American sucks.

The AmLaw 100 figures are out - get on it!

Obama takes a dump on Chicago by noting that his grandmother wrote better with a high school education than some of his students did at law school:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magazine/03Obama-t.html?pagewanted=2&hp

"She could write a better letter than many of my — I won’t say “many,” but a number of my former students at the University of Chicago Law School. So part of the function of a high-school degree or a community-college degree is credentialing, right?"

Where's your Messiah now, Flanders?

Why would anyone attend American (unless the were rejected from Georgetown, GW, George Mason, etc.)?

Why would anyone attend American (unless they were rejected from Georgetown, GW, George Mason, etc.)?

Ellie - The statement about W&L is retarded even for you. Lay off the twinkies.

The biggest travesty of these rankings year after year is that UC Hastings doesn't get any respect. Should be T30.

American hosted Justice Scalia as a guest speaker last Friday

WTF happened to CU Boulder?

I asked this earlier and had a few insights, but I still cannot fathom why it dropped 13 spots.

Great school & location, so glad I went there. Not the sort of place that was ever about the rankings, but this is a slap in the face!

I really don't think Fordham is too worried about Cardozo.

WTF happened to CU Boulder?

I asked this earlier and had a few insights, but I still cannot fathom why it dropped 13 spots.

Great school & location, so glad I went there. Not the sort of place that was ever about the rankings, but this is a slap in the face!

I echo the feelings of Guest # 87

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/war_on_first_years.php?show=comments

Moritz (OSU) is a great school and would have a larger national reach if more people were interested in leaving Ohio, but people stay more because of choice than anything else. And how can you beat being on the same campus as 20K hot undergrad girls?

The only reason to go to George Mason over American would be if you lived in Virginia and got the in-state tuition. Else, there's really no reason whatsoever to go to Mason and you don't really hear anything about them in the DC area.

I don't understand how UConn went from 46 to 52

As a top 5%er from one of these schools, I concur that most opportunities are open (e.g., district and appellate clerkships, but not Supreme Court). But you will still have to work harder to get them than some middle of the pack student from a T14.

W&L should be top 20. It got me a job with LockeLord.
Nuff said.

So, let's get this straight. Professors leave Cardozo to go to NYU, so clearly NYU is better than Cardozo. Professors leave Fordham to go to Cardozo, and that means...

Comment removed by moderator.

I once dated a girl from Tulane.
She wound up being insane.
She transferred to BYU
(Is that what sane people do?)
And I long since have forgotten her name.
--Above the Limerick

14,

By going to UGA.

I apologize for asking this question, but are any of these schools accredited by the American Bar Association?

I don't understand how wisconsin is ranked at all. sucky state school where no one passes the bar? (bar waiver does not mean you passed the bar, it means you didn't take it) madison = hell on earth, unless you smoke pot more than once a day. I hope everyone in the state freezes to death.

I did a Cardozo chick in the ass over the weekend and now somehow I have Swine Flu.

American is a joke.

As an incoming summer associate who turned down Fordham for Cardozo, I couldn't be happier.

as to how some bumble nowhere school is higher ranked with lower overall GPAs and LSAT, salaries, passage rates, and employment number scores than other schools ranked lower is beyond me.

I agree with Incoming Summer Associate. Fordham is a safety school.

That's brilliant 20. Excellent work. Really.

W&L's campus is beautiful. I do not understand all of the hate.

wisconsin sucks, unless you like fat girls in north face

I think its acceptable to go to in-state to a state school ranked this high, but not a private school.

Out of these, I would go to Fordham or Tulane. I think both are well-respected and have national appeal. They're also both in fun cities. If you can get into Forham you can probably get into Tulane on a large scholarship-- that would be a tough decision. I would skip most of these state schools unless you are set on networking in these states.

American and George Mason are awful law schools.

I sat in on a few classes at Tulane, but then I decided not to go there after I was gang raped by a bunch of students dressed as Mexicans who then proceeded to steal one of my new sneakers. It left me with a bad impression of the institution.

#24

I'm sorry that you didn't get into Wisconsin.

FORDHAM belongs in the t-14 with the other ELITE NY schools. There is no doubt. We are just as smart and hard working and a lot of us turned down really good schools and scholarships at places like BLS. Those spoiled brats at Columbia and NYLS like to look down on us, but if you're in the top 5-10% of your class at Fordham you can still end up at the same BIGLAW firms!

- Fordham 2L

Fordham may be ranked 30, but if you are looking for a biglaw job in NYC, it is just as good if not better than any of the schools ranked 15-29.

20 -

Only a complete misanthropic idiot would call a woman the "C" word, and spell it out, call a gay man the "F" word, and spell it out, but use a * when calling a black man the "N" word. In addition, it must have been difficult to do all that typing with your knuckles.

mysTTTal

FORDHAM belongs in the t-14 with the other ELITE NY schools. There is no doubt. We are just as smart and hard working and a lot of us turned down really good schools and scholarships at places like BLS. Those spoiled brats at Columbia and NYLS like to look down on us, but if you're in the top 5-10% of your class at Fordham you can still end up at the same BIGLAW firms!

- Fordham 2L

oink oink oink

W&L alums hold a great deal of power in corporate America (both undergrad and law). There is really no comparison between W&L and some of similarly ranked schools.

All the women at Cardozo are spoiled Jewish Princesses who are just looking to get their MRS degree on daddy's dime while living in Murray Hill.

Tulane all the way.

Tulane all the way.

All the women at Cardozo are spoiled Jewish Princesses who are just looking to get their MRS degree on daddy's dime while living in Murray Hill.

Out of these, I would go to Fordham or Tulane. I think both are well-respected and have national appeal. They're also both in fun cities. If you can get into Forham you can probably get into Tulane on a large scholarship-- that would be a tough decision. I would skip most of these state schools unless you are set on networking in these states.

George Mason's ranking is a mystery to most in the DC area. American, and even Maryland, are better represented in the DC firms. AU does seem to have a lot of people in positions at federal agencies. Also, a lot of the people who went to AU and are now at firms took a circuitous route: they started out at agencies and only got to the firms once they developed a marketable expertise at an agency. Although there was a (relative) uptick in AU students going straight into DC firms in recent years, this trend will weaken with the economy and permanent changes to the legal hiring market.

LOL @ 14's notion that there are attractive women in Ohio. State motto: Inbred goat-teeth hags or GTFO.

Out of these, I would go to Fordham or Tulane. I think both are well-respected and have national appeal. They're also both in fun cities. If you can get into Forham you can probably get into Tulane on a large scholarship-- that would be a tough decision. I would skip most of these state schools unless you are set on networking in these states.

Out of these, I would go to Fordham or Tulane. I think both are well-respected and have national appeal. They're also both in fun cities. If you can get into Forham you can probably get into Tulane on a large scholarship-- that would be a tough decision. I would skip most of these state schools unless you are set on networking in these states.

Wisconsin continues its inexorable slide towards mediocrity. SInce the Dean Davis era, the school has slipped from the top 25 to the mid-30s. What kills Wisconsin in the rankings, year in and year out, is the lack of selectivity in admissions, specifically its willingness to admit candidates with substandard LSAT scores who fill a perceived diversity need. By focusing on trying to recruit a diverse student body, which usually involves lowering LSAT/GPA standards and dangling financial aid to out-of-state students of color given the makeup of the state), Wisconsin has hurt its once-vaunted reputation as a top-tier law school.

While UW touts its "Law in Action' approach and is rightly honored for its clinical programs, the only "action" that alums like myself care about are jobs, and the plummeting reputation can only hurt on that front.

Still, the UW is a steal at in-state tuition rates, and the diploma privilege, while currently under attack in the 7th Circuit as violating the dormant commerce clause, makes it a no-brainer for those wishnig to practice in Wisconsin (sorry, Marquette). But if the UW wants alums to keep contributing, there may need to be a changing of the guard in the Dean's office and a tightening of standards in the admission's office.

er 38 -

get over it.

One of the most obnoxious things was listening to fellow classmates talk about how they got extra special reserve waitlisted from Stanford, Harvard, Columbia or NYU or how they turned down Cornell, UVA, Hastings, UMIch for Fordham. All true of course.

But getting hysterical over a bunch of obnoxious Columbia/NYU grads who want to lord over their superiority because either random selection when their stats are the same as Fordham matriculants who got waitlisted or because they got an extra point or 2 on the lsat compared to the Fordham class is even more obnoxious.

PS - more than top 5-10% of fordham end up in BIGLAWat least get your facts straight.

Get rid of that racist/sexist comment.

Cardozo chicks are genetically predisposed to enjoy a good pounding in the ass. If you can go there, do it.

lol@ 40's notion that the n word is equivalent to cunt or faggot.

American made a killing this year in OCI. We may not be respected much outside of DC, but all the notable firms interviewing at GULC took a few WCL students. The possibility of a gov externship during the school year also differentiates my school from the others on this list.

Wisconsin is awesome. I had a great three years there and now work in Biglaw in NYC. It can happen, it does happen, and should Paul Bearer come for me, at least I have my Wisconsin bar admission to fall back on if I need to flee the city for cheaper climes.

As a partner in a DC BigLaw firm, I have noticed that Mason graduates have performed consistenly better than AU grads. One of the reasons is that it is significanly harder to get into Mason. Why would you pay 3X as much to go to Amercian unless you couldn't get into other similarly ranked schools?

For Columbia and NYU grads calling Fordham TTT - let us all remember Yale & Harvard are laughing at your TTT asses.

What is SMU?

I would never hire an American law school grad. I would also never hire an Alabama law school grad.

I agree with 50. George Mason has minimal presence in DC.

38 -- LOL! Talk about an inferiority complex. If you feel that bad about it, you should have transferred after first year. Woops.

10- CU Boulder sucks really bad. It is not a great school, and its only a great location if you're a communist. This latest ranking is much more accurate.

Would anyone here go to Fordham or Tulane?

A LOT of Fordham students feeling neglected on here. Aw well...

SMU dominates Dallas. Suck it, UT.

The problem with most of the State schools listed here is that they have an alumni (i.e., job recruiting) base in notoriously lousy legal markets.

SUWANEE

oink oink oink

If you want a job in NYC, Fordham in the place to be. Higher ranked state schools just can't compare, its fifth in graduates represented in the Vault 100(Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Fordham). If you don't want a job at Biglaw in NYC, I hope you enjoy your solo practice in east bumble.

sweet home alabama

SMU dominates Dallas. Suck it, UT.

Wisconsin continues its inexorable slide towards mediocrity. SInce the Dean Davis era, the school has slipped from the top 25 to the mid-30s. What kills Wisconsin in the rankings, year in and year out, is the lack of selectivity in admissions, specifically its willingness to admit candidates with substandard LSAT scores who fill a perceived diversity need. By focusing on trying to recruit a diverse student body, which usually involves lowering LSAT/GPA standards and dangling financial aid to out-of-state students of color given the makeup of the state), Wisconsin has hurt its once-vaunted reputation as a top-tier law school.

While UW touts its "Law in Action' approach and is rightly honored for its clinical programs, the only "action" that alums like myself care about are jobs, and the plummeting reputation can only hurt on that front.

Still, the UW is a steal at in-state tuition rates, and the diploma privilege, while currently under attack in the 7th Circuit as violating the dormant commerce clause, makes it a no-brainer for those wishnig to practice in Wisconsin (sorry, Marquette). But if the UW wants alums to keep contributing, there may need to be a changing of the guard in the Dean's office and a tightening of standards in the admission's office.

SMU = LockeLordHouston paper slave

I want to pat 38 on the head, give him his graham crackers and send him to go watch cartoons.

What I'm curious about is where Alabama is finding all this money to throw at incoming students the last couple years.

SMU dominates Dallas. Suck it, UT.

In normal economies, 5-10% at Cardozo gets Biglaw, while it's 30-40% from Fordham. During the recent boom, those numbers went up - Fordham was over 50% for a couple of years, but that is obviously a thing of the past. Similarly, any rise at Cardozo about the 10% threshold is also ancient history.

In addition, there are many, many firms that hire from Fordham but not Cardozo. According to NALP, about twice as many firms recruit on campus from Fordham as Cardozo.

Please moderate #56. It is too bossy and presumptuous.

Also, SMU dominates Dallas.

Princeton review lists BYU as #3 for Most Competitive Students.

Do BYU law students deserve their reputation for being unusually competitive with one another? If so, any thoughts on why that is?

Your tuition is so cheap that I would think the push for biglaw would be less intense than at more expensive schools.

In this economy, you're prospects at Fordham are the same as Cardozo. Those 19 spots mean nothing

American U (Washington College of Law) may be the worst on this list.

I had a great experience at American, but of course it wouldn't have been my choice if I weren't committed to the DC area. (And, uh, if I hadn't been waitlisted by Georgetown). I didn't apply to GW because I heard horror stories from a few friends about the quality of teaching the general student experience there and their undergrads are insufferable. I never considered George Mason (it's across the river in VA, for God's sake). Catholic at the time was regarded as equal to AU, so why drive across town?

Anyway, since then, I've worked at two BigLaw firms (as associate and counsel) and I can tell you that while the Ivy and potted-Ivy grads may have impressive resumes (and sometimes the fun entitled attitudes to match) that's no indication of lawyerly competence. I've worked with terrific people from GMU, AU and Catholic and also with some really hopeless people from schools higher up the scale. And some of us denizens of the deeper end of the tier are scrappier, hungrier, and humbler than our brethren up the chain.

I assume that at places harder to get into the overall average intelligence of one's classmates may be higher -- but in the end that's not the only thing that makes someone either a great lawyer or even a fun person to hang out with.

What's shocking is UF. Where'd it go??

"Wisconsin has hurt its once-vaunted reputation as a top-tier law school"

wisconsin never had a vaulted reputation as a top tier school. or maybe it did decades ago and you are old.

George Mason has had an odd run. They came out of no where to leap all the 2nd tier schools, and two years ago I think they were at 34, and within 1-2 spots of William & Mary and Fordham.

They dropped back 7 spots, presumably because of the night program. But the surprising part is their student profile and applications. From a selectivity stand-point, they've done really, really well. It's not all show when you are pulling in students with credentials nearly on par with GWU.

I agree with the comment about some of these state schools traping graduates in lousy legal markets. Good luck landing a top legal job (or any decent legal job) in Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Alabama, or Ohio.

At this level of the rankings, the local market matters more than anything. So schools in DC/NY/SF have a big advantage.
I'm at George Mason, and can tell you that Mason puts people in every big DC firm every single year. This includes the DC-centered places like Wilmer, Covington, and Hogan, and also national presences like Kirkland. But you do have to be either top 1/3 or IP to get those positions.
I'm sure Fordham and Cardozo have similar success with NY firms, and Hastings in SF.
Where Ohio, Utah, Arizona etc grads go, I have no idea.

Top 40-50% of Fordham 2Ls got biglaw SA positions. I would speculate that this is a better number than most 15-29 ranked schools...

wisconsin is for fat people.

I go to Northwestern.

YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS.

80 - you're an idiot.

Top 50% Cardozo 2L going to a top firm.

I don't like how Fordham kids pretend they're just as smart as NYU/CLS students but didn't get into those schools because they were partying through college.

38- Yeah the top 5% at Fordham end up at the same firms as the top 75% of Columbia, or NYU. Hence the lower ranking. Sorry. I didn't get into Columbia or NYU, but I wish I did.

The W&L hate is dramatically misplaced. W&L is an outstanding law school. (Yes I am an alum, and a successful one - at least in my own mind - BigLaw etc.). Justice Lewis Powell is a good example of a W&L alum. As are many other well known lawyers. I agree with some of the posters on the Monday thread that W&L's ranking likely slid based on its "reputation" score with other legal academics tied to a lack of understanding of 3L's reform of the 3L curriculum. W&L has not taken a vocational school/trade school approach to legal education. The 3L practica courses will be just as academically and intellectually challenging (likely far more so) than your typical 3L classes. It is not a "how to draft and file a generic complaint in Virginia State Court" thing. The practica will involve very complex legal and factual issues (much more multilayered and complex than a case book based course) presented in "real world" context (i.e., how lawyers actually encounter them in real life -- which, by the way, does not involve case books, or Socratic interrogations regarding the rule in Shelley's Case). The work that the students will be doing will be far more advanced than first-year associate type work. In my class, the work will be about 4-5 year associate level, depending on the firm. Substantially more rising 3Ls opted in to the new curriculum (70 out of 130s) than the administration anticipated. As someone pointed out, UCLA is implementing a similar model for its new LLM program (but without the level of thought and planning that has gone into W&L’s model. At the end of the day, however, W&L is engaging in a bold experiment. Given its small size, W&L is very flexible and will meet its student’s needs (one of the huge benefits of a small school where going and chatting with the Dean is encouraged). For example, I would be shocked if the administration would not allow a student to do an independent study in lieu of a practica. Also, it may ultimately make the 3L curriculum optional rather than mandatory. However, based on what I have seen, I think it will be a VERY valuable program for the 99% of law students who actually want to practice law. In the near term, W&L’s US News rankings may slip based on academic “reputation” in the legal academy. But long term . . . I think W&L is on to something important.

Have any of you mouth-breathers ever searched BigLaw websites for American alumni? Compare the results to George Mason alumni. It's about a 3-1 factor in favor of American.

Seriously? People would spend time in law school in Alabama? or Georgia? or Wisconsin? or even Arizona or Maryland?

There's no question that the only two schools on the list that offer any opportunity are UC Davis and American. In each case, you're in an area with endless job ops, and at least as far as Davis is concerned, the tuition is cheap! Why would you spend thousands more to study in the middle of nowhere!?!

Of course, both schools are riddled with socialist professors. So that's a prob.

Does anyone outside of NYC know that Fordham has a law school? Do they have an undergrad program as well? Is it two year or four year?

W&L is top 25, with out a doubt.

At this level, you got to go public and go in-state for the $$ savings. So if you live in Alabama, go to Alabama and not UGA (same thing other way around). The five ranking points really don't matter.

I could not imagine spending 3 years living in whatever towns Washington & Lee and Wake Forest are in. I think if you go to these schools, people will be asking: but why?

A friend of mine went to Wake Forest undergrad and said it was an awful location.

Good law firms don't hire American and George Mason grads.

Working with both Fordham and Cardozo grads (and I attended neither), I can say that the Cardozo students seem MUCH happier with their law school experiences than those from Fordham. And it shows in their work. So much so that we accepted summers from Cardozo this year but not Fordham. (mid-large sized firm)

Agree. I've known Tulane grads and they seem bright and appear to have received a good legal education. Overall, respectable school. Plus, probably a cool place to spend three years.

- NOT a Tulane grad.

Public tuition makes a big difference for these mid-level schools.
If you can get in-state tuition in a good legal market - like Hastings, George Mason, or MD- College Park, it's an excellent value.

I would like to know more about the rumors concerning the willingness of Cardozo chicks to engage in anal sex. Is this in any way related to the sexually aggressive nature of CWT NY 05 chicks?

Cravath Curious

The W&L hate is dramatically misplaced. W&L is an outstanding law school. (Yes I am an alum, and a successful one - at least in my own mind - BigLaw etc.). Justice Lewis Powell is a good example of a W&L alum. As are many other well known lawyers. I agree with some of the posters on the Monday thread that W&L's ranking likely slid based on its "reputation" score with other legal academics tied to a lack of understanding of 3L's reform of the 3L curriculum. W&L has not taken a vocational school/trade school approach to legal education. The 3L practica courses will be just as academically and intellectually challenging (likely far more so) than your typical 3L classes. It is not a "how to draft and file a generic complaint in Virginia State Court" thing. The practica will involve very complex legal and factual issues (much more multilayered and complex than a case book based course) presented in "real world" context (i.e., how lawyers actually encounter them in real life -- which, by the way, does not involve case books, or Socratic interrogations regarding the rule in Shelley's Case). The work that the students will be doing will be far more advanced than first-year associate type work. In my class, the work will be about 4-5 year associate level, depending on the firm. Substantially more rising 3Ls opted in to the new curriculum (70 out of 130s) than the administration anticipated. As someone pointed out, UCLA is implementing a similar model for its new LLM program (but without the level of thought and planning that has gone into W&L’s model. At the end of the day, however, W&L is engaging in a bold experiment. Given its small size, W&L is very flexible and will meet its student’s needs (one of the huge benefits of a small school where going and chatting with the Dean is encouraged). For example, I would be shocked if the administration would not allow a student to do an independent study in lieu of a practica. Also, it may ultimately make the 3L curriculum optional rather than mandatory. However, based on what I have seen, I think it will be a VERY valuable program for the 99% of law students who actually want to practice law. In the near term, W&L’s US News rankings may slip based on academic “reputation” in the legal academy. But long term . . . I think W&L is on to something important.

UNC. How the mighty have fallen. When I was in law school, that place was ranked in the teens. Now it is more expensive and ranked lower.

www.tangledparachute.blogspot.com

Tulane was robbed!

Elie you're fucking retarded. Just because they don't let your kind into W&L doesn't mean you have to hate on it.

44 - W&L undergrads hold alot of power in corporate america, not law grads. Undergrads turn their nose up at the law students because they are inferior. Likewise, corporate america knows a W&L law degree is TTT.

Let's recap:
- W&L is an infested toilet of a shithole
- The administration is a joke. Smolla has his head up his ass and Andrea Hilton is a cunt.
- The law building is junk. That's why it's tucked way behind the beautiful undergrad campus.
- Gaming the rankings all those years is finally catching up. For years, the administration took from the undergrad in order to give bloated scholarships to lure away Duke, Vandy, and UVA admits. Students are starting to realize the value of a T14 degree.
- The new 3rd year program is a gimmick. BIGLAW isn't going to hire anyone who can plead a traffic ticket in Rockbridge County Court.
- If you go to W&L Law, I apologize for you career opportunities being shit down the toilet.

All in all, I'm glad this TTT is finally being recognized as the busch league institution it has always been. Keep on sliding!!

54/75: You have made my day. I have little to add--I graduated UW last year, and watched the admissions office take anyone that would add to "diversity" .... people are getting in with sub-150 LSATs! If you are "not-diverse" and want to be accepted at Wisconsin, you need a 165+ LSAT and 3.5 to pull up their ranking. Dean Davis needs to go...

85 adding -- it can't be denied though that American is too damned expensive for the risk that you won't get a decent job. If you're in the top 15% it's pretty good (or it was ten years ago) but if I had it to do over again, knowing I'd finish in the top 5%, I wouldn't have gone to any of these DC schools, but paid instate tuition at UMD. Sure, it's nowhere on the charts, but with a top 5% from there, you can do just fine. You just have to be prepared to work in places or firms with a major Maryland connection, like Balamer, Annapolis and other such perfectly nice places.

If you want to work in Washington, Idaho, or OR, University of Washington is the best school in the country outside of top 5.

Wait - where is GW? I thought they were in the 30's. Do I have to wait until next year?

@103 - You friend was obviously a whore from St. Louis

Wait....no offensive anti-Catholic remark made in connection with Fordham? Elie you really need to apologize for your remarks.

Working with both Fordham and Cardozo grads (and I attended neither), I can say that the Cardozo students seem MUCH happier with their law school experiences than those from Fordham. And it shows in their work. So much so that we accepted summers from Cardozo this year but not Fordham. (mid-large sized firm)

The overall score is less important than the peer assessment scores. These are the people hiring grads. Using a composite of those figures: UNC jumps into the top 20 and W&L in the top 25.

Madison is the coolest city in the Midwest and has a ton of hot and cool women.

SMU is overflowing with asslobsters with huge heads, like Timmay from South Park.

I thought about going to Hastings, but almost nobody I spoke to had heard of it-- inlcuding my friends from the Bay Area. Also, there are no undergrad girls there.

Madison is the coolest city in the Midwest and has a ton of hot and cool women.

The overall score is less important than the peer assessment scores. These are the people hiring grads. Using a composite of those figures: UNC jumps into the top 20 and W&L in the top 25.

97

W&L's third year program is a gimmick. They're not on to anything. You can't defend what amounts to a vocational program. I'd be embarrassed if I were you to claim W&L Law as my alma mater. I'm sorry you couldn't get into a better school. Glad to hear you overcame it though.

Hastings deserves no respect. It is a few points on the LSAT away from Loyola, and a world away from USC.

I was accepted at Fordham and Alabama. Fordham would have cost me a house. Alabama was free tuition. I didnt want to work in Biglaw when I graduated. I'm graduating debt-free, in the middle of my Alabama class, with a job in federal agency. Things worked out well. Enjoy your billable hours.

The writing was on the wall when Gordon Smith left Wisconsin to go teach at BYU. Wisconsin will not recover.

George Mason? No one outside Northern Virginia has heard of it. Most of the other schools I couldn't find on a map.

UC Davis is known nationwide. And UNC.

That's it.

The overall score is less important than the peer assessment scores. These are the people hiring grads. Using a composite of those figures: UNC jumps into the top 20 and W&L in the top 25.

88 -

One reason George Mason has done so well (I'm not sure, but it has to be the newest school on this list at ~30 years old) is that it's drawing good people from the federal government, and placing people in good government positions.
On the same front, its politically conservative reputation has served it well during the Bush years.

I'm not sure why there's so much American-hate on this board. Sure it's overpriced like every other private law school. And I agree that nobody should choose to go there over Georgetown or something. And I don't get the impression that the career services there is any better or worse than similarly ranked schools.

But I was generally happy with my experience there. Good professors, huge course selection, and a down-to-earth student body. The law reviews and journals are all relatively highly regarded, as is the clinical program.

I passed two different state bar exams (including CA) on the first try without terrible difficulty, and generally attorneys here in CA have been receptive to the school. My firm has been pleased with my work and I've never felt out of my league when working with attorneys from better schools.

It wasn't my first choice, but my sense is that if you get in, work hard, and take advantage of some of the highly regarded opportunties there, you can get an excellent legal education and easily compete with people from better schools.

The overall score is less important than the peer assessment scores. These are the people hiring grads. Using a composite of those figures: UNC jumps into the top 20 and W&L in the top 25.

LOL@ "But getting hysterical over a bunch of obnoxious Columbia/NYU grads who want to lord over their superiority because either random selection when their stats are the same as Fordham matriculants who got waitlisted or because they got an extra point or 2 on the lsat compared to the Fordham class is even more obnoxious."

Yes, the only difference between Columbia and Fordham is two points on the LSAT. Keep telling yourself that.

The overall score is less important than the peer assessment scores. These are the people hiring grads. Using a composite of those figures: UNC jumps into the top 20 and W&L in the top 25.

45/48: I'll take your bait, troll.

You do know that there are more Jews at Fordham than at Cardozo, despite the schools' respective affiliations, right?

88, GMU has good selectivity and excellent credentials for its student body because the school doesn't really believe in affirmative action as much as other schools (though it does do AA to some extent). That's what happens when the faculty is not entirely made up of Communists who can't hack it in a real job in the private sector.
But the school is in hot water with the ABA and in (small) danger of losing its accreditation because it's not as "diverse" as it should be. On the other hand, a school that is 100% black and Hispanic would be considered by the ABA to be the most "diverse" school in the country.

I have a dream that one day my children will be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

What's more important, the overall score or the peer assessment?

100- who cares what happens outside NYC anyways? You are in denial......and soon the unemployment line!

goooooooo gaTTTors... oh wait.

GMU does not place as well as AU at top firms in DC. Not even close. I don't go to either, but worked at a top DC-based firm.

I will say, however, that (many of) the attorneys from AU and Catholic were among of the best associates and partners I ever worked with. Georgetown? Smart, but many an insufferable dbag.

GMU does not place as well as AU at top firms in DC. Not even close. I don't go to either, but worked at a top DC-based firm.

I will say, however, that (many of) the attorneys from AU and Catholic were among the best associates and partners I ever worked with. Georgetown? Smart, but many an insufferable dbag.

Lexington, VA (home of W&L) is the armpit of the universe. I got in there, went to admitted students weekend to check it out, and got the 'eff out of that hellhole as fast as I could. Told them they could take their scholarship money and shove it, you couldn't pay me enough to live there.

I went to UGA. I always planned on staying in Georgia and figured that a UGA law degree would mean something here. I have since found out that it doesn't. You hear all the time about how a USC law grad (CA) got a job because the interviewer was also a USC grad or how a Catholic grad got a great federal job because he lives in DC. That doesn't happen with UGA grads--they seem to not want to help each other out (probably bc the law school prides itself on being an uncollegial place), and the Athens and Atlanta legal markets really have little to offer (and those who leave the state usually find that the UGA name doesn't travel all that well).

everyone at SMU is lame.

Look, if you're considering these schools, the only two things that matter are LOCATION and PRICE.
1) Pay as little as you can, either through public tuition or scholarship.
2) Go to a good legal market (DC, NY, etc) where you can get a good firm/government job that will pay your loans.

Tulane has tradtionally had twice as many law students as most of the other private schools on this list-- but it has recently decided to gradually drop its incoming class size from 350 to less than 250. It will be interesting to see if this change has any impact on its future ranking. One thing is for sure, some of the very small schools, like Washington & Lee, have a very small alumni base.

-135

keep telling yourself you are an academic -professional legal champ.

Ive worked with boneheads from T10's -

Lets be frank that when you select based off of GPA/LSAT and some bullshit save the whales social club where some kid was president you are not selecting based off overall ability to be an excellent attorney but from a limited pool of indicators that dont tell you jack about the person's ability to perform where it counts whether in drumming up new business, retaining clients or the aspects of practicing law.

140 -- yes, the best place to be these days for employment is NYC. Just check out the banks and major law firms, not a whit of trouble.

-135

keep telling yourself you are an academic -professional legal champ.

Ive worked with boneheads from T10's -

Lets be frank that when you select based off of GPA/LSAT and some bullshit save the whales social club where some kid was president you are not selecting based off overall ability to be an excellent attorney but from a limited pool of indicators that dont tell you jack about the person's ability to perform where it counts whether in drumming up new business, retaining clients or the aspects of practicing law.

112 = richmond law student

boo hoo. go eat your french cries somewhere else.

85 adding -- it can't be denied though that American is too damned expensive for the risk that you won't get a decent job. If you're in the top 15% it's pretty good (or it was ten years ago) but if I had it to do over again, knowing I'd finish in the top 5%, I wouldn't have gone to any of these DC schools, but paid instate tuition at UMD. Sure, it's nowhere on the charts, but with a top 5% from there, you can do just fine. You just have to be prepared to work in places or firms with a major Maryland connection, like Balamer, Annapolis and other such perfectly nice places.

Correct--second-rate lawyers who graduated from SMU are everywhere in Dallas, so if sheer numbers equal domination then SMU "dominates" Dallas, for what that is worth. SMU is full of students who got rejected by the University of Texas. Don't forget that--nobody in their right minds goes to SMU if they can get into UT. UT is cheaper, provides a better education, and is far more prestigious. Top ten percent from SMU=middle of the class at UT=so what?

Cardozo is a fine school, really.

61 and 63: take a look at the rosters of DC firms and you'll see that most of us disagree with you. Also my recent experience with students from AU has usually been very positive.
That said, AU has plenty of shortcomings in addition to its relative lack of prestige compared to GW and GULC. Number one is its location: a 15 minute shuttle ride from a metro stop far outside central DC. Number two is the dean. Very nice guy and well-respected in the international human rights community, but not doesn't have much currency with DC practitioners and firms. AU could help itself by moving downtown and getting a better-connected, DC lawyer or academic as its dean. Actually, how about just severing its ties to American University? The Washington College of Law was independent for decades and did fine. Its not clear to me that its association with AU has ever helped it out. But perhaps it needs that for accreditation.

That was a sad, sad day 129. I still haven't quite gotten over it.

DC BigLaw placement:
American
Maryland
George Mason
(in this order, which inverts the ordinal rankings)

Rankings aren't everything.

WAIT. Mason is about to lose ABA accreditation because of the color of the student body?

Wow. What racists ABA employees have become.

ELIE: We need a blog entry on that! Stat!

#98, you might be right but compare the ages of the two schools. American has had significantly more time (about 120 years) to build its reputation and alumni base. GMU, I believe, is less than 30 years old. Although it still has some way to go, what it has done in such a short time is impressive.

Wisconsin 3L with a V10 NYC offer. I am happy that I spent my 3 years in Wisconsin.

Some Texas notes:

Baylor has finally been exposed as the ass clown of Texas law schools. The worst school, in the worst city, with the worst people and administration.

SMU does dominate Dallas.

But UT dominates Texas and every SMU kid would have come here if they could.

TTTulane wins for its racist student bar association and shoe thieving student body!

The American name is tied to an undergraduate university that is ranked 83rd: that sucks!

Brooklyn Law School is easily the third best law school in NY.

RE: American vs. George Mason

Both schools offer the opportunity to get any DC biglaw job you want. But Mason's out-of-state tuition is HALF the price. And if you're from Virginia, it's a no-brainer.

SMU = asslobsters who love fish sticks

Good luck landing a job outside of Dallas (and similar cities) with the name Southern Methodist University.

I'll plug for Arizona. #1: Top Professors (I took Evidence from Tom Mauet, Torts from Dan Dobbs, and a week-long class on the Supreme Court from Sandra Day O'Connor). #2: Brand New facilities this year - multi-million dollar makeover that turned a blah building and crappy library into something really cool. Based on this alone, look for a jump in next year's rankings. #3 Great regional opportunities, even for those not in the top 10%. Phoenix is a decent legal market, and it's relatively cheap to live there. Many of my fellow students are headed to California - L.A., San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento, and north to Portland and Seattle. Not everyone wants to live in NYC! #4 Relatively cheap tuition. It went up, but it's still only around $18k a year for residents, and about $26k for non-residents. #5 Great year-round weather! (no one stays in the summer, anyway).

Fugitive From Justice-

What is your problem? Dumped by a woman (or man) from W&L Law? Didn't get in? Flunked out? Clearly you have some issues to resolve. And your "information" is entirely incorrect in about 100000 different ways.

When, as is the case at Utah, your graduating class consists of 125 students, you don't need a big market to get a great job.

WHERE'S UCONN????????????

What kind of person voluntarily decides to live at Washington & Lee???

159,
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/06/26/gmu
"The ABA has repeatedly questioned whether the school was doing enough to attain a sufficiently representative student body"

It doesn't seem GMU is in significant danger of losing accreditation, but the ABA's repeated reports and accreditation visits to the school show how ridiculous it is that the (relative) lack of affirmative action is even an issue.

Tulane's newly elected student body president and VP are both minorities.

99- Wow- You're incredibly uninformed! "People would spend time in law school in Alabama? ... at least as far as Davis is concerned, the tuition is cheap! Why would you spend thousands more to study in the middle of nowhere!?!"

Tuition Comparison:
Davis: $32,466(http://www.law.ucdavis.edu/current/financial-aid/cost-of-attendance.html)
Alabama: $12,564 (http://www.law.ua.edu/prospective/?re=aid)

Both schools charge and extra $12K for out of state students, though Alabama gives just about everyone from out of state a scholarship with the difference.

I'm just glad you didn't go to business school! Whew!

P.S. Why is Alabama the only school that is NOT listed alphabetically despite a tie in the rankings? Is that yet another NYC bias in Above the Law, just like the weddings that no one outside of NY cares about?
P.P.S. No, I am not a student at Alabama Law.
P.P.P.S. Davis is in the middle of nowhere too. Sorry buddy.

I am willing to bet that most of the negative comments on these threads come from middling students at their respective schools who, now burdened with insurmountable debt, are feeling disillusioned with the reality of the legal market. If you wanted biglaw you have no one to blame but yourself. The fact is that top students from almost any school can get a SA. Unfortunately 90% of you won't be in the top 10% of your class. Maybe you would be better served to study harder or send out more resumes instead of bashing your school's reputation in a misguided effort to rationalize to yourself why you are facing unemployment. Your sense of entitlement to 160k a year does not make up for your failed work ethic.

I know a girl who finished in the top 5 students in Alabama and couldnt get a job as a lawyer and now works for a congressman about a year after she got out of school. The rankings should really factor in legal markets because if the market isnt there it doesnt matter how great the professors are or the building is or how many books they have.

I went to W&L. I didn't ask for a refund or anything, but I'm not sure I'd make the same choice again, at least not now. Mind you, I did well--top 10%, LR editorial board, multiple offers from AmLaw100. For me, law school was and is an economic gamble. I knew I was taking on a lot of debt and would need to do well enough to get a BigLaw job to make it worth while. At the time, tuition at W&L was low, the cost of living was higher, and the ranking was higher too. So I took the risk.

Today, that balancing has changed. Tuition has gone up a decent amount in the last few years, and I would expect that with less support from the undergrad that trend will continue. While the cost of living is still low, I don't know if that offsets the drop in rankings. Plus, the third year plan may turn out fine, but I wouldn't be willing to take that gamble until I saw how employers react after a couple years.

I should also note that W&L is still very much a regional school and hasn't built a strong reputation in the major markets. I interviewed with top firms in New York, D.C., and Chicago. During those interviews, I was asked "where's Washington & Mary," which was indicative of subsequent interviews when it became clear that people either hadn't heard of it or weren't entirely sure if it was different from William and Mary. Plus, a close friend interviewed at Williams & Connolley and said the interviewers overwhelming response was essentially "we're considering hiring from W&L, really?" Again, all this may well change with time. And I hope it does because at this point I have a lot invested. But again, if I had to do it over and pick a school right now, I would likely make a different choice given the risks of the third year program, increasing tuition costs, and rankings right now.

Way to drop the ball UCONN!! Maybe admit some kids with good LSATs and GPAs instead of worrying about being a "Top 15 law school for hispanics" or whatever bullshit it is we're touting now.

I know a 178 that made stuff up

Arizona alum. Dean Birmingham and the Career Services Office were absolutely worthless. They do nothing for anyone who moves outside of Arizona, trying to refer you to local law schools who could care less because you're not one of their alums. The whole CSO needs to be overhauled from the bottom up.

New Dean Ponoroff, are you reading this. Worthless. Three of my classmates are still unemployed. It took me 13 months to find work, no thanks to Dean Birmingham.

U of A has so little local work for law students they hold interviews in Las Vegas and call them On Campus Interviews. They are terrible!!!!!!!!!!!

OSU and hot girls, an empirical study:
It's a numbers game. 53,000 students. Let's assume that only 1% of the women on campus are drop-dead gorgeous. That still leaves you with hundreds of gorgeous women. Now you have a bigfirm salary, maturity, and the opportunity to take them away to a big city. Fish in a barrel. . .

All of these schools are FINE. If you want to relocate, however, you had better have a name-brand diploma.

If you want to remain living in your area, then a diploma from that jurisdiction is sufficient... and probably cheaper.

That's it.

American has alumni in every DC federal agency, DC BigLaw firm, and even secondary markets like CA, Boston, Texas, and Atlanta. American places many students in NYC BigLaw firms.

Sorry, this is 179 again. I meant to say in the first paragraph that the cost of living is low. That really is a benefit. If you're looking at going to GW and taking out $1000+/month in loans just to pay for rent, it's nice to know you can go to W&L and take out for far less in loans for a similar education. But again, that is just one factor that weighed into my equation.

These comments are sorely lacking in the Emory department...

The Davis, in Davis Polk went to W&L.

W&L Haters: First of all, Suck It. Having gone to W&L and now a lawyer working in NYC and doing NYU Tax LLM evening, I prefer W&L. I think the faculty are on the whole better teachers who rather live in a small-town than New York. W&L doesn't pretend to be Yale (or NYU) but it's a very good school. Second, I have worked with lawyers and students from many law schools, ranked higher and lower than W&L, and W&L's students are just as smart and educated. The fact that W&L or any school moves in the rankings every year doesn't really signify any great change. Do you really think Indiana changed enough to deserve a 13 place jump? Next, the third year program, if you knew anything about it, is not an attempt to game the system but a way to actually teach students how to be lawyers. People may criticize it yet most everyone complains when they leave law school they don't actually know how to be a lawyer so it doesn't make sense to criticize this new approach. And yes you still get exposed to the same law school teaching methods in 1L and 2L year and partly 3L year. Fourth, while W&L does have some students transfer (as was was mentioned yesterday, usually to UVA), most of those kids that transfer aren't missed. They're just people who couldn't get into UVA in the first place and use W&L to transfer. UVA is a great school and no one at W&L pretends that it's better than UVA . I think for the most part there's mutual respect. Last, that guy who was commenting yesterday, Fugitive or whatever, is a goon who obviously has some pent-up issues. Some people from NYC may come to Lexington and not love it and then talk trash when they're the idiots who come to southwestern Virginia and then are surprised when it turns out not to be like the East Village. Probably 98% of the people who have gone to W&L love it, and most people now at least begrudgingly like "Hot Rod" and I have never heard the administration mention they keep the classes small to boost rankings. The fact is W&L is and always has been a small law school in a small town and because it's the smallest highly ranked law school, that makes it unique.

"Princeton review lists BYU as #3 for Most Competitive Students.

Do BYU law students deserve their reputation for being unusually competitive with one another? If so, any thoughts on why that is?

Your tuition is so cheap that I would think the push for biglaw would be less intense than at more expensive schools. "

There are a few reasons.

First, part of BYU's competitiveness is the maturity/religiosity of the students. It seems most are married, many have kids, and none of them drink/party. That leaves more time for studying, I guess.

Second, there are always a number of Mormon students who turn down T-14 and even T-5 offers to go to their church school. I personally find that idiotic, but it happens regularly.

Finally, ranked by the students' GPAs/LSATs BYU would fall at about 20th. The ILRG raw data for 2009 has BYU at 19th for LSAT scores and 13th for undergrad GPA. But because of the conduct restrictions as a result of the school's church affiliation (no drinking, smoking, sex outside marriage, etc.), BYU gets about half of the applications that other schools in the same range get each year. That hurts the school when it comes to selectivity.

The students at BYU are, for the most part, a little better qualified than students at similarly ranked schools, but they've chosen to attend a law school without a strong national reputation and thus BigLAW jobs are only open to 10-20% of the class. That's probably the biggest reason for the competitiveness.

169 - Agreed. Arizona was a great place to go to school. Good professors, good crop of students, terrible Career Services.

There's at least 7 of us here in DC. Nailon and Birmingham could at least make an effort.

UA's job intranet page: Arizona, California, Rocky Mountain, Other. (WTF...Chicago, NY, DC, Atlanta, and Dallas/Houston are WAY BIGGER legal markets than AZ or Rocky Mountain).

Fire Birmingham and Nailon. Start over. Ranking will improve.

No donations from me to pay for new building until they go.

- 182.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

HELLO!?! I went to COBBLESTONE UNIVERSITY OF LAW and we were ranked #1 in Latino Outreach, and #3 in Lesbian Affairs, and #17 in Socialism Studies, so I don't think that this ranking makes much of a difference in the grand scheme of things!

I don't go to American but I think it's a great law school...better than most on this list. The students are amazingly bright, incredibly diverse (which is lacking at most top tier schools), and most importantly, a lot more fun than many of my toolish counterparts at GULC.

W&L Haters: First of all, Suck It. Having gone to W&L and now a lawyer working in NYC and doing NYU Tax LLM evening, I prefer W&L. I think the faculty are on the whole better teachers who rather live in a small-town than New York. W&L doesn't pretend to be Yale (or NYU) but it's a very good school. Second, I have worked with lawyers and students from many law schools, ranked higher and lower than W&L, and W&L's students are just as smart and educated. The fact that W&L or any school moves in the rankings every year doesn't really signify any great change. Do you really think Indiana changed enough to deserve a 13 place jump? Next, the third year program, if you knew anything about it, is not an attempt to game the system but a way to actually teach students how to be lawyers. People may criticize it yet most everyone complains when they leave law school they don't actually know how to be a lawyer so it doesn't make sense to criticize this new approach. And yes you still get exposed to the same law school teaching methods in 1L and 2L year and partly 3L year. Fourth, while W&L does have some students transfer (as was was mentioned yesterday, usually to UVA), most of those kids that transfer aren't missed. They're just people who couldn't get into UVA in the first place and use W&L to transfer. UVA is a great school and no one at W&L pretends that it's better than UVA . I think for the most part there's mutual respect. Last, that guy who was commenting yesterday, Fugitive or whatever, is a goon who obviously has some pent-up issues. Some people from NYC may come to Lexington and not love it and then talk trash when they're the idiots who come to southwestern Virginia and then are surprised when it turns out not to be like the East Village. Probably 98% of the people who have gone to W&L love it, and most people now at least begrudgingly like "Hot Rod" and I have never heard the administration mention they keep the classes small to boost rankings. The fact is W&L is and always has been a small law school in a small town and because it's the smallest highly ranked law school, that makes it unique.

Davis is terribly overrated. Jumping nine spots from 44 to 35! What a bunch of shit. It's a great school for BigAnimalLaw, but don't expect to get a V100 offer from there.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

181, not making it up, but if it makes you feel better to think I'm making it up then run with that feeling.

Tulane is the most understated school of the bunch. Excellent Nat'l reputation + tons of alumni in firms and gov't + 150 years of existence means that rankings don't really matter for TLS.

Tulane is the most understated school of the bunch. Excellent Nat'l reputation + tons of alumni in firms and gov't + 150 years of existence means that rankings don't really matter for TLS.

Tulane is the most understated school of the bunch. Excellent Nat'l reputation + tons of alumni in firms and gov't + 150 years of existence means that rankings don't really matter for TLS.

Fugitive -

97 here. There are a number of things I could say, but I will limit myself to this: I truly feel sorry for you on about every level. You are incredibly full of hatred and arrogance. That is no way to live your life.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

194, you should judge people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin (so-called "diversity").

I'm constantly amazed at how many snobs there are out there. If you've done well at any of these schools, you can get get into most, if not all, major law firms. I would much rather take a go-getter from one these schools than a spoiled rich kid that got into a T-14 school because Daddy knows the Dean or because he got lucky on the LSAT.

Partner Emeritus's stats: B.S., Yale, Economics. J.D., American University. LL.M., Columbia University.

I left out his community college experience before Yale. He also transferred to American. Explains a lot.

At least when I was applying 5+ years ago (damn, its been that long?) I considered BC, BU, GW and Fordham as all more or less equivalent. I am skeptical that BU's 20 vs. Fordham's 30, for example, is more important than where their alumni work as far as finding jobs.

BC gave me much more $$$ so they were the winners. It was a good decision.

I rue the day I did not go to BYU. My debt would have been about $25K instead of the $130K I spent at Gtown and my current firm likes to hire from BYU. But, my Gtown diploma is big and written in Latin, so that makes up for it.
But, I do hear that the top students at BYU can be very competitive. Many were accepted to higher ranked schools but went to BYU for the money.
Surprisingly, BYU has a good track record for Supreme Clerks that belies their ranking.

Every UVA grad I have worked with in DC is obnoxious.

Northwestern '04

Cardozo chicks are crazy for the ass pounding. They can't get enough of it. Why is this?

99: RE WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL

Madison, WI is highly regarded and highly recommended, but it's not for everyone... specifically single people between 25-30 (but no mid-size city would suit this crowd). It's consistently ranked as one of the best places to live in the country and boasts a fairly robust food, music, sports, and arts scene, not to mention the special events: Freakfest on State Street, Football Saturdays, Mifflin Block party, etc. As for the overall school, its Big Ten stature ensures: no shortage of hot undergrads, a healthy drinking culture supported by 20-30 bars within a stone's throw of the law school, and a ranking among the best party schools every year. Oh, and it's on a lake.

During school, UW students work in the school's well respected clinics, nearby courts such as Wisconsin Supreme Court, state agencies, USAO, and law firms (you'd be surprised, there are a few former SCOTUS clerks around here). If you want employment flexibility, the school is close to Chicago-Minneapolis-Milwaukee and places students in DC/NY. Hardly the middle of nowhere, but why am I trying to convince a douche like you to come ruin the Midwest's best kept secret?

LockeLord is where SMUs go to die.

205, diversity means more than just race

Number 19 - your analysis ignores the facts. Diller left Fordham, where he was NOT the top Dean, to become the TOP dean at Cardozo. It is a career improvement because he is getting a higher ranking job, not because the school is better. Assuming you are a lawyer (or hope to be one), you may want to do your factual due diligence first or else you will arrive at faulty conclusions your entire career. Based on your comment, I am guessing you went to or are currently at Cardozo. If Cardozo wants to improve, maybe they need to start teaching guys like you the basics like knowing the factual context before conducting the legal analysis.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

"NO good law firm would hire GMU students" - I am confused then by what a good law firm is considering this year, GMU placed students are Wilmer Hale, Latham, Jones Day, etc etc etc... White & Case... etc etc etc. So here again is a good example of someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt mean GMU is some powerhouse at placing students, its not but if you do well and have a personality, you will get a nice job. What constitutes a good firm is all about perception I suppose. Mason is still mostly a regional player though in DC and NOVA biglaw - places VERY few grads in NY or otherwise; that's the truth.

In fact, I am going to an Amlaw top 100 firm myself this summer - from GMU, imagine that. I dont know what the prospects are after that but? we'll see, I'm in with everyone else at this point.

As for the argument that American grads outnumber GMU grads in firms; that argument demonstrates why you didnt get into GMU becuase your LSAT wasn't high enough - perhaps there are other reasons including GMU's youth or the difference in the size of the classes.

I've talked to multiple people at American this year (2Ls) going through fall recruiting and at American, you needed to be in the top 5 or 10% to get a sniff. At Mason, top 1/3 and you were getting a good number of interviews.

I have no misconceptions about Mason or any other school on this list. I think people are right, they are more regional and they public. All I know is this: I will be making the same amount as someone from UVA, Yale, Harvard etc and I will have only 50K in student loans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they will make it and I wont, i dont know. But I know that I also have no fear for mobility in this economy because my loans are so small (in relativity). The elitist thing is great and good but its not for me and I know my role. I also know that I gave great thought in where I went to law school and I only applied to W&M, UVA and GMU. I got into two of the three and chose the one I thought right for me.

As for the other schools on this list, I enjoy the banter a lot but I love blind statements about how crappy a school is. No one knows how crappy a school is or isnt. Alabama has options to work in some Amlaw 200 firms in Birmingham etc. Athens (UGA) has great options in Atlanta, they are a big part of Atlanta firms. Etc. So people on here talking trash are funny; mostly probably are at Appalachain Law School or somewhere else and couldnt make it into a law school with job prospects. These are good, CHEAP schools and yes you do have to do well to get big money but why is that people assume that only big money is good law? I was just interning for a judge and saw a biglaw partner get his ASS WHOOPED by local counsel LOL. In fact, I saw that about 5 times in one semester so I must be missing something.

Good luck, I hope that partners continue to see what good work that GMU puts out so that we get back to our hopeful #32 spot!!! LOL.

Alabama Law School's intent,
Is to teach a would-be defendant,
That their excuse,
For domestic abuse,
Is that it's the 11th Commandment.
- Above the Limerick

217= subtle anti GMU trolling

Clearly Wisconsin needs to engage in more overt class-size "selectivity" manipulation like a certain peer school to the south does *cough*Illinois*cough*.

The US News ranking spat re: Big 10 schools is hilarious. Outside of their OCI's, they all go to the same coastal job fairs with the exact same cutoff criteria. Literally; the bids come in together. Not only that, I've seen USC get the same treatment as Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois despite the alleged "prestige." Hint: No one even *likes* USC outside of SoCal.

If you are not T14, make decision based on location and cost.

Number 19 - your analysis ignores the facts. Diller left Fordham, where he was NOT the top Dean, to become the TOP dean at Cardozo. It is a career improvement because he is getting a higher ranking job, not because the school is better. Assuming you are a lawyer (or hope to be one), you may want to do your factual due diligence first or else you will arrive at faulty conclusions your entire career. Based on your comment, I am guessing you went to or are currently at Cardozo. If Cardozo wants to improve, maybe they need to start teaching guys like you the basics like knowing the factual context before conducting the legal analysis.

209,
I hear that from all of my Mormon friends that went back east for law school and have debt several times mine. I only kinda liked BYU, but the price is unbeatable for what you get.

probably should have taken the full ride at cardozo over no money at a top 10

214, true, but race has always been the most important factor when people talk about "diversity," especially the "diversity" of a student body in comparison to a higher-ranked school.
Or perhaps you think when he said the student body was diverse he meant there was much diversity of political opinions and food preferences (apparently unlike those at top tier schools).

What kind of name is Elie anyway? Like Eli or Ellie? Get with the program

178- you are either making it up, being lied to, or there is something more to the story. If you are in the top five at Alabama, you are choosing between federal clerkships and top area firm or bigger market firms. If you really had a personality disorder or something, any medium sized firm in the area would still pick you up. Alabama's 9 month employment rate is 97-98%.

Oh good Lorde Locke. Harry Wildman has been multiple posting again. Must be one for each of his wives from BYU.

Please moderate. And send a wife or two this way.

For BigLaw in the Bay Area, the right choice is Hastings over Davis. No doubt about it.

Number 19 - your analysis ignores the facts. Diller left Fordham, where he was NOT the top Dean, to become the TOP dean at Cardozo. It is a career improvement because he is getting a higher ranking job, not because the school is better. Assuming you are a lawyer (or hope to be one), you may want to do your factual due diligence first or else you will arrive at faulty conclusions your entire career. Based on your comment, I am guessing you went to or are currently at Cardozo. If Cardozo wants to improve, maybe they need to start teaching guys like you the basics like knowing the factual context before conducting the legal analysis.

209,
As a BYU grad, I hear that all the time from my Mormon friends on the east coast. You don't have to love BYU to love the price.

212 - 75 here. Totally agree about Madison being a fantastic town, and easy enough to get jobs in the Milwaukee/Chicago/Mpls markets. (V20 associate here). But my only grievance is with the rankings drops in recent years - which seem to be purely attributable to LSAT scores. I get that UW is a state school and should as such recruit in-state and take subpar admitees from the state, but the opposite is happening. UW goes to incredible lengths to admit low-scoring LSAT students from random places like El Paso strictly for diversity purposes.

Originally from California, went to law school in Wisconsin and can honestly say I had the time of my life. Amazing clinical opportunities, love the diploma privilege, and learned a lot. Graduated with a job in BigLaw back in Los Angeles. Go Badgers!

Also, while I can't speak for the rest of Wisconsin, Madison had very attractive people. One of the fittest cities in the nation, so I don't know where people get off calling everyone fat.

Every time I visit UVA for the softball tournament, I make sure to piss on a different building. Last year I pissed on the Rotunda as well as a plaque commemorating something about Jefferson.

Suck it, UVA.

Cornell3L

NY Law to tier 2!

Well Said 195.

The introduction of the UC-Irvine School of Law is going to cut into the selectivity of both UC-Davis and Hastings.

Also, I agree with the above poster that Tulane's prestige puts it above most of the schools ranked ahead of it on this list. I also think Cardozo should be ranked higher.

Agreed, 171. I'm a 3L at Utah, most of my friends have jobs, several of us with Vault100 firms.

I don't get the hate on people who choose these schools, I'm graduating with 8K in debt. TOTAL. Glad you all have such better access to BigLaw jobs, but guess what? I can quit mine after two months and go work for LDA if I feel like it. Enjoy your prestige and your massive debt load. Meanwhile, the folks who graduated from Utah, BYU, Arizona, etc. are laughing their assess off at you.

As for the BYU competitiveness thing, I don't know if that previous poster is right as to the "whys," but I can tell you from several friends that it's absolutely true. Some of those kids are unbelievable. Utah and BYU may be ranked pretty closely, but they are worlds apart when it comes to the attitudes of their student bodies.

170
Ha, your speculation is incorrect. During my time at W&L I harvested my girls from Sweet Briar and Hollins. I wouldn't dare touch a skank from W&L law. Likewise, I'm at a T6 so W&L wasn't even a consideration.

189
I'm sorry you went to W&L and you're career opportunities went down the shitter faster diarrhea. W&L has been and always will be a toilet. It is a well known fact that the administration brags about gaming the rankings by keeping the class size small. Also, next time you address me, have alittle respect boy as you are addressing a legend.

203
Thank you for the compliments.

W&L has ZERO lay prestige. Most have never heard of it much less the law school. Name recognition is very important.

I thought Fordham would be ranked a little higher, but in any case I really enjoyed my time there. I was just outside of the top 30% and still landed a job a Jones Day (then again, I just got canned as a 3rd year). I know a lot of Cardozo grads at JD and they are fantastic lawyers and really smart. However, I doubt I would have gotten the gig here if I was outside of the top 30% at Cardozo.

I turned down a full ride at Tulane to attend Vanderbilt, boy do I regret that. Tulane is a great example of why the US News rankings are bullshit; I’ve never met a Tulane grad who wasn’t competent and pleasant to hang out with. Prestige narrowly defined by a stupid list doesn’t pay mortgages. Wish I’d known that when I was 22 –Laid off (and bitter) in Atlanta

@167 loves fishsticks

NYC biglaw loves Fordham grads because most of them are hungry and smart and have something to prove. Some (emphasis on some) fancier LS grads are not hungry and come into the firm coasting on test results they got 4 years ago. They don't realize the race has been reset and just keep namedropping their law school, which does nothing to help the partners or clients.

190 - BIGLAW is open to more than just the top 10-20% at BYU. I know lots of BYU students in the top 20-50% with jobs at V100 firms (e.g., Linklaters, White & Case, Morgan Lewis, Jenner & Block, etc.). Only top 10-20% are competitive for firms like Cravath, Skadden, and Gibson, but BYU students generally place as well as students at T20 schools.

In terms of clerkships, BYU ranks #13 for U.S. Supreme Court clerk placement over the past 10 years, and #18 for U.S. Circuit Court clerk placement.

BYU's two biggest downfalls are: (1) a high faculty-to-student ratio because the administration is cheap as hell, and (2) low peer assessment scores, probably caused in part by regional obscurity, prejudice, political bias, etc. I can count on one hand the number of professors I had who did NOT clerk for SCOTUS. Go figure.

99: Have you seen where American WCL is? It's definitely not in DC. It's in the suburbs. With nothing around it. It's also fairly inaccessible unless you have a car or want to wait for a shuttle bus to ferry you from the metro. People complain about GULC's location, but at least it's walking distance to the metro.

W&L would still be Top 20 if the administration wasn't such a joke.

Great school, great professors, and Lexington is a very nice place to spend three years. It's got a great alumni network (small but very loyal) and if you want to work in the South it's got great name recognition (even though people do call it William & Lee sometimes, which I bet makes folks at W&M ecstatic).

If we had risen in the rankings we would have gotten an e-mail from the Dean saying "why the rankings don't accurately blah blah blah this is all because of my brilliant third year plan." So here's my question, since the opposite happened can we also blame that on your brilliant 3L plan? W&L's LSAT, GPA and selectivity all went down. Students who have other options are taking them, and I don't blame them for it.

The third year plan may turn out to be a great idea, but if W&L can't attract top students then it's going to continue to slide and it wouldn't matter if the third year plan is the best thing since sliced bread. In the upcoming years when prospective students aren't yet sure about the new third year, this is going to be very important and if the administration is smart they will budget more money for scholarships etc. over the next couple years. If they don't, then we're going to stay in the same conversations with sucky schools like American.

-W&L 3L

P.S. Glad to see all those free i-tunes downloads given away are finally paying off for the Bammer Rednecks.

Some of these schools, like George Mason and Cardozo, are relatively new. Accordingly, their alumni bases are not as well developed as some of the competing schools.

I heard a rumor that Johns Hopkins was thinking about acquiring WCL from American.

I wonder what that would do to their ranking.

Gonzaga is a powerhouse in the greater Spokane area.

Wisconsin is one of the most selective public ivies in the nation. Undergrad is extremely selective. And just behind Johns Hopkins in terms of research. Great med school, great in every science, tops in sociology, foreign language, econ, poli sci, etc. I don't think it has one program ranked outside the top 20, except for the law school. Also, Madison is gorgeous.

Marquette sucks

237 - Utah places "several" students with Vault 100 firms. Bwah hah hah! Yeah, that sounds about right. Maybe 1% of the student body lands a job with a low-end V100 firm in Salt Lake City. A GREAT DEAL, indeed!

How about New York, DC, LA, Chicago? ...

And clerkships? Maybe 1 circuit clerk every 5 years? Wow! Fantastic! You even have a professor or two from Yale? Sign me up!

Another Wisconsin 3L with a V10 offer in NYC. Madison is an awesome place to live, the law school is great (though they can do better with combating the rankings slide), and my debt is about half the size (and maybe even less) of most of the people I will be working with. People can look down on me for going to Wisconsin if they want, but I only have to say one thing: Enjoy those mortgage sized student loan payments.

Utah is easily the most selective Rocky Mountain Public Ivy around.

My roommate in college went directly into Tulane's JD/MBA program when we graduated. He had a 3.9 MBA GPA and now practices big law in NYC. I visited him once for Mardi Gras and had a blast-- but I honestly don't remember much from the experience.

I'm in the top 15% at Cardozo and will be starting at Simpson Thacher.

One of the things that was really great about W&L was that it attracted a really loyal core group of faculty. They were often some of the hardest professors, but they were really good teachers and were well respected because of it. Sadly, many seemed to have left over the past few years. I don't know whether that's because of the third year plan or new dean, who I admittedly met only briefly but struck me as one of the more smarmy snakeoil salesmen around. It could very well be because it was just time for some of those professors to move on.

Regardless, though, I think it's troublying that W&L seems to have a very high faculty turnover rate in recent years. The professors aren't as invested. Love or hate the new curriculum, there are fewer voices who have the respect and tenure sufficient to really vet the changes. I hear rumblings that faculty turnover has let to rubber stamping of the Dean's proposals because no one can effectively stand up (and those that do are run off). A school that prides itself on openness and discussion, represented by the "speaking tradition," seems to have gone in the opposite direction where it matters most.

One of the things that was really great about W&L was that it attracted a really loyal core group of faculty. They were often some of the hardest professors, but they were really good teachers and were well respected because of it. Sadly, many seemed to have left over the past few years. I don't know whether that's because of the third year plan or new dean, who I admittedly met only briefly but struck me as one of the more smarmy snakeoil salesmen around. It could very well be because it was just time for some of those professors to move on.

Regardless, though, I think it's troublying that W&L seems to have a very high faculty turnover rate in recent years. The professors aren't as invested. Love or hate the new curriculum, there are fewer voices who have the respect and tenure sufficient to really vet the changes. I hear rumblings that faculty turnover has let to rubber stamping of the Dean's proposals because no one can effectively stand up (and those that do are run off). A school that prides itself on openness and discussion, represented by the "speaking tradition," seems to have gone in the opposite direction where it matters most.

244--"but BYU students generally place as well as students at T20 schools" Really?! Not true.

I graduated BYU Law in 2004. I know for a FACT that only a handful outside of the top 25% have BigLaw jobs (by handful, read "10"). Remember that the top 25% is only 38 students. Of the 38, maybe 25 had jobs paying right at the top of the market.

That in no way compares to the opportunities available to students coming out of a T20, who place thousands each year at the top of the legal market.

HOWEVER, I will NEVER regret having come out of BYU with what the legal market looks like now. I came out of BYU with NO debt. Tuition was only $2.5k a semester. One summer clerkship paid for all 3 years of school and books.

On another note, BYU is competitive for one reason, and one reason only: Only the top 20% get snatched up for OCI. The competitiveness only sets in after first semester grades come out. When it dawns on everyone that they're paying FULL tuition (even though it's peanuts in comparison) to discover which 30 students are going to get six-figure jobs, the bloodbath begins.

Utah is a powerhouse among South Salt Lake PI firms.

No one is happy at Hastings. The students are so cutthroat. People are chill at Davis.

I cornholed a UVA chick once when she was passed out in the quad next to a keg.

@258

Your last paragraph sums up why all non T20 schools are a SCAM.

There should be some sort of repayment plan where the top of the class repays those that were used to reveal who was "worthy" to receive a high paying job.

At least there should be a disclaimer to entering students at most schools that tells them that most will not wind up making any more after law school than they would have if they had not gone to law school.

Remember when Indiana - Bloomington used to be on this list?

259 FTW!

Hastings is not cutthroat and you don't have to be next to cows (Davis)... but there are no undergrad skirts

EVERYONE in UTAH owns a trampoline.

Does BYU have a trampoline on campus?

Elie, please investigate.

266--confirmed. It's next to the diving board.

--Elie

228, I disagree. It's harder to get a Bay Area biglaw offer from Hastings because the school has double the students, most of which are more competitive, and the curve is awful. I don't think the fact that Hastings gets more offers means it is a better choice for Bay Area biglaw.

@261 - I think that was me, thanks a lot.

Pros and Cons of Being a Terp:

Pro: Get to make fun of kids who go to American and pay through the nose, as compared to my in-state tuition at a better school.

Con: Get made fun of by kids at American for living in Baltimore (very valid point).

Pro: Being the BIG fish in a pretty big legal bowl in Baltimore rather than playing fifth fiddle to Georgetown, GW, George Mason, and UVA.

Con: Did I mention I live in Baltimore?

Pro: Getting paid this summer like I live in DC or NYC without paying $2K+ a month for rent.

248: tell us more about the Johns Hopkins-WCL rumor. It seems pretty unlikely. GULC, which is located within walking distance of the MARC train from Baltimore, already has a joint JD-MPH program with JHU. Politically, there are similarities between JHU's grad programs in DC and WCL, but what's in it for JHU? JHU has the one of the most prestigious public health programs in the country as well as top-notch med school and undergrad. There would definitely be a prestige-disparity problem. This sounds an awful lot like the rumor that Dartmouth was going to acquire Vermont Law (that's an analogous prestige gap-becomes-barrier situation).

Although, as a current WCL student, I have to admit that would be an awesome development for WCL (but highly, highly unlikely).

Ohio State is a great bargain for out of state students compared to similarly ranked schools. Out of state students are eligible to receive in-state tuition after their first year, this significantly reduces debt load.

Ohio State is a great bargain for out of state students compared to similarly ranked schools. Out of state students are eligible to receive in-state tuition after their first year, this significantly reduces debt load.

re: WCL/Johns Hopkins:

There was a time, before WCL joined forces with AU, where WCL thought that JH was a possible partner. It didn't happen for whatever reason.

But as AU continues to stagnate, and as WCL continues to rise, the Administration finds it more and more difficult to remain under the AU umbrella. As it is, WCL makes every effort to distance itself from AU, with some justification.

Would Johns Hopkins welcome WCL to its team? That's a topic for debate; I don' t see why not. WCL has a lot going for it, and it would create headlines for both parties. Is WCL making any effort on this? Unknown.

184 nailed it.

Whoever said Alabama is the only school not listed alphabetically must be from Alabama. Your school is actually called the University of Alabama. The first letter is U, so it is listed alphabetically.

Those who have said it is all about a location/cost analysis at this level are correct. There are some Big Ten/Pac Ten schools, which, I am sure, are fine institutions but don't manage to get their grads into BigLaw jobs in top markets at nearly the clip that Fordham, AU and their ilk manage. But if you want to get a job at the best firms in Milwaukee, Iowa City, Indianapolis, Columbus, Tucson, etc., you could do worse for your price of admission.

When you get right down to it, these types of lists are a little preposterous. Maybe you can pick a "top 15" for "national" law schools and top 5s for certain programs like Tax LLMs, but the best you can do for the rest is try to determine the pecking order for regional markets (which is exactly the mode many commenters fall into instictively). If you want the best chance for success in California, I would avoid Mason. Ditto for any UC-nowhere or Southern school if you are interested in the East Coast.

I went to W&L Law. I don't intend to bait trolls with my comments so that I can argue with them, but I would like to add a few things in case any prospective student is looking for actual information regarding the school other than what a "toilet" it is or that Elie isn't impressed with it. I, and many other W&L grads who were there during the same time frame, ended up at AmLaw 100 firms. I am still at an AmLaw 50 firm, and thankfully, was able to pay off my loans in just a few years since I did not have to borrow massive amounts of money to attend W&L. That was the right choice for me, it does not mean that I think it is the right fit for everyone, especially if you want to be in a metropolitan area with lots to do or have a spouse who wants to hold a regular job while you are in law school.

Several years ago, a lot of W&L Law grads were going to places like DC, Atlanta, and Charlotte. It was not necessarily the best school to go to if you were looking to work in NY or LA. Even so, I don't recall having many classmates who were looking to work at small firms in Virginia, although if that was their goal more power to them, it's not like it would have been a flawed choice. It was definitely a "regional school" in terms of placement, but not the backwoods hole with a bunch of toothless bumpkins that some of the people on this blog are making it out to be. Yes, people do ask you from time to time what "William and Lee" or "Washington and Mary" was like, especially if you are outside of the Southeast/DC area. Hopefully you have a thick enough skin not to be offended by something that trivial if you have any hopes of working in Biglaw someday.

As for the undergrad versus law school issue, yes, it is true that many W&L undergrads who are currently in school look down upon the law school students as dorks, unfashionable, etc. However, since I graduated, I have received assistance from several W&L undergrad graduates with a lateral job search. W&L people often have very fond memories of the school and their experiences there, so the juvenile undergrad versus law school attitude seems to fade away over time (on both sides). In addition, I wanted to note that the W&L Law career center was very helpful a couple of years ago when I contacted them for assistance with a lateral job search, and that friends of mine who went to other law schools were very surprised that I was able to get that type of help post-graduation.

Anybody want to meet up in the lobby to discuss law school rankings and have some sex?

KAshLo8steR

American University, Washington College of Law is first alphabetically in a tie.

So switching to JohnnyHopscotch Law wouldn't help on that front.

258: I call bullshit.

I'm in the top 40% at BYU and I'll be working for a top UK firm in New York City. My friend (also top 40%) will be starting at Jenner in Chicago. Granted, students below the top 25% have to work harder to impress during interviews, but the cutoff for BIGLAW is much lower than you suggest. Sorry if it didn't work out for you.

I definitely think BYU is competitive with schools like Washington, Emory, Minnesota, and UCLA as far as BIGLAW placement goes (i.e., "the T20" range schools)

The problem with BYU is that nobody wants to leave the mountain west "bubble." About 70% choose to practice in Utah, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, and California. There are tons of opportunities for BYU students outside "Happy Valley," but nobody will leave.

Mormons

Hastings blows as it's bar passage rate has been smoked by USF the last two years.

As between Davis and Hastings, I would have to say that Hastings is better for Biglaw.

1. Hastings used to be ranked higher, and this memory remains in the minds of may judges/older partners.
2. Many Davis students are public interest oriented, as they are so close to California's capitol. That, plus the time it takes to drive all the way out to Davis is a disincentive for employers to go out there.
3. If SF is far away from Davis, the significant Silicon Valley legal market is even further away from Davis. It's arguable that Davis isn't even in the same "region" as Silicon Valley.

I got into both, but I chose Hastings ultimately for the better employment prospects.

-Hastings 3L / incoming Biglaw cog

Judging by the class I graduated with, W&L places at least 25% of the class in NYC/DC firms. A lot of other people that could go to big firms in big cities choose not to (they're able to because they don't have as much debt).

Hastings blows as it's bar passage rate has been smoked by USF the last two years.

Hastings blows as it's bar passage rate has been smoked by USF the last two years.

As between Davis and Hastings, I would have to say that Hastings is better for Biglaw.

1. Hastings used to be ranked higher, and this memory remains in the minds of may judges/older partners.
2. Many Davis students are public interest oriented, as they are so close to California's capitol. That, plus the time it takes to drive all the way out to Davis is a disincentive for employers to go out there.
3. If SF is far away from Davis, the significant Silicon Valley legal market is even further away from Davis. It's arguable that Davis isn't even in the same "region" as Silicon Valley.

I got into both, but I chose Hastings ultimately for the better employment prospects.

-Hastings 3L / incoming Biglaw cog

145 - That's not how it has been for me. UGA grads have been great to me, the UGA connection worked well in ATL, Charlotte, Athens, Greenville, etc. And I found my classmates to be good people. Maybe your year was different. I don't know, but for the price, it was a great deal for me. I get paid the same as the UVA, W&M, Duke and Harvard people I work with.

281: I think you mean "I call b.s."

Also, though I have heard that many people turn down T14 schools to go to BYU, if you do you're an idiot.

17,

UGA gets clerks into the Supreme Court. UGA has in the past, and you should check out the clerks beginning next term, should you like to confirm.

17,

UGA gets clerks into the Supreme Court. UGA has in the past, and you should check out the clerks beginning next term, should you like to confirm.

17 - Look at the recent past with UGA and the SCOTUS and I think you will be very surprised.

Isn't UGA's mascot the BULLOBSTER?

American: best DC law school in this thread
Maryland: close second for DC, best for Maryland
George Mason: good for NoVa, ignored in DC

288, you're a bit off.

1. The rankings disparity is negligible. No firm cares about the difference b/w ranks 25ish-50ish.

2. The fact that many Davis students are public interest oriented makes it easier for those who are biglaw oriented to get biglaw offers. Much less competition.

3. Davis is definitely in the same region as SF/SV. Tons of firms from SF/SV go to Davis' OCI every year. That's like saying LA law students can't get jobs in OC/SD.

Most people think Hastings has better employment prospects, and that's why Hasting attracts many students that want to go into biglaw. Personally, I think the smart move is to go to Davis, where the employment prospects are just as good, but you just don't have to fight as hard to get a biglaw offer.

18/106. W & L's best days are probably behind it. The 3L program is going to do tremendous damage, both in the short term and long term. And that 60 rising 3L students of 130 refused to participate, with a steady drumbeat of pro-practice 3L program evangelism from the dean and faculty (see www.law.wlu.edu/thirdyear) gives you a sense of the skepticism that student-consumers have toward this. Plus, a practice based program in NYC or LA? That's one thing. In Lexington, VA, a town of 7,000? Quite another. No Cravath or Wilmer partner is going to burn a precious sabbatical on running a clinic (or simulated clinic) at W & L over spending four months in Tuscany. Also, no top 25 school has any program like this, nor are any schools in this cohort even considering it. It's exclusively a feature of third and fourth tier schools. Also, UCLA isn't replacing the third year with practice; it's replacing practice with practice. Big difference; apples to oranges! In the end, turning red and stamping your feet won't change the facts: the 3L program is going to preclude W & L from ever regaining its former (circa 2002) 18 ranking.

These posts are so f---ing boring. Law school rankings are simple. T3. T10. T14 or 15. Everywhere else. If you think more than a tiny fraction of BigLaw partners or associates know or keep track of whether a school is tier 2 or 3, or the comparative rank of schools ranked anywhere out of the top 10-15, you're sadly mistaken.

Ohio State (Moritz) needs to get its act together when it comes to the business/corporate/commercial law areas. When it does, expect to see it rise (again) in the rankings. Rose, Garvin, and Oesterle are good, but we ran off Walt (after one semester). Let's double number of professors in these areas. Are you reading this Dean Michaels?

285-

"at least 25%" of the W&L class???! See http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20Planning/FINAL%20Class%20of%202008%20STATISTICAL%20REPORT%20OCP%203.24.09%20(Web).pdf

Of 141 W&L graduates in 2008: 12 to NYC plus 14 to DC is less than 20%

And it will be worse in years to come now that firms are scaling back on hiring.

At least USF has really hot girls. Hastings blows.

Let's all argue about who is the smartest kid with down syndrome!

I went to Mason. I wish I hadn't. Not because it isn't a good school. I think it is a great school. It is because I graduated to become a lawyer and now I am forced to work every day with the same kind of douche bags that routinely post to this forum.

Let's all argue about who is the smartest kid with down syndrome!

112: I think 97 & 109 has the right view on W & L's new third year curriculum; it will probably cost the school on the US News front. If the administration and faculty think that they have a better approach, even if prospective students and law professors (who know KNOTHING) at other schools disagree. There is something admirable, even noble, about committing to an idea and following through with it, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks about it. Fugitive does not seem to get this concept. . .

Hastings is great. People talking about undergrad tail are deluded. Undergrad chicks rarely, if ever, go for grad meat. Hastings, however, boasts truly fine and diverse women to choose from. If I didn't love my wife so much I'd be cursing myself for getting married before coming back to school.

Job prospects are all well and good, but we're talking about three years of our lives. I'll take the fun school in the fun city any day. Plus Hastings is closer to the action.

I've been really impressed with the administration at Cardozo. Their whole pitch about not being entrenched in past policies has turned out to be true (in my opinion at least).

Brigham Young Universittty!

I'll tell you how pathetic this Fugitive loser is: he "harvests" girls?? And then you get them from Sweetbriar and Hollins? Hollins is well-known for being full of lesbians (not that there's anything wrong with that, Costanza) and it, like Sweetbriar, is almost an hour away. So you drove that far for girls that go to an all female college? Real cool

285-

"at least 25%" of the W&L class???! See http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20Planning/FINAL%20Class%20of%202008%20STATISTICAL%20REPORT%20OCP%203.24.09%20(Web).pdf

Of 141 W&L graduates in 2008: 12 to NYC plus 14 to DC is less than 20%

And it will be worse in years to come now that firms are scaling back on hiring.

Is morally equivalent to dislike Cardozo because of all the jews as it is to dislike BYU because of all the Mormons.

If possible I'd prefer toa void both, but dont want to be a jerk about it.

I dipped my balls in a mint julep once and then did a UVA chick in the ass before Evidence.

Let's rank these schools in terms of the quality of their respective football programs... UTAH UTES Motherfuckers!

Fordham sucks. Not a single person who goes there would have gone there had they got in to Columbia/NYU. Therefore, they are inferior in every way to students from those aforementioned schools.

However, they can still gloat about being ranked about such notable TTT's as Cardozo, Brooklyn and Pace.

Ohio, Wisconsin and the SEC schools would whip the shit out of Utah on the football field

Gotta say I don't get the W&L hate around here. I'm from NYC and it was a bit of a shock for the first few weeks being in the country, but after the initial shock it was great! Your neighbors talk to you and invite you over for dinner or a beer, you're not terrified of jogging alone at night, and the town is adorable. As for the law schools recognition or ability to place people, sure, not everyone is going to know the name of a law school whose entire student body is smaller than most people's high school class, but I graduated BOTTOM 50%, no LR or journal, and career services still got me a job starting at 145k a year a few years back when I graduated at a firm that was my top choice. Not too many other schools that I know of can still place their bottom percentiles in at the highest paying firms...

246:256:257 You have the right analysis; in fact, if the current law students had a committee to run the school, W & L would be ranked higher than 30 this year! Kind of odd that a school with a speaking tradition and also a fundamental commitment to a liberal arts model of legal education would take such a bizarre turn. Maybe "sad" is a better adjective. . .

170 et al.: Fugitive from Justice is Partner Emeritus doing another shtick. Don't feed this one, Partner Emeritus was way more entertaining.

310,

I hadn't seen that link. I was counting people I know who are doing clerkships but have firm jobs lined up for after them. That makes my initial count correct, confirmed by your link.

256-

What senior professors have left W&L in the last several years to go elsewhere? All of my top professors from law school are either still teaching (Sundby, Massie, Calhoun, Grunewald, Danforth, Millon, Murchison, etc.), moved to "emeritus" status but still around (McThenia, Kirgis, etc.), or dead (Groot, Halper - may they both rest in peace). I have not seen a sudden departure of senior faculty since Dean Smolla's arrival. From what I understand, the faculty is much happier with him than they were with Dean Partlett.

I went to Mason and did very well there (top 5). I hated every minute of it. The professors (with VERY few exceptions) were awful. The school didn't care. Every year the rankings come out, I wait for GMU to fall hard. I keep expecting that the good folks who handle the rankings will finally remove the wool that's been over their eyes. No luck so far. Graduates don't donate to the school because they have no good feelings about the school when they leave. It's a commuter school and it is not one I would recommend if you can get in anywhere better. I've heard the professors at lower ranked schools (Catholic, etc.) are better. It does not have a good reputation among law firms yet and I don't think it will anytime soon. It sucks for the grads coming and trying to break into the DC market when you have so many other schools fighting with you (and winning)--Georgetown, GW, American, UVA, W&M, etc.

-309

I did not attend W&L undergrad or law school, but I did go to school next door. In my experience, "harvest" is the proper verb to use when referring to the easy pickings from Hollins, Sweet Briar, and the other two or three women's colleges in the immediate area. And by the way, there is no need to travel an hour-they come to you.

Yeah some of those people who left W&L weren't good anyway. Dorothy Brown, Zaring, Daryl Brown?? Come on. Lyman P.Q. Johnson is still there. And good people are coming in, Robin Wilson, Josh Fairfield.

-309

I did not attend W&L undergrad or law school, but I did go to school next door. In my experience, "harvest" is the proper verb to use when referring to the easy pickings from Hollins, Sweet Briar, and the other two or three women's colleges in the immediate area. And by the way, there is no need to travel an hour-they come to you.

-309

I did not attend W&L undergrad or law school, but I did go to school next door. In my experience, "harvest" is the proper verb to use when referring to the easy pickings from Hollins, Sweet Briar, and the other two or three women's colleges in the immediate area. And by the way, there is no need to travel an hour-they come to you.

While Mason and W&L are fine institutions, a number of partners at my BigLaw firm frown upon them because they tend to be on the conservative side of the spectrum. Mason specializes in the law and economics side of the spectrum, an ideology which continues to plummet with the death of supply side economics.

As for the rest, who cares? I've found the best people to work with are those that actually enjoyed law school. I continually find that graduates of Vandy, American, Tulane, and Virginia seem to be the happiest while GULC, GWU, HLS, and Penn always seem to be miserable.

I have to say the happiest graduate I ever saw graduated from Wake Forest. He explained to me that Wake undergrads were the best looking and there were 15 public golf courses within ten miles of Wake. Now that's a real education.

Anyone who harvests chicks is a loser

297-

What you and others need to understand about the new W&L 3L curriculum is that it is NOT a “clinical” curriculum in any way shape or form. It does not involve work on mundane little problems for the good people of Rockbridge County. W&L is not forming any new legal clinics as part of this curriculum (although many of its very respected clinical programs – Black Lung, Virginia Capital Case Clearinghouse – will be options in the 3L year. The 3L curriculum is intensive legal education dealing with complex legal and factual issues presented in the CONTEXT of law practice. So using a complex M&A transaction to delve into securities issues, tax issues, intellectual property, real estate, ethics, etc. The source materials for the class are not legal clinic workbooks or some such; they are actual case files for actual cases, deals, etc. from actual lawyers. So, in short, the 3L curriculum is designed to expose the students to the complexities of the practice of law on a level and in a depth that has heretofore not existed.

Mason is very highly regarded for the quality of its IP program, both in terms of theory and practice, both in DC and nationwide. It's not as disdainful towards practical patent skills as Georgetown, which, IMO, does not produce patent lawyers with nearly as much skill (though mad props to Duffy, who is fantastic). Where was now-Judge Kimberly Moore teaching before her nomination and confirmation to Fed. Cir.? It wasn't any of the other schools in the area. The combination of the full-time IP faculty, and the amazing practitioners who teach the practice-oriented upper-level classes are fantastic.

American's IP program (if you could even really call it that) is riddled with muddled emoting about how IP screws over the third world and poor people and fails to teach solid practical skills or useful applicable theories to its students who want to practice in IP. The viewpoint and structure of its IP program is nothing but anti-globalization anti-property rights intellectual masturbation for wannabe would-be (if they went to a decent law school) academics. Look at their recent events, like "WCL Hosts 2009 IP/Gender Conference on 'Female Fan Culture and Intellectual Property'". Don't take my word for it, see for yourself -- http://www.wcl.american.edu/pijip/index.cfm and http://www.wcl.american.edu/pijip/go/research . That's their whole perspective on IP law. It's fine for the academy, but produces utterly ineffective IP professionals.

It's an embarrassment, and I would need a hell of a lot more in terms of substantive legal coursework, GPA (and yes, American has substantial grade inflation, especially compared to the notoriously stingy GMU GPA) and scientific background to pick an American alum for an IP spot over a Mason or GW alum. As a federal law clerk, the writing samples we've been sent from American students are routinely lackluster, just like their resumes. We have not even interviewed any American alumni for a clerkship or internship because, frankly, they've been a pretty unimpressive lot.

In contrast, we're big fans of hiring Mason students -- they all have 2 full years of legal writing, plus an additional seminar/writing intensive course. They all come out knowing how to write and how to confront actual issues. They know how to come down on an issue based on the facts and the law. We've also been pretty impressed with our GW picks (like my current co-clerk). All of our semester interns have been from GW and GMU (about evenly-split), and 2/3 of our summer interns all 3 of my summers.

Yes, American may have more people at federal agencies. But that's not a feature, that's a bug -- they're people who couldn't hack it in firm life. American also has a much larger, longer-established, longer-established alumni network and much larger class size. What's that line I keep hearing for financial stuff? "Past performance is not indicative of future results." Fact is, GMU is cranking out better students and has a much stronger faculty both full time and adjunct. Anybody who thinks American is as good as Mason is living about a decade in the past. Take a look at clerkship data and current job hiring (whether or not you normalize it to class size) -- it's telling, and very unfavorable to American. How has American's bar passage rate been the last few years? Not as good as Mason's, and not even in the neighborhood.

And, of course, this doesn't include the price of the schools: Mason is a bargain out of state, and a steal in-state; American is just a ripoff. There's a reason that Mason's bar passage rate has been so high, well above the VA average, and was the best school in the state in July '07 (yes, better than UVA, W&M, and Washington & Lee) http://www.law.gmu.edu/news/2007/852

322

I couldn't have said it better myself man. Although they did come to us, it was always fun taking trips over to the vagina farm.

P.S. W&L girls are usually fat and/or have busted faces. I'll take my chances with the lesbians at Hollins or the psychos at Sweet Briar.

We're all FORGETTING about HOWARD LAW in D.C.

Where are they ranked? It's GOT to be as good as Mason, no?

I chose Wake Forest over top 10 schools and dont regret anything about the decision. I feel that I got a better practical education and had an incredible time. I also had offers from the largest firms in every city on the East Coast. I expect Wake to continue its rise in the rankings, especially since our bar passage rate jumped to something like 97%. The best part about Wake is that you dont have to deal with the douches at UVA or Duke law.

Go Deacs.

Man Fugitive is a loser, I bet you preyed on the undergrad chicks too didn't you? You were that guy at the party who everyone was asking, "Who is that?" Who are you anyway, Ace??

I chose Wake Forest over top 10 schools and dont regret anything about the decision. I feel that I got a better practical education and had an incredible time. I also had offers from the largest firms in every city on the East Coast. I expect Wake to continue its rise in the rankings, especially since our bar passage rate jumped to something like 97%. The best part about Wake is that you dont have to deal with the douches at UVA or Duke law.

Go Deacs.

Fordham is an enormous TTT. I would actually rank them fifth (after Cardozo and Brooklyn) in the NYC area. Their building is in shambles, the quality of their faculty is poor, and the students seem to come primarily from New Jersey. Witness how Cardozo is a relatively new school, and it's already on track to surpass Fordham in the rankings.

69 drank too much Pearl; thanks for the laugh though!

Lets play a new game. If you say Wisconsin sucks at least say you were rejected or you went to Michigan. If you say American sucks say where you went. Because as far as I know both those schools rock.

Good faculty, great reputation, hot girls, nice students, good education. American probably has more govt lawyers then any school and Wisconsin has more CEO's. So if you are not Ivy league where do you want to be?

I dipped my balls in a mint julep once and then did a UVA chick in the ass before Evidence.

As somebody who hires in DC:
Howard, UDC, and Catholic, are not worth the price of admission coupled with the poor training/job prospects.

American is a bad deal, but may be worth it if you end up top 10% or so and want to work at a firm or don't care about pissing money away.

Mason is a sick deal (especially in-state) and still up-and-coming, with strong writing skills, IP (esp. patent) and law&econ orientation. Georgetown is the name (but beware the transfer students! Vastly increasing the class size between 1L and 2L is Georgetown's scam on US News, and it's utterly dishonest); GW produces solid, well-rounded students with excellent reasoning skills. They probably make the best practitioners, overall, followed by Mason, then Georgetown close behind (too much theory, not enough practical or rigorous writing on serious subject, even without their transfer scam), then AU well behind (but look carefully at resume/transcript to insure rigor).

As for UDC/Howard/Catholic, there are a few diamonds in the rough, but it's mostly rough.

American is an awful law school. Enough said.

I worked at a federal agency with an American law grad -- he was lazy and incompetent.

I am an '04 Mason/GMU grad. I have zero debt thanks to the very low in-state tuition rate I paid as a night student. I make a healthy six figure salary with excellent benefits that is SECURE in the Patent/IP law area. And I enjoy the work I do and the people I work with, these last two attributes apparently are the exception and not the Rule in BIGLAW practice. Supposedly surrendering such qualities of work life are part of the quid pro quo for BIGLAW salaries. I would never speak ill of any person or other program even if I had knowledge of their infirmities, unless legally or morally necessary. Its rude, unprofessional, sophomoric and very disappointing to see among members of the bar. I am greatly concerned about the lack of enlightenment that appears to prevail in the modern legal profession, despite the significant amount of education and effort it takes to enter the profession. Please realize that its not just about the school, its about what the individual derives from the school's programs in terms of knowledge and skills and then what that individual does with those knowledge and skills. If anyone wants to judge me based upon the program I've attended and use it as the deciding factor as to why they would not want it work with me, well the feeling is mutual.

335: all NY schools draw students primarily from NJ, duh

323: The three professors you named were three of W&L's top five professors in terms of publishing and citations. So you may not have loved them as professors (and really, are you going to argue with Dorothy Brown??), but they were highly respected and visible inside and outside the law school community. And for what it's worth, if they were so bad, why did they end up at Emory, UVA, and Penn, all of which were higher ranked? Oh, and one more thing, your list is missing Melissa Waters, Ron Krotoszynski, Tom Gallanis, and Blake Morant. So that's at least seven and those are just off the top of my head.

To add to 339's comment about American transcripts, see how many classes an applicant took with Anderson or were small-group paper classes. If more than 2 of either, drop them. Anderson teaches fluff classes (he's called "A for Anderson" for a reason) that add nothing to legal reasoning skills. Paper classes are nothing but "everything oppresses everyone" masturbatory aids.

I would even be wary of some of the clinical programs at WCL. A majority of them are quite valuable and reflect our high program ranking. Others...not so much.

Those students who took actual substantive classes are generally much better off. A B+ in Securities with Siegel is easily worth more in the long run than an A in Venture Capital with Anderson. So just because someone from AU has a high GPA (3.50 didn't qualify for honors last year), don't think they are automatically that good.

UNC will be a perennial T18-20 in two years; the school has righted the ship.

315 - You mean SEC schools like Alabama?

ROFL

Pacific ReporTTTer!

George Mason is a joke and never even knew it existed as a competing school in the area until after three years of law school (GW) in DC. As for some of these other schools, unless you are really trying to get into the local divorce/traffic court/spousal abuse areas of law, I have no idea why some people would go there (I'm looking at you Alabama, SMU, and Utah).

332- You expect Wake to "continue to rise" in the rankings? Really? Because the way I see it, Wake has done nothing but fall in the rankings in the past 8 years.

I graduated from Wake Law in the early 2000s. When I went there, it was ranked with BU and Fordham in the high 30s... it has done nothing but fall since. Oh, and Wake had a high bar passage rate when I was there too - - that certainly didn't help the rankings!

Also, I doubt the veracity of your statement that you got offers from "the largest firms" in every city on the East Coast - - that is, unless by "East Coast" you mean NC, DC or Atlanta. Take a look for Martindale listings for Wake grads in NYC or Boston and you will see Wake has a difficult time placing students above the Mason Dixon line.

Now, that being said, if you want to practice in the Southeast, there is no better place to go. I loved it there - - great people, great professors, beautiful place to live. But I struggled to get into Biglaw in NYC (notwithstanding Law Review, top grades and all that other bullshit stuff.) It was difficult to get a job north of the Mason Dixon line because firms in northern cities simply do not go there for 2L recruiting.

I have a hard time believing that things have changed since I left, given the fall in the rankings. I am constantly contacted by current Wake students begging for a job up north. Wake's Career Services office likes to tell people that their graduates stay in NC because "they fall in love with it and don't want to leave." Yes, NC is beautiful, but I think the out-of-staters stay because they have $100k in loans and NC is the only place they can get a job.

Again, the people and quality of education was excellent... they just need to figure a way to STOP plummeting in the rankings. Your words "continue to rise" made me spit my soda out on my keyboard! Hilarious!

345, I sense some displaced aggression about that B+ from Siegel. Not sure what your dice with Anderson is. He used to serve as counsel for George Soros and has an amazing packet of materials he puts together every semester. He even says up front that his course is a lot of times more like a business school course (which, if you know any joint MBAs, reflects his grading style).

Wake can have whatever jobs in NC that UNC folks pass up.

290: Another possible alternative is "I call bull crap" or possibly even "oh my heck you liar." I know BYU Law grads who turned down T14 schools. All of them wanted to work in Utah or the west. If you really want to work in biglaw (particularly on the east coast) and you get into a T14 school in the east, you should probably go to the T14 rather than BYU.

Of course, after four years when you are still $100,000 in debt and you want to leave biglaw, well, good luck with that.

17 said: "As a top 5%er from one of these schools, I concur that most opportunities are open (e.g., district and appellate clerkships, but not Supreme Court). But you will still have to work harder to get them than some middle of the pack student from a T14."

I don't know about the other schools (ahem, Fordham), but Cardozo, despite being having only been around for 30 years, has already had a student clerk for the Supreme Court.

See: http://spider.mc.yu.edu/news/articles/article.cfm?id=101215

@281--I thought the Honor Code required you to not be a potty mouth. Thanks for making the rest of us BYU alum proud.

344-

Professors leave schools for any number of reasons. Lexington is not for everyone. Krotoszynski and Gallanis left for endowed chairs at other schools. Brown and Brown leaving hurt. I really liked Dorothy (did not have her as a prof but met her later). But they obviously left for good gigs and, like I said, LexVegas is not for everyone. Morant does not really count as he left to become the Dean at Wake. He is still a big fan of W&L (I have talked to him about it) and is very excited (in a good way) to see how the new 3L curriculum goes.

For better or worse, lots of young, ambitious law professors use W&L as a stepping stone. Some end up staying (Sundby, Scales, Drumbl), others move on. Such is academia.

Like other schools, W&L has reloaded and brought in several very bright new professors to replace the departed. Benjamin Spencer, Josh Fairfield, Robin Wilson, etc.

This blog should be re-named the dumb ass law student and scrub blog. Seriously - everyone has to pass the same Bar exam. Law school is a joke and a waste of money. We all did it and we are all screwed for life.

315: You're right. SEC schools would probably beat up on Utah pretty badly. Especially the Crimson Tide. Alabama is wicked awesome. Sigh...

17 said: "As a top 5%er from one of these schools, I concur that most opportunities are open (e.g., district and appellate clerkships, but not Supreme Court). But you will still have to work harder to get them than some middle of the pack student from a T14."

I don't know about the other schools (ahem, Fordham), but Cardozo, despite being having only been around for 30 years, has already had 2 students clerk for the Supreme Court.

See: http://spider.mc.yu.edu/news/articles/article.cfm?id=101215

344: Brown went to UVA only because of his publishing...and yes, he is THAT bad. Atrocious. The whole class of '08 still hates him for his joke of a first year crim pro exam. Also, he'll put you to sleep in about 5 seconds flat. Totally not someone who likes to teach. And, Waters left because they wouldn't give her tenure. Can't say much about Morant, except that he basically got a promotion to go to Wake and he was the worst legal writing professor you could imagine.

356: You're absolutely right that professors leave for all sorts of reasons, though your post seems to gloss over the fact that some of those professors (Kroto, D. Brown, and Morant) actively tried to stay but their hands were forced.

Regardless, there's no need to quibble because it's beside the bigger point. W&L has lost some of its more senior and respected faculty, individuals who were willing to speak up and subject ideas to vetting. Younger facility, understandibly, don't have the ability to do that because they're too worried about security and tenure. The result in a place like W&L, where they're trying to implement some pretty major changes, is that there's less dialogue than there should be and needs to be. Dissent shouldn't be a bad thing. If the dean's ideas are that good, they'll ultimately prevail after discussion.

i am a tulane grad, and i echo the sentiments above that the school has a great national reputation (especially in NYC). also the food and laid back attitude of new orleans can't be beat. how many law school students can say they paid $400/month (apt shared with 2 other roommates for total of $1200) for rent, attended 3 jazz fests and mardi gras seasons, and had a wonderful time living in a cool city during law school?

355 - Agreed. Dear BYU Law students: cursing on a message board is an extremely weak attempt at establishing your rebellious streak and your lack of conformity with the Honor Code. Such behavior didn't make you cool in high school and it still doesn't make you cool in law school. Thanks.

351 - Nothing against Anderson personally. I'm sure he's brilliant. However, you prove my point. If an AU applicant has taken mostly Anderson's "business school" and paper classes, then 339 is absolutely correct in his/her assessment that AU grads possess lackluster legal reasoning skills, contrary to what their relatively high GPA suggests.

And yes, there is some displaced aggression. It comes from the frustration that I believe I received a better legal education than some of my peers, but a potential employer (like 339) wouldn't know it by simply comparing our respective GPAs. But until I have the clout to effect some type of grade reform, all I can do is bitch about it on ATL under the mask of anonymity.

All those glowing Tulane comments are clearly from the same low-life trying to pump up the comments for their water logged disillusion in their Ivy-league of the South law school.

Cardozo apologists have been saying for over a decade that the school is poised to catch up with/pass Fordham in the rankings. Yet, it never happens, and never will. Cardozo puts out some great attorneys, but it is not and will never be Fordham. Just as Fordham will never be NYU or Columbia.

Cardozo tries to get top students by offering generous scholarship, but most people would rather pay full price for Fordham than half price for Cardozo. Why? Better students, better faculty, better alumni network, and better recruiting.

363 = epic douche. Is that what BYU people are like? Calling each other out for violations of a draconian code of Mormon rules?

367. Yes. And relax.

361-

I don't know anything about the internal politics at work with the departures of Dorothy Brown, Darryl Brown, Kroto, etc. In talking to Morant, who got a great job as Dean at Wake, I certainly never got the impresion that he was forced out. I have to disagree with the characterization of Brown, Brown, Kroto, Waters, etc. as "senior" faculty. They were not. Dorothy Brown was certainly liked and respected as were many of the others. Waters was a junior faculty member. The true "senior" faculty at W&L -- Sundby, Murchison, Kirgis, Massie, Johnson, Millon, Calhoun -- are still there and as vocal as ever. All of them have enbraced the new curriculum. Johnson and Millon, as well as former Dean Bezanson, have publically defended it. See . . . http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/03/washington-lees.html

The posts at the above link by Profs. Johnson and Millon, Dean Bezanson and Dean Smolla show the level of internal dialoge that went on at W&L. Although I understand that Dean Smolla may have strong-armed the faculty to make the vote on adoption unanimous, he clearly had the support of a large majority at the end of the process.

51 = makes fun of marrying your cousin cause he married his mom

363-
I went to BYU and I don't use foul language, but invoking the honor code with regard to bad language in an anonymous internet comment is beyond ridiculous. Chill.

367-
Only some of them

350- I agree 100%. It was 34 when I went, and it has sunken since. I wish I never went to Wake, or... I wish I never left NC. Trying to gain gainful employment in the NE is impossible out of WFU. What a rip-off.

Go Deacs!

350- I agree 100%. It was 34 when I went, and it has sunken since. I wish I never went to Wake, or... I wish I never left NC. Trying to gain gainful employment in the NE is impossible out of WFU. What a rip-off.

Go Deacs!

366 said: "Cardozo apologists have been saying for over a decade that the school is poised to catch up with/pass Fordham in the rankings. Yet, it never happens, and never will."

Um, Fordham has been around since 1905 while Cardozo was only founded in 1979. And yet Cardozo is now only 19 slots away from Fordham even though its Alumni base is a fraction of Fordham's. At this rate it is obvious that in a few more years people will be calling Fordham the new Brooklyn sister school, while Cardozo leaves it in the dust.

Oh, and Fordham is incredibly stingy while more than half of the Cardozo class is on scholarship, many of which are very substantial.

369: Yes, I've heard all about the "open" internal dialogue, like how there were extensive committee meetings but the dean sat in on nearly every one and how he refused to let faculty vote on the 3L curriculum using secret ballots. If he's not afraid of dissent, why the strong arm tactics? If you're not afraid of losing, why require everyone to speak and vote within eyeshot of the guy in charge of hiring and firing?

UMD might not appreciate the tobacco association...http://www.law.umaryland.edu/programs/tobacco/index.html

UMD might not appreciate the tobacco association...http://www.law.umaryland.edu/programs/tobacco/index.html

Fugitive’s obsession with the W&L law school signifies nothing except his bitterness about being rejected there.

T6 dude, seriously? Then why would you care about the law school? Why do you know the name of the W&L admissions director and have such a nasty opinion of her? Most undergrads couldn’t even name the dean over there unless they had an interest in going there for law school. You've obviously had intimate dealings with W&L law admissions.

By the way, your bragging about the girls’ schools outs you as having been distinctly low caste as an undergrad – SNU, Lambda, possibly worse (as in rogue loner wearing fatigues to class and muttering to himself in the library). There were attractive girls at W&L dude, they just didn’t want to talk to you. They were too busy talking to guys who didn’t use phrases like “harvesting girls” and “vagina farm.”

355 and 363 equal Brigham Young UniversiTTTy TTTools!

375 - these are TENURED faculty members we are talking about, most of whom have outlasted a half a dozen deans. They are NOT shrinking violets scared to speak their minds because Rod was in the room. The faculty members I have talked to about the 3L curriculum -- Murchison, Grunewald, Massie, Shaunessy, McThenia and several others -- seem genuinely interested and excited about it. (Not to mention the writings by Johnson and Millon). While I don't know this for sure, my guess would be that Sundby supports it (he was always a big VC3 supporter). I wonder what Groot (RIP) would think?

I invoke the J. Golden Kimball defense.

378 - classic.

Cardozo actually has had 2 Supreme Court Clerks in its 30 year history - one as recently as 2007.

Which number is greater, the average number of OCI bids a BYU law student receives or the average number of interceptions thrown by Max Hall per game. I'm afraid the latter number is higher, so sad!

The motion to invoke the J. Golden Kimball defense is GRANTED. Feel free to unleash your vast understanding and knowledge of various profane phrases.

Seriously. Don't mess with BYU kids. Most of them (us) know how to swear in at least two languages.

Students who got into T14 schools but came to BYU anyway probably did so because they have families.
About 75% of my class is married. Of those, most had children before matriculating, and many others had children while in law school. The current Law Review board has 17 children collectively. You will not find a more family-friendly law school anywhere in the country.

Anyone who was competitive at a T14 school likely landed a scholarship at BYU. Thus, three years' tuition is probably less than $12,000. Plus, living expenses in Provo are very low. A decent three bedroom apartment only runs $800/mo. This is why I came to BYU:

T14 + living expenses for family = $200,000+ debt
BYU Law + living expenses = $45,000 debt

I have a job with a top firm in a primary market that I might not have landed even at a T14 school. BYU is a gamble for anyone who could have gone to a much better school, but it can really pay off.

I heard Tulane gives away free undergrads at mardi gras.

BYU has an unlimited number of OCI bids, but I concede that Max Hall's interception rate my exceed even that ... GO UTES!!!!!!

BYU has an unlimited number of OCI bids, but I concede that Max Hall's interception rate may exceed even that ... GO UTES!!!!!!

I heard Tulane gives away free undergrads at Mardi Gras.

Hot Rod, strong arm? He couldn't talk me into me into going to a strip club (not that he would need to). They unanimously approved the new curriculum

Phoenix is the 5th biggest city in the United States!
Check it!

And the only decent law school serving this market is the University of Arizona. AZ hosts some of the top professors and visiting legal minds who share our winters, including SCOTUS judges (multiple visits each year) and legal scholars.

Uof Arizona is completely underrated, possibly because most people who come out here end up loving the weather, pace of life and community.

Who would move to NYC, live in a cubicle, get no respect, and only to eventually get laid off? I think half the country is out of its mind!

Biggity-B

The real regional power is not on this list . It is UConn. While it is falling in the ranking, it is increasingly placing students at top firms and will soon be recognized as a top program.

378

I assure you that I was never rejected as I would never apply to such a TTT. As I have said previously, my beef is that the law school and its student body really casts a bad impression on the undergrad and hurts its prestige. I know the administration in the law school due to positions I held as an undergrad. Hilton always struck me as having below average intelligence, especially judging from the class of student she admits into the law school.

You're right that I outed myself with the talk of all women's colleges. Again, it shouldn't be hard to figure out who I am at all from the references to my background as I was involved in one of the largest incidents to occur on the campus. Once you find out who I am, you'll realize that I was neither a Lambda or a SNU. I spent my weekends shitting on guys like you at parties and kicking your ass in the classroom on weekdays. You'll discover that I was the guy banging your sister or your girlfriend behind your back. Likewise, you'll see my T6 prestige, something which you obviously couldn't obtain.

Why no comment on how NYLS (Tier 3) beat Cardozo in bar passage rate for July 2008 (and was right on the heels of Fordham)?

Fugitive From Justice, you sound like the KA mouthbreathing creep who allegedly raped a W&L sorostitute and forced her to drop out.

Fugitive From Justice, you sound like the KA mouthbreathing creep who allegedly raped a W&L sorostitute and forced her to drop out.

392 - You tool. Phoenix is not even in the top 10 legal markets. "City population" is irrelevant - you have to look at METROPOLITAN AREAS (i.e., the whole geographical market served by the legal industry in a particular city) as well as LEGAL NICHES unique the area (such as regulatory work in DC, or transactional work in NYC).

Here are the top 10 legal markets:

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles GMA
3. Washington, D.C.
4. Chicago
5. Dallas
6. Philadelphia
7. San Francisco
8. Houston
9. Atlanta
10. Boston

Phoenix might be in the top 15...

Arizona blows goats because they can't place students with firms outside of the Southwestern U.S.

397

I can assure you that I am not the individual you speak up. In it beneath me to associate with the members, or should I say snowcats, of the Kappa Alpha fraternity.

You, however, should be ashamed of yourself implying that the young lady was a prostitute. It really demonstrates what a deviant and low class individual you are.

Yet another Wisconsin 3L with a V10 offer in NYC.

People can hate all they want, but regardless, Wisconsin produces great lawyers that are competitive in every market in the country.

Oh...did I mention that I paid $15,000 a year tuition? Hmm. Great value.

Yet another Wisconsin 3L with a V10 offer in NYC.

People can hate all they want, but regardless, Wisconsin produces great lawyers that are competitive in every market in the country.

Oh...did I mention that I paid $15,000 a year tuition? Hmm. Great value.

397

I can assure you that I am not the individual you speak of. In it beneath me to associate with the members, or should I say snowcats, of the Kappa Alpha fraternity.

You, however, should be ashamed of yourself implying that the young lady was a prostitute. It really demonstrates what a deviant and low class individual you are.

398 - Philly ahead of SF (particularly if you include the Silicon Valley, as most do) and Boston? You discredited yourself there. I'm very skeptical about Dallas too, but truthfully don't know enough about Tejas to give an opinion on that.

You know that annoying "pre-law" kid who wasn't terribly smart, but really really wanted to be a lawyer in undergrad? They all ended up at Hastings. The hot blond that had nothing else to do ends up at Golden Gate.

American is the best law school on this list, comparable only to Fordham.

398 - Many firms have offices in both Menlo Park/Palo Alto/Silicon Valley ((and)) San Francisco. They're like 60-90 minutes apart, and in my mind, two distinct markets. One is primarily financial (SF), and the other is primarily IP (Silicon Valley).

If you count Silicon Valley as part of SF, then you'd have to count San Diego as part of Los Angeles, which doesn't make any sense.

And yes, Boston is pretty small. Most V50 firms don't even have offices there. Philly has about 6 million people; Boston has less than 4.5 million. San Fran has only 4.2 million (apart from Silicon Valley). DFW, on the other hand, has more than 6.5 million, and quite a few V50 firms have offices there .

64 - what is your basis for saying you'd never hire an American grad? Employers in DC (firms, government, and non-profit) typically have great things to say about American grads.

406 - For SF/SV try 35min - 1hr. Many LA firms (which you specified GMA) have a downtown and CC office as well. Not much of a difference except the very general corp/lit split -- though I'm not sure that's all that meaningful. Anyway - as you mentioned above you have to look at legal market as well (I assume you're 398). No way Philly is more important than even SV, much less SF/SV. Same for Dallas.

Your point regarding Boston is well taken, however.

American has prestige within the legal community, and the name recognition even works with laymen. Brand matters for marketing.

Yes, there are two other DC schools with higher average LSAT/GPA. One is already a well-known "diploma mill"-- diluting its own T14 pedigree with PT students and humongous class rosters. The other dropped out of the T20 once PT students were included in ranking methodology!

Which DC powerhouse climbed UP the ranking after including PT students? The American University Washington College of Law.

Maryland and George Mason are both great schools.

Fugitive -

You seem to have an explanation for everything, but I’m not sure I buy it.

Your animus for the law school is wildly disproportionate to the reason you give, i.e., some kind of disinterested concern for the reputation of the undergrad. There may be a legitimate discussion to be had about whether and to what extent the undergrad should subsidize the law school, but “infested toilet”? It’s not like Ruscio or Elrod went out and merged with Appalachian School of Law – the association with the law school goes back to the 19th c. and it has historically produced some alumni (John Davis, Lewis Powell) who are adornments to the university. Even today it has an admirable regional reputation, which is about all that can be said for the undergrad as well. If you wanted prestige you should have gone to Williams or Amherst – hell, W&L’s not even the best LAC in the South (Davidson).

In short, having a law school that basically ties W&M for second best in Virginia is no drain on W&L’s reputation. Your anger rather suggests a personal grudge. If it wasn’t rejection from the law school, then maybe you got hauled up before the EC with a law student presiding or something, or maybe a law student stole your Hollins girlfiiend, I don’t know. I just think your vulgar postings here are an embarrassment to W&L, and I’m hoping that you’re really just elaborate flame who has for some reason absorbed a ridiculous level of trivia about the school but never actually went there.

Anyway, enjoy your T6/V5/Patrick Bateman life dude

- 378

The only people who think American is a good law school are American law grads trolling this web page. Face it, if you have to justify that you went to a good law school, your law school sucks. American, George Mason, and Maryland are all terrible law schools.

Where's Roger Lou?

Golden Gate does have hot hot blonds, they just be dumb... hastings has ugly smart girls, I'll take golden gate. USF is where the tranny's go.

411- are those rejection letters keeping you up at night?

American U. grad here. Nowhere near the top of my class but still working for V50 firm. So for all you GW losers out there trolling now because you are suddenly feeling threatened that AU is only 17 behind you, LOOK OUT. WE'RE COMING FOR YOU NEXT.

Nothing but love for Mason and MD. GULC is a mighty fine school as well. Hate the GW posers.

415, as a fellow WCL alum, shut your trap. Your childish antics make me look worse than my diploma.

I'm a UW grad, working in D.C. with Ivy League colleagues. Never once have I regretted my choice to attend Wisconsin. I'd do it again in a heartbeart. Great professors, wonderful city, and fantastic lifestyle (cold winters excluded).

I'm a UW grad, working in D.C. with Ivy League colleagues. Never once have I regretted my choice to attend Wisconsin. I'd do it again in a heartbeart. Great professors, wonderful city, and fantastic lifestyle (cold winters excluded).

Mason may appear to have fewer numbers in DC biglaw, but keep in mind they have LESS THAN HALF the number of students (600) than American does (1,400). The percentage of students who get great jobs and clerkships from Mason is much higher than from American. I wish I had known this about Mason before I chose GW...

HasTTTings SUX. Never go there. We are all unhappy, hate each other, conniving, untrustworthy and mean.

That school sucks the life out of you. The only reason it gets respect is bc Firms know it is a hell hole that deflates grades and puts you through the ringer and if you come out with a decent GPA you can handle anything. A 2.9 at Hastings=3.3 at any other school. The curve is set at 2.7-2.9. To be in the top 15% (top 60 students of a 400+ person class) all you need is a 3.39. Pathetic that the school can't get its shit together and blames every rankings drop on the students and not their piss poor policies. But oh wait! The parking lot will save us! (If you go to Hastings you know what I am talking about)

Fuck that school. I am so happy to be almost out of there. That being said it is true( or at least it was) that if you want a big firm job you're better off there than Davis. Davis is a joke, they should NOT be in the top tier. Or at least they should be more like 49. Hastings was a Top 20 School until Dean Kane fucked us over. We went from 20 or 18 to below 50 and haven't been able to fight our way back. When you go there you can see why.

If you like meth heads or base heads, walking past human feces on your way to school or enjoy seeing people shoot up heroin then this is the school for you.

For years now, people at Hastings have been pointing out that their school used to be in the top 20. Give it up - times have changed. There are many good reasons why its ranking and prestige have dropped. Chief among them is the declining quality of its students, and the fact that in order to get to class there you have to walk past human steamers and used-up needles every day. It also has the rep of being a miserable place (a rep that surely has its origins in, among other things, the steamer factor) in which students rip pages out of books to get ahead and people are, generally, assholes who take themselves way too seriously and are bitter about not getting into Boalt or Stanford.

Having been rejected at Boalt and Stanford, and needing to stay in NoCal, my choices were Hastings and Davis. I chose Davis and I chose wisely. It's a collegial law school, the faculty generally cares more about quality instruction than publishing, and the job prospects coming out of Davis are just fine - in fact, the range of prospects is much more diverse than what the average Hastings student sees. I've been in BigLaw in SF since graduating, and I'll stay with it until I'm financially secure enough to move on to something more rewarding. Meanwhile - and sadly - my Hastings counterparts will remain angry, bitter people.

Elie - you got no talent, yo.

A 2.9 at any school = poop

DId they ever fix the parking lot at GMU Law? That thing was a nightmare back in 2004. One time a cicada scared the shit out of me there!

Where's McGeorge ranked this year? Isn't that a funny name for a law school?

Davis and Hastings are pretty much the same. They send the same percentage of the class into BigLaw. They have similar interning opportunities while at the school -- Davis with government, Hastings with the judiciary next door. Hastings has a larger alumni network and is located in the city, but borders is in one of the worst parts of SF. Davis is in a boring cow town. Some will prefer Hastings, others Davis, but if you don't get into a T-15 (and maybe USC) and want to work in the Bay Area, those are the best options. It's a matter of preference. There's no 'right' decision between the two.

My California options were USC, Hastings and Davis. Chose Davis. Loved it. Davis is actually a great place to live and is a quick shot to the Bay Area, Napa and Tahoe.

The only serious schools on this list are Fordham and the two UC schools (Davis, Hastings). Everyone else . . . TTTry harder!

The only serious schools on this list are Fordham and the two UC schools (Davis, Hastings). Everyone else . . . TTTry harder!

410- Tying with W&M as the second best law school in VA is not acceptable. W&L is similar to W&M in many ways, but it has always been more competitive to get into and the administration should try to keep it that way.

If W&L is the same as W&M then there is basically no reason to go there. W&M is cheaper for both in-state and out of state students. Too many people in the W&L administration are fine with being like William and Mary. As a W&L alum, they should know that's not fine with me. Let's get people running the show who aren't satisfied with being just like W&M.

I'm one of those fools who opted for BYU instead of Boalt, UCLA and USC. Couldn't have worked out better. Gov't loan for law school, almost doubled that in the market instead, paid off loan, graduated with $0 debt and got the exact job I wanted at top CA law firm. None of you T-10 honks could say the same. Remember that when you're scratching checks to pay off those loans. I think about it when I'm pulling my new ride into my own garage and looking at the balance in my bank account. Best decision ever to opt for BYU.

#75: If the only component of reputation is choosing applicants only on the basis of LSAT/GPA for the express purpose of raising its US News rank, then WI surely is doomed. Having a holistic admissions process leads to greater diversity of ideas and attitudes, which, in turn, improves the education students receive.

If Wisconsin suffers a few spots in the rankings to continue to recruit interesting students, so be it.

I do agree that Dean Davis is lacking. Two areas that need improvement are management of staff at the school and in dealing with PR issues, but otherwise, I am glad to have chosen Wisconsin.

Oh, and I doubt the diploma privilege is going anywhere!

#430 - Great for you! But you should remember that when you wasted 3 years at a shiTTTy school, in a shiTTTy state. Yup, I said it! As for me, 3 years of my life is worth more than the $100,000 debt I incurred going to a great school, in a great state, and not having to suck any religions' dick . Oh yeah, I got one of those great jobs too! Don't see too many of those BYU grads though!

I chose BYU over higher ranked schools and couldn't have been happier w/ my choice. I also turned down V5s for my V10 and couldn't be happier about it. As difficult as it may be for ATLers to comprehend, there are in fact more important things in life than rankings.

410 - 100% credited. Although as 429 points out, being "tied" with W&M should not be acceptable. Nor should having orange carpets.

391: Did W & L not observe secret ballots before "Hot Rod's" arrival? Just wondering if David Partlett or Barry Sullivan demanded that faculty vote by hand or voice in public -- 375 alleges that the vote on the new 3L curriculum was taken by voice or hand. Did the W & L faculty routinely vote by hand on important matters like tenure, curriculum changes, etc. before Hot Rod's tenure? Just wondering. China does a great job achieving unanimity with public votes; ditto Russia. If you don't allow a secret ballot on a major policy issue, it strongly suggests that you really don't care what the faculty thinks.

Regarding Comments 380/391. Did the untenured Washington and Lee law faculty members of the faculty get secret ballots? Maybe 375 has his/her facts wrong? I'm sure that the dean and faculty would not force untenureds to vote on such a major issue by hand or voice; that would be unthinkable.

Regarding Comments 380/391. Did the untenured Washington and Lee law faculty members of the faculty get secret ballots? Maybe 375 has his/her facts wrong? I'm sure that the dean and faculty would not force untenured faculty members to vote on such a major issue by hand or voice in public; that would be problematic, wouldn't it?

437-
380 was a response to the comment that there were no "senior" faculty left at W&L to speak out against the 3L experiment b/c the Dean was in charge of hiring and firing. Any "senior" faculty member -- and W&L has many -- are tenured. I seriously doubt W&L, given its size and the collegiality of its faculty, has ever had the faculty vote on things via secret ballot rather than hand or voice vote. (I don't know that for a fact but the idea of them using secret ballot votes seems bizarre to me). What I have heard is that after the faculty voted in favor of the change to the 3L year, Smolla may have said "I would really like to be able to announce that the vote was unanimous" and leaned on those who voted "nay" to change their votes and present a unified public front.

WHAT A WASTE OF A 420TH COMMENT! I SHOULD'VE STAYED UP FOR IT...

[takes a puff]

Guess I'll have to wait till the next ATL "U.S. News" thread (probably today)... Cue the ""TTTemple" and "RuTTTgers" comments in 3 hours... 2 hours ....

Oh, and I guess that clever guy Frederick B. Limerick will start writing his limericks about "There once was a TTT named SeTTTon Hall, etc." in 3 hours... 2 hours ....

I love readin that limerick guy's work when I'm high at about 4:20 man...

-MIKEY PHELPS

WHAT A WASTE OF A 420TH COMMENT! I SHOULD'VE STAYED UP FOR IT...

[takes a puff]

Guess I'll have to wait till the next ATL "U.S. News" thread (probably today)... Cue the ""TTTemple" and "RuTTTgers" comments in 3 hours... 2 hours ....

Oh, and I guess that clever guy Frederick B. Limerick will start writing his limericks about "There once was a TTT named SeTTTon Hall, etc." in 3 hours... 2 hours ....

I love readin that limerick guy's work when I'm high at about 4:20 man...

-MIKEY PHELPS

hey mathematician at 228:
usf's bar passage rate was 9 percentage points lower than hastings in 2009. not sure how that means usf "smoked" hastings. maybe you should swing by the 'loin and we'll set you up with top-notch crack.
in any event, bar/bri is for the bar, law school is for becoming a lawyer.

OSU (Moritz) is a great law school and a great bargain if you get in-state tuition. The new dean (Michaels) is a wunderkind, and I am sure that the school is on its way up in the rankings once he gets settled in the position...they need to work on replacing their business law profs who have either died/retired/gone somewhere else in the past few years, though. Otherwise, OSU is an excellent school, despite what you think about football. Too bad Columbus is in Ohio. But then again, Ann Arbor is in Michigan...

THE Ohio State University = THE best value in this tier. This is especially true if you are from Ohio and can pay in-state rates for all three years.

And thanks to ATL staff for properly emphasizing THE.

Respec.

Arizona: decent school, terrible location.

Tucson is basically like Mexico, but without the firecrackers and cheap booze. If Phoenix is really your goal, ASU is the better option.

W&L is a great law school.

The administration is undoubtedly 'effed up - (double secret faculty committee overturns SJC decisions? really?) The administration is rife with double speak and back stabbing. But, I don't think anyone is going to bat for W&L's admin here.

The professors at W&L are great as mentioned before (Sundby, etc.). The students in this years current 3L class are amazing and have diverse career paths. We actually like each other a lot - and that is no small feat after 3 years in a town as tiny as Lex. I think it says a lot about people when they choose W&L for law school - you choose a particular lifestyle over the guarantees of going to a city law school. If you want the BigLaw jobs you do have to bust your ass to get on LR, but no one resents you for it -- there are plenty of people here who don't try to write on. I am happy that many 3Ls are going to BigLaw - it's what they want, they are fantastic people and it helps the school's rankings. W&L law is great springboard for whatever you want to do and you won't find better people at any law school. There is a sense here that while law school is obviously very important - there is life outside of law.

W&L is a great law school.

The administration is undoubtedly 'effed up - (double secret faculty committee overturns SJC decisions? really?) The administration is rife with double speak and back stabbing. But, I don't think anyone is going to bat for W&L's admin here.

The professors at W&L are great as mentioned before (Sundby, etc.). The students in this years current 3L class are amazing and have diverse career paths. We actually like each other a lot - and that is no small feat after 3 years in a town as tiny as Lex. I think it says a lot about people when they choose W&L for law school - you choose a particular lifestyle over the guarantees of going to a city law school. If you want the BigLaw jobs you do have to bust your ass to get on LR, but no one resents you for it -- there are plenty of people here who don't try to write on. I am happy that many 3Ls are going to BigLaw - it's what they want, they are fantastic people and it helps the school's rankings. W&L law is great springboard for whatever you want to do and you won't find better people at any law school. There is a sense here that while law school is obviously very important - there is life outside of law.

#432 -- I wouldn't say that golfing, hiking, mountain biking, skiing and snowboarding a few times a week for 3 years is a shiTTTy way to spend 3 years, but if you'd prefer to walk urine stained streets to your 250 sq. ft pad, then good luck.

@371--you're pandering to 367? You have to be kidding?!

Grow a spine or get out of the LDS church. You're going to encounter a lot of disappointment in life if you can't stand up for your own beliefs and would rather embrace some 10 year old that uses the phrase "epic douche".

I went to Fordham, it sucked major donkey balls. It has all of the bad qualities of the top schools and none of the good qualities of the lower tier schools. It is full of bitter students who didn't get into the school they wanted and if it wasn't for its location, would be ranked even lower. I rarely find alumni who actually enjoyed their experience there.

I graduated a number of years ago from one of the state schools listed here which is being heavily lampooned. I went because it was small and cheap. I financed my law school education 100% with debt. I was able to pay off my loans entirely while working at the government. I left the government to become a partner at an AmLaw 50 firm after spending about 10 years of clocking 1300 hour. This was doable only because I had such small loans. Suck it.

#115 is spot on. Kicking myself for attending private school (6-15 range) instead of paying instate tuition at U of Washington.