duel or dual?

Couldn't agree more. That's why I'm starting in Houston this fall.

"is it still worth it to live for the city"

wow

To paraphrase Twain, rumors of NYC's death have been greatly exaggerated.

Move to New Orleans

To paraphrase Horace Greeley,

Go to Jersey, young man, go to Jersey.

no way! nyc is sooooo awesome. you have the opera, broadway, and so many neat little restaurants! nyc is the best!

Live for the city
or live for the night?

145K in NYC with lots of student loans, rent, food, clothing for work, and just living in general is absolutely nothing. And God forbid you actually try to put some money in your 401K. And i also know associates in NY that help other family members who do not make as much as they do. $160 just about gets you there...this is all BS...I'm headed to NYC next year and scared..

EXCELLENENTT NESWS REPORTNG ELIE NOW GO EATSOME MORE COHOCOLATE

Well . . . NY is taxing those making over $500K per year at a pretty steep rate. I think that might drive out a lot of the people who are contributing to the high COL. I wonder if this is what they were thinking . . .

flame bait.

Chicago, Chicago, Chicago. All the perks, none of the costs. Burn!

Yes. Its done. Please every attorney under 30 should leave.

A new low for ATL. Talk about mindless drivel.

This is a joke, right? Because Houston is such an epicenter for global commerce....

This article is complete nonsense. Even at $100,000 a year, a person can live in Hollis, Queens or the South Bronx. Perhaps Cypress Hills? Not everyone can afford to live in a duplex in Manhattan. If you want to live in Manhattan because you want to satiate some ego induced fantasy about having made it due to you having a Manhattan address, as I mentioned before, rent a mailbox in the Upper East Side and slum it in the outer boroughs. Unless you make over $300K a year, you will not be living comfortably on your own in Manhattan and that is a fact. Face it lemmings, you chose the worse time to enter this profession. In 10 years, most firms will be outsourcing over 50% of their work to foreign based attorneys who are willing to work at a fraction of the cost we pay associates today. The upside is, no frivoulous wrongful termination suits, discrimination suits, health benefits, pension plans, overhead in office space and support staff. Deal with it. Perhaps this was part of the change President Obama was talking about on his campaign trail. I am on board.

Was talking with another associate in the Houston office of my firm. He has a 5 bedroom, 6 bathroom house with two nice cars. I rent what can generously be described as a one bedroom. We are the same year and make the same money. Granted, he lives in Houston. But at some point, I agree, NYC is just not worth it. Forbes (or Fortune) mag rated NYC dead last for "personal wealth accumulation." Chicago, here I come.

Chicago is superior. But, unless you get Kirkland, Sidley, Skadden, you simply are not getting the same experience as you would in NY (on the corporate side).

Atlanta.

QUEENS REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!

As a ten year resident of Manhattan who moved southward for a better job, a higher net salary and a far richer lifestyle, the death of New York City as the legal and financial capital of the world is imminent and richly deserved. The fact that the city is run by useless union scum who are hell bent on bleeding the productive members of society dry is the major factor. Given the low intelligence of your typical union serf, it is no suprise that this form of governance by chimpanzees is obliterating what was once the greatest city on the planet.

It is no accident that there are now more Fortune 500 companies in Texas or that Northern Virginia will pull even with NYC as a driver of wealth by 2020. When that occurs, it is only a matter of time before NYC returns to its bad old days as Mogidishu on the Hudson.

More ATL fearmongering...

Its all about the MidWest now. The firms out there can do all the same work with far less overhead. That's why they are getting all of the alternative energy and med-tech business, it doesn't matter where that work is done.

NYC will slowly become a more reasonable place to live, cost-wise. Bankers were propping up the real estate market and it's already begun to decrease in price - rents are down 10-15% already in most parts of manhattan and will only go down further.

The city will continue to be the intellectual and cultural epicenter of the country. If the country ever picks itself up off the floor (sadly not a given), this will be the place where it will happen first.

As much as it is disparaged, you still have a highly concentrated, highly educated, greedy-ass population. That breeds innovation.

If I moved to NYC, how much would it cost to park my Lexis?

As a Texas transplant working in NYC, I simply park my 3500 sq ft wife somewhere and live in her for free.

Large Farva

Elie, you suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually -- in the spirit of 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me' -- I suck for continuing to visit ATL.

come to philly instead. best city, hands down. good legal market, don't have to kill yourself with billables and extremely affordable. you don't even need to take the subways b/c you can walk EVERYWHERE.

This was perhaps the single worst post I have ever read. It quite simply offered nothing in terms of content and not much more in humor.

Aren't rents going down in NYC?

14 - And Jay Cutler.

Why would NYC associates care what their apartments look like? Don't they sleep at the office most nights anyway?

More ATL fearmongering...

Your Roxana "On the Breadline" columnist doesn't seem to be smart enough to be asking this question herself, but instead clings to unrealistic fantasies that a BIGLAW job will drop in her lap now, months into continuing to live too expensively for someone unemployed with few prospects ever to make the BIGBUCKS again. The more one reads her stories, the more one realizes that she probably epitomizes the ostrich-with-head-in-sand generation of newbie lawyers who think this is still 1990, or ever will be again....

DC is almost as good as chicago - slightly higher rent but nowhere near NYC. Just taking away the stupid NYC tax makes a huge difference.

Thanks for this uplifting post. Now, even those of us who still have jobs can feel like jumping out a window.

20-

You mean the layoffs?

This would never happen in Ft Worth. Nice neighborhoods, restaurants, no crime and civilized folks to work around.

NYC is expensive, but an associate does not need to live in the city. He can enjoy large house and cars living out in Westchester.

this debate always makes me laugh. your shiny cars and mcmansions aren't worth shit when you step outside into your sprawled out wasteland of a "city." no other city in the US even comes close to NYC, except san fran, which is just as expensive and has no legal market. the only other POSSIBILITY is chicago, which still doesn't come close to NYC but is substantially cheaper.

No, it's not worth it to live in NYC. Never has been, but it's probably true that it's worse than ever now. That said, top candidates are not going to stop going there, so no, it's not "done."

Only DC has anywhere near the career possibilities of NYC. Granted, DC is not cheap compared to Texas (3500 sq ft, bride, Lexis!), but between the federal government (DOJ, SEC, Treasury and a host of other legal employers), IMF and World Bank, think tanks, TWO federal circuits (DC and Federal), the USSC and the country's second-highest number of large law firm offices, there's a lot on offer for someone who just took the dive off the law school deep end. Of course, you've got violent crime and the world's most humid swamp-ass-inducing summers as your negatives. But it's better than living in Houston. And much much much cheaper than Manhattan.

Holy hell, this was an awful post! It's like trying to read a 3rd grader's essay on "What I did last summer."

"I understand that a lot of people have trouble believing that $145K doesn't take you far in NYC."

"Look, I know that lots of New Yorkers live on a lot less than $145K."

You don't have to repeat this over and over. We get it, folks live on less than $145K in the great NYC. We don't need an entire post for that topic.

39- touche (i dont know how to add the deal above the "e").

-20

Concur with the reasoning of Partner Emeritus. The NYC lifestyle you law students want to live is a bullshit TV fantasy. $160K is more than enough to survive in Manhatten, but it's not enough to live like you are in Manhatten. So either you make $300K+, you go the $30K Millionaire route and file BK in a few years (not discharging the student loans, of course), or you don't live like you're a millionaire.

Charlotte! Pittsburgh! Housttton.

Pick your poison, pick your giant house, pick your twin luxury cars, pick your plane tickets for weekends in NYC or Paris (seeing as you can now afford to jet away for the weekend), pick your wardrobe ( armani, or casual friday? your choice). Pick the right city, and you can pick your entire life.

Forget about riding a bicycle to work in NYC because you can't afford the subway on 160K. Forget about making just enough money to pretend like you're a baller at the club but having to hide the fact that the porsche emblem keychain is just a prop).

why in god's name live in NY? if you live anywhere else and make the same salary, you can fly to NY twice a month and party like you could never afford to party if you actually lived there.

Haha, Large Farva. More Super Troopers references please. They are at least funny.

While TX may be cheap, most people don't want to live there. The truly desirable markets for BIGLAW jobs are NYC, DC, and San Francisco. And it's much, much easier to get a BIGLAW job in New York than in the other two.

Are DC and SF more desirable? Of course. But the students who can't land jobs there will still wind up in New York.

this website sucks

I make 65k, have modest student loans, am single - no kids, am able to save a reasonable amount of money, work 9-5, live in brooklyn, really enjoy life, and am comfortable with how much i'm able to save.

And frankly wouldn't mind it if all you whining money grubbers would get the hell out of the city because you make it less interesting and don't add sh*t!

44 - unfortunately, DC is about as hip/cool/interesting as frankfurt, germany. Snore...

There are no subways in Philly, douche. And yeah, walking around Philly is great - if you don't mind the incredibly antagonistic "homeless" people who will outright demand the sandwich you are carrying back to your shitty office on Logan Square. If you're excited about living in a city where the newspapers boast about "30 murders in 30 days" yeah go for it.

elie-

the other day i commented that an article you wrote was one of the best i have seen out of you. you have since regressed -- i think even lower than before. this shit sucks.

Next up on ATL: Are firms really considering sending rockets full of associates to the moon to cut salary costs? It could be true, if Elie thought it!

It's a little early to be tolling the death knell for NYC.

IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.

GET OUT NOW

If you are a big law associate, what is the difference between living in New York, Chicago, LA, DC or any number of large cities? If you are (or were, more appropriately) billing 2000+ hours per year, you have little free time to enjoy what a city has to offer. What does it matter that New York has such great theater...you're working; you can't go see the shows! Who cares that San Francisco has amazing restaurants...you're having take out delivered to the office!

The "which city is better" debate on this site is inane; sitting in an office is the same in New York as it is in Frostbite Falls.

52. Wow, you are poor.

Say what you say, but the fact is that there is only one NYC.

On a related note - is LONDON OVER? Let's face it - it's 2X as expensive as NYC, depends on finance - abandon ship!

Didn't Elie pronounce Chicago DOA a week or to ago? Closing the Loop, etc. Next week, if he doesn't have any real news fall in his enormous lap, he'll speculate on D.C.'s sad fate.

Love the Stevie Wonder reference.

Is NYC done? Yes

One of the bluest of blue states run into the ground by the same type of folks currently inhabiting the White House. When 40,000 taxpayers are paying the frieght for a city of 8 million, it won't be long before the 40,000 have had enough and flee the state.

That's change we can believe in!

Is this post a joke? what the fuck is wrong with you? so what if it's expensive and you have less of a materials-based existence? Experientially, living in the city can't be matched, unless you're not interested in variety or sincerity. Anyway, you're a fucking douchebag idiot with no idea what the fuck matters in life. Once you pass a third-grade reading level and discover that there's such a thing as originality and investigative reporting you might discover that the mindless soul-numbing existence you carry forward with you like an albatross around your rubbery neck is compelling you to write drivel about places too great for your pea-sized brain to take in.

62, London is fucked. British real estate bubble is far worse than ours.

I really don't understand these kinds of posts. Back when Lat was at the helm, posts were often funny and light-hearted ... even when the underlying issue was serious. Now, we have an editor who just MAKES UP these apocryphal issues to scare the crap out of us all. I'm going to NYC this fall. There's nothing I can do about that. This post -- and others of the same ilk, they make me feel like shit. Thanks ATL. I have to keep reading you so I'll know when my firm finally defers my start date. While I'm waiting for that, you can continue to scare the shit out of me. Lovely.

The answer to your question, Elie, is Yes.

And good post (I like the "Coming to America" reference)

I live in Gowanus.

What exactly is the meaning of, "at some point even a girl like Newark looks doable"?

Okay this post is stupid. I currently work in DC, love DC, encourage people to move to DC all the time. That being said I know plenty of people for whom living in NYC is worth all the sacrifices. They were not getting more money when you included the cost of living except maybe the year of "special bonuses." So what Elie describes has almost always been the case.

Anyone who thinks this recession spells the end of finance does not know what finance is. Finance does, and will continue to, make the world go round. And bankers are simply smarter than everyone else. They are already on to the next big thing, just waiting for the world to catch up.

54 - You have never been to Philadelphia and taken the "subway" while the bros peddle bean pies and NOI lit. You think the homeless are aggressive in Philly? You are the typical "lawyer in the dell"

59 nailed it. i will in fact take my shadyside mansion in pittsburgh. i'm a one hour flight from weekends in NYC, where i can afford to go all out whenever i feel like it. my ethnic takeout is just as good as NYC takeout. my wholefoods is just as fresh. my nordstroms is just as close. my saks has just as much overpriced garbage. i am allowed to carry concealed, though don't need to because it's safe. i own a beautiful car. i have a beautiful wife. a beautiful house. my 401K runneth over.

Who would have thought the change Obama was talking about was actually about the fact that before I was making mad money and after his tax policies are implemented, I will be homeless begging for change?

I would leave if I could. Perhaps to Chicago or DC. Not a lot of jobs out there though. So stuck w/ pollution, noise, trash, high taxes, unaffordable housing and mean bastards such as many of those that frequent ATL. At least the legal work is challenging much of the time.

If you are single then living in a big city is the place to be. That means New York, Chicago or DC. Philly is a small city. Atlanta and Houston are just big suburbs with a couple of big buildings.

54 have you ever been to Philly? I assume you saw the Logan Square address on someone's letterhead, because if you were familiar at all with the city, you would know that it does have a subway.

71 - That would be Elie trying to insert some "wit" into his writing, which apparently he is incapable of doing without writing something offensive and derogatory. He has the humor of a 12 year old enrolled in remedial classes.

NYC is a great city. I love to visit, but would I leave Orange County to live there?

Not a chance. I would rather be a bum in Southern California than a millionaire in New York.

Of course I make the same amount of $$$$ as my peers in NY anyway.

This is the most depressing post I have ever seen.

- Just made plans to leave DC for NYC

If "The One" gets his desired tax policies implemented, and NY's sad excuse for a governor keeps working with the state legislature to tax everything imaginable, and the City government keeps upping its rates, THREE TIMES $160K might not be enough to live in Manhattan and match anything like the quality of life in Chicago, San Francisco, LA, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, or a host of other places. Add to that fact, from one who has lawyered in various parts of the country, there's no reason to want to learn from or emulate the way many NYC lawyers practice law anyway. All would be better learning from the largely higher quality lawyers practicing in other parts of the country, and making homes where one can have a work/leisure balance that's increasingly rare in current NYC.

Elie, crisis has a plural.

73, you are smoking crack!

Atlanta and Houston = LA - the good stuff about LA (e.g., good weather, nice scenery, oceanside locale, hipness).

I see no reason to live there.

79, 74 - If you would serious compare SEPTA to a real subway system, you are sorely mistaken. Enjoy eating your shitty "ethnic" food at Cuba Libre.

Likely. It never made sense that many firms insisted on universal salaries across the board in the first place. In boomtimes, New York (ONLY) to $190 made sense. $130K in Chicago is like $190K in NY. Now, many associates won't easily be able to live in Manhattan on what firms can afford to pay. At least, they'll get more bang for their buck elsewhere.

I have never understood why anyone would live in New York when they could live in Chicago.

54, you are an idiot. There are subways in Philly (e.g., Market street line, Broad street line). I agree that the homeless are aggressive, but so is everyone else in Philly. That's just how they roll in a city once named America's rudest. You gotta be tough. This town ain't sissified like Manhattan.

30, Philly is great -- but not for lawyers. Philly has one of the highest per capita populations of lawyers in the nation. With the collapse of Wolf Block, and the numerous lay offs at other Philly firms, finding a job will be very difficult. If

Very true...

I used to work in New York. Then I said this:

"The ship be sinking..."

33: Super Bowl, Super Bears
-14

I HOPE TO FIND MY QUEEN IN QUEENS

NYU 2L here getting out of NYC the day after graduation.

I HOPE TO FIND MY QUEEN IN QUEENS

76 - That's a bro for ya

I am reconsidering moving from the lower east side to section 8 housing in the girl called Newark. I will only be a PATH train ride away from the amenities of NYC.

54--assmunch extraordinaire. Philly has subways. And, generally, is a fantastic place to live, especially if you're making 100K+. Goes lots farther than most east coast cities.

54--assmunch extraordinaire. Philly has subways. And, generally, is a fantastic place to live, especially if you're making 100K+. Goes lots farther than most east coast cities.

Great post, Elie. Clearly you touched a nerve, which only reaffirms the fact that you are dead on right.

"NYC is expensive, but an associate does not need to live in the city. He can enjoy large house and cars living out in Westchester."

Right. Because Westchester is such a bargain.

The make-or-break with NYC is having kids, as far as I'm concerned. It's a great place to live single or married-without-children, but it gets very tough when you've got children to deal with, especially school-age children.

76 - That's a bro for ya

54--assmunch extraordinaire. Philly has subways. And, generally, is a fantastic place to live, especially if you're making 100K+. Goes lots farther than most east coast cities.

A question for Partner Emeritus:

Can you really outsource all your junior associate work? Really? If you are a TOP firm, I say you can't.

I remember when I was a first year in NYC Biglaw (starting was $85K back then) and the bread and butter of our work was bet the company lit. Sure we had the coding done overseas, but with 200 depos scheduled over nine months - there was tremendous demand for talented junior attorneys. I took my first depo just weeks after being sworn in.

My point is that you cannot outsource the important stuff. And sometimes there is a LOT of important stuff that needs to get done.

Ultimately, I think there will be fewer firms at the top (as there should be) - but those top firms will still have a need for LARGE incoming classes to handle important work that cannot be outsourced. Firms bases in Texas, however, will probably not have a need for such talent.

The real question is where will clients go when looking for legal services. With all modern conveniences, it has begun to be less practical to hold a huge office in NY. Now you can have a small office in NYC where you can have partners go to when meeting clients, etc. For the rest of the time, have all your associates, staff and partner live in offices all around the country.

Roanoke, VA is the new Philly. Everybody is here.

The real question is where will clients go when looking for legal services. With all modern conveniences, it has begun to be less practical to hold a huge office in NY. Now you can have a small office in NYC where you can have partners go to when meeting clients, etc. For the rest of the time, have all your associates, staff and partner live in offices all around the country.

Philly's awesome! I love walking around the city on Sunday when everything is closed and the entire city is dead! Oh wait....

54--assmunch extraordinaire. Philly has subways. And, generally, is a fantastic place to live, especially if you're making 100K+. Goes lots farther than most east coast cities.

Don't live in Manhattan, and you shouldn't have a problem.

Also, don't have children. But that's just a good fiscal decision all the way around.

Most of you people are probably just idiots when it comes to spending. I would love to see some of your bank statements. I loved NYC when I made $40K before becoming a lawyer, and I love it now. Anyone who can't make it here is encouraged not to try.

Limbaugh's right about NYC, NYS, Connecticut => Higher and higher taxes on the few producers will induce fewer and fewer to stay and fewer and fewer to want to live there.

Places like Florida and Texas, with no state income taxes, and like Georgia with generally low taxes, and generally good weather and fun things to do, are where the smart people are going to live. People who realize that now are going to be way ahead of their current peers in less than ten years.

42 is on the money. sf has no legal market (sv might as well be texas), and even if you can stand the Chicago lifestyle many legal fields simply don't exist there.

I don't disagree with the underlying premise - I've never understood why so many young associates flock to NYC knowing that they are going to get worked way worse than in other markets for the same money, in a city in which that money doesn't go nearly as far.

The problem with this post is that it is poorly written, poorly reasoned, and poorly supported. In short, this post epitomizes everything about Elie's pathetic tenure at ATL.

Just look at California's sorry state to get a preview of what NY will be like by next year. NY and Cali are examples of what happens when rich liberals take a crap all over the middle class and sell the state's future to public sector unions. Yesterday, the deputy mayor of NYC said that NYC is just like GM, a big bankruptcy caused by high labor costs and ridiculous pension benefits. The middle class has fled NYC, and is beginning to flee the suburbs as well (Long Island, North Jersey). NY will consist of a few wealthy enclaves surrounded by a sea of poor unskilled people on the government dole.

59, what is this fallacy that you have to work 24/7. I have found I can absolutely have a life billing 190-200 a month. And that's solid yearly billing. Heading into trial or other times when you get really busy is a different story. Billing over 200 gets dicey, and I begin to feel like I'm making real sacrifices. But most months are fine. Busy. But fine.

This is without a doubt the most ridiculous post ever on this site. From this day forward, I will never visit this site again. This is pure fear mongering. I seriously cannot believe it.

I live inside my 3500 sq ft wife rent free.

I don't disagree with the underlying premise - I've never understood why so many young associates flock to NYC knowing that they are going to get worked way worse than in other markets for the same money, in a city in which that money doesn't go nearly as far.

The problem with this post is that it is poorly written, poorly reasoned, and poorly supported. In short, this post epitomizes everything about Elie's pathetic tenure at ATL.

QUEENS REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!

Yes Ellie, the world is coming to an end. You can stop the fearmongering. Why not write something on firms that haven't pushed start dates/cut summer programs/had layoffs instead of focusing on layoffs at firms in Connecticut no one has heard of?

I like Philly, but wouldn't exactly call it a great legal market these days. Or for the last few decades.

17 - You're an idiot. Ever hear of the energy industry? That's, like, kinda global, dontchathink?

OMG, is NYC the next Detroit?!?!?!

Seriously, though, there are lots of good cities to live in for less money and plenty of perks. NYC has cool restaurants and culture, but it's an exhausting place to live. More and more cities are improving the food and culture. And in other cities, you can actually afford to own property and park your car.

86 - What hollar or dell do you practice in?

36 + 83 + 112 + 115 are right. Obamataxandspendanomics is going to hit NYC and California the hardest. Already well on their way to being the trash heaps of America.

86 - 79 here. Not my point at all - just pointing out that Philly has a subway. I agree that Cuba Libre stinks, but overall, Philadelphia is an outstanding place to live. But I grew up in NY, so don't feel that I have anything to prove by staying there and pretending that it's a great place to live. For a Biglaw associate, it's not. For a Biglaw partner, perhaps. (BTW, Villanova to NCAA champs!!)

Another question for P.E.

I am Class of '00 and of counsel at a V50 firm. What are my chances of making partner in this economy? I have been told to be patient and that my time is coming. I am starting to feel like I am getting played.

P.S. I live in a one bedroom apt. in Chelsea. I pay $4,000 a month with a doorman.

Remember when this site used to post substantive stories instead of speculation meant solely to generate comments and page hits?

Ok- All this talk about NYC being "done" is horrifying. I LOVE the city, and no, it's not some ego trip I'm fulfilling by living there. It's true love for the city and all it has to offer.
It IS way too expensive. I just lost my NYC BigLaw Firm job and had to leave in order to weather the storm (Hometown SmallLaw Firm).
But it gives me perspective- I obviously took a large paycut in accepting a position in a smaller firm in a smaller city, and life goes on. If I had the opportunity to go back to the city on a lesser paying job (first of all, 145k is still more than I'm making now) I would totally go for it. It's what separates the true city lovers from the wannabe city dwellers.
And perhaps the crunch is needed in the city. Salaries AND costs were way too high. The market needs to readjust.

wtf is this, how is this news?

Finally, a NYer is entertaining the notation that NYC is well....an overpriced dump

100 - Nice comment, Elie. Really makes up for all the people trashing you.

There's a story about partners turning their offices into youth hostels or something making the rounds on the other legal blogs that fits your doom-and-gloom ethos; you should rip it off.

It's real simple folks - if you want to live in NYC, then you will. If you don't then you won't.

Why is everyone even granting redence to the ATL/Elie pot-stir of a question?

It's real simple folks - if you want to live in NYC, then you will. If you don't then you won't.

Why is everyone even granting credence to the ATL/Elie pot-stir of a question?

130 - if you were to return to NYC, it would cost you SO much more in taxes - not to mention in probable insurance and protection costs to try to keep you and your belongings safe - that you would beg Hometown SmallLawFirm to take you back.

Who is John Galt?

After the jump, is it still worth it to read this blog?

Queens is the promised land.

Great post! Liked the Coming to America reference and also enjoyed the line "even a girl like Newark looks doable." Well done.

WILDMAN HARROLD is in Chicago, not NYC. Case closed.

75 - Shadyside does not have the beautiful women of NYC. . .that's the sacrafice of living in Pittsburgh.

133, seriously, elie clearly hit a nerve. all these morons threatening to never come back to this site again - it is hilarious.

keep telling the truth elie.

all this being said, texas is a ttt armpit with no culture, so let's not argue it is a substitute.

NYC is overpriced, but the price is coming down.

If you are just starting out, you are not yet in the bracket that is paying higher taxes. But you will pay less for a house or an apartment. And less in mortgage interest. So as long as you still have a job paying $160K as a new lawyer, you are better off than last year.

And if you are fortunate enough to be in the higher tax bracket -- well, you are probably making a lot more than you would in Houston. (That's pronounced -- Hugh-ston)

Seriously, folks, NYC was never "all that" even before Obama's socialist revolution got started. Unless this country comes to its senses, NYC is going to resemble Detroit in oh, so many ways, especially related to personal safety amidst an increasingly desperate and crime-pays undersociety that is growing and growING and GROWING

133, seriously, elie clearly hit a nerve. all these morons threatening to never come back to this site again - it is hilarious.

keep telling the truth elie.

all this being said, texas is a ttt armpit with no culture, so let's not argue it is a substitute.

142 - NYC women are so overrated. i am sick of the bohemian chic bs. we've all seen the "real housewives of NYC". yech. give me a carolina girl any day.

To answer your question - No.

And for the same exact reason that there are Vault rankings, US New & World Report rankings, etc - prestige.
There is still a certain perceived prestige in living in NYC.

It's the same reason people gloat over working at a V5, V10, whatever. People LIKE being able to say they work in NYC. So until that perceived prestige and/or the value we, as attorneys and our clients place on prestige, then NYC will always be a viable market.

And no, I don't live in NYC, but I did at one point in my life.

To answer your question - No.

And for the same exact reason that there are Vault rankings, US New & World Report rankings, etc - prestige.
There is still a certain perceived prestige in living in NYC.

It's the same reason people gloat over working at a V5, V10, whatever. People LIKE being able to say they work in NYC. So until that perceived prestige and/or the value we, as attorneys and our clients place on prestige, then NYC will always be a viable market.

And no, I don't live in NYC, but I did at one point in my life.

Shut da hell up or i'll send yerrrrr ass ta Benson Hurst!

This post and these comments are pretty incredible. It's easy to live on $145K in NYC, but you won't be able to live like someone making $190K/year. If you don't like living in a small apartment or being in crowded areas, don't live in NYC. I like it. You don't. Fine by me; not everyone has to love New York. As someone who grew up in Manhattan, crowded streets, small apartments, and general dirtiness simply don't bother me. I've lived in five different cities so far, and the only cities I would consider settling in are those that are comparably metropolitan to NYC (for example, the major cities in Europe and Asia). There are tons of very cheap and very fun restaurants, bars, and shows in this city. $145K might be rough if you spend all your time buying people drinks at douchey ibanker nightclubs, but there are so many other options.

I have little sympathy for young associates who whine about not being able to live in Manhattan and the cost of living. I'm a relatively recent grad (junior midlevel), but I went to law school later than most, and lived my entire life in the NY area.

Unlike many of my colleagues at my prior, large firm job, I had no lord of the manner mentality, nor any lemming like need to march in idiotic lock step with my cohorts. I found a great deal on a one bedroom in Brooklyn; not outer Brooklyn, but just 3 stops from Manhattan. Even if I hadn't found a great deal that allowed me to live alone, I'd just have found a place with a apt mate and had basically the same rent. It's a no-frills, non-brownstone place. But it's clean, there's no bugs, and I have enough personal space. What more do you need?

I graduated with nearly $150k in debt, and $1225/month loan payments. Guess what, I made ends meet. In fact, I saved over $100k in two years, by busting my ass and qualifying for all bonuses, including the special bonus.

Then, I got laid off over last summer. Guess what? No crisis for me. I had that $100k to rely on for awhile (and fortunately some severance). I hadn't gone crazy with my new salary, so I had no expenses besides rent, my loans and normal stuff.

Now, I found a job, for about half what a big firm NY entry-level associate made in the good times. And guess what? I'll still make ends meet.

Why can't you afford to live in New York? Well, unless something really bad happened to you, or childcare to pay for, it's because you're a useless tool who thinks you're entitled to what used to be called an Upper East Side lifestyle. You are a useless tool who probably, at heart, still harbor suburban lifestyle expectations. This is a tough town. You know what's happening? You are being weeded out. You were never meant to live in New York to begin with. If you truly valued the cultural aspects of the city over other things, you'd have figured out a way to stay here. Go live in your Houston condo and be happy. New York won't miss you.

In the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, he mentions that at one point during the great depression, half of the members of the Manhattan bar association were on public assistance.

But things came back.

Obama has caused more damage to this country than Osama could have ever dreamed of. Just sense the panic and fear in these posts.

140 = Elie's mum

Houston is gross. Stop saying its some kind of alternative to Chi/NY/DC. I lived there. Having escaped it, luckily, before falling victim to its awful public schools (Memorial doesn't count if you are not rich enough to live near it), massive crime, flloods, refinery explosions, giant flying cockroaches, etc., is a major accomplishment of my life. It's cheap, that's it.

And don't regale me with tales of the useless tram/train with the water jets that spray over it, apparently to entertain the legion of homeless people you whizz by, who the only occupants of downtown on a weekend, and the revitalizing downtown. Building some "lofts" in a decrepit downtown doesn't make it an urban oasis. Yes I know there are lots of hot clubs with chemical smoke and strict no-sneakers policies where football players go. Don't care.

And don't raise Rice Village. It's got natural trees, and is apparently devoid of strip clubs and pawnshops, but that's the only place in the city to maintain that claim. And you can only visit the disgusting Galleria so many times before decide that joining the throng of of cough syrup swilling teens and bleach blonde trophy wives is not your scenario for Sunday afternoon idyll, or before you lose your hearing.

147 - Still, it's hard to walk a block in NYC without seeing a beautiful woman. You may see one a weekend in Pittsburgh if lucky. Plus it's like 75/25 guys/girls in the city.

If you want to live in socialist hell, then by all means move to (or stay in) New York. I'm sure you'll get all sorts of satisfaction looking at all the taxes taken out of your pay to support all those statist moochers off the government teet ... and wonder why they still want to rob you, mug you, rape you, pee on your doorstep, ruin your clothes on the subway, and otherwise make you feel oh-so-good about voting for Obama.

yuppies out. get out of NY, we don't want you here anyway.

This article is right on point. The cost of living in NYC continues to rise, layoffs continue hourly in all sectors of the workforce, and tuition contnues to sky-rocket. The NYC market is prime for a collapse similar to when building owners walked away from their buildings and the city took over ownership. Following that, Manhattan became very undesireable. I'm talking hookers and drug addicts all over Times Square. Forget about the real estate "bubble burst" problems, we should be bracing for an all out implosion. It will be the new "shot heard 'round the world."

Living in NYC is beginning to look like feeding a dog caviar. What a waste.

Two words.

Staten. Island.

BUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Houston = large home, fancy car, year-round golf, cash for vacations, and being able to save for retirement.

NYC = herpes, public urination, and getting mugged on the subway.

I agree that in other cities there is not as much cool stuff on which to spend your money, so your money goes farther.

Sure, if you worked in Houston, you could afford a broadway show, if there were any.

Where's the Dean's Cup post-game coverage, Elie?

- CLS 2L Sad Stud

Who is Annabel Vartanian?

151 - you are sooooo right, man. i mean, there is this great little dive wine bar around the corner that is just like this little undiscovered gem that nobody but me knows about. i just want it to stay a secret because like it is sooooo awesome and the tourists or ibankers would ruin it. i know all the cool hip spots where all the boho artists hang out, and we jhave the most vibrant and interesting and exciting and fulfilling lives out of anyone anywhere. i would not trade NYC and it's boho subculture for anything at all. i'm with ya brother.

hey, wanna meet up this weekend for a game of zagat bingo? (we flip through or zagat guide and go to the place that we randomly open to first! it'll be super fun, dood!)

i really hate you as a blogger, elie. when you have nothing good to write about, you don't dig, you throw out fear-mongering flame bait. you really suck.

counting down the days 'til you are laid off,

loyal ATL reader

157 - Move to DC. There are Sooo many women that they have to boyfriend share.

29 does indeed suck. No argument here

161

I would rather live in a homeless shelter in manhattan than live in Shaolin.

First of all, these comments about not being able to live very comfortably in New York on $160K a year are utterly and completely absurd, especially in light of the DRASTIC decreases in rents right now. With bankers no longer propping up the market, the city is becoming much more affordable (even with the fare hike...come on folks, you'll be pay an extra $20+ to ride what will still be one of the best mass transit systems in the country and in the world - that's still less than gas and car insurance would cost you elsewhere and there's more at your fingertips). Maybe it's because I am a simple person, but I am very comfortable. I am able to live in a good sized apartment in a full service building. I am handily able to make payments on my student loans, make contributions to a 401K, and save for an emergency fund. And this is all without sacrificing the ability to buy things that I want, have great dinners out with friends and enjoying the city culture generally. No, I do not try to eat a places like Babbo, Megu, DavidBurke and Donatella on a regular basis (that's unhealthy anyway), but it's New York city - you don't HAVE to pay a lot to get great food and have a wonderful time! Sure, work keeps me plenty freakin' busy (I billed north of 200 hours this month, thank god...). But I've still got time for a life.

And no, I'm not one of those prestige whores. If I ever lost my job, I would have no qualms about going back down South to stay with my family until I got back on my feet.

If you're smart with your money and are not trying to "ball" all the freakin' time, you can absolutely have a very comfortable life here in Manhattan, and it doesn't even require a salary of $160K a year.

160 is right. NYC before Giuliani cleaned up the streets was a cesspool.

154 is right. Osama was easy on NYC compared to what Obama and his lemmings are doing to it and are going to do to it and, especially, the blue states where the nanny state is going to collapse because there are not enough producers left to fund the pie-in-the-sky visions of milk-and-honey-through-the-goverment-teet fantasies of all the idiots who voted last fall to transform America from exceptional to despicable.

I'm a first year in NYC, still employed at 160K. Terrified as I see friends get laid-off from top firms who graduated with me from a T14 LS. I pay $3,200 a month in rent and utilities, $1,700 a month in loans, $320 car payment, $100 for car insurance, $140 for my phone, $300 to my firm for summer loan, $200+ for medical and denta. After taxes,I've got just a little pocket money left.

I have to beg for work at work, and when it comes it comes in Tsunami waves that almost kill me. However, I'm so grateful for the work, I don't say a word. Instead I come home at night and fall into bed, sleep being my only solace.

What happened? Will it change? Is there any hope? All those years of college, followed by three grueling, lonely years at Law School, followed by studying immediately for the bar, followed by that hideous exam, followed by sweating,"DId I pass, I know I didn't" (I did) Followed by a vacation that was ruined as I was in constant angst about not passing. Then I came home, found an apartment moved in and finally I was ready to go be a man of the city. I gladly reported to work. It was like doing a Swan Dive into an empty pool. My heart and mind swirled. What? What? What? I'm saying that less now, but the what is still there, but it's being droned out by a sadness that I'm not wanting to feel. Is the city over? I was born here. Went to to school here. Living below 14th Street all my life, I think the city broke its heart on 911. Nothing has been the same since. Our game is off. Every man for himself became the rule after that. Just try driving across 14th Street. No one pays attention to lights or rules anymore. Anarchy everywhere. Bernie Madoff? There's thousands of them. And young lawyers? We're just, at least I was just trying to enter a profession where I could do honorable work,be a contributing member of the city's life. live where I've always lived and support myself and a family. When I was growing up all the most respected, and some of the nicest, fathers around were lawyers.
I wanted to be one of them.

116- keep telling yourself that. Enjoy your weekend...in your miserable office.

Don't live in Manhattan and your problems are solved. Say you live on York, your walk to your midtown office is not significantly shorter than my subway ride, but I get to have a car, live in a 1000sq foot apartment (for less than you pay for your walk-in closet), put 20% of my check into my 401k and put a nice dent into my [undergraduate] student loans. Common sense people.
As for NYC being dead? Elie, what are you thinking? If NYC didn't 'die' in the 70's and 80's then it surely won't now.

Also, Chicago just got Jay Cutler. The Bears will actually have somebody good under center.

Bear down, Chicago Bears,
Make every play
Pave the way to victory!
Bear down, Chicago Bears,
Put up a fight
With a might so fearlessly!

We'll never forget the day you thrilled the nation
With your T formation
Bear down, Chicago Bears,
And let them know why you're wearing the crown,
You're the pride and joy
Of Illinois
Chicago Bears, bear down!

157,

That is just not true. As of 2007 there were 90 men for every 100 women in NYC. And in lower Manhattan there are 126 men for every 100 women. http://empirezone.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/podcast-downtown-gender-gap/

Outside of statistical problems I just disagree with your assertion that NYC women are for the most part attractive. I don't think you are going to find a hot woman on every block. Yes, you are likely to see one attractive woman on the street, but think about how many women you walk by on the street in a given day in NYC.

This is silly. Of course New York is expensive, but it's a personal choice to want to live in a city that offers the cultural opportunities, restaurants, people etc. and it's certainly worth it to me. If you'd rather trade those things for a nice house, move to Houston. Where's the debate?

152,

151 here. Seems like we more or less share the same perspective. Having grown up in NYC I simply can't imagine settling in any other part of the US. It's not a matter of whether NYC is "worth it" or not, because NYC is the only place in this country (I've lived in the Midwest, the West Coast, and abroad) where I feel truly comfortable. If people think NYC is dirty, expensive, has shitty weather, and is disgustingly crowded—well, they're probably right. And they're welcome to leave. I still love this city. And, for those of us who remember '80s NYC, it's pretty much paradise right now.

As great as these posts about how bad times are, I'm surprised that ATL is not covering the landmark Iowa Supreme Court decision today : http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090403/NEWS/90403010

158, 152 here. Doubt you ever lived here, or even visited much. "Statist moochers" who want to mug me? Are you kidding? NY is safer than almost any large, or even small city in this country. Manhattan has to be one of the safest urban spaces in the world. And as for things getting worse crime-wise because of the economy. The city recently reported that for the first two months of the year, crime FELL a further 10% or so. If anything, our "statist" inclinations are probably keeping NY from being the Hobbesian hellhole in which you may be residing, or whatever crime hellhole is nearest to your suburban hellhole.

171, i totally agree. NYC has the most amazing bohemian vibe to it, and boho vibes are SO in right now! the era of bling is dead, and the era of boho chic is HERE! NYC is going to be ground zero forever baby, FOREVER. i mean, no other city in the WORLD has as many takeout joints and cool bodegas where you can get a box of wine and a pack of smokes for $40!

158, 152 here. Doubt you ever lived here, or even visited much. "Statist moochers" who want to mug me? Are you kidding? NY is safer than almost any large, or even small city in this country. Manhattan has to be one of the safest urban spaces in the world. And as for things getting worse crime-wise because of the economy. The city recently reported that for the first two months of the year, crime FELL a further 10% or so. If anything, our "statist" inclinations are probably keeping NY from being the Hobbesian hellhole in which you may be residing, or whatever crime hellhole is nearest to your suburban hellhole.

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

JAY CUTLER SUX

right now I live in NY on an income of 50k/yr on the upper westside but Im still fine...NY will always be a destination for legal talent cos all the jobs are here!

Its fine if I want to work for Hicks and Gunshooters but if I want a real job, I gotta work here...or maybe London or Hong Kong. Also if I want to transfer out of NY it's definitely better having gone through here I feel

NY is like Skadden, put in your time and get out but it's definitely better having gone through here

44,

Yeah DC has some humid summers but I sweat just as much in Manhattan whenever I visit friends during the summer.

As for crime -- this is not the Marion Barry days. If you live in Dupont Circle, Foggy Bottom, or anything west of Rock Creek Park you will be fine. Even Logan Circle, U Street, and Chinatown are almost there in being very low crime. Downtown is safe (where all the law jobs are going to be). And there are plenty of places in VA and MD that are short commutes that are very safe and suburban.

Yeah Anacostia and other crappy parts of DC are hellholes but you will not be living there or going to them for work. So their crime rate is irrelevant.

BTW - whoever said that Georgia has good weather needs to get a clue. Sure, the winters are mild and spring comes a heck of a lot faster (think 60s and 70s by March). But the storms that come in the spring and summer are BRUTAL (we're talking about tornado producing storms here on the regular). The humidity is horrific (with NO sea breeze to take it away unless you are on the coast). And you WILL get hit by at least 1 to 2 tropical storms or category 1 or 2 hurricane. And if you have allergies, forget about it...the streets are often yellow all over with it and you will be miserable. Atlanta also has some of the worst air quality behind LA. Plus, did I forget to mention all the f*cking gnats????

Philly is the armpit of the USA.

I hope all the bitches who complain about making "only" $145K do leave the city.

158, 152 here. Doubt you ever lived here, or even visited much. "Statist moochers" who want to mug me? Are you kidding? NY is safer than almost any large, or even small city in this country. Manhattan has to be one of the safest urban spaces in the world.

And as for things getting worse crime-wise because of the economy...The city recently reported that for the first two months of the year, crime FELL a further 10% or so. If anything, our "statist" inclinations are probably keeping NY from being the Hobbesian hellhole in which you may be residing, or whatever crime hellhole is nearest to your suburban hellhole.

Are taxes too high in NY? Yes. Even with Bloomberg's many reforms, this is a poorly run city from a fiscal perspective, and the state government is even worse. There is much waste, and bad policy choices. And the MTA is a travesty. So I don't think NY is perfect, and if it's not for you, that's fine. But when I read some of these posts, I laugh at the ignorance.

Rents and real estate prices are crashing in NYC and they are going to continue to plummet. Don't sign long-term leases without negotiating a 60 day right of termination.

If you were lucky enough to keep your job, there will be many opportunities coming up. And 145k very well might go further than 160 did in this city just 2 years ago right now.

170-

After your salary is cut, it will be the only place you can afford to live.

The Ferry ... the dump ... Your fate is sealed.

Staten Island!

161

Elie, I've seen stupid articles, but c'mon. If New York is done, then Boston, Chicago, and LA ought to liquidate.

I live in Mclean, VA and am wealthier than everyone on this site.

Suck my Venable.

177 - ever been to Pittsburgh? Enough said. This whole string of comments started as a reply to 75 and his Shadyside mansion with his beautiful wife.

No one comes to NYC to make it rich as an associate. You come here for the experience - both work and life.

Shearman is offering a deferral program. All those who doubted me when I told you the other day...well, I told you so.

exaggerated and naïve

You know Elie, until you actually LIVE somewhere you really can't say that you don't understand why people would live there. It's called "this place is fun and exciting" and there really isn't a pricetag on that.

Proof that NYC lawyers don't have much work to do - 195 comments in an hour and a half (which I haven't read).

If you were in DC, you'd have spent your morning billing.

187 must live below the gnat line and not in atlanta (see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gnat%20line ). He/she is also a pansy. Probably grew up where a little thunderstorm was like the apocalyse. Now Alabama or Oklahoma? THOSE places get some mean-ass storms. Atlanta, not much.

Atlanta has wonderful weather. No worse than DC in July & August and better than most anywhere else east of the Rockies the rest of the year.

If all the people in the Northeast had any clue how great it is to live in Atlanta, it would be horrible, so I better keep quiet about all the other charms ... but one. Take one trip to an SEC football game, and you will NEVER think NYC has more beautiful women than virtually anywhere in the South.

Obviously NYC is dead. Just like it died after 9/11. Just like it died during the crack epidemic in the early 1990s. Just like it died when it went bankrupt in the 1970s. Just like it died after the riots in the late 1960s.

All the 2Ls and first year associates on this site -- and Elie -- are just soooooo smart, with such great ability to analyze macro events and to predict the future. Especially the future of things like New York City.

This "news" has enlightened me. Thank you Elie and the rest of you. Time to move to another city because NYC is over!!!!!!

180 - Not a big deal.

There will just be a constitutional amendment on the next statewide ballot and then they won't have gay marriage anymore.

166,

It's hilarious that you think my reference to "very cheap and very fun restaurants" in NYC is pretentious, boho hipsterdom. Believe it or not, there are a lot of normal yet inexpensive and tasty restaurants in this city. Sorry you can't enjoy one of the best parts about being here.

152

152/190 - I think 158 was looking ahead a few years, as the article encourages all to do. It may not look bleak to you now in New York, but wait til those taxes kick in and the liberals keep going back for more. Then 158's look-ahead will look more realistic than your myopic view.

NY sucks, DC is obviously the best market. Recession proof.

171 - what is your debt burden from school? Are you making minimum payments?

I live in Mclean, VA and am wealthier than everyone on this site.

Suck my Venable.

What whinny tripe! NYC is the land of opportunity especially for the young and ambitious. Yes you will make initial sacrifices, but you will also receive incredible opportunities that aren't available elsewhere.

For centuries Manhattan has been the destination of the ambitious

New York will never be done.

173 - you pay 3200 in rent a month? man did you get hosed - what penthouse in tribeca did you "fall in love with"?

and why do you have a car?

and why do you pay 140 a month for your phone? how much peak time calling could you possibly do? use your office line, dummy! Besides, at 160k a year, you must be far too busy to make that many calls, right? oh wait...

-4 years in West Chelsea

204/152, Believe it or not, there are a lot of normal yet inexpensive and tasty restaurants ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES. Sorry you think that having a few in NYC justifies an otherwise pitiful lifestyle.

23 and 42 have me by the heart strings.

23 and 42 have me by the heart strings.

DC was the best real estate investment, I ever made. Really enjoy the government paying my DC mortgage and letting me live mortgage free in my suburban midwestern house.

BLING IS DEAD. BOHO TRASHBAG CHIC IS IN. NEW YORK IS KING!

Obama's coming tax increases that will put the effective tax rate at around 55% for NYC biglaw associates will be the nail in the coffin for NYC.

right on, 189. NYC will be such a nicer place when all these big law associates who just have to pay for the $200 month gym, the weekly manicures, the doorman apartment, etc. just get the fuck out. This never was your city and we don't want you, so leave.

DC -- As metropolitan as NYC but with nicer subways, lower rent, more work, and the entertainment is free.

Even hollywood has picked DC over NYC. What was the last major movie to bother to film in NY? Die Hard 40? I got to chill with Brangelina last weekend at the Hay Adams, so kiss that.

216 - you're right. It's amazing how many purportedly smart people on this site don't have enough sense to realize that.

If they have cars, of course they're Priuses. Wonder if they've removed the Obama stickers yet? They would if they ventured outside a blue state, where people are mad as hell already and aren't going to give up without a fight

219 - the hay adams is a dump that is literally falling down (they have shut down an entire wing of the hotel as structurally unsound). the only reason obama stayed there was proximity to 1600.

DC has even more aholes than NYC.

171 - you are an ignorant loser who has no idea about mass transit systems elsewhere in the world...NY mass transit SUX, maybe you should spend your money on traveling to know what's going outside your little box

"the cost of living in NYC continues to skyrocket"

Elie - At least consider gathering information before publishing your musings. Rents are plummetting in NYC, landlords are paying broker fees for renters. The subway might go up, but it looks about as likely that that deal will be blocked.

220 here - correction, 217 is right

220, people in red states being mad about this stuff isn't new. We have always hated socialism.

A serious question: if you're living in NYC making 70k as a government lawyer, what kind of lifestyle does that get you? Is Manhattan out of the question?

185 - UWS on 50K? You must have 5 roomates sharing a stuiod or you are living in a dumpster.

185 - UWS on 50K? You must have 5 roomates sharing a stuio or you are living in a dumpster.

Living on the north shore of long island = 25 minute commute to the city, lower rent, and no city income tax.

225 - the difference now is that socialism isn't just a notion in the mind of a kid learning from a communist in hawaii, it's becoming the law of the land

NYC to half-Latham severance

226, yes. Live in Brooklyn. Much nicer and cheaper. The right areas are very clean.

225 - and you have alays been too ignorant to read a book and know that "capitalism" is not a syonomym for "deregualted everything" and you have always been too ignorant to realiZe that calling a democrat like obama a "socialist" simply outs you as an ignorant moron with no grasp of political ideology or theory.

Has there been anymore news about the 240,000 New Yorkers moving to DC to deal with the financial mess? I can't wait till the leases are up!

171 - you are an ignorant loser who has no idea about mass transit systems elsewhere in the world...NY mass transit SUX, maybe you should spend your money on traveling to know what's going outside your little box

233 - uh-oh, somebody calling you the red you are. maybe you're an ACORN troll here?

I was deferred from a NYC law job and they are offering to pay for a year in public interest. There is a job fair in Newark next Wednesday (April 8) that my roommate and I are going to, it is for deferred associates who want to apply for a public interest job with a bunch of organizations. (we applied on this website: www.vljnj.org) We will get to work in public interest for a year, which can be interestingand we will have an income (although not quite what I was expecting to deal with these obscene loans I have to start paying in December)-- we are way better off than other folks who had their offer rescinded, and we will still earn more than the average non profit attorney. And, still get to come home to the NYC area where I grew up and settle down. NYC will never die-- there are so many levels of practice and different types of firms, I just want to be where I worked hard to be. The year of practice experience at a non profit is way better than doing doc review to pass the time!

Milwaukee in the HOOOOUUUUUSEEEE! 2,200 sq. ft., a sausage and a Buick!

If someone has 175k in law school debt, and a 160k (soon to be 125?) salary, they are not well off. This is why the IRS code needs to change --> increase the caps on the maximum student loan deductions, and get rid of the AGI phase out (which starts at 55k!). On the other hand, if someone went to law school on their parent's or the school's dime, they don't get the benefit of the deduction.

Let me show you Derelicte! It is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful city so unique.

it's gonna be interesting to see how many democrats wake up and realize what they did to their kids' and grandkids' country when they elected obama and his apparachiks ... that is, if they didn't kill their kids in the womb first

NYC will never die, but markets like Chicago and DC have definitely closed the gap. The DC market isn't recession proof, but it is definitely recession resistant and people stampede back and forth between private and government practice as economics dictate. You can buy a great townhouse or single family home in northern VA, inside the beltway, for the same price as a 1-bedroom walkup with a fire escape view in NYC. If you have kids, nearly everything is free - national zoo, Mall, Smithsonian, etc. And let's be honest, everyone secretly loves the crusty, 1960s era Virginia accented senior partners we have to deal with. Try wearing a dueling blouse in the People's Republic of NYC and it'll probably trigger a $3k tax.

1) 225 posts in less than two hours means NYC associates have sh*t to do work-wise.

2) Cities like Chicago and Boston have just as much stuff to do as NYC, but are 1/100 as annoying and self-indulgent about it. Boston, in particular, has just as many smart and creative people, per capita, as NYC, but without the obnoxious, mono-cultural, douchebag finance types. I will take that any day over NYC's "plethora" of intelligence.

3) NYC is as bankrupt as California. The antidote is massive deflation, but that won't work because Cali and NYC are not separate countries from the U.S. Unfortunately, NYC will sink to the bottom of the heap for a while, and then recover, hopefully without the finance types.

49 = bear-fucker

For all of these associates who claim to be so smart and entitled to BigLaw in NYC, you would think you would have the "smarts" to live in Queens for 1/4 the rent. I had a girlfriend who lived two stops out of Manhattan on the N. She shared a huge two bedroom, pays only $800 a month. Three minute walk to subway, five minute ride to Manhattan. The neighborhood was very safe and clean. Why would anyone consider paying that outrageous Manhattan rent? Pay off your loans with the difference, or actually save.

desire to have kids is what drove my wife and me to move from NYC to one of the handful of other american cities I'd consider living in. moving to jersey or westchester was just not in the cards for us so we decided to jump ship.

solace in the windy city...

read this and weep, all you who think hopenchange was a good idea: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123871911466984927.html

in Japan, sneezing is disruptive

yes, NYC is done, and everyone who wants a big house with a 2-car garage should leave to Jersey, to DC, or any other place resembling suburban hell. You can even move to Staten Island, for all I care.

on another hand, it'll be your loss if you leave. the NYC real-estate market is correcting itself, with rent and sales reductions around 15-30% in Manhattan. By the end of the year, you just might be able to put a down payment on a 1-bedroom in Manhattan with your $145k salary, if you save enough.

218 - enjoy Williamsburg when all of these bankers and biglaw associates leave. Don't worry, there will be plenty of tax revenue to pay policemen to keep the Bed Stuy unsavories from coming four blocks to rape and mutilate you.

Just move to Houston already. It's not that bad.

250, you fail to look ahead to the MUCH higher level of taxes and MUCH lower level of services, and the likely MUCH higher crime rate that will characterize NYC in a few years, because of obamanomics

If your goal is to pay off your loans, start in Atlanta or Houston. Same $160K, a third the cost of living, no tax.

can anyone tell me how to cite the FRCP?

248 -AMT will be indexed. The key is appearing "poor" on paper!

255 - Fed.R.Civ.P. using large/small caps.

funny, but sad, because it's coming true ... from a month ago: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/laughing-at-the-contradictions-of-socialism-in-america/

225 - and you have alays been too ignorant to read a book and know that "capitalism" is not a syonomym for "deregualted everything" and you have always been too ignorant to realiZe that calling a democrat like obama a "socialist" simply outs you as an ignorant moron with no grasp of political ideology or theory.

Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten
From the Battery to the top of Manhattan
Asian, Middle-Eastern and Latin
Black, White, New York you make it happen

Brownstones, water towers, trees, skyscrapers
Writers, prize fighters and Wall Street traders
We come together on the subway cars
Diversity unified, whoever you are
We're doing fine on the One and Nine line
On the L we're doin' swell
On the number Ten bus we fight and fuss
'Cause we're thorough in the boroughs and that's a must
I remember when the Duece was all porno flicks
Running home after school to play PIX * 1
At lunch I'd go to Blimpies down on Montague Street
And hit the Fulton Street Mall for the sneakers on my feet
Dear New York I hope you're doing well
I know a lot's happen and you've been through hell
So, we give thanks for providing a home
Through your gates at Ellis Island we passed in droves

Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten
From the Battery to the top of Manhattan
Asian, Middle-Eastern and Latin
Black, White, New York you make it happen

The L.I.E. the B.Q.E
Hippies at the band shell with the L.S.D.
Get my BVD's from VIM
You know I'm reppin' Manhattan the best I can
Stopped off at Bleeker Bob's got thrown out
Sneakin' in at 4:00 am after going out
You didn't rob me in the park at Dianna Ross
But everybody started looting when the light went off
From the South South Bronx on out to Queens Bridge
From Hollis Queens right down to Bay Ridge
From Castle Hill to the Lower East Side
From 1010 WINS to Live At Five
Dear New York this is a love letter
To you and how you brought us together
We can't say enough about all you do
'Cause in the city were ourselves and electric too

Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten
From the Battery to the top of Manhattan
Asian, Middle-Eastern and Latin
Black, White, New York you make it happen

Shout out the South Bronx where my mom hails from
Right next to High Bridge across from Harlem
To the Grand Concourse where my mom and dad met
Before they moved on down to the Upper West
I see you're still strong after all that's gone on
Life long we dedicate this song
Just a little something to show some respect
To the city that blends and mends and tests
Since 911 we're still livin'
And lovin' life we've been given
Ain't nothing gonna take that away from us
Were lookin' pretty and gritty 'cause in the city we trust
Dear New York I know a lot has changed
2 towers down but you're still in the game
Home to many rejecting no one
Accepting peoples of all places, wherever they're from

Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten
From the Battery to the top of Manhattan
Asian, Middle-Eastern and Latin
Black, White, New York you make it happen

Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten
From the Battery to the top of Manhattan
Asian, Middle-Eastern and Latin
Black, White, New York you make it happen

252- keep telling yourself that.

260 -

The stars at night, are big and bright,
deep in the heart of Texas,
The prairie sky is wide and high,
deep in the heart of Texas.
The sage in bloom is like perfume,
deep in the heart of Texas,
Reminds me of, the one I love,
deep in the heart of Texas.

The coyotes wail, along the trail,
deep in the heart of Texas,
The rabbits rush, around the brush,
deep in the heart of Texas.
The cowboys cry, "Ki-yip-pee-yi,"
deep in the heart of Texas,
The dogies bawl, and bawl and bawl,
deep in the heart of Texas.

elie,

"I understand that a lot of people have trouble believing that $145K doesn't take you far in NYC. But I think most people understand that a lawyer making whatever they make is doing a lot better than your average Starbucks employee."

whaaa?

257 -

thank ya

I loved NYC but the socialists slowly strangled it to death. I knew it was dead when a great big one fingered salute to everyone that hates it didn't immediately rise from the ashes of WTC. The leeches and parasites killed a mighty host. Obama plans to bring that sort of change to a city near you.

I was born in Manhattan, got stealthed in December, and moved to California. New York is dead. Think London in the 70s but worse. New York used to have a more diversified economy. Now it is based on finance / financial services and real estate development / speculation. Good luck with that while I catch some rays and collect unemployment. Suckers.

265 - you're right. did you ever think the stuff in 258's linked article could ever be said about what used to be our exceptional country?

Do any of you here who voted for obama have regrets for what you've done? ANY of you? This is an anonymous site, so answering truthfully won't "out" you among your peers.

hey elie

why dont you get off your fat, lazy ass and do some research on recent real estate trends in nyc before you list it as a cause for concern. im not saying it isnt a valid concern, but .... wait, why am i telling you how to do your job again?

NYC was done three years ago.
You can't live there- even in the suburbs if you don't make 200k. Correction: you can but you won't eat well
or sleep too many nights.
I moved out

i regret that i only had but one vote to cast for obama.

Well, your money may go further and you may be able to have a big mcmansion but you have to live in Atlanta, Houston, Dallas etc. Not worth the trade off.

From http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/13/pf/six_fig_farthest/index.htm

The gross salary required to replicate $100,000 after adjusting for cost-of-living.

CITY SALARY
New York $205,426
San Francisco $179,034
Los Angeles $156,106
San Diego $149,384
Washington, D.C. $141,894
Boston $137,649
Chicago $126,929
Seattle $117,037
Atlanta $102,805
Denver $102,348
Cleveland $101,986
Milwaukee $101,478
Phoenix $97,976
Dallas $93,665
Charlotte $92,991
Houston $88,977

Economist Scott Moody on behalf of the Tax Foundation, using 2005 data from ACCRA. Not included are the effects of taxes and inflation, which can further alter the true value of a 6-figure salary.

* * * * * * * *

Granted, the data is a bit outdated, but it does give a sense as to how expensive Manhattan is for those who don't live here. I live in Manhattan and work at a top firm here. Even as a fourth year associate, it's still extraordinarily tough to save money, given the cost-of-living, loans, and taxes. Apparently that's because I only earn the equivalent of a little more than $100,000 with my base salary. While Manhattan offers a lot of opportunities and benefits, you also pay through the nose for them.

No 259, he is a socialist.

More importantly, he isn't an American citizen, and thus lacks the constitutional competency to hold his office.

Whatever you disgruntled NYers do, please do not come to Seattle or Portland.

272 - good post, but readers should also try to guess how much the tax increases to come in many of those states and cities (especially in obama states) will make those numbers rise in such places relative to cities in no tax (FL, TX) or low tax states whose electorates aren't going to be lemmings and follow obama down the drain

even worse - what about working for a firm that now pays MORE in Chicago than it does in NYC.

Maybe someone should write a story about that.

I wonder why no one has mentioned Boston as an alternative to NYC?

If the only way you measure your quality of life is as some sort of ratio of what you earn to what you spend, you don't deserve to take up space in NY anyways.

201 - This is 171 here. I'll bite - Atlanta does, for at least 9 months out of the year - have good weather. The summers are HORRIBLE there though, and I know because I lived there for FIVE years. Atlanta has definitely changed its stripes - much more cosmopolitan and each year, more and more interesting cultural aspects are added. It's a great city. But in terms of its mentality, I can't deal with it. It's still very small town in a lot of ways. Although, admittedly, to a certain extent, the counterbalance of conservatism there can be a good thing. I haven't ruled out ever going back down there. The one thing that keeps me from really seriously considering it is that the public transportation just SUCKS ASS in Atlanta. MARTA is awful unless you are going to the airport or work in downtown proper. And frankly, I do not ever want to live anywhere where having a car is pretty much mandatory.

However, if you want a city that has a slower pace, but still feels like a city and where you can enjoy a fairly cosmopolitan lifestyle for less, Atlanta is definitely the place to go.

274 - we'd only come to Seattle or Portland for the busted strippers anyway. What else do you all have out there?

277 - Massachusetts is going the way of NYC, so why bother. Make a rational decision (if you're not a socialist/communist) and get out of the Northeast.

Here's food for thought for those who may not have seen it: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjBlNjQyNzYzNzk2YjBhNjg4NDM2Y2I5MjJkMDYzNjQ=&w=MA==

Don't worry guys, everything in NYC will be better once Barack Obama and the New York State/City Democrats raise taxes on law firm partners. It's not like business owners will lay off people when confronted with lower take-home profits.

Yes We Can!

@173,

Your finances are a *mess*.

You can't afford 3200 rent. Move somewhere cheap or get a roommate (or better yet, get 2 of them).

Ditch the car ($420 for car+insurance in NYC? Are you insane?).

Ditch the phone (140? Are you kidding? Get a MetroPCS for $40/month unlimited phone/texting.)

Dont you have any common sense?

All you childless people, wait till you have to pay for nannies/private schools. The prices will sicken you (e.g. 25k/year for a nanny and another 20k/year for preschool... simultaneously!).

You cannot live well if you have a family of four on 160 k, unless you live a 2 hour commute out of manhattan, use, often mediocre public schools , choose the low-end health plan and drive a modest car. There's no glamour or riches to be had with that sort of life. Culture? How? It takes too long to get home to go to a play or the opera, and then what start driving home at eleven at night? If you can't afford to live where you work, your life will be little more than a life of middle class drudgery.

197 - support for Shearman deferral?

You cannot live well if you have a family of four on 160 k, unless you live a 2 hour commute out of manhattan, use, often mediocre public schools , choose the low-end health plan and drive a modest car. There's no glamour or riches to be had with that sort of life. Culture? How? It takes too long to get home to go to a play or the opera, and then what start driving home at eleven at night? If you can't afford to live where you work, your life will be little more than a life of middle class drudgery.

284/286 - you haven't even estimated what the higher taxes that are coming will do to make that drudgery into torture

284/286 - you haven't even estimated what the higher taxes that are coming will do to make that drudgery into torture

"where people are mad as hell already and aren't going to give up without a fight"

Give up what? What fight? The Nov 2008 election?!

Wasn't this about NYC?

272: very interesting, thanks. But even if your dollar goes further in Houston than anywhere else, it still isn't worth it. What a pit. It's not so much a city as it's a sprawling strip mall. Houston makes Philly look good, and that's saying something.

277: shhh! Do you really want the average ATL reader coming here??

Elie, I love you, but this is one of the lamest articles I've seen on ATL.
1) An underlying assumption in your article is that all that matters is the size of your residence. Lots of people, like myself, like NYC because of the lifestyle it provides. No other city in the US has more top rate restaurants, arts, sports, and concerts. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
2) Clearly, if you want to have a large residence and have your money go as far as possible then by all means move to Dallas or Charlotte or some other decent and not upscale city. The cost of living in NYC as compared to any other city is not open to debate, it is an empirical fact. There is simply a choice of where a person wants to live.
3) You also have another underlying assumption because you're straight. It's actually fair for you to have it and it's not offensive to me, but I will point it out. For me, as a gay male, NYC is a viewed as the promised land. The gay scene in NYC is the best in NYC, save maybe San Fran. I don't have to worry about being hate crimed, if i kiss my boyfriend in a bar people don't look at us with disdain, and I'm able to develop a really cool circle of gay friends (just cause we're all gay doesn't mean we all get along, and having the large concentration of gays in NYC makes it so much easier to make a circle of friends that share similar interests). So sure, I'll give up a 5 bedroom house (you can only sleep in one room at a time) in exchange for dignity and safety.

289 - the fight is not the 11/08 election, but about what has happened since ...

see 216's comment for how that's playing out in nyc

220's comment gives a sense of how the red states aren't going to go off the cliff with the blue states, at least without a fight ... maybe not on topic, but surely relevant because limbaugh's right - as echoed by 65 here - how many of the producers are really going to stay once those punitive taxes kick in? maybe some of them will fight alongside the red staters who saw this train wreck coming but weren't able to warn enough of the rest of you that it was about to take you with it

WHERE THE LAYOFFS AT?

ITS THE FIRST OF THA MONTH!!!!

What a piece of garbage. Bookmark to this site removed.

Here's what Obama did to the wall street ceos last week: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html

Think about it - that includes banks that didn't need or want TARP money but were blackmailed into taking it.

He won't stop there, given the power grabs of GM (Government Motors) and Geithner's desire to set the pay of non-executives too, and others' calls for limiting pay levels of all who work for publicly-traded companies. WAKE UP you fools!

He'll want to limit your compensation, too, then tax as much as he can of what's left.

Comments about other cities not having a Broadway show are stupid. Not considering that we can pay for it, not only say that they are going on in our town. Comments about having a terrible life in NY and say that if you cant handle it you dont deserve NY, are even more stupid. If you say that, you deserved to be laid off. Just be honest. NY is only worth it for a little while and, even in this case, only if you are very young, have very small debts and wants to have fun in the clubs and gain lots of experience in a short term. If you are a young lawyer living in NY, but it is not in this category, congratulations, you are a sucker. You would be much better in any place else. New Yorkers dont understand, because they live in their city and they cant afford to go out of it, sometimes because of money, sometimes because of work. So they think that others live like them. We have more money and less work. Therefore, enjoy your broadway show in NY and your layoffs!! I will enjoy my summer in Europe and my money!! When you become a Partner and can buy your first house, give me call. I will tell you where to invest in your own city...

Comments about other cities not having a Broadway show are stupid. Not considering that we can pay for it, not only say that they are going on in our town. Comments about having a terrible life in NY and say that if you cant handle it you dont deserve NY, are even more stupid. If you say that, you deserved to be laid off. Just be honest. NY is only worth it for a little while and, even in this case, only if you are very young, have very small debts and wants to have fun in the clubs and gain lots of experience in a short term. If you are a young lawyer living in NY, but it is not in this category, congratulations, you are a sucker. You would be much better in any place else. New Yorkers dont understand, because they live in their city and they cant afford to go out of it, sometimes because of money, sometimes because of work. So they think that others live like them. We have more money and less work. Therefore, enjoy your broadway show in NY and your layoffs!! I will enjoy my summer in Europe and my money!! When you become a Partner and can buy your first house, give me call. I will tell you where to invest in your own city...

Comments about other cities not having a Broadway show are stupid. Not considering that we can pay for it, not only say that they are going on in our town. Comments about having a terrible life in NY and say that if you cant handle it you dont deserve NY, are even more stupid. If you say that, you deserved to be laid off. Just be honest. NY is only worth it for a little while and, even in this case, only if you are very young, have very small debts and wants to have fun in the clubs and gain lots of experience in a short term. If you are a young lawyer living in NY, but it is not in this category, congratulations, you are a sucker. You would be much better in any place else. New Yorkers dont understand, because they live in their city and they cant afford to go out of it, sometimes because of money, sometimes because of work. So they think that others live like them. We have more money and less work. Therefore, enjoy your broadway show in NY and your layoffs!! I will enjoy my summer in Europe and my money!! When you become a Partner and can buy your first house, give me call. I will tell you where to invest in your own city...

291,

DC has a pretty good gay scene as well. Although you probably know that as I think 291 might be from David Lat. ;-)

NYU 3L here. I've lived on both coasts in a bunch of major cities, and some out of the way places too.

I think what people fail to realize about NYC, is not that it's expensive (which it is), it's that everything's twice as much, for half as much, and twice as irritating to boot. It's not the fact that your tiny studio is $2000 per month that kills you, it's that the building is falling apart, is 90 years old, with the last remodel in 1940, and you're on the 5th floor of a walkup. Then, so you can enjoy your hipster/bohemian paradise, you stroll on the sidewalks in the "village" where you have to make the Hobbesian choice of tripping over a homeless guy, stepping in designer dog crap, or venturing into the road to get run down by a dump truck going 45mph down a cobblestone street last repaired as an FDR work project for unemployed NYSE traders. And you think: how convenient these subways are! But you have to walk 15 minutes on either end shoulder to shoulder, dodging people on sidewalks intended for 1/10th the number of people and you're pissed by the time you get to work, or home, or anywhere at all. Assuming you got there at all, because the trains stop running every time it rains. In the meantime, your friends in [name anywhere other than Boston, DC, or SF] are paying $1000 and bitching about about how their appliances aren't stainless steel, while you don't even know anyone who has a dishwasher.

This place is an f-ing joke, the rest of ya'll can have it. The ship be sunk.

Let's face it, NYC was over after Paul O'Neil retired.

273 = Anthony Martin-Trigona

Here's what Obama did to the wall street ceos last week: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html

Think about it - that includes banks that didn't need or want TARP money but were blackmailed into taking it.

He won't stop there, given the power grabs of GM (Government Motors) and Geithner's desire to set the pay of non-executives too, and others' calls for limiting pay levels of all who work for publicly-traded companies. WAKE UP you fools!

He'll want to limit your compensation, too, then tax as much as he can of what's left.

300: Hobson's choice?

haha, great post 300. Although as someone very familiar with Boston, DC, and NYC, I can tell you that the other two, while expensive, don't even come close to being as bad as NYC in terms of paying more and getting less.

254, just to be clear: Atlanta market starting salaries are 145K, not 160K. But 145K is still a helluva lot of money there. You can buy a house within a couple miles or less of the office, pay off loans, and enjoy the suburbs feel even inside the perimeter (lots of old tree-lined streets). Even if you don't get the same sophistication of legal work (not saying you do or don't, it just seems to be the biggest argument made by the northeastern types), the trade-off of having a life outside of work is worth it to some of us.

I see a lot of NYC folks pissed off because they live in a toilet for a city.

You've already screwed up your state with Obama-like, blue state liberal economics - please do the rest of the country a favor and stay there. Don't move to other states because you'll only keep voting for the same stupid tax and spenders and screw our states up too. Look what you have already done to NH, NC, VA and FL...

That's the kind of change you voted for.

Thanks.

#286 and #291, you are both correct, to work in New York and live in New York s a blessing. Only here can you truly be yourself, which is after all, priceless and worth whatever it costs. Bu tit does take much more money to live here. Going out is part of the culture: Straight or gay, mingling in groups is what we do. We need stimulaton. And, unlike our PS brothers who get to fight the bad guys and get off on that, we Big Law guys often do tedious, dull work, so we need to go out all the more. 160K doesn't go far no matter where or how you live, in the city, or right out of it. Get real. To keep the law machines going they need us to bill hours and not be miserable in our work, so they have to keep the pay in relationship to the cost of living here which has always been more than the rest of the nation. But then again NYC offers so much more than the rest of the nation,even if she's on her last legs, it's worth it.

Elie's right! Forget the "Dead Cat Bounce" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_bounce), it's time to learn the "Dead Cat Boogie-Woogie"! For lawyers, get your Manolo's and Ferragamo's ready, because here are the steps:

1-2--clients are few--

3-4--associates head for the door--

5-6--time to move back to the 'sticks--

7-8--Manhattan can wait--

9-10--until a new financial "innovation" is developed, and we all move back there again!! (http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-et-rutten6-2009mar06,0,7099835.story)

300: Congrats on making it to 3rd year. Don't let the cop ticket you on your way out of our cesspool next month.

What about Anabelle Vartanian?

NYC is, and always will be, the AWESOMEEST city ever.

All the folks in Houston and Chicago are spending 3 hours a day in their BMWs commuting from their McMansions. I'd take rising subway fares and falling rents in NYC any day.

#286 and #291, you are both correct, to work in New York and live in New York s a blessing. Only here can you truly be yourself, which is after all, priceless and worth whatever it costs. Bu tit does take much more money to live here. Going out is part of the culture: Straight or gay, mingling in groups is what we do. We need stimulaton. And, unlike our PS brothers who get to fight the bad guys and get off on that, we Big Law guys often do tedious, dull work, so we need to go out all the more. 160K doesn't go far no matter where or how you live, in the city, or right out of it. Get real. To keep the law machines going they need us to bill hours and not be miserable in our work, so they have to keep the pay in relationship to the cost of living here which has always been more than the rest of the nation. But then again NYC offers so much more than the rest of the nation,even if she's on her last legs, it's worth it.

Strictly speaking in terms of associate's salaries, New York hasn't made sense in years - at least not since the big law expansion into the south and west. There are two reasons for an out-of-stater to come to New York and both revolve around career possibilities.

First, you enter biglaw with an absolute burning desire to become a partner on day one which requires you to say goodbye to your friends, family and sanity and in about ten to fifteen years, you will actually accumulate a lot of wealth.

The other reason is that you want to grind out 4-6 years and then move on to a very well paying 9-5 (in-house, bank etc) in market that you really like. No questions will be asked about your qualifications and any lesser market will welcome you like the second coming .

Either reason is perfectly acceptable but otherwise young law students should be advised that YOU WILL NOT BE RICH AFTER WORKING SIX MONTHS IN BIGLAW. For example, even without law school debt you cannot do more than two out of the following three activities on that NYC Salary: a) Save Money, b) live in an unquestionably nice apartment (one that includes central air but excludes mice), 3) own a car. Outside of NYC, this is very possible. The reason for this is in large part due to the outrageous tax structure in NYC. I have a friend in Atlanta - he makes $10,000 less than me a year. He gets a little more than a hundred more than each paycheck.

Short of the absolute economic debacle we are all experiencing (and those still practicing are very luck), NYC youngin's need to start at $190K really to live a life close to their southern counterparts.

303 - imagine how those bankers and others being limited in pay by Obama are themselves, or via Geithner's goons, are going to limit the rates of pay to LAW FIRMS working on their deals ...

thereby putting further downward pressure on LAW FIRM revenues ...

thereby putting further pressure on LAW FIRMS to eliminate associate positions, curtail hiring, cut salaries and limit bonuses ...

and otherwise make the topic of this article all the more relevant to all who have been reading and commenting about it.

Bottom line: those moves by Obama and his team in these early days of his administration, endorsed largely by Congress, and echoed in state capitals including Albany, will SEVERELY limit almost every current and future New York City lawyer's ability to have much of any money left with which to have the lifestyle he or she busted his or her butt all these years to achieve for himself or herself and their families.

NYC for achievers is over. Maybe some other parts of the country will welcome them. Some places already mentioned by others. But even those places are not going to be as good as they have been, until Obama's reign is over and repairs are made.

278 is right

p.s. pittsburgh fucking sucks

Boogie-Down Law represent!!

307's right, but there's still hope for some of Florida.

NH needs to change its slogan from "Live Free or Die" to "Came Here to Live for Free Until I Die"

The problem isn't that NYC is dead, it's that salary should be indexed to local cost of living

320, yeah, right - you know about as much about economics as obama

who in hell would be stupid enough to run a law firm that way? you? that point alone would preclude you from ever making partner in any firm!

291. 1) I agree that in NYC it's about lifestyle and not size. But if you take a good luck at the budget Paterson is proposing, or the budget Bloomberg wants, it is a lot of those lifestyle things that are about to become significantly more expensive ... and the same time when salaries are flat-lining, receding, or straight up disappearing.

2) I agree again. But the point is that it's getting harder to justify that choice economically. Harder than it was in the 70s.

3) I'm not gay, but I am black and I am willing to pay a high premium for living in the most racially integrated city in the world. In fact, you actually can't put a price on what I'm willing to pay for that. I'd really want to raise my kids (if I have them) in the kind of tolerant and open environment that NYC provides.

On the other hand, I'd also imagine I'd like my kid to eat, have access to a top rate education, and not have to sleep in the non-walk-in closet I "converted" into a nursery. Having those things and living in NYC might be mutually exclusive goals.
--Elie

Associates -- Before you move, consider how much you could save on your car insurance by switching to GEICO.

lol...as a summer analyst at GS before law school i told myself id never be a lawyer (bitch) to bankers in NYC and i would never ever consider living there until i was a multimillionaire...its never been a viable option...

324 - and now the multimillionaires are going to flee because of what 65 mentions: too few paying too much to support everybody else = move away

bloomberg used to seem to understand that, at least in some reports

bet now he wonders why he wanted more time in that job - he might be the last centimillionaire+ left in the city by the time he leaves office

Associates -- Before you move, consider how much you could save on your car insurance by switching to GEICO.

279: Thanks for setting the record straight. I've lived in Atlanta and I can understand why people like it. I'm Northeastern, though, and it simply wasn't for me. To compare it to NYC is ludicrous - apples and oranges, truly.

326 - Even BO ( before Obama) - the ultra-liberal Howard Metzenbaum got out of then relatively expensive Ohio to die in Florida where his estate wasn't taxed. Bet Bloomberg will do likewise.

328 - it's BO = Barack Obama

Not hard to see the reason for that abbreviation

Elie (322),

Do not delude yourself. New Yorkers are the most hateful people in the world, and the most bigoted. The travesties visited on blacks in the south pre 1865 were, in no way, worse or different than those visited on them in NYC.

"New Yorkers" have stoned and murdered (in rough order) the Irish, the Italian, the Chinese, and every other major group to attempt to settle there.

The teachers in your NYC schools are overwhelmingly more likely to consider a black student as having low talent than a similarly performing white student, and that applies to White, Black, and Blacktino teachers equally.

The same is true with the police -- Black police officers in NYC are more likely to suspect a random black male of being a criminal than an equivalent WHITE officer in Atlanta based on statistical analysis. And since NYC officers also have the highest willingness to shoot to kill in the nation, you're even more likely to be a permanent victim of latent racism in NYC than anywhere else.

NYC's guise as "cosmopolitan" and "accepting" is all a thinly-veiled front. The lifetime New Yorkers I know are by far the most racist and bigoted people I have ever met, and I grew up in the South. DC comes close (suggest going to a club in Anacostia to somebody in DC just once, and see if you get a sniff of racism then) but not quite.

About the only place I've found a true lack of racism is on the West Coast, where everybody is too busy being useless and lazy to bother being racist. Unless you're talking about Mexicans, in which case Californians turn into New Yorkers.

As a Texan, on what I save in city and state income taxes alone I can fly to New York EVERY WEEKEND OF THE YEAR. Think about it... 52 roundtrip flights based on my savings in taxes alone. If I want your culture and my 3,000 sq foot house, I can have them both.

And this is why I racked up 47,000 freuquent flyer miles last year.

Can a young NY lawyer roll into Texas or North Carolina and practice law without taking another bar exam? Thanks in advance.

New York has never been for people who want spacious condos or McMansions, easy parking, pleasant driving and good public schools. Some people like it for other reasons though.

I like to wear an elaborate Jar Jar Binks costume and mask as part of my every day life. I went to the grocery store, and saw how depressed everyone was so I thought I would help. I started dancing in the aisles, and yelling at people, and running up to people and taking things out of their cart. It was great fun.

Then when I went to check out, there was only one lane open and a long line. I screamed and screamed while in line and danced, bumping into other people. I opened a box of baking soda and threw it around. Finally I got to the checkout. I started making noises at the cashier, and I kept pressing buttons on the computer. Some people in line were groaning because the line was getting very long, but that gave me even more incentive to make them laugh. I climbed onto the table and started kicking peoples groceries on the floor and singing.

The manager and one of his goons pulled me off and said I could never shop there again. Can I sue for harassment or possibly assault?

332- No. You are not any more special than any other young lawyer just because you took NY's exam.

320: As one who hires lawyers to work on my deals, New York lawyers already cost too much (with rare exceptions). Your proposal would price you and all the others out of competing for my firm's work ... and, like it or not, it's fierce competition, and high-cost lawyers have been losing out and will continue to lose out.

We can get far more bang for our buck hiring top-notch lawyers outside of New York ... and usually along with that we get far better responsiveness and understanding that we are the client, and we are paying for service, not attitude. That continues to be a big problem in using many New York lawyers. You aren't all the best. Some of you are the best, but there are fewer and fewer of whom that can be said.

What many of you seem to be is billaholics. Your firms are addicted to your billable hour and have failed to listen to your clients who seek value. Those of you who grasp that might do well to leave New York and practice among like-focused lawyers in other places. Those of you who don't grasp that are not going to like the future.

333 - Easy access to coke dealers?

Indeed, 137, indeed.

indeed, 137, indeed

@313 - people in chicago do not live in mcmansions, nor drive to work. don't talk about cities you've clearly never visited. i love new york, but you're a fool if you think it's the only city worth living in.

To the people bashing Houston-

I'm from Houston and planning on returning. And I will admit, there are some very unappealing aspects of Houston: the humidity, the sprawl, the lack of zoning leaving the city kind of haphazard with nice and crappy areas right next to each other.

However, Houston also has some wonderful things about it: low cost of living, friendly people, strong economy, incredible food, cultural institutions rivaling most any city that isn't NYC.

It just depends on what your priorities are. And especially when it comes to sprawl, the people that live there live there because they want to. The trendiest part of Houston is referred to as "in the Loop", the part of the city that is within a freeway loop at about a 4 mile circumference from downtown. Living here is still affordable (though your 6k sqft house in the suburbs will be more like a 2.5k sqft house), the neighborhoods are charming, the restaurants aren't chains, and the commute is less than 15 min. Having spent my entire life in Houston until college, I never once visited any suburb except the one where some extended family lived. Avoiding the sprawl is much easier than you would think.

But to each his own: I think NYC has wonderful qualities (I just need a little more space than I could afford there and I'm not crazy about the weather), Atlanta is a beautiful city, DC is great, Chicago is an awesome city (way too cold for my tastes though).

And then there's Boston, a miserable sh!thole of a city. Honestly, no large city in America could be worse. The weather is miserable, the people are AWFUL, everyone is ugly and depressed, the food is atrocious, the cost of living is insane, customer service is a foreign concept, traffic is awful (not entirely because of the roads, the drivers here are the worst I've ever seen - no one is in a hurry), much of the city is ugly and run down, etc etc etc. Boston (and surrounding cities) has all the disadvantages of large cities and the northeast with none of the benefits. Anyone who chooses to live here is insane.

332 + 335 ->>> 332, If you've passed NY's exam, you should have no trouble passing most other non-community property law states' exams, but you will have to study.

Some firms might find you attractive to be with them before you pass their state's exam, essentially practicing law without a local license until then. I did that years ago when I moved to CA from out of state. In the old days, you could even cut a deal to get two tries at the new state's test before a firm would can you. Doubt that's true anymore.

You'll probably find TX a better place to look than NC, because Charlotte's the big market in NC and it's caved with the financial services downturn. In TX, you could look forward to the life of 331, too - which is no lie. That's how much NYC taxes people ... seemingly without much complaining on their part. Go figure, as we say in the South.

322/Elie,
Hey bud.
1) I accept all of your points. I didn't mean to be overly critical ("lamest post ever on ATL"), but I see now that I was. But hey, you clearly did an awesome post, have you seen how many comments you've generated?! :-)

2) Fair enough, I see you being a black trumping my gay, but I raise you because I'm black and gay. No, seriously, I am haha. (I'm really not just making a joke, i'm as black and gay as they come). So yes, NYC has always been the promised land for me, but I see how being a racial minority can view it as a promised land too. I failed to take that into consideration, so touche sir!

3) Keep up the good work Elie. Ignore the haters and love yourself!

p.s., your participation via comments is really cool. I don't remember if Lat used to do that, but it's a nice touch cause it allows for a a give-and-take community atmosphere as opposed to a one-way street kind of almosphere.

@304

Not really a Hobson's choice either. Actually, a Morton's 3-pronged fork. But today I was wearing my "What Would Thomas Hobbes Do?" bracelet and figured what the hell, make up my own words.

-300

342- I have family in Dallas and crave space. While I grew up in the suburbs of NY, i want my dollar to go further. I want a house, a lawn, the ability to just get in my car and drive.....and I want to be able to play golf year round.

Is this possible in Dallas for me??

--junior associate in biglaw

The fact is that no other city can offer what NYC can. All of you NYC haters have not experienced NYC.

346 - we have, but what nyc offers we don't want anymore

crime, filth, high taxes, lousy services, no reasonable track to upward mobility, racism, nanny-state mentality, and - absurd given all of those - a superiority complex that is decades out of date if ever it was merited

Move south!

“Say what you say, but the fact is that there is only one NYC.”

“so what if it's expensive and you have less of a materials-based existence? Experientially, living in the city can't be matched, unless you're not interested in variety or sincerity.”

“This is a tough town. You know what's happening? You are being weeded out. You were never meant to live in New York to begin with. If you truly valued the cultural aspects of the city over other things, you'd have figured out a way to stay here.”

“This never was your city and we don't want you, so leave.”

“Going out is part of the culture: Straight or gay, mingling in groups is what we do. We need stimulaton.”

“The city will continue to be the intellectual and cultural epicenter of the country. If the country ever picks itself up off the floor (sadly not a given), this will be the place where it will happen first.”

In addition to the material inconveniences, this kind of insufferable douchebaggery is a substantial cost of living here. It’s appalling to meet so many people with their heads buried up their own asses. For these kinds of dysfunctional personalities, the principal benefit of living here is simply self-aggrandizement. This is a sick and truly sad way to live a life.

166, 182, 300 are gems, and Fuck Texas.

346, what does NYC offer that Chicago doesn't? Theater? Nope. Opera? Nope. Symphony? Nope. Art museums? Nope. Great restaurants? Nope. Clubs? Nope. Sports teams? Nope. Shopping? Nope. Plus, in Chicago you can live in a terrific neighborhood in a far more spacious and better-appointed abode for the money. You can own a car. Chicago has the coolest lakefront around -- NYC has, what, Central Park? Chicago also has big law firms (e.g., Kirkland & Sidley) and pays as well as NYC firms but with a much better COL. The only true downsides to Chicago are the weather and traffic, but if you live downtown or in the nearby communities, you don't even need a car.

Also, the people are way nicer and friendlier.

I think that NYC is the best place to be a 3rd year or above. For the first 2 you're better off in SF or some other regional office. First year work in NYC sucks, and it's not like you are working closely enough with the partners to make real progress on partnership prospects until 3rd year anyway. Plus, you'll have a better standard of living. The trick is to avoid being trapped in the regional office. By the time you are a 4th year you can afford to live fairly comfortably even in NYC.

If NYC lowers salaries, firms outside NYC will do the same. In fact, I have no clue why firms pay their Texas associates the same as their NY associates. That's pretty stupid.

NY is a hellhole. I wouldn't work there if they paid $210k starting.

Let's face it, NYC was over when Brett Favre retired.

Achtung 53! Arschloch, sagen nicht schlechte Sachen über Frankfurt!

I'm with 352! I can see ALL salaries lowered everywhere, with "cost of living" adjustments for certain places. Which is what it should have been all along.

I'm with 352! I can see ALL salaries lowered everywhere, with "cost of living" adjustments for certain places. Which is what it should have been all along.

334 - thank you

Thanks to 356, the partner from a national firm with Texas offices

@340 (I'm 313) I've got family in Lake Forest, Rosemont, Evanston, Highland Park and Glenview...I'm in Chicago for a few weeks every year and I love it. Great city! Worth suffering hours in the car to get in and out (unlike LA).

I'm sure living in the actual city can be done in Chicago, but not with the convenience of NYC living, and the suburban pull around Chicago is tremendous.
I think that every person I've ever met outside of IL who claims to be from Chicago is actually from the burbs...sad.

345 - Atlanta or Houston are the year-round golf choices outside of Florida (which is a horrible market now and for awhile longer) and California (which is flirting with total disaster). Dallas actually gets winter most years, but otherwise is a fine place to live, especially if your family there likes you!

218 here. Look, I'm not saying that NY would be better off if all the rich left, but there is a certain type of big law associate who has moved to NY during the boom that just doesn't fit here - i say, let 'em leave.

351 - did you live that life, or is that a fantasy of how you would do it if you could be so blessed to have such a plan happen? In this market and the coming ones, it seems a pipe-dream. Maybe you're smoking?

362, so when they leave, you can pay their taxes, too? or are you going to leave, too? somebody's gotta pay for the statists' nanny state. perhaps it's you!

154 - It was your presious George W that did this. Not Obama.

For those who haven't been to Detroit, you'd be wise to read about it, or, better yet, visit, to see what much of the Northeast might look like in a few years ... California, too, if it doesn't get its act together and throw the liberals out.

154 - It was your precious George W that did this to us. Not Obama! This took years to do (like 8) not 3 months!

361-I went to college in Atlanta and loved it. Not really sure why I left to come back to NY for law school and biglaw.

Most likely because I grew up here and my family and friends are here.

Can I afford a mcmansion, car, golf club membership in ATL or Big D?

Thanks.

361-I went to college in Atlanta and loved it. Not really sure why I left to come back to NY for law school and biglaw.

Most likely because I grew up here and my family and friends are here.

Can I afford a mcmansion, car, golf club membership in ATL or Big D?

Thanks.

365 - you are wrong. SO wrong. W wasn't perfect, but he wasn't hell-bent on making this country a socialist nanny state with much-reduced-for-generations standard of living and quality of life. Obama will eventually be seen by all as the ONE who wrecked our country, and its exceptionalism ... unless we can limit his power-plays and reverse as much of his nanny state as we can. You can then leave for whatever socialist country you like, and take Obamessiah with you.

366: Please. It's truly established cities like NYC, L.A., and San Francisco that will survive this. Charlotte? Atlanta? Dallas? Don't bet on it.

I feel sorry for my NYC friends. Because of taxes, their COL and the culture of consumption in hyper-drive there, they never really accumulate any wealth. They live in tiny, shabby apartments. They are obsessed with status and are constantly looking to "trade up" in terms of lovers, handbags, etc. The dating prospects are terrible. And their city smells like urine.

Move away and breathe free, little ones!

154 - It was your precious George W that did this to us. This took 8 years to come around not 3 months!

152 could not have said it better: "Why can't you afford to live in New York? ...You are a useless tool who probably, at heart, still harbor suburban lifestyle expectations. This is a tough town. You know what's happening? You are being weeded out. You were never meant to live in New York to begin with. If you truly valued the cultural aspects of the city over other things, you'd have figured out a way to stay here. Go live in your Houston condo and be happy. New York won't miss you."

If the slight inconveniences of New York overwhelm you to the extent that you cannot appreciate the fact that you're living in the most exciting and challenging place on earth, the cultural and intellectual epicenter of the country, then you don't belong here and we don't want you here. Stop bitching because you can't cut it and leave. Your life of cookie-cutter condos and TGI Friday's dinners awaits you.

the "W didn't want to make this a Nanny State" argument doesn't go far in light of Terry Shaivo, the NSA spying on Americans and the crackdown on medical marijuana under his presidency.

369 - If you're not one of the many who has lost his job or been laid off. Atlanta will recover better, however, than most places, so long as the state government doesn't follow the idiotic other states who have decided to take the liberal plunge to disaster.

Search King & Spalding, Alston & Bird, and the amazing Sutherland saga on this site for background.

As a 3L who was weighing a NYC offer with an offer in a significantly lower COL city and ultimately chose NYC, I'm not gonna lie -- I'm scared. I knew coming in that my salary would go A LOT farther in the non-NYC city, but in the end I wanted to have the experience of living in NYC for a few years without worrying about kids, a mortgage, etc It's a place like nowhere else. Plus, my entire family lives in NY which was a major draw for me.

I'm most fearful about signing a lease without any job security. My spouse and I have no loans (I have a full scholarship to law school, and we paid off spouse's loans using some of my SA salary) and we plan to sell our cars when we move... but still, the unknown is scary. Even with a salary cut I think we would still be OK, but I plan to attempt to negotiate an out in whatever lease I sign that will release me for a small penalty if I get laid off.

I have no idea what we will do if I do get laid off, as there will be thousands of more experienced attys competing for the same non-existent jobs.

As a 3L who was weighing a NYC offer with an offer in a significantly lower COL city and ultimately chose NYC, I'm not gonna lie -- I'm scared. I knew coming in that my salary would go A LOT farther in the non-NYC city, but in the end I wanted to have the experience of living in NYC for a few years without worrying about kids, a mortgage, etc It's a place like nowhere else. Plus, my entire family lives in NY which was a major draw for me.

I'm most fearful about signing a lease without any job security. My spouse and I have no loans (I have a full scholarship to law school, and we paid off spouse's loans using some of my SA salary) and we plan to sell our cars when we move... but still, the unknown is scary. Even with a salary cut I think we would still be OK, but I plan to attempt to negotiate an out in whatever lease I sign that will release me for a small penalty if I get laid off.

I have no idea what we will do if I do get laid off, as there will be thousands of more experienced attys competing for the same non-existent jobs.

Why is such a big deal made about Texas on this blog?

379,
I'm from Texas, my best friend in middle school (in Texas) was from NYC. His father used to say "There are two states that think they're different from the other 48 states. New Yorkers think they're better than the rest of the Union, and Texans don't think they're part of the Union."

It's those personalities that come to play on this board. Well, that and those of us at BigLaw down here get paid as much as they do w/o income taxes and we love to remind them of it.

374

Don't forget about Applebees' 2 for 1's, you arrogant, New York asshole!

As a non-NYC associate, I'll take my savings and buy all the chicken poppers I want - I mean, what else do you expect me to do on the weekends?

To the guy worried about signing a lease in NYC without job security -- how would you like to have a huge mortgage on a depreciating asset like my wife and I do, also without job security? You have to break a lease, big deal. Your house is worth $250k less than what you paid for it two years ago? That's a big deal.

53... i know this is late, but... best. post. ever.

I'm looking for a tiny, shabby, dilapidated apartment in a teeming metropolis that smells like urine. Rats and/or roach infestations preferred. Oh, yes, I'd like the apartment to be no larger than 500 sq. ft. and a rent of no more than $3,000 per month. Any suggestions?

I always have to laugh at the "experience" NY Biglaw associates think they have when they come interview in Houston after a few years at NY Biglaw and realize they'll never make partner and life sucks. Their experience is never close to what associates get at BigTex firms. The NY corporate lawyers have done lots of d/d and the trial lawyers have done doc review. No one has run a deal or argued a hearing.

Try again, 384. That won't make you prestigious. Besides, you forgot to ask for a place with lots of garbage on the street.

377/378 -
You have no loans, and you're freaked out!?! Cry me a fucking river.

NYC legal market = TTT!!!! (who cares about transactional work?)

"From the ruins, lonely and inexplicable as the sphinx, rose the Empire State Building and, just as it had been a tradition of mine to climb to the Plaza Roof to take leave of the beautiful city, extending as far as eyes could reach, so now I went to the roof of the last and most magnificent of towers. Then I understood — everything was explained: I had discovered the crowning error of the city, its Pandora's box. Full of vaunting pride the New Yorker had climbed here and seen with dismay what he had never suspected, that the city was not the endless succession of canyons that he had supposed but that it had limits — from the tallest structure he saw for the first time that it faded out into the country on all sides, into an expanse of green and blue that alone was limitless. And with the awful realization that New York was a city after all and not a universe, the whole shining edifice that he had reared in his imagination came crashing to the ground."

384 - You shouldn't have a problem right now. You can get a 1000 SF 1 bedroom near Union Square for that price these days.

Yes, Boston, Chicago, LA, San Fran, etc. DO have everything that New York has, just not the quality or the quantity. If you don't care about that part of it, then more power to you. I don't know of a single person who's into opera or theater who would take the Chicago Opera over the Met, or traveling shows over Broadway, if you're into those things. Fortunately, most people aren't.

42 is right. (I didn't read past that post anyway.)

There is always something spectacular to do and see in New York. Unfortunately, the trade off is living in a broom closet. For most people, this is a fair arrangement for a few years. And after you're done going out and seeing things (age 30?), then the city gets old real fast. But you've probably made partner by that point, so it doesn't matter.

Thanks to Obama's real estate bailout plans, Manhattan will forever be overpriced. I'm done with this place once I can lateral out.

I know plenty of teachers who live comfortably with a roommate in a nice NYC apt on 40k a year.

255 - See Bluebook Rule 12.8.3.

Love,
Your Paralegal

The issue here is not whose city is the best. The issue is whether associates taking future job posts in New York--which will need to be filled by someone--will be able to afford to live reasonably here on a reduced salary. And I am afraid the answer is not necessarily "yes." On a current biglaw salary (granted, with WELL below market bonuses, even though I bill well above the requirement) I pay my loans and have a lower-earning spouse and we find it fairly hard going. Having a child is going to be very tough, if not impossible, unless I make partner. Yes, I know I can move to Connecticut or New Jersey, but a decent house in the burbs is just as expensive as our tiny apartment and we'd have to spend hours a day on a train. So that would not help too much until the kids get to school age and we start reaping the benefits of free public education. It's a tough situation. I also know the hours I bill at my high NYC billing rate bring in a lot of money for the firm and the partner for whom I work, and I believe I deserve my current salary. Perhaps the answer is to be more ruthless about cutting underperforming associates when times are good and keeping the firm lean.

New Yorker have small dicks, it's true. I fucked a bunch with my big chicago cock. Fuck ya bitches.

The NYC is dead. Long live the NYC.

395,

Think that way. Have a kid. Karma should then bite you in the a$$, and you, your wife, and your kid will all be out on their a$$es.

Dear 398:

You're such a piece of shit I wish I could throw you out my window.

That is all.

as a NYC first year biglaw associate this post resonates with me. it's a simple matter of looking at the numbers: fed, state, social sec, and account for 40% of my first year salary. so despite being on a 160 base sal i'm on pace to take home ~96,000 - yes, that's right, a 160 in NYC = a non 6 fig take home. this, in and of itself, isn't necessarily awful (well yes, it is, but it could be worse; i.e. CA); deduct ~2750 / month rent (basic 550 sq ft studio apt), factor in 6 fig student loan debt, and a generally ridic CoL and it should quickly become apparent that my life style has changed, well, only marginally.

(but yes, basic whining aside, i'm still very happy to have a job - even if it's in the impossible money pit / treadmill that is NYC)

I would not live in or around NYC unless I make big money (i.e. partner). It is just not worth the hassle and high cost of living.

I would not live in or around NYC unless I make big money (i.e. partner). It is just not worth the hassle and high cost of living.

Elie sure opened up a vein with this topic.

But can we please not take mean pot shots at each other? Let's share information as many of us have and try to get a sense if possible of what's up ahead.

If NY can't make money out of thin air (i-banking) it's screwed. That's 'cause they've lost the ability to make anything else. The stupid lefties who think money grows on trees killed the Empire State's industrial base.

Bush was in fact a 70's style spendthrift Democrat - and he was the same way when he was governor here in Texas. He was just lucky enough to come along when the state's coffers were bursting.

Obama on the other hand is an old style Stalinist/Statist. When his utopian dreams come a cropper he'll declare that coercion is necessary to birth nirvana lest the greedy ruin all the fun.

My guess is that it'll be Rahm, our modern day Walter Duranty, who''ll be the first to say, applauded by the dying NYTimes, - "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".

All the eggs that don't want to get broken should get on the next plane down here to Texas.

173 - Biggest Tool Ever

does that fact that there are over 400 comments on this post at least show that ellie was not wrong to post this story?

365/367/373 = Obama Kool-aid drinker.

Was George W Bush running NYC and caused it to become the shitty cesspool of a city that it is?

Sorry my delusional friend, Obama-type blue state liberals have been spending the city into bankruptcy for YEARS all by themselves (civics lesson: the Mayor doesn't control the purse strings of the city the Comptroller does so stfu about Giuliani being a republican) I'll restate a point I made earlier - when you have 40,000 taxpayers in a city paying the freight for 8 million, pretty soon the 40,000 are going to say "Screw this." and leave. What will happen to the city then?

Nice try tho...

Hey Elie! I've got an idea for your next 50 articles!

Is (insert city here) done?

What do you think?

I chose to be rich in DC rather than poor in NYC!

I'm a gvt lawyer making mid-50s in NYC and love it. Get over yourselves.

Debates over which city is better than the other are completely and utterly stupid. We're all human beings; we all have our different preferences. Some of us absolutely LOVE living in our "walk-in closet" apartments and walking outside to a cacophony of different sounds. Get over it. We chose to live here because we enjoy it.

I honestly don't give two you-know-whats that you live in Houston in some 1000 sqft apartment. That's great. Your children will grow up miserable in cookie-cutter homes and attend their high schools where they'll be pressured to conform into psuedo-preppie (because we all know the true "preps" live in the Northeast, not the South) idiots with no clear goal in life. Prepare yourselves for the cattiness and high school structure of suburbia. Now leave us to our city.

If New York did not die on 9/11, then the "death of New York" is nowhere in sight.

How many BigLaw associates are opera fans? Just wondering, thanks.

LOL @ 382. I take it you don't live in Texas?

hard to believe there are this many idiot attorneys out there who think that salary is based on the wants and needs of the associates. People don't get paid more because NYC is more expensive. What no one ever talks about is that rent, non-legal staff, etc. all costs way more in NYC than other cities. Law firms charge slightly higher rates in NYC, but can't really make up for that. If you like living in NYC, great. Don't complain that people make as much or more than you in other cities and that someone else should be subsidizing your high taxed existence.

NYC is in no way done! If you want it bad enough living in the greatest city in the world is possible. As a law student graduating this May (without a position lined up but doing a tax LL.M.), there is nowhere else in the world I'd rather live. Poor in NYC is better than rich, multiple cars, mansion, other symbols of wealth in a city, suburb, town without any soul.

18--

The "worse" time? Right.

Also, I believe it was your generation that managed to run firms into the crapper. No foresight, bloated business model, etc. Good job, great legacy. The fact that you have the gaul to opine on anything other than which kinds of adult diapers cause a rash simply astounds me. It would be like a CDO guy in the trenches describing how to properly contain risk at a systemic level. As a citizen of this country, you have failed in the worst (note that last word) way: you're leaving the younger generations with a more impoverished, not better, existence. Again, great job. I hope you're proud of yourself.

It's also nice to see you're so enthusiastic about a race to the bottom on the issue of outsourcing; but, I'm sure you're hoping (foolishly) that the quality of the work will remain the same despite the shitty working conditions. I suspect that you'll have different costs to worry about--malpracitce suits, costs related to compliance with local law (this may include bribes depending on the jurisdiction (but, you'll have to get some advice on the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, etc.)). Outsourcing is not the silver bullet you make it out to be. Also, good luck selling that to domestic clients.

It's Karl Marx time, baby. If that happens, buggery will be the least of your problems--maybe that's how you got the rash.

One more thing: go fuck yourself.

390-

You have to be joking. Boston has everything NYC has? Boston is a pathetic imitation of a real city. Its basically a larger, less charming, more congested Providence. Everyone should avoid Boston at all costs.

it was never worth living/working in nyc. it is just more not worth it now.

300 = comment of the year.

300 = comment of the year.

When people talk about the "sophistication" of the work being better in NY/DC, do they generally mean corporate work? It seems to me like interesting issues in litigation are not as tied to the dollar value of the matter., but I'm just a 3L, so what do I know. Is the litigation in NY really that much more interesting or intellectually stimulating than the litigation in Houston or Atlanta? In fact, more medium-sized cases might be less document intensive, which seems like it would be better for associates...

I miss the energy of NYC, but I like the time with my family. If you haven't lived in NYC, then you can't compare your city to NYC. The associates there know how to work. That's for sure. And the city doesn't get going until 11 pm. It's cool putting in a 13 billable hours, and then going to hang out with your friends at the clubs, movies, bowling alley, billiards, restaurant, gym, private party, etc. Really! It's fun. And $145,000 goes a long ways. Sure, it's impossible to save any money. There is always something to spend it on. It's not the type of work that you get as an associate in NYC, it's the volume and pace. You don't get that anywhere else.

I miss the energy of NYC, but I like the time with my family. If you haven't lived in NYC, then you can't compare your city to NYC. The associates there know how to work. That's for sure. And the city doesn't get going until 11 pm. It's cool putting in a 13 billable hours, and then going to hang out with your friends at the clubs, movies, bowling alley, billiards, restaurant, gym, private party, etc. Really! It's fun. And $145,000 goes a long ways. Sure, it's impossible to save any money. There is always something to spend it on. It's not the type of work that you get as an associate in NYC, it's the volume and pace. You don't get that anywhere else.

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First off 156, you are a fucking moron. I lived in Manhattan for 4 years and came back home to Houston and my quality of life is LEAGUES better than it was in New York.

Nice home close to downtown, 2 nice cars, savings, excellent arts and restaurant scene. The joke's on you loser. Once I saw that it was virtually impossible to get ahead as a salaried slave I got the fuck out.

313 - no McMansions in Chicago proper, nor huge commute times. don't compare us with housTTTon

NY isn't done and there's no city that compares. I recently moved from NY to DC and regret it with a passion. Of course it depends on what you're looking for in a city and what stage of life you're in. If you enjoy going out to dinner, the Opera, shows, etc. and lead a more active social life, as opposed to being more of a home body, one who prefers the space of the suburbs or someone who is enjoying the married w/kids life, there are better cities out there for you. I also didn't make much money ($80,000) yet I was still able to do everything I was interested in while living in Manhattan.

Also, when the weather is nice, there are free/cheap activities worth trying. free outdoor movies in Bryant Park (or 10 other places), free summer concerts in Central Park (I went to a cool African concert), tons of activities in Central Park, Shakespeare in the Park for $20, etc. There's a plethora of great "cheap" restaurants to try.

NY will never cease to exist bc even at the present moment when we're prob at the bottom of this crisis it still continues to be The city, and once things begin to pick up, people will once again flock to NY. There's so much to do at any given hour within such close proximity that you can't get elsewhere.

Do I have to be over 50 to think gangbusters is cool?

atlanta is an incredibly dull city. i was bored beyond belief and got back to chicago as soon as i could.

More evidence that NYC is done.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.f385c2ed911fca31a34d5da9783ee7aa.551&show_article=1

btw - do a google search on 'nyc done' this article appears in the top results....

Is it possibe for NYC to be more done?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123940286075109617.html

Yes, it's still done.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04132009/news/regionalnews/phone_taxes_are_cell_hell_164180.htm

I'm so over living in a shoebox when I can live in huge house elsewhere and actually have parties at my house, instead of paying $14/drink to be around pretentious brats - straight out of LA. NY will not be the same after this recession, and who cares...

Don't forget you can fly anywhere for a weekend, when you aren't working around the clock to meet your 2100 billables (aka, for your $12/hour). So yes, you might not have Broadway, or fancy shopping in other "small" cities, you can fly to NYC or better yet, Paris or Florence, and live life to the fullest...and seriously, Queens? come on, Brooklyn, i give you, but Queens...

Most of the pro-NY comments are obviously from people w/o kids. You can't afford to take your kids anywhere, when you pay almost $50k/year for nanny/daycare. NY is great single, but once you realize life is not just about you, it gets really old and limiting.

Uh oh! Madonna is moving there - just more evidence that NYC is DONE!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04142009/news/regionalnews/madonna_manor_164380.htm

23 - I, for one, welcome the demise of our union-scum overlords.

last!

438 - not quite.

btw - NYC is still done.

More proof NYC is done.

Choke on the change you voted for you elitist pricks!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05192009/news/regionalnews/manhattan/violent_crime_wave_jolts_trendy_downtown_170010.htm

You're welcome New York!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07162009/photos/news_graph.jpg