in which SFF grants were given in the past doesn't fit well with the current climate. But the way to solve that problem is not to engage in legal tactics against other members of the law school community (at least not first, or even second or third), but to try to work internally to make the SFF process better in the future.

Perhaps SFF should prefer students who are committed to not doing OCI. Perhaps the application process is too intrusive for a program that can no longer fund a high percentage of applicants. Whatever the case is, it seems to me a shame that the answer isn't to work together to solve the problems in the future, rather than to utilize a legal tool against fellow classmates who are trying to do the right thing.

I understand that an FOIA request is hardly filing a lawsuit, or an accusation of wrongdoing. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth, at least in the absence of information that the SFF Board is completely unwilling to listen to suggestions and make changes to the way they operate.

I'm proud to have donated to SFF, I hope people will continue to, and I hope the way forward is to have a real dialogue that lets SFF fix their system (if it is broken) in the future without resorting to tactics that require the board to spend time with counsel and doing legal research on the freedom of information laws.

Perhaps I'm naive to think we would all want to keep the matter internal, and free of FOIA requests, but I don't think I'm naive to think that's the way it should be.

Elie,

As usual, you've completely misconstrued what happened. Congratulations on yet another epic fail.

Nothing wrong with the request. FOIA is only fine when the ACLU is suing for interrogation techniques that we use on terrorists?! If I am entitled to know who got funding let me know and don't give me a holier-than-thou I can't beleive a U-Mich student would want information they are entitled to rant.

this is what happens when you rely on charities instead of getting a firm job. and before you all call me an asshole, i donated $500 this week to sff as part of DADP.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Man I loved that Money for Nothing Video. Especially when "she sticks it in the camera". Many tube socks bit the dust on that one.

13 - Care to enlighten us? It seems straightforward to me.

(I'm not at Michigan though.)

14 - i agree with you. whats the bfd here?

WTF? Do Michigan 1Ls really have to apply for public interest funding? Terrible.

Always interesting to see how scared people get of the truth becoming public...what do all you public interest folks have to hide? Something about who/why/how the process worked/worked for?

No, I don't care to enlighten you because it's none of ATL's business. ATL sensationalizing a story involving an unfortunate situation? I am glad I picked on Elie-types in high school.

I wonder if the public interest people just gave the money to their friends.

Can we end the charade that Michigan is a top 10 school?

12 = author of the 'Best lawopen response'

15, you have $500 to donate and you are a 1L? What do you have to be nervous about? You are obviously flush with cash.

Also agree that I don't see the problem.

My question is why the organization doesn't publish that information in the first place?

What's the big deal.

13 - care to SHOW us the real story?

nervous T-10 1L: you're only making 500/day? is your firm in mexico or what?

I know Oregon destroyed Michigan 39-7 in football at the little Big House, but now I believe Oregon Law School > Michigan Law School.

What an f'in loser. As a tax attorney who works with charities I can assure you that this request will cost some other UM students their stipend. That's right, at $350 an hour (hey that is a lot for Portland), that is going to run up some duckets.

best lawopen response (from the OP)

just to compare: when someone applies to Michigan Law and is rejected and then whines that they didn't get accepted in spite of having better "numbers" than other students who WERE accepted, most students at the school would argue that Michigan looks at the whole candidate, not just their numbers, which is why we generally have a better student body than many of other law schools (in my estimation). so to argue that your numbers were better is immature and ignorant, because there is more to an application than your numbers.

similarly, when someone is upset that he/she did not get SFF money because they weighted the factors inappropriately, it seems a little bratty. filing a FOIA request makes it even more ridiculous because it likely creates more work for the students who VOLUNTEER to take on this huge responsibility - work that they now have to do two weeks before finals.

and sure, maybe you requested the info from them directly, but don't you think they have an interest in trying to protect the privacy of all the other students at the law school who likely do not want anyone at the law school to know personal info about them unless they choose to share it?

all this FOIA does is encourage the students who might volunteer to run SFF to not do it or to think twice. so programs like the SFF auction or even the granting of SFF funds will not run as smoothly or as well because fewer students want to take the risk that they will have to deal with this type of problem that will put them against their fellow classmates. this is not in the collegial spirit of MLaw.

lots of people don't get funding every year, but this year it must have been especially difficult considering the economy. perhaps taking that into consideration, students should not whine when they don't get money, but instead search for funding elsewhere. everything is tough these days - just be glad you only have to survive for one more summer before you come back to school and your precious loans. you have two years to figure job stuff out. some people have to pay back their loans in 6 months and have no clue how to do that.

so my point: grow up! whoever this 1L is who is filing this FOIA should think about how he/she is affecting other students at the school and whether your reasons are really legit. do you deserve the money more than someone else? how do you know? did someone else deserve to be a student at the law school more than you? it's impossible to say and filing a FOIA isn't going to make it more clear. it just makes you seem like a really obnoxious and ungrateful person. you're at a good law school, the economy will straighten itself out. in the meantime, stop taking out your anger on other law students and start searching for summer funding.

13 = 21 = the douchebag who submitted the FOIA request

22- don't bitch about ATL getting the story wrong if you aren't willing to explain.

The SFF group does a great job.

The person filing the FOIA request was seeking answers to questions that he had been asking for months.

It is unfortunate that they could not resolve what will eventually prove to be a misunderstanding.

It is more unfortunate that ATL sensationalizes it. But what do you expect from a website that continually pokes fun and makes light of people losing their jobs?

Nervous.... its asshole comments like that one that make me consider outing you again.

33 - "a website that continually pokes fun and makes light of people losing their jobs"

No. ATL reports on layoffs, but it doesn't make light of them. In fact, ATL usually condemns the greedy firms who are doing the layoffs.

Did he ask the SFF to give him that information and did they refuse? If he did, and they did, then why isn't the outrage directed at the SFF? If it's public information, it's public information. They have no right to decide who should have access to it and who shouldn't.

If he didn't give them an opportunity to disclose before filing the request, then that's a different story.

13 - care to SHOW us the real story?

34: i was never outted. nobody knows who i am. not even in abcd. go ahead and 'out' me.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

11 - Elie is straight (and married). Lat is the gay one. Kash is straight (and single).

are UMich law students/applicants the most self-entitled annoying people on the planet?

ATL: Did you bother to confirm that there was in fact a FOIA request filed before writing this post? Nowhere in your post above is this confirmed, or is there any indication that you actually looked into the matter beyond copying and pasting some e-mails that were sent to you. Learn to do some reporting before you start writing.

Also, 19: Yes, it's true and it's embarrassing. A new program was put in place this year to guaranteeing a measly $5k to people doing public interest during their 2L summers, but that doesn't help 1L's or prior 2L classes.

ATL: Did you bother to confirm that there was in fact a FOIA request filed before writing this post? Nowhere in your post above is this confirmed, or is there any indication that you actually looked into the matter beyond copying and pasting some e-mails that were sent to you. Learn to do some reporting before you start writing.

Also, 19: Yes, it's true and it's embarrassing. A new program was put in place this year to guaranteeing a measly $5k to people doing public interest during their 2L summers, but that doesn't help 1L's or prior 2L classes.

30: Sorry, once I realized that the author was one of those dumbasses who doesn't use capital letters, I stopped reading.

Capital letters serve an important purpose in writing. Why is that so hard to understand?

It's one thing to make minor grammar mistakes; it's another to eschew basic writing principles.

40: its unclear, but we do know that they have lower LSAT/GPA combos that any other top 10 school, rendering them inferior in every possible way.

41 - This is a blog, not a newspaper. Don't expect reporting. If you get reporting, it is icing on the cake.

A FOIA request seems an honest step. Why bitch and moan about having to give someone information they may be legally entitled to? So 25 % of students get rejected each year from funding; does that make it okay to rip the guy for seeking the info?

As as for the comments that other students will lose their funding because someone has to pay a lawyer to review things...that's BS. It's an operating cost. Nobody should avoid exercising their (statutory) rights because it costs money, esp. UMich students who will earn big $$$ doing the exact same thing at BIGLAW in a year or two when their deferrals are up.

And if a FOIA is what it takes to prompt more transparency, then good.

(and it isn't really lost student money...just hire a recently laid-off UMich fourth-year associate to do the work for free as he collects unemployment)

13: how did Elie misconstrue the story at all? Seems pretty straightforward. At least you didn't blame it on the black kids this time, although who knows what you're going to do when you get the list?

Michigan Law is a state institution? Michigan SFF is run with state dollars right? FOIA is meant to make sure that state institutions and state funded agencies perform their tasks within the confines of the law...that state resources are not subject to shady backroom horse-trading. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. The student didn't sue anyone. He just requested information in line with a state approved procedure to seek information to confirm everything done in doling out the resources was kosher. What is so wrong with that? If the group that hands out this money didn't do anything wrong then they have nothing to fear.

"... because it likely creates more work for the students who VOLUNTEER to take on this huge responsibility - work that they now have to do two weeks before finals."

And that's what makes it a brilliant move. Law school is a big competition. If you can distract your enemies with frivolous FOIA requests, you can beat more of them and get up the curve. A great tactic by FOIA-man. I salute him.

Wow, when TOP SIX schools like Michigan are getting hit, we know it's bad out there.

A lot of the personal info would be exempt from a FOIA request anyway, as would any documents relating to a group's decisionmaking

Why FOIA when there is an obvious promissory estoppel action?

"but don't you think they have an interest in trying to protect the privacy of all the other students at the law school who likely do not want anyone at the law school to know personal info about them unless they choose to share it?"

This seems to miss the point. By submitting the information to a group that is subject to FOIA, the students gave up any right to privacy. If they didn't want other students to know, then they shouldn't have submitted it. Or they should have gone to a private school.

And I still don't get what is so private about the information? He's not asking for their social security numbers is he? It sounds like all the guy wants to know is - John Smith, 10k. Is John Smith really afraid of his fellow students finding that out?

39, Elie may be married, but he's probably not straight. Just sayin'....

Why FOIA when there is an obvious promissory estoppel action?

What no one seems to have mentioned is what is the effing point of getting this information? What are you going to do with it? You didn't make the cut. Deal with it. Cry to mommy. If he's that big of a douche to request the info in the first place, you better believe he's going to do something even douchey-er once he gets it.

Get your facts before you fly off the handle. Consider, e.g., this lawopen post:

My understanding based on the "word on the street" is that there seems to be a discrepancy (of approximately $90K) b/w the funds collected and funds disbursed and that SFF/school administration was not very forthcoming w/r/t why that is so.

So if the "word on the street" is right, then FOIA does not seem SO bad. Then again, much like the SEC, I take no position on the issue.

Why is the information private in the first place? My school had a similar program and all of the recipients were always announced.

56 - so you're a db if you want information? Information you may be legally entitled to? Did you work for the Bush administration? Are you at DOJ fearing the revival of justice?

57--are you seriously bluebooking your ATL comments?

Comment removed by moderator.

Comment removed by moderator.

This strikes me as a perfectly appropriate action considering the litigious culture of American society. Until we change the overly litigious fabric of our legal culture (on which many of us depend for our salaries btw), I see nothing wrong at all with taking that cultural framework inside the halls of the very institutions that teach it.

I heard layoffs at Kirkland, can someone confirm?

@59. Yes. Yes, you are a douche if you want information... when the only reason you want that information is to harass good people trying to do good work. Don't confuse your sense of entitlement to "information you may be legally entitled to" with "I am an entitled douche bag who will cry if I don't get what I want." Yes, You are a douche. No, I don't think you are the actual person who made this request. Yes, you are as much of a douche as the person who did.

Michigan is a better school than Penn.

And just to be clear...

Virginia is a better school than Penn. Berkeley is a better school than Penn.

GULC is a better school than Penn.

59 - no you are not a DB for wanting information. For example I wanted a copy of Napolitano's "I hate conservatives and veterans because they scare me" memo. People are entitled to things like that. This DB has absolutely no use what ever for this information. Even if DB gets the names there is no way to verify their respective qualifications to determine if DB shouldn have gotten funding anyway. This FOIA request is just to harass them for not picking DB.

GOOD.... you should be able to see where the money is going...as obama said the government should be more transparent and so should every business profit and non for profif that operates in the US....deception is the reason for the bad economy way to go kid...Use the lw to make it hard for people to hide that charity they are working for...god know all the money probably went to the god damn gays and lesbians who never stop fucking whining...

GOOD.... you should be able to see where the money is going...as obama said the government should be more transparent and so should every business profit and non for profif that operates in the US....deception is the reason for the bad economy way to go kid...Use the lw to make it hard for people to hide that charity they are working for...god know all the money probably went to the god damn gays and lesbians who never stop fucking whining...

FOIA only applies to federal agencies, not state funded institutions. States have their own open records laws.

how did the tipster post a lawopen email on ATL before it even showed up in my email?

how did the tipster post a lawopen email on ATL before it even showed up in my email?

70,
I don't think we should use the FOIA.....what about section 90?

Facts are a little off:

1) Nobody seems to know what information this person asked for -- the report that he asked for names of recipients is speculation, unless your tipster is the jackass who filed the request. He might have some reason to ask for records of funds received and disbursed, but it's unlikely and senseless that he would have any reason to get, or would get, names of people selected.

2) The actual award rate for last year (the final year in which SFF also took applications from 2Ls) was just under 2/3 -- not even close to 3/4. This year, the number of 1Ls that received grants is SLIGHTLY HIGHER than last year. Despite a big decline in revenue due to pain all around ITE, the program gave modestly larger grants to MORE 1Ls. The lower award rate this year is mainly due to a HUGE increase in the number of applications (obviously due to far fewer people expecting paying jobs ITE).

People can quibble if they want about whether SFF should have given smaller grants to more people (or bigger ones to fewer), or whatever. But there is nothing unusual about this year's process other than the fact that some self-indulgent litigious jerk decided to pull this FOIA stunt. This "story" -- such as it is -- is about him or her, not about the school or the program.

The people who run SFF do a huge amount of work FOR FREE to support as many 1Ls as they can who are committed to public interest. And the school itself now GUARANTEES summer funding for ALL 2Ls working in public interest, and still awards Dean's Fellowships to selected 2Ls on top of the guarantee. It's especially annoying that the person who did this chose to do it this year, when Michigan's summer funding for PI work is better than it has ever been (and far better than it is at most schools).

70 is right, this FOIA is useless because FOIA only works for federal agencies. Maybe its a good thing this asshat didn't get funding. Generally it is important to understand that law before attempting to use it to be a complete d-bag.

Selabsorbed enough to have gone to MI, the only law school in MI with a 60% out of state enrollment.

Douchebags.

Michigan FOIA - http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17337_18160-51242--,00.html

Michigan FOIA - http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17337_18160-51242--,00.html

74: how is the sff board treating you?

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

ps - penn gives an automatic 4k to any student who does public interest their first summer. michigan is pretty weak compared to peer schools.

What's the problem with a FOIA request? If the money is disproportionately going to politicians kids or donors kids or being pocketed as overhead expenses, isn't that worth looking into? An army of citizens empowered by FOIA is supposed to deter that type of stuff.

Michigan's law school is going to hell, along with Michigan's economy.

#74:

Sounds like you're on SFF, and if so, I appreciate all you do. But no, our PI funding is not better than at most schools - at least not our peer institutions.

Quite simply, I'm paying as much to be here as someone at any other T14 school. And at most other T14 schools, 1Ls are guaranteed grants for summer PI work. Why aren't we guaranteed this? Is it because we're a public school? If so, why am I paying as much as I am? The way I see it, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to charge this much, you have to give us as much as anyone else. If you're not going to guarantee us 1L summer funding, lower our tuition.

This isn't SFF's fault, but the Law School's, so please don't take this as blaming you. Regardless, if we really want to move up in the rankings, we can't half-ass important things like a true commitment to public service.

Go Blue!

I assume the guy was at least smart enough to file the request under Michigan's FOIA-equivalent, and ATL is just being general in talking about FOIA, but who knows...

I don't see how this can possibly harm the charitable organizations other students are working at, and I doubt that was his motive. He probably feels that he was more qualified than other students who got funding and want to "out" the Michigan on this point. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, if he is right it might persuade Michigan to change the way it distributes funding in the future for the better.

I love how litigious law students are with everything outside of law school (throw a giant party next door to some 1L's during the Spring and see if you don't have one of them showing up within an hour talking about nuisance...) but how pissy they get when anything gets directed AT them.

Regardless, Anne Arbor is a whore, and you're all getting Dick Rod in the end.

Enjoy Greg Paulus being your new QB. Your tears will be like sweet sweet candy this fall.

~OSU frat stud

61: you're a douchebag

82: I go to a T6 and we get a no questions asked 6k loan (3k grant, 3k loan) if we do public interest. Sorry about your school.

MLaw is better than this. It IS collegial. I mean c'mon, I know it's been a few years since we've been SIXIGAN, but let's get it together here.

It's like that quote from Spiderman, "with minimal and exceedingly arbitrary increases in fundamentally flawed school rankings, comes great responsibility."

T101L: how many kids in abcd got SA's this year? you're not as anonymous as you think

i would bet $100 that every single post here defending the douchebag kid was written by the douchebag kid furiously refreshing this page.

I don't think every T14 gives full PI funding. I know people from Penn and Columbia who weren't on 1L summer funding. Maybe there should be a post on this, seems like solid info to 0Ls.

MichiganTipster, please take his name out of your comments. That's incredibly disrespectful. Agree with what he did or not, he made himself known to the law school community, not to abovethelaw.

OK, here's the deal:

Michigan does not guarantee summer funding to 1Ls doing unpaid public service work. If they did, none of these arguments would be relevant.

This is a failure by THE SCHOOL to properly support their students who are doing public service. Instead of stepping up and taking responsibility for the fact that there are almost 100 1Ls with no source of money for the summer, the administration has remained completely silent and let the students and the SFF Board fight among themselves.

The Law School needs to make a public statement about whether they are going to take responsibility and increase funding. It's stupid to make a bunch of students raise and administer money for other students.

This entire debate would not be happening if Michigan just provided summer funding to 1Ls. They have the endowment. They just haven't done it yet - and they should.

First quoted tipster needs an English lesson... less people at firms...

So glad I unsubscribed from lawopen this semester.

Is there any law school in the country that has more douchebags per capita than Michigan?

i like how he's trying to put reason into stupidity. What a d-bag.

Has there ever been a time that the Freedom of Information Act accomplished anything other than waste a bunch of people's time and money? I tried to find an example of when this law did something not worthless on Wikipedia and found the following:

Records at the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) show Barbara Schwarz, a citizen of Germany, has made more requests under the FOIA than any other person since it became law in 1966. For more than ten years Schwarz has made repeated requests with many federal departments and agencies for public records the government says don't exist.

Schwarz believes, and her requests are aimed to prove, that rather than having been born in Germany her actual birth was around 1956 inside a secret government submarine base called Chattanooga under the Great Salt Lake. She further believes herself to be daughter of Church of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard. Further saying that she was then kidnapped, taken to Germany, and given a false identity including a German birth certificate which was doctored to conceal her actual birth in Utah.

93 = the kid.

there is no "debate." all there is is harsh criticism for a kid who made a douchebag move.

UM didn't have enough money, so they portion it out as they see fit. kids who didn't get the money should have gone to a school that offers money if they really wanted it.
anyway, what's 4-5k in contrast to a 150k education?

Wow, it wouldn't have occured to me to complain about not being chosen for a grant (aka free money) ---what arrogance!

If this person feels SFF needs various policies changed, then said person should join SFF, volunteer their own precious hours and work to make change happen. It's so easy to stand on the outside and complain. Rather fits the self-absorbed "poor me" attitude so apparent in our society.

I know how many endless hours members spend volunteering their time to SFF. They're a very dedicated, selfless group.

It's a shame an arrogant self-serving student has chosen to grand-stand a private complaint (i.e. not being chosen for free money) and cause embarrassment to UMich Law, SFF & its members.

I wonder at motive of whichever tipster felt it their business to publicize a private complaint. What do they stand to gain?

Susan

I go to a law school ranked roughly 50 spots below UM's rank, but have a Biglaw job (for now) waiting for me. This comment section exchange gives me so much hope that I will he able to outperform all of the total loser ass clowns at schools like UM. What a bunch of losers.

"UM didn't have enough money."

NOT true. They have the money, they just don't make funding students a priority. Look up the endowment.

I may go to Villanova, but at least I go to school with people who aren't complete douches like this tool. Small sacrifice if you ask me.

Have fun making everyone hate you for the rest of your career.

Instead of a FOIA request, I wonder why the student in question didn't consider bringing a reliance (ie promissory estoppel) claim against the SFF board. It seems pretty clear that he took certain actions in reliance on SFF's statements and hence might be able to recover under Section 90 of the Restatement. Thoughts?

@100 - Why are you being such a raving asshole today?

101: LOL @ your T2 school

Right on, 104.

96:

Yes, they're called Penn, Columbia and Harvard.

#79, 82, 93:

1) If I was on the board I would not comment about this here. I can read the information SFF has reported on their process and funding just like anyone else.

2) About the "100 students with no funding": having a 1L guarantee doesn't mean that all 1Ls get funded first year ANYWHERE -- just those actually doing PI work. Anyway it's obvious from the number of grants given that SFF is actually funding far MORE people than are ultimately COMMITTED to public interest. What's going on here is not a lack of commitment to public interest but just a few entitled brats whining because someone isn't giving them free money after they failed to get paying SA gigs.

3) Obviously a flat guarantee for 1Ls would be great, and a few schools do offer that. As I pointed out above, we now have that for 2Ls (which is where it matters a lot more anyway, as the people funded for second year are the ones that are actually going to be doing PI work after they graduate. As far as peers go, PILA at UVA seems to be almost identical to SFF in the number and level of grants:

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2007_spr/pilagrant.htm

4) Since when does "commitment to public service" have anything to do with rankings? That's the dumbest thing I've seen on here in months.

104 hit the nail on the head as always

"A few entitled brats whining because someone isn't giving them free money after they failed to get paying SA gigs."

- Someone working for the ACLU
- Someone doing international human rights work
- Someone working on with homeless people

Those are a few of the people I know who applied for SFF and got waitlisted or rejected. None of them are wealthy and they are all committed to public service, but now they are going to be stuck in cities working part-time jobs to try to get by. Also, international students are truly screwed because they can't work in the US, so SFF was their only source of funding if they wanted to public interest work.

Stop being so judgmental and start caring about your fellow students.

Shout out to Michigan, and all the 1L's that will be working on the auto lines this summer.

Oh, wait...

I should've learned to play that guitar, I should have learned to play them drums.

Summary of top 10 schools and summer funding: http://www.lawweekly.org/?module=displaystory&story_id=2012&edition_id=86&format=html

Hey, fuck 'em. SFF should be transparent about who and why it picks in the first place.

This is super boring even to Michigan students... can't imagine how anyone else could care.

112 is nailing a sheep.

Comment removed by moderator.

There is no edit feature, lawopen.

However, not removing the name violates ATL policy, and I have informed them so it may be taken down. This isn't AutoAdmit.

There is no edit feature, lawopen.

However, not removing the name violates ATL policy, and I have informed them so it may be taken down. This isn't AutoAdmit.

nervoustop101L,

I wouldn't get so cocky. Lots of people know who you are.

119-

So long as you validly cut and pasted his open letter to the community, signed and all, I don't understand the problem.

He purposefully put his name out there, no?

Why should ATL hide the identify of someone who deliberately made it public??

Why so much rancor? Spread love it's the Brooklyn way.

120: you're the one who posted it you retard

Cunning linguists are tearing this website apart. Wait, let me restate that more positively. This website is being torn apart by cunning linguists.

Matthew,

Exercise your rights. People like the guy who posted on the listserve are the real problem who think everyone else should just sit and take it, since the "institutions" have your "best interests at heart" and have helped others. Lets use this same argument and apply it to the government generally. You have the right to ask, even if it seems like whining or entitlement. Enforcement and rights of action are created to be a check on the powers of unregulated/unsupervised organizations to in a sense police them at free cost to the government. Thank you for your civic service.

I have no dog in this fight, but anybody who is that offended by a (MI-state equivalent) FOIA request is a fucking douchebag. I applaud this pissy 1L. There is no one more self-righteous than trustafarians who get themselves embedded into public interest roles or organizations and than try to insulate everything that they do from any objective review ever.

Also, Dear 109,
Your post would be so much more convincing if you WERE to learn about the subjunctive case.

I think it is clear that this douche is just bitter that he didn't get a grant and wasn't good enough to get any real job so he needed something to occupy his summer. Fucking with SFF seemed like the right thing to do because he is a whiney little baby who isn't going to have anything to put on his resume after the summer and is never going to get an SA spot now. Enjoy living in Michigan without a job, it shouldn't be too hard to find work, right?

I think SFF already does an adequate job of disclosing its decision-making process, and there's nothing new/important that can be learned through FOIA.

First, the application instructions lay out pretty clearly how applicants are reviewed.

Second, SFF sent out an email to all applicants a couple weeks ago after they apparently got some more questions from applicants about the grant process (after grants had been awarded). The email included a "Clarifying Letter" that was very detailed about the process and other facts such as the number of grantees, the number of applicants, the total budget for SFF and where the funds come from (for example how much $ was raised through the SFF auction), etc. They even addressed how the grant amount is determined each year. This email was sent April 6th.

It's not apparent to me what information the requester seeks that hasn't been provided voluntarily already by the SFF Board.

--presumptively biased grant recipient

128 = Wayne State law student

I think Michigan should just fund 1L summers, like most of the other top 10 schools. It might even encourage people to do public service, which I think is a commendable goal, no?

130, wrong. 128 is T-10, with an SA spot at a V-10.

-128

#111:

- Someone working for the ACLU
- Someone doing international human rights work
- Someone working on with homeless people

---

Funny how they're not the ones on here griping about "lack of commitment to public interest" -- you are. As other posters have mentioned, most people who applied and didn't get funding would never have thought to start harassing the board and grousing on the internet about it. The board did what they could with what they had, and a lot of people DID get funded because of it.

How many hours did YOU work this past year, and how much money did YOU donate to support your classmates who you care so much about?

133 = Hofstra law student

133: You missed the point. I think 111 was pointing out that many of the people who didn't get SFF were not the "spoiled brats" that people were assuming.

Learn how to read?

Comment removed by moderator.

136 = Joe Biden

The reason why Penn can afford paying the stipend to every public interest intern is because of the huge revenue generated by the Nittany Lion home games. Once JoePa retires, they will be as cheap as U. Mich.

121: you really know who i am? email me at nervoust101l at yahoo dot com with the name of who you think i am.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Filing a claim may have been extreme, but it's not crazy either. The "clarifying letter" actually did very little to describe the process of how financial need is assessed for the (mere) 15% it counts. Furthermore, there is reason to believe the process used disadvantages the poorest applicants.

I was waitlisted for an SFF, although I have about the greatest financial need of anyone at UMich (receive about 10K in need-based grants each semester). In response to my inquiry regarding how SFF calculates financial need, I was told the following by an SFF board member:

"getting a lot of aid from the law school may have actually lowered your need since most people have to pay full tuition and get no financial aid (and so have to take out more loans)."

and, in the next e-mail, after I questioned this,

"The Law School does not give financial need to all who need it. It is by no means automatic. It isn't about parental assets, it's about limited law school assets. Count yourself lucky. If you have further concerns or questions about the financial aid process, please contact the Financial Aid Office."

Conclude from this what you will, but so far as I understand, the SFF board recognizes there is a problem and is working to correct their method of financial need calculation.

wow, from these posts it looks like im not the only one who has figured out who nervioust101l is

140: I get about the same amount of aid and was also WL'd. Sucks being poor.

@141 - yeah, he gives up a ton of identifying info, knowing he is summer starter and has an SA alone narrows the possibility to about 5 students

seirously? somebody with a prospective job at the ACLU didn't get the funding? there were 100 people who the felt should get the money more?

that's odd.

143 - he also said that he went to the "how to succeed in your summer job" presentation and asked a question.

only one 1L asked a question at that presentation. its not too hard to match a face to a name in the facebook... especially a face like his

141/121 - do you guys really know who nervous T-10 1L is? i'm a summer starter and i have no idea. initials please?

jojojo102 at yahoo dot com.

really, you guys know who he is? i'm a summer starter and i have no clue. initials please?

jojojo102 at yahoo dot com

#135:

Sorry, try again. Many of the people who did not get funded are not going around WHINING ABOUT IT like the guy who started all of this, and like #111 and company. Lots of people did not get funded. Lots of people understood that not everyone would get funded, and they never complained about it when it happened. A few entitled brats feel a need to piss and moan about it and try to cover their whining by saying it's all about their poor dedicated classmates. HTH.

#140:

There's nothing broken about the process as you are describing it. They ask how much financial aid each applicant gets from the school in the form of academic year grants, and how much money they will owe in loans at the end. Huge debt + no grants = higher score on the "need" component of the formula (I'm guessing here, but this is the obvious inference from the numbers that they ask for on the app, and it seems consistent with what you posted above).

Since funding for the program is so limited, it makes some sense to allocate it more to people who are not getting any other form of assistance from the school (and who aren't on a huge scholarship or having their parents foot the whole bill). You might have different thoughts on that, but I don't think it's "broken," in the sense of doing something unintended. The system as it is probably does exactly what they mean for it to do, although that's maybe not what you think it should do.

You mean the school doesn't have enough money to give 100% of those interested a grant? The TTT tide is rising.

140, that's a fair concern, the financial need part is vague and I can't imagine there's a "holistic" review process for those points when we have to provide dollar amounts on the application. I receive a similar amount of need-based grant aid each semester and was selected, fwiw.

--129

121 - And while you're at it, email ME with Nervous T101L's identity (since you can't post it here): wh279 at yahoo dot com.

121 - And while you're at it, email ME with Nervous T101L's identity (since you can't post it here): wh279 at yahoo dot com.

Those of you who get need-based aid and who think that should qualify you for an SFF grant are ridiculous. For whatever reason, you are getting financial aid from the school, while your classmates who also have 0 financial resources are taking out the full amount in loans because they're poor but not poor enough. Nobody has $180K lying around to pay for law school, and of course someone who has to take out $180K in loans should get priority over someone who already got $10K per year in need based aid. This isn't undergrad - everyone is in the same boat and has to take out loans to pay for school. Quit your whining and just be grateful you get any need-based aid at all. Stop feeling so entitled to a handout.

121/141

who is nervous? im a summer starter and sick of his shtick. email his initials to

hjk111@ymail.com

I must say that this kid SCORES at WILL. However, I AM DJ DDUK.

I think the FOIA request is alright, especially since the SFF board is one of the most poorly run organizations in the school. For example, they're so pedantic about their format requirements (successful formatting means more "points"), yet the application was inconsistent and ambiguous in what it wanted in that regard.

The University of Michigan Law School placed the decision of whether 1Ls should be funded in the summer in the hands of students, including 1Ls. Frankly, I'm not surprised that the money has been so clumsily handled. I am even more humored by the comments of naive, obnoxious 1Ls who think they know the solution to the problem, and obnoxious 2Ls and 3Ls who clearly don't understand the funding predicament 1Ls are in.

Anyhow, I got my firm job this summer. I'm not donating a dime to SFF until there's a little more accountability and transparency. Two thumbs up to the FOIA dude, two thumbs down to naive upperclassmen and intellectually challenged 1Ls.

Nervous V-10 1L

156, how the fuck did all those upperclassmen, many of whom applied for SFF a year ago, suddenly become naive? Does naive just mean "disagrees with you?"

Idiot.

mmmm dduk...

157,

I don't suppose the fact that the vast majority of 2Ls got an SFF grant last year makes a difference has to how they see the matter, does it? Are you a moron or something?

Keep in mind that the "vast majority of 2Ls" who got a grant numbers 12.

#159:

You may be working with a definition of "vast majority" that I'm not familiar with. If by "vast majority of 2Ls got an SFF grant last year" you mean "a number slightly less than the number of 1Ls who got a grant this year," then you are correct.

To repeat, since this has been overlooked, one thing changed hardly at all this year:

- Last year, X number of 1Ls got SFF grants.
- This year, X+3 1Ls got SFF grants.

But other things changed a lot:

- Applications went UP by 54%
- Total funding went DOWN by 9%

And of course the biggest change was, this year a handful of the MANY people who did not get a grant, rather than behaving like adults, decided to be raging douchebags and start a listserv / FOIA / ATL shitfest about it.

#160

I'm assuming that #159 is talking about current 2Ls who got SFF grants for their 1L summers. Your number is correct for people who, last year, got SFF grants for their 2L summers.

#162, true.

Last year, per the letter from SFF, 51/122 1Ls got SFF. That's 42% of the applicants. The majority of people last year were denied, as well.

Now, now 160-63, don't let the truth stop the waaahmbulance.

To be fair, UM should be concentrating all funding on hiring Greg Paulus to play QB. He is a proven winner and a transcendent two sport athlete.

wtf I am a 1L summer starter and have NO idea who nervoust101L is but he or she deserves rot in hell. who is this person?! I hope they get transferred to yale and leave.
in all likelihood this person doesnt even have a SA position and making all this shit up and is probably in efgh, who the hell knows.

someone just emailed me the name of who nervous t-10 1L is, it makes sense once you think about it.

post the initials here!! so at least some people will know before its taken down!

who is he? im in abcd, email me

whoisnervous@gmail.com

Email it to nervous@mailinator.com, then we can all find out.

121 here again,

Not going to email anyone with who nervoustop101l is. But I know for sure.

#121 is bogartin' the dirt.

#167, ur are only hope!

121: i highly doubt you know who i am. in fact, i may be the last person you suspect. but if you really think you know me email me at nervoust101l at yahoo dot com.

as to all you other summer starters...you're all going to get pwned in crim...another class i'm going to book.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

somebody fucking tell us.
nervous- you arent that smart. Its not THAT hard to track you down with one email address. with an email address, im sure I can get your IP information, and with that know where you live, and then find out who you are.

if I really wanted to that is. but Im sure you will be revealed very soon. be freakin afraid.

Also, MICHIGAN TIPSTER DONT think you are off the hook either.

Nervous- giving out an email is really smart bc from your email address, I can find your IP address, which will lead me to your location and name.

be afraid.

michigan tipster, you are next.

why do you guys care so much who nervous is? do you want to destroy his career? last time i checked he never did anything harmful to anyone other than be annoying. i'm a summer starter and i know who he is. i'm not about to tell anonymous people over the internet though, he's a nice enough person IRL and i'm sure he just does this for the lulz. you all should grow up. we're graduating from a PROFESSIONAL school in 18 months.

t10, word gets around about who books each course in our section. since that happens only when the person leaks it him/herself, i doubt you could be one of those people unless you're highly stupid.

it's the internetz, d00der. information wants 2 b free!

there are few people in abcd who have firm jobs. it's obvious once he revealed which section he's in.

nervous is really professional when he posts
why dont he get lulz from things that do not affect the value of my degree
if michigan goes down i blamez you nervous

Cough it up then: nervous@mailinator.com.

sup /b/

@138, Joe Paterno coaches at Penn State, not Penn

nervous, i emailed u with initials of who i think u are but u didn't respond

@184 - probably shitting his pants.

Now he IS nervous T10 1L

im with 156, most student run organizations in law school are run horrendously, even worse when money is involved. This is mostly because you are dealing with kids in their early 20s that haven't had to pay a bill in their lives and have no idea how to manage anything other than a lemonade stand.
People who've had some business experience or even a job steer clear of most of this student run crap.

# 153 & # 148:
Is the view on need-based financial aid really that the university gives it out randomly? I was under the impression that the university gives out aid IN PROPORTION TO NEED. This means that a student who receives $5,000 in grant aid becomes, at best, on a level playing field with a student who receives no grant aid. Students with grant aid, then, should be considered no less needy than those without grant aid, regardless of projected loan amount upon graduation. When you think about it, the university's system for determining financial need is far more sophisticated than the "holistic" SFF abacus; need-based grants received are really SFF's best measure of how needy a student truly is. Maybe you disagree about whether a Public Interest Fellowship should care about its applicants' financial need, but whatever amount financial need counts, it should be assessed accurately.

So, wait. A school should give more of its public interest money to someone who has to take out fewer loans (and therefore will find it easier to take a public-interest job) than to people who have to take out more loans?

Does this make any sense?

His response only made him sound like more of a douche.

Really mature 189.

188. Yes, this does make sense once you figure out the answer to why some students receive need-based grants while others don't. Think on it.

"another class i'm going to book"?

that's clearly untrue, since we all know who booked 2 of abcd's 3 classes last semester.

190: it's nice that at least you stop pretending to be various anonymous people backing you up. you're on your own buddy, it was a bad move. just own up to it and move on.

the more you go on with this the more your name gets thrown around the internet. we're all goign to be your future colleagues and employers. look at the autoadmit people, dumbass moves (even when you're sure you're right) hurt your career.

191: how do we know that the person you're talking about isn't nervous? i could see it actually.

I've always disliked the total lack of transparency on most law-student run organizations that actually matter. Moot courts that are judged by students are bad, law reviews based on write-ons are bad. I'm not sure which one is worse. Law review is a much bigger deal, but moot court actually lets you see the applicant and is thus inherently biased on a whole bunch of inappropriate grounds with student judges.

I know for a fact that there are several T1 schools where moot court in particular isn't that well regarded by recruiters because of these process issues.

Haha,

nervous, told you we know.

@183 - same thing - hello? Penn is the Philly campus of the Penn State University system. One state university, multiple campuses. How hard is that?

- 138

196: No. Penn is a private university. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania

I'm next what? I don't post through UMich's network ever, I'm not e-mailing you and if I did, I'd proxy anyway.

You also can't get an IP address "from an e-mail address".

Nervous was outed on LawOpen earlier today

That is def not nervous.

"Students with grant aid, then, should be considered no less needy than those without grant aid, regardless of projected loan amount upon graduation."

Wait, what? Is there some kind of deep, spiritual need that burdens those with grant aid, making them "no less needy" than those with a larger debt load? We're still talking about financial need, right?

how do you tell if they are nervous?
:)

*farts*

Is it 4/20 yet?

-Michael Phelps

As a Michigan Law alum, I consider a FOIA request is rather extreme response. SFF does some great things. On the other hand, I hope it does cause students to look at the way that SFF works. I was flat-out told as a 1L that unless you're drinking buddies with someone on the board, you're not getting a fellowship. Oh, and this was at the SFF info meeting. Let's not kid ourselves, SFF is run by networking, not by a person's history of public service. Too bad the entitled kid who filed the request will probably have the opposite effect.

i thought paterno was the coach at pitt

#205, given who didn't get it and who's on the board, they did a terrible job of funneling money to their friends this year.

2. LawOpen concerns: In light of the most recent Above the Law thread, does something need to be done about LawOpen?

from LSSS agenda for tomorrow's meeting

Penn ran out of work study and public interest funding this year.

Last year, UVA told all 1Ls that everyone who applies for public interest funding gets it and all the 1Ls relied on that advice, so when there were fewer 1L firm jobs everyone expected to get the public interest funding. A lot of people got screwed by this and there was a lot of noise made about making the process more transparent. http://www.lawweekly.org/?module=displaystory&story_id=2014&edition_id=86&format=html

The saddest thing about this whole story is how scared LAW STUDENTS are of a basic legal action.

Information is NEVER a bad thing. Regardless of whether or not anyone thinks the guy can use the info for anything, if it is public then he has a right to know.

Why is he acting so entitled? Because he IS entitled to the information. Put on the big girl panties and stop whining about someone exercising their right to information.

~UM 1L

Oh, fuck that shit, 210. Sure, he's entitled to it. No one's arguing with that. Acting upon all of one's rights without regard for the effects of one's actions upon others is almost a definition of being a douche.

The problem with his actions is the content of the FOIA, but the fact that he'd go get one. This dude's actions (a) cost SFF (or the university) money that could be better spent, (b) reflect a distrust of and dislike for the MLaw community so intense as to preclude handling the matter internally, (c) make us look stupid via the inevitable ATL post, (d) are utterly futile, insofar as they aim to get him money, and (e) are pointless and spiteful otherwise.

If this guy were really concerned about the SFF process for the good of other students, he would run for the SFF board. Or write an article in the RG. Or post to lawopen. Or start a rival org. His current actions are very unlikely to have any positive impact, though they may quench the burn of rejection through spiteful waste of others' time and money. Douche.

*"is NOT the content of the FOIA" Oops.
~211

Oh please 211 - what makes MLaw look bad is the utter and complete lack of cooperation and transparency by our STUDENT organizations. He has a right to know, which you admitted, and that comes with the right to exercise it even when things are made difficult to him.

I'm sick and damned tired of MLaw fearing the inevitable ATL post. What makes us look bad is when we pussy out about LEGAL actions when we're in LAW school. MLaw students need to grow the hell up and accept that when people feel screwed they are going to act.

Let's ask some more questions about SFF before condemning the kid to filed the request.

~MLaw 2L

::the kid who filed the requst::

~213

Way to not address a single point I made, 213. But tell me, why should we wait to condemn the kid if he didn't wait to file the FOIA? Sauce for the goose, etc.

I didn't address them because they don't matter. Here is what matters.

1. He is entitled to do it.
2. He did it.
3. He's getting attacked for it.

Entitlement is nothing if, when you try to exercise it, people attack as though it wasn't a right. I, like a lot of people, DO NOT CARE whether or not it costs SFF money, scares away little babies who would fail at law anyway if this little thing bothers them, gets picked up by ATL, or doesn't make sense to the likes of you.

If SFF is doing inappropriate things then we should know and finding out information is the first step to that. Money be damned.

If potential students see that a LAW student is using THE LAW to help him and choose not to attend the school then GOOD. They'll make crappy lawyers.

ATL will pick up whatever the hell it picks up. It is the BS way we handle things that embarrasses the school - NOT the story itself. When the hooker story broke, the only embarrassment I heard about was that people bought her bullshit and that she skated by. The story would've died otherwise.

As for whether or not it is pointless -- bringing information that SHOULD be public and is being hidden into the light is NEVER pointless. At the very least it would vindicate SFF and all them to say they stand by their procedures (something they could do already if they just released the information without all the wrangling) and at most its possible there is something shady going on. Either way - there's a point.

So there you go kiddo -- I addressed all your points. They were silly and obvious and anyone capable to getting into MLaw should have realized that... but I addressed them.

~213

Remember the University of Michigan Race Case, the one that got to the Supreme Court? The U was lying about the secret race admissions grids, and lied for years and years. A professor submitted a FOIA request and the U fought it in court. Then the truth came out.

UMich lied over and over and over on race and admissions, and race and tuition--why would we think they are not racistly giving out the PI summer money and lying about it?

"Has there ever been a time that the Freedom of Information Act accomplished anything other than waste a bunch of people's time and money? I tried to find an example of when this law did something not worthless on Wikipedia and found the following:"

That and the fact that FOIA has been one of the main mechanisms of getting the torture memos and similar documents. FOIA has been used in many incredibly important situations.

and now we can uncover the nasty truth that SFF is siphoning off charitable donations to fund Al Q and subvert freedom. i don't trust those law reviewers either, spreading their codes...

what happened to the FOIA request at UM?