Start Date Watch: More Firms Deferring Associates
There are still firms that are just now announcing start dates, even though we’re nearing the end of April.
Kilpatrick Stockton has the most interesting news. Yesterday, incoming first years were informed that they would not be able to start until April 2010. It’s a mandatory deferral. Above the Law received this statement from co-managing partner Diane Prucino:
Kilpatrick Stockton announced today that it will delay the start date of the firm’s Fall 2009 entry associates class. Entry associates are scheduled to join the firm in April 2010. Firm departments will have flexibility to have their entry associates join their teams earlier, depending on work levels. All entry associates will be offered a two-month salary advance.Though the firm remains strong in this challenging and volatile business environment and had a solid financial year in 2008, this difficult decision is structured to further improve the long-term success of the firm and to enhance the achievement of our strategic goals through more efficient use of personnel and realignment of our expense structure. We, like other leading law firms, believe these measures are necessary to adapt to changes in the economy and to the demand for certain legal services. There is an intense commitment to enhancing the firm’s first-rate, innovative and cost-effective client service. With these goals in mind, Kilpatrick Stockton is dedicated to continuing to identify strategic growth opportunities to expand our world-class firm and improve our competitive position in the marketplace.
Kilpatrick’s deferral stipend isn’t very competitive compared to what other firms are offering for shorter deferment periods. As we understand it, Kilpatrick is only offering $17,000 to its incoming first years. It’s not even a deferral “stipend,” it is a deferral advance. Associates will have to pay the money back once they start at the firm.
Hopefully Kilpatrick Stockton won’t cut salaries over the next year on its incoming first years who suddenly have more debt.
News from Andrews Kurth, Bingham McCutchen, and Dechert after the jump.
This morning, the Philadelphia Business Journal reported that Dechert decided to break up its incoming class over three different start dates:
The firm said groups of three evenly split entry-level lawyers will start at three different points — fall 2009, March 2010 and fall 2010.Dechert said it will ask the incoming associates to pick their preferred start date and, taking those responses into account along with other factors including its capacity in various practice groups, will decide who will begin when.
In addition to the bar stipend, March starters at Dechert will receive a $17,500 stipend. Dechert will pay $75,000 for incoming associates deferred a full year. But:
Any of the deferred lawyers will be expected to secure jobs with either public service or public interest legal organizations until they start with the firm.
We hope incoming first years at Dechert haven’t been waiting to hear from the firm and instead were out there actively pursuing public interest opportunities. But if you can get a public interest job, Dechert’s year long deferral stipend matches the top of the market for deferrals.
Bingham McCutchen and Andrews Kurth also pushed back start dates today. The deferral is minor compared to what Dechert and Kilpatrick have announced. Incoming associates at these two firms will be able to start in January of 2010.
Andrews Kurth is offering a $10,000 deferral stipend. It’s a true stipend, not a loan or advance.
Bingham also seems to be getting the money right. The firm is giving its standard $10,000 bar stipend. In addition they will be paying a $10,000 deferral stipend once people graduate. On top of that, the firm will make another $10,000 available as an advance should students want or require the money. Even though incoming associates will have to pay some of the money back, there is $30,000 on the table for students trying to make it from law school graduation to the new year.
Good luck to all the deferred 3Ls. Hopefully every 3L will know when they will be allowed to start working by the end of the month.
Dechert delays new hire start dates [Philadelphia Business Journal]
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of start dates
(119) Comments
Comments
first SFL sux
Sounds like something McDermott Will & Emery might do...
I heard Latham deferred half of their first years to January 19, 20never.
Top of the market for year-long deferrals is 80K (75K seems to be the standard though).
By the way, can someone let me know when it is 4:20?
-Mike P.
What's up with Kirkland?
No deferred associates will actually start in January. No way in hell.
kilstock is poopy
Does anyone want to meet me at the Burger King and have sex?
Elie
It was suggested in comments on a recent post that, because the stock market is at 1997 levels, associate pay should be too ($60-70K for first years). That seems an eminently reasonable step, as does trimming associate ranks to where they were in 1997 as well. I know it sucks to take that hit, but that's really where things should be and where it looks like things are going.
@9 - You are not really Elie. Are you?
10, stock market isn't a good indicator of the economy, never has been.
How about we put associate pay at the same level as when profits per partner were this low? Or firm revenues? Because in that case for many firms we would still be at 160K.
Any news about DPW's starting date? Is it still the usual Sept date?
which group might get a chance to start early at kilpatrick?
dont worry about DPW
....an advance? what a bitch!!
Hey 10, what were PPP in '97? How much was bread? A stamp? A Yankees ticket? Rent? While we're resetting, how much was in your bank account? Have you had kids since '97 that we can get rid of?
Here, dumbass: http://www.coli.org/
Any word on Stroock?
12, I agree that the stock market does not always reflect economic realities, but in this case it's a good measure. Partners have lost a ton of money in stock market-based investments like 401(k)s, so it only makes sense to set associate salaries at that level too. Associates have, as a group, lost far less than partners and will have time to make it up when and as the market increases.
10 - sounds great as long as billing rates, law school tuition, and cost of living are all reduced to 1997 levels too. great, flawless plan.
I found out about Dechert's late start dates from someone who saw it online. They didn't even contact us to let us know about it. All the partners are on a partner retreat in Miami and are unavailable to answer questions.
Are other firms are taking the same approach for specific practice groups? e.g. if you have a technical degree and know you're going into the IP group, do you get to start before your incoming classmates if the IP group has the work?
18 - I'll support your proposal when law school tuitions and existing loan debts are reduced to 1997 levels.
are you serious? even if you loose half of your millions of dollars compared to someone whos loosing only a 160,000 job...that's still everything for an associate!!!
16, of course there are arguments to be made that those levels and others should also be adjusted during this downturn, but tying associate compensation to the performance of the stock market in historical terms is a good bright-line that just makes economic sense. I'm sure firms will come to that conclusion before too long.
PE come back
We miss hating you.
23, people are losing $160,000 jobs only because they should be $60-70,000 jobs in the first place, like they were when the Dow was at this level in 1997.
these firms are nothing but jarvis probes
Shocking news that an Atlanta firm is not the market leader in compensation
22: Well, unfortunately, that's what happens in a recession: it gets more expensive (i.e., higher tuition) to make less money (i.e., lower associate pay). I agree that it's unfortunate, but that's where things are trending.
are you serious? even if you loose half of your millions of dollars compared to someone whos loosing only a 160,000 job...that's still everything for an associate!!!
20 has no idea what he is talking about. The partnership is not on retreat and a firm wide email was sent out yesterday about start dates. Also the info you are reporting is not totally accurate, the firm will help incoming associates secure pro Bono work.
COST OF LIVING IDIOTS>..you cannot pay people 100k less when they took 100 k more in loans you jackasses....the coli has increased so much because of the wasteful spending of the government...just wait and see what happens when obama spends 10 trillion dollars...it will take 350,000 to feel like you have a middle class lifestyle..
Is it just me or is ATL slowly becoming only compelling reading for prospective and current law students. Too much of the focus lately has been on items of very limited interest to practicing attorneys. Someone in comments even referred to ATL as a message board. Is that what it's slowly becoming? A place to sound off for law students rather than a place for legal news? All I know is that my friends are starting to check it far less regularly.
20 has no idea what he is talking about. The partnership is not on retreat and a firm wide email was sent out yesterday about start dates. Also the info you are reporting is not totally accurate, the firm will help incoming associates secure pro Bono work.
20 has no idea what he is talking about. The partnership is not on retreat and a firm wide email was sent out yesterday about start dates. Also the info you are reporting is not totally accurate, the firm will help incoming associates secure pro Bono work.
Once Cap and Trade is passed, no more firms will defer start dates.
The ship be sinking...
31 - jackass. the firmwide email doesn't go to incoming associates.
even assuming, arguendo, that giant human embryos live in outer space, incoming associate start dates are still a major concern to many of us and deserve to be discussed, a fortiori.
actually dechert is matching top of the market, because the $75,000 deferral stipend to start in Fall 2010 is in addition to their bar stipend.
which burger king?
actually Dechert is top of the market because the $75,000 deferral stipend is in addition to the bar stipend
Hi, I'm the economy and this is what I'm doing to you.
1. Pull out my 10" sausage.
2. Make you suck it, causing you to choke numerous times.
3. Making you lube it up, knwoing where it will go.
4. Putting you on your knees and ramming it in your ass. Making you scream.
5. Flipping you over and doing you missionary anal style.
6. While you lay on your back, lifting your butt in the air, so you're resting on your neck and shoulders. banging you that way as I stand over you (you're looking at my taint).
7. Gonig back for more doggie.
8. shooting all over your face.
9. making you lick the brown stuff off of my sausage.
That's what I'm dong to you. I'm the economy.
actually Dechert is top of the market because the $75,000 deferral stipend is in addition to the bar stipend
More proof that the Class of '09 is the lost generation.
You do know, don't you, that none of you will ever actually start at any of these firms.
Latham has no deferral stipend for 3Ls starting right before January 2010
More proof that the Class of '09 is the lost generation.
You do know, don't you, that none of you will ever actually start at any of these firms.
More proof that the Class of '09 is the lost generation.
You do know, don't you, that none of you will ever actually start at any of these firms.
Baker Botts is starting everyone in mid-November. I think that's better than just about every other Texas firm out there.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but could any associate make an antitrust claim against the law firms for all lowering salaries? What if I show that the law firm partners are known to talk to each other? Someone earlier mentioned the Sherman Antitrust Act of '90...
god i'm so depressed. i need a job. one that pays enough to payoff my loans.
-suicidal laid off latham first year
43 = the most disgusting thing since butt-cheeks guy.
both of you, Kill self.
DPW gave 3Ls their start dates last week - Sept, Oct or Nov depending on choice - just like any other year.
Stroock?
I thought DecherTTT had already announced start dates? I can't believe firms are still changing them around this late in the game . . .
Dear M. Phelps.
I live in Texas. It is currently 4:20
Enjoy!!
I have a question -- If you clerk, are law firms still giving the $75k stipend?
--Nervous T-10 2L
53 - Classic DPW arrogance.
Just like any other year...except for the stealth layoffs to which DPW associates may fall victim once they start.
What's the problem? You didn't have a job before they offered you one, and now you don't have a job. If you hadn't taken the job, you still would have been dumped by any other firm making you an offer. Life's a bitch, and then you die. What more can you ask for?
Latham, will you pay for my visit with Dr. Kevorkian? It'd be mutually beneficial, as I'm sure you'd LOVE to see me disappear.
-suicidal laid off latham 1st year
Lat - please remove 43.
43-that sounds hot. where do i sign up?
Great...so some more chumps whose only talent is memo writing and butt kissing are going to be competing for public interest/pro bono jobs. The work done by most public interest orgs involves real clients. What will these people do if faced with a client meeting? Run away? Cry? Ask for money? The whole assumption that these people can just get a public interest job with no experience is ridiculous.
45/47/48,
What year are you? What basis do you have to make that prediction?
More importantly, if you're a 1L or 2L, keep in mind that what these firms do to us, they will probably do to you as well.
- Deferred 3L
45/47/48 judging by the fact that he/she submitted the comment 3 times is almost certainly still in lawschool.
If you're prediction is correct, and you're a 2L, that means you wont get an offer. If you're a 1L, that means you wont get an interview.
Be careful rubbing it in to the class of 2009, pal.
- another deferred 3L
23- Loose - when your pants are too big; lose - when you can't find what you had before.
Learn the language a-hole.
More layoffs at SRZ, yahooooooo!!!!! ATL people please read: more people laid off.... In the Business transaction group, as always only women get laid off. I initially thought is was because they did not want to sleep with the assigning partner of the BT group, who has not seen a woman since 1985.... but now there is an exciting new development. Blind Item Guessing Game: who is the female special counsel, very overweight (she is trying to loose it but when you are a fat ass bitch it's kind of tricky) who is throwing all the successful mid level female associated under the bus because she does not like the way they dress or because they have a rich and handsome husband??? the Fat, Cat-loving bitch pretends to be their friends at times, has drinks with them and even goes to big ticket events with them flying all the way to other countries, then.... when asked what she thinks about them, the answer is that the associate: (i) an early bloomer, (ii) her work product sucks, (iii) plainly dumb...
Now that her game is about to be discovered she can expect people to go to her house in Jersey and have a talk with her cats....
and 67- Loose - when your pants are too big; lose - when you can't find what you had before.
Learn the language a-hole.
45/47/49 is probably basing his/her statement on the fact that there won't be any fucking room for two classes to start at once (i.e., '09 and '10), nor will firms defer year after year after year in order to keep everyone.
That means that sometime this fall, many firms will call their deferred associates ('09 grads), tell them to go to hell, offer a "severance," and hope that things are better when the '10 grads show up.
Hence, '09 is a lost generation.
45s a tool.
2009 might be screwed, yes, but we have a leg up on 2010 and 2011. they already paid for my exorbitant summer and my bar fees. theyve already done all my paperwork and proudly showed off my credentials to their clients in their promotional bullshit.
2010 will get some offers, but not nearly as much. it makes more financial sense to squeeze them out somewhat. the real tragedies are the 2011s, bec they havent cost a dime of the firms money yet and likely wont, ever.
well know pretty quickly how many interviews the firms are granting to rising 2Ls at the top schools.
Not so, 69 and 70.
45/47/49 is probably basing his/her statement on the fact that there won't be any fucking room for two classes to start at once (i.e., '09 and '10), nor will firms defer year after year after year in order to keep everyone.
That means that sometime this fall, many firms will call their deferred associates ('09 grads), tell them to go to hell, offer a "severance," and hope that things are better when the '10 grads show up.
Don't put your faith in firms' business sense - they don't have any - in the hope that their current investment in you means anything to them.
Hence, '09 is a lost generation.
-not 45 et al.
43 - You know your IP can be traced right? You don't sound like the kind of guy who routes his IP through dark networks for anonymity. Just guessing...
58 - classic law student ignorance, in believing that layoffs were any more than a small handful and that reciprocal layoffs also didn't occur at all peer firms.
69,
as to the first paragraph, agreed.
as to the rest...there is really no way of knowing what firms will do. they may do as you've described, or they may not give any (or a low percentage of) offers to the 2010 class.
if firms wise-up and change their model (by cutting salaries, getting rid of lockstep, etc...) there may not be a lost generation at all.
all I'm saying is, there is no way of knowing how this will shake out.
however, 70 makes a great point, firms have already dumped millions on the class of 2009, and havent spent a dime on 2010 or 2011 yet.
Where is the list of shame???
67,
more info on SRZ please
Oh, you poor associates trying to convince yourselves that incoming associates will feel the wrath of law firm layoffs instead of yourselves. What you don't realize is that law firms will wait until the end of the summer to evaluate the situation because they don't want to engage in further layoffs until the summer associates are gone. Then, if the economy hasn't picked back up they will layoff current associates to make room for the incoming classes. They will do this because a) it will result in less of a reputational hit to future recruiting efforts, and b) it is cheaper to have first-year associates doing nothing than mid-level associates. Do the math. Fired mid-August. Out by mid-November. New associates in after the holidays. Not to mention that law firms know that a good portion of you would have left the firm within the past year or would leave in the coming year if the economy weren’t in such bad shape. The firm isn’t going to hang on to you just so that a large portion of you can leave when exit opportunities reappear. I sympathize for you, but perhaps instead of being dicks and scaring incoming associates in some effort to make yourselves feel more secure, you should prepare for the much more likely scenario.
COLI fanatics and other whiners: Let's not use 1997, but 1982. First-years were paid about $35K. The COLI adjuster is 2.11. That gives us, rounding up, about $75,000. Don't complain about PPP, because that's gone up by only about the same percentage, at our firm at least, particularly after you take into account the fact that partners are much less secure and the lower-paid ones are pushed out much more quickly.
I like your sunk cost analysis, 70. If only it were even remotely applicable to the way Biglaw works. Keep trying with the analysis though, if for no other reason than our amusement.
can we get a list of firms that haven't announced start dates yet? are there any v50 firms that haven't announced yet?
77, don't be so sure. Latham NY kept it's midlevels and seniors, and completely massacred the first and second year classes. More than half the first years were let go after only several months of work.
70, please understand the concept of sunk costs. You may think you know what it means, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
The real answer is that the classes of 2009 to 2013 are all screwed. The classes of 2014 and 2015 might do ok if Obama loses re-election (unless you think that higher taxes on partners mean that the partners will spend more on associate salaries). Change we can believe in.
77 is spot on. Law firms are nowhere near done laying off associates. Expect more perfornance/stealth layoffs as the summer rolls on too.
77, you forget about training costs. If I, like you, were a 3L, I would tell myself this everyday. On the other hand, I think the reality is that 3rd, 4th, 5th years are the safest.
Freeze their salaries, they are relatively cheap (compared to seniors), yet can bill out with less supervision (compared to 1st years). The beauty of this is that you just freeze their salaries for two years. So you basically have senior associates at mid-level prices. FML.
77, you forget about training costs. If I, like you, were a 3L, I would tell myself this everyday. On the other hand, I think the reality is that 3rd, 4th, 5th years are the safest.
Freeze their salaries, they are relatively cheap (compared to seniors), yet can bill out with less supervision (compared to 1st years). The beauty of this is that you just freeze their salaries for two years b/c no one will leave. So you basically have senior associates at mid-level prices. When its time to re-up, you just bring in fresh blood and maybe a lateral or two. FML.
Elie? David? Anybody?
Please moderate 43 - and maybe block 43's IP, too.
71, actually what will happen is that the class of 2009 will quietly be told to go to hell and the class of 2010 will be no-offered/cold-offered by the truckload. Bottom line: we're all doomed.
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Could the 5 remaining firms who haven't announced announce? You guys are being real jerks.
Don't let this sadden you, young attorneys and would-be attorneys of the United States. Save those tears for when your start date with my cannibal horde is pushed back. And we eat you. And your tears.
Yours,
Lord Humungous.
72, why would 43 be worried about IP tracing for that post?
This is so short-sighted. The market is back, and firms that are caught in the tail end of the deferral craze are foolishly taking themselves out of the game for post-recession work. The real issue here is whether firms will have the option of requiring their associates to being work early if they've committed to deferrals; firms are going to be desperate for associates when the tsunami of work hits. When that happens, associates will be back in control and firms will have to offer bonuses in order for their associates to set aside their deferral periods to come work.
Signed,
The Dow is Up Guy
75 down, 25 to go... this news is not good for Ropes and Goodwin. They cheaped out and Bingham will overtake them in the rankings.
Still to confirm/announce???
5 Davis Polk & Wardwell
10 Kirkland & Ellis LLP
14 Williams & Connolly LLP
20 Arnold & Porter LLP
23 Jones Day
32 Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP
35 Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver & Hedges LLP
38 Allen & Overy LLP
46 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
56 Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
58 Fish & Richardson P.C.
61 Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP
68 Steptoe & Johnson LLP
70 Kaye Scholer LLP
74 Reed Smith LLP
75 Patton Boggs LLP
79 Howrey LLP
80 Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP
81 Crowell & Moring LLP
83 Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP
88 Dickstein Shapiro LLP
91 Lovells
93 Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP
94 Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel LLP
100 Fenwick & West LLP
93, your list sucks, a lot of those firms have announced
93 - I think the most recent list is... (so 18 to go)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP
Williams & Connolly LLP
Arnold & Porter LLP
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
Fish & Richardson P.C.
Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP
Steptoe & Johnson LLP
Reed Smith LLP
Patton Boggs LLP
Howrey LLP
Crowell & Moring LLP
Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP
Dickstein Shapiro LLP
Lovells
Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP
Fenwick & West LLP
92: You certainly are not me. However, the Dow is indeed up and these firms are undoubtedly foolish.
49 is a notorious fellatrix.
Some people think Kilpatrick Stockton is based in Pittsburgh, but it's not. It's based in Atlanta. K&L Gates is based in Pittsburgh.
HTH
7--
Gotta be a joke. Kilpatrick's deferred associates are going to start in April 2010, not January 2010.
33 -- The site has grown increasingly childish, faddy, and netty, but as an associate lawyer, I'm deeply concerned about the trend of salary cuts.
33/100 - To start ATL needs to stop participating in the childish discussions... doesn't seem too professional to actually make references to commenters (like the dow is up guy - see http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/salary_cut_watch_chadbourne_pa.php)
100 = not an attorney
I feel bad for the class of '11. '09 ppl already have (deferred and at risk) jobs, and '10 ppl are in oversubscribed summer classes because many firms did not expect such high acceptance rates, so the '11 SA classes will be very small. Firms know they will have too many jr lawyers from '09 and '10. Getting a summer offer is going to be really tough for 2Ls this year.
102 -- Yeah, I am.
kirkland chicago just announced - midnovember
105: What is your source?
STB has confirmed start dates for incoming first year associates. At least in NYC.
Business as normal (Sept., Oct., & Nov.)
I don't know how childish it actually is for people to be pissed at firms/partners that mismanaged their businesses and then shove all the pain onto staff and associates.
At TTThompson Hine, they made a lot of irresponsible decisions, then fired a bunch of associates and cut salaries by $17,500 annual.
Are you an associate at Thompson Hine? If so, their shitty decisions cost you a total of $17,500 this year. Total of $35,000 next year. Total of $52,500 come year three.
Long story short, their feeding everyone a hot juicy dick sandwich, and people are understandably upset. Under the circumstances, although it is somewhat vitriolic, I'm don't know that it is childish to suggest that many of the partners at Thompson Hine are morons that don't understand simple risk management principles, have no idea how to run their own business, and should therefore inspire considerable skepticism in any client considering allowing the firm to advise its business operations.
Just my opinion. Call it childish if you like.
-Rogue Associate
93/95: I think that Cahill deferred incoming associates to January about a week ago.
no calls or e-mails from kirkland chicago yet (at least on my end). 105, what's your source?
no calls or e-mails from kirkland chicago yet (at least on my end). 105, what's your source?
105 doesn't have a source. S/he is lying. Kirkland hasn't said anything. Stop making sh*t up.
Not sure what you're referring to at Thompson Hine, 108, but most clients, consultants, and partners think that the biggest irresponsible decision that law firms made was paying first-years so much in the first place. It meant that firms were guaranteed not to make any money on them until they were at least in their fourth year and that they had to demand higher and higher hours from them and everyone up the line. It also pushed overall associate compensation up, but meant that more senior associates and income partners made not that much more than people with much less experience.
Baker & Daniels (Indianapolis) announced yesterday that they will defer half of their incoming class by "up to a year."
King and spalding just announced further delay of start dates (from january 09) to January 0fuckingnever.
So happy I joined Kenyon. No deferrals. No salary cuts. Take that. In your ass.
Stroock = defer until oct. 2009, no biggie.
Kirkland Chicago has orally confirmed start dates (paperwork to follow). It'll be in the fall for sure! Either two start dates in November or one. Nov. 30th at the latest.
Kirkland DC has 2 start dates in November: Nov. 16th and Nov. 30th.
117, I summered at Stroock last summer and have not heard anything. Where did you hear that the start date is Oct? Thanks!