Open Thread: What Can Law Schools Do?
At some point, we are going to have to do something about law school tuition that is painfully out of whack with the reality of the post-graduate legal market. But with falling state budgets and a record number of new applicants, let’s assume that law schools will sooner offer advanced classes in hotel management before they reduce tuition.
But what can law schools do to help out their students during this market crisis. The UCONN student newspaper had an interesting idea:
UConn Law pushes back start date for Class of 2012In a move seen as in line with many BigLaw firms, UConn Law has pushed back the start date for the incoming class of 2012, which will now begin studies in January of 2010….
The development was simultaneously discovered by several dozen 3Ls, who fi ll their days obsessively refreshing the law industry blog Above the Law, in the hopes the firms at which they plan to start their careers have gone another five minutes without dissolving.
I’m all for taking the incoming class of 2012 and vigorously shaking them while screaming “What are you thinking!? You are RUINING it for everybody!” Alas, the UCONN idea is just another “April Fool’s” attempt to raise hopes and then quickly dash them.
But after the jump, are there legitimate options law schools should consider?
One tipster had the brilliant idea of law schools extending their clinical program options to recent graduates. If law schools did this, 3Ls who’ve had their start dates deferred would be able to get the public interest position they need in order to get their deferral stipend, without having to compete with everybody else in a few choice cities. And they’ll get to spend the year in an environment they are familiar with, as opposed to trying to learn an entirely new city for a transient year. If law schools could throw in some subsidized student housing, so much the better.
Of course, there are obvious problems … clinics are supposed to be learning experiences for students, not professional opportunities for graduates, especially ones who will take some time to pass and become admitted to the bar. But if the complications can be worked out, it seems like a low cost way for schools to actually help their students deal with the market.
What other creative ideas have you heard? Law schools (obviously) aren’t doing a great job helping their students find jobs, and they are most likely not going to reduce tuition any time soon. But that doesn’t mean schools need to stand like a deer in headlights while the classes of 2009 and 2010 are run over on the recession highway. There are initiatives schools can undertake to help in these tough times.
Share your ideas in the comments. You never know who is listening.
Pro Se [Uconn Law School]
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first
Is that a picture of the new Paul Hastings Planned Parenthood Center and Coat Hanger Emporium?
third
I went to talk to my career services director at my TTT. Even though I had an appointment she gave me less than 5 minutes before ushering me out of her office. I think it was hard for her to have sympathy when my deferral stipend will be more than her yearly salary.
How about a story about UNC - the 2009 National Champs!!!???
Uh, what incentive to law schools have to do this? Students are like cattle going to these schools, regardless of tuition. The only thing that's going to force law schools to alter their behavior is a massive change in applicants, which isn't going to happen without some serious smearing of law schools. Others, like Penn, just "hire" students to "count" them as employed upon graduation. It's all about $$$ and USNWR rank for these schools, which is why so many horrifyingly bad ones remain open.
The idea of law schools expanding their clinical programs for recent graduates is truly a brilliant one. There can't be any shortage of clients needing assistance with foreclosures, debt workouts and the other myriad problems of a recession, and the law firms would pick up most of the cost.
encourage more students to write novels http://www.blackbooklegal.com
How about requiring an explanation of how long it takes law grads to pay back student loans, and an explanation of the lost opportunity costs for those attending law school.
There are partners in Biglaw still paying off student loans. Hell, Obama and his wife were paying off student loans until the book a few years ago.
Instead of selling students into slavery, why not a requirement that law schools honestly tell students how long it will take to pay back loans?
For grads with no job to look forward to in the fall (or later, as the case may be), schools should offer to pay for bar exam and bar prep course fees, so at least grads can rest easy during the summer, study real hard, pass the bar and have a fighting chance of getting a job in the fall as a licensed attorney.
How about requiring an explanation of how long it takes law grads to pay back student loans, and an explanation of the lost opportunity costs for those attending law school.
There are partners in Biglaw still paying off student loans. Hell, Obama and his wife were paying off student loans until the book a few years ago.
Instead of selling students into slavery, why not a requirement that law schools honestly tell students how long it will take to pay back loans?
As long as 0Ls keep lining up to give them money -- and as long as the government continues to finance it -- what incentive do law schools have to care about the fates of their graduates?
It would be great if schools would quote a price for three years, instead of reserving the right to raise tuition every year. It would be swell if there were an option to enter a mutually binding agreement to price tuition based on a fixed percent of post-graduate income. But the market isn't making that happen.
Schools paying for, say, BarBri (approx. $2k) would be a small cost to law schools but a big weight lifted off recent grads' shoulders - just one less expense to have to worry about during the summer immediately following graduation.
I have a miracle plan to slash tuition by one-third: cut the third year. It's useless. Viola.
The Market Knows All, and will fix these problems on Its own. Worry not, young law students (but you may want to move off of the train tracks).
Any news on Start Dates today? It's April now for Christ's sake.
#2 - lol
How about opening up three new law schools in New York state? That's what the New York legislature funded last year. Excellent use of taxpayer dollars.
Encourage students to get joint degrees so that they can get jobs in other fields when necessary.
Eliminate the third year and adopt an apprentice system similar to the UK. Students get experience working in the legal field, build more professional networks, and leave law school with less debt. Third year is just electives and BS courses anyway, who needs it.
Hey # 19 -- What are these "other fields" that have jobs?
Free meals at the student dining hall. Free showering at the gym. Setting aside campus space for student tents.
Public interest law is for gays and hippies.
Few to any lawyers recommend the field. This has been the case for some time. However, as tuition increases, much more than inflation, at 5-7% each year, the trap behind larger. As law firm salaries stagnate -even 160K was the only a 3% Year over Year raise from 2001-and the hours get worse and worse. Also, people are expected to bill fully 400-600 hours more a year than 20 years ago.
The key: Law schools are businesses. They will sell you a pet rock if they can make money on it. Hell, applications are up because of the economy. Granted, the people applying now will go 250 in debt (remember those tuition increases) and come out with 1,000s of unemployed, experienced lawyers out there.
When will things change?
a) People realize even a T14 or T6 degree is not that great. This will take years. and telling grandma you are going to law school still impresses them.
b) People accurately know about the jobs and the hours and the chance of getting Biglaw and the evils of Biglaw and the debt and the work etc. The internet helps, but you can only lead a horse to water. How many current lawyers were directly told in person by older lawyers not to go to law school?
c) The one I think will be the decisive factor.
SALLIE MAE or CITIBANK or B of A stops giving out loans like candy to people applying to law school. If the bankruptcy laws change this will happen in a heartbeat. Even if not, the lack of capital plus the factor that so many people are in default may make a difference.
If Stafford loan limit do not increase to make up for the lack of private loans, and tuition keeps increasing well ahead of inflation, this will kill off many law school.
Can you really justify giving a loan to a TTT (50-100) law school student that the will never be able to repay.
Once people apply to University of Buttfuck Law and realize they can't pay for it, they won't go.
The American system of law school is different from all others. It is a bubble to pop within 10 years.
One thing they could do is help law students identify credit worthy marks and forge documents to enable students to obtain loans.
Repercussions? Minimal as long as the students pass the bar. http://tinyurl.com/c56u3e
Law schools might realize that pumping out 220+ law students every year has created an oversupply and is killing the entire legal profession. How about a voluntary reduction of entering classes for two or three years? Just because the demand is there doesn't mean they have to meet it.
April Fools!
24 is right, it IS misleading that law students are handed as much debt as they want. it is amazing too how much higher the interests rates charged are for TTT students than for T14 for private law loans. several points, for otherwise identical credit scores.
i pity 2Ls. there is no way that there are going to be many offers this year, given the huge number of deferred 3L's. Only people in worse trouble than 2Ls though are 1Ls. rofl. okay, 1Ls and maybe 0Ls who don't wake up before August and run away as fast as they can.
side note - i am a happily employed attorney, not some bitter reject.
Make it easy to flow directly into an LL.M. program.
Law schools should freeze or reduce tuition. One of their biggest selling points for jacking up tuition these past few years was the increase in first-year associate salaries. It's only appropriate that the TTT's continue this model.
Offer a refund program.
Law schools should only be 2 years. The $40K spent on year 3 in no prepares you spent for a career in law.
@26.
Law profs make 100K. 200K. 300K. For teaching 10 credits (2-3classes a year). Many are 'experts' in fields that have no commercial application. They have tenure. Tenure granted much easier than college profs. They think because the clerked for some asshat judge they are important and smart and ELITE.
No way do they do anything to harm the cash cow that props up the university or their lifestyles. They do not care one bit about the students.
They care as much about saddling kids with crushing debt forever as did the real estate agents/mortgage brokers who saddled home buyers with 500K debt for 200K houses.
They get their cut and they like it.
How about law schools handing out tuition reimbursements for the lost generation (aka the class of 2009)?
How about law schools handing out tuition reimbursements for the lost generation (aka the class of 2009)?
"obsessively refreshing the law industry blog Above the Law"... sounds like ATL doesn't want us to make them any more money. Instead of refreshing ATL all day and clicking on ATL ads, go to http://lawfirmchaos.blogspot.com/ and I will keep you updated and even better make it really easy for you to compare what other firms have already done. As a 3L waiting to hear the news myself, I understand the need to refresh constantly.
Law school is as good an investment as an Irvine condo in 2006.
UConn is not an acronym. It is not all capitalized. It is UConn, not UCONN.
I agree with 26. Probably not likely to actually happen, but it is what should happen. The ABA shares responsibility in this. They need to stop accrediting new schools, start requiring true and accurate reporting on employment and salary statistics, and just generally crack the whip a little more.
Right now the ABA only pulls accreditation if bar passage rates are absymal. Why not extend that same penalty to abysmal employment and salary rates? If you are not T14, getting a good job and a salary that will pay your loans is a hell of a lot harder than passing the bar.
They need to start threatening schools with a loss of accreditation if, say 50% or more of their grads aren't working in a legal field and earning at least $60k (roughly the amount a GS-11 attorney would make) within a year of graduation. There's no reason why this shouldn't be an attainable goal for a legit law school, and this would force schools to be selective about who they admit, reduce their enrollment numbers, and help drive up salaries at the lowest paying ends of the profession.
Obviously any metric like this should take into account public interest work, particularly prestigious fellowships and whatnot. But I'm sure a fair compromise could be made.
Create jobs to employ their graduates until they get offers. Fund Clinics across the disciplines.
Forge ties with India and urbane cities such as B.A. for clerkships and such. Just enough money to get by but great learning opportunities coupled with the ability to make a difference.
"The $120K spent on 3 years of law school in no way prepares you for a career in law."
fixed.
My lawschool actually hired at least two former grads to work at the law school while they try to find "real" jobs.
Work the phones with alumni to place 3Ls in internships with small firms. The firms get to accomplish what little work they have on their plates at no cost, and students get actual experience working (perhaps even a foot in the door if they don't fuck up).
It would be a much better use of a 3L year than taking a bunch of bullshit "law and bananas" seminars.
How about taking the Partner Emeritus "Good 'Ol Boys" Club out of the equation and not make law school a requirement for taking the bar exam in other states besides California...
Law schools should pay for BarBri and other Bar prep expenses....
...and raise tuition by $5k.
TANSTAAFL, morons.
How about teaching actual marketable skills instead of useless legal arcana? Then maybe first years would be worth their billable rates. You know, maybe show kids how to draft a contract, or shepherd a case through the maze of civil procedure rules. I'm just sayin'.
Spot on, spot on poster no. 24.
Law school rankings meant something years ago. Today, not so much. If you attend a school such as NYU Law, I really have to question the judgment of the student and his/her wisdom. Anyone going to law school these days, unless you have a full scholarship, is a fool. Most folks that are law students are leveraging out their lives for a shot at something that is illusory to most (partnership at a peer law firm). Law schools are a cash cow for most universities and will continue to take money in the form of exorbitant tuition from less than stellar students. Students in this case are the horse. The dream is the carrot. Run little geldings.
This proves my point that the quality of law students and graduates of today has reached a new nadir. As I mentioned earlier in another post, hiring foreign based attorneys is a better and more cost effective alternative. At this point in my life or any partner's career, there is no time or tolerance to babysit and nurse a green associate's development.
Good God, 46! You mean you want law school to prepare students to be lawyers, rather than law professors? Shame on you.
Where is UConn State?
One thing the ABA could do is to stop allowing outsourcing to India. That's where a lot of the run-of-the-mill new lawyer jobs are going.
Look at all this serious talk. Lawyers.
I just wanted to say I thought the article referenced above was funny and timely - better than 90% of what's on ATL these days.
Look at all this serious talk. Lawyers.
I just wanted to say I thought the article referenced above was funny and timely - better than 90% of what's on ATL these days.
Step 1 is to stop the construction of new law schools. Can we all agree on that?
Can someone tell the New York legislature? I am not happy about paying more in state taxes and having the money go to produce extra lawyers.
Partner Emeritus,
Fuck you. There's gotta be a pair of testicles up there. Just let them drop man.
How does it feel? You're fucking out and I'm fucking in.
- Dr. Cock and Balls
Law schools should have gyms/fitness facilities/etc. That way, at least the female students/grads will be able to market what is typically their most valuable commodity - a nice body.
39, the ABA continues to accredit new law schools, because raising standards (like requiring a 75% bar passage rate) would be racist. Surprise surprise, blacks fill up the bottom-tier schools.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/02/aba-set-to-impo.html
Yes We Can--Change We Can Believe In
A lot of parties can share blame for the profession collapse we are witnessing.
1. Law schools / law professors - knowingly graduating more students than the market can absorb and laughing all the way to the bank
2. ABA - unable to properly execute your accreditation function, ignoring valid criticism, catering to a small fraction of practicing lawyers
3. Law firms (big and small) - hours are inhumane and anti-family. Don't pretend otherwise.
4. Law students - outlandish salaries are nothing to cheer for. Ask practising lawyers what it's like and then ignore advice to pursue another profession.
It would be interesting to compare the rise in partner/associate biglaw billing rates to the rise in law school tuition. I would guess that partner/associate biglaw billing rates have gone up much more than law school tuition has over the years, Biglaw partners are still getting rich, even as they cut associates. Is that right?
Income Based Repayment + 10 years Public Service/ Public Interest Job + Public Service Loan Forgiveness = No more Federal Loan Debt, tax free forgiveness, and reduced overall repayment for those ten years.
With the current economy law schools should be helping law grads find jobs in public service (government (all levels), military, education, etc) or public interest. While not big salaries, combined with the programs above, these jobs (especially government jobs) can be very fufilling and rewarding (some govt legal jobs pay very well) and usually come with good benefits (health, networking opportunities, etc)
If this were Partner Emeritus' first round of NYU-bashing, I'd be less hesitant to say that he's a CLS 2L (or possibly an NYU 2L).
59 - Why not for everybody that has a loan (car, house, margin account, etc.)
One thing schools might do is to develop a 2nd or 3rd year course based on the B school case study model in which students are presented with a real world scenario relating to career options and are expected to develop "solutions" based upon pre- defined objectives. Part of the problem today is that students generally have not been forced in advance to think expansively or creatively about career options in a down economy and wind up in situations in which, when Plan A falls apart, they they haven't begun to think concretely about a Plan B or C.
Write your senator! The U.S. Department of Education grants the ABA the power to accredit law schools. The DOE is re-examining the grant this June. Ask your senator to pull the ABA's accreditation power. We have too many law schools because the ABA has totally miscalculated the number of law schools this country needs.
59 is right. Government jobs other than JAG and clerkships were practically invisible at my TT. I had to do it all on my own, but am now happily employed with the government and enjoying loan repayment programs and work-life balance. I also enjoy the possibility of lateraling into BigLaw and chasing $$ one day.
This is definitely an area law schools can improve upon.
I have convinced 3 people not to attend law school based upon the realistic expectation of salary v. student loans post-graduation. Cant' say that I'm proud that I crushed their dreams...wait, yes I can.
63, see 56. The ABA tries to raise accreditation standards, but the hands of its white-guilt-ridden liberal leaders are easily tied if you call them racists.
The legal profession has it all backwards. Even though their is a chronic shortage of medical residents, you don't see new medical schools popping up. Why? Because the AMA wants to limit the amount of new doctors every year (granted it's a lot more effprt to start a medical school than a law school).
However it seems that in the legal profession the ABA could give a rat's behind if there are too many new lawyers. Instead of protecting its profession the ABA is looking for itself.
By the way all you laid off attorneys: why don't you do something worthwhile & productive? Become a family physician and move to the boondocks. You'll make 200K+ per year and get a ton more respect than getting dumped on by some partner.
I have convinced 3 people not to attend law school based upon the realistic expectation of salary v. student loans post-graduation. Cant' say that I'm proud that I crushed their dreams...wait, yes I can.
Accreditation is an education function, not a supply & demand function. Lots of people with graduate degrees have problems finding employment, too.
I agree wholeheartedly with #s 24 and 26 and those who echo them.
Here's my suggestion:
1) repeal the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure -- they make it far too easy to be an attorney and the discovery system creates mountains of mindless paperwork for associates. It also allows frivolous suits to proceed much farther than they would under an older-style system.
2) Raise the minimum LSAT to 170 for every school except a single public university in each state. Law that is harder to practice calls for more rigorous standards to study.
What do they call a medical student who graduates at the bottom of their class......a doctor.
What do they call a law student who graduates at the top of his class......deferred document clerk.
Go to med school.
Make law school mandatory for all citizens like Health Insurance to lower costs.
Why is UC Irvine opening up a law school and not a nursing school? We have a nursing shortage and a lawyer bonanza. Is this Mark Yudof's doing?
Market forces, 73. Law school is the last haven for people who don't like math or blood, which is most people. So universities know there will always be budding lawyers, but can't guarantee a full class of future nurses.
#67,
Scary thing. I have friends at WashU Med School (#3 in the country) and they have half a dozen students who didn't place in hospitals this year. They have never had that. Nearest they can figure is hospitals are reducing hiring as well.
The bottom 20% of law schools should be permanently closed, and there should be a 10 year moratorium on any new law schools opening.
This would do the world, the students at the remaining law schools, and the would-have-been bottom 20% students all a favor.
69- Am I confused or don't I need a degree from an accredited law school to take my state's bar exam? And isn't the bar exam an exam to enter a profession?
77 - You don't need an accredited degree to take the California bar exam. I believe you do for all other states.
NU is considering expanding its clinical programs for 3Ls in a jam. For their sake, I hope the school moves forward with it.
I think it might be time to cut our losses. My PR professor basically made me want to jump out a window because I decided to go to law school. He spent the entire semester harping on:
1) The ABA allows lawyers to engage in the most egregious form of protectionism that exists in any industry. There are tasks that can be performed by monkeys, but because of the ABA and the rules regarding the unauthorized practice of law, lawyers must be involved (e.g. most residential property crap). My conclusion before the financial crisis: the amount of work available to lawyers is at its peak, it can only go down from here as people force change in the legal industry.
2) Most lawyers are depressed, have crappy families, hate life, and abuse drugs and alcohol to cope.
3) You might make $160,000, but when you actually consider the amount of hours you work and your lifestyle, you are actually getting screwed. ($160,000 / 65 / 52 = $45ish per hour less taxes, school loans, and money needed to support "play hard" lifestyle = Crappy Ass Pay)
4) BigLaw is a perfect example of the conclusion in the Milgram experiment. All BigLaw lawyers end up turning into a slave to partners and clients and will do anything for them just to stay employed.
5) People think that a law degree opens doors, but it really doesn't. Once you become a lawyer, it is hard to do anything else without starting over.
6) Most legal work will be outsourced to individuals making $5 / hour in developing countries. When you consider this along with his first point, and the current crisis, we're all screwed.
7) And of course the worst of all... Model Rule 1.8 which states that "A lawyer shall not have sexual relations with a client"
8) And finally, this guy is an unemployed T14 graduate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7oGx2dImE8
I think this professor should be part of law school orientation, so we at least have a chance to get out before it's too lat
OK, seriously people? People are arguing about something that's clearly an April Fools article? You all have the collective intelligence of a houseplant.
Law schools should do whatever they want. If people are wiling to buy what they sell at their price than they sould remain open.
It is the job of the students to make good decisions and deal with the repurcussions of their debt.
I got an undergrad degree in history (essentially useless), does that university owe me anyhting?
#75:
Anyone graduating from an American medical school will get a residency unless:
a) they are utterly incompetent or have done something severely bad like shoot the dean
b) someone tries to match to a specialty for which there are limited openings (like neurosurgery) and you just aren't the among the best candidates
But anyone should be able to match for an internal medicine or psychiatry. Look at our inner city hospitals---majority of the residents are foreigners. If someone from Wash U. doesn't match I'd guess its 'b' above.
81: you idiot. people have expanded the discussion in the comments section to legitimate issues, as alluded to below the fold. the april fool's piece was merely the prompt.
Picture to represent unemployed or deferred 3L with tons of law school debt. http://penut.net/images/links/donkey.jpg
>>> You might make $160,000, but when you actually consider the amount of hours you work and your lifestyle, you are actually getting screwed. ($160,000 / 65 / 52 = $45ish per hour less taxes, school loans, and money needed to support "play hard" lifestyle = Crappy Ass Pay)
If you are actually billing 65*52 hours, which is 3380, and let's assume a biling rate of $300 per hour, you are bringing in over $1 million for your firm.
I agree with #38.
What should law schools do? Absolutely nothing. Keep bringing in the students and keep sending out the graduates. Since when was a diploma a ticket to a certain future? Compete with the rest and succeed or fail based on your skills and/or merits.
What a bunch of hopped-up self-indulgent entitlement laden crap.
If the legal job market is trashed, the potential applicants will self-select out, just like medical graduates select themselves out of residencies in unprofitable or undesirable specialties. The law degree is just becoming like the much-maligned MBA of the late '80s and early '90s: a degree of last resort.
The only thing any non T-14 school should do to help its students: CLOSE THEIR DOORS FOR GOOD and refund whatever money they can to the students. Irrelevant schools need to stop defrauding students.
86 - Billing? 65 = "Hours Worked" which according to everyone I know is realistic if you plan to BILL 40 hours per week and hit the 2000 hour mark.
81, and all those not responding seriously to this thread----Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
I have shared cab rides with lawyers from bottom feeder schools and I have to admit that I feel safer with them behind the wheel than a foreigner who waived the written part of the test.
56 & 66 -
The ABA accredits schools because they run into antitrust problems when they play games with the accreditation process - not because of the cockamamie, race-based conspiracy theory in your posts.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/press_releases/1995/0257.htm
70 - repealing the FRCP? That actually made me laugh out loud.
And Congress did something like this in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act, which requires a plaintiff to come forward with facts strongly evidencing fraud, before being allowed to proceed to discovery. If he can't, he loses on a 12(b)(6). Ironically, this "reform" is a big hurdle for victims of Bernie Madoff, who would like to sue some of the feeder funds and others who steered their investments into Madoff's fund. They need evidence of scienter, among other things, which they can only get through discovery.
Which NCAA championship will have the greater effect? Michigan State's win to boost the teetering state of Michigan or North Carolina's win to arrest the downward slide of its law school?
92, wow, a 13 year old press release. Way to be relevant.
So when the ABA tried to raise the bar for law school accreditation in 2008, by requiring a bar passage rate of roughly 75%, minority advocates didn't complain strenuously about how restricting accreditation would especially hurt underrepresented minorities, who are disproportionately found in the bottom-tier schools?
Sure, sure. Go to medical school. Rack up just as much debt. And make $30K for TEN years before you become a real doctor and can start paying it off.
94 -
[citation needed]
#95
Sure. Sure. Go to law school. Rack up 200K+ in debt. Work like a slave for a partner for 2 years. Get laid off in a horrible market with no marketable skills or demand for a grunt to slave over documents. Collect unemployment.
How the hell did this get on here? I doubt people from a TTT like UConn actually had much of a chance getting a job anyway.
I worked with a lawyer who was a UConn grad once ... he smelled like Pabst Blue Ribbon and desparation. Then he offered to give me a reach around.
"...let's assume that law schools will sooner offer advanced classes in hotel management before they reduce tuition. "
Ignoring the poor construction of that sentence, I go to the University of Houst(TT)on Law Center which does offer a hotel management course entitled "Legal Issues in the Hospitality Industry." I April Fool you not.
http://www.law.uh.edu/assignments/spring2009/17800.pdf
96,
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/02/aba-set-to-impo.html
http://www.abanet.org/legaled/standards/Proposed%20Standards%20Commentary/Comments%205_301%206.pdf
http://www.saltlaw.org/files/uploads/SALTsubmission_12-28-07f_2A_1.doc
From the last link: "Initial data indicates that the current proposed [requirement of roughly 75% bar passage rate] would bring into question the accreditation of at least twelve law schools with significant minority student enrollment."
Such gems as Cooley, Touro, Western New England, Whittier, Widener, Texas Southern, Golden Gate, and U of DC.
To: #98
So this UConn grad was fucking you in the ass? Why else would he offer to give you a reach around? Or, in your poor attempt at sardonic humor, did you misuse a piece of sexual terminology? While the former seems likely, I'm going with the latter, since you're obviously the type of overstuffed prick who's never gotten sex he hasn't paid for. Or you went to Duke. Or both.
To: 101
From: 98
I know your really him (the UConn grad I was talking about). Why didn't you ever call again? Were you intimidated by my faux gold cufflinks? My pinstripe shirt? My brooks brother tie? My white french cuffs?
We had such a special night at the Nathan Hale Inn; I thought I was going to be the lady to your tramp!
If you still have my number, please call me. I'm working on a deal at Foxwoods next week and would love to see my "Shrek" again.
- Heartbroken and alone in New York
89 - Not sure who you've been talking to, but I suggest you try talking to people with better time management skills. No one, I mean no one, should need 65 hours at work to generate 40 billable hours. You might work on a particular matter where, for whatever reason, you have a lot of time that's not billable, but if that's standard for you, you've got a serious problem.
57- This idea that law schools are to blame for "knowingly graduating more students than the market can absorb" is bullshit. Yes, it is a for-profit industry. Therefore, the only "market" the law schools care about is their own. How many law jobs the legal industry has to offer is completely irrelevant. So long as people keep lining up to take out those loans, the law schools are happy to oblige.
103 - That's actually good to hear... Everyone I worked with last year insisted that they are only able to bill 8 hours for every 12 hours worked. The extra four hours included training, non-billable work or events, and working on establishing a book of clients to secure a partnership opportunity. Sooo, these individuals either have poor time management skills or they are doing more to move up the ranks than others.
104 - exactly! Caveat Emptor; no one forced anyone to do anything, so you only have yourself to blame. Every "so you want to be a lawyer" type website, blog, book or whatever dedicates the first 10 chapters to "are you nuts, don't do it" stuff. Unless you live in a cave, you have to consciously ignore all the downsides to the legal profession to even consider going to law school today or you have to be insane.
agree with a lot of the ideas here including:
a) 24's idea: changing the finance rules to create a situation in which bankers don't issue loans to people for BS degrees that will not pay back the loans.
this isnt market interference-its ending the market interference which currently exists which allows bankers to give BS loans at no risk to themselves.
b) dumping the 3rd year of law school (and the second year for that matter). Changing the finance rules will allow law schools and lenders to operate in an actual market environment rather than a protected one.
b) 1 year of law school is all you need to learn how to think like a lawyer. dump the other two years.
additional suggestions:
a) dump (or reform) worthless career services-they collect pay checks for telling students they should "network" (which means beg your friends for jobs) explaining how to mass mail; and telling students who just completed 7 years of post high school education how to make a resume and cover letter. this could save tuition money.
if the school has no meaningful connections-then there should be no career services department. everyone knows how to use the internet to look for employers...blindly compiling lists does not help anyone.
106 here
i forgot to add:
law schools (usually) part of universites that also have undergrad programs
undergrad is where this whole problem starts.
. These universities as a whole should create undergrad counseling programs that incorporate market realities into the academic counseling business
the major in what you want to business has flourished for decades...becuase after all
you can always just go to law school.
100,
Although I only checked one of those schools you listed (Western New England), I don't believe a 10% monority rate is very high...
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA3962.pdf
106 nailed it re: "career services". Our career services department employs a handful of dumpy losers with no connections. They remind me of the dungeons and dragons club kids that we all used to rip on in high school, except they are better at regaling me with the benefits of "networking".
FWIW, the "hospitality law" course at U Hous(TTT)on (in the Hospitality college, not the law school) is actually one of the more useful classes I have wasted my money on.
Joan King ruined my life.
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THREADS ON THIS BOARD. PLEASE REVISIT AGAIN IN THE FUTURE TO RAISE THE PROFILE OF THIS ISSUE.
110 How did Joan King ruin your life?
By the way 106 TOTALLY nailed it on career services! Totally useless!
Your are better off grabbing the yellow pages and looking up Lawyers section and cold calling them asking them if they are hiring any PT or FT help! Might parlay that into a job in shitlaw!
Is 106 a graduate of my law school? Perfect description of my school's career services department. If you simply send out lists of available jobs and dole out useless info on how to format a resume then you should be fired. Let a part-time employee coordinate OCI in August.
I went to a T35 (or TTT, to some of you arrogant pricks) state law school back in the mid 1990s, straight out of undergrad. My mother refused to pay the loan papers for the T14s that had admitted me, because she said that I could not afford that type of debt, and she was unwilling to cosign for that type of debt. I'm happy she said it. I graduated from my T35 with less than 65K in debt and I earned a federal appellate court clerkship. It took me 5 years to pay the loans off in full, and I've worked at BIGLAW, the government, and F100 in-house counsel in big cities. I'm not rich, but I'm doing very well (pay, benefits, investments). And I earned my degrees from two highly respected state schools. And I love my current job. I busted my azz, BTW, working late hours, doing CLEs, speaking, and never taking a vacation unless and until I switched jobs. Been there, done that.
Why do I say this? Because I, too, suffered from T-14 syndrome. I've got lawyer friends from undergrad and elsewhere (we've been out of school for 12+ years) who went to T-14s (or just private TTTs that cost way too much money), and they are STILL paying their loans off. These people are just beginning (at 35-40 y.o.) to be able to afford some luxuries in life, but wait--they've got big mortgages, kids (some), and car notes too--so now, they still are under the gun. Maybe these undergrad counselors (and PARENTS) should sit people down and EXPLAIN TO THEM, much like my mom did when I was 19/20 years old, what they can/cannot afford. It would be a great service to our society. People who really don't want to be lawyers wouldn't go to law school, and people who couldn't afford the tuition could make financial arrangements (get a job, mature a bit) before going and making the sacrifice.
These universities and the ABA have, unfortunately, made the law schools the latest MBA-style "whores" in academia. We don't need all of these law schools that graduate all of these people (some of very questionable quality) with all of this debt. You don't see the AMA "whoring" out the med schools, even though we have a health care crisis in this country. Plus, med schools cost more to establish and maintain, and some doctors take up to age 40 to learn their specialty.
Finally, I think the 3rd year of law school is sorely needed, but instead of taking BS classes, there should be a core curriculum for law schools throughout year 1 AND year 2. Year three should be for electives that you should know something about (bankruptcy, IP, accounting, for example) and perhaps an externship with a judge, clinic, or some other practical experience. Too many people taking BS type of electives starting in the 3rd semester of law school. Too many profs getting paid to teach the BS.
That's my rant for today.
@56: I am an adjunct at one of the TTT schools you mention, and most--an overwhelming majority--of the students I see every time I'm at the school are WHITE. Unscientific, yes. But I don't see blacks "filling up" that school by any means...
98,
desparation
98,
desparation
I so agree with the comment re: get rid of career services offices. They are a joke! We can learn all the resume-writing and cover letter writing skills from books!
Most career services offices really don't offer much other than the "networking" advice, arrange OCI, etc.
At least at my law school, we thankfully had to do an externship for academic credit before graduating. So at least in terms of clinical opportunities, my Tier 4 school is on track.
As to the comment on law school financing, I agree that until students get educated as to the real cost and real salaries and decide collectively to refuse to take out these crazy loans, law schools will continue raising tuition.
Something needs to be done so that students have more control over how their tuition money (aka loans) are spent by the schools. It seems to be the case that law schools view the tuition money as a blank check.
To summarize comments 1-118:
Hi, I'm a bitter law student/lawyer who's a beneficiary of these weak law school standards and I'd like DRASTIC changes made to prevent my future/current job market from being so saturated. And even though I've been through 7 years of schooling I still struggle understanding the economic concept of capitalism.
should have followed a professor's advice:
stay at my school for two years; transfer to a state T4 for 3rd year. I'd get my degree from the private school and save about $30K.
live and learn...