Morrison & Foerster Is Paying the Bar Stipend, But We’re Still Waiting on Start Dates
On Wednesday, we reported that Morrison & Foerster hadn’t yet communicated with its incoming first year associates about bar expenses. The firm told Above the Law that it would be letting people know about its bar stipend in the next couple of days.
True to its word, MoFo told incoming associates the good news today. 3Ls received a memo from the firm, this morning:
As you make arrangements to take the upcoming bar exam, I write to update you on the firm’s 2009 bar stipend program. The bar stipend is intended to assist you with registration fees for the bar exam and bar review course, living expenses while studying for the bar, and hotel and transportation expenses while taking the bar exam. This year, the firm will provide a $15,000 bar stipend, distributed in two payments, to all eligible fall associates taking the bar exam in July.The first payment in the amount of $5,000 (minus taxes) will be distributed by April 15, 2009. The second payment in the amount of $10,000 (minus taxes) will be distributed in July 2009. We strongly encourage the use of the first payment for more immediate expenses of registration for the bar exam and bar review course to secure your reservation and early preparation for the exam.
That’s the good news. But after the jump, we see that start dates are still very much up in the air.
3Ls heading to MoFo are still freaking out about their start dates. Unfortunately, the firm couldn’t offer its incoming first years the Xanax they so desperately need:
Finally, regarding start dates for purposes of your planning, the earliest initial starting date will be November 2, 2009. We are committed to working to provide greater certainty regarding starting date alternatives as the year progresses and as we are in a better place to assess the opportunities for effectively incorporating new lawyers into the practice. We will provide you with definitive information about your start date alternatives by Monday, May 11.
May 11th? To put that in a little bit of context, we’re going to know the winner of the 2009 Kentucky Derby before 3Ls know when they will be able to get into the starting gate at MoFo. Chris Pine will boldly go where only one man has gone before by the time MoFo mind melds with its 3Ls. I’ll run out of cheap puns before MoFo … you get the point.
Our Morrison & Foerster tipsters are not taking the delayed announcement of their (likely) deferral lightheartedly:
Can somebody please tell the firm that in this kind of environment where jobs, internships and other opportunities are nil, waiting until May (in the middle of our finals and bar studying) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE?!
Just because the firm is waiting until May, it doesn’t mean you have to. Try to secure a public interest job now and you’ll be protected if MoFo decides to defer your start date for a year.
Earlier: MoFo Watch: Incoming First Years Wait (almost) Patiently For Answers and Money
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1?
FIRST!
FIRST!!!!
what's a battle?
MoFo's mojo is on a slow roll.
Thanks for the Kentucky Derby "context": I'd be completely ignorant of the MoFo situation without it.
Elie - Why don't you start probing about whether these "stipends" for the bar exam have to be repaid (are payments "deferred" for a year as well)? That makes a huge difference. Get on it!
This crisis is being caused by one simple fact: the 2009 and 2010 classes of law schools nationwide are two of the weakest classes to have come through the system in at least 30 years. Law firms are starting to realize that the '09s and '10s are not the caliber of the usual BigLaw candidates, and are rescinding offers accordingly.
The economy is a factor in this, but not a sizable one.
I'm not going to Morrison, but another big firm and I don't know start dates either. However, I've been told that in usual years it's not usually announced until April anyways. So maybe we all should just chill out. That's my philosophy. Worrying about it wont change anything but your mental health.
Good job putting pressure on MoFo, ATL!
Wait, I don't get the stipend. Do they pay bar expenses and registration fees on top of the 15k or do you use the 15k to pay the bar expenses yourself?
Because that's really really weak if you have to pay yourself. Latham's doing the stipend on TOP of expenses.
8,
I like how just becasue I'm graduating in 09, it means I am weaker then those who went to my school and graduated in 07. You're a genius.
8=FLAME
We closed at over 8,000 today boys. That's one small step for the Dow, one giant leap for the economy. Viva la boom of 2009!
9 = SPOT ON!!!
11 - get the fuck over it, seriously. We're in a recession where a crazy portion of our profession, including former biglaw types, are unemployed. Thousands of biglaw associates (i.e. not baby 3Ls who haven't practiced law a day in their lives) aren't getting any paycheck at all. And you want $15,000 on TOP of bar expenses? That's spoiled brat bullshit, seriously.
- still-employed V25 midlevel associate
GOODWIN!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
9,
First, that's just not true in my experience. Most large firms inform their incoming associates of start dates before April.
Second, the "usual years," as you refer to them, did not also involve a high likelihood of substantial delay in start dates so it would not be a big deal. Compare that to this year where firms are telling those associates to wait an entire year and find a new job.
9,
First, that's just not true in my experience. Most large firms inform their incoming associates of start dates before April.
Second, the "usual years," as you refer to them, did not also involve a high likelihood of substantial delay in start dates so it would not be a big deal. Compare that to this year where firms are telling those associates to wait an entire year and find a new job.
8=1L
Also put the heat on Winston & Strawn
18 & 19,
You are just wrong. Early April is the usual. You are definitely a law student.
i havent heard anything from my firm in months. at least mofo is communicating with the incoming class.
17 = flame
Elie, your tipster sounds like a total tool. If your lame tipster needs so much advance notice to plan his or her precious life, they need to grow up and join the real world. If the start date notice is so "UNACCEPTABLE" then don't accept it, and go find another job.
this blog sucks. this article just articulated nothing. 95% of posts are geared towards law students. Blow me hard useless ATL.
"Can somebody please tell the firm that in this kind of environment where jobs, internships and other opportunities are nil, waiting until May (in the middle of our finals and bar studying) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE?!"
Grow up.
The 15K is for you to use to pay bar expenses and for living expenses until you start. It is not a loan, unlike in NY. In CA, firms give you a stipend that you do NOT have to pay back. The 15K is NOT ontop of Barbri. Basically, MoFo gives you the 15K and you spend it as you wish, whether that means taking Barbri or not.
I do not think MoFo is in any trouble. It is simply disorganized because so many staff members have been laid off.
- Chill the F up about the bar stipend. You have other things to worry about - like the bar and the start date.
As MoFo knows, sometimes when you bring the thunder you get lost in the storm.
The 15K is for you to use to pay bar expenses and for living expenses until you start. It is not a loan, unlike in NY. In CA, firms give you a stipend that you do NOT have to pay back. The 15K is NOT ontop of Barbri. Basically, MoFo gives you the 15K and you spend it as you wish, whether that means taking Barbri or not.
I do not think MoFo is in any trouble. It is simply disorganized because so many staff members have been laid off.
- Chill the F up about the bar stipend. You have other things to worry about - like the bar and the start date.
The 15K is for you to use to pay bar expenses and for living expenses until you start. It is not a loan, unlike in NY. In CA, firms give you a stipend that you do NOT have to pay back. The 15K is NOT ontop of Barbri. Basically, MoFo gives you the 15K and you spend it as you wish, whether that means taking Barbri or not.
I do not think MoFo is in any trouble. It is simply disorganized because so many staff members have been laid off.
- Chill the F up about the bar stipend. You have other things to worry about - like the bar and the start date.
Id take this information over hearing nothing from my firm as of yet. I have no idea when I start, when I get my stipend, etc. Shut up you whining little self entitled brats.
I have noticed something, YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS!
"Can somebody please tell the firm that in this kind of environment where jobs, internships and other opportunities are nil, waiting until May (in the middle of our finals and bar studying) IS NOT ACCEPTABLE?!"
--Why? You got so many other firms just chomping at the bit to hire you?
Like the other commenters said, grow up.
Is "whining self entitled" the words of the week? What's with all the lame commentators who think they are putting down concerned law students with this same played out phrase?
Anyone who uses the words "whining self entitled" is lamer than the person they are pointing the finger at, end of story.
And, though I am not one of those people you have been referring to, I don't see anything "self entitled" about an understandable concern about a job falling through in the midst of beginning repayment of massive student loans.
So to all you whiner-haters, grow up. You look more foolish than those you target.
Would you rather know your start date or get your bar stipend?
Elie, don't be hard on yourself. I'm sure you've got enough cheap puns up your size XXXL sleeve to last well into the next decade. Hopefully, you'll be misspelling them somewhere else by May, though.
What is a cold offer?
Goodwin has not communicated with their incoming associates in months. Thanks for putting us at a disadvantage!
MoFo should have signed up w/ GEICO. With all the money they would have saved on their car insurance, they probably could have paid a 20K bar stipend and given first years an August 1 start date.
Seriously, all you whiney b*tches are a bunch of lame assholes. You're lucky to have a job in this economy. You could be poor like Kenny. I like MoFo because they give out candy at their recruitment receptions and it's SWEEEEEET.
May 11. Yeah, that is good timing. Let's see:
1. Some schools still in finals.
2. Dealing with graduation and family in town for graduation
3. Starting bar study -- you know needing to concentrate to pass the most important test of your career.
Fricking brilliant. Just tell them they are deferred to September 2010 already.
38,
What is a google?
43, a google is a large number. It's a one followed by 100 zeros. And 35, you're sooo lame.
42, as a MoFo associate, I partially wish they would announce deferrals until 2010. My job will be safer and there will be less posts about MoFo stipends.
Great advice there at the end, Elie. That way, if the start dates aren't deferred, MoFo associates can screw over the public interest groups (and people who actually want those jobs because they're, you know, good people). Serves them right for trying to work in, what's the phrase... the public interest.
39,
False. Goodwin e-mailed incoming associates in February to tell them to expect a start date in Spring. It's still Spring. Get over yourself.
Also, Goodwin wouldn't shell out a dime for you to do PI work, so its not like you're behind the ball on applying for those jobs.
Hey 16,
V25 is not a category. You must work at 20-25, otherwise you would say V20, and so on. So you must not be as prestigious as me.
V5 Associate
38: A cold offer is one that the firm does not expect/want you to accept. It's a favor to you so while you're looking for a job as a 3L you can say you received an offer but opted to explore other opportunities. In other words, it's a lie -- and firms aren't supposed to do that.
47 - not that I want to head off on a PI deferal year or anything - but why would you say GP wouldn't offer the now common deferal stipend? Do you know something or are you just guessing?
- 3L heading into GP litigation
would a cold offer result in them sending you a letter saying you accepted to start fall 2009? how do i know if i got one?
Perhaps we might have some news and insight on what lawyers are doing, as opposed to all of this information on what folks who want to be lawyers are doing, or not doing as the case seems to be.
http://www.morganlewis.com/index.cfm/newsID/dd3e3c90-5093-42a5-a526-447dc4644229/fuseaction/news.detail
47: First off, thank you for proving my point. I said it has been "months" since the last communication, and you said it was in February, which was two months ago. Glad we're in agreement.
Second, yes they said "spring". And yes it is technically still spring until June 20. Do you think it'd be fine for them to wait until June 20 to inform the incoming associates their plans? I don't think most of the incoming class would agree with you.
Does anyone know how much the 15K comes out to after taxes?
Most firms in California pay 13K on top of Bar expenses. The firms reimburse or pay directly all bar-related expenses without any tax considerations. With Barbri charging almost 5K, and it costing over 1500 to take the bar in CA (moral character, bar registration, laptop fee, MPRE), MoFo is really giving a crappy stipend.
I remember getting a stupid t-shirt from them during OCI. I used it to clean my toilet.
Does anyone know how much the 15K comes out to after taxes?
Most firms in California pay 13K on top of Bar expenses. The firms reimburse or pay directly all bar-related expenses without any tax considerations. With Barbri charging almost 5K, and it costing over 1500 to take the bar in CA (moral character, bar registration, laptop fee, MPRE), MoFo is really giving a crappy stipend.
I remember getting a stupid t-shirt from them during OCI. I used it to clean my toilet.
this is exactly why ATL should exist, despite how awful 85% of the posting is, despite Elie's shocking inability to spell/speak English...
Mofo ignored my 3L friends for months, literally blatantly ignored them. No longer. Nicely done.
Hey 48,
V5 is not a category. You must work at 2-5, otherwise you would say V1, and so on. So you must not be as prestigious as me.
V1 Associate
I think we are entitled to full associate pay right from when we accept the offer. We are worth it.
When is ATL going to post about Dewey & LeBoeuf's massive blood letting this month? Many people were fired, so the firm wouldn't have to pay them bonuses. Yet, despite the fact these people earned bonuses, they were still "performance layoffs."
All these commenters calling us (3Ls with BigLaw jobs) "whiners" should reevaluate that position.
As the poster above pointed out, it costs almost 7K to take the bar exam. That's not including any living expenses, moving expenses, rent, gas money, hotel to stay in while taking the bar, you name it. Bar loans are coming packaged with ridiculous interest rates this year. And good luck getting one without a co-signer.
My law school tuition is around 40K per year. And everyone always forgets to point out that living expenses for three years significantly add to that debt number. We're talking 150K.
No one can honestly say that it's all these law students' fault for getting themselves into this mess. Undergraduate schools, our society, and ESPECIALLY law schools strongly encourage our brightest students to go to law school. But no one is holding up their end of the bargain.
http://www.amazon.com/Trap-Selling-Afloat-Winner-Take-All-America/dp/0805080651
How do you know you got a cold offer? Would they send you a letter saying you're supposed to start in the fall? I haven't heard from my firm in months and am now worried? What if I just didn't know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bar exam expenses (from a 3L)
Barbri $3K
NY Bar $500
How the hell are you guys coming up with a $7K figure? What is wrong with you?
Ain't buying it, 60. Our "brightest students" have never gone to law school -- medical schools and business schools draw the big brains. Law schools are for those who can't cut it in the Big Two.
55, seriously? The MPRE costs $65 and you should've taken that shit way before you go to take the bar. Further Barbri has never been over $4K. What are you taking ??? Double courses? You that dumb?
7K might be a little high, but in California it costs over 5K. Barbri is 3810 and the bar exam and moral character app are about 500 each. That doesn't include registering for the state bar, the laptop fee, etc. I'd say 5500 is pretty accurate, not including living expenses, etc.
This comment is addressed to post no. 60.
Thank you for explaining your dilemma. I have a question for you. Do you think people go to Vegas with their life's savings to come out broke? Avarice drives them to make reckless decisions. It is that same greed that drove you to leverage yourself to the tune of $150K in non-dischargeable student loan debt. Now I get to read about every sob story coming from students that attend the "top" schools. Here is your story: "I am smart. I deserve a good life. I want the easy route. I will go to law school and land a job making more money than I would if left to my own industry. I will take a gamble, incur massive debt to finance an illusory fantasy."
Reality: Instead of enrolling in courses to master the LSAT or re-writing drafts of your tear jerking personal statement, you should have been reading Barron's or the Economist. Had you done that, you would have educated yourself about the economic tsunami of 2008 that was predicted in 2003. You would have known that the economy will be crippled until 2013. Then you would have known law school is a sucker's bet. Here is a newsflash. All the bickering between the different classes is laughable. No one in law school right now, not even the plebes starting law school this September are going to be saved by an economic "bounce." The profession is changing. The business model is undergoing a total overhaul.
Epilogue: You lost. Endgame. Take the severance and be grateful that you were given one. In my day, you came in with nothing, and went out with nothing.
60, wow, what a shocker that law schools encourage gullible people to go to law schools. It's totally not the students' fault that they got suckered in.
Someone told me that I should pay him thousands of dollars to access some Nigerian accounts, and I believed him and gave him the money. It's not my fault I made the stupid decisions.
Personal responsibility surrenders. That is change we can believe in.
7K v. 5.5K. That's an overestimation of 1.5K or roughly 22%. Talk about playing the worlds smallest violin for you. My dad walked uphill to school, both ways.
68, so did my dad. And he didn't even have feet!!
66 - You went a little out of character there for a minute.
They ship be sinking...but me love me some 'MoFo'!
They firm named after mofuckas!
66=T 40 law school drop out
71 - I love you.
12:
It isn't "just" because you are an '09 or '10. Law firms have taken a look at the talent pool as a whole and they see that it is just on a downward slide... '09s and '10s don't demonstrate the potential to become excellent lawyers that other classes have shown. I have practiced for a few years now and I can tell you that we are looking at the current talent pool as very, very dry. There are a few good candidates, sure, but most of them have been snapped up by the very top firms in the big markets. Firms who don't have those people available to them are doing the prudent thing and pulling the plug on most of these individuals.
Partner Emeritus rules. You gotta admit, he's right.
We have a QUINNER
to all the posters complaining about drowning in debt: boo fucking hoo. nobody forced you to go to law school. you all had the option of living in your parents basement for 2-3 years and saving up to not be screwed in the current environment. you didn't. you don't have a trust fund. you aren't number 1 in your class at a t10. well, too bad.
stop whining. and welcome to reality.
Everyone needs to get out of their bubble. Going to law school was not a bad decision. EVERY high-paying job is really suffering in this economy, with the exception of doctors. And doctors spend 10 years making peanuts and working at least as much as V10 lawyers in ALL economies before they make any real money. And look at blue collar workers. They are getting laid off en masse, without any $65K stup or severace. Wake up. You're better off then most. Even you Lathamed first years. You're in for a rough patch. But this is still a blip on the radar.
How many great minds at MoFo were involved in putting this memo together. Cold comfort. Never mind the 3L's, MoFo's creditors must be wetting their pants!
@60-Mr. P.E. just broke it down for you son.
77 - to all the posters complaining about drowning in debt: boo fucking hoo. nobody forced you to go to law school. you all should've been born to rich parents like me so as not be screwed in the current environment. you didn't. you don't have a trust fund. you aren't number 1 in your class at a t10. well, too bad.
stop whining. and welcome to reality.
Also on 4/3, MoFo also sent an e-mail to incoming summer associates reducing the length of the summer program from 10 to 8 weeks.
Hey law students? Do you have stories about how much it sucks to be a lawstudent now? Or are you constantly surrounded by assholes? Something funny to share?
Email your story to lawstudentssuck@gmail.com
This will be for an article on the current suckiness of lawschool in general during these economic times.
All info will be kept confidential.
Lawyers from US, UK find jobs in India
27 Mar 2009,
BANGALORE: Indian law firms and legal process outsourcing outfits have been attracting many American and British law professionals in the past
few months.
The reason: The recession has severely impacted the global legal practising industry; one out of every 10 lawyers in the US is said to have been laid off. To cut cost, many corporations are discontinuing their contracts with external law firms or are outsourcing a substantial portion of their legal engagements to countries like India. This has resulted in a flood of US/UK lawyer CVs to India.
81 - i was not born to rich parents. but i gained a bit of common sense growing up. which most of these babies didn't. because, unlike me, they're all "special". my kids will have that better option. and if everybody else drowns in debt, less competition for them.
Have any of you idiots ever even thought about the fact that you don't have to take Barbri.? The exam isn't that hard.
Elie,
THANK YOU for the original and follow up posts. Without it, MoFo doubtless wouldn't have bothered replying to us until they damn well felt like it. At least now I know when I'll be able to pay off that $3,800 for Bar Bri...
As for those of you who don't think CA costs more than other states, consider that the bar exam there is 3 days, not 2, giving Bar Bri an excuse to charge substantially more. Also, CA tries to gouge its attorney applicants with additional asinine registration fees. When you add it all up, you're looking at well over $5K--don't forget taxes and all the rest.
I love you, Elie!
32,
If your firm refuses to communicate with you, as MoFo had been refusing to communicate with us, then maybe ATL can apply some pressure on your behalf, too. Don't just sit back, whining and putting others down.
We all deserve to be kept in the loop, even if the answers aren't always what we want to hear or if the answer is simply, "We don't know yet." MoFo was refusing to return calls--attorney recruiting was acting downright childish.
-87
86, no, the sheeple have followed the herd their entire lives and they cannot deviate from what everyone else is doing. Their entire sense of self-worth is predicated on conforming with others. Heaven forbid they spend $500 to study for the bar with Micromash or some other outfit.
Yo, assholes, this motherfucker's dead!
89, Micromash is not $500. It is $1600 for the standard state and MBE review.
And 86, saying the test is not that hard so there is no need to take a review is, well, ridiculous; even if it is not that hard -- it is supposed to test minimum competency, after all, albeit on more subjects than most students take while at school -- but as our entire ability to practice law depends on our passing it, deciding not to participate in a review course seems unbelievably short-sighted and unjustifiably risky. You are calling people idiots for taking the exam seriously and preparing for it as if it matters -- which it clearly does. They are not idiots. You are.
The Bar is ridiculously easy. But you can't go into it with that mindset. The people who do so and blow it off or take ghetto review courses are invariably the ones who fail.