pwnage

Sad that it's going to take several more installments of these to reach my law school.

it's amazing that indiana is on this list. good for them.

"lightening" - sigh....

I can honestly say that Vanderbilt is a great law school. I enjoyed everything from the city to Nashville, to the amazing law school facilities and the numerous Big Law firms that recruit there. If you want to live somewhere warm and cheery with cool peers check it out:)

WHERES CARDOZO

fight on!

This post needs to be renamed: Welcome to the Suck

Personally I don't find the anti-Catholic bigotry to be all that funny...

What happened to BC? They used to be way out in front of BU.

Sad to agree with # 3

Emory continues its pwnage of Georgia (also getting pwned by Alabama), Georgia State, and Mercer. Big surprise there.

I loved Vandy as well. Picked it over Chicago, GTown, NYU, and Berkeley based on serious scholarship money. Never regretted it for a moment, did well enough to have my choice of jobs, and am now debt-free. Undoubtedly you have to do better than you do at top top schools to get to make choices about where you want to go outside the south, but if you want to stay in the south, value quality of life, or have confidence that you can get good grades, Vandy's the place.

10 = Paddy O'Furniture

Vandy Varies Vicariously, Vacillating Votes Very Volatilely

I'm not sure why Vanderbilt's bar passage was determined using NY exam-takers. It seems like there were an equal number of people who took Texas, Tennessee, Illinois, California, Georgia, and New York.

Emory continues their slow and steady ascension to the top.

Watch out Vandy...We're coming for you next!

I sent my law school apps out in bulk,
But am left to sit here and sulk.
I didn't get Michigan,
And in the end just got in
To the part-time evening program at GULC.
--Above the Limerick

Between W&M and GW, I would unquestionably take W&M. Same quality education, half the price. Better placement, less debt, just have to be able to stand Williamsburg, VA for 3 years.

GWU doesn't have a stronger claim to "top 20" status than any of the schools that have replaced it -- Emory, Minnesota, and Boston University. In fact, the ordinal rankings in the 28 to 20 echelon probably do not mean very much; these schools are more alike than distinguishable (all have strong student bodies, good regional placement, engaged and productive faculties, etc.). Within the group, the schools that seem most likely to move into the T18 grouping are Washington University (big improvements across the board since Joel Seligman was dean, and continuing under Kent Syverud) and Emory (making great progress under David Partlett). IU-B merits close attention too -- one year's rankings could be a fluke. Or something else. Time will tell. . . Anyway, my money is on Washington University or Emory to break out from this group over time.

I loved Vandy as well!

is Iowa lower this year too?

Wow, I'm generally not one to comment on Elie's postings, but I have to say that those jokes/attempts at humor seriously fell flat. Please, if you're going to mock schools/religious institutions, please make it funny--that shouldn't be too hard to do.

#6-you must be either (1) an ex-frat boy in denial of his lack of intelligence or (2) a southern sorority girl who dreams of getting engaged before she graduates. otherwise there is no way you could possible tolerate the craptastic vanderbilt. only thing vanderbilt has going for itself is it is better than emory

I am a 3L at a law school ranked in the 20 - 25 range.

I can tell you that 2 years ago Latham, Skadden, Sidley, Shearman, and even Cravath regularly hired our grads.

Now, during my 3L year, these same firms did not extend any offers during OCI. These schools are getting hit the hardest in the current hiring climate as the big firms are narrowing their focus to a smaller number of T14 and T6 schools.

Actually, it is a surprise that Emory gets such high ratings. Their students are the laughing stock of attorneys in Atlanta because everyone knows that they make terrible lawyers. Med students? Outstanding. Lawyers? Great on the LSAT - Pathetic in practice.

I'm not too happy about the Catholic bigotry either.

BU may be higher in the rankings than BC, but if you went to BU, you'd have to go to that ugly building every day, not the beautiful campus in Newton where BC is located.

#6-you must be either (1) an ex-frat boy in denial of his lack of intelligence or (2) a southern sorority girl who dreams of getting engaged before she graduates. otherwise there is no way you could possibly tolerate the craptastic vanderbilt. only thing vanderbilt has going for itself is it is better than emory

WM is by far the shrewder choice over GW - it costs less and your chances of BIGLAW employment are the same.

Rankings pwnge?

Elie, stop trying to bait people into comments and site traffic. There are two points separating #20 from #26. These are peer schools and to have one of them claiming superiority over the other is like bragging about who got to sit in the front seat of the short bus - - you're still not one of the big kids (read: T-14).

I LOVE ACID!!!

Above the Limerick has given me new reason to peruse the comments section again. Please continue sharing the goodness.

Between W&M and GW, I would unquestionably take W&M. Same quality education, half the price. Better placement, less debt, just have to be able to stand Williamsburg, VA for 3 years.

These schools are all TTT's
And thus they mean nothing to me
I hope that Elie
will quit putting food in his belly
and Lat comes back ASAP

-another limerick

Vanderbilt is head-and-shoulders above these other schools, and some above it also (eg, UCLA). Vandy is on par numerically with texas and georgetown, and as my friends who went to georgetown tell me, "I don't know anyone who wasn'tr miserable there." I went to Vandy and without law rev had over 15 offers in DC and NY.

Wasn't BC Law ranked well ahead of BU for something like 20 years? What happened? Did BU redouble its efforts? Did BC slip? Both? Neither? Also, doesn't BC normally do much better in the recruiting and placement game? That was my impression. I do not get the BU ranking. It's a great school, but does it deserve #20?

Vanderbilt is head-and-shoulders above these other schools, and some above it also (eg, UCLA). Vandy is on par numerically with texas and georgetown, and as my friends who went to georgetown tell me, "I don't know anyone who wasn't miserable there." I went to Vandy and without law rev had over 15 offers in DC and NY.

Vanderbilt is head-and-shoulders above these other schools, and some above it also (eg, UCLA). Vandy is on par numerically with texas and georgetown, and as my friends who went to georgetown tell me, "I don't know anyone who wasn't miserable there." I went to Vandy and without law rev had over 15 offers in DC and NY.

While Williamsburg lacks the "big city" offereings found in D.C., William & Mary offers a great and personalized legal education for a much more affordable price than many schools in this ranking range. Plus Williamsburg has some great golf courses and a very mild climate. I don't believe there is a significant difference in job placement opportunities for schools in this range - so it is a good idea to consider quality of life and cost. If I got into only W&M and GW, I'd go to W&M, no question.

Good grief what happened to W&L? Didn't it used to be top 20? Now W&M is ranked higher?

When will TC Williams pass over W&L?

While Williamsburg lacks the "big city" offerings found in D.C., William & Mary offers a great and personalized legal education for a much more affordable price than many schools in this ranking range. Plus Williamsburg has some great golf courses and a very mild climate. I don't believe there is a significant difference in job placement opportunities for schools in this range - so it is a good idea to consider quality of life and cost. If I got into only W&M and GW, I'd go to W&M, no question.

Ironically, those were the only two law schools that I got into..GW and W&M. I chose GW since there were "only two bars near W&M" and I didn't want to move during the summers to get a job in D.C. Oh..and GW was ranked significantly better....

150 grand in debt later and..well....Da@$ you US News and World Report.

27

Wild guess - you go to UGA?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Though BU and BC maintain ties to their respective religious traditions, they are both full of Jooooooooos.

Big Moishe (BU '07)

Did you just flippantly compare the Pope to Hitler? Didn't you guys go to some upper echelon law school where they teach you that bigotry is bad and that tolerance is good. Oh wait, I am sorry, anti-religious bigotry is OK once you climb past the TTT schools. My bad, please continue.

What is up with the BC Law v. BU thing? Wasn't BC ranked well ahead of BU for 20 years? Did BU redouble its efforts or BC slip or both? I find it hard to believe that BU deserves to be #20.

Dean Lawrence is trying to blame the test rather than studying the results. No 22 year old cares about people like J Edgar Hoover or Dulles who died before they were born. They only look at the rankings. There is a heck of a lot of difference between top tier (top 25) and second tier (25-50 law schools).

We all know that tests aren't fair, but they have to be used because humans need a simple way to compare similar objects, things, law schools, etc.

Look at the results of the tests and study ways to improve the law school.

Don't become Rick Wagoner of GM, blaming consumers for not being aware of your 'great product.'

When I applied to law school, I compared the University of Alabama with GW. At the time, UA was barely a second-tier law school. Now its almost on par with GW. The University of Alabama law school has such prestigous alumni such as former state supreme court judge Roy Moore (the ten commandments judge) or the infamous George Wallace.

just curious, what V20 firms recruit at vanderbilt? i picked chicago over vandy because i thought i would have better job prospects

Where is GWLC? Near UPennState?

Emory, Washington University and Notre Dame also have significant advantages over the other institutions on this list by virtue of their significant endowments, meaning they can throw money around to continue to improve their student bodies if they so desire. That being said, I'm a public school kid, so I say "Go Big 10!"

BU decreased the size of its JD class and increased the size of its LLM program to specifically increase its US News ranking...

Any list that does not include both UCLA and USC is wrong.

WashLee should be no 17.

52, that's not true. They decreased the ratio to make sure that JD's are knee deep in Euro-vagina.

@36/38/39 - do you really, honestly think Vandy's better than UCLA? And I don't mean in terms of "popped-collars per capita" or "honkytonks nearby" or any other category like that

W&L over W&M or GW any day...

Isn't Fred Lawrence (the GW Dean) the same guy that took over 100 days to grade 1L criminal law exams?

The rankings aren't that meaningful, what matters is the type of alumni that students from these schools become. I went to BC, I think it's clear that BC alumni rule the Boston legal market, and there are also a lot of great BC alums here in NYC intent on making a good name for the school and helping out recent grads. Also, it sucks to BU, and Notre Dame is a wretched wasteland (don't let Rudy fool you)

BU lopped off a third of its 1L class several years ago, and replaced that 1/3 of the student body with an equal number of new LLM students. Thus, they became more selective (although it's still harder to get into BC), while maintaining a steady source of revenue.

However, BC still places better, and is still more prestigious, particularly in Boston and New York.

Must suck to B.U....

Isn't Fred Lawrence (the GW Dean) the same guy that took over 100 days to grade 1L criminal law exams?

Yawn. If you go to any of these schools get ready to work for Binder & Binder.

Got into GW and Vanderbilt. Went to GW because it was on the rise and in DC. Now really regret that choice. Vandy is head and shoulders above GW. Its placement is better, its career center actually cares about its students future and the quality of life is better. If you are faced with a similar situation go with less money at Vandy. Oh and Lawrence not being aware of what was really driving GW's ranking down is terrible. Unfortunately, as a law school dean you have to be hyper aware of your US News rankings. The quality of students will drop in the next incoming class. It's going to be hard for GW to rise after such a public catastrophe.

BU's class size is half of what it was many years ago. This increased the overall quality and it's a much different institution than it used to be. Placement for BU and BC is about the same these days.

BC affords its law students the chance to mingle with the freshman class on the Newton campus. This was ignored by US News.

41: W & L decided to go vo-tech. After all, it's easier in a place like Lexington to adopt a trade school model for legal education than to offer graduate school offerings, perhaps because there are no graduate schools other than law at W & L. Smart students have fled to schools that are not hell bent on teaching them how to file pleadings in Roanoke County Circuit Court. Do ANY top 25 schools require their 3L students to obtain a "third year practice certificate" from the local state supreme court? And brag about doing so? Don't think so. . .

Isn't Fred Lawrence (the GW Dean) the same guy that took over 100 days to grade 1L criminal law exams?

@49 Do an advanced search on the NALP...you can get all the info there.

@26 It's not that the large firms aren't hiring outside the T14...it's that they're being more selective.

41: W & L decided to go vo-tech. After all, it's easier in a place like Lexington to adopt a trade school model for legal education than to offer graduate school offerings, perhaps because there are no graduate schools other than law at W & L. Smart students have fled to schools that are not hell bent on teaching them how to file pleadings in Roanoke County Circuit Court. Do ANY top 25 schools require their 3L students to obtain a "third year practice certificate" from the local state supreme court? And brag about doing so? Don't think so. . .

W&L's innovative third-year curriculum probably explains its tumble.

Being from Atlanta, I don't know why anyone would go to Emory over UGA (unless you're going to med school). Emory is in a sucky part of town, the people are all northern, the girls are ugly, and it costs 3 times as much if you're in state.

William and Mary must be thrilled that people are comparing it to GW. I don't think that's going to last.

43 -- really? The presence (or absence) of bars affected your choice of law school?

27- Attorneys in Atlanta just resent the fact that their firms can't recruit Emory grads as they flock to more prestigious firms in NY and DC. And you have to work along side grads from 2nd tier schools.

Lawrence needs to go. Not watching the numbers more carefully to avoid this drop has lead to a very public embarrassment. As a 3L about to leave the school, I feel embarrassed for the institution and bad for those now looking for a job.

Love Love Love Vandy

All these TTT's look the same to me.

74: How can Lawrence be expected to stay on top of U.S. News ranking criteria when he is unable to simply grade 1L exams in under 100 days?

The reason GW dropped 8 spots has nothing to do with job placement or part-time students. The real reason is simple – GW is a festering toilet facing an inevitable decline. Is anyone really surprised that this overrated TTT is falling down the list? Just look at the people that graduate from GW and it becomes clear that this is just a natural correction in their ranking.

Wash U will eventually pass Vandy.

They took their Dean, they took their career services people, they have something like the 4th highest endowment of any school and the student population as a whole is ugly (which means they must be real smart), but if you're looking for a hot southern undergrad future wife ... Vandy is the place to be.

I went to W&L, SMU Law and now have a very respectable position at Locke Lord. W&L should be top 25 easily.

D

BC Law Graduation Speaker: Ben Bernanke. Last year, the Attorney General of the United States.

BU Law: ?????

27,

A) that's ridiculous. Emory lawyers are hardly a "laughing stock."

B) most of our top students practice in NY, DC, Chicago, LA.

Atlanta is a "secondary" market...perfect for students at UGA and GSU.

Law school can be fun; just enjoy it
Without letting these rankings spoil it.
But if you went to Syracuse U
Know I'm better than you
'Cuz I went to a *second* tier toilet.
--Above the Limerick

Emory sucks. TTThey think that Civil Procedure is a philosophy course.

I applied to 8 of the top 20, and ultimately chose Vandy over Chicago, UVa, Wash U and Duke (waitlisted at Northwestern, rejected at Harvard and Yale). Reason was simple enough: wanted to go to a good school but also enjoy myself. I do not get off on putting in crazy hours at school and making myself miserable.

Results: I graduate in a couple weeks, have a clerkship lined up next year and firm job for 2010, and the (ridiculous but honest) truth is I've had just as much fun at law school as I did in undergrad. Nashville has a great bar scene, and Vandy offers a friendly non-competitive environment. I know a lot of schools say that, but if you visit Vandy you can tell it's true (and the result is a cycle: people who want friends and not competitors choose Vandy, so the tradition continues).

My advice: if you care about having a life, friends, and beer during law school, visit Vanderbilt. Just visiting will give you an accurate picture of the vibe and you can decide whether it's for you.

I went to one of the named Catholic schools and then on to GW for an LLM. In my opinion, GW was inferior academically. What it did well was be in DC.

The externships/internships that students could do offered better, more marketable, experience than any regular course. In one class of 20 + I remember nearly 50% of the students had internships: DOJ, DOD, non-profits, etc.

Widener will work with whales.

W&L over GW, Vandy, Emory. The third year plan may be having an adverse effect on W&L, but there's no question in my mind it's a better place to go to school. I still wouldn't even consider W&M.

Is it me or is IU up from 37 only three years ago. Wow did I choose poorly.

I went to one of the named Catholic schools and then on to GW for an LLM. In my opinion, GW was inferior academically. What it did well was be in DC.

The externships/internships that students could do offered better, more marketable, experience than any regular course. In one class of 20 + I remember nearly 50% of the students had internships: DOJ, DOD, non-profits, etc.

I applied to 8 of the top 20, and ultimately chose Vandy over Chicago, UVa, Wash U and Duke (waitlisted at Northwestern, rejected at Harvard and Yale). Reason was simple enough: wanted to go to a good school but also enjoy myself. I do not get off on putting in crazy hours at school and making myself miserable.

Results: I graduate in a couple weeks, have a clerkship lined up next year and firm job for 2010, and the (ridiculous but honest) truth is I've had just as much fun at law school as I did in undergrad. Nashville has a great bar scene, and Vandy offers a friendly non-competitive environment. I know a lot of schools say that, but if you visit Vandy you can tell it's true (and the result is a cycle: people who want friends and not competitors choose Vandy, so the tradition continues).

My advice: if you care about having a life, friends, and beer during law school, visit Vanderbilt. Just visiting will give you an accurate picture of the vibe and you can decide whether it's for you.

SUWANEE.

'Nuff said.

going by an eyeball test, i would say that so far the schools from 6-15 had the least douchiest comments

by far 1-5 was the worst with the ridiculous NYU-Columbia back and forth

I did a BC chick in the ass once at a moot court competition in Boston.

moot moxy

71,

Sucky part of town? The Virginia Highlands is probably the best part of Atlanta. Believe it or not, one day you WILL grow out of Buckhead, you fratty douche.

George WashingTTTon

I assume the Nazi remark is to the fact that the Pope was once in the Hitler Youth. 'course, it was mandatory for boys after the war started, so it might as well have been a learning experience about the banality of evil than indicative of some sort of adolescent political view (he also apparently refused to go to the meetings). Only liberal hacks like Elie would go for the cheap larf (and then flub it anyway).

- not catholic

I know I'm kind of old, but what does TTT stand for?

48,

I'm sure both cases were a result of something taught by the Law School.

48 - That is not right. TLS lemmings may believe that there is some magical divide at 25, but that's just not seen in the hiring profiles.

The NJ250 lists show a gradual funnel decline, with the % of BigLaw sliding from ~ Top Third just below T14 to Top 15%. Clerkships and academia are elite only at all of them.

The only V20 firm that doesn't recruit at Vandy is Cravath -- and people have gotten hired there by submitting apps directly.

Grow up. The anti-Catholic bigotry isn't cute.

GW v. W&M is an easy choice...

GW Cost of Attendance: $66,300
W&M In State: $35,864
W&M Out of State: $46,064

Why would you pay $20-30k/year more for similar employment prospects and education quality?

I feel bad for GW students...

I grew up in South Carolina and seriously considered Duke and Vandy but chose WashU instead. I loved it. I had a fantastic time there, learned a lot, and was surrounded by many other bright students. The faculty and administration there are killer.

WashU has been moving up and I think it will continue to do so.

Indiana University School of Law - Indianapolis should probably be higher and closer to its sister school in Bloomington.

Grow up. The anti-Catholic bigotry isn't cute.

i've never even heard ot these schools. indy who now?

Notre Dame is a wretched wasteland?! Have you ever seen that campus!?

Indiana University School of Law - Indianapolis should probably be higher and closer to its sister school in Bloomington.

Not saying which school is better, but to answer people's questions about how BU is higher than BC now, BU jumped BC when they cut the size of their class in half a little while back.

95,
Emory is in Decatur, not Virginia Highlands.

88 is right. W & L is a great law school, particularly if you enjoy a laid-back, cooperative student body, with top 20/top 25 credentials. In fact, we *are* top 25, if you just look at student body quality. It's not our fault that the faculty has driven the bus off a cliff! As someone who saw this program adopted, I can tell you that no one asked for our opinion about it -- or seemed to care what we thought. Most W & L students want a rigorous and theoretical grounding in the law, e.g., about half the current class has declined to participate in the 3L program. Eventually the faculty & admin. will get the message, the practice 3L program will be dropped or made just an option, and W & L will be back in the top 25 -- where it belongs!

Not saying which school is better, but to answer people's questions about how BU is higher than BC now, BU jumped BC when they cut the size of their class in half a little while back.

As a GW Law alum, I picked GW over some higher ranked schools, and I would probably make the same choice again, if I were offered the same money at all the different schools and the rankings were what they are today. However, it would have been a more difficult decision, because the rankings matter, especially for those schools, like GW, that are well-respected, yet not quite elite. GW's fairly consistent ranking in the top 20 in recent years was helping cement its reputation above some of its peer schools, and a sustained-stay at or near the 30 mark will diminsh these gains.

I think the Dean really needs to evaluate why this occured, not just blame changes in methodology, and see what he can do to fix it.

I grew up in South Carolina and seriously considered Duke and Vandy but chose WashU instead. I loved it. I had a fantastic time there, learned a lot, and was surrounded by many other bright students. The faculty and administration there are killer.

WashU has been moving up and I think it will continue to do so.

85/92 - Sorry, but UVA is Vandy, but T10. Same fratty culture, small city vibe, etc., but with a better school/employment prospects. Duke is pretty much the same thing.

Given your choices, I would killself rather than go to any of the three, and I would hate to go to Chicago, too...at least you avoided that festering hole of misery

66/69,

The most civil way I can put it is that you've greatly mischaracterized the third year plan. It's not popular with all the students--only the ones who are actually interested in learning something about how to practice law (not just how to write memos). I do think it's scaring some applicants off (the acceptance rate is well above comparably ranked schools), just as the rural location has always scared off many applicants. But in the long run, I think it will pay off because grads will be less likely to have that deer-in-the-headlights look about them when they take on their first assignment.

And I don't see how the absence of grad schools in Lexington has anything to do with the third-year plan. The school has never had a problem teaching the traditional way, but has made a conscious decision to try something different. If it catches on, I think it will start a positive trend (look at UCLA's "prepare-to-practice" LLM) and provide students with some useful skills during what's a otherwise wasted 3rd year.

So if by "smart students," you mean "students interested in putting off facing reality until they're actually thrown into it headfirst," you're probably right. But I "lazy students" would better fit your context.

What's with the religious hate speech, Elie?

W&M over GW, hands down. No contest. 1/3 of the cost, cheaper cost of living. Nicer place to go to school, nicer people.

My W&L undergrad prepared me for my big law job at Locke Lord.

BU cut their size and gave all grads w/o jobs "research positions".

Instantly rankings jump.

These rankings and the monopoly they hold is a joke.

What's with the religious hate speech, Elie?

GW vs. W&M is better answered with this question: DC vs *shudder* Williamsburg.

Wow, the names on this list make my eyes bleed. This third tier is a sad bunch indeed.

What's with the religious hate speech, Elie?

WashU just built another law building and announced a partnership with Brookings Inst. which will help it game employment numbers in this downturn. The school continues to place more and more grads in DC and Boston. The Dean of the law school is relentless and has the support of the university dean.

It is just a matter of time before WashU uses its endowment to drown Vandy. In ten years, you will see WashU in the Top 14.

Moving down from the T14,
Now the prospects are looking quite lean.
No job and huge debt,
You are filled with regret
As you're forced to pawn off your own spleen.

-NNAE

Apart from Vandy, the rest of these schools hardly touch a candle to Notre Dame. COA clerkships, SCOTUS clerkships, BIGLAW, hiring partnerships at Vault firms... the list goes on and on. And for a school that graduates fewer than 200 each year, it's damn impressive. Whoever the hell plausibly thinks that Iowa or Minnesota or Indiana are "peer schools" is simply delusional.

I know I'm kind of old, but what does TTT stand for?

22 - Nope, Iowa went up this year!

BU is a shithole.

BC is paradise.

79-

Good analysis. I agree with everything except the ugly student body part. While it is true that the undergrad population is pretty busted, the law school population is slightly more attractive.

I wonder if future generations will feel the same way about the Obama Youths. Oh sorry, I meant the Green Job Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, Experience Corps, Senior Corps, Classroom Corps, Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, Veterans Corps, Homeland Security Corps, Global Energy Corps, and other National Service Corps.

Equating the Pope with Hitler? Surprised you would publish such an anti-Catholic (and patently false) comment. I wonder if ATL would similarly tolerate anti-Semitic remarks.

we'll see how craptastic fall recruiting will be at gw, maybe laTTTham will come by.

I chose Vandy because every alum that I talked to when I applied loved it, and I loved it too. I was non-law review and in middle of my class, but received offers from three V50 firms. More importantly though, the students genuinely liked one another and got along. It was the opposite of the law school horror stories that seem so common, and a great place to go to school.

For most UGA students, UGA was their first choice. This is not even close to true about Emory which is full of long island d-bags who are bitter that they did not get into any ivy league schools. I got into Emory straight away and was wait-listed at UGA (before getting admitted last-minute).

I like when people compare deans of law schools and which school has better "this" and "that," as if they went to both schools.

You all need to get a life.

134: The answer is no. AIPAC is in charge of this board, among other fora.

- Proud AIPAC member

GW's decline is sad. GW made such great progress with Dean Young. It was on the rise and starting to be viewed as a good (not yet great) law school. Don't know whether Dean Lawrence was the right guy. He was vetted, but his comments suggest he doesn't know how to run a law school. He needs to seriously evaluate why GW fell and address it. A sustained stop at 28 or lower will kill all the progress made under Young. The CDO at GW is miserable and needs an overhaul. Don't know if Sheila Driscoll is still there, but that woman was a terrible human being that thought very little of the school.

79-

Good analysis. I agree with everything except the ugly student body part. While it is true that the undergrad population is pretty busted, the law school population is slightly more attractive.

The primary cause of Emory running away from Georgia over the last couple of years is not in the top end of the class. The problem is that the bottom half of UGA's class pales in comparison to the bottom half of Emory.

Vandy is a good school. A damn good school.

Notre Dame is a wretched wasteland?! Have you ever seen that campus!?

I work for a partner who has asked me to send him "tweet updates" to him about a case while he is traveling. I was afraid to ask, but I think that this has something to do with "twittering" or sending "IM" messages. Sorry to impose, but can someone briefly explain what this means? I am a hopeless luddite. Thank you.

85,

Chose Vandy over UVA because you wanted to enjoy law school more? I call B.S. Be honest -- Vandy gave you more $$$.

I am a WashU grad, but agree that Notre Dame is the most underrated law school in the country. It should probably be a T14 school. It should definitely be ahead of BU, Emory, and state schools like Minn, UIUC.

The thing Notre Dame has going for it is fierce alumni loyalty--rivaling schools like HLS or YLS. They really look out for their own.

128 is delusional. Notre Dame hasn't been the best law school in Indiana in a very long time.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOO CARRRREEEEESSSSSSS

W&L -- wait your turn, this is not your bracket.

20: better placement? this is the problem with u.s. news--they compare raw employment data without considering the quality of the actual jobs the graduates attain. it's why schools like university of Alabama are in the top 30.

number of aw firms attending W&M OCI: 190

number of law firms attending GW OCI: 519

and yes i realize gw is larger which explains some of the difference. but that doesn't explain the fact that gw places a greater PERCENTAGE into nlj 250 firms and federal clerkships.

though if your goal is to practice in the south, W&M or W&L are clearly superior.

If Notre Dame has slipped in the rankings it's because the school got pwned by aipac.

85,

Chose Vandy over UVA because you wanted to enjoy law school more? I call B.S. Be honest -- Vandy gave you more $$$.

Comparing all these schools is adorable and all, but, no one has mentioned what a tremendous risk it is to attend any of these schools. None of them place anywhere close to half of their students in market or near-market jobs, despite what their career services brochures advertise. Sure, some schools are better than others, and there's always a few lazies padding the bottom of the class, but, it must be scary as hell to know that you have to beat 3/4 of your class to have a chance at a good job.

Attending anything outside of the top 15 without some serious scholarship money is just foolish.

I loved my 3 years at GW and don't regret the choice for a minute. Will say placement seems a reasonable place to look for rankings decline - perhaps heads at CDO should roll. In any case, DC over Williamsburg any day of the week, and I don't really know many kids from W&M who are working at big firms up here, yet I know plenty of GW kids who are. Don't know why, but just saying...

NY law firms prefer BU to BC. BC students tend to be more regional and stay in the Boston market. BUT students are comparitively more spread out over the country.

Hey, 150, it was our bracket! And will be again!

quite disturbed by the anti-Catholic remarks. i thought this was a law blog.

154,

Don't you think it's a fair assumption that the top 25% at these schools probably receive some serious scholarship money? Likewise, don't you think it's fair to assume that the bottom 75% at these schools either doesn't expect or intend to look for the kind of job you're talking about or is seriously deluded?

WHY IS ATL STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS??? ONCE YOU START TO PRACTICE, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHERE YOU WENT TO LAW SCHOOL AFTER YOU ACTUALLY START TO WORK.

You guys are bullshit.

I for one can attest to the TTTedness of W&L. The administration at the law school is a complete joke. They openly admit to gaming the US News ranking. When attending a law school preview for undergrads, the deans were not even slightly embarrassed to admit that they tried to keep the class as small as possible, accepted undeserving minorities in disproportionate numbers, and did not give preference to W&L undergrad students (who rarely received scholarship money as undergrads). Furthermore, the president and other deans pretty openly admitted that the school took the majority of the money from undergrad tuition revenues to give ridiculous scholarships to law applicants with either high GPAs or LSATs in order to game the system. It was an absolute joke that the administration stole from the undergrad, which is by far more prestigious, to try to keep their TTT law school afloat.

I'm happy to see the law school drop like a rock. The way the school handled the situation where a gay student was assaulted was an absolute joke. The dean and most of the faculty left after the incident. Their openness is gaming the US News rankings is embarrassing. People who consider that shithole of a law school better than W&M are either on acid or attend the sinking ship.

To you, W&L Law, the smile on my face gets bigger the more you drop in the rankings. I'm glad to see that you're finally getting recognized at the TTT shithole that you are. Thanks to you, I'm happily enjoying my T6.

-Fugitive From Justice

I loved WashU. Great school, great town, great students, great faculty, and a great atomsphere. What other school has five kegs of beer delivered every friday for happy hour?

145: why would the partner want "tweet" updates (which is twitter) when that's so obviously unsecured? if this isn't flame, you should point out to him that sending him email updates would accomplish the same thing.

W&L is easily on par with GULC/UVA. These rankings are a joke.

I for one can attest to the TTTedness of W&L. The administration at the law school is a complete joke. They openly admit to gaming the US News ranking. When attending a law school preview for undergrads, the deans were not even slightly embarrassed to admit that they tried to keep the class as small as possible, accepted undeserving minorities in disproportionate numbers, and did not give preference to W&L undergrad students (who rarely received scholarship money as undergrads). Furthermore, the president and other deans pretty openly admitted that the school took the majority of the money from undergrad tuition revenues to give ridiculous scholarships to law applicants with either high GPAs or LSATs in order to game the system. It was an absolute joke that the administration stole from the undergrad, which is by far more prestigious, to try to keep their TTT law school afloat.

I'm happy to see the law school drop like a rock. The way the school handled the situation where a gay student was assaulted was an absolute joke. The dean and most of the faculty left after the incident. Their openness is gaming the US News rankings is embarrassing. People who consider that shithole of a law school better than W&M are either on acid or attend the sinking ship.

To you, W&L Law, the smile on my face gets bigger the more you drop in the rankings. I'm glad to see that you're finally getting recognized at the TTT shithole that you are. Thanks to you, I'm happily enjoying my T6.

-Fugitive From Justice

145: Twitter is a free social networking and micro-blogging service that enables its users to send and read other users' updates known as tweets. Tweets are text-based posts of up to 140 characters in length which are displayed on the user's profile page and delivered to other users who have subscribed to them (known as followers). Senders can restrict delivery to those in their circle of friends or, by default, allow anybody to access them. Users can send and receive tweets via the Twitter website, Short Message Service (SMS) or external applications. The service is free to use over the Internet, but using SMS may incur phone service provider fees.

Since its creation in 2006 by Jack Dorsey, Twitter has gained extensive notability and popularity worldwide. It is often described as the "SMS of Internet," in that the site provides the functionality (via its application programming interfaces) for other desktop and web-based applications to send and receive short text messages, often obscuring the Twitter service itself.

79-

Good analysis. I agree with everything except the ugly student body part. While it is true that the undergrad population is pretty busted, the law school population is slightly more attractive.

Hi, 128. Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 Iowa grads clerking for the COA at this very moment, including one in the 9th Circuit. We also have an Iowa grad on the Fed Circuit.

So that's 5, without so much as a meager attempt to research the full number.

Rank by Average of 75th/25th LSAT

Rank
School
Avg. of the 75th/25th
LSAT
Avg. of the 75th/25th GPA
Approx.
Class Size

1
Yale University
173.5
3.870
200

2
Harvard University
172.5
3.850
550

3
Columbia University
171.5
3.685
400

4
New York University
171.0
3.700
450

5 University of Chicago 171.0 3.625 200
6
Stanford University
169.5
3.845
200

7
Georgetown University
169.0
3.630
450

8
University of Virginia
169.0
3.690
350

9
Northwestern University
169.0
3.600
250

10
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
168.5
3.640
350

11
University of Pennsylvania
168.5
3.690
250

12
Duke University
168.5
3.715
200

13
Cornell University
167.0
3.660
200

14
University of California, Berkeley
166.5
3.770
250

15
University of California, Los Angeles
166.0
3.695
300

16
Vanderbilt University
166.0
3.685
200

17
University of Southern California
166.0
3.590
200

18
George Washington University
165.5
3.630
500

19
University of Texas, Austin
165.5
3.590
450

20
University of Notre Dame
165.5
3.580
150

21
Boston University
165.0
3.660
300


Fordham University
165.0
3.575
300

23
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
165.0
3.530
250

24
Washington University, St. Louis
165.0
3.500
200

25
Brigham Young University
164.5
3.690
150

26
Cardozo Law School/Yeshiva University
164.0
3.500
250

Emory University
164.0
3.550
250

28
Washington & Lee University
164.0
3.530
150

BU is the most wonderful law school. It's 18 stories tall!! Don't hate, BC, because there's a new top dog south of the river. We beat you in hockey and we beat you in this annual randomization of rankings.

I'm gonna go down the street and see what BU's superior ranking will buy me. Oh, nothing.

See you next year!

This post just confirms what everyone already knows -- anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable American prejudice (in fact, there's a good book with almost that title).

As for the GW vs. W&M choice, I made this exact choice (not just between these schools, but they were the only serious contenders). I chose W&M, and in spite of my general hatred of law school, I'm glad I did. The atmosphere is much more collegial than any other school I visited, and there are plenty of opportunities in the DC area.

111,

Actually, Emory is in Atlanta, although it is close to Decatur. Also, it is about 2 miles from the Virginia Highlands. FYI...they'll SPRAY-YA in DE-CAY-TA

111,

Emory is in between the Virginia Highlands and Decatur. I am sitting in the building right now.

UVA hates Catholics and show this hatred by always popping their collars.

One more thing, their third year program is nothing more than a gimmick. I'd be embarrassed to attend an institution that would pull such a trick. I laugh at students, or should I say turds, floating around in this toilet.

-Fugitive From Justice

Minnesota's getting a bad rap on here and it's not quite accurate. We're down the street from downtown, so there's terrific access to the firms. In the recession, I'll take my chances on firms that do every bit the quality work of coastal shops at a fraction the price. Additionally, Minneapolis isn't exactly irrelevant. Target, 3M, Best Buy, Medtronic, Wells Fargo. In total, 19 of the Fortune 500 are here.

Moreover, and also especially pertinent now, the COA is the second lowest in the T-20.

I'm not saying I would have gone here over some schools above it, but people should get their heads out of their asses about Minnesota.

This post just confirms what everyone already knows -- anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable American prejudice (in fact, there's a good book with almost that title).

As for the GW vs. W&M choice, I made this exact choice (not just between these schools, but they were the only serious contenders). I chose W&M, and in spite of my general hatred of law school, I'm glad I did. The atmosphere is much more collegial than any other school I visited, and there are plenty of opportunities in the DC area.

I was an AIPAC spy when I attended BC Law. I learned that without AIPAC, BC would be TTT.

Rank by Average of 75th/25th LSAT

Rank
School
Avg. of the 75th/25th
LSAT
Avg. of the 75th/25th GPA
Approx.
Class Size

1
Yale University
173.5
3.870
200

2
Harvard University
172.5
3.850
550

3
Columbia University
171.5
3.685
400

4
New York University
171.0
3.700
450

5 University of Chicago 171.0 3.625 200
6
Stanford University
169.5
3.845
200

7
Georgetown University
169.0
3.630
450

8
University of Virginia
169.0
3.690
350

9
Northwestern University
169.0
3.600
250

10
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
168.5
3.640
350

11
University of Pennsylvania
168.5
3.690
250

12
Duke University
168.5
3.715
200

13
Cornell University
167.0
3.660
200

14
University of California, Berkeley
166.5
3.770
250

15
University of California, Los Angeles
166.0
3.695
300

16
Vanderbilt University
166.0
3.685
200

17
University of Southern California
166.0
3.590
200

18
George Washington University
165.5
3.630
500

19
University of Texas, Austin
165.5
3.590
450

20
University of Notre Dame
165.5
3.580
150

21
Boston University
165.0
3.660
300


Fordham University
165.0
3.575
300

23
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
165.0
3.530
250

24
Washington University, St. Louis
165.0
3.500
200

25
Brigham Young University
164.5
3.690
150

26
Cardozo Law School/Yeshiva University
164.0
3.500
250

Emory University
164.0
3.550
250

28
Washington & Lee University
164.0
3.530
150

161 is the gay student who said he was "assaulted" so the W&L administration would get him into Georgetown.

If it were not for AIPAC, BC would be T5. No questions asked.

When you are in this range just go to the school that is in the area that you want to practice. If you want to live in CA, go to USC. If you want to live in Boston, go to BU. It is ridiculous to pay attention to a few spots on US NEWS because it just doesn't matter in real life. Location does matter because everyone likes to think that their local school produces the best students because...well...it is the local school.

142- as an emory undergrad alum with knowledge of the law school, I agree that the depth of emory's class is what separates it from uga. i'd also say that u[sic]ga law school is horribly underrated and that the gap between emory and uga is quite small. that's not to say emory is overrated, it isn't. instead, i think u[sic]is a few slots too low, probably because they are affiliated with u[sic]ga in general, which cannot help anyone's reputation.

111- yes, emory is in decatur. but you've obviously never been there if you think it is in a bad part of decatur. it's in the druid hills neighborhood, right next to the va highlands. druid hills is a very nice neighborhood. but you wouldn't know that. you probably listen to all the other rap songs about the other part of decatur that fratty boys at u[sic]ga are inclined to take as gospel. you think suburbia is where its at, and that athens is cool. as one of my friends at emory law once said, if the world need an enema, athens is where you would put the plug. so if you like dingy bars, the ugliest girls at any sec school, and a campus where 1/3 of the undergrads major in home economics, athens might be the scene. its a shame the the law school in athens is affliated with the university.

169/179: I will end you if you do that again.

163: That is ridiculous. Sending tweets should be fine as long as you include the standard legal disclaimer that the information is not subject to attorney-client confidentiality.

for Wash U to ever make a rise, its employment numbers have to improve: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

Placing a bundh of people at toilet firms in the midwest is no achievement.

179: What's your point? Interesting data, but I'm not getting the res ipsa you obviously intend to be sending. GWU is top 20, based on student body? Are you responding to 112 and proving 112 wrong? Neither? Both. Explain, plz.

for Wash U to ever make a rise, its employment numbers have to improve: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

Placing a bundh of people at toilet firms in the midwest is no achievement. Look at its rankings among lawyers/judges. Note even close to higher schools'.

Elie you should be more careful. Please leave my religion alone. I don't think Netflix and your other corporate sponsors would continue their relationship with this site if they found out about your hate speech.

Elie you should be more careful. Please leave my religion alone. I don't think Netflix and your other corporate sponsors would continue their relationship with this site if they found out about your hate speech.

184, stop being so miserable. It's a casual discussion board, not an AIPAC board of directors meeting.

To all the retarded BC gunners clogging up the comments section:

I'm sorry you didn't get into a good school. BU has been ahead of you for a while, this ranking should not have come as a surprise.

And to 31-- I like the convenience of adding T in front of whatever the rank of your school is. Maybe the BC kids should start calling themselves T-26.

Love,
Everyone

Elie you should be more careful. Please leave my religion alone. I don't think Netflix and your other corporate sponsors would continue their relationship with this site if they found out about your hate speech.

Elie you should be more careful. Please leave my religion alone. I don't think Netflix and your other corporate sponsors would continue their relationship with this site if they found out about your hate speech.

GP23 likes Vanderbilt, so it's good enough for me too.

The funny thing about WashU is that you should not go to school there if you want a job in St. Louis.

The firms here have their heads stuck up the ass of Saint Louis University Law.

The top STL firms have almost exactly the same recruiting requirements (class rank, law review, etc) for WashU students as they do for SLU students. Even though a student in the bottom 50% of the class at WashU would easily be a top 15% of the class student at SLU.

All you Vanderbilt students claim to have NYC and DC job opportunities but LSAC says 22.8% of your grads are employed in Tennessee. Seriously-how many make it out of the south? Most people don't dream of working with inbreds when they graduate from law school.

85/92,

Compare Vandy and UVa. I went to UVa and feel much the same way. However, without a competing factor, e.g., more money from Vandy, i can't see why one would choose the lower ranked version of two seemingly similar schools.

I did not apply to Vandy, but all the girls I have ever met from the undergrad were pretty attractive. If that was the deciding factor, I could understand it . . . maybe not agree with it, but I can see your logic.

189, this is 184. I can be miserable if I want to be -- I'm stuck in the library studying for exams on this gorgeous day.

These rankings are useless. ND vs. Indiana vs. Minnesota: if you want to practice in Minnesota then definitely go to Minn over the others. If you want to practice in Indiana then Indiana U. is a great choice. ND is better than these if you want a more national name and great alumni to help you. If you want to work in DC, then go with GW...Georgia then Emory...i think you all get the picture by now.

So, any predictions on what will happen with GW? Has it found a new, permanent home in the rankings as a T30 school? Or will it manage to climb again? If so, how - by killing the PT program? By raising standards in the PT program? By reducing class sizes? Any clues?

All you Vanderbilt students claim to have NYC and DC job opportunities but LSAC says 22.8% of your grads are employed in Tennessee. Seriously-how many make it out of the south? Most people don't dream of working with inbreds when they graduate from law school.

To all the retarded BC gunners clogging up the comments section:

I'm sorry you didn't get into a good school. BU has been ahead of you for a while, this ranking should not have come as a surprise.

And to 31-- I like the convenience of adding T in front of whatever the rank of your school is. Maybe the BC kids should start calling themselves T-26.

Love,
Everyone

A W&M chick gave me AIDS. That is just very TTT if you ask me.

UVA2L

If you got into BC, you clearly got into BU. The schools are pretty similar in terms of placement, which is why we always say BU/BC. While BC has more "prestige," BU is still a quality school, as demonstrated by the US News ranking.

To all the retarded BC gunners clogging up the comments section:

I'm sorry you didn't get into a good school. BU has been ahead of you for a while, this ranking should not have come as a surprise.

And to 31-- I like the convenience of adding T in front of whatever the rank of your school is. Maybe the BC kids should start calling themselves T-26.

Love,
Everyone

Here are the Top Ten Reasons Northeastern is better than BU and BC, making all this Terriers versus Eagles talk a waste of time:

1) it is more expensive
2) it has far fewer class offerings
3) it has much less financial aid (which, of course, means only elite people go there)
4) it has a lightly renovated building from the 1960's that they call "new"
5) it has a career services office that specializes in drinking coffee and talking to each other all day instead of, you know, helping people find jobs
6) it consistently transforms a surprisingly high number of kids from Brown and Bowdoin who got 170's on the LSAT into unemployable wrecks
7) it has a mandatory co-op system where you can go be the ass-bitch for some family court judge or insurance defense firm
8) it games the system by saying it is a "public interest law school" while maintaining a $65k/year student budget and claiming the median starting salary is just under $90k
9) it is run by a bunch of 1960's Eugene McCarthy-era liberals who turn their courses into harangues about how pharmaceutical companies have a duty to give all drugs for free to everyone, or how every company should be forced to have union labor
10) it has no grades, no class rank, and no law review

Rank by Average of 75th/25th LSAT

Rank
School
Avg. of the 75th/25th
LSAT
Avg. of the 75th/25th GPA
Approx.
Class Size

1
Yale University
173.5
3.870
200

2
Harvard University
172.5
3.850
550

3
Columbia University
171.5
3.685
400

4
New York University
171.0
3.700
450

5 University of Chicago 171.0 3.625 200
6
Stanford University
169.5
3.845
200

7
Georgetown University
169.0
3.630
450
(day class only)

8
University of Virginia
169.0
3.690
350

9
Northwestern University
169.0
3.600
250

10
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
168.5
3.640
350

11
University of Pennsylvania
168.5
3.690
250

12
Duke University
168.5
3.715
200

13
Cornell University
167.0
3.660
200

14
University of California, Berkeley
166.5
3.770
250

15
University of California, Los Angeles
166.0
3.695
300

16
Vanderbilt University
166.0
3.685
200

17
University of Southern California
166.0
3.590
200

18
George Washington University
165.5
3.630
500

19
University of Texas, Austin
165.5
3.590
450

20
University of Notre Dame
165.5
3.580
150

21
Boston University
165.0
3.660
300


Fordham University
165.0
3.575
300
(day class only)

23
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
165.0
3.530
250

24
Washington University, St. Louis
165.0
3.500
200

25
Brigham Young University
164.5
3.690
150

26
Cardozo Law School/Yeshiva University
164.0
3.500
250

Emory University
164.0
3.550
250

28
Washington & Lee University
164.0
3.530
150

Here are the Top Ten Reasons Northeastern is better than BU and BC, making all this Terriers versus Eagles talk a waste of time:

1) it is more expensive
2) it has far fewer class offerings
3) it has much less financial aid (which, of course, means only elite people go there)
4) it has a lightly renovated building from the 1960's that they call "new"
5) it has a career services office that specializes in drinking coffee and talking to each other all day instead of, you know, helping people find jobs
6) it consistently transforms a surprisingly high number of kids from Brown and Bowdoin who got 170's on the LSAT into unemployable wrecks
7) it has a mandatory co-op system where you can go be the ass-bitch for some family court judge or insurance defense firm
8) it games the system by saying it is a "public interest law school" while maintaining a $65k/year student budget and claiming the median starting salary is just under $90k
9) it is run by a bunch of 1960's Eugene McCarthy-era liberals who turn their courses into harangues about how pharmaceutical companies have a duty to give all drugs for free to everyone, or how every company should be forced to have union labor
10) it has no grades, no class rank, and no law review

180

If you knew anything about W&L, you would instantly recognize who I am from my moniker and realize that I cannot be the fruit that was assaulted. I spent my days at W&L pillaging at Sweet Briar where I gained considerable notoriety. I simply cite the incident as an example of the administration's incompetence.

-Fugitive From Justice

Wow, Fugitive from Jusice, what T-6 was lucky enough to land you? Just a few of the blatant either untruths or asinine remarks you made:

-"Undeserving minorities": I'm sure you know the circumstances of each minority applicant and whether they "deserved" admission better than the administration does.

-Small class size does not equal gaming the rankings. It recognizes the advantages of a small student-faculty ratio (better relationships with professors, smaller class size, etc.) as well as the limitations of the school's facilities.

-"most of the faculty left" after a gay student was "assaulted." Wow, where to begin: any faculty departures (which are nowhere even approaching "most of the faculty"; maybe 5-10% over the past two years) were far more likely related to not wanting to be part of the 3d year plan than this "incident"--which was this: the gay guy (who was nice when sober, but a jerk when drunk) instigated a fight with a fellow law student. Coincidentally, two local townies slashed the soft-top roof of the gay guy's Miata, and everyone jumped to conclusions that it must have been the clan or something.

-W&L undergrad is better represented here than any other undergrad, with the possible exception of UVA.

I'm not sure why you're bitter when you (supposedly) got into a great school, but your post is woefully inaccurate. Those are just a few items of misinformation; I could continue for several more paragraphs if I had the time or inclination.

W&L/SMU, have given me a secure job in biglaw (LockeLord) and a very high quality of life.

Quit it with all of the W&L talk. You are all idiots.

Tulane > Vanderbilt.

Elie:

Your religious bigotry is truly astounding. For the sake and respect of your readers, please keep this senseless garbage to yourself.

For someone who claims the authority to "moderate" comments that are "hidden for our protection," and who regularly preaches "tolerance" to those "bigots" who disagree with you on things like the gay marriage debate, your religious bigotry that you try to mask as humor is beyond hypocritical.

It is tasteless, bland, and sophomoric.

Grow up.

168, no need to explain to 128. They're just pissed that ND football continues its free fall to the point where the Big 10 wouldn't take them if they begged.

I've been to South Bend. I don't care what their SCOTUS rates are, I'd throw myself off a bridge before I went there for law school. Any reasonable person (read: non-douchebag) would go to Northwestern/Michigan/Minnesota/Iowa/Indiana/Wisconsin/Illinois before they considered ND.

Well, maybe not Northwestern or Michigan...bunch of douchebags there, too.

If you got into BU, you probably got into BC as well. These schools are fairly similar which is why we always say BC/BU when refering to the schools. While BC has a slightly better reputation and placement statistics in BigLaw, the schools are practically the same (not taking into account environment and student body).

The schools should be grouped as so:

Group 1:
UT
USC
UCLA
Vandy

Group 2:
GW
Emory
BC
BU

Group 3:
Washington (St. Louis)
Minnesota
Indiana
Illinois
Notre Dame
Iowa
William & Mary

LOL, this thread has a lot of insecure UGA students/grads. UGA is good state school in a fun college town. If someone knew they wanted to stay in Georgia and could get in-state tuition it would be a strong choice. However, it is not a top school and it will never be a "semi-national" school like the schools in this thread, perhaps because UGA people love broadcasting the fact that they "Hate dem Nordeners" and this hurts recruiting quality applicants.
- Emory 3L

It's cute to see all the BC kids furrowing their brows and struggling in vain to put together coherent sentences. Remember not to go outside without your helmets and swimmies on, it's a big scary world out there.

How long until BC is jumped by Northeastern? WNEC Law? Massachusetts School of Law?

164, I really like W&L. The people there are great, and the small class size is a bonus, but to say that W&L is on par with UVA is just not true. That is not to take anything away from W&L, but be honest with yourself. Where would you rather be studying? What would you rather have on that diploma hanging on your wall?

216: Seriously? That's the worst grouping I've ever seen. Look at this page: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

From this, the schools should be grouped

Group 1:
Vandy
Fordham
BU
BC
Notre Dame

Group 2:
Wash U
Texas
Illinois
GW

Group 3:
UNC
Emory
W&M
USC

188: So, your point is that Wash U, while ranking 19th by USNEWS, is only ranked 21st by NLJ250 placement? Noted.

Haf you theen my baithball?

- BC 3L

I would rather have a madras styled, mint julep stained JD than one from some festering cesspool like W&L.

"catholic" schools these days have nothing to do with religion

211

I admire that you are coming to the defense of this TTT which you likely attend. However, my statements are an accurate perception of law school over the past decade.

- I say undeserving minorities because that's what they are. Look at W&L undergrad and you'll realize that W&L Law wouldn't take a single minority if they didn't have to and if it didn't help them in the rankings.

- Small class size may have its advantages, but it's certainly not why W&L has a small class. Attend any law school admissions presentation. They openly admit they have a small class size to game the rankings. They use scholarships from undergrad tuition revenues to lure away splitters who got into Duke, Vandy, or UVA etc. without any aid. That's a fact and it is openly admitted by the administration

- W&L Law for many years didn't have a student from W&L undergrad. The students who attend W&L are most splitters who went to SUNY Albany or the equivalent state school. The deans at the law school admit to shitting on the undergrad students as represented by maybe 1 or 2 undergrads per class attending the last two years.

Simple fact, W&L is a shithole. It is finally getting the recognition it deserves with its slide in the rankings.

-Fugitive From Justice

225: Tru dat. It's unfortunate.

for Wash U to ever make a rise, its employment numbers have to improve: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

Placing a bundh of people at toilet firms in the midwest is no achievement. Look at its rankings among lawyers/judges. Note even close to higher schools'.

"catholic" schools these days have nothing to do with religion

Notre Dame should move its law school to Chicago. Cornell is moving its to NYC. This would immediately catapult it into T14.

228, stop being an idiot. That chart tracks the Class of 2005. Even USNews gets data more recent than that.

Wash U should be in top 10 if not top 5.

Vandy Varies Vicariously, Vacillating Votes Very Volatilely

Are Wash U's employment numbers going to have to improve for it to ever rise?

Emory needs to out; we gained 10 spots on them this year. :)

-GSU student with an LSAT score over Emory's 75th percentile

228: How does the data on that page lead to your conclusion? Please explain. Wash U is ranked 21st on placing grads into NLJ 250 firms.

As a Georgian, an Emory 3L and an alumnus of UGA, I can honestly say that I have never heard people at UGA badmouth Emory or vice versa until reading these comments. Both are excellent law schools - both are in beautiful communities.

Illinois grad to GW alums - suck it punks.

Fugitive from Justice (FFJ) = PE = sub-100 IQ

Wash U and USC don't measure up to their US News numbers in the Vault rankings. Very expensive rich kid schools that try to buy establishment prestige. Going to one of them over a T1 U of My State is just flat stupid.

And re: 215, the reasonable person Midwest schools are

Minnesota/Iowa/Indiana/Wisconsin/Illinois

Northwestern and Michigan are different animals. Of the five listed Big 10 schools, there is no difference whatsoever other than local market. They're all gold in their state, good in the region, can normally go to the coasts if you are Top 10%/LR.

Illinois manipulates their ranking a bit more and Iowa has comparatively no local market. That's about it.

I didn't realize the amount of hatred on this board for Washington and Lee. I am truly shocked.

LockeLord for Life

228: you also have bad breath

219-

Since Northeastern has fallen 17 points in the last five years and is perilously close to becoming third tier and to being ranked lower than the retarded undergrad university for the first time ever, BC is safe.

The funny thing about WashU is that you should not go to school there if you want a job in St. Louis.

The firms here have their heads stuck up the ass of Saint Louis University Law.

The top STL firms have almost exactly the same recruiting requirements (class rank, law review, etc) for WashU students as they do for SLU students. Even though a student in the bottom 50% of the class at WashU would easily be a top 15% of the class student at SLU.

W&L is a good school, but it's not on par with UVA.

Check out these rankings: www.aipac.org

225: Do you know what a non sequitur is?

This is why the legal profession is on the decline -- douchebags spend all their time whining about how great their school is instead of doing something that might make a dollar someday.

Guess what? Nobody cares where you went to school, where you got in, and how much scholarship money you got. Unless you went to more than one law school, it's nonsensical to think that you can compare your school to another based on "good"ness (i.e., [School] is a "good school").

Isn't there someone here with something better in their lives than being ahead of Emory or GULC or wherever?

Prestige whores at it again. Who cares?

Wash U has a lot of ground to cover before it can really rival the tops of the usnews rankings. Currently their biggest obstical is developing a reputation outside of the midwest. Wash U is truly a great school in many facets - there is no reason that it can't be a great law school one day either (it's just going to take a little time and work).

the question shouldn't be GW vs. W&M, it should be GW vs. W&M vs. GMU.

$18,732 in state, $31,948 out of state...10 grand cheaper and in DC during the school year vs. W&M and over a 50% savings in tuition vs. GW.

That's worth 13 ranking points to some.

248: Everyone here is ahead of GULC. It's impossible not to be.

-UVA 2L

151: What's with all the smack talk about Alabama? Quality of jobs v. placement rate? That some kind of veiled reference to BIGLAW placement? BIGLAW doesn't seem all that great now does it.

GW's reputation has fallen because so many of its students have taken to the Internet to bash better law schools. GULC-envy doesn't cut it.

Ellie, fuck you. Why the hell are the US news rankings an excuse to insult Catholics. It's unseemly.

THE ONLY schools worth going to on this list are:

USC
GW
William & Mary
Notre Dame

(in that order based on job opps and location)

Went to W&M. Williamsburg sucked, but many students took externships during the school year in Richmond or D.C. I had an externship during the second semester of my 2L year and drove up to D.C. every Thursday night, spent Friday working, then partied on the weekend in D.C. My 2L summer was in NYC.

W&M is well respected on the East Coast, especially in D.C., New York, Baltimore and Philly. In Richmond and Hampton Roads area, W&M is definitely viewed more favorably than UVA or W&L.

Because of the price, congenial environment, personal attention, great professors who are consistently lured away to T14 schools and easy access to major markets on East Coast, W&M is a little-known bargain in legal education. Every year it becomes harder to get into the school as more students find out about it.

#25 - Wow....sorry to see you are such an unhappy person. Maybe you should have gone to a better school in a nicer location or something?!? I am neither a frat boy/sorority girl, but a New England boarding school bred ivy leaguer who got a great job at a top Big Law Firm. Vanderbilt is light years ahead of Emory, which all of us who went to Vandy can attest to since we got into Emory without even trying with tons of scholarship money. Try not to be so bitter that Vandy rejected you.

IT'S NOT JUST CATHOLICS!

It's also still okay to make fun of Mormons. Just wait until Romney runs again. The media will constantly question it, even though they NEVER focused on Obama's muslim upbringing....

How is W&M on this list?

Wow, ND has taken quite a hit in the few years since I was there. I think it was at 17 when I started. I think that's got to be largely because they let their LLM program fall apart after losing a few bigshots. They used to have one of the best human rights LLM/JSD programs, but now it's pretty much gone.

They'll be back though. They're changing deans, and they just built a new law school. But anecdotally, I've heard that their placement rates have taken a huge hit this year.

Also, the idea that ND has this amazing alumni network is a bit of a myth, at least outside of the midwest. If you want people to drink beer and watch bad football, then you're set. But for worthwhile networking purposes (i.e., getting a job!), I didn't find the ND alumni network to be very helpful when I got laid off last fall.

Wow, ND has taken quite a hit in the few years since I was there. I think it was at 17 when I started. I think that's got to be largely because they let their LLM program fall apart after losing a few bigshots. They used to have one of the best human rights LLM/JSD programs, but now it's pretty much gone.

They'll be back though. They're changing deans, and they just built a new law school. But anecdotally, I've heard that their placement rates have taken a huge hit this year.

Also, the idea that ND has this amazing alumni network is a bit of a myth, at least outside of the midwest. If you want people to drink beer and watch bad football, then you're set. But for worthwhile networking purposes (i.e., getting a job!), I didn't find the ND alumni network to be very helpful when I got laid off last fall.

Where is PE? Guess he really is Lat.

Criticize all you want but there is at least one reason why these rankings are very important: helping prevent (most) UGA students from suffering from delusions of their school being in any way comparable to Emory or any other T25.

I'm a 2L at GW on full tuition scholarship, and actually got paid $1500 a month my first year for rent by the school. I don't regret my decision to attend for a second, even though I could have gone to Duke. The school is great, I have an awesome summer job lined up, and am graduating with 0 debt. In this economy, it turns out I couldn't have made a better decision regardless of if we are ranked 20 or 28. It just doesn't matter. It's still a great school, and an incredible education.

elie, you are a filthy c-unit and your catholic bashing is lame. ask the big firms in boston if BU "pwns" BC. you're clearly just drumming up a strong reaction instead of providing valuable input. drop dead.

BC produces the best worker's comp attorneys!

man, i would hate to be at BC. so defensive and insecure!

128 -

Notre Dame's law review is ranked below that of all but one of the schools you mock...

See http://lawlib.wlu.edu/LJ/index.aspx

265, see 248.

Thx

"owww. What's with all the lightning strikes?"

You are confusing the Pope with Martin Luther.

In the past 7 years, GW has had 6 SCOTUS clerks. That does not sound like a school ranked 28th.

As for W&M versus GW, GW Law has an amazing network outside of the DC area. I, along with many of my fellow alums, work at a V10 firm.

It's not the fault of day students that the part-time students were admitted before the school knew that US News would look at their numbers.

American WCL is moving on up!

ON the eastside!

It's finally gonna see a piece of the pieeeee!

270- 248 actually proves my point.
-265

272,

In the past 5 years, UGA has had 5 SCOTUS clerks. That does does sound like a school ranked 35th.

I'm not Catholic (or even religious), but comparing the Pope to Hitler is repugnant. I wonder how Lat is going to feel when he finds out that Elie decided to put his livelihood at risk with this unprovoked bigotry.

I don't think WashU has ever placed a SCOTUS clerk. Ever.

I LOVED my experience at Vandy and even in the middle of the class ended up with my dream job. What could be better than a great law school in a great city with a reasonable cost of living?

I would also like to express my indignation towards Elie and his anti-Catholic comments. I am not Catholic, but I have attended Catholic schools. They provide an excellent education. Comparing the Pope in any way to Hitler demonstrates the incompetence by the author. Cracking jokes about a religion in such a way is not funny, but is a display of bigotry.

Elie is a fat fucking sloth. His ignorance and lack of intellectual capacity is astounding. He boasts that he received a Harvard education, but we all know that he is a prime example of affirmative action. Some people can't cut it and don't have the intelligence to form a rational thought. My previous statement describes Elie to a tee.

Elie, you sir, are a disgrace to the legal profession and your lack of intelligence is abundantly apparent.

BU has far better national placement than BC, this is a fact. As far as Boston is concerned, they are about the same. BU is also known for having excellent professors (Princeton Review), while BC, not so much. Also, BU gives much more financial aid to it's students, thus causing higher quality students to go there because it's cheaper, thus making BU have better students, just check the numbers.

AIPAC got me my clerkship.

265,

Define "awesome job". Biglaw or US attorneys' office?

BA from GW, JD from W&M. After 4 years there, I was sick of Foggy Bottom.

At W&M, I interviewed with a dozen or so biglaw firms on-campus. That's when I figured out that I wasn't nearly masochistic enough to want a biglaw career. And the lower debt load that resulted from going to a public law school (qualified for in-state after my first year) meant that I could take a government job that makes me much happier than the biglaw sausage factory would.

Wash U offered huge scholarships to take candidates away from GW when I was applying. I still went to GW over Michigan and GULC, without any scholarship. The education I received was priceless. I am now very happy at a V20 firm in NYC.

US News has never been that fond of George Washington University. The undergraduate program is considered a peer of Syracuse and U Miami in the rankings, when everyone knows that isn't true.

The thing to remember is that once you get out of the top 10 schools, geography really starts to matter for job placement. If you want to work in VA you should go to W&M. If you want to work in DC you should go to GW.

And I don't think comparing the Pope to Hitler is at all over the line. I wonder how many people have died of AIDS because of the Catholic Church's opposition to condom use. Grow up people. You should of stopped believing in this nonsense when you turned 6.

279 (Fugitive from Justice)--

Though I can't comment on his admittance into HLS, Elie's ATL job isn't a product of affirmative action.

We voted him into this, remember?

Even if you somehow make the argument he didn't deserve his HLS degree, you can't make the argument that he doesn't deserve this job.

Oh, by the way, I know that you werePartner Emeritus. Get sick of that identity?

lol @ Fugitive from Justice concerned about the assault and battery of gay law student while simultaneously railing against so-called "undeserved minorities." Sounds like a bitter W&L reject

UVA law grad, so no dog in this fight, except to say that I practice with a lot of Emory law grads here in Atlanta and think they are fine lawyers. And Emory is a gorgeous campus located in a fabulous area of town -- Va Highlands/ Druid Hills/ Decatur. Hard to think of a better location in Atlanta. So count me as another disagreeing with the comments posted by a few Emory haters.

You're comparing the pope to Hitler? How do you expect to back that up?

This article is disgusting.

By the way, Miss Ignorance, Jesuits are some of the most liberal free-minded Catholics out there. Try taking a class with a Jesuit professor, then you can talk about Jesuits.
In addition, many of the professors at the Law school are Jewish (hence, the law school gets Jewish holidays off that the undergrad school doesn't). Would you care to admit that you're insulting them, too? Calling them bad teachers?
BC professors are far more accomplished than you could ever hope to be.

And I would like to highlight something that another user mentioned earlier. When it comes to getting hired by a big law firm, BC Law grads have a lot more pull than BU Law grads. Not only is a degree from Boston College highly respectable, but BC graduates have the advantage of well-connected and proud alumni.

Next time, please do your research (I guess you failed legal research and writing) and try to write an intelligent article.
As any person with half a brain knows, you can not accept rankings to correctly portray who is "the best." Not only is "the best" a subjective term, but strengths and weaknesses constantly change. Does every highly ranked team in the NCAA tournament win a game over a lower-ranked team? Can a contribution margin correctly portray which division of a company performs better than the next? No. That is why you can not bash schools for simply having a lower ranking. Rankings don't matter; there is a lot more behind the schools.

I apologize for going off-topic--I just had to point out that this Catholic-bashing is coming from a very ignorant person.

I am a 2008 GW Law graduate. Do not go there unless you have a strong technical background in a marketable field and you know for sure you want to do IP.

I don't have the luxury of assuming that number of SCOTUS clerks is a good indication of student's abilities to get good paying jobs. Its just not the case.

I'm about to graduate from Vandy, am going to Chicago, and got offers from every big firm that I interviewed with.

I really enjoyed my experience and am glad I chose Vandy over some T14 schools. I've had as much fun in law school as I had in undergrad.

286

I did not vote for Elie. I was note aware of this website when the competition was held so you have me there. My point is that Elie pulls the Harvard card quite often on this blog as a sign of his intelligence. However, anyone with a modicum of intelligence realizes what a putz he is merely from trying to decipher his writing. The only reason he has a degree from Harvard is due to liberal affirmative action policies where undeserving individuals like himself are granted admission for the sake of "diversity."

287

I'm not concerned at all about the assault on the the gay student. It is my opinion that if the individual was not open in his homosexual ways, then he wouldn't have been in the situations. I am ardently against homosexuality. My point, which I failed to articulate, was that the way the administration handled the incident caused the dean and great faculty members to leave for other institutions. That was my only point and I apologize for not communicating it effectively.

GW Law gets about $75,000 per year from AIPAC. That is the only reason it is in the top 30 at all.

Did you pop your collar and discriminate against minorities just like you did in undergrad, as well, 292?

GW is

1) T15-17 in FT median LSAT / GPA (167 / 3.75), and

http://www.princetonreview.com/schools/law/LawBasics.aspx?iid=1035863

2) T18 in FT NLJ250 placement

http://128.164.132.16/Portal/Announcements/details.aspx?id=5817

that's it; end of story. USNWR is a joke (and any W&M v. GW, Iowa v. GW comparison, etc. is too)

employers will continue to recruit from the top 35-40% of the class. W&M? yeah, try top 10-15% for th same job.

v&e hires lots of w&m and gwu grads. nuff said.

Man - the GW folks on here are a bunch of whiners. You fell a couple spots. Tough luck. If you think the evening students are dragging you down, make the admissions criteria more selective. If you can't do that and still have people attend, then pick what you think is more important - rankings or tuition revenue.

Whatever the decision, the nonstop whining is getting old and makes you sound like a bunch of crybabies.

damnit the correct link:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

Current job openings at AIPAC if anyone is interested.

WAsh U's numbers (grades and LSATs) have to improve along with their placement, before their reputation scores will rise enough to lift their overall rank.

296 - not the end of the story. You still suck by USNWR standards, which happen to be more well-read. The other two sources you cite are only secondary source.

Face it - GW sucks. No amount of citing secondary sources will make that go away.

Wash U's numbers (grades and LSATs) have to improve along with their placement, before their reputation scores will rise enough to lift their overall rank.

At this point in the rankings, prospective students should consider alternatives to law.

Fugitive from Justice - 287 here. Please define the so called "undeserved minority" and explain how you know they supplant the "deserving majority" when it comes to law school admissions instead of (1) legacy admits (2) majority students with paper credentials less impressive than those of the "undeserved minority."

289--I don't think Elie is not ignorant. He probably knows that this post's reference to the post is offensive and not factually based. This is hate speech, which he would not tolerate if it was directed at a group that he favored. Elie is a silly, journalistically challenged, religious bigot.

306,

What you fail to realize is that Elie's comments are motivated by the group he belongs to: AIPAC.

289--I don't think Elie is ignorant. He probably knows that this post's reference to the Pope is offensive and not factually based. This is hate speech, which he would not tolerate if it was directed at a group that he favored. Elie is a silly, journalistically challenged, religious bigot.

Emory is an excellent school, but it's hardly impressive. I don't flinch if opposing counsel is an Emory grad, and I went to "lowly" Mercer.

Emory is ranked as high as it is in large part because it has the money to hire a full spate of professors with JDs from Harvard, Yale, and other T5 schools.

Emory isn't going to move up much higher unless it can convince (read: bribe) a lot more kids with 170+ LSATs to go there.

"BU has far better national placement than BC, this is a fact. As far as Boston is concerned, they are about the same. BU is also known for having excellent professors (Princeton Review), while BC, not so much. Also, BU gives much more financial aid to it's students, thus causing higher quality students to go there because it's cheaper, thus making BU have better students, just check the numbers."

LOL. I didn't go to either school, but if you swap BC for BU, this is probably more accurate. But seriously, who cares? I'd rather hear about GW students scared about a meaningless rankings drop.

164,

I know several people who transferred from W&L to UVA. How many do you know that did the opposite?

W&L is a great school, but I disagree with you that it's on par with UVA.

Now GULC, that's a different story...

-UVA 2L

If the Catholic hierarchy weren't so prude and blind to the reality that guys just want to jerk off all the time, they'd probably fare better in compliment-to-insult ratio on the interwebs.

305

It is a proven fact that minorities have a much easier time in the admissions process than white students. Minorities admitted to law school with numbers well below the schools medians disenfranchise more deserving students. It has been well documented that these students cannot compete intellectually at top law schools and usually fester in the bottom 10%.

(1) I am a firm proponent of legacy admits. It builds the traditional and reputation of an institution.

(2) Paper credentials are not the name of the game in law school admissions. LSAT and GPA are the only factors for admission in the vast majority of cases which are the best predictors of success and work ethic. Thus, minorities with better "paper credentials" should never be admitted before "majority" students with higher intelligence as reflected by LSAT and GPA.

haha 302

facts are facts my friend and no amount of labeling will change the plain and simple reality that GW is t15-17 by median admit #ers and t18 by NLJ250 placement (class of '08)

i know it, you know it, and you can rest assured that employers know it.

p.s. 160k NYC beeeyoootccch (mature, i know) ;)

BTW, Elie is Catholic. He is making fun of his own religion, calm down.

313 aka Fugitive -- I find your position intriguing, what are your hard stats?

ATTN:

THE POPE = HITLER. K?>

Get the f over yourselves and stop being crybabies. Why can you hate gays and think that Jews are going to hell, but nobody can say bad word about you? Christ, you're almost as bad as the Muslims, getting in a tizzy whenever someone huwts your poor feewings. Sorry, but technically your Pope was indeed a Nazi.

164, W&L is the ugly retarded stepsister of UVA

164, W&L is the ugly retarded stepsister of UVA

164, W&L is the ugly retarded stepsister of UVA

Fugitive from Justice is just another whiny, "subjugated," conservative white male who didn't get into the college and law school he felt entitled to attend and didn't get an offer from his top-choice firm. Boo-hoo, Fugitive. Tissue?

309, if where the opposing counsel went to law school is something that would make you "flinch," you are on par for the caliber of litigator a mercer grad should be.

317--don't hate gays, don't think Jews are going to hell. I don't think gays are just getting their 'feewings" hurt when they the subject of ridicule, just as I dont think Catholics are getting their "feewings" hurt when the Pope is compared to Hitler.

317, Hitler youth is not the same thing as a Nazi, he never espoused the ideologies. Moreover the Catholic doctrine does not hold that gays and Jews are going to hell. The idea that every other religious is going to hell because they are wrong was abandoned years ago. Moreover the Church teaches that homosexual acts are a sin but being a homosexual is not, in and of itself, a sin. I understand that the differences might be subtle but if you concentrate really really hard even someone like you can understand, maybe.

W&L probably is getting a bad rap right now with the 3L thing. That said, they apparently had a tough time getting kids last year (current 1Ls), presumably since Emory et al. are throwing around their endowments. As for it being the ugly cousin, or whatever, of UVA, yes and no. The comparison is closer for the law schools than the undergrads (undergrads, while both fratty douches, aren't really comparable (many many in-staters choose W&L over UVA, but obviously not vice versa)). W&L's facility is ugly as hell, as I remember. Lexington is much prettier than Charlottesville, though (and that's saying something).

Don't care if Elie is a gay, Catholic, who converted to Judaism. That doesn't give him permission to compare members of any of those groups to Hitler, especially when the humor is not obvious.

#324:

317 here. Except when da pope reinstated a bishop who was excommunicated for denying the Holocaust (and then had the audacity to feign ignorance) and refused to go to a Holocaust museum because it detailed how one of his predecessors played a role in the Holocaust.

But that's completely beside the point. The point is, so what, some people don't like your religion and don't like the Pope. Get over it. Just like you have the right to believe in a space ghost that created everything, so too they have the right to think that you're batshit crazy and that your leaders are evil. The point is stop bitching and moaning because someone said something nasty about your religion...

277, we've had one, whatever it's worth.

Re. Wash U/Vandy- Wash U may have taken Vandy's dean, and that may be a coup for Wash U, but it's completely inaccurate to put the Career Services staff in the same league. The people in the CSO are nice and are reasonably good at their jobs, but they will not catapult Wash U up the rankings.

303: I think that's an accurate assessment, but I don't know how or whether Wash U goes about doing that. I see two problems:

1) It's tough to get people who are not from the midwest to look at Wash U, because St. Louis is a crappy town. I love Wash U and do not regret my decision to come here, but St. Louis sucks. My sense is that Wash U has a fair number of students who have the qualifications to get a Biglaw job but choose to stay closer to home instead. When you buy a house, you buy for location because you can't change location, and the same is true of Wash U. No amount of money can change the location.

2) My sense is that the bottom of the class here is inferior to the bottom of the class at our peer schools-- there seems to be a much bigger intelligence gap between the top and the bottom. That doesn't hurt your chances of landing a decent job if you are in the top 1/3 or top 10%, but it does hurt averages, and averages matter in the rankings.

Those two issues are really tough problems to fix.

If Catholics can be intolerant of gays, then gays can be intolerant of Catholics.

And 324: the specious reasoning of "it's only a sin when they act on their natural, biological desires as a human being" has also been abandoned by sensible, tolerant people, long ago.

321

I attended W&L undergrad which was my top choice school. I am now at a T6 law school which a V5 offer. My identity should be easy to discern so you can confirm these stats. Your theory has just been shat upon.

321

I attended W&L undergrad which was my top choice school. I am now at a T6 law school with a V5 offer. My identity should be easy to discern, so you can confirm these stats. Your theory has just been shat upon.

325 - you are on drugs. I grew up in VA, and had a choice undergrad and grad to go to W&L or UVa - ended up going elsewhere both times - but I NEVER would have dreamed of going to W&L over Virginia either time (and no one in their right mind would) - W&L is an inferior school, in the middle of no where, and saying Lexington is prettier and a better town than Charlottesville (constantly ranked as one of the best places to live, most beautiful campuses, etc etc) is ridiculous. Have you ever been either place?

Where else but Georgetown can you take a small seminar class with the Deputy Solicitor General (or the new Principal Deputy Solicitor General), or former advisors to the National Security Advisor? I.e. the adjunct faculty alone justify GULC's ranking. Where else can you walk down the street to hear oral arguments at the Supreme Court? Not to mention the internship opportunities and CLINICS, which, along with NYU's, are undeniably unparalleled. The facilities are state of the art, too, including the mock-Supreme Court, where you can hear HALF the Supreme Court docket get mooted. I agree there are some desperate fratty tools at Georgetown, but I bet those are at all the top schools. It's probably true that Georgetown attracts a lot of tools, but not because they're getting rejected from other schools -- rather, it's because DC attracts policy wonks and politicians-to-be, and those folks are, well, toolish.

If anything, it's ranked too low.

317 and 329-- you guys would have loved Rwanda in 1994.

257- Sorry man, but W&M is not better than UVA or W&L in Richmond or Hampton Roads. The comparison to UVA is really pretty laughable.

Primary entertainment here is watching all these TTTs attempt to justify their existence. (Do us a favor, Eli, and stop the rankings threads here. Do it for the children.)

Next best is hearing Vanderbilt people try to maintain their image of themselves as being better than 17. (To be fair, they're not too bad.)

And second runner-up goes to UGA kids trying to convince (us? themselves?) that they're more prestigious than Emory kids (if "prestige" is even the right word). Sorry attempts to preserve your self esteem by convincing yourself that you're 'at the top of a niche market': priceless. Better luck next time, fellas; hopefully you're at least fooling yourselves. ("Emory lawyers: great on the LSAT but pathetic in practice." A+ work, gents.)

(This last one also goes for "GSU" and "Mercer," neither of which I knew existed before perusing this mess. I actually googled "Mercer Law" to ensure that it exists. Sure enough.)

329,

"the specious reasoning of 'it's only a sin when they act on their natural, biological desires as a human being' has also been abandoned by sensible, tolerant people, long ago."

That is not true. Religion as well as society in general tells us to act in ways that are contrary to our biological predispositions all the time. And when we fall victim to our biological urges it is considered a sin (or a crime). For example, males have a general biological urge to procreate with as many women as possible, most organized religions tell us that this is wrong, and so does society. More over when someone has offended us it is our natural reaction to become violent (or at least it used to be, debates rage on as to whether or not our violent tendencies have been engineered out of us over generations) but most religions and societal norms tell us that, for the most part, such violent reactions are not ok. Just because you have a biological predisposition for something does not mean that doing it must automatically be acceptable behavior. The Catholic Church saying that a certain act is a sin regardless of why you want to commit that act is not out of line with all of the other restrictions imposed on us that are intended to temper our impulses and guide us into acting a certain way.

-324

Rank by Average of 75th/25th LSAT

Rank
School
Avg. of the 75th/25th
LSAT
Avg. of the 75th/25th GPA
Approx.
Class Size

1
Yale University
173.5
3.870
200

2
Harvard University
172.5
3.850
550

3
Columbia University
171.5
3.685
400

4
New York University
171.0
3.700
450

5 University of Chicago
171.0
3.625
200

6
Stanford University
169.5
3.845
200

7
Georgetown University
169.0
3.630
450

8
University of Virginia
169.0
3.690
350

9
Northwestern University
169.0
3.600
250

10
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
168.5
3.640
350

11
University of Pennsylvania
168.5
3.690
250

12
Duke University
168.5
3.715
200

13
Cornell University
167.0
3.660
200

14
University of California, Berkeley
166.5
3.770
250

15
University of California, Los Angeles
166.0
3.695
300

16
Vanderbilt University
166.0
3.685
200

17
University of Southern California
166.0
3.590
200

18
George Washington University
165.5
3.630
500

19
University of Texas, Austin
165.5
3.590
450

20
University of Notre Dame
165.5
3.580
150

21
Boston University
165.0
3.660
300


Fordham University
165.0
3.575
300

23
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
165.0
3.530
250

24
Washington University, St. Louis
165.0
3.500
200

25
Brigham Young University
164.5
3.690
150

26
Cardozo Law School/Yeshiva University
164.0
3.500
250

Emory University
164.0
3.550
250

28
Washington & Lee University
164.0
3.530
150

GWTIPPH GW THE IP POWERHOUSE GWTIPPH GWTIPPH

322: Give me a break; I was just illustrating a point. I will say that I have no problem dealing with pricks like you in the real world.

338 - why do we keep posting this?

332-
Have been to Lexington and C-Ville; Lex is a lot prettier, honestly. Certainly wouldn't call it the better town.

And personally know, shit, probably 6, at least 4 for sure, people who picked W&L over UVA undergrad. My sense was (is) that, while it wouldn't make sense for law school, it makes sense for college. Much different sizes, locales (realistically--mountain middle of nowhere vs. fun small town (city?), but that still presents a choice). Also different vibes, apparently (washlee perceived as even more greek-oriented, right?).

Anyhow, always made sense to me that, unlike law school, the undergrad decision wouldn't be a no-brainer.

Fugitive From Justice - 305 here. By "paper credentials," I mean LSAT and GPA for what it is worth. Regardless, I'd love to see those well documented, um, "studies" showing that "undeserved minorities" cannot compete intellectually at top law schools and typically wind up in the bottom 10%. Please link to them. Oh, and GREAT excuse for legacy admits. I mean who gives a shit if a legacy admit displaces a more deserving white boy, right? As long as it's not a black legacy admit though, huh? lol

Pity the poor, poor white man who's having an oh so difficult time in the world today. lol

University of San Diego, Huge Jump.

I know the reason why:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/is_your_law_school_just_like_y.php?show=comments#comments

Best Comment section on ATL ever.

342-
Lexington is basically one big pit stop for trucks on the I-81. You've got two blocks of walkable "historic" downtown after which you have Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Applebees, Ruby Tuesdays and a TON of crappy budget motels within a 10 minute walking radius.

Is it going to far to point out that UGA has homicidal professors?

338, you can't rank schools based on the average of the 25th and 75th LSAT and GPA percentiles, you dumb-ass. A school w/, say, a 25% LSAT of 165 and a 75% LSAT of 170 is going to admit a bunch of people based on their scores alone and a few people for other reasons - diversity, etc - i.e. the people admitted for their scores will have LSATs much closer to 170 than 165. You need to be ranking based on the median LSATs and GPAs, not your crappy average, you dumb tool.

As a WashU alum, I'm glad to see that it has firmly entrenched itself within the T20. It's three points below USC and three above the 20 schools. WashU's reputation has also increased since joining the T20 a few years ago. We'll see what the future holds.

That said, the school's placement is horrible. I was between the top third to top half of my class and CSO couldn't care less about me. Many of my peers found the folks at CSO to be lazy and oblivious. The school needs to work on its OCI firm numbers and work one-on-one with each student. Some schools' career service offices go to bat for their students, WashU's doesn't lift a finger.

As to the poster above talking about St. Louis, I agree that STL is primarily holding the schools back. But Michigan, Cornell and even Doook are not in really great locations either.

Thank goodness Dean Rubin is on his way out at Vanderbilt. He's so embarrassing.

343, (I'm new to this debate), I'm not against AA, but if I was black I'd be at Harvard, maybe Columbia, instead of USC. I mean, I'd be putting up with a lot of shit, because I'd be black, and that's probably not a bed of roses. But I'd be at frickin Harvard (with my numbers). So you'll excuse some general frustration on the part of my race now and then.

And re: "paper credentials," that term is sad for its transparent attempt to belittle the accomplishments of "objectively intelligent humans" and justify the preference for an AA candidate on "soft factors" or whatever. We're just playing with euphemisms, is what I mean. AA benefits applicants by, for all intents and purposes, adding invisible points to "paper credentials." You don't need to apologize for that; it's probably how it should be. But please don't suggest that, as a class of persons, people with 164s are on an equal intellectual playing field as people with 174s.

BU Law has been ranked higher than BC Law fo a number of years now. It's a little sad to read the BC comments bashing BU. Both are excellent law schools. BU has become more slelective, has an outstanding falculty, a Kick #@$ dean, a high bar pass rate and high job placement rate (before the economy tanked) and BU Law grads are very highly respected for thier skills and talents) The alum connection is strong. I thought BC was the "chill" law school- but reading some of the knee jerk comments here makes me think the stress of law shcool is getting to the Disneylanders too. Yeah, it's tough out there for all of us now- top 20 or not. BU has defintely earned at least 20- and will contine to be on the rise. Peace to the Jesuits!

343

As I stated with regard to paper credentials, the only thing that should matter for admission is LSAT and GPA. Thus, an applicant with sufficient LSAT and GPA should be admitted regardless of their race. I'm against minorities getting special treatment when their credentials are obviously inferior.

I never claimed to have "studies." All I have is anecdotal evidence. Credible academics dare touch such a well-know but dirty little secret in the admissions process. It is clear, however, that minorities who are admitted to schools with weaker credentials than the average student at the that school struggle.

I'm not having any difficulty in the world today. The world still favors white intellectuals like myself. I'm just sick of minorities getting every benefit of the doubt, but still using their race or gender as a crutch.

GW has a 3.8 Judge/Lawyer Assessment score and a Peer Assessment score of 3.5. I don't understand why the #28 rank is controversial when other law schools in that ranking band have similar assessment scores. Leaning on predictive indicators (LSAT/GPA) and a large alumni employer network have little to do with the actual quality of recent GW grads but assessment scores do. (see also Vault survey ranking of law schools for independent confirmation that GW lawyer quality).

Why all the W & L hating? It's not nice! Give points to W & L for trying something new, right? Before you criticize the bold 3L program, you should at least try to understand it:

http://www.law.wlu.edu/thirdyear/

Maybe it works, maybe it won't. If it does, W & L will be a T18 school.

wtf is a T18 school???????

345-
Right, which is why Lexington why it's not as cool, bar-wise etc, as Charlottesville. But it's just a prettier place, immediately surrounded by mountains, so forth. I don't know why I'm fighting about it, I've only been there twice. Last PR rankings I've found has W&L in top 20 beautiful campuses and no UVA. I mean, the point is moot. Just saying that you could prefer one to the other.

335 - not saying that W&M is better than UVA. Yes, UVA is a better law school. But UVA students tend to go out of state. The Richmond and Hampton Roads areas are crawling with W&M grads who will hire other W&M grads over UVA grads in a heartbeat.

335 - not saying that W&M is better than UVA. Yes, UVA is a better law school. But UVA students tend to go out of state. The Richmond and Hampton Roads areas are crawling with W&M grads who will hire other W&M grads over UVA grads in a heartbeat.

So many people have so much hate for other schools... I have never posted but can't believe the amount of insecurity that this blog creates.

A school can't be defined by a rank..all these schools have advantages and disadvantages based on what legal market or industry somebody wants to enter.

I do feel compelled to defend Emory, I go there and love it. Job prospects great in DC, NY, BOSTON, CHI and if you want to stay in Atlanta you are golden. Very high quality of life and a great faculty all around.

At the same time a school is what you make it.

WM peeps, is it just me or does the WL 3L program look like Legal Skills on steroids? I mean, FULL TIME Legal Skills....wow.
All I can say is--yikes

346- I guess since the UGA troll was reduced to arguing that Emory is in the "bad part of town" while men armed with assault rifles patrol his campus, its fair game...

Took Vandy over Northwestern, UCLA, Duke, Georgetown. Seriously considered Northwestern, but still couldn't pull the trigger after they matched Vandy's scholarship. My classmates and professors (other than adjuncts who are very hit-or-miss) are awesome. My education, between clinical opportunities and the law & business program, is giving me exactly the preparation I want for my career. And I've actually been happy, and enjoyed every day of my law school education. Rank that however you want to, but I'd take it over a pure prestige and pain pick any day.
I'm not arguing for a higher or lower rank, just putting that out there for people making their own decisions on law school. I will say that I was also impressed with the students at Northwestern, and they seem like a well-rounded bunch too. But Vandy's great, and I am neither Southern nor a frat boy nor even a very big drinker.

343: http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/SA.htm

359 - I don't know if you're golden in Atlanta, or anywhere for that matter. If you really go to Emory, you know just how tough the job market is for 2 & 3L's right now.

Just comparing schools on this list, you'd be foolish to take Emory over Vandy. However, if you want to work in the South, it's better than any school on this list, except for Vandy and maybe GW. It's much better than UGA. Job opps haven't been great recently at Emory, but that doesn't mean they're better at any of these other schools. Go to a T14 (preferably a T6) if you get in.

Took Vandy over GULC with equal money. Got in off UVA waitlist at last minute (ie after I had put my check in at Vandy) but graduating with 15k in loans looked a bit better than 100k+.

BEST F-ING DECISION in my life, from the debt perspective. I'm sure I would have had an equally awesome time at UVA, but Vandy was amazing. I'm from New England and only can say that I wish I'd gone south for UG.

I'm a mid-level assoc at a v50 in NYC. Dead level median, no journal, but a lot of great friends and stories to tell from law school. I am not unique as this seems to be the story of most of my friends. Thanks to minimal debt I've been saving like a champ so I'm set for at least a year or two in case the layoff scythe comes.

Vandy is vastly superior to any other law school in this bracket, humiliates UTTTAustin outside of TX, and certainly trumps UCLA everywhere except CA or the southwest.

We need better info on GW's fall recruiting "drop." Did less students receive screening interviews than peer schools? Or did students receive the same number of screening interviews but less callbacks and offers?

If the number of screenings dropped, that is GW-specific. If the number of callbacks and (especially) offers--compared to other schools--dropped, than that is student-specific. There is a huge difference . . .

I went to boston and it was great

Ellie!
Well done on exposing the menace of the POPISH PLOT! Often even my fellow Tories can forget the insidious horrors of ROMANISM! The heathen Irish hordes awash on our shores with their un-Godly faith must always be watched with a leery eye, lest they, with their priests and vile idolatry, manifest their ilk into the hideous form you so rightly identified:
NAZIS, riding on Dinosaurs no doubt.

good show you old tub of guts! rah!

I'll echo what others have said about Wash U. I went there a couple years ago, but I absolutely loved it there. I thought the school was great and actually liked St. Louis too.

I did pretty well and didn't have any trouble leaving the midwest. I currently work at a big firm in NYC. Not everyone had the same opportunities, but a couple years later everyone I know is making a good living, living in the city where they want to live and pretty happy with their job (to the extent any lawyers are happy).

Honestly, I didn't go to any other law school, so I can't tell you that wash U is better. But I can tell you that I was really happy in law school, and I don't think that would have been the case just anywhere. There's a really cool and friendly vibe at t eh school that makes it a really nice place to spend three years.

284- no one goes to Georgetown Waitlist over GULC (as they are both festering DC JD factories), unless GW coughs up a lot of money

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

no wonder people are miffed about W&L. nothing to do but get drunk, you get arrested for being responsible enought o walk home, and then kicked out of the law school (mandatory 6 mo suspension for any alcohol related offense)!

Typically one suspended from W&L on an alcohol related offense gets to spend that semester as a visiting student at UVA. It's a win.

370 - many students choose GW over GULC. Not everyone is willing to go to school across the street from a methodone clinic.

348 & 369- don't worry. WUSTL's new director of career services is an old vandy asst. admissions dean. there's hope for your school yet!

How is UCLA ranked above Vandy, USC, Emory and GW? UCLA = TTT

I went to UGA undergrad. I don't think anyone thinks it's more prestigious than Emory, but I still think it's a much better place to go school. Athens is way better than Decatur (even the nice parts of Decatur, which I'll admit are nice). UGA campus is way better, girls aren't even in the same league, people are nicer, very cheap to live and have a great time in Athens.

Emory is more "prestigious" (esp. if you want to go to NYC or DC) but it's not so prestigious that it's worth paying 3x more for.

Fair point about the homicidal maniac professors at UGA.

These are all good schools. You will get a quality education, and plenty of opportunities, if you go to any school on this list. That said, if you get in to a T14 school, you should go there.

382- unless it's GULC, then it's just killself

169: Your LSAT number for Emory is wrong.

What's GW doing in the same grouping as these quality institutions?

Fugitive From the Law - Is your name Fetter? You sound a lot like this guy from Emory undergrad...

Skipped out on Emory Law because I had been in Atlanta long enough, but Emory is a good school (as long as you can avoid all the obnoxious rich brats).

@ 101:

Re, your comment "The only V20 firm that doesn't recruit at Vandy is Cravath -- and people have gotten hired there by submitting apps directly."

How long ago was that? None of them appear to be there now.

HTH

It sucks that the top 20% of students at WashU has to compete for the same jobs as the top 20% of students from Saint Louis University.

The people at St. Louis law firms have no idea how much more competitive and intelligent WashU students are.

I transferred from GW to T10 and must say that it was the best decision of my life.

Cravath recruits at W&L's NY Job Fair (and hired 2 students each of the past two summers). Just sayin... ;-)

w&m has a brutal curve. i'd still go to gwu.

w&m has a brutal curve. i'd still go to gwu.

Elie you fat SOB, I didn't think you had it in you. You've taken on the Catholics, now you can go after the Muslims. I'm sure you will feel equally as free to insult their leaders. After all, they won't cut off your head or anyting.

101 - Wachtell (V1) recruits at 8 schools. Vandy is not one of them.

hi guyth igoh 2 BTHEE law thkooool. I m jist a one-ell tho i dont no hau 2 write gooder yet. i hopes i lern hau thoon tho.

I m happee now that i dint appplie 2 Fordum, GEE-W, oar WandL becuth now we r goodder ranked then themb.

I m thaprithed at hau much catholicks like the pohp. Its theems like ith a part uv thair religulon or thumthing. doth thith meen i can maik Obahmah johkth now¿

205 - I didnt get n2 BU becuth I applyd wen I wuz jrunk. I wuz jrunk becuth I hadnt hurd frum BTHEE yet. I m gladd thhat I hurd frum BTHEE wen I didd oar elth I mite havv aplyd 2 GULC.

207 - U fergot #11 - thay tuk thi naym uv a gud skule (i.e. Northwestern) annd chainged 2 ledders to konfuze p33pl. Thatth y I aplyd their.

O annd 280¿¿¿
I fink ur comma shuld bee a peeriod oar a themicolon or a kolon not a comma.

Thankth guyyth¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

Methinks Elie didn't get into George Washington. Why else the GW hate?

The BC/BU debate is really pointless now -- everyone that gets into BC gets into BU and vice versa. The point is how gaming the rankings actually WORKS. BU, by playing the numbers game, went from a clearly inferior school to a peer of BC. All it took was a quick jump in the US News rankings and BAM, the students follow and reinforce the ranking.

231--those are 2008 numbers. I guess lack of critical reading is why your washu is a toilet....

BU gets an inflated ranking because of a certain -- "demographic" that is influential in the legal community... shalom

BOLD PREDICTION:

GW will continue to free fall and settle comfortably in the T40s. It's like a snowball rolling downhill.

- Nostradamus

I'm not thin-skinned about these sorts of things, but when has it become OK to make a Nazi joke about the Pope? (Yes, I know he was compelled to be a member of the Nazi youth.) Would it also be OK to make Muslim jokes about President Obama?

Fugitive, you're a good reason not to even APPLY to W&L undergrad--the school is filled with spoiled rich kids with a sickening sense of entitlement, although I don't think even many of the undergrads share his Klannish mentality. The law school is probably less prestigious than the undergrad, but the vibe is far better.

I do have some issues with the administration, however. If you look at the chart posted by 186, you'll see a huge percentage of W&L grads' employment is reported as "unknown." That's ridiculous--track these kids down, most will be working somewhere. That's the one stat that always screws the school in the USNWR rankings, though this year the acceptance rate was just as bad.

And 371-76, that's misleading. Though the cops do have a reputation for being dicks, there have been fewer incidents the past 2 years with a new police chief. And the mandatory suspension is Virginia law, that applies to all Virginia schools, and is only for DUIs of .15 or greater--which is only going to catch the total dumbass, kill-somebody drunk drivers.

And the downtown is pretty, plus there's lots of outdoor stuff to do during the 8-9 months of the year when the weather's nice. I'm looking forward to moving to a real city though.

What's up with the sensitive Catholics in here? I mean, is this not the Pope that had to be publically flogged before admitting that allowing a Holocaust-denying bishop back into the fold was a bad idea?

Lighten up. You're embarrassing the rest of us Catholics who get the joke and realize the morons in Rome are making a mockery of our religion.

What if this really is the market correcting itself for GW?

It really is a JD factory. Time just caught up with the school. I don't see the school regaining it's previous place in the rankings.

402, doesn't drunk in public count too for the W & L university mandatory suspension policy? Isn't that beyond VA law? And isn't that a dumb ass policy? I walk home after a night out at the Palms, get busted, and face a semester as a visiting student somewhere? And a record, for bar and employers with the suspension on it? For walking home? WTF? A W & L law grad told me that W & L had a major problem with binge drinking among the undergrads, but that the university policy led a classmate to be suspended from the law school. . .

******************************

You're all a bunch of slaves.

******************************

403, since your obviously comfortable with your religious leader being compared to Hitler and have found the humor in that comparison, please explain it to the rest of us, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. We don't want to embarras you.

403 = Elie. And if you aren't, keep your "stop embarrassing us" line to yourself.

You are an embarrassment if you cannot recognize Elie's tasteless and unnecessary denigration of a religion that is often the target of the "enlightened" class.

284 = PROOF OF THE QUALITY OF GWU JDs

"The education I received [at GW] was priceless." In point of fact, it definitely had a price tag. One of the most expensive price tags. For any education. Anywhere. Have fun grinding to pay that off.

Nobody would choose GW over GULC unless you were adamant about IP or "government contracts," and even then... and no way would you choose GW over Michigan unless you were some festering douche who has never lived outside of the Mid-Atlantic/NE in his or her life. Michigan places leaps and bounds ahead of GW in DC and especially NY. Fact: GW has little to no brand recognition outside of Del-Mar-Va.

403, I will pay you $100 if you're a real Catholic. Tell me where you were baptized and took first sacrament.

409

Who gives a f*** about NY? Many of you discovery ass clowns are looking for work now, while the Del-Mar-Va crowd is still employed.

I am a real Catholic and I am offended by emails jab at the Holy Father.

I wonder if he would say something this vulgar about the Dalai Lama.

403 here. Do I really need to explain sarcasm and satire to everyone?

Lat,

There's an unfortunate theme about this blog. You know what it is? We blame Elie for being Elie. That's wrong of us. We should blame you instead. You're the boss, right?

The following are rules of polite society:

(1) Calling the pope a Nazi is offensive.
(2) Being Catholic yourself doesn't mean you offend Catholics less by doing this; it means you offend them more.
(3) When you do something wrong, you should apologize.
(4) You should apologize even if you made money by doing the thing that was wrong, for instance by generating internet hits.

And here's another. This blog is read mostly by lawyers--members of your profession. Your reputation with them should be important to you, not for the money it makes you, but for itself. Edginess is one thing; bigotry is another. Get it together.

This is the most constructive conversation I have been a part of.

410 here, 403, do I really need to explain the nuances of tone to convey sarcasm and satire? You're such a good writer (and evidently a devout Catholic), why don't you give us a lesson?

416, it's difficult to explain nuance to someone who doesn't already understand it.

386 - Ha, he actually does sound a bit like Fetter.

416, I see. I'm sure the consensus was wrong on your first moronic post and that it was actually an exercise in high satire instead of just a stupid, ill-received joke. It's not your poor writing or sense of taste that led to the misunderstanding, it's our lack of nuance. No need to explain at all.

There is a high number of comments...

Glad we're clear, 419.

The Revolution is almost upon us. We must remove the Politically Correct Neo-Nazis from our society. Once Their agenda and power merges with that of the Socialists, it might be too late...

-G. Wynand

Comparing the Pope to the Fuhrer? I've had enough of Elie's brainless posts, but this Catholic bigotry does it for me.

That's the last Elie Mystal post that I'm reading and if ATL doesn't address this incident then I'm done with ATL.

343 and 352-

I actually have data on how poorly minorities perform in law school:

Richard H. Sander, A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools, 57 STAN. L. REV. 367 (2004) (noting that nearly 50% of black law students are in the bottom 10% of their classes).

Holy crap a legal citation on a law blog??? Yes, believe it.

i'm feeling a vibe that the city of Williamsburg is a drag on W&M Law...i went there as an undergrad, and i can definitely say there's more than "two bars"....plus it's much closer to Va Beach than either UVA, W&L, GW, GULC, etc.

also, the students there didn't get a huge ego-boost from going to a top-tier school like they do at W&L, UVA, the Ivies,....or base the success of their lives on working for a BigLaw firm/equivalent....even though many of them end up doing just that anyway

the USC = rich-kid thing is really irritating. that stereotype holds true for many USC undergrads, who are often there on daddy's dime. but let's be honest, most law students attend either 1) the best school they can get into, or 2) the school that gives them the best scholarship. most USC Law students are either graduating with an absurd amount of debt and hoping they can get a half-decent job in a shit economy, or else they are there on a nice scholarship package. USC Law students are no richer than students at any other law school... if anything, they are graduating poorer.

425: Subtle W&L trolling

Post # 161, 165, 210, 330--

Every person I know that went to W&L for undergrad raves about it. Several logical conclusions can thus be made from your bitterness. (1) You are a douche; (2) If you were even IN a fraternity (unlikely) it was probably the worst one; (3) You were not one of the typical privileged students who attends W&L undergrad -- proven from your lack of character and class. You were probably an "outsider looking in" to the whole undergrad experience; and so you probably cannot appreciate how people are proud to say they went to there. I know upwards of 50 people who went there for undergrad, and not one of them has ever said anything bad about the institution beyond anything superficial. Saying there is a crappy night life is one thing. Saying the remarks that you made is quite another. In any event, anyone who picks a law school based on its social life has a serious problem with their priorities. And the fact that you did not attended W&L for law school gives your argument even less traction. Your words drip of bitterness and contempt. Clearly, your judgment is questionable.

I find it IRONIC that you said you went to "W&L for undergrad…and are now at a T6" (i.e., probably Chicago). There’s no such thing as a T6 – only T5 or T10. But do you think that you would even BE at a T6 without the brand recognition, prestige, and notoriety of Washington & Lee on your resume? My point is not that W&L was the only school that could vault you into your current situation; rather I question how you can bash the school which helped get you into (allegedly) a T6 school with (allegedly) a V5 offer. Your sense of entitlement is absurd. You should be grateful for having the opportunities that you do. In short, it is Poor Form.

And I love how you show concern for an incident you know NOTHING about and then shamelessly try and dismiss undeserving minority students. Is this really your argument!? Hasn't law school taught you anything about logical flaws? After reading irrational, woeful arguments like that, I find it doubtful that you have a V-5 job waiting for you, or that you are anywhere but the bottom of your law school class. Maybe THAT is why you are bitter, who knows.

You also CLAIM that the law school "TOOK a MAJORITY of the money FROM undergraduate revenues." By making such a statement like that, you LOSE the rest of what little credibility you had left. The school brings in about $70-80 million from undergraduate tuition revenues alone (not including meal plans, dorms, donations, investments, etc). So are you honestly saying that the lawschool TOOK upwards of $40 or $50 million FROM the undergraduate tuition revenue to put towards scholarships? Every law student would be going to school for free with, with a BMW to boot.

Your statements are laughable....Newsflash: A lot of the money for those generous scholarships which attract T-10 and/or minority students comes from TRANSFER students who pay FULL tuition and from DONATIONS to BOTH the "Law School" AND the "University." Indeed, some scholarship funds do come from the general university fund, but how is that different from any other institution in the country? Based on your DUMB logic, the hundreds of millions of dollars that College Football brings to Division-1 Universities should not be used to support other parts of the school (different sports, academics, infrastructure, etc).

I too went to an undergrad school where both the undergraduate and law schools were, respectively, very highly ranked. The situation for undergrads was the same there as it is at W&L -- it was more difficult for an undergrad to get into the law school than it was for a student from another school. The schools want DIVERSITY. All law schools restrict the amount of undergrads they take from their own school. Who wants to go to a law school where ½ the incoming first years all know each other? No Thank you. I’ll stick to having a few kinds from 30 or 40 schools.

W&L is great. The faculty really does care about the students. And if you actually took the time to talk to some of your fellow alumni, a majority of the law alums would tell you that they are very excited about the new Third Year program. Instead of spoon-feeding another year of black-letter law to students, they get a head start on learning how to be a "lawyer." Drafting contractual language to capture the precise goals of your client is not easy. Applying principles from several different areas of the law into a single problem is a great way to prepare students for the actal practice of law.

428 - Never post a comment that is that long again. No one read it, and no one will. Idiot.

I also graduated from Wash U and echo the sentiments regarding both the CSO and St. Louis, particularly the clueless St. Louis law firms. When I was there, CSO was just short of being incompetent. There was someone in the top 5% of my graduating class who was still unemployed in early April. Thankfully, they have made some changes and cleaned up CSO somewhat, though it doesn't sound like they have truly gotten it right. As for St. Louis, if you're not from there, they don't want to talk to you, period. The reason they like SLU students more is because Wash U students are national and SLU students are from St. Louis. Horrible town trying to pass itself off as a city, with clueless law firms that are not well known outside of St. Louis. But I am glad to see Wash U holding tight at number 19, and hope to see it continue to climb. It just makes the degree that I paid a ton of money for that much more valuable to me, especially since I was there during its ascent.

Where does everyone think UC Irvine will rank? They have a solid inaugeral class...and some pundits think they'll be top once they are included in the US News rankings.

428:

"T6" stands for HYSCCN.

428-

First, everyone you know who went to W&L from undergrad are presumably double generals who stayed for law school. Color me unimpressed that the demographic that chose to stay in Lexington for 3 more years all happened to like it there first time around.

And bro, lay off the adderall.

I would go to Tulane on scholarship over any of these schools.

4:30 has a point about Wash U and St. Louis firms. St. Louis firms have an inferiority complex and don't believe that anyone not from the city or attending SLU would really want to work there. I was top 10% at Wash U after 1L year, but the handful of St. Louis firms I applied to didn't give me so much as a call back. Basically, if you're from one of the coasts, they'd rather not not spend three hours of recruiting time so that Wash U students can have a back-up firm while they're interviewing in Chicago, DC and New York.

The knocks against CSO are both fair and unfair. When it comes to working in the Midwest, Wash U has a big alumni network and CSO has existing relationships with a lot of firms. Outside of the midwest, things get a little more difficult. Basically, the only firms from the coasts that recruit on campus at Wash U are firms with big recruiting budgets that hire students from across the country. Obviously, these firms aren't sending a team of lawyers halfway across the country to recruit out of the bottom of the class. They're only interested in the top students, and the top students do pretty well.

The problem is if you're a middle of the pack or lower student that's trying to leave the midwest and there's nothing exceptional about you (you don't have a tech background, you don't have a good network and you're not that attractive). CSO has a hard time convincing the medium-size firms that actually hire students like these to make the trip out to St. Louis, when these same firms have filled 100% of their hiring needs with the dregs of the T14 and the top 1/3 at the local TTT for the last 50 years. CSO has been really proactive in going after these firms, especially by setting up local job fairs on the coasts (realizing that if the firms won't come to you, you should go to them). But if you're a middle of the road student, you're going to have to pound the pavement yourself. Theres' no getting around it.

All the CSO can do is reach out to as many recruiting departments as possible to spread the word that we have a class full of kids with strong numbers who are interested in practicing across the country. If a student is interested in a particular market, CSO can call the recruiters there on the student's behalf. They can advise the student on the strategies that hundreds of students in similar situations before them have found effective. But they can't work miracles. If your grades suck and your not good at networking or interviewing, CSO isn't so strong that they can guarantee you a job at a good firm in any market in the country. That's just not reality.

With that said, Wash U Law actually realizes that it is a professional school and that the main reason students come there is to get a job when they leave. Sadly, I think this sets them apart from other schools. The school is GREAT about creating programs that let even middle of the road students distinguish themselves. There are journal slots for half the student body. There are tons of moot court teams. And if you can't squeeze onto a journal or moot court, there are a ton of clinics where you can get cool experience that will pop off a resume (or at least give you something to talk about in an interview). St. Louis isn't a huge town, but it's still a city and ther are lots of opportunities to intern with firms during the school year or work for non-profits after 1L year if that's what you want. The grading policies/curve are forgiving too.

Anyway, I should reiterate that I loved Wash U. I had a great time and would recommend it to anyone. If you do well there, you'll have no shortage of opportunities at good firms. If you don't do well, you won't have the same opportunities as a middle of the road student at Norwestern or Georgetown, but no one should expect that. What you will get is a good education from a school with a solid reputation that's fairly well known. If you're willing to work a little to create your own opportunities, graduating from Wash U certainly won't slow you down. The school will do everything it can to help you, and you honestly can't ask for much more.

428, 435 - very very subtle W&L trolling

What a waste of a 420th comment!

--Mike P.

I find it funny that I went to W&L law, yet rarely run into another W&L law grad in DC. Yet here on the ATL comment board, a large portion of the 400 + comments are from W&L law folks. Who knew?

The reaction I get at my V15 firm is usually "Where did you go to law school again? Washington and Mary?"

As already stated here- BC and BU have about the same selectivity rating- I was accepted to both. I chose BU- and don't regret it. BU is rated higher overall by most in the ratings business. That's a fact- not some slate of hand. I'm not going to go into a line by line comparison. Suffice to say it's what's inside a building that counts- not the outside facade.
I understand the competiveness- a little too well- that's making the BC supporters lose their objectivity.
It's not like there is a stgma by being a BC Law student or alum. That said, BU is a school on the rise.

Doesn't W&L share a campus with VMI? What's that like? I dated a Keydet for a while. Uber-hot, uber-dumb.

I find it remarkable that a thread ostensibly dedicated to schools ranked 17-28 has generated so many comments on W & L, a law school formerly ranked 25 but now ranked 30. There's clearly far too much glee about this from some folks, and also WAY too much defensiveness from the W & L crowd about the fall in rankings. A 30 ranking is hardly the end of the world, nor is a 35, 39, or 41 ranking (the next cohorts).

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This comment thread is a disgraceful embarrassment to our profession.
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Oversensitive catholics. I believe it is true that the pope was a member of the hitler youth. Take a chill pill

428

I gather that you go to W&L law from you poor reading and comprehension skills. I absolutely loved and enjoyed my W&L undergrad experience. It was the time of my life and I loved the school. I challenge you to discern my identity, which shouldn't be hard if you go to W&L, and you will discover that I was quite the legend on campus. In my years on campus, I pulled off feats never imagined. You're may be right that I am a douchebag, but I do come from a privileged background with rural roots. I was no "outsider looking in" because I was in the middle of everything. My accomplishments were many and include membership in the colonnade club, being a superstar varsity athlete, and graduating at the top of my class. So, find out who I am, you can confirm all this yourself.

My beef is with the law school and the law school only. It is a festering shithole of an institution. I'm sorry that your career went down the toilet the second you stepped into Sydney Lewis Hall, but don't mix my words. Next time you address me, sir, I suggest you take an appropriate tone because you are in the presence of a legend.

439
"slate of hand"? Do you mean "sleight of hand"?
Typical B.U. The only thing "on the rise" at B.U. is the murder rate.

388: I have to disagree. I have worked with top students from both Wash U and SLU and honestly have not noticed an appreciable difference in their quality. I have noticed many differences in their backgrounds, work experiences, ages, etc. For example, SLU students have tended to be older and have had previous careers while Wash U. has had more straight-out-of-undergrad experiences.

Probably a more accurate comparison between the two schools, as far as quality of students goes, is Wash U.'s 20%-25% to SLU's 10%-15% - and the gap increases as you go down the rankings until you reach the bottom where a bad student is a bad student is a bad student - no matter where you are.

In light of the parochial nature of the town, I think some employers may reasonably find that a student in the top 10%-15% at SLU with years of professional experience will compare equally, if not favorably, against a Wash U. student in the top 20%-25% with no experience at all.

It seems unfair that a top student at Wash U, a far and away more prestigious law school, should be in competition with a top student at SLU. The disadvantage for the top SLU student, however, is that he generally must have logged some years in the real world first to compete. I personally think that's fair.

The bottom of the class at both schools, however, is downright scary.

Just my $.02

328 is correct that WUSTL (and I would guess most of the schools in this range) suffers from a signficant lack of "bench strength."

You can get a B at WUSTL, but you really have to work for it. You can show up hung over and draw a robot on your torts final and probably get a 91.

328 is correct that WUSTL (and I would guess most of the schools in this range) suffers from a signficant lack of "bench strength."

You can get a B at WUSTL, but you really have to work for it. You can show up hung over and draw a robot on your torts final and probably get a 91.

I had a great experience at Wash U and enjoyed St. Louis very much. However, I will agree that CSO is Wash U's big weakness.

Wash U's placement with top firms and with clerkships at the Court of Appeals is below where it ought to be. The problem, in my opinion, is that it is in a smaller market and not everyone has gotten the word that its now a national power and no longer just a regional school.

Wow 439, you're so clever, using the craigslist killer to take a shot at BU. Well we may have murderers, but at least we have jobs

446-

Are you from STL?

If so, where did you go to high school?

451 - Yes, I am.

Ha! Gotta love that question. I grew up in NorCo which means that no one in the legal community has any idea where I went to high school and assumes that I must have packed heat and/or am handy in a knife fight.

Not that I'm not, of course!

couple of facts -

1. The un-excommunicated bishops were not excommunicated for holocaust views. They were excommunicated for their participation in an illicit ordination ceremony conducted by Archbishop LeFebrve. LeFebrve and his followers denied and continue to deny the validity of the Second Vaticn Council (aka Vatican II). Google: SSPX if you want more info.

2. Josef Ratzinger (aka B XVI) was conscripted into the Hitler youth against his will, like other German boys at the time.

Man. I wish fugitive from justice was schtick. I really do.
Who actually thinks that your reputation from your glory days during UG lives on? Sorry sir, you are just another alpha with a sense of entitlement working on doc review.

I went to BU and got a great education. The building is terrible, but my classes prepared me well and I had no problem getting a big firm job in DC.

You hyper-sensitive Catholic douche-bags are hilarious. I never see any similar reactions to really offensive racial and ethnic slurs on this site.

Hey you moron at 456-
Insert another religion for the word "Catholic" in your comment and you'd be the most reprehensible, evil, and hated commenter on this website. The ONLY reason you're getting away with it is because Catholics are freely dumped on.

@435, well it's good that WUSTL's CSO office has finally stopped on by. Maybe if you incompetent fools would spend less time on this blog and more time on getting your students---all of your students, not just the top of the class---hired, maybe WUSTL will continue its ascent in the rankings.

Just to hedge my bet, if you are some crazy shill, CSO apologist, my G*d get your head out of your ass.

Where is Charlotte School of Law? Are they at least in the top 40?

The worst thing that WUSTL did is put all the Professors and their Secretary's offices right in the fucking library.

I am sitting here trying to study and listening to 3 fucking rude secretaries yelling about their petty little concerns. The idiot professor do the same thing.

USNWR should downgrade this school to a Tier 4 because there is no quite place to study.

I hate it here.

I went to BU - it's a dump. If you're in the top 10% of your class at BU or BC, you'll get a great job at a top firm in any city, so why not pick the nicer setting?

461-

You didn't go to BU, stop lying.

BU is a better school than BC. Stop crying about your lower ranking. It's lower because BC is not as good, and because smarter people choose to go to BU. We have better profs and better job prospects. The only thing BC has going is that its undergrad school has prestige, but that doesn't carry over. Maybe if you guys cry some more it'll change the rankings or reality, good luck.

105,

IU-B is far superior to IU-Indy, as evidenced by the fact that IU-Indy students/grads intentionally confuse the two schools. I can't count the number of times I've interviewed an IU-Indy student who claims on his resume that he went to the Indiana University School of Law, only to find out later in the interview that he went to Indy and not Bloomington.

If they're comparable schools, why intentionally confuse them?

You should tone down your remakrs about Catholicism, Elie. Some of your readers are Catholics and take their religion seriously. You wouldn't write a piece about Muslims and talk about how nutty and off the wall they all are, now would you? That's because not all of them are crazy. In a similar vein, not all Catholic priests are child predators. The jokes are getting old, man.

UGA vs. Emory rants remind me of LSU students always trying to justify that they are better than Tulane students.

Face it UGA and LSU (bar prep schools), your school is owned by an in-state private, no shame in it. Different schools designed for different people. HYS pwns everybody else, so just accept it and move on.

309, 381 - InferioriTTTy complex

UGA vs. Emory rants remind me of LSU students always trying to justify that they are better than Tulane students.

Face it UGA and LSU (bar prep schools), your school is owned by an in-state private, no shame in it. Different schools designed for different people. HYS pwns everybody else, so just accept it and move on.

309, 381 - InferioriTTTy complex

UGA vs. Emory rants remind me of LSU students always trying to justify that they are better than Tulane students.

Face it UGA and LSU (bar prep schools), your school is owned by an in-state private, no shame in it. Different schools designed for different people. HYS pwns everybody else, so just accept it and move on.

309, 381 - InferioriTTTy complex

Re: Comment 330

"I attended W&L undergrad which was my top choice school. I am now at a T6 law school which a V5 offer. My identity should be easy to discern so you can confirm these stats. Your theory has just been shat upon."

Fugitive from Justice -- I am glad that your identity is apparently so easy to discern. I guess that you don't mind sharing your thoughtful insights and candor with your "T6 law school" and "V5 firm." Let us all know how the offer "which" your firm works out.

458,

I'm not from CSO, but I am a Wash U grad who has done OCI for my firm at Wash U. I've also had some interaction with the CSO folks that you think don't do anything for you, and they're actually pretty good. My personal opinion is that CSO isn't to blame for the problems of the students in the bottom and middle of the class.

Here's the issue. As a student in the bottom or middle of the class, you're not who the big firms that fly in from New York, DC and California are looking for. The overwhelming majority of these firms, my own included, are looking for the best students they can get. We're not looking for the middle or bottom of the class (not at Wash U or at any other school). Nothing CSO can do will change that.

The firms that actually will hire the overwhelming majority of the students in the bottom and middle of the class are medium to large regional firms. When these firms are from the midwest, they'll come to campus to do OCI. Outside of the midwest, they're not going to come. The two biggest reasons for this are (1) it's expensive and a pain in the ass to fly someone out to St. Louis to do interviews, and (2) these firms have no problem filling their recruiting needs from the schools they already go to (i.e. a couple of the top schools and schools in their region). CSO can do a lot to put Wash U on the radar screen of these firms, and they do, but at the end of the day it's a difficult sell - especially if there aren't any current alumni at the firm.

If you place yourself in the shoes of a hiring partner at a 150 lawyer firm in NYC. that has done all of their recruiting at NYU, Columbia, Fordham, Cardozo and Brooklyn for as long as any one can remember, you see how CSO has a hard job. When you consider that Wash U competes against GW, BU, BC and Vanderbilt ect., it becomes even harder. But as hard as their job is, they still do a pretty good job.

Everyone in the class eventually finds a job, if not at graduation then shortly thereafter. That's not the worst record.