Notes from the Breadline: To Be On Your Own
Ed. note: Welcome to the latest installment of “Notes from the Breadline,” a column by a laid-off lawyer in New York. Prior columns are collected here. You can reach Roxana St. Thomas by email (at roxanastthomas@gmail.com), follow her on Twitter, or find her on Facebook.
Friends, family, and complete strangers have, at times, suggested this response to unemployment: “Hang out a shingle!” I may have mentioned, in past columns, that I don’t care for the idea. In fact, I may have mentioned it on more than one occasion.
Whether to hang out a shingle seems to be one of life’s persistent questions. Recently, I was chatting with my editor here at Above the Law and, sure enough, it came up in our conversation. “So,” Lat said, “why don’t you want to hang out a shingle?” Before I knew it, I had been tasked with compiling a list of reasons why, exactly, I don’t think that hanging the much-discussed shingle is for me. So, in no particular order, here goes.
1. Shingles aren’t free.
There’s a reason why some clients and companies have begun to seek legal advice that is freshly made in India, the Philippines, and other offshore locations. The rates charged by stateside lawyers are the sum total of a number of components, many of which are substantive, and related to the expertise provided by a particular attorney. But a lawyer’s price tag also reflects pesky factors like overhead, which can be considerable. Although I imagine that I could fashion the actual shingle using DIY techniques learned in high school, or on one of many shows on Bravo (or perhaps a design model borrowed from successful lemonade stands everywhere), there is the not-insignificant matter of where the shingle would hang. Office spaces in New York range in price, but they start at around $1,000 per month, which — if you’re lucky — may buy you something like this.
Mind you, this is just for office space. All of those things we take for granted when the firm provides them, from copy paper to computers, require additional expenditures. While it may be true that when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose, it is also true that most landlords / vendors / putative office staff generally will not agree to be paid in “nothings.”
More reasons, after the jump.
2. On a related note, it costs a lot to run a railroad.
Let’s assume, arguendo, that we find an office space in which to hang the “Law Offices of Roxana St. Thomas” shingle. Then what? In the course of the average day at the average firm, big or small, the average lawyer runs up quite a tab in the process of creating the average work product. There are the obvious costs to consider — you make phone calls, a messenger takes your motion to court for filing, a secretary may answer your phone. But there are also the costs which (if you’re used to working for The Man) tend to escape notice. You probably keep track of your billable hours using time management software, belong to a bar association, attend CLE, and maintain a web presence through your firm’s site. You are almost certainly insured against errors, omissions, and malpractice. And, of course, there is the necessary, though costly, matter of research. I urge you, if only for frolic and detour, to look into the rates charged by Lexis and Westlaw. They are nothing short of breathtaking: the cost of few hours in the ALLFEDS database is probably not much different than the cost of renting a private jet for the same block of time.
Sure, there are cheaper ways to address some of these needs, but at what cost to productivity? For example, one could, in theory, work from home. What happens, however, when it comes time to meet with a client? For any number of reasons (two of which are feline), no amount of Queer Eye-inspired refurbishing would make my apartment presentable in the professional sense. Would we meet in Starbucks? The café at Whole Foods? The New York Public Library near my house, which has a separate (and usually empty) children’s reading room? We would have to sit in tiny chairs, knees bumping our chins, surrounded by Thomas the Tank Engine and other figures from children’s literature. But at least it would be quiet.
Perhaps most importantly, how much does it cost to equip an office with hot and cold running coffee?
3. Someone has to be the conductor.
I know lawyers who revel in the nuts and bolts of practice. They immerse themselves in evaluating the pros and cons of various technologies designed just for lawyers. They view themselves as “managers,” delight in the science of mastering workflow, and keep an audiobook about the secrets of successful rainmaking queued in their CD player. They can enumerate at least Seven Habits that make them Highly Effective People.
None of the above-mentioned traits or talents are within my repertoire, or, as they are known in public service, “KSAs.” (That’s a handy government acronym for knowledge, skills, and abilities.) The daily administrative demands of running a law firm would, I suspect, lead me expeditiously to either malpractice or insanity, perhaps both.
Is it important to challenge yourself, and, at times, push yourself beyond your comfort zone? Sure. It is, however, equally important to be realistic about one’s core capabilities. I was (and am) a good lawyer; it doesn’t mean that I would be good at running a law practice, even if it were my own. And while I suspect I could play the part of solo practitioner/office manager for a short time, I do not believe that I could actually be those things. As Joan Cusack explained in Working Girl, “Sometimes I sing and dance around the house in my underwear. Doesn’t make me Madonna. Never will.”
4. What color would my parachute be?
A while back, my friend Giovanna and I were talking about the practical realties (or, in our case, the unrealities) of hanging out the ol’ shingle. “Honestly,” she said, “I hate to say this, but I don’t think I’d be qualified to work as a solo practitioner.” After years of working on large, document-intensive cases, she explained, she did not feel as though she had the kind of experience one would need to be a generalist, as most solos are (at least initially).
That, I suppose, is the yin and yang of working at a Big Law Firm: as an associate, you have the opportunity to work on bigger, more complex cases than a smaller practitioner might be exposed to. On the other hand, this kind of work leaves you ill-prepared to do real estate closings, divorces, custody cases, and DWIs. Putting aside the timeless debate about whether the work done by associates at Big Law Firms is “substantive,” Giovanna makes an excellent point. And, although my background is slightly different than hers, I have the same concern about whether I could represent clients in the kinds of matters that are the bread-and-butter of solo practice without too much egregious fumbling.
Recently, I read an article about “niche specialization,” which seems to be another term for “truly eclectic practice.” The special niches discussed in the article included “wine law” and “video game law.” One lawyer even opened a practice in the virtual world known as Second Life. “It’s a place where you can wander around as a character and interact with other people,” he was quoted as saying. “We opened up an office there as well just to try it out and do something different.”
(I couldn’t help wondering what the CLE requirements are like in Second Life, and whether there are virtual bar functions at which your virtual colleagues consume too much virtual cheese and box wine. More to the point, could one open a virtual office in Grand Theft Auto? There, I thought, is fertile ground for virtual clients … and, if worse came to worse, you could always deck them and drive away in their (virtual) car.)
Then again, everyone says that there is a steep, though surmountable, learning curve for practitioners who strike out on their own. In fact, the bar may be lower than you might think. The other day, the guy who works at my local dry cleaner asked me why I hadn’t been in recently. When I told him that I’d lost my job, he suggested that I open an immigration practice in Chinatown.
“There’s just one problem,” I told “John” (as he is known in the neighborhood). “I don’t speak Chinese.” He was unfazed. “It don’t matter!” he said brightly, with the same impermeable optimism I’d seen him muster with patrons who wanted to know why their favorite sweater suddenly looked as though it had been pilfered from Barbie’s closet. “A lot of lawyers take the money, and then they don’t file any papers. As long as you don’t do the fucking-over, you can be very …” He paused to search for the right word. “… successful!” For a minute, it seemed eminently doable.
5. Would I have to do one of those ridiculous ads?
You know what I’m talking about. You’ve seen them on billboards, on the subway, and on late night television. They tell you whom to call “When diamonds aren’t forever,” “When you’re only allowed one phone call,” or if you or a loved one has had the misfortune of ingesting lead paint, being exposed to asbestos, or suffering an injury in, on, or remotely related to a New York City bus, train, or hospital. If your problem concerns taxes, you might be instructed to “Call Roni Deutch!,” a woman who has labeled herself “The Tax Lady,” and emphatically promises to save your ass if “tax problems are ruining your life.”
Similarly, if obstacles to collecting Social Security benefits are getting you down, you might want to call the fellow from Binder & Binder, who assures his distraught potential clients that he (and his partner, Binder #2) will “deal with the government,” because “You have enough to worry about.” At least I think that’s what he says; I have never been able to watch the ad without being distracted by my speculation as to why he delivers this (otherwise soothing) message while wearing an Indiana Jones-style hat.
The Binders are, apparently, America’s most successful Social Security Disability Advocates. Perhaps the hats (which are worn by both Binders) are part of their “brand.” Perhaps a hat translates into marketing gold. You can’t rule these things out.
My point is that, in this ultra-competitive environment, one has to spread the word somehow. Since I no longer have Cliff to act as in-house ad consigliere, I’d have to come up with my own material. While I have a few ideas, none of them are quite ready for prime time, and, in truth, I don’t know whether I’m ready to take that step. In the unlikely event that I do, however, I’m pretty sure that the current, challenging legal market calls for innovation, and new (possibly unconventional) ways of providing value-added legal services. How’s this for starters?
“Roxana St. Thomas, Esq. can handle all your legal needs! Roxana will represent you in civil or criminal matters in state or federal court. And she easily removes cola, wine, and pet stains, doesn’t drip or make a mess, and washes, dries and polishes any surface. Apply directly to the forehead… Apply directly to the forehead!”
___________________________________________________________________________
Roxana St. Thomas is a laid-off lawyer living in New York. You can reach her by email (at roxanastthomas@gmail.com), follow her on Twitter, or find her on Facebook.
(220) Comments
Comments
Great list of reasons to continue sitting around, doing nothing.
Taxes are due today.
do you think your race (black) had anything to do with getting laid off in the first place?
IT IS TIME FOR LAID-OFF ASSOCIATES TO GATHER IN THE STREETS OF MANHATTAN AND TEAR THE BIGLAW FIRMS DOWN
The most immportant reason is "clients." Very few people know enough people to have a client base right away. It takes years to develop. Often, during the first year of solo practice the attorney actually looses money.
Oh, sure, leave the fucking-over for someone else to do.
if we tear biglaw down there will be plenty of clients in need of lawyers
Texas releases its Feb 2007 bar results today.
So she's been posting for months about how hard it sucks to be out of work, how hard it is to look for work, how "hanging a shingle" (take a drink every time you see the phrase!), etc. But if she were to talk about how hard it is AND YET she is doing something to overcome it (she and five other laid off associates start up their own practice to defray the cost, for example), this column would be worthwhile. Instead, she's just bitching and moaning and "woe is me" about the whole thing. Yes, Roxana, the whole world is out to get you. But what are YOU going to do about it?
It would be interesting to see a post on here about possible stimulus money that could be used to start a solo practice. That would at least be an informative post that would give some lawyers valuable information.
So, Elie, what funds are available from the federal government for young lawyers who want to hang a shingle?
She sounds like a whiner/loser and probably is. Grow up and act like an adult. For God's sake, why do our law schools produce people like her, who has got no guts, plenty of infantile attachment to trivial things and studifying sense of entitlement to things that they are not willing to work hard for?
Retired partner here: The truth comes out. The actual practice of law scares the hell out of most newly minted attorneys, thus the drive to hide in large law firms where it's possible to earn a huge salary but never actually practice law.
It's called book of business - get one, then hang your shingle.
Retired partner here: The truth comes out. The actual practice of law scares the hell out of most newly minted attorneys, thus the drive to hide in large law firms where it's possible to earn a huge salary but never actually practice law.
So she's been posting for months about how hard it sucks to be out of work, how hard it is to look for work, how "hanging a shingle" (take a drink every time you see the phrase!), etc. But if she were to talk about how hard it is AND YET she is doing something to overcome it (she and five other laid off associates start up their own practice to defray the cost, for example), this column would be worthwhile. Instead, she's just bitching and moaning and "woe is me" about the whole thing. Yes, Roxana, the whole world is out to get you. But what are YOU going to do about it?
Mysteriously gay, observantly toss salad
Into the bleakest night
Canadians are people too
So she's been posting for months about how hard it sucks to be out of work, how hard it is to look for work, how "hanging a shingle" (take a drink every time you see the phrase!), etc. But if she were to talk about how hard it is AND YET she is doing something to overcome it (she and five other laid off associates start up their own practice to defray the cost, for example), this column would be worthwhile. Instead, she's just bitching and moaning and "woe is me" about the whole thing. Yes, Roxana, the whole world is out to get you. But what are YOU going to do about it?
For the love of God, is this Rox bitch *still* whinning?!
Normally I actually really like these posts, but this one kinda bored me
Yawn. Another terrible post by Melissa Lafsky (whiny legal blogger extraordinaire).
CLIENTS!!! The biggest problem is CLIENTS!!! Where are you going to get your f*%&$ing clients? And are they paying clients? As a laid off biglaw-yer, I've discussed this many times with people still employed and not - we all come to the same end result - you need clients. Everything else can be done somewhat cost effectively for a few months or so at the beginning, but getting a good client, there's the rub.
16 - wtf
Excellent list of why your are not a problem solver
Roxanna banna fo fanna fee fi slow manna
Canadians are made out of people
Hey dumb bitch.
GET
A
F
U
C
K
I
N
G
JOB.
SO YOU WON'T MAKE $160,000 ANYMORE. WHO THE HELL SAID YOU DESERVED THAT MUCH? THERE ARE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THEIR CARS AND ON THE STREET, WHO WOULD KILL FOR $12/HOUR. YOU DON'T DESERVE ANY BETTER THAN THEY DO. SO STFU AND GET YOUR LAZY ASS TO AN EMPLOYMENT CLINIC.
Comment removed by moderator.
*SHANKS A PARTNER*
*SKANKS ARE THE SMARTER*
To think of the 200,000 unemployed vets unable to find minimum wage work, and this obnoxious woman is on here pretending she is a victim because she can't make $160,000. Nigga please.
The less on of Notes from the Breadline:
1. Can't find another job in NY
2. Won't leave NY to go WHERE THE JOBS ARE
3. Won't hang a shingle b/c she doesn't have the skill
Why were you worth $160k+ again?
I agree with all of the critical comments. But, to be honest, I doubt I'd have the balls to start my own shit either. A big part of the problem is that I'm too young to be credible, don't know enough people, and still have learning to do. I suspect Rox is in the same boat (though she has been there for what, 5 years?).
On the other hand, there's no excuse to continue sitting around doing nothing, even if going solo isn't the answer. Grow up and stop whining.
A ton of reasons NOT to do something, yet not a single one of to DO something.
You're a lawyer, find a way around the problem instead of looking at it whining and saying "I can't." No wonder you have no clients, I wouldn't want someone to solve my problem who can't figure out how to solve a problem.
You had clients at your old firm. You didn't take any of them with you. You can work from your living room while you get started. You can advertise on craigslist, network among your friends for clients, etc. There are a ton of things you can do besides whine about how hard it is, so why even try.
This Roxana girl is really depressing. Getting tired of reading all of the reasons why life is so hard and holding her down. It's un-American. I'm not saying that she should be succeeding, but every one of these depressing posts should outline a gameplan to attack the situation. Exactly as another poster put it, what are you going to do about it?
This is, frankly, pathetic.
A ton of reasons NOT to do something, yet not a single one of to DO something.
You're a lawyer, find a way around the problem instead of looking at it whining and saying "I can't." No wonder you have no clients, I wouldn't want someone to solve my problem who can't figure out how to solve a problem.
You had clients at your old firm. You didn't take any of them with you. You can work from your living room while you get started. You can advertise on craigslist, network among your friends for clients, etc. There are a ton of things you can do besides whine about how hard it is, so why even try.
Is it bad that this story made me a little horny?
ATL, do us all a favor and fire Roxana from this job, too.
I wholeheartedly concur with #30, and add that the firm that paid her $160K wasted every penny.
This essay made me scared of biglaw. Seeing the benefits of midlaw more every day.
It would be interesting to see a post on here about possible stimulus money that could be used to start a solo practice. That would at least be an informative post that would give some lawyers valuable information.
So, Elie, what funds are available from the federal government for young lawyers who want to hang a shingle?
Roxana,
It's extremely easy to start your own practice.
1. You don't need a big fancy office. Work out of your apartment.
2. You don't need huge start up costs. Malpractice insurance isn't that much.
3. You dont' need big fancy clients. Lots of poor people willing to spend on legal services.
Here's a recent grad starting his own practice.
http://lawlawstud.blogspot.com/2009/03/solo-practice-business-license.html
The problem, Roxana, is that you are a dumb obnoxious worthless asshole. If you can't figure out how to open up a measily law practice, then what the f*ck are you doing advising large businesses on their legal affairs?!??!
She is not an American.
She is an American't!
N. Wacker Stud
@Retired Partner. The real problem is that law school doesn't actually teach you to practice law. If you are an actual retired partner you would know this simple fact.
They never teach you how to file motions, take depositions, keep client trust accounts etc. Even most first and second year associates could not open up a practice of their own, particularly if they have been doing DD most of the time. Most young lawyers would be malpractice waiting to happen if they set up their own shop.
The other problem with hanging a shingles is clients. Some people have mentioned it above but the issue is far deeper. You have to have clients that can pay for legal services. If more and more people are unemployed then that is fewer potential clients.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/business/10lawyer.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=acting%20as%20own%20lawyer&st=cse
9 nailed it. (The 2 duplicate posts, I dunno...)
I was hoping Roxana would get out of whiner mode finally, after the barrage of comments from the last couple of posts. Now it's just her trying too hard to rationalize her own continued unemployment.
Also, has anyone noticed that this is the second time she's pointedly used the phrase "frolic & detour"? Frolic from ATL Idol said she was heading into academia but could that plan have been derailed by biglaw layoffs?
http://abovethelaw.com/2008/08/atl_idol_frolic_detour_farewell.php
I wouldn't want to hang a shingle either for many of the same reasons plus the fact that, as a class of 06 grad, I don't know the first thing about getting a client!
39 is exhibit a for the obamanation generation
we're not going to subsidize your recovery, you fool
this country was built on people who took risks, worked hard, and didn't look to the government to be their nanny
this country is in danger of being destroyed by the obamanation generation ... and they don't even realize it, sitting around waiting for their bailout
reminds me of the idiot who said she voted for obama and now he owes her, expecting him to pay her car loan and her mortgage
the first 20 installments of this were interesting, and now it is just, well, uninteresting.
43: 9 here. It was my first comment, didn't realize I was posting 3x! Sorry!
41 - NAILED IT
I'll give her this...the Binder hat comment referencing Indiana Jones is hilarious. I've always wondered why that tool thinks wearing a fedora with the Empire State Building in the background somehow equates to a successful practice.
You asshole trolls will never stop and give her a break, will you. Get a life.
As for the column, I thought it was a pretty good summary. The stark reality is that in NYC, you can't "hang a shingle" unless you have a fat book of business (I'd say at least 200K of guaranteed billables at a minimum).
I am laid off biglaw attorney and am myself considering hanging a shingle but I live in a smallish suburban town where this is easier for a number of different reasons. But, first I plan on enjoying suckling every bit of my biglaw severance and unemployment comp from my former employer.....
Yes We Can't!
It is always the darkest just after you turn out the lights!
Kick me in the a55Lobster!
50 is an idiot
1. There are plenty of places that offer office space for rent for a few hours at a time, for when you have to meet clients in a professional setting. The rest of the time, work from home.
2. You get clients by telling your friends and acquaintances that you're starting a business. Once you do a good job, they refer you to others who might need your services. Also, ask for referrals from other lawyers who have conflicts. Where do you think everyone else gets clients? You're right, nobody has ever gotten clients before.
3. Write your billable time on a piece of paper, answer your own phones and do your own filings, you lazy self-entitled bum.
4. And hey lady, you don't have to be a solo lawyer in Manhattan. There is a whole world outside the island.
Obviously the writer did not research this issue very thoroughly and is merely making excuses about her utter failure in life.
The problem is she wants to open up a really nice practice.
Yes, I agree with you if your assertion is that it's hard to open up a fancy solo.
But it's not hard to get a job or to open up *a* solo. You just need to lower your compensation expectations.
50 is everything wrong w/ this country. Go to Europe of you want indefinite subsidized unemployment.
How can you possibly say that a fedora and the Empire State Building don't represent success? Binder, is the biggest swinging dick of all the big swinging dicks in all of the land. Plus he is on TV.
Suck it up. Welcome to the reality of the majority of lawyers in America.
Let's see, the whining big law sycophant could:
1. Work remotely from Starbucks and place a sign at her table saying "free legal consultation".
2. Start networking by attending group events where there are no lawyers, just layman.
3. Become proficient in an area of the law by reading and writing and joining a trade group associated with that area and volunteer to give speeches or hold seminars at no charge.
4. Hang around in the courthouse and try to meet people who show up for simple commercial or housing matters that need lawyers.
5. Post a profile on one of the dating sites announcing that she is the smartest unemployed potential catch and focus her search in areas that are sparsely populated with women, with the hope that a hermetic millionaire might want companionship and estate planning.
6. Make a career change by distributing Pennysavers.
7. Retire at an early age and perfect the art of daydreaming and wall staring.
There are actually some real ideas in this post. Get to it girfriend and stop looking for the big law nipple to suck on. It has had a major breast reduction.
More to follow.
55: the problem with the 50s of this blog is that they are the obamamaniacs who are trying to turn this country into a Euro-style Nanny State ...
if not worse, as in something akin to Chavez's Venezuela
@5" "looses"???? Better try very hard to get that longshot Biglaw job so that someone who is actually literate can review your writing before it leads to public embarrassment.
You are all idiots.
Skadden Stud
My husband was laid off from an auditing firm several months ago. After looking intensely (all over the country, I might add) he realized that this wasn't going to happen so he's starting his own audit shop. He works out of our kitchen table. He designed his own website. He got out there networking immediately and contacted old clients to drum up business. In this economy, it's obviously difficult, but at least he's trying. And when the economy does recover, he will have his choice: Pick up a job at another audit firm or take advantage of the increased demand and growing his own business.
People have said they think what he's doing is too risky, but there really aren't many other options. I'm very proud of him. At least he isn't blogging away his sorrows w/o a solution.
58, how do I know you are telling the truth? I want proof of life.
There were some very funny lines in this. E.g., "the cost of few hours in the ALLFEDS database is probably not much different than the cost of renting a private jet for the same block of time."
Hilarious. Although, for the record, I think there are "all-you-can-eat" Westlaw packages for solos that are much cheaper than what the Biglaw firms can get.
55, when you give people free money, people end up abusing the system. Who would have thought?
But hey, let's expand the system of handouts even more. It's not "welfare" if you call it a "refundable" tax credit (with 25% fraud rate).
Yes We Can!
This column gets worse with each post. There's no sympathy for this worth(use)less woman and her constant whining. My advice to you is to get any job you can possibly land. Pour some coffee at starbucks if you have to. Binder&Binder references aside, this post makes Mystal look brilliant.
I would just set up an office in my 3500 sq ft wife.
Man with a 3500 sq ft wife and a Lexis.
What matters most as a blogger is your ability to engage your audience. It doesn't matter whether they agree with you or disagree with you, or whether they like you or dislike you. It's about being READ.
By this standard, Roxie is a huge success (and you could say the same about MysTTTal). We may attack them in the comments. But we're still reading them, aren't we?
I love how she talks about needing billable hours software, as if an Excel spreadsheet wouldn't do the trick. Talk about guzzling the big law kool-aid.
Dear Roxana,
There is a whole world of legal research software out there besides the big two. Many are flat rate. Look into loislaw.
Even lexis and westlaw have highly discounted rates and flat fees for small practitioners.
You can also get free access through certain memberships in bar associations.
You are just making excuses for your incompetence and cowardice when you can't even figure this out.
Roxana may have a defeatist attitude, but she's a very good writer. This is nicely turned prose:
"We would have to sit in tiny chairs, knees bumping our chins, surrounded by Thomas the Tank Engine and other figures from children's literature. But at least it would be quiet."
62 and her hubbie obviously didn't vote for THE ONE
There are legitimate reasons not to strike out as a solo, the primary ones being: (a) it costs money to make money, and she may not have the money for even a small solo office start-up and (b) to make money from the get-go, you have to have a book of business, which she doesn't have. Unfortunately, she doesn't make those points, instead coming across as if her concerns are that her office would not be sufficiently nice and she couldn't come up with decent ad material.
Take the suggestion seriously and explain why it wouldn't work for you, or don't address it. But to list only weak-ass reasons for not doing it (I have cats!) and to make fun of lawyers who _do_ have successful practices (like those hilarious hat-wearing Binders) just makes you look bitter and stupid.
I have enjoyed your columns; this one, not so much.
Roxana, you can work from home and rent "virtual office space" for couple of hundred a month for those meetings. Everything else you can do virtually/on your cell phone.
Well, you certainly are not lacking in excuses.
People, Roxana isn't saying she is unwilling to work. As she has mentioned before, she is applying for job after job.
She is just explaining why she is temperamentally unsuited to solo practice. What is so objectionable about that?
72 - If 62 and hubbie voted for obama, they never would again, because now they understand that their success is not dependent on the government but on their hard work and smart choices. Wish that others here could grasp that bit of what used to be common sense, then we'd have a country with a brighter future.
If I can orally please myself, am I gay?
Retired partner here: I don't know why I'm mentioning this, but here goes. Getting clients isn't an impossible task for a newly laid off attorney who opens a solo practice or joins a small firm. Large and mid-size firms don't handle PI work and most lower paying types of work. Market yourself to attorneys in those firms, asking them to send you the work they don't want. You might be surprised how much work comes your way. Larger firms usually have an informal list, sometimes formal. Big clients have employees with small problems, and they need attorneys that don't cost a lot. Also, attorneys in large firms are always being approached by friends, neighbors, and strangers who have small junk that needs to be done. If you're willing to take this type of work, the big dog attorneys will be more than happy to throw you the scaps, and scraps can quckily add up to a good meal.
77, this is 62.
We understood that all along.
No, we never voted for Obama.
Stop twittering your life away and start earning your keep like everyone else you whiny bitch!
UVA '02
76, because she didn't say that and instead made up excuses about the cost of prime office space in Manhattan, the high rates charged by Lexis/Westlaw to big firms, the cost of time management software, and the expense of hiring a secretary and a messenger boy.
I do not have buttsecks.
Nope, not buying it. I don't mean to be insulting, but it sounds to me like you have excuse after excuse. Every business startup faces the exact same challenges, yet millions of successful small businesses start up every day; and, you have the advantage of a partial monopoly (law degrees cannot be bought by a private equity firm)! It isn't fun being laid off (or having your pay cut until you quit), but you can make it on your own pretty easily.
I graduated in the midst of the Last Great Legal Recession (1992) so I feel for you, I really do. I was lucky after getting laid off and got another job, but my best friend was laid off and he "hung out his shingle" despite all of the reasons not to do so. He is now a successful plaintiff's attorney (not something I would ever want to do but it made him feel like he was doing something socially meaningful). Since then, I have known lots of laid off and even fired lawyers from Biglaw who are making more money than me now in their crummy little solo offices (Biglaw may not be good for GP experience, but its great for referrals).
1) Singles aren't free, but neither are lawyers. Yes, you have to front some expenses (Mom, Dad, Sugar Daddy?) but it the scheme of startup expenses, a grand a month ain't that much. After 6-12 months you should actually be earning profits (at bargain basement $250 an hour, you only need to get 4 billable hours to pay a whole month of rent).
2) It doesn't cost that much if you are smart and resourceful. Get an office in a "lawyer park" to start out in. These are multi-lawyer trailer parks that have copiers, sometimes computers, phone, internet, reception and, thank god, coffee service for one monthly fee. It may set you back $1,500 instead of $1,000 but you'll get back a year's rent on your first matter or two. Lexis has a small firm monthly packages, and there are several ultra-cheap competitors to Lexis and Westlaw (try Versuslaw which is a measly $25 for unlimited access per month, less than few Lattes).
3) Welcome to the real world. Everyone from the drug dealer on the corner, to your cab drivers, to your corner convenience store, to your Biglaw partners, has to LEARN to run their businesses. No one (I repeat NO ONE) likes this or takes naturally to it. We ALL have to learn how to run our lives and businesses. Deal with it. "All on our own" (isn't that a song?). For all your life I suspect, you have been insulated and babied - its not your fault, but its why the Great Ol' USA is falling. 12 years of prep school, 4 years of college, 3 years of law school. Not a single day of work for many folks unless you grow up poor (and if you did grow up poor, you probably didn't make it into expensive $$$ law school and you certainly wouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of billing clients every month). So suck it up an learn. You will have to eventually even if you are in Biglaw, trust me.
4) John has it right, and so do you. Of course you are completely unprepared for any real world, non-Biglaw work. But you can learn, you have the tools. And clearly you have the writing and presentation skills to excel. Divorce case comes in? You know what to do. Go find a book on handling divorce cases, read your state's divorce statutes, and check local rules in the court. If you do all that , you will be a better lawyer than 75% of the solo practitioners out there.
5) You seem to be pretty good at spreading the word, but consider this: how many matters does your old Biglaw firm turn down every day because its too small, not "Biglaw enough", or because of conflicts or too high billing rates? Probably a LOT of matters. I assume you made **some** friends that are still in Biglaw. Ask them to refer cases to you. Better than any late night TV ad, and soon you will need to hire some out of work associates to handle all the work. Most if not all former Biglaw solo practitioners are doing very well feeding at the teat of their alma mater.
If you can't find a job...it's because you're not offering a return on investment that is equivalent to what others are offering.
Or in other words...you suck.
58 has it completely right. Do some thinking for once, and get creative. Family lawyers can make some good cash. Immigration lawyers can make some good cash. Work out of your apartment. Put a phone number in the yellow pages. Get an internet site.
Network and ask people for employment.
Go live at home with mommy/daddy and tell people that you'll work for free for a couple of months.
Start your own pro bono...
I could go on, but maybe that will just be embarrassing for those who can't be creative and figure this out for themselves.
What a joke.
I do not have buttsecks.
I wonder if there is even one reader of these many whinefests who would ever consider hiring Roxana as a lawyer for good money. My guess is no.
Yes, anyone?????
If so, WHY?
"More to the point, could one open a virtual office in Grand Theft Auto? There, I thought, is fertile ground for virtual clients ... and, if worse came to worse, you could always deck them and drive away in their (virtual) car."
That kind of idiotic thinking is what got you into trouble in the first place.
May I have a bowl of bitter salad with those scraps.
Topic = good.
Concerns addressed = good.
Anecdotes = good.
Jokes = not bad.
Writing = good.
Attitude = terrible.
One of the things that excites me about having a law license is that I'm a walking business. If you make it clear to your friends and acquaintances that you will help theme with their legal problems, you are ALREADY a law firm. Then do a good job for the first person you help. And the second one. Until excellence becomes a habit.
Nope, not buying it. I don't mean to be insulting, but it sounds to me like you have excuse after excuse. Every business startup faces the exact same challenges, yet millions of successful small businesses start up every day; and, you have the advantage of a partial monopoly (law degrees cannot be bought by a private equity firm)! It isn't fun being laid off (or having your pay cut until you quit), but you can make it on your own pretty easily.
I graduated in the midst of the Last Great Legal Recession (1992) so I feel for you, I really do. I was lucky after getting laid off and got another job, but my best friend was laid off and he "hung out his shingle" despite all of the reasons not to do so. He is now a successful plaintiff's attorney (not something I would ever want to do but it made him feel like he was doing something socially meaningful). Since then, I have known lots of laid off and even fired lawyers from Biglaw who are making more money than me now in their crummy little solo offices (Biglaw may not be good for GP experience, but its great for referrals).
1) Singles aren't free, but neither are lawyers. Yes, you have to front some expenses (Mom, Dad, Sugar Daddy?) but it the scheme of startup expenses, a grand a month ain't that much. After 6-12 months you should actually be earning profits (at bargain basement $250 an hour, you only need to get 4 billable hours to pay a whole month of rent).
2) It doesn't cost that much if you are smart and resourceful. Get an office in a "lawyer park" to start out in. These are multi-lawyer trailer parks that have copiers, sometimes computers, phone, internet, reception and, thank god, coffee service for one monthly fee. It may set you back $1,500 instead of $1,000 but you'll get back a year's rent on your first matter or two. Lexis has a small firm monthly packages, and there are several ultra-cheap competitors to Lexis and Westlaw (try Versuslaw which is a measly $25 for unlimited access per month, less than few Lattes).
3) Welcome to the real world. Everyone from the drug dealer on the corner, to your cab drivers, to your corner convenience store, to your Biglaw partners, has to LEARN to run their businesses. No one (I repeat NO ONE) likes this or takes naturally to it. We ALL have to learn how to run our lives and businesses. Deal with it. "All on our own" (isn't that a song?). For all your life I suspect, you have been insulated and babied - its not your fault, but its why the Great Ol' USA is falling. 12 years of prep school, 4 years of college, 3 years of law school. Not a single day of work for many folks unless you grow up poor (and if you did grow up poor, you probably didn't make it into expensive $$$ law school and you certainly wouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of billing clients every month). So suck it up an learn. You will have to eventually even if you are in Biglaw, trust me.
4) John has it right, and so do you. Of course you are completely unprepared for any real world, non-Biglaw work. But you can learn, you have the tools. And clearly you have the writing and presentation skills to excel. Divorce case comes in? You know what to do. Go find a book on handling divorce cases, read your state's divorce statutes, and check local rules in the court. If you do all that , you will be a better lawyer than 75% of the solo practitioners out there.
5) You seem to be pretty good at spreading the word, but consider this: how many matters does your old Biglaw firm turn down every day because its too small, not "Biglaw enough", or because of conflicts or too high billing rates? Probably a LOT of matters. I assume you made **some** friends that are still in Biglaw. Ask them to refer cases to you. Better than any late night TV ad, and soon you will need to hire some out of work associates to handle all the work. Most if not all former Biglaw solo practitioners are doing very well feeding at the teat of their alma mater.
62 : Roxana :: Any sensible political affiliation : Dems
Just start stripping.... your only overhead would be clear heels
I think this column was Roxana's version of "trolling."
She WANTED us to get all pissed off at her. And we fell for it.
More pageviews for Breadlines!
You don't need an office. Work out of your apartment and get an Amex Platinum which gives you access to Regus offices for when you need to meet with clients. Problem #2 is solved. Waaahhh, I can't start a practice. How do other small businesses start? They have overhead too, and they need clients as well. Put your thinking cap on and stop whining.
-Paralegal
ATL should run #87's question as a column. Imagine the response rate!
[aykroyd] Roxana, you ignorant slut. [/aykroyd]
What a WHINER you are. We DO NOT feel sorry for you. Your public rationalizations expose you for the spineless, pampered symbol of our younger "self-esteem"-raised generation that you are, which is shameful to millions of hard-working Americans.
Here's a dose of reality: You are NOT a "good lawyer" and you were NOT worth but a small fraction of what Biglaw was paying you in excessive compensation. As someone else noted, you are not a problem solver and therefore NOT a good lawyer by any stretch.
Here are some more realistic perspectives on "hanging a shingle" (which I have done within the past year so I know what I am talking about):
Rent is unnecessary to start up. Work from home. All you need is a decent-sized desk, a file cabinet, a computer, and a multifunction printer (scanner/copier/fax/printer). Add some case management software (for solos/small firms) if you want to be on top of things, and you're good to go.
Advertising? Craigslist is free. You can also get your own web domain with webpage hosting and email accounts for, oh, $10 per month or so. Business cards? Oh, $20 or so will buy you a huge pile of them. Get a blackberry as your phone (if you don't have one) and for $20/month, you can get unlimited data service plus have all your emails show up on it just like they used to. Open Office is free and does pretty much everything you needed from MS Office.
Meeting space and research? Lots of cheap options. Besides meeting potential clients in coffee shops, etc. (which isn't so bad), you can make house calls. Many smaller clients would be impressed. Or, join the local bar. I know that the NYC Bar offers free use of conference rooms in their midtown building to members, as well as *free* legal research in their on-site library. Check out Lois Law for cheaper legal research too. I don't know how much 'research' you plan to do, but there are cheap ways to do it.
Malpractice insurance? Get it. It's not too expensive, but necessary.
I started up a practice with all of the above (OK, I don't advertise on Craigslist!) for well under $10k, and that's with new computer and printer. Did I ever run a business before or even think about it? No. Did I decide I needed to do something, and that would take some extra effort and expanding my boundaries into new areas and functions? Yes.
I feel MUCH better having taken steps to move forward with my career, and business is picking up. Potential clients are *everywhere*. I even get some referrals from friends still in Biglaw who are priced out of some clients that approach them.
I feel sorry for you, partly because of your unwillingness to grow as a person, to learn and do new things that are all part of truly practicing law. Partly because it is clear that you still hope to be taken back into the protective folds of Biglaw where you can do fungible, lemming-like "work" and once again believe that you are a real "lawyer." (This won't happen, btw. There are too many better-qualified attorneys and cheaper recent and upcoming grads eager to take up the very few openings that may appear over the coming years.)
But most of all, I feel sorry for you because you fail to see how truly pathetic your public rationalizations and pity-party excuses are to everyone who reads them. The legal industry is not going to scoop you up, apologize for your discomfort, and gush at your "skills" while it pays you exorbitant amounts of money for routine dronework.
If you want to be a lawyer, then stop whining and go out and BE a lawyer! (Regardless of what you do or don't do, please stop whining anyway.)
There are some good pieces of advice in the comments. Laid-off lawyers, are you listening?
I am thinking I might want to start a solo practice of my own now!
To 97: AMEN!
The only thing I would add is that perhaps the BEST place for an eager lawyer to meet with his or her client is at the client's office (or home, if an individual), where you make the visit totally free to the client.
It's amazing how many new matters come up when you're at a client's site, because either the usual client contact host thinks of them while you're there, or, more often, other client employees meet the lawyer for the first time and mention something that the usual client contact might not even know about ... and BINGO! your free trip to your client's office ends up paying next month's rent (or more).
88 - I actually thought that was very funny. Laughed out loud at it.
98, good for you ... perhaps there is hope for some of the many readers/commenters who mostly seem to be expecting the biglaw teet or the government teet never to run out of milk
It is time to get creative. It is fairly clear that the type of jobs you are looking for are not going to happen. Solo practice is not for everyone and while tons of law firms/businesses start everyday, most don't survive.
The economy sucks for clients too. They don't want to pay much. Also, many of those freinds looking for legal advice and services are looking for free services. It may be nice to give them out to get business but she needs to pay the rent and eat as well. A lawyer is a walking business as someone said earlier. But they aren't always a successful bsiness.
At the rate she is probably burning money, starting up a solo practice in NYC is not happening. It is much easier in suburbs/small towns where costs in general are lower. Given her opposition to leaving, that is a non-starter.
Where does this leave you? Screwed basically. Biglaw isn't coming for you or anyone unless they have a big book of business right now. The start date deferrals are merely the next best option for Biglaw dealing with new associates because teminating their jobs (what they would like to do) is simply too politcally damaging even in this environment. If solo shop is not for you either then it is might be time to consider another field.
Laugh at the Binders all you want, but, they're making $$$$ MONEY $$$$ while all you do is sit on your unemployed ass.
It's truly remarkable, that you're still acting like a snobby biglaw associate, looking down on those you consider beneath you because they're not at as fancy as a firm or one that's as high up on the Vault rankings, guess what, the charade is over.
You're unemployed, you're lazy and you've pretty much got to be truly stupid to hold onto that sense of entitlement of yours to to think you're so much better/smarter/more prestigious than Binder, etc. by sitting on your unemployed ass and thinking how great you are and how "lowly" they must be to be chasing down work and making a buck.
loser, Loser, LOSER
BinderFAN!
Laugh at the Binders all you want, but, they're making $$$$ MONEY $$$$ while all you do is sit on your unemployed ass.
It's truly remarkable, that you're still acting like a snobby biglaw associate, looking down on those you consider beneath you because they're not at as fancy as a firm or one that's as high up on the Vault rankings, guess what, the charade is over.
You're unemployed, you're lazy and you've pretty much got to be truly stupid to hold onto that sense of entitlement of yours to to think you're so much better/smarter/more prestigious than Binder, etc. by sitting on your unemployed ass and thinking how great you are and how "lowly" they must be to be chasing down work and making a buck.
loser, Loser, LOSER
BinderFAN!
New York State Bar Association has a CLE seminar on starting your own practice. It's free. Might want to check it out.
Now, about getting those darn, pesky clients. Wonder of the CLE will provide those too?
Huh? These reasons make no sense. Yes, you work out of your apt., home, or your parent's home or whatever. You meet the client at HIS or HER office. The client is not going to care if you say you are "between offices right now". Also, this is probably temporary so just get some malpractice insurance and then get out and get some cases. You want to network to do contract work for folks at established firms who aren't laid off yet - there's going to be a need for overflow work.
But also, you learn how to do a real estate closing, will and go to municipal court to rep a DWI and such. Make calls and a friendly small town attorney (you probably have one in your family...or in a friend's family) will walk you through it. These people will also offer you the use of their own office. Solo practitioners are a friendly bunch. And you can throw them some business when you get remployed at a big firm eventually. Or you may decide you like being a no frills wills, real estate and minor crim. lawyer.
yawn. lat, we need a new guest writer.
97 - YEAH!!!! That's the type of person we should be talking about, blogging about, etc. Someone doing something with their life.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
"I don't have clients" and "I've only done document review" are defeatist reasons for not going solo. Not everyone who leaves BigLaw to start their own firm is David Boies. Every year there are numerous graduates of lower level law schools who -- out of necessity -- start their own firms straight out of school. They often end up in practice areas that many of us would shun -- and THAT is a valid reason not to go solo. But don't say that you CAN'T go solo. That's self-pitying bullsh*t.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
All you're doing is compiling reasons why NOT to do things: why NOT to apply to certain jobs, why NOT to hang a shingle, why NOT to move to another city, etc. Getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to you - and judging by your attitude, to your former firm - because hopefully it was smack you out of your whiny victim rationale.
Lots of lawyers start their own firm (hang out their own shingle) every year and are very successful. It can be done. It might not involve (at first, or maybe even later) the work you dreamed about doing at BigLaw, thought it could be if you got along with clients at your old firm. The truth is it can happen, but you choose not to.
50 isnt a socialist, he is just taking money from greedy big law people who are bad at business. in other words: suckers.
Advice on how to start your own practice:
-Start doing criminal and immigration pro bono under the supervision of other attorneys
-Once you are comfortable with either/both, and have good professional relationships with mentors (a month or two) start taking simple cases for pay. Misdemeanors and easier immigration petitions
-If you decided you want to open an immigration practice, find a young person and hire them as a translator. Or have family members/school friends of the adult's children, etc. translate for you.
With regard to your specific complaints
1) Office space can be rented by the hour, as others have mentioned. Look into it.
2) You won't be billing enough hours to use schmancy billing software, free/cheap CLE can be come by, and Lexis and Westlaw don't charge small firms their hourly rates--large firms often bitch about how cheaply small firms can obtain their software. Work out a deal with them. Also, look for public law libraries with free Westlaw access. Some do exist. Also, outside of biglaw, almost no one has errors and omissions insurance.
3) Running a small practice is not as hard as you think, because you will have the dead time to do it. Trust me. I have friend who are sole practitioners.
4) That is why you start with small cases, and talk to other lawyers. Lawyers love talking about the law. Buddy up to some sole practitioners, and small- and mid-firm lawyers, and they will help you do the new stuff. So will practice guides, which can also be found at free, public law libraries.
5) Start out with referral services, getting yourself on a court-appointed lawyer list, and networking. All you need is a website.
I'm not saying you'll rake it in. I am saying you can practice law.
For heaven's sake, even if it is pro bono, DO SOMETHING with your degree. Please.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
Roxana, hang in there. I don't hate you!
"There are the obvious costs to consider -- you make phone calls, a messenger takes your motion to court for filing, a secretary may answer your phone."
OMFG, of all the stupid things I've read on ATL (comments included) I think this must be the winner. Don't forget that you also need a pet sitter for the cats, and a personal assistant to wipe your a$$.
Roxy,
Maybe you just don't really want to be a lawyer. There's nothing wrong with that. Believe me I've struggled with that thought daily. I'm fortunate enough to still have my Biglaw job, but I've also considered strongly hanging out my own shingle. I have all the same concerns you do. But, at the end of the day, the thing that is keeping me from doing it all boils down to fear. Whether I do it or not all comes down to whether I get a set and take the plunge. I think that is all it will take.
You can make excuses all day long, but that's all they really are. If you really want to do it, you just will. I've worked on a lot of transactions, some with small firms on the other side of the table. I can tell you there are a LOT of hacks out there. These hacks are getting paid good money to, well, hack. I take comfort in knowing this fact and it gives me some confidence that I could do 100X better work with about 10% of the effort.
But here I sit.
I used to read these posts earlier but they have devolved into spineless whining. Pisses me off. D
I used to read these posts earlier but they have devolved into spineless whining. QUIT COMPLAINING AND START DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. A lot of good lawyers have been let you this past year but I suspect that you were one of the idiots that needed to be canned. I have no sympathy.
why bother putting in the effort to find a job when you can continue boring us with your woe-is-me posts?
I went into solo practice and now consider suicide every. single. day. The bottom feeders I now deal with are 10x worse than my former, asshole, Biglaw colleagues. If I didn't have kids I would have made my "final exit" a year ago.
123 is a good example of why Roxana needs to leave the law entirely. She'd have moments such as he/she is having now.
123 - call your bar assn's helpline before the sun goes down today.
Actually, all you have to do is rent a room in an office space or share an office, set up a phone line, get some insurance, and have a computer. Oh, and find clients.
Don't need a big office or a secretary.
Don't need a big copier or printer- get an all-in-one.
Don't need fancy letterhead.
Don't need a computer network or website.
Don't need lexis or westlaw- use your library.
123, that is a good counterpoint to all the cheerleaders here who say "Solo practice is great!"
Yes you should never go for solo practice, because of the (presumably exorbitant) "cost to equip an office with hot and cold running coffee."
39, 45, 55. 59, 65, etc. Do your research. You seem to think that Obama has opened the floodgates to bailouts and free money to the masses. Not true. The free money is only for those huge banks, auto companies, mortgage companies and insurance conglomerates who wrought the economy’s current havoc.
Many who own or would like to start a business (lawyers and other businesses) are not in a financial position to do so. These business owners are not looking for a handout but looking for the financing that was readily available in the past to fiscally responsible individuals or groups looking to start/expand/etc. a small business. One option for this group is the government, specifically the Small Business Administration (SBA). SBA loan programs are available to start-up businesses as well as those that are already established. All applicants must meet certain SBA eligibility and credit requirements. In general, you must be organized for profit, meet SBA specific size standards, and be unable to obtain funding on reasonable terms through traditional lending channels.
The SBA does not give away money but provides guarantees on loans made by banks to any small businesses including farms, contractors, hair dressers, attorneys, etc. These are neither government handouts nor direct loans from the government, but merely loan guarantees. As such, the market for getting these funds is purely determined by the banks and banks are NOT lending money to anyone these days. In response to this issue, the Obama stimulus package implemented a number of changes to encourage investment in small businesses including:
1- the elimination of certain SBA loan fees,
2-the commitment of $15 billion of government money to unlock the secondary loan market,
3-the raising of the guaranty level up to as much as 90% of the loan value,
4-granting of a carryback provision for losses (allowing “carryback” of losses from this year for up to the previous five years)
5-Expansion of the microloan program
These measured steps are supposed to provide lenders with the security they need to start lending again to the millions of small business owners desperately in need of capital. Unfortunately, the program still relies on banks to step up to the plate and make loans something which banks are not currently doing even to qualified borrowers.
In conclusion, do your research and know your facts before you comment.
I can't believe in a discussion of starting your own practice no one mentioned Foonberg.
He literally wrote the book on starting your own practice. I can't quote him exactly but he says that he wrote his book about starting a practice for the 95% that didn't graduate in the top 5% of their class.
Read his book EVEN IF you don't want to start a practice. His tips and approach to the law are helpful for any lawyer. He also wants to insipre attorneys to be the best attorneys they can be. Check him out.
http://www.foonberglaw.com/prod/htsab.html
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
126 -- you're as stupid as Roxanna is pathetic. The point people are making isn't that solo practice is "great" -- the point is that the barriers to starting a solo practice aren't nearly as significant as Roxanna seems to think.
For all of the associates who have commented here that they would hang a shingle, but they need clients first . . .
Which clients did you work with at your big firm? Who do you know there? In this economy, do you think those clients are happy paying big firm rates?
Maybe you're not qualified yet to be lead counsel on the client's big patent infringement case. But are there aspects of the case that you could perform cheaper that your former firm? Like document review. What about some of the other work that the clients have? Not all of it will be multi-million dollar, high stakes litigation. Why aren't you qualified to handle that work? Could it really hurt to call and ASK? You'll never get any work from anyone without asking for it.
I don't know . . . when I worked at a big firm, the associates did most of the work anyway, and the partners took all the credit for it. It was just that the clients don't KNOW that. But there's nothing wrong with educating them, and letting them know that you can perform the same work for them now that you always have, but instead of charging them $450.00 an hour (and staffing every matter with 4-5 lawyers, or 10-15 depending on the case), you can now charge them the "reasonable" price of $325 an hour and staff their matter more leanly.
Anyone who is in this business (and yes, it's a business, not a profession), and isn't always thinking about new business development, is doing themselves a great disservice.
Big Law associates almost all went to great law schools, and achieved at a very high level. If you don't know the answer to something, figure it out. If you go out on your own, you can spend a day or two getting up to speed in an area of law where you have little knowledge, and you don't have to worry about not being able to bill that time.
My advice would be, become entreprenurial yesterday. Unless, of course, you want to make a fraction of what lawyers with clients make, and work for them your whole life, which means putting up with constant crap because you have no other choice.
This is exactly the path I look 7-8 months ago, and I couldn't be happier. (Oh, and thus far, I'm making about 175% of what I used to make, while running all my own matters and billing about 1/2 as many hours as I used to bill). You will be stunned at how receptive former clients are. You have been led to believe that the client only wants to work with "Partner X," and that you are an insignificant cog in the wheel. Not true.
For all of the associates who have commented here that they would hang a shingle, but they need clients first . . .
Which clients did you work with at your big firm? Who do you know there? In this economy, do you think those clients are happy paying big firm rates?
Maybe you're not qualified yet to be lead counsel on the client's big patent infringement case. But are there aspects of the case that you could perform cheaper that your former firm? Like document review. What about some of the other work that the clients have? Not all of it will be multi-million dollar, high stakes litigation. Why aren't you qualified to handle that work? Could it really hurt to call and ASK? You'll never get any work from anyone without asking for it.
I don't know . . . when I worked at a big firm, the associates did most of the work anyway, and the partners took all the credit for it. It was just that the clients don't KNOW that. But there's nothing wrong with educating them, and letting them know that you can perform the same work for them now that you always have, but instead of charging them $450.00 an hour (and staffing every matter with 4-5 lawyers, or 10-15 depending on the case), you can now charge them the "reasonable" price of $325 an hour and staff their matter more leanly.
Anyone who is in this business (and yes, it's a business, not a profession), and isn't always thinking about new business development, is doing themselves a great disservice.
Big Law associates almost all went to great law schools, and achieved at a very high level. If you don't know the answer to something, figure it out. If you go out on your own, you can spend a day or two getting up to speed in an area of law where you have little knowledge, and you don't have to worry about not being able to bill that time.
My advice would be, become entreprenurial yesterday. Unless, of course, you want to make a fraction of what lawyers with clients make, and work for them your whole life, which means putting up with constant crap because you have no other choice.
This is exactly the path I look 7-8 months ago, and I couldn't be happier. (Oh, and thus far, I'm making about 175% of what I used to make, while running all my own matters and billing about 1/2 as many hours as I used to bill). You will be stunned at how receptive former clients are. You have been led to believe that the client only wants to work with "Partner X," and that you are an insignificant cog in the wheel. Not true.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
i hate to say this to anyone facing unemployment because the situation sucks, but this silver spoon mentality in the legal profession has got to stop. I'm sorry that some of you have lost your $160k + jobs that the other 95% of attorneys out there would love to have to pay off student loans. but you know something, if you think that the only job you should have next is another 6 figure biglaw job, then you are truly a waste of a lawyer and 7 years of federally backed loans. If you have a computer, printer, fax and a telephone, you can run a practice out of your home, you can rent a virtual office if you need to meet clients or do depositions, you can deduct the cost of your CLE, bar dues, office supplies, including the ream of printer paper that Rox bitches about, etc. Many local bar associations offer members access to online legal research programs such as Fastcase and cheap malpractice insurance. if you need the lexus shepards that much, you can always save costs and go to your nearby law library and use the books...yes they still make those. you can do online advertising and look for areas where people are going to need help despite the recession. Biglaw doesnt practice in everything. yeah it may suck that you may not really make money at the start and yes your practice might fail..you can always try and do a temp legal stint as a quick cash grab while you get yourself set up. Wouldnt you rather try and do something law related that you could talk about in a future interview or would you rather sit on your butt all day and bemoan the loss of having your firm pay you lots of money...grow a sac and go read some practitioners manuals or something. word of advice, you and your legal pedegree are not as special as you have been led to believe. go at least try to pick up some clients and do some legal work and get paid for it.
94 is right. This is probably going to be Roxana's most-commented column ever.
She wanted to get a rise out of readers. And she did!
Those who think she should open a solo practice are:
1. Truly clueless as to the number of solo practices and businesses that fail.
2. Kidding themselves if they think that law school (no matter what classes they took) prepares an attorney to start a practice right out of the gate and the fees will pay a good wage. Not only do graduating students lack the skills, but who would hire a new lawyer - even one with a few years experience - for $200/hour. Cases with small law firms are typically done on either a fixed fee basis or on a contingency basis or some sort of hybrid of the two. Resultingly, a new attorney is forced to absorb the costs of the learning curve.
3-Forcing your values on her. The solo practice arena represents limited practice opportunities. perhaps she is not interested in chasing ambulances, drunk driving cases, doing wills for $300- a piece, etc. Can't she choose herself?
Rox, hang in there and pay them no heed.
This is obviously a flame post. Lat and whoever writes this knew this would generate lots of comments. No one is as annoying as the poster.
138,
1. the success rate is not the point of this article or the comments.
2. a low wage is better than no wage.
3. if she doesn't want to do it because she's risk-averse and only wants to do the exciting world of document review, she can just say so, without making excuses about the costs of coffeemakers, lexis/westlaw, messengers, and time management software.
While I understand your hesitation at opening your own firm, your reasons are not good enough, to put it mildly.
First of all, your address will give tell every client you do get that you're working from home. So meeting them in your home...not a big surprise! You're not going to attract huge clients, but you are going to attract everyday people. And they honestly won't care. So suck it up, that's no reason not to "hang the shingle".
Secondly, you're a lawyer!! All you need to tell these potential clients is that you worked for X firm for Y number of years. People outside of law really don't know what newly minted lawyers do in biglaw. So that's no worry at all.
Thirdly, I get the malpractice insurance costs, but someone commented that those aren't so expensive (not sure if it's true, but even if it's not, if that's the extent of your investment, it's well worth it to make a few extra bucks).
Fourthly, you don't need to be Binder&Binder and get up on TV to do an ad - small practitioners don't do those things! There are lots of other ways to advertise (see the comments above that suggest them).
Fifthly, buy the fax machine, pay for the extra line, and use your scanner and printer for making xerox copies. You can even use your fax machine. And if you need a flat bed to make a copy, run to staples. It's not THAT big a deal.
Lastly, you went to law school. You were accepted into a biglaw firm for a reason. Trust yourself a bit. You're capable of doing research. You CAN learn new law. It hasn't been that long. And even regarding filing and stuff, go down to the courthouse, the clerks there know lots more than you do. And they are nice normal, non-vindictive people (ie, not like us lawyers) and they will help you through the process. It's really easy. And to be honest, something every lawyer should know how to do. You CAN do this. Have a little faith.
And network! Go out, print some business cards and hand them out to people you meet. Volunteer at places. Mention you're a lawyer. There are lots of ways to meet clients. But you're not meeting them sitting at home. And if hanging a shingle is not something you're ever going to do, get a regular old job. There are former lawyers out there who are janitors now because they don't have the luxury of sitting on their hands waiting for the economy to get better. They've got kids and families to support. You're lucky. Take a few risks. And if you can't, suck it up and swallow your lawyerly pride, and walk around the corner and get a good old fashioned job. And in the meantime, hang that single. You've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
And hey, look for some other unemployed lawyers - start a firm!
94 here. 139 expressed it better than I did: this is a flame post.
And a very effective one, I might add. Congrats, Roxana!
106 here. In light of 123's post (with which I empathize) I didn't mean to imply that solo work doing wills, the occasional closing and representing annoying drunks in court for DWI's was rewarding. I used to do all this when partners at my old Small Law gave me their pro bono crap. The late nights at municipal court crammed in with no a/c; men in cheap suits and bad cologne everywhere, 65+ dry drunks grabbing you to wax poetic about some bullshit court victory. Oh and did I mention the client. Who are either stupid and/or guilty, almost always annoying and will hound you forever asking you (for free) whether some such thing is "legal" or not.
My only point is that, in desperation, you can eek by for a few months doing this type of crap work. Nobody will ask your credentials. As it is, even if you're a corporate M&A lawyer everyone already assumes (because you're a lawyer!) that you know all about this small fries crap.
I didn't dislike you, until this post. "You dont need a secretary, or billing software (which can be downloaded for free) to start..." You sound entitled......
84 is right - this is somewhat tough but hundreds of people do it every day. I have not yet but may at some point, and I know many who have. And many of them, after really scrapping for a while, are really successful at it. And some of them have failed - it's not for those without the entreprenurial spirit at some level, but that was just about required of all lawyers ever until the rise of the big firm 20 or 30 years ago.
The key is this - being good at being a lawyer is hard. It's hard to be a lawyer at a large law firm and it's hard to do so as a solo practice. It's just a different kind of hard. If you decide to do this, you have to be a bit risk-loving, resourceful and willing to take your knocks. I think that all lawyers should be like that, and I think that many of them are. I try to be like that, but it's also easy to just work at a big firm and avoid all the details.
In my opinion, Roxanne has it pretty well. She has the benefit of years of experience. She is a good writer. She is either somewhat charming in person or pulls it off well enough in written form that she probably seems charming in person. Hopefully, she has a few dollars saved. She could be a solo if she really put her mind to it. This is her first column that I haven't been extremely impressed with - a list of excuses is just excuses. There's nothing wrong with admitting that being a solo is not for you, but there's no reason to pretend that it can't be done. If you are a halfway decent lawyer you can grind out a decent living as a solo in any major city.
I have read almost your posts, R, and until now have refrained from posting. Until now.
You are an idiot.
The *ONLY* reason not to go out on your own is that you cannot develop clients. That's it. All the other roadblocks you raise are absurdly immature reasons. Office space? Affiliate yourself with a small NY firm. Instant office, computer, and receptionist. Web presence? You have any idea how cheap it is to have someone design and host a web site for you? Crap, all you really need to start off is an email address—get the web site afterwards. Tons of local associations that give networking, etc. Get involved, stop popping bon-bons and lamenting your unfortunate situation with your cats.
You obviously haven't looked into any of this, else you wouldn't be whining about getting a web site. This is pathetic-- if you actually had any prospects to work with a firm, I'd say maybe you have a point, but to not even consider going solo because of the hassle involved in getting a web presence?
Star acting like you have a pair-- even if you don't. It's not fashionable to be out of work, and you're not one of those chicks on "sex and the city." you're an out of work lawyer. You're not entitled to work, you have to fight for it.
I hate to put it like this, but Man the F@ck up.
Basically what you are telling us, Roxanne, is that you want another biglaw job where you don't have to worry about anything other than a steady paycheck in the $160k to $190k range. In that job you want to do work that does not require you to know more than researching caselaw and writing documents that will be reviewed by others for clients that you will never meet. In addition, you don't want to move beyond your established comfort zone into any area that might involve leaning a the basic legal skills necessary to take the lead in representing a client, such as going to court. Finally, you don't realy want to work on getting clients yourself or building a book of business because that is something that other people do for you.
If you are still wondering why you got laid off, please re-read this post. If after that, you still don't get it, I highly recommend you find another line of work.
1 - Nailed it squarely on the head. Thread over.
I was laid off in February. My only experience was in private equity. I've since got a virtual space with a swanky-sounding address ($100/month), a Westlaw account ($200/month), a domain name ($79), a 4-in-1 printer ($500), professional software ($500) and some stationary ($200).
Circling back with my college buddies (and doing no advertisiing whatsoever), I've gotten two decent-sized construction litigation cases, a condo offering plan, a physician's employment agreement negotiation and several FTC regulatory questions.
None of this has made me rich, but I will probably clear about $80k this year (one case is on the verge of settling). I have zero experience in the matter I'm handling. I never argued a motion until last week, or even saw one. I also got on the rolls for some pro bono and public defense work, just to get more lit experience.
The point is that to hang your shingle, you need two things: (a) a little bit of savings - $10-15k; and (b) a little bit of balls - you don't need a lot, trust me.
This author, whom I actually used to like, needs to get her shit together and suck it up.
Couldn't be bothered to read all the blather about how hard it is to start a practice. Think Marc Dreier sat around whining? (OK could be a better example).
We recently interviewed a former BigLawyer. Thought they might have picked up some (any?) useful skills in five years. Instead, there was no client contacts, no drafting the briefs, no client counseling, no development of case management skills. Five years of cite checking and document hand holding. Of course you can't start your own practice. You are useless.
If you have been at a firm for more than a year, and NO clients know your name, you can't make a pitch for work, and you have no clue how to start a brief from scratch, you are being used. Prostituted for $160k. And whores take their cash and slink off. You losers just hang around like crack whores hoping for another hit.
Free advice: No one is responsible for your career but you. If you think no skill development in a five year period is OK, then clearly you are going NOWHERE. Count the incoming class; count the new partners. What is it 1:20? Economy or not, 19 are going to be used and disposed. And the other one's dad is a federal judge.
You all need to stop being such DBs and take charge of your life.
Legal research problem solved:
http://www.jenkinslaw.org/
Membership is $150 per year and includes unlimited FastCase from home, plus unlimited Westlaw and Lexis at their library in Philadelphia. You can also get conference room space at the library.
151, good job. Now please find her an inexpensive way to make both hot AND cold running coffee in an office.
If you go into it with any sort of plan, you don't have to take everything that comes in the door. Solo practice doesn't have to be the extreme example mentioned by the guy whose experience came from pro bono work, nor does it have to be drafting wills for $300.00, if that's not what you want to do. There are plenty of relatively normal people out there who, for whatever reason, find themselves embroiled in a dispute or situation requiring a lawyer and are willing to pay for it or who have solid contingency cases. Also, don't forget about potential small business clients--they have many of the same issues as big business, just on a smaller scale. If you have a relatively average circle of contacts in and outside of the profession for referrals and you do good work for the people who come to you, you'll end up getting the clients you need. You just have to work at it, have a high tolerance for financial uncertainty for the first couple of years or so and be willing to do some nuts and bolts things for yourself at first for which you have probably relied on others.
Roxana, I like your stuff, but all of these excuses for not going out on your own are weak, indeed pathetic. It's tough to start your own firm, but lawyers have been doing it for hundreds of years.
And the idea that a commercial litigator will need to do many real estate closings is just silly.
Hmmm... okay. Time for reality.
1) If Roxanna wants to work in government service, or biglaw, hanging out a shingle is a bad idea. She'll incur a lot of debt, be unavailable for jobs, etc. So holding out for the job she wants isn't necessarily a bad idea. Going solo is a major and risky investment. If she's not committed to the idea for the next 5 years at least, then this is a bad avenue. I am somewhat shocked to see that no one has discussed this aspect of the decision.
2) Many of the commentators are correct. There are ways to defray costs. Drink instant coffee, find a "lawyer park," answer your own phone calls (a secretary? when you're worried about having ANY clients? seriously?), go down to the courthouse and file yourself. None of this is rocket science. Nor will your research costs be as great as you imagine because the law you will be doing will NOT require a lot of research.
3) The legal skills needed to practice solo are not as difficult as you think. You can specialize in a particular area at first, and gradually expand. I personally know solo attorneys who have begun in one area of the law--personal injury--and gradually expanded to others--social security disability, criminal, etc. You should budget an appropriate amount of time for learning.
4) Getting clients. Advertising and worth of mouth. You are now a business. Think like one.
That said, it's a major investment and a risky one. If you're committed to taking the risk, then great. You will find ways forward. Best of luck. But if what you really want is the government job or biglaw job, and you believe you have the qualifications to land one at some point in the relatively near future (6 months to 1.5 years), then do temp work or other forms of work until that job becomes available.
The only part of this post that has any validity is Roxanna's admission that she's temperamentally unsuited to working for herself. And, if she has no desire to learn the management and other business skills it takes to run a solo practice, that's fine: at least she knows herself.
Hey, not everybody can be a shepherd: some people are just cut out to be sheep.
As a lot of the previous posters have pointed out, the rest of Roxanna's post is simply inaccurate. For accurate information about the costs of starting and running a solo practice, take a look at the following sites:
http://MyShingle.com (by Carolyn Elefant, author of Solo By Choice)
http://stayviolation.typepad.com/chucknewton/ (Chuck Newton's blog about "Third Wave" law practice
http://solosez.net (where you can join a free listserv of over 3,800 solo practitioners and small firm lawyers)
Even the Posse List, which concentrates on staffing BigLaw doc reviews and other projects, has gotten into the game with a new site called Running the Ranch Yourself at http://www.theposseranch.com/.
Hey 25 ; don't talk to her that way, that's not cool.
Yes, she's just complaining but aren't we all in our on ways.
Anyway, I was laid off at firm at 4ts, time to move on and out - most of us will do that anyway. This really sucks for most of us because we'll never see a market like that again.
What a worthless degree. Even for veterans like me; when you're out ; there's nothing to do but practice law and you can't do that on your own.
So we're all in the same boat.
Agree with u ; find something else to do with your life; I'm going be on MSNBC;
I'd love to draft wills for $300. But in my locality, people probably only pay $100 for a will. So, I think I'll offer wills for free and charge for trusts? Comments?
If you are going to put up a shingle this is a better blog:
http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=242&article_id=37346197&cat_id=1184
Seems her idea of practicing law as a solo practitioner is far too influenced by her experience in BIGLAW or she is just plain feeling overwhelmed and realizing how few real lawyer skills BIGLAW has given her. Ever heard of gettng started by doing court appointed work on small-time criminal cases, doing basic divorce work, wills, etc. None of that requires an office. You learn by doing, and you can do most of your research in a public law library if really needed. If you feel you need some support, how about hooking up with a solo practicioner who needs some help. You keep what you kill and run your own cases, but offer some free labor in exchange for using his office, secretary, etc. Little risk, and you might actually learn how to do more than push paper.
I agree with 149.
any idea how much malpractice insurance runs?
I am very disappointed to see this article. You can start your own firm. You may not want to do it and it may not be fun, but you can do it. Even if you have to handle landlord tenant cases, do debt collection work or do uncontested divorces, you can do it. There is no magic to the law. If you don't know how to do it, somoene has written a book on it for pete's sake! Do some research or ask another lawyer!! As for the costs, work from home, get a retainer up front and then get to work. Hustle for clients. Use your womanly wiles. Network. Tell friends. Call the clients you used to work for at your firm. They likely have small cases you can do. Or call your old partners you are on good terms with and ask them for referrals. They aren't handling $100,000 disputes or doing divorces, but you can. Hell you've got free advertising through this blog. Use that to get cases. Just get to work woman!
This article makes me laugh.
I hung a shingle about six months after law school. At first, I was writing wills at $200 a pop on referrals from a few local nursing homes, doing court-appointed criminal work for $20/hr. and working for another lawyer part-time from my own office at $30/hr. The cases weren't interesting, and I would routinely put in 12+ hour days. However, over time, you get more and more referrals, and now I have a very secure job that earns a very nice salary.
The person who wrote this article is way off about a few things. First, there are many places to get case information other than westlaw and lexis. In fact, almost no solo I know uses those tools but rather uses findlaw, fastcase, or if you know its a federal case, Pacer (opinions are free). I assure you, the authority isn't less persuasive to the court because it says "Fastcase" at the top of the printout and not "Thompson-West". Fastcase is $69/month in my jurisdiction.
Similarly, you can get a part-time office (what I did at first) for $129 a month that is fine to meet with clients.
Don't be scared of opening your own shop. Its alot of fun, and its better that you are in charge of every aspect of your own cases than taking orders. The article sounds really whiney and silly. There is work out there - you just have to be hungry enough to find it. I guess the author isn't hungry enough yet.
162,
It depends on how long you have been in practice and what you are proposing to do but, in any case, not as much as you would think.
I also forgot to mention entity formation costs, which are another $400 or so, in New York.
- 149
my malpractice (Solo) runs $516 per year ($43/month).
Come on guy... It is not that easy to find clients and achiveve to be profitable as a solo practicionner.
The main reasons was quoted, most people tend to ask for free legal services, as per my experience at least.
I am not saying it is impossible, it is just difficult to turn it around and make a decent amount of money. Sometime it may work out, but the persons I know that set up sucessfully their own practice started with one or two good clients.
Anyway, taht's just my impression, anyone has any idea of the average revenue of solo practitionner?
mal-practice $750/year in Manhattan, a little extra because about 30% of my practice is TM and copyright.
How to have ice and hot coffee: Make extra coffee in morning, place in fridge, by the afternoon it is the perfect thickness for ice coffee. I would recommend investing in a coffee grinder, french press, and decent coffee beans. Beats the crap out of battery-acid starbucks.
99.9% OF THE ABOVE COMMENTERS ARE COMPLETELY UNINFORMED... ON TOP OF BEING MORONS.
Please visit jdunderground or some other sites before passing judgment on issues outside the realm of your BigLaw ivory towers. Fact is, the solo practice world is saturated beyond belief. With thousands of established small practices possessing healthy marketing budgets and thick books of business, a new entrant into the market is s.o.l. Established small firms devote significant resources to expanding business, and only BigLaw douchebags would claim that "business is EVERYWHERE" since they believe they are God's gift and so much better than s#%!law practitioners.
Oh, and good luck meeting personal injury clients at a Starbucks when Glassman brings them into his expensive office and tells them of his million dollar verdicts.
Stop your pointless attacks on Roxana and realize that your ideal of America as a meritocracy is actually a lie.
Can't stand the whining anymore. Nothing is easy.
People on these forums tend to be assholes.But one thing is true. You want to find a job but only on your own terms. Sooner or later, you're going to have to make some concessions. And take some risks.
I for one really have zero interest in the kind of law that a solo practitioner would engage in. I would sooner move into another type of job than take big risks on a small business in something I don't like.
I suspect many BigLaw associates feel this way as well.
-Not Fired Yet.
I love all the law student and junior associate shitheads on this site who think if THEY were fired they could totally open their own sucessful law practice.
Good post by 164.
@141: Good comments, just one suggestion for the fifthly one: I'd recommend a 4-in-1 printer. The most robust one for an office setting would be a laser printer/fax/copier/scanner, which has a flatbed and doc feeder (for multipage copies). There are many models like this that run well under $400 or so. Definitely go with a laser printer--you don't need color, and laser quality/speed tends to be better for office use.
@40, 84, 97, 115, 141, 149, 151: Good stuff. Maybe we should start a forum here for info/resources on starting a solo/small practice?
ATL, I would be interested in hearing from someone who has successfully confronted adversity and picked up the pieces after being fired from Big Law. A chroncile of the steps they'd taken and where they are now would be interesting. An inside look into their new world. Can you try and find someone like that.
169: Nice try. I bet you're posting from your Biglaw cubicle, sneaking time off between bankers' boxes of docs yet to be reviewed. The fact is, many people can start successful solo/small practices, esp. now where many companies and individuals are looking for biglaw alternatives to reduce their legal expenses.
Every lawyer (pretty much!) has their own unique network of friends/acquaintances/potential clients, and some valuable skills plus (more importantly) the ability to think and learn new skills.
I started my own practice at the end of 2008 and expect to show a nice profit this year, maybe even hit 6 figures. Expenses are not that high, as I'm using several of the tips and cost-cutting measures that others have pointed out here.
Best of all, it's nice to be in CONTROL of one's work environment and to schedule one's calendar by working directly with clients. MUCH better than the random deadlines and night/weekend clerical projects that so many biglaw partners dump on associates. I can take time off and even VACATIONS without fear of having to cancel them at the last minute.
Working for a decent income, learning new things, and being in control of my life. No way would I go back to the biglaw morass, even if it were offered to me. Although I do appreciate the experience I gained there.
Now go back to your doc review, be sure to check off the right column in the database, and don't forget to have all your time entered for the week by 4 pm on Friday!!!!!! I do feel sorry for you.
roxana don't put out the (red) shingle
government position would be good for you since you don't really want to work hard and you have the choice.
For the 500th time, can we just accept that this whole "Roxanna thing" is faked and move on?
Oh, I was just sitting around jobless and talking to my editor Lat who...
Please.
Once again, this "installment" was full of glaring examples of why Roxanna is clearly either a professional blog writer (and thus not trying to get a law job) or is just a product of Lat's imagination.
Good writing requires two things: (1) high quality prose, and (2) a reason for the reader to care.
This blog has (sometimes) a fair bit of 1, but has lacked an ounce of 2 since about the 3rd installment.
Good post, 149. ATL, can you hire 149 to write a column? I would like to hear about his 'hanging a shingle' and successful transition from big law to small law. I too used to like Roxanna and her writing. But it's getting ridiculous.
Roxana, learn how to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy petitions, and advertise on craigslist and The Village Voice, perhaps the NY Post. You basically fill in a boilerplate petition document with the client's information, calendar everything, talk to their creditors once, and you show up at the trustee's office in court to represent several clients in one day. You have to charge less than $1000 per case to be competitive but there are plenty of people looking to file personal bankruptcy these days. And the good news is, you get paid before you go to court.
Matt Larrabee the former chairman of Heller Ehrman send his best wishes in your job hunting. He would like to help, but is busy on client/lying work.
Good luck everyone.
Matt Larrabee the former chairman of Heller Ehrman send his best wishes in your job hunting. He would like to help, but is busy on client/lying work.
Good luck everyone.
If she doesn't want to start her own firm because she prefers working in a firm, that's fine, it's not for everyone, but the reasons she gives are not convincing. I helped someone start his own firm while I was unemployed and you know what, it can be done. It's a lot of work and requires determination along with some guts. She needs to consider all options carefully. The BIGLAW jobs ain't there right now so all ideas deserve consideration. The last thing Ms. St. Thomas should do is sit on her rear and send resumes. She should get out there and do contract work to pay the bills. She should not wait til' the money runs out and she is out of options.
These posts have been pretty good, but lately they have changed from witty and fun to whiny and self loathing.
Keep posting, but see a shrink.
Great post. I can empathize, I'm working now but have faced the choice in the past of whether or not to hang out my own shingle, and in a similar reflective process had to come to the realization that I lack some of the entrepreneurial and marketing skills that I would need to do well as a sole practitioner.
Solo practice is a combination of the practice of law and of business, as you recognized but a number of commenters don't seem to realize.
Not to mention the costs (which you did mention!), I know at least one person who does have the skills to be a sole practitioner but worked (document review, actually, back when such jobs were easier to find and with overtime hours) to get overhead and living expenses to cover a year or so saved to ease start-up. He also had the right temperament.
If any commenters know of lenders offering substantial loans to lawyers to help them become sole practitioners, by all means, please do post about it...
I don't mind working hard (well, I'd prefer not to, but I can!), but recognizing I'm not good at marketing or office management or whatever is no more whining than noting that I don't speak Spanish - it's a skill I'm lacking (or at least deficient in).
Isn't the real answer that we're risk-averse overachievers? Isn't that why we went to law school in the first place?
Rox, you said:
"[a]s an associate, you have the opportunity to work on bigger, more complex cases than a smaller practitioner might be exposed to. On the other hand, this kind of work leaves you ill-prepared to do real estate closings, divorces, custody cases, and DWIs."
You have to be fucking joking right? YOU are still a lawyer aren't you, which presumably means that you are familiar with the notion of doing actual legal research related to a particular issue.
Here's an idea -- if someone comes to you with a legal problem related to a divorce, consult Lexis or Westlaw. And if you don't have access to either, pick up a treatise, or perhaps (GASP) an annotated code. You could also do such crazy things as go to bar committee meetings regarding residential real estate law or attend a CLE for relatively cheap.
As many commentators have already said -- get off the big law nipple, grow a pair (figuratively) and act like a lawyer as opposed to a whiner.
The prophetic words from "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, and It's All Small Stuff":
ARGUE FOR YOUR LIMITATIONS AND THEY'RE YOURS
Costs for solos are much lower than BigLaw. Look into sharing office space, secretarial services, office equipment, etc. Bar associations help out with CLE, malpractice insurance, benefits, etc. I know of a firm that offers CLE for about $2/hr.--did that during my time on the breadline five years ago. Network at CLEs. Join referral lists. I'm sure your friend Giovana alone could send a few potential clients your way. And what about your former BigLaw colleagues? They can also be great referral sources. Look into opening a neighborhood office--a friend of mine, after getting canned by two MidLaw firms within a year, hung out a shingle in a neighborhood. Everyone within a mile with legal problems now comes to his office.
Of course, many referrals won't pan out--but that happens in BigLaw too. And while it will take a few months to generate a modest cash flow, it's not as hard as it seems. And guess what--no kissing up to partners, no worrying about pleasing the boss.
What about writing appeals? It's not great money, but if there's anything you can do (I'm sure) it's reading a voluminous record, discerning an argument and writing a losing brief.
Best part, you don't ever have to meet the clients! (Usually)
There are groups, etc... where you get on the panel and they'll give you some work. Not as much as you were making, certainly, but something and you might even learn something.
(Sorry for the generalizations and no solid links but I live in a far sunnier and more Western state and am still employed [thus the reason I'm still at the office at 8:15pm my time] though making less than half than you did...still that's far more than you're making now...)
Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right.
I really don't get the pile-on. Did any of you nasty critics READ what she wrote, i.e., #3? I think it makes a lot of sense to honestly evaluate core competencies, and calling it "un-American" to decide that you're not suited for a particular kind of work -- which requires a significant investment of time, money, and energy -- is almost as dense as it is childish.
190, I'm interested in this idea of specializing in appeals. Are you referring to "panels" of criminal defense attorneys or something? I've never heard of groups who assign appeals to individual attorneys. Please elaborate.
176:
As an example, I know five people who were laid off in the October round of stealth lay offs at a Vault 50 firm. (I will not identify the firm.) Of these individuals, four of them have found jobs and one is still looking. They all took pay cuts, but none of them burned any bridges on the way out.
One associate took a couple of clients and lateraled as a junior partner at a small firm and is probably making close to the former salary. Another got a job in the same market, again at a smaller firm and for less money. Another had to move, but got a better job at a much better firm. The fourth got a job with a smaller firm, but with a much lower salary. This person was the most senior and had the largest fall in salary. The fifth and final person is in a tough spot. He/she bought a house not long before the lay off, has children and cannot easily relocate. The fifth is in a tough spot but is still looking. Luckily the spouse has a job.
I know all of this because I am good friends with two of the individuals and they all kept in touch during the process of trying to pick up the pieces.
If you have been laid off there is hope. You must be willing to move to a smaller firm and/or relocate if you want a chance in this market. The major caveat here is if you are a freshly minted associate, first or second year, then your chances of landing on your feet are greatly reduced.
I know of other examples of less senior associates and I really do feel sorry for them. The worst part of their situations is that they are now competing for paid public interest jobs with all of the deferred class of 2009, some of whom will take the positions for free and rely on their stipend from their future (hopefully) employers. It will be tough for non-profits to take slightly experienced attorneys and having to pay them when they have their choice of deferred 3L's for free.
I am pretty disgusted by all of this. I don't give a crap why Roxanna doesn't think she can hang a shingle. The reality is that many people can and do. And, as this is an option I am exploring, I am interested in hearnig the ways that these people make it work. I am *not* interested in reading a bunch of complaints and "this is why I *can't* do it."
And why the need to poke fun at people who have hung out a shingle and run advertisements on late night TV? I'm sure that clients respond to those ads and that these solos are making more money than Roxana is now... if she is even a real person. I agree with those who say this could be a fake post, meant to gather attention and flame anyone who decides to do something different than Biglaw.
If I am wrong, then please run posts by people who *have* put out shingles, whether they are "successful" yet or not. Can we please have a different perspective here to balance out this horribly defeatist and depressing one???
3:
No. It only had something to do with her getting hired in the first place.
Interesting, 194. Fortunately, I have not been laid off. I'm doing very well. But no one is immune, and I never would say it's impossible. I think a column from someone like the people you describe would be much more interesting (and certainly much more constructive) for ATL readers than this one.
-176
195, good luck to you. Going solo is tough, but it isn't impossible. You'll need to keep in mind that you're building a practice; not stepping out into a turn key operation. You'll need to be able to weather financial insecurity and uncertainty for, realistically, at least 2-3 years, assuming you're going out cold without any existing client base. As for advertising and marketing, forget about the late-night TV stuff. Your best source of business will be referrals. Make sure everyone you know, inside and outside of the profession, is aware of your new practice. I'd suggest sending announcements with contact information. It sounds corny and obvious, but treat every client and potential client with respect. If you do the basic things like return calls and e-mails promptly and act like a decent human being you'll be more likely to get referrals from clients. When dealing with clients, treat even the smallest matters or concerns as if they are of the utmost importantance because that's the way they likely seem to your clients. Explain basic things like billing and the scope of the attorney-clent relationship to new or potential clients. If someone thinks you actually give a shit and have treated them fairly, you'll be a leg up on pretty much every other lawyer when that person is talking to friends, family members, co-workers, etc. Depending on your market, you may want to try some phone book advertising if it's not too expensive--especially if you have or want to pursue a niche area that doesn't see much mention in phone book ads. I'd suggest internet marketing as much as possible. It's cheap and easy to set up and even self-design a basic web site through Network Solutions and others, with your own domain name for e-mail. Use free social networking sites. You may even want to consider purchasing banner ads on local web sites. Above all, keep costs down. If you're even halfway computer literate, you don't need a secretary right off the bat. If anyone questions you about answering your own phone, tell them it's your direct line. If anyone presses you on not having a secretary, explain it in business terms--you don't need one because of your mastery of labor-saving technology and it's a savings on overhead that you can pass on to your clients. Look into whether your state bar offers free or reduced-cost on-line research or E&O coverage. It will be tough, but it can be done.
176, 197:
Good luck in your job. None of these individuals saw it coming. They were all had good billable hour totals. (I even saw a couple of their yearly time data summaries.)
I agree this type of information would be far more useful than the incessant whining of Roxanna. None of them would agree to possibly do something along these lines even if complete anonymity were assured. They are too busy and would not want to jeopardize the chances of any of their friends getting jobs by spilling any secrets.
Suffice it to say, they all (at least the four who got jobs) did two things. First, they thought outside the box and looked for jobs with firms they would not have otherwise considered or looked in geographical areas away from where they were formerly located. Second, they did not burn ANY bridges and used their former colleagues for job leads and references.
The one thing any laid off associate must do is keep the lines of communication open to their former firm. Badmouthing your former employer will not get you a single interview or job offer. You must stay positive and explore all possibilities.
194 (I have not been laid off and have a great life.)
199, good luck in your job as well. I hope you do not get fired.
176 and 197
199, good luck in your job as well. I hope you do not get fired.
176 and 197
Time for the Waaaambulance to make an appearance. She has nothing but lame ass excuses - get off your duff, take your thumb out of your mouth, and make something happen.
Am Australian lawyer very interested in above debate. Worked in firms for 10 years. Felt very protected. Now work for self. Never had so much fun. Make reasonable living although not as much as before but much happier. But if you can't get work, mucb better to be busy than not whether writing blogs or doing some voluntary/pro bono work. You get to keep developing skills and feel better about yourself at same time. If you really want to be a lawyer, just do it. The money will follow passion.
Am Australian lawyer very interested in above debate. Worked in firms for 10 years. Felt very protected. Now work for self. Never had so much fun. Make reasonable living although not as much as before but much happier. But if you can't get work, mucb better to be busy than not whether writing blogs or doing some voluntary/pro bono work. You get to keep developing skills and feel better about yourself at same time. If you really want to be a lawyer, just do it. The money will follow passion.
Am Australian lawyer very interested in above debate. Worked in firms for 10 years. Felt very protected. Now work for self. Never had so much fun. Make reasonable living although not as much as before but much happier. But if you can't get work, mucb better to be busy than not whether writing blogs or doing some voluntary/pro bono work. You get to keep developing skills and feel better about yourself at same time. If you really want to be a lawyer, just do it. The money will follow passion.
195- Best of luck, and the advice given by 198 is good stuff. I'm posting because I'm a year into solo practice, and I'm making it work and enjoying the process, so if I can help one person start, then it's worth my time.
I quit a $140k job at a mid-sized firm that acted like it was biglaw, so I can relate to that perspective. The fact is, solo practice is night and day different from big firm practice. I like money and nice things as much as the next guy, but that life wasn't worth it for me, so I:
1) Started scanning the internet for advice on starting a solo practice. I stumbled upon myshingle.com, then the ABA solosez thread, and other sites that offer encouragement for want-to-be solos;
2) I saved 3-4 months of living expenses (which isn't much), then quit my associate job and immediately started looking for doc review and other contract jobs, while remaining open to anything that paid the bills. I would've helped someone move a sofa if it would've put money in my pocket. Luckily, doc review work was plentiful, so I landed a few intermittent assignments paying $40/hr., sometimes with overtime opportunities;
3) While doing doc review jobs, I printed up some business cards and fashioned myself a "sole practitioner" to people here and there. I also told family and friends that if they knew people who needed a lawyer, tell them to call me;
4) I told my first client, referred to me by a family member, that I did document review full time, was just starting my own practice, and could only work on his case part time. He retained me anyway to defend against a pretty serious wrongful termination/sexual harassment/ sexual assault case. I did little work on that case since the client ran out of money, but I learned what it was like to do everything on a case on my own, and I learned a ton. I did have a few years of litigation experience in a smaller firm that helped guide me, as well.
4) While continuing to take doc review jobs, other clients trickled in here and there. Eventually, I saved enough money from the doc review jobs to take the plunge and decide that I would only take cases as a solo -- no more doc review. However, I knew that I could fall back on doc review or other contract work if I ultimately needed to;
5) Once I "officially" became solo, I started telling people I knew, that I was taking cases. I advertised on craigslist, and in my spare time I answered legal questions on bulletin boards for free. Answering questions in informal forums helped me practice giving legal advice, while helping me get acquainted with the "real world" legal problems people face every day that are typically not dealt with by large firms (small-time criminal/DUI's, divorce, custody, personal injury, employment, trust, estates, etc.). Personally, I get a lot more satisfaction being able to tell people I can help them with their disputes rather than telling people, "My firm only works on big multi-million dollar legal disputes, so I don't know much about [fill-in-the-blank]." Not everyone likes these types of issues, however.
6) I continue to try to find ways to better operate my practice and find clients. I am far from "established' and it continues to be sink or swim, but the reality is that there are plenty of potential clients all over the place, the reason being that the low-to-moderate income segment is underserved and priced out of much of the legal market. Therefore, a large number of people simply represent themselves. As a result, many, many people: a) make unfavorable statements to police instead of calling a lawyer; b) give up custody of their kids without a fight instead of calling a lawyer; c) allow someone they lent thousands of dollars to just keep it, instead of calling a lawyer; d) accept unfairly low settlements from insurance companies instead of calling a lawyer; e) get fired, or harassed, or discriminated against and accept it, instead of calling a lawyer; f) get wrongfully evicted, or wrongfully evict someone instead of calling a lawyer. There are so many practice areas that solos can get into it's ridiculous. I haven't even touched on immigration, bankruptcy, mortgage modification, real property issues, debtor assistance, business entity formation, etc. People get screwed every day in this country because legal services are too expensive. As a solo, you can price your services lower, offer a flat fee, offer a partial contingency, barter for something you need, or whatever you need to do to keep the funds coming in. Don't worry about a "book of business" -- get into the trenches and, as someone has already said, hustle to get your clients. When a client asks you help with a problem, ask them what they want you to do, and listen without giving advice. Tell them you will get back to them. When they leave your office (or when you get off the phone, whatever), go pick up a practice guide and do some quick research at the library. It doesn't take long to know IF you can help them, and make some money.
7) When I feel like business might be getting treacherously slow, I choose "fight" (hustling to get business) over "flight" (desperately looking for a job).
I won't go into all the nuts and bolts issues that others have discussed, but I can confirm that it is easy to keep overhead low, and it is not easy to get clients. I view getting clients as having a job as a sales rep. If I sit around and post no sales at a job, I'll get fired. If I sit around and bring no clients into my firm, I have no business operating a firm. Getting clients is not rocket science, it just happens to necessitate activities that most people would rather not engage in, like networking and singing your own praises.
Solo practice is difficult for all the same reasons that any entrepreneurial venture is difficult. But, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you will find ways to make it work. If you don't want to be an entrepreneur, you will look for a job and -- hopefully, in this economy -- eventually find one. There is certainly no shame in being an employee, but for anyone to pretend that it is impossible to start a legal practice without some laundry list of qualifications or infrastructure, is disingenuous or at least misguided. Resist the urge to listen to those who say it cannot be done.
Dear 198 and 206 (man, it's weird to refer to people as numbers!),
Thank you both very much for the heartfelt advice and tips. That is *exactly* what I was looking for. I wish one or both of the two of you could write a column; I feel we would all learn from it a lot more than we do from the currently-commented post about reasons why starting a law firm *won't* work out. I know it can; I have seen it -- all law firms started out somewhere, even big law firms!!
So thank you both for the unique perspectives, experience and advice. I suggest you start your own blogs, and let me know the URLs.
Sincerely,
-195
I was laid off in February but had seen the writing on the wall. I was at my second firm and had completed a successful federal clerkship - but in this economy no one is immune. While employed, I spent my free time scouring the web for sources on setting up my own practice. Having already lateraled I knew that getting back on the Big Law interview train in this market just was no longer for me.
I found a lot of encouragement in websites like myshingle.com and solopracticeuniversity.com (must reads for anyone thinking about going solo). I began heavily taking CLE's on my interest area (entertainment, trademark, copyright, business transactions for small businesses).
I have minimal overhead (practice out of home for now) and I started with no clients but a huge social/work network. I have successfully tapped that network and now have several paying clients.
When you think about it - if you are spending 60 hours a week in the office to make $185,000 for 52 weeks out of the year (if you don't take a vacation -something I RARELY got to do in big law), you're only making around $65/hour anyway. The partners are making three times what you earn off of your labor. It does not take much to realize that if you work for your self and charge a measly $250 an hour, you can work less hours and do really well for yourself. Plus I finally have a life, can spend time with my husband and don't need a stranger to raise my daughter. All in all - getting laid off was probably one of the best things that happened to me.
Girl - get your sh!t together, pick yourself up and go take care of business! You may not like being self-employed, but you damn sure don't seem to like being unemployed either. What do you have to loose except this long winded string of complaints? I usually like your columns and could relate to them. But not having the luxury to sit and wait for my future to happen, I had to get out there and do it for myself. You can too.
208:
You don't get it do you? Roxana likes to whine about being unemployed. She is a member of the entitled generation who has had a leg up and hand up her entire life. She does not want to put in the extra effort required to go it alone. She is an entitled whiner who only went into the practice of law because somebody gave her a slot in a law school she should not have been admitted to anyway.
Great post, 97. ATL's "whiner-in-residence" clearly wants to hide somewhere and let others feed her. 97's post was worth slogging through all of her snotty-nosed whining and some of the other less-insightful comments.
209, 208 here. LOL - I hear you completely - and trust me, I get it. Though my message was directed to Roxanna, it was really more for the folks who are interested in pulling themselves up by their boot straps to take control of their careers.
I went to a top 5 law school and the idea of starting my own practice was never even considered. Schools like that push their students to firm life - or public interest (if you are "into" that - feel me?) - but you could graduate from one of these schools and never even realize that the vast majority of lawyers don't go the big law route and either start out MUCH smaller or set up their own shops. Going solo was a foreign idea to me until I met friends who had no choice but to go solo right out of law school. Now these were very smart people at the head of their class but b/c they went to "lesser" schools they just did not have big/small law options.
That was when I first realized that going solo was not an idea from another planet. I was not a fan of firm life but like the rest of the lemmings, kept running in place. Since being laid off, I have not felt this free since before law school.
Lesson of the day: you CAN do it. If you (Roxanna and/or other readers) spent half as much time investigating how successful solos get it done, as you do in thinking of un-researched and un-founded reasons as to why you canNOT do it - then you'd already be ahead of the game.
Considering most of the readers here would never make partner anyway, even in a good economy, you can't keep lateraling forever and eventually you have to decide what YOU are going to do with YOUR career. If you were laid off - just think of it as having to make this decision BEFORE you spend 5-7 years in a job you hate. Good luck - it CAN be done!
I have been in solo practice in NYC for 15 years since I left Biglaw. The practice has been personally and financially rewarding, and if life in Biglaw is half as bad as the blogs say it is I obviously made the right choice. Some advice for those who are considering hanging out a shingle:
1. As many have pointed out above, clients are the first priority. However, this does not mean you have to spend your days doing divorces and residential closing. There are a lot of talented people leaving the bigs banks right now, some voluntarily and some not. Many of them are going to start up their own enterprises and will need legal help. In my experience clients like this are very receptive to working with an ex-Biglaw attorney who comes at half the price. Your job is to find these people. Network with your former clients and ask your friends to help. If you start working with ambitous and talented young people now, your practice can grow along with their business.
2) If you're looking for office space and "back office" support, check out the classifieds in the NY Law Journal. There are always small firms looking to rent out an office or two, and if you spend enough time you can find a good deal. Most of these firms will share a copier, internet, fax, voice mail, etc., and some will offer typing help and paralegal services for a fee. I also know more than one lawyer who picked up some clients or even a new job from people they shared space with.
3) Learning some of the basics of technology is a huge help. Your will be on your way if you know how to hook together a PC, a printer and a backup drive; how to get your email hosted; how to install basic software; etc. Technology makes solo practice viable in a way that did not exist 15 years ago.
4) The most important part of this is the personal transition you will be making. Leaving Biglaw is childhood's end. Many people who stay at Biglaw never grow up. You will, in one way or another, and you'll be happier and better off for it.
Binder & Binder actually did a great job with my father's disability case...I'm just saying. If you're disabled, they're the way to go.
Regardless of whether Roxana's logic is sound, these comments have lots of great advice for anyone who is considering this option (and her past columns have also resulted in many comments with practical advice). That is reason enough for her to continue her column. As it happens, I generally do enjoy reading her columns.
what the fucks a shingle?
what the fucks a shingle?
It's a disease, there's nothing funny about the shingles.
i really don't understand what you get from posting rude and hostile comments that are empty of substance. especially against a person/situation you, i bet, are fortunate to not be in. constructive criticism is always appreciated but many comments on this and sooooo many posts are just bile.
i would very much like to know what pleasure you derive from this superfluous anonymous shit-tossing.
thanks.
oops. 218 was intended for a different comment thread. apologies...
No one has mentioned legal aid. I've gotten $75-$96 / hr for legal aid, learned a lot, had the satisfaction of helping people with interesting problems, met other clients while waiting in the court room.
I second what many have said about working from home.
Big advantage for new lawyer is when person calls with problem, I can meet with them right away, offer to get to work right away. Established lawyer will say "I'll meet with you next week." I say, "Can you come over today?" Client is pleased and retains me.
Never had a client complain about meeting with me at my home. Most seemed to like it.