Bang!!!

Shearman's done.

Shearman & SterlTTTng

I just LOVE how these idiotic BIGLAW firms are now competing over how much they will pay a first year to NOT work for them. This is pathetic. Perhaps if they reconsidered their entire method of hiring and compensation - future generations of lawyers might avoid this suffering.

"Participants in the Delayed Start Program will not be employees of the firm during the deferral year."

This pretty much gives them free reign not to invite them back in 2010.

ouch. i think the best option is to get your ass in the shearman door as soon as possible.

I'll agree not to go to Shearman at all. How much will they give me for that?

Would it really make sense to let them enter as anything but first years? It's not like they're magically going to be able to do the work of second years simply because they graduated a year earlier than the 2010 first years.

Their NALP form still cracks me up. How the hell did they go from 66 summers in 2007 to 129 in 2008. And then a partner tells me at a callback that the firm is better managed now than in the past. Pure hilarity.

first to say first

4, are you a tool? Why would you place the "TTT" in the "I" in Sterling when there's a perfectly good "T" in there? Fail.

Elie, you're a douchebag. Did you think someone pushed back a year would ever get credit for the year farting around on the company dime? what a tool

Elie, you're a douchebag. Did you think someone pushed back a year would ever get credit for the year farting around on the company dime? what a tool

Was Joan Holloway deferred?

can someone explain how this is different from other firms' deferral programs? You mean to tell me that Latham gives you the money and then you get to start as a second year? Isn's it true with all these stipend programs that the class of 2009 and 2010 will be pitted against each other?

I don't understand how this program is so much different from firms that allow a part of the class to defer for the year.

Why wouldn't associates who choose deferral programs start as first years? Are any of the other deferral programs giving associates credit for not working that first year? These deferral programs give associates who have always wanted to take some time to work for a public interest organization or pursue personal goals a great chance to do so, while still receiving sufficient income to cover their expenses. However, I don't see why associates should get a year of credit -- when they will really be no different to their firms than the 2010 grads they start with.

Where can I sign-up for my free $65,000.00?

Even though Shearman "offered" 128, their NALP form indicates that only 102 entry levels are expected to start in 2009.

Cold offer much?

This analysis is AWFUL. The memo says there are limited spots for the 1 year deferral so obviously 182 people are not going to start in fall 2010. They will probably split it as close to 50/50 as possible. And obviously they won't start as 2nd years - why would they?

Shearman does not offer a bar stipend. They reimburse Bar-Bri, bar fees, and your travel costs---and usually offer a salary advance. That advance seems unlikely for deferred associates. So you get $65k.

Where can I sign-up for my free $65,000.00?

shearman definitely cold offered, but i know of a few ppl who 1L'd at different firms and chose to go back there over Shearman bec of how poorly managed and disorganized it was...

I agree with 19. Ordinarily I would chalk it up to clerkships but Shearman doesn't really pull in clerkship quality associates any more. I'm guessing much of the disparity is the result of cold offers last summer.

Deciding class year on a case-by-case basis makes more sense. Working full-time in PI or clerking for a judge for a year during the program should make you a second year, since that is a year of real work experience. Clerks are usually hired on as second years, outside of deferral programs.

is this just a chance to bash Shearman indiscriminately? Don't see how this is so different from other programs -- only it happens to be Shearman, so ATL has to put it in the most negative light possible.

The Dow is down today. Taking that into consideration, Shearman & Sterling's actions are certainly understandable and prudent.

The NYT editorial today got it right---

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/opinion/02thu4.html?_r=1&em

Equally as obvious to any reader other than Ellie is the fact that a significant percentage of 09s will not defer, which when added to the smaller 10 class will likely leave Shearman with only a slightly larger than average starting group in Jan 2011. If you assume 50% defer you'd have 118, which considering only 64 started in Jan 2010 is about right for when the market heats up again.

ATTN: LAW FIRMS

If you don't want 3Ls to work for you, you need to be more explicit. If you give me a choice between taking a job with you or not taking a job with you, I am going to take the job with you. If this is meant as a "cold offer," it's NOT cold enough.

F**king TTT firm.

12 = serious guy

S&S HR trolls will be out on the boards today saying how great it is to get a "free" $65k. No doubt about it.

It isn't "free" folks. We all turned down other options to join S&S. The $65k is nice and all, but I would much rather have quality firm management and the prospect of a job in the future. Shearman kids, take that $65k and stuff it under a mattress. It's all you're getting from them.

Shearmanites - forget the "Dead Cat Bounce,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_bounce

- it's time to learn the "Dead Cat Boogie-Woogie"!! Get your Manolo's and Ferragamo's ready, because here are the steps:

1-2--clients are few--

3-4--associates head for the door--

5-6--movin' back to the 'sticks--

7-8--Manhattan can wait--

9-10--until new financial "innovation" comes out, and we all move back again!!

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-et-rutten6-2009mar06,0,7099835.story

The Dow is Down Guy: your outlook is as shortsighted as Shearman's. Today only marks a momentary pause in the Dow's meteoric climb upwards. Its up over 20% in the past month and its friend the Nasdaq is up for the year. You and Shearman will look foolish in due time, the boom has begun, the recovery is here.

What's going on with firms that haven't announced start dates yet? Are they all just busy putting together their deferral programs or is there a chance that some firms will actually allow incoming 3Ls to start in the fall?

Shearman is a joke. Always has been. Always will be.

You are all idiots.

Skadden Strong

now the question is no longer "which firms have deferred?"

It's "which firms have NOT deferred?"

what a rancid toilet bowl of a firm

what a rancid toilet bowl of a firm

why 10k short of market?? Latham looks good compared to everybody who came after them so far.

Shearman's bread and butter is M&A -

Valuations are so low right now that hostile deals are bound to pick up the instant the credit markets attain a critical level of liquidity.

So it is actually well positioned once the credit markets recover.

41: I'm guessing Latham doesn't look too good to over half of their NYC 1st years who were mercilessly laid off.

I really believe that those that chose to take a year off will not have a job in 2010 (or at least are seriously at risk). Law firm economics are changing and there is no way a firm will take all those people back in addition to their new summer/1st years.

If you decide to take a year, do it under that assumption.

Notice how those who *may* join the firm this year STILL DON'T HAVE START DATES. Where's that guy arguing with me the other day about this? It's right there in the memo--they haven't decided this yet, but it won't be before December.

I told you this was coming.

Elie -- is it possible to get a list of firms that have NOT deferred? I assume every firm will defer eventually (in one way or another), but let's see which firms are maintaining fall start dates for now.

what a rancid toilet bowl of a firm

Would you rather be in the class of 2009 or the class of 2010?

33 you're a liar. you had no other legitimate options or you would have gone there. it's not like they're any better off at morgan lewis right now so take your 65k and don't act like you did shearman a favor by choosing them.

i can really sense the unity and high standards of the legal profession here. people reveling in other people's sorrow. everything and everyone is "TTT." this is getting old.

keep it up my fellow attorneys. drive our profession right into the ground because you're too selfish to see beyond the narrow confines of your desk.

Btw, Elie rocks!!!

"Participants in the Delayed Start Program will not be employees of the firm during the deferral year" = you are on your own for health insurance. That should take a nice bite out of that $65k.

I could care less if I was delayed and then considered a first year associate when I started. At this point in the game, the key is to survive--not to count the years before you make partner.

49- 33 here. I had multiple other offers, from more "prestigous" firms. Not MLB and its ilk. I didn't do S&S any favors by going there. But their recruting pitch is all about how the firm is run so much better than it was in 2000-01. I foolishly bought into that.

Is a stealth layoff any more merciful than mass economic ones? Because all firms are cutting now, it's just some are upfront and other are not.

You are all pathetic.

2009 is screwed. Shearman hired a bunch of TTT's during the boom and now they see they won't need them. Better to take the IVY heavy class of 2010 that was 66% smaller.

My "personal development interests" are, in the words of the song, "poppin' the bottles and touchin' the models." I can't do much of either, let alone both, on $65k.

I concur fully with The Dow is Up Guy.

15 - I and the other 3 people who watch the show appreciate the shout out to Joan.

56 is spot on. 2009 was filled with Seton Hall types. They'll cut them long before they touch the Ivy laden 2010 class.

Strong evidence that the class of 2009 is a lost generation.

Attention Class of '09 grads that think they have a job at Shearman: You don't. This is a firing, plain and simple. Your spots will be taken by the class of 2010.

You are all idiots and your parents hate you.

They gave out offers to 128 out of 129 in the summer of 2008? Wow, nice of them to do, but, really?

The handwriting was on the wall in late 2007 that the sh-t was going to hit the fan, but they still not only brought in a whopper class, but offered OVER 99% of that class in late July/early August, after

-Bear Stearns collapsed

-the markets had already dumped 15-20% for the year,

-firms had begun layoffs, in part because

-the deal market was drying up?

My god. They could have culled out 10 or so and still had a very very high offer rate. Crazy.

The stipend is a disguised severance payment. You're screwed, class of '09.

2009 is not necessarily the "Lost" generation, more like the "Move Back in With Parents" generation

They gave out offers to 128 out of 129 in the summer of 2008? Wow, nice of them to do, but, really?

The handwriting was on the wall in late 2007 that the sh-t was going to hit the fan, but they still not only brought in a whopper class, but offered OVER 99% of that class in late July/early August, after

-Bear Stearns collapsed

-the markets had already dumped 15-20% for the year,

-firms had begun layoffs, in part because

-the deal market was drying up?

My god. They could have culled out 10 or so and still had a very very high offer rate. Crazy.

63 - as mentioned above, their NALP form says they expected to take on only 102 1st years, which means they cold offered the 26 who aren't showing up.

The 1 real no offer was the Shermanator who basically gave the firm a big middle finger.

Thank god I went to Hofstra and am respected more than if I had gone to my second choice Settton Hall.

Whatever. At least they are being honest. Firms like Milbank, who only deferred until January '10, will end up pushing back for a full year. But they just aren't being honest about it. So we will wait around until January, only to be told in December that "because market conditions have not improved, we are deferring your start date until January '11.

The class of 2009 is completely, 100%, fucked!!!

QUINN REMAINS averse of inter-associate class blood sports

102/129 is more like a 79% offer rate!

Class of 2010 get ready to hustle to avoid q 50% cold offer rate this year.

Can we get a list of V100's that haven't delayed/announced start dates?

Any Shearman 2009ers know of cold offers from last summer? No way they gave 128 offers out.

Cadwalader > Shearman.

.

Can we get a list of V100's that haven't delayed/announced start dates?

73,

I summered there. Everyone got an offer. No one got a cold offer. A few dozen people bounced to other firms. They should have cold offerred. This way, all of us would not have been fucked.

The class of 2009 is being sacrificed to create a class of super-lawyers -- the class of 2010. The class of 2010, by stealing the jobs and wealth that should have belonged to the class of 2009, will learn something fundamental about the legal profession that it takes most lawyers years to truly learn: That the law is a profession where you succeed by taking that which belongs to your fellow colleagues: his job, his clients, his partnership spot, his standing, his peace of mind, and in some cases his wife.

Learn well, class of 2010!

Anyone remember when Shearman was a V10? What a fall from grace.

.

Can we get a list of V100's who haven't delayed/announced start dates?

If I take the offer and defer for a year, what's my obligation to go back to the firm? Can I just take the $65,000 and find a new job? Is that some sort of a NALP violation? Or is NALP totally out the door at this point?

Yipes.

All these lucky people being pushed back a year. They are given an opportunity to flunk the bar at least once, maybe twice, without having to tell their firms.

I am currently seeked a 2009 grad for an entry level secretarial position when I start in fall 2010. High grades at a T10 are a must.

- 2010 grad

82: I wouldn't worry about the NALP. They're not worrying about you...

Yipes.

Question--I have been searching for another job for the last few months and actually think I have found one. I received a bar stipend, etc. before I found this other job.

I plan on taking this other job regardless if I have to pay the stipend back--but do you think given the market and the fact that these law firms would love to see the incoming class shrink I can just contact the recruiting person and state that I will walk away if they don't make me pay this back?

I love how people are trying to say that this payout isn't "free" money... 3Ls, you are owed NOTHING. The fact that you are being given $65k to do nothing is incredible, but the fact that you feel entitled to it blows my mind.

Oh, and the argument that you "turned down" other firms to go to Shearman is laughable - - look around. I'm pretty sure your Plan B is deferring associates as well.

In the end, "you will get nothing and you will like it!"

Elie's dumb as balls but to all you other knuckleheads:

do you really think that they're going to advance you a year when you come back from your deferral? and if they do, do you really think that this would come with the commensurate raise?

If you get brought in as 2s, it'll be all the easier to pay you 160 and the rising 1s 145.

i hate all of you.

jds to retarded!!

84

What are you talking about. They will be looking on the published lists the day they come out in DC, NY, and CA. If your not on it, they will be itching to let you know to forgot about showing up in 2010.

I think that getting paid to do nothing for a year and losing a year of class standing is entirely reasonable (I am a 3L). Why should you gain a year of class standing when you aren't clerking or working at the firm? If I felt confident that Shearman would not rescind my offer in the meantime (and that I would start reasonably on-time in 2010), I would take this deal in a heartbeat.

Yipes.

Why are deferred associates less likely to get a job in 2010. Wouldn't it be easier to no offer the whole summer class and take a bunch of kids from 2009?

At the very least, I don't see why everyone is so sure that the 2009 kids won't still end up at these firms. Who knows what will happen. I'm just sick of all these stupid people making bold claims based on nothing but fear.

What a shitastic firm.

Bar reiumbursements but no stipend? So cheap.

I bet if Shearman eventually revokes its offers and these students end up never starting at the firm, Shearman will ask for the 65 k back. I wouldn't put it past them.

Elie - can you please post a list of firms that have NOT delayed start dates? Thanks.

Was "the ship be sinking" guy banned for all those anti-semitic comments?

I go to a T5 law school and was planning to start at S&S in 09. I am so taking that 65K and hedging my bets.

Yipes.

What a shitastic firm.

Bar reiumbursements but no stipend? So cheap.

I bet if Shearman eventually revokes its offers and these students end up never starting at the firm, Shearman will ask for the 65 k back. I wouldn't put it past them.

Yipes.

Why are the Blue Jays advertising on ATL?

If they can fire you at will, you can quit at will. If I had the option, I would take the money and look for another job, use it to set up my own firm, whatever. Then come fall of 2010 say "sorry, found another position."

Was Joan Holloway deferred?

35 & 58 -

You are being fooled by a classic bear market rally. To me, the recent rally looks dangerously similar to each of the previous bear-market rallies that have failed over the past year. At the beginning of March, few people believed a rally was possible. It seemed everyone was convinced the S&P 500 was headed for 600 or worse. With stocks 20% higher and economic data that is "less bad," the media seems dominated by those expecting a new bull market driven by a second-half recovery. Perhaps the market has seen the lows and a cyclical bull market can continue. Yet to endorse this view, prudent business leaders must make the aggressive assumption that actions by the Obama administration have solved the financial and economic crisis such that this heavily indebted economy can return to growth later this year.
For example, the Treasury's public-private investment plan to buy up to $1 trillion in bad assets leaves critical questions unanswered, including what price will be offered for the assets and whether the banks will be willing to sell at that price.
Most disturbing, the plan relies on more debt to solve a debt-induced problem, akin to solving a drinking problem by ordering another round. Fundamental problems remain, including weak bank balance sheets, too much debt, and too little capital.
.

joan holloway was spider monkeyed

Yipes.

42 - fashion designers love skinny models, so if Ethipia goes through another famine, they will be well-positioned to dominate in the fashion model market.

94: Take it from experience: Law firm management doesn't think that way. They will take the 2010's and ditch the '09s, if only because the 2010 grads' careeers developed in the normal course, while the 2009's were off playing and wasting their stipends on booze and travel because they got deferred.

Biglaw is an industry where those that get side-tracked, even if for no fault of their own, get tossed out. Whether it is because the associate in question got "deferred" for a year or because the associate got passed over for partnership when they were up, it just doesn't matter. Either you successfully progress in the order that exists or you get out. It has always been that way, and it always will be that way.

94: Take it from experience: Law firm management doesn't think that way. They will take the 2010's and ditch the '09s, if only because the 2010 grads' careeers developed in the normal course, while the 2009's were off playing and wasting their stipends on booze and travel because they got deferred.

Biglaw is an industry where those that get side-tracked, even if for no fault of their own, get tossed out. Whether it is because the associate in question got "deferred" for a year or because the associate got passed over for partnership when they were up, it just doesn't matter. Either you successfully progress in the order that exists or you get out. It has always been that way, and it always will be that way.

kind of depends on what you do. If you defer and work at legal aid for a year, is it so ridiculous for S&S to bring you in as a second year litigator?

Doesn't the stipend come with agreement, just like bar exam stipend, that if you leave the firm voluntarily within a year of starting, you have to pay it back.

Would a firm go after that money?

105 - Spot on!

AHHHH. I fucking did everything right -- got good grades, killed OCI's, got literally a dozen offers. And for what? So I can sit on my ass waiting for my firm to let me start? I don't trust them anymore, and I know it is unlikely I will ever start at the firm.

Nothing left to do but....well, you know.

The Dow is Down Guy: this current rally is very different from other rallies that have occurred over the past year. If you look at the graph linked to below you will note that this rebound is much more gradual and sustained than the short, jagged upward movements of the recent past.

http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/usmarkets/snapshot.asp?symbol=US%26DJI

Mortgage rates have dropped, there are signs of credit markets easing, and it appears as if banks are stabilizing. Manufacturing is up, as is new home construction. The bottom of the market was touched on March 9th and the bull market began then. We are in a recovery period and prudent firms will recognize this and stop the bloodshed. Viva la economy!

To 91:

The firms need to remember your name before they can look your name up on the bar passage lists. They aren't going to be thinking of their deferred associates enough to check up on whether they passed.

94 & 110,

Another way to look at it is you graduated and not around the current 1L's and 2L's to poison the wells of the school about how S&S screwed you, but the class of 2010 is there for another year. As such, 2010 class is more of a liability and will be taken care of before you.

114 - you "killed" OCI's? How many figurative offers did you receive in addition to your literal offers?

Indeed, there is nothing left to do but... well, please, please, please go ahead and do it (figuratively, of course)

We should also get a list of which firms are paying for/ subsidizing health insurance during the fall before the delayed start date. The ones who aren't are being super-cheap.

I agree with Mystal's opinion that bar takers better pass on the first try - the writing is on the wall - but I don't agree with his assertion that the firm is "making it clear" that they have to. After all, the memo just says that incoming first years must "pass the bar before joining the firm," and if people aren't starting until Sept. 2010, that means that there are 2 chances to pass the exam.

If anyone is interested, a group of us are trying to keep track of how the law firms handled this financial crisis. We are planning to fill out the missing information this weekend for the columns that already exist. However, we would like to add information about firms that laid off first years and firms that froze or reduced salaries.

http://lawfirmchaos.blogspot.com/

I realize that I indict myself by being here - but this site and its inane comments really are proof of the desperate need for more chlorine in the gene pool. Seriously, what a bunch of whiny little idiots with overblown senses of entitlement. You are not worth $160k your first year out of law school. Neither are you worth $140k, $120k, or even $100k. So if you, like me, are still lucky enough to have a solid offer on the table (for the moment) suck it up, quit whining, and accept that you are among the blessed.

A once peer firm, the story of S&S is akin to a greek tragedy. The attempt to be graceful by offering a pittance of a severance and a loss of one year of a young professional's life is simply unacceptable and done in poor form. A better resolution would be to send letters rescinding the offers and letting these plebes look for other employment. To just string them along for a year and give them false hope is evidence of sociopathic behavior.

122, by your standards, then, the people who were looking to start at Shearman this fall have the right to whine here -- for none of them "are still lucky enough to have a solid offer on the table." In fact, this is basically a firing or, at best, a cold offer from Sherman. They don't really want any of the people they hired for this year.

If Dow Is Up Guy = Dow Is Down Guy,

then best. commentor. ever.

Dear 50:

There is no such thing as the legal "profession" anymore. Certainly not one with high standards. TTT and TTTT schools graduate thousands of lawyers per year for way too few jobs. It's a dog eat dog world. We are all just cogs. Standards and decency are dead, and it's no fault of the current law students and associates.

The boomers saw a chance to make money on cash-grab law schools and they took it. Just like they saw a chance to make money leveraging associates. Then they write about how the 160K salaries are responsible for the problem. ROFL.

I am amazed by #33's comments. "it's nice and all." You bet it is. $65,000 for doing absolutely nothing! Wow, now I know why these law firm models aren't working anymore. Kids worth very little being paid 6 figures - and acting like they deserve it.

All deferral options (from all firms) come w/ being set back a year...that's not news.

The firms are going to have a hard time recovering the 65k in a year, because they may be out of business by then...

127 - not all 3L's are "worth very little" - I'll be graduating from a top law school, have taken part in 2 legal services clinics and 2 semesters writing motions and doing trial prep for a federal prosecutor's office. I also did "real" work as a SA. Can I handle a jury trial on my own and kill it next year? No. Can I write an ariticulate motion/memo/opposition/interrogatory/anything along those lines as well as a current 1st/2nd/3rd/4th year - you bet. Why are they worth so much more than me and so many others like me.

Not everyone graduates from law school bereft of all practical legal experience.

Just a matter of time before S&S goes to 100k.

NY to 100k!

Listen...the class of 2009 hasn't got it so bad. I'm class of 2008, I had my start date deferred to Jan 2009. Started work and then was laid off two months later. Now...I'm just f*cked.

At least firms are figuring it out now. I'd love to be in a position where I was collecting $65k right now with at least the promise of a full-time gig come September.

As a non 3L I think the whole "2009 class is screwed" commenting is the result of a bunch of 2L's trying to redeem themselves.

If we're all talking about saving money, and how expensive deferring incomming associates for a year is, then lets look at what 70 summer associates at 35K for a few weeks of uselessness costs.

3L's, I wouldn't head all these "your dead forever comments." It's just a scared 2L who is worried about a 75% no offer rate this summer trying to scare the hell out of you to make themselves feel better. Pathetic really.

I am just waiting for Shearman to layoff a huge number of associates. I know they have been doing the stealth thing for a while now but they have still increased firm size year over year.

They will hopefully just take the reputation hit and layoff the associates with no work so that the firm can start to recover and get the pain over with and the incoming associates can be sure that they have jobs.

Do you have to pay the 65k back if you find something else?

With respect to the Class of 2010 taking the deferred 2009ers spots: Morgan Lewis indicated that upcoming summer associates would be competing for an offer to start in 2011, giving the deferred class a much better chance of actually starting at the firm in 2010.

All the people on this board asking if you have to pay it back are retarded. *I'm talking to you 135!!

How the fuck will commentor's on ATL know? You gotta ask or risk it. No one here knows anything about it. It's a bunch of 2L's for fucks sake!

NYC to 190!!! opps...typo...NYC to 90!!!!

This comment is addressed to post no. 130.

I am unimpressed by your credentials. If I had a nickel for every 2nd or 3rd year law student that swore they could hit the ground running, I would be rich (I already am but that is entirely another story). Your degree is worthless. I would rather hire an LLM from your school than to grossly overpay you to complain about how overwhelmed you will be. Please try to impress a government agency with your drivel.

139 - your comment assumes I am a whiny 25 year old - which I am not.

I have grown tired of you.

139: lol, yeah a LLM is a lot better than a JD.
They let anybody into those programs just to relieve them of their cash.

137 - Gee, maybe someone on this board received a letter indicating the terms of the deferral stipend and they might be nice enough to inform us about the details. Not guaranteed, but certainly worth a shot to ask in case the person happens to be keep ATL on auto-refresh like the rest of the 3Ls on this board.

Not 135

130/140

You may not be 25, but you are whiny. Try to work on that, it is probably why you are unemployed.

I interviewed for a paralegal position at Shearman a few years before I went to law school. When I arrived for the interview at their NYC office, a cockroach crawled right through the middle of the lobby. Granted, it was NYC -- but the fact that nobody else in the lobby even cared was a little alarming. I also note that the roach was trying to LEAVE.

True story.

my cat's breath smells like cat food

130-YAWN

I have a very general question that no one seems to have a good answer to. What happens if your start date gets pushed to 2010. Unless the firm gives you a binding contract that you will have a job in 2010, then, come 2010, you could still find yourself shit out of luck.

130 - do you really think your stated credentials add up to 6 figures worth of value? A decent paralegal could do that stuff. (not #140, who you have grown tired of.)

God so many people on this site are infantile and annoying. Why do associates and law students have this hubris? All we (associates) really can claim to be are cogs in a large enterprise, the belief that the world is never fickle is astonishing. People lose their jobs...it happens to the rest of the economy, cope.

And not to rub it in, but I consider myself a pretty skilled attorney, went to decent but not T30 law school, and chose to develop marketable skills and go with a small firm. So I work for booming boutique, "only" make 130k, but have fewer billable hours. Its all a trade off...all the people who thought they were the shit when they got there biglaw 180k job and were law review snobs...welcome to the real world baby.

I go to Hofstra. Will you have sex with me?

Shearman should have signed up w/ GEICO. They would have saved a ton of money on their car insurance and their first years would be starting in September.

They also revoked offers to judicial clerks.

$65K for nothing is awesome. Maybe can't move to NY but who cares. I'd spend a year traveling. Working sucks; being lazy is awesome.

Anyone want to invest in getting our schizophrenic Dow is Up/Down Guy his own blog? I come here just for his/her posts.

They also revoked offers to judicial clerks.

130 - No disrespect intended, but you can't write anything as well as a competent 3rd/4th year. You just can't. Clinics and interning are much better than nothing, but there is a steep learning curve, and a 3rd/4th year is objectively more skilled and more useful than a 1st year.

S&S revoked clerks' offers? Yikes. That's long-term thinking at its best.

This comment is addressed to post no. 140.

The legal profession has grown tired of your ilk. The silver lining of our depressed economy is that it gives us the opportunity to unload useless surplusage of associates. Peer firms will trim down and operate like lean machines. You are what we call a casualty, collateral damage, a drain on capital, a member of the "lost generation," or whatever you want to be called. To me, you are nothing but an example of what went wrong with our business model. It is time to correct, adapt and overcome. You are excess baggage. Goodbye.

76 - mcguirewoods didnt push back start dates, but they cut incoming associate salary.

A bunch of entitled babies with zero real work experience and zero employable skills are being paid 65k to sit around and do nothing for a year. Good to see that elitism is still alive and well.

152/155: Substantiate this. I know several judicial clerks who are going to S&S in the fall. I'm no Shearman homer, but this seems highly improbable.

Why has there been virtually no discussion of legal options in the military as an interim career option for 3Ls without jobs? A relative of mine went JAG out of law school, later had a leg up in landing a Federal position and last year joined a white collar practice as a partner. Even outside the criminal area, Federal agencies do look favorably on military experience on a resume, and experience and contacts developed at those agencies in turn can lead to interesting opportunities. The pay isn't great but benefits and quality of life are pretty good.

Its funny to watch the class of 2010 scramble making ridiculous comments to make themselves feel better. Deep down, they know they're screwed.

Summer 2009 is going to be the coldest summer on record.

any word about paul hastings?

163 - today is your last chance to submit a resume for my secretarial opening in fall 2010. A low paying job is better than none at all.

- 2010 Stud

@122: So does that mean a second year jumps from 100k of worth to 175k? If first year associates are overpaid (which they are) then the same can be said with 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc; their yearly raises are around 10% of the 160k that first years make, maybe it should be $110k for a 2nd year, $125k for a 3rd year, etc.

Oh but thats right, ONLY the (soon to be) first years have a sense of entitlement.

God so many people on this site are infantile and annoying. Why do associates and law students have this hubris? All we (associates) really can claim to be are cogs in a large enterprise, the belief that the world is never fickle is astonishing. People lose their jobs...it happens to the rest of the economy, cope.

And not to rub it in, but I consider myself a pretty skilled attorney, went to decent but not T30 law school, and chose to develop marketable skills and go with a small firm. So I work for booming boutique, "only" make 130k, but have fewer billable hours. Its all a trade off...all the people who thought they were the shit when they got there biglaw 180k job and were law review snobs...welcome to the real world baby.

Will firms that deferred '09 consider deferring '10 and then having a non-existent summer class upcoming to put things back on track? That seems reasonable, but I'm pretty sure everyone is screwed anyway.

Someone please define "worth" for me? I'm not an economist, but I do know that in an unregulated free capitalist society, law firms DO NOT HAVE TO PAY $160,000. They pay it because it is the market rate and the market always defines the worth or value of an employee. Why would anyone pay an employee a salary if the employee was not "worth" it. Even if you were to put a price tag on the actual work that a first year associate does, they are still "worth" it from the perspective that (1) law firms make a profit and (2) the clients make a profit or save money by employing the law firm who employs the first year associate to perform some function. Back to economics though... is your Sony 52inch plasma "worth" $3000? It didn't cost Sony that much to make it and you will most likely get more than $3000 worth of entertainment out of it, so how do you value its worth? The market price, i.e. how much one person is willing to pay for something regardless of someone else disagrees and thinks that the person is overpaying.

168 - it will not make sense for firms to defer both classes.
Like earlier commenters mentioned, law firms have a bias towards normal progression through the system.

2009 is screwed, 2010 and beyond (who get offers)are fine

170 = 2L who'se trying to convince himself he's safe. 2009 is fine if they're fine. Some will be screwed same as half of 2010 will be screwed.

The Class of 2009 is screwed. The Class of 2010 will be screwed also. Both classes will be screwed. Don't take the $65,000. If you do you will look like a loser who was afraid to compete. Start as soon as you can and hope to God that you get enough hours to be busy. Law firms will not be safe again until at 2011 or 2012 at the earliest.

The sheer number of unemployed former associates (1st years through 7th years) walking the streets is staggering. When law firms get busy again, maybe in 2010 or so, they will be hiring these people off the streets, and not sniveling law students. They can get these experienced lawyers for about the same money as new grads and not take any kind of hit at all if they lay them off six months later. It will take a year or two to soak up the supply of experienced attorneys. Then it will be safe again for new grads. Maybe the Classes of 2011 or 2012 will be in good shape.

I am not a laid off associate, but I do know a couple of experience associates from top schools with good credentials who would gladly "take" "your" job.

158: wow. Forget being tired of your ilk, I'm just tired of you. You are clearly some underworked midlevel peon who thinks he Knows Everything and can be "clever" in his comments. I'm going to be thrilled when you are laid off, because you irritate the crap out of me.

PANIC PANIC PANIC.
if Shearman screws over two classes, their reputation at law schools will take a huge hit. if both classes above the current 1Ls are talking crap about shearman, no 1L will want to touch that firm.

173 = in need of a sense of humor - someone please get this guy some water! he's gonna pop!

Check this out. When SS made an offer to 128 3Ls , the firm thought that there woudl be 256K of billable work to keep those new attorneys busy. What happened? Suddenly there is no longer 256K hours of work? Don't even address the hoarding of work that is going on by the existing attorneys in the firm, at all levels. Multilpy 256K by the hourly rate (take away the salaries and the overhead allcoation) and that is an enormous drop in income to the firm. Any way you slice it, loss of biusiness, drop in fee income, the firm is screaming that it is in trouble. On top of the plunge in business, SS is paying 8.3M for 3Ls to stay away. And they are collapsing 09 and 10. I wonder how OCI 09 will go for them, if they even make it until then. The Titantic has hit an iceberg. They can make it if they slash partner ranks (deadwood), partner draws and salaries and bonuses for associates and staff (like a normal business facing hard times would), but I don't think anyone honestly believes that will happen. They will just pull a Heller/Thelen/WolfBlock and implode.

162, entering the JAG corps is a fine career option, but interim? How "interim" is an 8 year commitment?

(sniffs some white under a tattered 'Yes We Can' Obama campaign poster flapping in the wind)

DAMN!!!

The ship be sinking...

177, I really haven't checked it out but my cousin was in for less than 4 years so I assume there are shorter options out there.

Sorry--- it was actually 4 years less some accrued leave.

Be realistic just because they pushed back start dates doesn't mean that they will eventually all be hired. It is just to string them along until the backoffices in India get up an running.

Noooodah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

176 - I call bullsh*t!

Shearman, unlike the aforementioned dissolved firms, has legacy clients, which no individual partner can take with them when they lateral. This is why you will not see a dissolution a la Heller.

156-not the same poster to which you responded, but I must disagree with you, if you are talking about writing only. Some partners write worse than some incoming first years. That's a fact.

As a class of 09 incoming associate at S&C, I'd like to thank the partners for berating and scaring 1/3 of the associates into leaving each year the past 5 years - making plenty of room for us. And even for the class of 2010.

And I assure you that you can abuse us as much as you want, and we won't leave. Take that, attrition

i am loving the dow is up guy vs. the dow is down guy. loving it.

M&A boost for US law firms in Latin America
Feb 09 2009, 03:18 AM
Skadden Arps, White & Case, Shearman & Sterling and other major U.S. law firms have seen a massive growth in their Latin American M&A business.

Skadden has doubled the value of its Latin America M&A deals from $7.1bn in 2007 to $15.0bn in 2008.

82 - I think it's pretty clear you can take the money and run. It doesn't appear (from this memo at least) that you have to sign a contract or agree to anything. They give you $65k and an offer to join in 2010 in return for you not joining with them in 2009. You can accept that new offer or not.

This doesn't sound like a bad deal. The experience you'll get as a public interest attorney is 1000x more meaningful than what you'd get as a first year at a big firm, even during good times. Now, when you'd face the possibility of virtually zero work, many 2009 first years are doomed to become second years who are barely more competent than they were when they started. Those who accept this deal and use the time to gain skills and experience are going to be far better off than their colleagues in the long run.

I just sharted.

147: Seems to me like you have found your own answer

Shearman & Sterling rose to 7th place on the Thomson tables, with $82 billion in deals, up from 25th a year earlier. Shearman has been particularly busy in Germany, where it has been advising a number of troubled German financial institutions in deals related to government capital injection; it represented Morgan Stanley on the Merck/Schering-Plough deal; and it was tapped as US counsel for Suncor Energy on its recently announced $35 billion acquisition of Petro-Canada.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2009/04/skadden-wachtell-top-quarterly-ma-legal-advisory-tables.html

I'm an Army JAG. It is an 8-year committment (four active, four in the reserves) if you go active. You can also do reserve (8-year reserve commitment). On the reserve route, you have to go to officer training anf JAG training and all told that can amount to 6 months of employment right there, then you would go back to being a civilian but would be in the Army Reserve and would have to do one weekend per month and two weeks per year.

You could also volunteer for a mobilization ranging from 6 months to a year if you are still unemployed in the civilian sector after the six months of training. You can keep re-upping for those mobilizations again and again (I work with Reservists who have chosen to be mobilized for several years now).

If you go Active though (at least in the Army), you have four years active duty.

I love my job. I make enough to live well in the DC area plus put back savings each month. I'll have enough to buy a place in another year or two. When I was in Iraq, I made enough to put about $40K on my student loans in one year.

It's not for everyone, but it's a great option for some.

Just so everyone affected by this knows:

TAKE the 65K and get another job! They can't do shit to you, just let them send you checks while someone else also pays you...TRUST ME they will never find out unless your dumbass tells them...

THUG LIFE BABAY

I would kill for 65K to do nothing for a year. What is with the complaining? So you might not have a job when you return? Hell, you might take the job and get laid off within a year. Life's a gamble. You roll with the punches. STOP BITCHING BIATCHES!!!

191:

If they are so F...ing busy why in the hell are they screwing over they Class of 2009??

Just because they are "advising" a number of troubled German financial firms doesn't mean said troubled financial firms are paying their bills.

Why is this so surprising to people? It's supply and demand. The demand for legal services has eroded along with the rest of the economy. That means firms providing legal services need to scale back and eliminate unused capacity. I can't believe this site is getting so much airtime on the subject. Is there nothing else worth discussing?

The demand has eroded is what they want you to believe but Biglaw is scrambling to India with the new law in effect to allow foreign ownership of law practices as long as they do not practice law in India.

Hey law students? Do you have stories about how much it sucks to be a lawstudent now? Or are you constantly surrounded by assholes? Something funny to share?

Email your story to lawstudentssuck@gmail.com

This will be for an article on the current suckiness of lawschool in general during these economic times.

This deferral deal seems much better than other firms because there is no requirement to get a public interest job. You can get paid $65k to literally do nothing, or, find another job and still get the $64K. I think all these firms are doing this hoping that the people who defer will just take the money and go away. They want to avoid the potential liability of rescinding offers outright, while giving people the same idea. Take the money and run.

Lawyers from US, UK find jobs in India
27 Mar 2009,

BANGALORE: Indian law firms and legal process outsourcing outfits have been attracting many American and British law professionals in the past
few months.

The reason: The recession has severely impacted the global legal practising industry; one out of every 10 lawyers in the US is said to have been laid off. To cut cost, many corporations are discontinuing their contracts with external law firms or are outsourcing a substantial portion of their legal engagements to countries like India. This has resulted in a flood of US/UK lawyer CVs to India.

122 Here.

@166 - I don't disagree with you at all. The whole system is broken. Lock step raises every year just aggravate the problem - kind of like compounding interest on a loan for which the collateral has gone to hell. The hole just keeps getting deeper. No other profession or just plain JOB I am aware of follows an even similar business model

@169 - Gee, you'e so smart I had to slink into a hole for awhile. Yeah, the market has never overvalued a commodity and required an adjustment. And the banks are doing great. Oh yeah, and tech stocks are awesome - you should go buy some stock in Idon'tknowcrapabouttheeconomy.com.

I am lucky, I still have an offer with one of the big dogs and so far I am still supposed to be paid $160k. Of course, my start date is now later than before, and that hurts like hell because of the student loans, but I know alot of people in worse places. I also have alot more practical experience than most fellow graduates I know, but not being consumed in my own overblown self-worth I can tell you that I am in no way worth $160k fresh out of school and won't deserve a $10k raise every year - no one who is honest with themselves and has an ounce of genuine introspective ability can claim they are.

Of course that in no way means I won't take that money if they're willing to hand it to me. And I'll do everything I can to come as close as I can to genuinely earning it. We are all in a bad position right now, but whining and make pseudo-intellectual radio talk-show host arguments doesn't help anyone. (I mean you 169 - you and many others.)

And maybe SS doesn't plan to hire these people - fine - at least they have a chance to plan for that now. Those young associates who got blindsided - I feel bad for them. (Though their whining is getting old too. Quantity does not equal quality people - my plumber could walk into a law firm and figure a way to bill 2000 hours a year. That doesn't mean I want to pay for what he produced. And I am not saying everyone who got fired deserved it, but the ones who weren't wasted space - they're busy trying to figure out their lives and behaving like adults - not sitting on ATL whining to law students about how unfair life is.)

And yeah, you might have to work for the government a few years. Or you might have to move back in with your parents and live of court appointments. You might even have to get a job that doesn't use your law degree. If you are too good to work anywhere other than behind a desk with a ridiculous salary then you are pathetic. You're not the first person to have your hopes and dreams dashed nor will you be the last. So go cry in the corner for a few minutes because it hurts (I am being serious here, not sarcastic) and then get the hell over it and figure out what you need to do next.

you have a plumber?

122/201 here to 202

Well played sir, you cracked me up there. Sadly, though, I have had to call the man enough times that I am willing to say yes.

20: Analysis and Mystal? See the problem here?

199 you're insane if you think this deal is better than other firms. it's 10k less, a few other firms also let you do nothing, and it seems that S&S gives your less assurances that they'll hire you back.

Yo, assholes, this motherfucker's dead!

Everyone keeps ignoring the real problem here--excessive tomfoolery precipitated by erroneous pogo stick methodology!

201 - "a lot" is a 2 word expression. Further, the term "Of course" should not be used so lively - unless you've walked in those shoes.

Your March Madness ranking of this firm was BS. Safe? Not a chance... this ship is rusting at the bottom of the ocean.

208 - glad to know that is all you had to pick apart on the posting. (Seriously - you critique using "of course" twice in an obscenely long entry?) Sorry, next time I will make sure to spend 2 hours proofreading and revising before posting to a blog.

Wait, no of course I actually won't. By the way, "lively" is an adjective, not an adverb. Even if you had used the proper adverb to modify the verb "to use" I am not sure your sentence really made much sense. So go back tomorrow and tell your little 1L writing class professor that they make you look like an idiot when you regurgitate their crap to others.

43 - if there was no mercy you wouldn't be getting paid for 6 months. douche

183 - I call bullshit on you. Legacy clients? Merrill? Citi? The place is falling apart. Delayed start dates, announced staff layoffs, unannounced associate layoffs (which have gone on now for a nearly a year), forcing half the London office to move to UAE. Look out for a US office closing by the end of the year.

But it is all okay because, along with David Hasselhoff, Germans love S&S.

When should we expect to see the money? I'm thinking this is a great deal, but if you accept the deferral, they'll just rescind in about 4 months.

Have fun eating at Cosi all summer, Class of 2010.

- class 2009, sitting on the beach with my $65k

One of the worst firms out here. they should pay associates not to work there.The Managing Partner John Wilson is such a douche. He rents in Sea Cliff but, tells eveyone he bought a house there because Pacific Heights was too low income for him. They finally got rid of the office manager there after years of abuse and incompetence. A NY firm will never be much of anything in SF. The partners would sell their mother if they could squeeze out another dollar out of an associate.

wah wah wah...65k is 3 TIMES what i made when i got my first legal aid job 15 years ago (which took me a year after graduation to get due to the flooded job market). 65k is not that much less than what i make now doing real attorney work trying to save people's lives. And yes, i went to a top 15 law school, graduated with a decent GPA, and successfully took and passed 4 bar exams on the first try (including the last two, which had 59 and 62 percent pass rates when I took them). Why don't you take the 65k and go find out what being a REAL lawyer feels like? Who knows? You just might find you like it after all....