second - JAIII HOOOOO!!!

What are we, parasites? We can't get people to pay us money except by forcing them to do so? I'd be ashamed if the only way I could "earn" a living is by having the law require people to use my services.

Ever seen the quality of a patent application that has been outsourced to India? It's a joke and a worthless waste of $$$.

Ever hear the quality of customer service outsourced to India? God help the company that puts their legal work in their hands!

Oh, and one more thing, I am not gay.

For many years, my voice has been drowned out by younger partners at my firm who feel loyal to the system of hiring American educated attorneys and grossly overcompensating them. Now that we find ourselves mired in problems caused by the economic tsunami, my ideas of outsourcing to foreign based attorneys is starting to perk the interest of the management committee. There is no need to pay an inexperienced know-nothing associate $160K a year. Our clients really don't care whether we assign the work to top tiered law graduate attorneys. As long as the work product is above par and the price is right, the client is pleased. I am working on proposing that we hire two firms, one located in India and the other in the Philippines. Most of the attorneys there are well educated and the writing samples I have seen are at times superior than those produced by a first year associate. Document review is easy when the documents are scanned and emailed to someone 10,000 miles away. The best part is, the foreign based attorney will work for $50K a year. We obtain 2,000 billables at $375.00 an hour and our profit per head is $650,000.00. The beauty of this plan is that there is little to no overhead. There will be less demands on renting larger office space, hiring support staff or funding any pension or health plans. I thank President Obama for creating the conditions that will finally galvanize my partners into adopting my idea.

I've been pounding the pavement in Bangalore.

Loyoal 2L

No self-respecting attorney should care about having to compete for business.

But US trained lawyers come out of law school with $180k dollars in debt and Indian trained lawyers come out with nothing near that. That is what the ABA should not be ignoring.

If the ABA wants to let lawyers in India compete with US lawyers, then alleviate US lawyers of the burdensome obligation to go to law school for three years (one, arguably two, of which are useless)

That is the only way to truly level the playing field. Or better yet get rid of law school as a graduate degree altogether and just have people sit for the bar. Wast of time anyway, law school is.

Are these the types of Indians who live in teepees, or the other kind?

This would have been better if it was written by that kid at Texas.... what do we have to do to bring him on board?

Hey, you lawyers are supposed to be so smart, right? That guy, John Yoo, figured out a way around the Constitution so that I could lock away American citizens indefinitely without charges or a trial, torture high value detainees, listen in on all of your telephone calls, and read all your emails. How come you people couldn’t figure out a way so that I could’ve served a third term? Cheney couldn’t help me, that dumbass flunked out of Yale Law School. Rove flunked the LSATs. Harriet and Alberto were too much in lust with each other to care. Don't you people remember how well the financial sector was doing when I was President? Don't you remember that people lined up every day outside of auto showrooms to buy cars made by the Big 3? Don't you remember how the economy boomed when I turned that $500 billion surplus into a $1 trillion deficit? Like that old guy at post 7 says, the bad economy is all President Obama's fault. Everything was so much better when I was President.

10 -- to paraphrase an old, old Monty Python line: these are Indian Indians, not Woo-Woo Indians.

Love the Ghostbuster reference!

ValueNotes reports there are more than 100 legal process outsourcing firms in India employing around 7,500 people, and it predicts the industry will grow to 32,000 employees by the end of 2010. The newest new thing, according to a presentation by Howard B. Hill, president and CEO of Quatrro Legal Solutions, is a “follow the sun” strategy of stationing employees in each time zone, so documents within a common database can be processed 24 hours a day.

The irony of all this is that foreign based attorneys are in some ways smarter than American educated ones. Let me help you understand. A foreigner can apply to HLS, YLS, SLS (really the only schools that counted back in the heyday of law) and easily gain admission into the LLM program. One year, $50K and a law degree from one of the aforementioned schools and they are already ahead of the game. And you thought you had to compete with your classmates when you were students? These LLM folks return to their countries or work in the States for below market rate. I see the market changing in the legal profession for the better. I am very satisfied that the madness of lockstep is coming to its end.

What's amazing about China and India is that they want us to buy their stuff (mostly junk) but they don't want to buy anything from us. Not products. Not legal services. But they do steal all our IP.

Honestly, stop stealing Tom the Temps schtick. You biglaw bastards werent complaining about any of this when it was only us TTT grads getting the shaft. You can all piss off now and find a hole to crawl into and die now.

Honestly, stop stealing Tom the Temps schtick. You biglaw bastards werent complaining about any of this when it was only us TTT grads getting the shaft. You can all piss off now and find a hole to crawl into and die now.

Honestly, stop stealing Tom the Temps schtick. You biglaw bastards werent complaining about any of this when it was only us TTT grads getting the shaft. You can all piss off now and find a hole to crawl into and die now.

Honestly, stop stealing Tom the Temps schtick. You biglaw bastards werent complaining about any of this when it was only us TTT grads getting the shaft. You can all piss off now and find a hole to crawl into and die.

In the past three years, the legal outsourcing industry here has grown about 60 percent annually. According to a report by research firm ValueNotes, the industry offers an attractive career path for many of the 300,000 Indians who enroll in law schools every year.

Yeah this is typical. No protectionism for the US, but it's ok for any other country to do it. How else are Asian countries gonna manipulate trade balances to achieve growth?

The American analogy for American businesses outsourcing legal work to Indian lawyers in India is...foreign businesses sending legal work to American lawyers in America. Which happens all the time.
Ever see a non-American client sending non-American litigation or corporate work to Debevoise NYC, MysTTTal?

I work for 10 Canadian rupees per week. Hire me.

Racial aggression? Where the hell do you see any hint of a race card in that statement?

While I generally enjoy Partner Emeritus’ shtick, he or she has once again exposed himself or herself in Post 16 as a creative law student who has little idea as to how the legal profession works. He or she obviously doesn’t know that it is extremely difficult for foreign students who come to US law schools for LLM degrees to find legal work in the US as a licensed attorney. That is because the vast majority of jurisdictions require that an applicant to the bar be a graduate of an ABA approved law school. The only degree program the ABA evaluates is the JD program; it does not approve or accredit LLM programs. Therefore, contrary to Partner Emeritus’ wishful assertion, an LLM is not a ticket to practice in the US, and foreign students with LLMs provide little, if any, competition for US lawyers in the US.

Umm - I would not want my sensitive information in India or China where if they steal it there is no recourse. F- Howrey and any other firm sending anything with sensitive info to another country. At least Contract attorneys risk loosing there bar liscense if they share secrets. This will come to bite firms in the ass. No firm worth its salt is outsourcing anything but the most basic crap.(that a paralegal would do in the States)

27, except that NY and California allow LLMs to pass the bar practice law.

But you're right, those are two very minor jurisdictions, and you should only count by the number of states. It's not like the bulk of this country's top tier legal work are in those two states.

9 - Most other countries don't have separate law schools. Law is simply a separate curriculum at the undergraduate level akin to accounting or engineering.

While I don't think there's any reason to have a separate law school except bald-faced protectionism, now that I've been through that system, I'll be damned if they changing it so that those that come behind don't experience the same barriers to entry that I did.

This comment is addressed to post no. 27.

My firm has offices in NY and CA where LLM graduates are allowed to sit in for the bar. I have seen a couple of bright LLM attorneys develop into stars. Believe it or not, we have even had them participate in litigation matters in other states such as Delaware and Chicago on a pro hac vice motion. I would gladly pit any of my talented LLM attorneys against your inferior legal acumen.

27 -

Good post. The ABA and state bar licensing authorities have made it very difficult for foreign lawyers to practice in the US, with or without the LLM. This not only protects US lawyers from foreign competition, and also serves to protect the consumer of legal services.

#7/11 - Your an idiot. Hire staff attorneys for 70K and help out your fellow citizens. Where would you be in todays market if you were just coming out of school? Oh ah on the street. Nice picture asshole

Because of the sensitive nature of legal work, many outsourcing companies in India already have those security measures in place because they have been handling the credit card and banking operations of global companies for more than a decade. Industry members say that outsourcing of legal work to India is a natural next step.

"Ninety percent of a lawyer's work is legal research and drafting, and all this can now be offshored to India,"

32 - Is an LLM someone in India?

33, you can hire plenty of Indian attorneys who do better work than unemployed TTT former staff attorneys.
The Indian contract attorney also doesn't pull the race card and sue you for firing her after subpar work and for not promoting her like a regular associate.

31 -

When did Chicago become a state? BTW - I sure you know that virtually anyone can take the California bar exam, regardless of whether they have a law degree from a US or foreign school.

This comment is addressed to post no. 33.

I don't really care for the dilemma of young lawyers or law students. While they were too busy preparing for the LSATs and writing tear jerking admission statements, they should have been reading Barron's or the Economist. Had they done that, they would have known the economy was going to recede and that becoming a lawyer was a terrible way to hedge yourself from the consequences of a dour economy. Let the buyer beware. If you are in law school right now, or graduated in the past 3 years, you are done. You would have had a better time gambling $200k in Las Vegas than paying an exorbitant tuition for a degree that is virtually worthless (regardless of the school). I made the right choice to enroll in law school back in 1965. I worked hard to get where I am. Don't piss on my leg because you miscalulated on a bad career choice.

The supply of legal education in the US is a farce. In a way it is no different to what is going on with the banks. It has been built on a house of cards where status is the only regulation and where financial ability (and who's your daddy) is worth as much as academic ability.

All the crap I see on ALT like; "my school is better than your school"; I work at a "V10" and your "V25 is TTT"; "NY to 190K" is such juvenile bullshit and is a contributing factor to the mess lawyers (and students) currently find themselves in.

Can someone tell me why a law degree can not be a 4 or 5 year undergrad degree? I can - - because it would be ridiculed by "status sluts" like many on this site.

But I digress, OK...I admit, you are all right and I am wrong; you guys keep paying for that 4 year (worthless) undergrad degree before law school. Fools!

Signed - a non-US educated lawyer, who got into law school based on merit; came out with ZERO debt; had no problems passing "your" bar; has been a beneficiary of your capitalistic remuneration policies.

You fucking knobs just don't get it. The rest of the world is laughing at you!

...and yes, I will fuck off home when the time is right.

"Because of the sensitive nature of legal work, many outsourcing companies in India already have those security measures in place because they have been handling the credit card and banking operations of global companies for more than a decade. Industry members say that outsourcing of legal work to India is a natural next step."

For those who actually have never seen these operations, just some insight to consider. While security at the location where these folks work may be tight, beyond that there is not much enforceable security. Often workers from competiting entities at these offshore firms live and play together. If one is dissatisfied with anything, they will discuss it with the other at the competitor. They may also use that as an opportunity to jump ship for more pay. Lateral movement is rampant offshore. However, until someone actually gets burned big by this it probably will not matter. Orrick and others developing offsite locations within the U.S. itself might have the right middle ground model of the future.

"Note, those words were written weeks before Lehman collapsed, the walls of the 64th precinct started bleeding, and dogs and cats started living together."

WOW mysTTTal you fat, sweaty douche, what a visionary. Careful Lat, with mysTTTal's obviously deep understanding of financial markets, the WSJ may lure him away with promises of all you can eat big macs.

So the next logical step is no more face to face judge and jury trials. Everything handled on line right from India. Yeah, I can see how well that will work out for Americans. Maybe we'll get Indian judges too. No need to have a US Courts system. Yeah I can see how well this will workout. Maybe we'll just ship the Statue of Liberty over to India too! I AGREE -- THE SHIP BE SINKING!

I hope you change your mind on outsourcing when you see the changes to the tax code.
-BHO

38- I would love to piss on you. My guess is you forgot to read the economist and can't retire because you lost to much money. Or your wife left and kids hate you so you have to be a hard ass to this poor kids who are screwed.

At least you know how to use a computer.

"the Society of Indian Law Firms seems willing to go to the mattresses to protect its home grown legal industry"

huh? what good will mattresses do them?

"Often workers from competiting entities ... live and play together. If one is dissatisfied with anything, they will discuss it with the other at the competitor. They may also use that as an opportunity to jump ship for more pay. Lateral movement is rampant"

Oh noes, lawyers living with other lawyers, and even socializing or marrying each other. They talk about non-privileged work (as they don't want to get disbarred otherwise) and sometimes switch firms. India is truly terrible. Such actions never happen in America.

Somebody tell me how outsourcing to India is the big problem with the legal economy? I could have sworn the problem was "too many lawyers, not enough work."

If the ABA wants to be protectionist, it ought to drop its "accreditation" of everything outside of the Top 50. Drop the total number of law schools in this country to that level, force them to hold current enrollment numbers (so at to prevent them from going crazy and letting in 5,000 students each), and boom, there goes your problem.

Sorry everybody in the other TTTiers. With you out of the picture, the market will balance itself back out in a couple years, we'll be in high demand again, and we can get back on the NYC to $190 train.

A newly minted J.D. from a top 10 school in India can expect to earn about $6,000 to $7,000 a year. A new standardized exam for Indian lawyers who want to work in outsourcing. It’s called the Global Legal Professional Certification Test, and it measures a lawyer’s command of English, substantive law, lawyering skills and ethics—the skills thought to be necessary in this field.

All I know is that I really like Partner Emeritus. Dude, do you have time to get together for a drink?

This comment is addressed to post no. 44.

I retired from the practice in 2002. I travelled around the world, took salsa dance classes, did some spelunking in Peru, learned two other languages and read every novel worth reading of the past 20 years. Retirement is boredom for an overachiever. I am semi-retired, came back and work on a limited basis. Although I have lost a lot of money, I will not be broke, but I appreciate your concern nonetheless. I am a widow so yes my wife left me. I have two sons, one is an oncologist and the other is a recruiter for a multi-national company. I taught them well. It is not my fault your parents did not provide you with neither the wisdom nor guidance to stand clear of law school. Trustees of universities across America laughed and continued to raise law school tuition knowing students would be foolish enough to pay for an illusory dream. Why should I feel sorry? Don't you know that a sucker is born every minute? And, apparently they all enrolled in law school recently.

@31 - Chicago is a State? You sound like that ninny Sarah Palin who claimed that Africa was a country.

THIS, my idiotic law friends, is why you should've opted for medicine! Oh, the greater prestige and pay are worth it on their own, but JOB SECURITY in medicine cannot be beat. I will always make more money than you, and live without fear of layoffs or outsourcing to boot.

Why didn't you take the MCAT instead of the LSAT? Why did you major in history instead of biochemistry? Why don't you contribute to society (and get rich doing it) instead of leeching a laughable salary? 160K makes me laugh...

47, the ABA tried to raise the threshold for accreditation last year, by increasing the minimum bar passage rate to roughly 75%, but it was shot down by minority advocates because a lot of URMs go to the lower tier schools. The easiest way to stop liberals (and the ABA is full of them) is to call them racists.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/02/aba-set-to-impo.html
http://www.abanet.org/legaled/standards/Proposed%20Standards%20Commentary/Comments%205_301%206.pdf
http://www.saltlaw.org/files/uploads/SALTsubmission_12-28-07f_2A_1.doc

49 = Partner Emeritus

This comment is addressed to post no. 51.

Depression is a state. You will find yourself in a state of depression if you are in law school or recently received a termination notice. So dwell on my errors as I amuse myself with yours.

50 -

Too bad in all your travels you never learned that Chicago is not a state.

by the way, the AMA is the ultimate protectionist organization. the aba is full of holes compared to us.

Partner emeritus, pay no attention to these overly pedantic assholes who are pissed off at you because you are right about the state of the legal profession. Chicago is a state if you say so, now can you provide me your email address so that I can forward you my resume? I have a law degree but I also drove limos before. I am a good chauffuer.

@58 - I hope you drive better than you spell. "Chauffuer!?" The irony is that you probably spell better than you practice law. You are an idiot.

--Very truly yours,

Overly Pedantic Asshole

45 - watch the Godfather.

Partner Emeritus,
I guess we all should have seen it coming and been bankruptcy lawyers. Oh wait. I am.

3rd year BK Associate (with 15 free minutes before billing another eight hours).

if you've actual dealt with outsourced legal work adn the end result, you'd realize that the answer to this question:

"Yet so long as Biglaw remains big business, how long before the work of junior associates can be cost effectively shipped overseas? "

...is: quite a while. It's very difficult to get them to things correctly. Not because of lack of ability, but because it's very difficult to convey the level of detail you need in a short period of time. For longer term projects its more tenable.

I'd be more than happy to introduce a resolution through the ABA YLD if folks are interested...

anyone want to send me a draft resolution? I'll check back in the morning to see if there are any responses.

Forrester Research estimates that 35,000 U.S. legal jobs will move offshore by 2010 and 79,000 by 2015, according to a November 26th article in The Wall Street Journal.

Kelley Drye & Warren in New York is reported to use lawyers in India to conduct litigation document review and for straightforward contract matters. Many other firms are being asked by clients to consider outsourcing.

Another excellent post by Elie.

If ATL were to focus on this ABSURD ABA policy and make it an issue, you'd get a ton of mileage from that - and maybe even perform a public service.

good post. nice work on the GB reference.

Partner Emeritus has a good shtick, but an actual widower would know not to call himself a widow. To be fair, he may learn the difference before finishing high school.

Actually good writing in this post and even good jokes. You're growing on me mysTTTal.

Any references to Lost are awesome. We do, however, need more references to World War II.

It's really no suprise. Considering how the Mexican governent is waaaaaay tougher than the US when it comes to keeping foreign workers put but lobbies to the US to allow foreign workers from Mexico. All countries prefer protectionism to be uni-directional.

70 is TMFCR

67 -

He may also learn that Chicago is not a state.

The LLP Act could transform India’s legal market into one of the fasting growing in the world.” In Shah’s view, “This legislation has important implications for legal outsourcing companies, and several of Clutch Group’s more than 50 AmLaw clients have already inquired about how Clutch Group can help navigate the new landscape

Partner E,

So you're a 65+ old man commenting on an internet blog?

To everyone else,

Is this out of the ordinary? I don't honestly know the demographics of ATL, but I definitely find this bit of information surprising. I keep on imagining my Grandpa sitting at a computer trying to teach the youngin' about the way the world works.

Sincerely,
7_

There should be a Ghostbusters reference in every post.

sanjay gupta is the credited schtick - 180180180

I guess the rest of the layoffs and incoming class adjustments will come when big law have their Indian branches fully functional.

keep electing gloabalists who care more about some third world country than their own and this is what happens. Maybe some genius who supports open borders can explain why we protect the borders of other countries, i.e. North Korea and Iraq, but won't protect our own. Clinton, Bush, Obama-not a shred of difference-all three are globalists.

Bottom-line, several of the fat law firms are already offshoring their own legal support work to low-cost locations, whilst still billing their clients top-whack rates, so smart corporate legal buyers are focusing on engaging with LPOs, as opposed to highly-expensive law firms, for a lot of legal work, while retaining expensive lawyers for critical activies that require deep experience.

These are just the sentiments of the protectionist and hypocritical equity partners of law firm partners in India. Rank and file associates hold no influence in bar associations and lobby groups like the pompously titled Society of Indian Law Firms. Hence, associates’ voices in favor of an open legal market are not heard in the media. In addition to domestic Indian businesses and foreign businesses in India, such associates will be tremendously benefited by opening up of the legal market in India. It will lead to dissemination of know-how and skills and lift the quality of the practice of law in India. Starting salaries in Mumbai in top law firms had risen to $20,000 last year but are now back to $10,000 or less. No prizes for guessing where this metric head once the market opens up.
Indian law firm partners have been using specious arguments and nationalist rhetoric to stave off competition for a while. However, the writing is on the wall. The legal market will open up soon and history will judge these self styled nabobs to be the Baghdad Bobs of Indian law.

52 is sadly correct. I should have gone to med school.

And for those of you that have already lost your jobs to Indians, I'll be holding auditions for young male house boys soon. If you are interested make sure you have a thong and contact me immediately.

82: once again, fail. Misappropriation of schtick is poor form.

PE - To avoid making the mistake of landing one with an attitude of "entitlement" just import that one. Give them a one week hygiene assimilation course and they will do just fine.

This comment is addressed to post no. 84.

Yes I mentioned yesterday that I already import Indian and Filipino boys. They are cheaper and younger. However, in light of the current circumstances I am going to seize the opportunity get some -albeit older- wight ass.

PE - God bless you for the loads of generosity that you will be showering on these "older - wight asses."

83- Your schtick sucks anyways.

82, 85, you must idolize Partner Emeritus as there is no higher form of flattery than immitation. drop the homo schtick unless you are channeling your own.

This comment is addressed to post no. 86.

Yes I will be showering "loads" of generosity all over a few lucky "older wight asses." Not older than 26, however. Only recent grads need apply.

89-FAIL

Haha this is really funny. 90 is really pissed off that someone is ruining his schtick.

Bravo Emritus - you have redeemed yourself with your wit. Sorry about the wife comment.

85 PE - I'm gonna git me sum boy pootie too!

This comment is addressed to post no. 93.

Bravo sir!

the number of characters on this board is getting a bit much.

Here's an idea for the slumdog shysters in India. Find out who are the players in the case/deal/imbroglio/etc. you are doing work for. Then go to the group of shysters that are on the other side, and sell them the instructions you were given and the results you came up with. TWO PAYDAYS ! What's not to like. And it's all legal in India.

As we have learned from the recent unpleasantness in Manhattan, the higher up the food chain you are; the more money and power are your gods.

Piss on the people who didn't make it onto the life raft with you. Piss on other people who are trying to make a living in the same profession. Piss on everyone!

Here's an idea for the slumdog shysters in India. Find out who are the players in the case/deal/imbroglio/etc. you are doing work for. Then go to the group of shysters that are on the other side, and sell them the instructions you were given and the results you came up with. TWO PAYDAYS ! What's not to like. And it's all legal in India.

As we have learned from the recent unpleasantness in Manhattan, the higher up the food chain you are; the more money and power are your gods.

Piss on the people who didn't make it onto the life raft with you. Piss on other people who are trying to make a living in the same profession. Piss on everyone!

Here's an idea for the slumdog shysters in India. Find out who are the players in the case/deal/imbroglio/etc. you are doing work for. Then go to the group of shysters that are on the other side, and sell them the instructions you were given and the results you came up with. TWO PAYDAYS ! What's not to like. And it's all legal in India.

As we have learned from the recent unpleasantness in Manhattan, the higher up the food chain you are; the more money and power are your gods.

Piss on the people who didn't make it onto the life raft with you. Piss on other people who are trying to make a living in the same profession. Piss on everyone!

Here's an idea for the slumdog shysters in India. Find out who are the players in the case/deal/imbroglio/etc. you are doing work for. Then go to the group of shysters that are on the other side, and sell them the instructions you were given and the results you came up with. TWO PAYDAYS ! What's not to like. And it's all legal in India.

As we have learned from the recent unpleasantness in Manhattan, the higher up the food chain you are; the more money and power are your gods.

Piss on the people who didn't make it onto the life raft with you. Piss on other people who are trying to make a living in the same profession. Piss on everyone!