What is the difference between Partner Emeritus and an Iraqi journalist?

Is there a Loyola in every city?

I will gladly pay Loyola Tuesday for a J.D. degree today...

And here I thought this article was going to be about a pissed off, unemployed law graduate demanding a refund for his entire degree.

And here I thought this article was going to be about a pissed off, unemployed law graduate demanding a refund for his entire degree. I guess that's a non-story. Oh wait... this one is, too.

If this doesn't beg of a promissory estoppel claim, then I don't know what does.

So what did the prof actually teach? The student never mentions that.

Just throwing this out there - but I wonder if this student would have a reliance claim. What I'm getting at is, he or she took the class in reliance on certain promises made in the course description, and relied on that to his or her detriment (i.e., both in paying tuition and in foregoing other classes that would have been more useful). Not sure if there is any nuance I am missing under Illinois law, but under general contract law principles this should be a slam dunk promissory estoppel claim.

Is the school were they stole a shoe during a party with Mexicans?

This can't be real. No one would do this 5 days before graduation.

This begs the question to be begged, how do you like your munger?

This post is horrendous. The couple paragraphs lead one to believe that the email will be related to the job market and stress about debt and then we find out the kid has a job and is only complaining about the content of one course.

AWFUL, AWFUL POST.

Yikes.....stress handling fail. Anyone who takes one of these type class is an idiot anyway. Of course it divulged into what happened in class as she described, it's law school. A 3L should know better.

11 - reading comp.

13's right. The title and first two paragraphs are good, but this is the wrong story for them.

Clients never ask lawyers to go beyond the bounds of a 100 word paragraph describing, in general terms, the scope of their needs.

Also, a business background is not necessary to read the newspaper or watch the news any time in the last 10 months.

sounds like a good professor - at least someone is pointing out that the federal gov'ts funneling of trillions of dollars via the treasury and federal reserve to incompetant and corrupt bankers might be wrong. she should listen and learn a little something.

It's "free rein," not "free reign." Bad 3L.

This student sounds like a loon, but we have no idea what went on in that class. I took an accounting class in law school for much of the same reasons as this person, except my class was taught by a grad student in the business school (credit applied to law degree); and sure enough, nothing except accounting and homework exercises were discussed. Above is right that these sorts of classes should not be taken (nor taught) in a law school.

*SELLS MY BODY FOR RENT MONEY*

-suicidal laid off Latham 1st year

the promissory estoppel guy might be right on this one

this wasn't so bad, i was hoping for some sort of demand for tuition because the school lied in their employment stats or something. if she just sent this to the dean and cc'd the prof this would be fine. sometimes courses do suck and professors should be held accountable.

Don't these idiots know that their emails are going to be up on Above the Law just a few hours after sending????

I wonder if this person was also snubbed in the process of selecting a student speaker at graduation.

Accounting and corporate finance class taught by Commerce school profs. Did I learn both? Yes. Is it helpful now? not really.

Don't these idiots know that their emails are going to be up on Above the Law just a few hours after sending????

11- it is real. The email was forwarded by students in the class to other Loyola students all day long.

you're a moron if you think that taking a class that doesn't meet your specific expectations entitles you to a promissory estoppel action. the prof still taught - whether or not it met this kid's expectations are ridiculous and too subjective for a court to even think twice about. it is common knowledge that your profs are going to deviate a bit from the course description; unless the prof went off the deep end, this moron did nothing but put a huge target on his head.

Did crazy read the syllabus? Did the course follow the syllabus? Did crazy switch out of the course upon seeing what the readings were to be? No? Tough shit, stupid.

More proof tha the class of '09 is a lost generation.

Once Cap and Trade is passed, professors will be held to a higher standard of academic accountability and no student will be left behind.

The course description says "Topics covered include...." That's open-ended. If they were covered on the first day, then there you go.

Also, if it was clear from the outset that this course wasn't living up to the student's expectations, the student should have dropped and added a different class.

At least 1/3 of my classes could be described as "god awful." News flash: the school doesn't care if you learn anything. These professors have almost no accountability, and the educational system is not designed to be "consumer friendly." I find its better to keep your feelings of contempt for crappy profs to yourself, keep your head down, and pledge to never contribute to the school following graduation.

Although this 3L might have dealt with this issue in a questionable manner, his sentiment is spot on. Some of these professors are just totally horrendous. They bring down the reputation of the legal profession and even their peer professors that are committed to scholarship and to their students. There are some professors at every school that really need to go and it is up to the deans at every school to be more discriminate in keeping professors around that are truly dead weight to the university.

A loon and moron are apt descriptions. As Dean Wormer would've said - Zero point two... Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. No grade point average. All courses incomplete. .. ZERO POINT ZERO.

Put a sock in it, boy, or else you'll be outta here like shit through a goose.

I wonder if she raised these issues with the prof prior to the email.

If she did, way to go out with a bang. If not, well . . .

Based on this person's understanding of contract law, she could probably make a killing suing dry cleaners who lose pants...

I understand that some of them have signs that say "satisfaction guaranteed," but they're not willing to put $50M where their mouth is when they lose a pair of pants.

Man some of you folks are really uneducated. Promisory estoppel is not a theory that works for any "almost" contract. It is a theory that puts a person back in the place they were before they did something in reliance on what they thought would become a contract. Example: You tell me that if I show up tomorrow morning at 10am prepared to paint my house lime green and proceed to paint my house, you will give me $10,000. I then go out and buy lots of lime green paint and some brushes. But before 10am tomorrow, you call me and rescind your offer. Before I can return the paint, the store goes out of business, and no one else wants their house painted lime green. I can recover the cost of the paint and brushes from you on the theory of promissory estoppel. The girl who took this class did nothing more than take a class. There were no guarantees that a class would conform 100% to a lesson plan. Even if there were, this would be a (very poor) claim for breach of contract; there is no recovery on promissory estoppel theory that makes sense here. Go take Contracts for chrissakes.

Based on this person's understanding of contract law, she could probably make a killing suing dry cleaners who lose pants...

I understand that some of them have signs that say "satisfaction guaranteed," but they're not willing to put $50M where their mouth is when they lose a pair of pants.

I thought this was a common right of passage with law school students. Like poorly disciplined dogs, they turn on their masters in 3L year, challenging deans and profs over non-sense like this.

2- What?

A loon and moron are apt descriptions. As Dean Wormer would've said - Zero point two... Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. No grade point average. All courses incomplete. .. ZERO POINT ZERO.

Put a sock in it, boy, or else you'll be outta here like shit through a goose.

If you look in the mirror and say "Elie Mystal" 3x, he appears out of no where and eats you alive.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Thanks 28, at least one person gets it.

-38

I'm a 20-year business lawyer - not the Wall Street kind with Fortune 100 clients, but a Main Street lawyer in a mid-size city where I advise small businesses and real estate investors. My view about lawyers knowing the basics of accounting is the opposite of 17, 20, and 25: accounting is the language of business, and lawyers who advise businesses on their transactions give better advice if they have some understanding of how the businesses account for the transactions.

wtf is a 'Loyola'?

I'm with 8. If the prof only covered the basics for 2 classes what did he cover for the rest of the semester? I doubt it was just him bitching about CEO compensation for the entire time. Which by the way is probably within the scope of an accounting for lawyers class. I'm a 3L and just finally got around to taking Tax. We spend 2 class periods (4 hrs) going over the proposed 90% AIG tax. Even though I strongly disagreed with the prof's stance on the issue when something happens that is relevant to a class topic it is ok for the prof to throw it in and spend some time on it even it isn't on the syllabus.

28, 9 here. I disagree. I think the course description is clearly a valid promise. As long as the student can prove that he or she relied on that promise, to his or her detriment, the elements for promissory estoppel are there. And damages are clear, given the tuition costs.

I know I'm thinking "outside of the box" - given that there is no written contract - but I guess that's what will separate me from other attorneys when I start practicing. You need to consider all possible causes of action when analyzing a claim, and should not just give up because there is no written contract.

The Internet is a kind of hell!

-Dean Sargent

GIVE HER FORTY HOURS OF HER LIFE BACK, 38!!!

I'm in that class. It was a guy, not a girl. That's his second email to a dean this semester. I believe He actually has a job.

i think he's just pissed that our professor doesn't care that he isn't teaching us what he is supposed to, nor does he think its a bad thing that he is going outside the course description.

However, the discussion of the bailout has been extremely well discussed based on the professor's background of working for the SEC and FDIC. It's not the class I signed up for, but I have learned a lot.

There have been mixed reactions to the email. Quite a few people think he went a bit farther than necessary.

I'm in that class. It was a guy, not a girl. That's his second email to a dean this semester. I believe He actually has a job.

i think he's just pissed that our professor doesn't care that he isn't teaching us what he is supposed to, nor does he think its a bad thing that he is going outside the course description.

However, the discussion of the bailout has been extremely well discussed based on the professor's background of working for the SEC and FDIC. It's not the class I signed up for, but I have learned a lot.

There have been mixed reactions to the email. Quite a few people think he went a bit farther than necessary.

The student's absolutely right. She's paying to be taught a particular course described by the school. If they need to find someone else who will actually be able to teach what they're advertising, then do that. Or better yet, just refund the $ for that course.

This is just another angry NERD!

The last time I was this angry, someone put ben-gay on my jockstrap before football practice.

NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS NERDS

2: Two shoes?

Loyola is where Northwestern guys go to buy sex.

N. Wacker Stud

You only want your money back for one class? You should have asked for a refund for the entire three years of law school! You've been "completely defrauded" for your entire degree. Your TTT school was clearly lying when its website promised you "excellence in legal education." The only thing any school named Loyola is excellent at is making sure you're unemployable when you graduate. I hope you have fun starting up your traffic court practice.

I am a student in this class and it was a male student, not a female, who sent the email to Dean Yellen.

A loon and moron are apt descriptions. As Dean Wormer would've said - Zero point two... Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. No grade point average. All courses incomplete. .. ZERO POINT ZERO.

Put a sock in it, boy, or else you'll be outta here like shit through a goose.

wow, looks like the promissory estoppel troll won this thread. the number of biters here must be a record.

firstly, it was a guy who wrote it, and he's a little bitch. If he showed up for class once in a while, he might know that while the class is not great, his claims are totally off base.

what a little bitch. i take exception to his threats. he's so stupid that that he doesn't realize that his threatened actions wouldn't hurt the school as much as his fellow students.

When is it ok to pound your secretary in the ass?

Roughly "I do not understand the current financial crisis and should not be held accountable for this material."

And "I know enough about the financial crisis to determine that a professor led-symposium on it was a disaster."

Smooth.

Here's one: What is the difference between a biglaw associate and a junior high school teacher?

Roughly "I do not understand the current financial crisis and should not be held accountable for this material."

And "I know enough about the financial crisis to determine that a professor led-symposium on it was a disaster."

Smooth.

I thought so too #5. I was mildly disappointed.

Who cares whether the course met the description? What matters is whether the final exam reflects what was taught. If the tard went to class and paid attention and the final reflects what was taught then all is fair. What a fucking whiner.

If her description is correct--the prof spent more time bemoaning the bailouts than actually giving nuts-and-bolts accounting instruction--then I'm on her side. Her whole blackmailing bit sucks but I can understand her frustration. Nothing worse than blowhard professors so coccooned in tenure they start rambling on about tangential topics.

FRED PAWOLAKSKI! "Ogar you asshole."

Classica reference - well done sir.

38 -- I think you need to go back and read Section 90 of the Restatement of Contracts. That pretty much proves that students like the one on this post might very well have a good reliance -- ie promissory estoppel -- claim here.

45, This is 20.

I agree with you. I was trying to say that one would be better served learning account in a business school, either as an undergrad or in law school by having an accounting class a the B-school applied to the JD. For schools that don't have the later option, those schools should change that policy for the reasons you stated. I wouldn't trust a law professor to teach a class like accounting without it turning into a social policy fest.

While this student is handling this in a wholly inappropriate way and is acting like a baby, her general criticisms of the problems with some law profs should resonate with most people who went to law school.

I found my accounting class somewhat useful and was satisfied by taking it.

I'm in this class too. The prof is amazing, and discussing things that are actually relevant to our lives. Go to office hours and he can explain the exam to you, it is going to be a piece of cake, quit bitching. And this student is a guy, not a girl, This student is also a douche. Total gunner who is just pissed off because there is nothing to gun since the prof is just lecturing. This student loves to show off and can't be properly prepared to ask his rediculous and rambling questions when he doesn't know exactly where the prof is going. The class itself is interesting and I have learned a lot.

these comments are awful. awful.

28/38: 9 here again. I keep wondering whether you are referring to some subtle point in Illinois law I am missing. However:

To prove promissory estoppel, four elements have to be met: 1) An unambiguous promise must be made to the plaintiff; 2) Plaintiff relied on the promise; 3) Plaintiff’s reliance was foreseeable by the defendants; and 4) Plaintiff actually relied on the promise to its detriment. Quake Construction, Inc. v. American Airlines, Inc., 141 Ill. 2d 281, 565 N.E.2d 990, 152 Ill. Dec. 308 (1990).

At the very least, the Loyola student can state a claim and get past Rule 12(b)(6) (or the Illinois equivalent) (which simply requires that a plaintiff be able to eventually prove facts upon which he or she can obtain relief). Granted, the school might be able to argue that the promise was suitably ambiguous. Clearly, testimony from students in the class will be highly relevant to resolving that dispute - but that's what trials are for.

Check. Point. Mate. God I can’t wait to be a litigator.

Good for her!

How long will we all continue to chug along in this process while not addressing the obvious? As the system is currently being run, law professors are completely useless. Professors don't teach. They hand out assignments, ask you to come to class while they essentially re-read the assignment to you. Professors are there for scholarship and that's it.

It is an absolute shame that law students spend three years at a law school and leave with a six figure debt and absolutely no idea how to be a lawyer.

Boy if she is pissed off now, wait until she starts studying for the Bar exam and realize that law school taught her nothing.

45, This is 20.

I agree with you. I was trying to say that one would be better served learning account in a business school, either as an undergrad or in law school by having an accounting class at the B-school applied to the JD. For schools that don't have the later option, those schools should change that policy for the reasons you stated. I wouldn't trust a law professor to teach a class like accounting without it turning into a social policy fest.

While this student is handling this in a wholly inappropriate way and is acting like a baby, her general criticisms of the problems with some law profs should resonate with most people who went to law school.

I found my accounting class somewhat useful and was satisfied by taking it.

I find this student rather shallow and pedantic.

big deal. the kid had a caffeine crash (or was drunk) and fired off an unintelligible rant. he or she will feel better after a nap. the angry valedictorian, on the other hand, was much more punchable because that's the way he probably is all the time.

and most of you should be ashamed for having no clue about promissory estoppel.
.

7, 9, 22, 48: you are clearly a stupid law student. Promissory estoppel is not some magical silver bullet claim. You will be surprised once you get out in the real world and practice for a week before losing your job how narrow a principle it is. It does not apply to law school classes, I promise you. PLEASE, everyone who keeps talking about promissory estoppel every time you want a refund, review your crappy Contracts outline and stop outing yourself as an idiot.

74 --

Don't forget about Section 90 of the Restatement. That's even more proof.

5-

That is exactly what I thought from the headline.

I know this student, and, first of all, its a "he" not a "she" as this article claims.... get it right ATL.

Second, this guy is a total boob. An email to the dean is the last way to get what you want. If he didn't like the way the class was going, he had an ENTIRE MONTH to pull out at the start of the semester with nothing more than a W on his transcript.

Third, this class is not meant to be as challenging as a bar course--its an elective available to 1Ls for God's sake. So the fact that this 3L is in it and complaining about it to the dean speaks volumes about his own commitment to his legal education--that he'd rather bitch and moan than put in the work.

Finally, how dare he blackmail the administration... if he has a problem, take it up with the professor in a lawyerly fashion--go to office hours, state your claims, get a response, have it out if you must, and move along. Its a 2 credit hour course... get over it and get over yourself.

Everyone is stressed... but that is just part of the law school game.

78. hmmm yes, shallow and pedantic.

64: A false sense of entilement?

I know this student, and, first of all, its a "he" not a "she" as this article claims.... get it right ATL.

Second, this guy is a total boob. An email to the dean is the last way to get what you want. If he didn't like the way the class was going, he had an ENTIRE MONTH to pull out at the start of the semester with nothing more than a W on his transcript.

Third, this class is not meant to be as challenging as a bar course--its an elective available to 1Ls for God's sake. So the fact that this 3L is in it and complaining about it to the dean speaks volumes about his own commitment to his legal education--that he'd rather bitch and moan than put in the work.

Finally, how dare he blackmail the administration... if he has a problem, take it up with the professor in a lawyerly fashion--go to office hours, state your claims, get a response, have it out if you must, and move along. Its a 2 credit hour course... get over it and get over yourself.

Everyone is stressed... but that is just part of the law school game.

It is truly hilarious how at least one person falls for the Promissory Estoppel troll in every post.

Ignore the haters and keep up the good work - the know-it-all assholes are always good for a laugh.

As a loyola alum, I can say from experience that some classes taught me absolutely nothing. But don't most classes in law school? One in particular was a certain old fogey professor's Con Law class, which was basically a soapbox for whatever the prof wanted to discuss that day, legal or not. Our exams consisted of memorizing con law documents and doing a "matching" game... But who complains about this? It was internet hour, and it was actually refreshing to just talk about nothing... people complain too often

70:

9 here again. Great point. I didn't rely on the Restatement, because I don't think most courts accept it as binding, but the point is the same under either the Restatement or the Illinois case law I cite in Post 74.

Politics aside, this is good news for egg lovers.

Next time try studying, jackass. I'm here on full scholarship and I don't feel entitled to learn from professors.

- Loyola 2L Stud with petite Thai girlfriend

Uh, why didn't the idiot stop attending once it became clear the prof wasn't going to waste time teaching students to count on their fingers....and transfer to a course he felt was more meaningful or apply for a full/partial refund?

What a tard. He deserves that big F on his transcript.

I find associates who pound secretaries in the ass to be shallow and pedantic.

80:

Why don't you try responding to the clear precedent I cite, rather than rambling on about "magic bullets" and the like. I'll give it to you again: Quake Construction, Inc. v. American Airlines, Inc., 141 Ill. 2d 281, 565 N.E.2d 990, 152 Ill. Dec. 308 (1990).

I wonder if some people on here are from the Loyola administration, and are trying to dissuade these students from pursuing a clearly valid claim. Remember, you are NOT off the hook for promises just because there is no written contract.

AHHHA AHAHA HA AHAHA HHA HA

AHA HAH AH AHA HA HAHA HA

AHA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA

AH AH AH AHAHHA HA HAHA

DUMB B*TCH PAID $170,000 FOR A WORTHLESS DEGREE AND SHE'S FREAKING OUT. PWNED!

Is this blog read exclusively by laid off Latham associates who studied promissory estoppel at UPenn State?

The student apparently could also use a course on when and when not to use commas.

70 and 89, you are total idiots who have no concept of the law at all, nor an understanding of the Restatement of Contracts (which, by the way, is not legally binding authority anyway). 38 is correct, and gave a correct example of promissory estoppel. 1-the girl had no promise that the course would be taught 100% per the guidelines (or at all, for that matter) and 2, even if she did, that would be BREACH OF CONTRACT, not reliance on a promise thats not quite a contract.

96:

There's Penn State, and there's Penn. There is no UPenn State.

74: you are a stupid dumbass.

reminiscent of kanye west's detailed explanation of why he's not gay for liking fish sticks.

Is this school accredited by the school accreditation council?

95: It's shallow and pedantic comments like yours that give ATL a bad name.

When I was at the University of Michigan law school, I took a class on administrative law taught by a woman who has absolutely no business teaching. I was strongly encouraged by people who had taken the class before to take the class Pass/Fail on the ground that this prof was an erratic grader. When I got the exam, I was glad I had taken the P/F option, because the test was not on general principles of administrative law, but rather on the finer points of HIPAA, and how it could be improved (The professor wanted to comment on new HIPAA regs and was looking for ideas). The class was not on HIPAA, we didn't study HIPAA, but our admin law grade would be based on whether the prof liked our ideas for improving HIPAA. At least I passed, but now I have to explain my decision to choose the P/F option if I ever want a job that has anything to do with admin law. You would think a Top 10 law school would do better. What were we paying for?

93, I take offense to that. When I am pounding my secretary it is anything but shallow.

I bought my 3500 sq ft wife a merkin for our anniversary.

I move that 95 be estopped with prejudice.

I paid a Loyola chick once to smack my ass and nail me with a strap on.

U Michigan 2L

103 - given that about 5 or 6 schools have no grades at all now I don't think you should ever have to justify taking something p/f.

94 - 80 is right. Your ideas about law from reading a few cases and hornbooks don't reflect the reality of the real world. Moreover, your "clear precedent" is not on point here.

103, if you knew that the class was going to be so bad that you needed to take it P/F, why did you even take it at all?

TTT

108 you're a moron. If your school uses A-F and you elect to go P/F for a specific course you need to explain that. If you have a good reason thats fine, but the interviewer is going to want to know. Too often the real reason is that it was last semester 3L year and the student wanted to slack off so they went P/F so that they could blow off the work.

ALL of you promissory estoppel freaks. Read 38, which gives a perfectly correct example of promissory estoppel. This post doesnt even come close. 9 and 80 and all the rest are idiots. Why dont you take contracts again before you try citing random cases and the Restatement of Contracts??

A couple of years ago at Boalt our Corp Tax guy was on leave and they brought in a practitioner to teach the class. She was incredibly bad, had no idea how to teach, and we learned absolutely nothing in that course. A couple of students complained to the dean of students that there was no way we could be tested on the finer points of the tax consequences of spinoffs when we had learned nothing. Everyone got the option of either not taking the final and getting a Pass or taking the final for a grade, knowing that a larger percentage of H and HH grades would be handed out. I thought that was a fair resolution and a good number of students did in fact choose to take the final. We did not send out stupid and embarrasing blast emails like this guy or gal, though.

@107 - Loyola chicks will do that? How much did you pay?

I'm really impressed with http://www.jdjournal.com. They quickly provide short and informative postings about layoffs and law firm news. You don't have to scroll through several postings of irrelevant crap and commerical advertising to get updates.

My bad, 80 is right (not an idiot), I meant to say 70 is an idiot. -113

74, you're missing the point -- this students damages are, at best, hypothetical, speculative and remote. And that doesn't survive 12b6.

By relying on the school's "promise" in the course description (assuming it's a promise) the student simply had forgone the option of taking the next best course, or taking no course at all. So if he would have taken, say, Antitrust or something, he has to prove at trial how much better off he'd be monetarily (and there's the kicker) had he taken that class instead. Or maybe he can try and prove how much his market value would have increased had he spent the time exercising. You get the point -- speculative and imprecise at best.

This tuition talk is nonsense, because nobody pays by the course. Had he taken a different course, or not taken any course at all, his tuition wouldn't have been any lower.

God I can't wait for you to be a litigator.

"...I will send an open letter the the entire Chicago legal community..."
I know you are reading these comments right now. Take my advice: GET OVER YOURSELF.

And consider proofreading.

113, I would like you to pay me for the time I wasted reading your post on the basis of promissory estoppel. I think that your posting here constitutes a promise that your post would be worth reading. See Frigaliment Importing Co., Ltd. v. BNS International Sales Corp., 190 F. Supp. 116.

74, you're missing the point -- this students damages are, at best, hypothetical, speculative and remote. And that doesn't survive 12b6.

By relying on the school's "promise" in the course description (assuming it's a promise) the student simply had forgone the option of taking the next best course, or taking no course at all. So if he would have taken, say, Antitrust or something, he has to prove at trial how much better off he'd be monetarily (and there's the kicker) had he taken that class instead. Or maybe he can try and prove how much his market value would have increased had he spent the time exercising. You get the point -- speculative and imprecise at best.

This tuition talk is nonsense, because nobody pays by the course. Had he taken a different course, or not taken any course at all, his tuition wouldn't have been any lower.

God I can't wait for you to be a litigator.

113:

Only one person here has actually cited case law. Hint: it isn't the anti-promissory estoppel crowd.

I hope I run into all of you in court. If these posts are representative of the legal arguments I will encounter, being a lawyer is going to be much easier than I suspected.

110: Because admin law is something that might come in handy.

-not 103

I have to go to Gainesville, FL next week to take care of some "business". Restaurant recommendations? No Indian or BBQ. Serious responses only. Thanks.

1Ls can be forgiven for this, but by the time you're a 3L, you should be able to ask around before taking a class to find out what the professor's like and whether it's worth taking.

By the time I was a 3L, I knew about thegood and the bad classes and was able to avoid the bad ones. If all you do before signing up for a class is to read the description in the course catalog, you can't really say that you "chose [your] classes very carefully this semester." Considering the money the student claims the class cost, I wonder if s/he has ever bought a used car, sight unseen, based on a description in a classified ad.

Really, is this what happens when you attend some TTT private school? Crappy education, idiotic students and $170k in debt to show for it. Crap like this does not happen at the (much cheaper) first tier state schools like Berkeley, U Texas and Penn.

Peeps, the "sue for promissory estoppel" comments are phony, flames, whatever you wanna call them. It's a common trope on this site, like the "Penn State Philly" comments, deployed to lure in high strung m*therf*ckers like the commenters who reply with utter amazement and disgust.

Stop feedings these knuckleheads, you knuckleheads (that goes for all of you).

120, your post ipsa locquitor. IDIOT.

LOL at these promissory estoppel flames. They have to be flames. Yes, this will make you "different from other practicing attorneys." Go take your promissory estoppel claims to court on behalf of this student. I'm sure they will be well received. I mean seriously? Do you know anything about the law? Stop coming on here with this ridiculous bullshit every time something turns out differently than someone expected it to.

Here are my demands:

I will not answer any question on the final unless the answer can be found in my dream journal. If a question is asked outside of these clear parameters, then I will drop a double-decker in the nearest loyola restroom. If said double-decker is not shown high enough appreciation by my peers, I will send a letter to every lawyer in the entire universe outlining how big of a douche i am.

Just jump through the hoop, you deluded fool. Graduate like the rest of us and press on with your life. Law school ain't supposed to teach you nothing; it's just a scheme to perpetuate elitism. Sucka.

Sincerely,

If the Truth hurts, take a Vicotin.

Quickly, someone draft a summary brief for everyone at ATL on the likelihood of success in court against this law school under the theory of promissory estoppel. It smells like a winner!

118/121:

There's something called "expert testimony." Maybe you've heard of it. If for some reason the court won't accept the tuition argument, find an expert to testify that - yes, shockingly - practical law school courses like the one promised have an actual financial benefit.

Think creatively. That's what great lawyers do.

122, case law isnt the point. A basic understanding of Contract law hasnt been discussed in case law in a couple hundred years because its BASIC. god, you are an idiot. plus, you must have a lot of time on your hands if you cite case law on ATL, while I need to get back to some billable hours. thanks. -113

That letter is awesome. The professor sounds like an utter douche, and it's fun to see him called out.

Wow, 80, 98, and who ever else is that stupid... It's a joke. And you've fallen for it.

"...I will send an open letter the the entire Chicago legal community..."
I know you are reading these comments right now. Take my advice: GET OVER YOURSELF.

And consider proofreading.

are you idiots REALLY getting into an argument here about promissory estoppel?

read this carefully: it's a joke. that guy says the same thing in every thread. it's NEVER promissory estoppel!!

Reign - rein?

Seriously, though. It is clear here that the school and professor failed to deliver the goods. Doesn't the student have a remedy under UCC 2-713?

124: If you like italian, try Lusardo's or Boccio. Both are reasonably priced and have good service. If it is a client dinner, Lusardo's is probably a better choice b/c its decor is a little bit nicer. Great wine lists at both places too.

I feel like im sitting on an atomic bomb thats about to explode!!!!

oh hai Mark

- loyola 3L

Don't worry guys, 3L recruiting will pick up (especially for all you promissory estoppel experts) once Barack Obama raises taxes on law firm partners. You see, when partners find their take-home paycheck reduced, they spend more money on associate salaries. It all makes sense.

Yes We Can!

Ummm good luck working at a law firm in the future. What will this student do? Blackmail the partners if they're not given the type of work they requested?

I'm not in the accounting class referred to, but that e-mail was disseminated (unofficially) to the entire law school very quickly. I'm sorry to report, but according to a student in the class, there were no subsequent fireworks.

Move along folks, nothing to see here... just another crazy 3L

I am in this class, and yes, it is that bad. I think that this student (who is a man by the way... not a woman as the pronouns in this article suggest) went a little overboard, but the anger he expressed is felt by most of the class.

132, you're going to try to survive a motion to dismiss or SJ on the notion that an expert witness will be able to competently testify that had this kid taken a different course he would have received $X in the marketplace? That's just retarded. I don't know one single lawyer who could say that X class has brought them Y dollars, and that's in retrospect. It can't be something general and stupid like "courses have a financial benefit." It has to be concrete, discernable damages. (Putting aside the fact that there are no such "experts" and there is no such scientific or experiential competence to survive Daubert or whatever it is in Illinois. And further putting aside the fact that a $2000/hour expert would cost way more than any expected claim.)

I must admit, I'd never been flamed until you came along, so kudos.

140: You just made the promissory estoppel clowns look like Mensa members. Good job.

128, I was trying to make a point by taking the PE aregument to an absurd degree, and by citing the "chicken" case. I'm sad that you didn't get the joke.

-120

I am in this class, and yes, it is that bad. I think that this student (who is a man by the way... not a woman as the pronouns in this article suggest) went a little overboard, but the anger he expressed is felt by most of the class.

146, in fairness, no person should put in as much time flaming people as I just did. It's just that this memo I'm working on today is so soul-crushingly boring, that it actually seemed like a fun idea to pretend to be the obnoxious law students I always laughed at.

I actually took the time to Google "Illinois promissory estoppel" and I found that case. God, what has my life become when this is now considered fun.

(Funny thing is, if you Google that, it turns up an article about how courts in Illinois are holding that there is no claim for promissory estoppel.)

I'm not in the accounting class referred to, but that e-mail was disseminated (unofficially) to the entire law school very quickly. I'm sorry to report, but according to a student in the class, there were no subsequent fireworks.

Move along folks, nothing to see here... just another crazy 3L

LOL at these promissory estoppel flames. They have to be flames. Yes, this will make you "different from other practicing attorneys." Go take your promissory estoppel claims to court on behalf of this student. I'm sure they will be well received. I mean seriously? Do you know anything about the law? Stop coming on here with this ridiculous bullshit every time something turns out differently than someone expected it to.

Loyola 2L here (no, not that one...)
I'm NOT in that class, but it is pretty f'in bad here. The administration are a bunch of good for nothings that just sit around collecting paychecks as our USN rank crashes through the floor. Our Career Services department couldn't get a hooker a job in a Navy base...they'd tell him/her to 'use the website,' which seems to be their approach to everything. Use the website is the extent of their helpfulness.

Institutional rot is setting in-- its time for the administration and CSO to join Roxana in the breadline (sorry Roxie) before we end up being John Marshall at Water Tower Place.

OK. Someone needs to say this, so I might as well.

Grow. The Fuck. Up. Life is tough, 3Ls. Get used to it.

John Marshall Law School > Loyola Chicago Law School

++++++++++++++
TO ALL YOU LOYALA HATERS I'LL HAVE YOU THAT MY CLASSMATES ARE SOME OF THE MOST INTELLEIGANT PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET. IT IS NOT A TTT! IT MAY NOT BE A BIG NAME SCHOOL LIKE FORDAHM, BUT IT STILL PUTS OUT THE SAME QUALITY OF ATTORNEYS WHO CAN GET THE KIND OF VERDICTS ARE CLIENTS DESERVE!

++++++++++++++

This was a guy not a girl. Specifically, a guy who took something like 7 years and 5 colleges to get a B.A., failing out of most of them. If you'd spent 3 years in class with him, you wouldn't be the least bit surprised about his email rant. Many students in his Accounting for Lawyers class say it's a good class, and many more enjoy classes with this prof. Just setting the record straight with a little more info.

-Loyola 3L

This was a middle-aged guy, not a girl. And he failed out of something like 5 colleges in 7 years before receiving his B.A. Many of my classmates liked this prof, and this class. Just f.y.i.

-Loyola 3L

156, awesome. Now lets wait and see how many people think that a post in all caps with that many typos is really serious.

I can't believe no one has created a schtick called YOUNG GUNNER and posted something like "What does this have to do with me being passed over as USF graduation speaker?"

This was a middle-aged guy, not a girl. And he failed out of something like 5 colleges in 7 years before receiving his B.A. Many of my classmates liked this prof, and this class. Just f.y.i.

-Loyola 3L

97 - True, however, comma usage is subjective, and in some cases dependent on the continent one is from, and, even further, what part of the continent, whereas some people may have used a semi-colon in place of the last comma, others use a comma, and, there is no set rule any more, to wit, look at Section 90 on the Restatement of Grammar.

I'm also in this class. I got there early expecting a throw-down. But nothing happened. Later, I saw the student, a guy by the way, walk with the Prof to the elevators after class. And it looked like they were having a friendly conversation.

Although he went completely overboard, he was right about the class. Many of our classmates felt the same way all semester.

Estoppel Troll FTW

I just scrolled through ALL of the damn comments because I wanted to find the answers to everyone's funny jokes. But, there are no answers :( You guys are mean :( :(

PLEASE, someone tell me:

1. What's the difference between Partner Emeritus and an Iraqi journalist?

2. When is it ok to pound your secretary in the ass?

and

3. What's the difference between a biglaw associate and a junior high school teacher?

I'D REALLY LIKE TO KNOW! THX :)

This was a middle-aged guy, not a girl. And he failed out of something like 5 colleges in 7 years before receiving his B.A. Many of my classmates liked this prof, and this class. Just f.y.i.

-Loyola 3L

Me loves me this post!

Am I a troll or a flame? They all here, and I thinks some of boths.

The ship be sinking...

I never suspected Kash was an obnoxious twit., but this post just confirmed it.

So Loyola Law accepts students who have failed out of college 5 times? Must be a brilliant bunch over there!

The professor sent out an email letting us know that he posted a class outline on TWEN. You know.. just so we know what we were supposed to learn this semester. That is the only response I have heard from the administration regarding this madness.

A Loyola Chicago Law Student does not understand how to use apostrophes (re "CEO's").

Better throw them a bone and give them 3,000$ - it'll pad the unemployment insurance.

38,80,152=humorless douches

Well put 26.

I would like some answers to our questions. Mainly, when is it kosher to pound your secretary in the ass?

165 - I agree. I thought this website was supposed to provide us with answers, not just questions.

This guy's biggest mistake was enrolling in Loyola Law School. Anything else he did wrong is overshadowed by that colossal error.

I'm a 4L and MOST of my classes have been a total waste of time. Dumbass, learn that you're paying for a degree that lets you sit for the bar exam. The real learning happens after that.

Now I know my law school was not alone. I had a similar problem with an Accounting for Lawyers class at Emory. Sounded great on paper, but the class was taught by an adjunct who did not know how to teach the basics. After a painful semester, we were allowed to drop the class the day before the final without any grade impact, though there was no refund of tuition. Perhaps this 3L has the right idea.

I just have one question.

Why has nobody thought of promissory estoppel?

Now I know my law school was not alone. I had a similar problem with an Accounting for Lawyers class at Emory. Sounded great on paper, but the class was taught by an adjunct who did not know how to teach the basics. After a painful semester, we were allowed to drop the class the day before the final without any grade impact, though there was no refund of tuition. Perhaps this 3L has the right idea.

Loyola tanked in rankings too. below all other chicago schools except john marshall now i think.

John Marshall Law School > Loyola Law School.

Seriously.

As to other folks in the class, you just lucked out. It's a tough world out there. If someone is telling you in advance that they are turning in a blank exam, good for all of you. I hope this student has no intention of practicing law. If he/she thinks that lawyers don't need to think on their feet and no hearing/meeting discusses any topic not predetermined, he/she is in for a big shock.

Quickbooks handles all this shit for you anyway.

I'm a 3L at Loyola Chicago. I was not in this class, but I did take Business Organizations with the same professor this past fall semester. He talked a lot about all of this stuff, but I found it far more interesting than the actual course material. For what it's worth I felt like he covered the course material in BizOrg perfectly clearly and competently. This sounds like a case of someone being a big whiny baby. I can think of some other classes at Loyola I have taken far more deserving of a refund than this one *cough evening Con Law cough*. But I just sucked it up, picked up an Emmanuel's and taught myself. The goal of law school is to get your JD and take the bar so you can practice law. How much of what is said in any one class do you really retain anyway.

Whoever wrote this letter is a hysterical whiner.

I don't understand this phrase, "democratic fairness" which appears in the list of topics to be discussed in the panel discussion in accounting class. Perhaps it is one of the generally accepted accounting principles? I am trying to think of how it might be defined by contrast to, say, "undemocratic fairness", or "democratic unfairness". Is this anything other than putting two valued things together, like "Mom" and "apple pie" to get "Mom's apple pie"?

In defense of the Loyola Class of 2009, the majority of students in the full time program were top students at major midwestern universities and colleges like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Michigan, Wash U, Illinois, Wisconsin. Our LSAT scores were generally in the mid 160 range. Many of these students are also on large scholarships and wanted the benefits of attending law school in a major American legal market. Interestingly, the worst Loyola Professors are generally the graduates of such prestigious law schools as Cornell, Yale, Northwestern. Some are shockingly lazy and uninspired - rarely published and continue to rest on the laurels of their prestige law degree. Now about this specific course, most students know that Accounting for Lawyers is a class that accounting majors take to get an easy A, even though the syllabus explicitly state the course is designed for non-accounting majors. Loyola Class of 2009, keep your heads up. We all know what an exceptionally bright and talented bunch of students Loyola Law School fields because of its Chicago location. We are and will continue to be far superior to the educational experience we had at Loyola. The administration needs a major shakeup.

For god's sake, drop the promissory estoppel argument, please. I've been practicing 27 years and it simply does not succeed in the real world.

I'm at Loyola Chicago and I graduated from Indiana Wesleyan with a 2.6. I got a 141 on my LSAT

I am a law professor at an east coast university. I am working up a comment for publication on the revival of promissory estoppel as a means for recouping losses associated with expectations in today's modern business environment. I have tracked this discussion, and discussions on other threads, with great interest. It is refreshing to discover that many young legal minds (both new associates and law students) have not forgotten what they learned in their contracts courses. I am hoping that some of you involved in the debate might volunteer to critique my law review article as it develops.

Also, for those of you dismissing the application of promissory estoppel out of hand, take it from a contracts professor, your arguments need bolstering. Specifically, if you are going to reject promissory estoppel as a means of recovery in this situation and situations like these, you should cite to relevant precedent. I would also encourage you to read the Comments to the Restatement.

187 = epic pwnage. LUC ain't bad...it's just run by shit-heads.

Whoa, 188 is flaming the flame!!

If your going the promissory estoppel route at lease make a citation to section 90.

189... You should be proud of yourself. I'm sure you received a great financial aid package. And as I said... "the majority" of students have strong academic backgrounds. It's unfortunate that the intelligent among us have to deal with the dimwits, which is a major drawback to Loyola. I had one guy in my class that was born in America and literally couldn't speak English. They're usually part time or fit into a special demographic.

Loyola Chicago is definately more "prestigious" than Chicago Kent/ Depaul/JMLS... any other chicago school other than the big 2. Plus, it's pre-requisite that all the enrolled dudes have big dicks.

Estoppel,

Estoppel estoppel estoppel estoppel. Estoppel estoppel. Estoppel estoppel estoppel estoppel estoppel; estoppel estoppel.

Estoppel, estoppel estoppel. Estoppel estoppel estoppel.

--Estoppel

I agree with 196.

LUC is still tied with Depaul and above John Marshall. Kent tanked in the rankings this year too.

the part time program is destroying LUC. they let crap in for the $$$ and dont care how it affects the rankings. I'm a 3L and we have fallen every year and our incoming class LSAT avg and GPA were much higher than the average appears to be now.

Our dean doesnt stay at school past 4, ever. Most of the other teachers and admins just rest on the fact that they are in Chicago and people will come.

However, no way that LSAT of 141 got in.

All schools have crap wrong with them, get used to it and move on. Get your JD and get out and pass the BAR.

With all due respect 187, I doubt that top students at those "major Midwestern universities" would have been foolhardy enough to spend $180,000 for degree that doesn't even carry any weight in Chicago.

200!

With all due respect 187, I doubt that top students at those "major Midwestern universities" would have been foolhardy enough to spend $180,000 for degree that doesn't even carry any weight in Chicago.

John Marshall School of Prestige > Loyola School of Whiners.

Really. It is.

I had a deserved rep for shooting my mouth off in the public forum in law school. Thank god this was before ATL blew up or my reputation would be toast. I have some free advice my dean gave me: if you're mad, write the letter, save it as a draft, and look at it the next day. If you still feel the same, send it. If your feelings have changed, rewrite or delete the email. It seems silly but this simple advice will do your dumb asses a lot of professional good.

Thurgood Marshall > Loyola

Every dude at Loyola has a giant schlong and can beat up anyone from any other Chicago law school. Which is all that really matters. I have Northwestern 2L's bent over in the stalls at Smartbar every Friday night. Male and female. Because I AM BISEXUAL

I would like to know who this student is. If they manage to pass the bar I want to make sure she/he does not do any work for me. Obviously they do not have a basisc business understanding to be dealing with even the simplest financial issues.

Good luck on that refund, just because you don't understand the basics doesn't entitle you to your money back.

With all due respect 199.. the stupidity of your statement speaks for itself. First, students on scholarship and financial aid do not graduate with anywhere near $180,000 in debt. Second, do you honestly think that it will be difficult for even a moderately successful attorney to pay off that amount over time. Third, Loyola Chicago alumni are working in every major firm in the city and run many of the small and midsize firms. The Illinois Secretary of State is a Loyola Law alum as well as a member of the Illinois Supreme Court.

Loyola tanked in rankings too. below all other chicago schools except john marshall now i think.

I would like to know who this student is. If they manage to pass the bar I want to make sure she/he does not do any work for me. Obviously they do not have a basisc business understanding to be dealing with even the simplest financial issues.

Good luck on that refund, just because you don't understand the basics doesn't entitle you to your money back.

I had a lousy Evidence prof, didn't learn anything, and bombed the test. I want my money back too.

There's a magical concept called "dropping a class", someone should have informed this student.

Why why why can't people figure out how to NOT hit "Post Comment" multiple times!

(now someone please copy and past this and post it several more times)

The simple fact is that John Marshall School of Lawyering Skills > Loyola School of Theoretical Nonsense.

Loyola students, like other "prestigious" Chicago law schools (i.e. University of Chicago and Northwestern), just don't get the hands on legal training that we do.

Id.

195 is right....packing 8.5 inches here, who wants some?

207: "The Illinois Secretary of State is a Loyola Law alum as well as a member of the Illinois Supreme Court."

The IL sec of st is also a member of the IL Supreme Court?

WOW!

* hires suicidal laid off Latham 1st year to cut my lawn*

*watches suicidal laid off Latham 1st year try to cut his wrists with a weed whacker*

*warns suicidal laid off Latham 1st year that if he breaks the weed whacker, he buys it*

214.... 8.5 inches.... you're joking right? Are you asian?

Why why why can't people figure out how to NOT hit "Post Comment" multiple times!

(now someone please copy and past this and post it several more times)

*uses weed whacker to kill self*

*you get no compensation because sallie mae already has a lien on my severance*

-suicidal laid off latham 1st year

195 is right....packing 8.5 inches here, who wants some?

*uses weed whacker to kill self*

*you get no compensation because sallie mae already has a lien on my severance*

-suicidal laid off latham 1st year

ugh this guy is balding, from cleveland, has at least a kid (and was the first ugly baby i've ever seen), is "VP of Intellectual Property" at his shitty 5 person company, was a wanna be gunner during 1L, and had a 5 year old facebook pict (before he hid his profile apparently?)

i echo what an above commenter said: LUC's poor rankings have come from the shitty cash-cow part time student statistics that US News decided to lump in with the full timers a year or so back (before then, we were easily above DePaul, within a couple spots of Kent).

We're not an awesome school, but God knows we (the full-time students) should be ranked higher. It was our stupid mistake to tie our collective fates to a dumbass administration and part-time student body, but whatever.

thigh bang

With all due respect 207, you seem to be the caliber of the average Loyola law student; the Illinois Secretary of State is Jesse White. Mr. White does not possess a law degree.

And I echo 215's comments regarding your poor grammatical skills...

222--I would say that insulting someone's baby probably (1) crosses the line, (2) shows what a douche you are, and (3) would make you less popular than this dude if people found out who you are.

This would never happen at John Marshall School of Students Who Are Nice To Babies (JMSSWANTB).

John Marshall > Loyola

I am a LUC 4L who's LSAT was higher than my friends who went to Chicago and Northwestern, but have a job where I make more than a 1st year associate. Most of the part-time students who have jobs just don't want to quit and go that much further into debt. The other ones who they let in for $$$ I would never hire to do a parking ticket much less something important. Re: this post. The Administration is horrible. The prof is a blowhard, but I loved baiting him in another class he taught. The letter writer is toast reputation wise. LUC has better looking girls than NU or U of C.

225

yea i suppose you gotta be nice to your own kind

I respectfully agree with 225. If Seinfeld has taught us anything (and it has), if you find a baby unattractive just call him "breath-taking" and move along.

74 is an idiot.

Assuming you're not trolling, there's no promissory estoppel claim because the contract is in place. Student paid law school money in exchange for a legal education pursuant to the terms of a written agreement. Allegedly, law school didn't deliver as promised. If there's any claim here (and I highly doubt it), it's for breach of contract, not promissory estoppel.

Amen, 212!!!

Amen, 212!!!

Amen, 212!!!

Amen, 212!!!

Amen, 212!!!

74 is an idiot.

Assuming you're not trolling, there's no promissory estoppel claim because the contract is in place. Student paid law school money in exchange for a legal education pursuant to the terms of a written agreement. Allegedly, law school didn't deliver as promised. If there's any claim here (and I highly doubt it), it's for breach of contract, not promissory estoppel.

74 is an idiot.

Assuming you're not trolling, there's no promissory estoppel claim because the contract is in place. Student paid law school money in exchange for a legal education pursuant to the terms of a written agreement. Allegedly, law school didn't deliver as promised. If there's any claim here (and I highly doubt it), it's for breach of contract, not promissory estoppel.

227

I don't understand.

I'm in the class. My first notes on the first day were "this class will not teach you to be an accountant." Yeah, prof's a bit of a blowhard, but so what. It's far better than other classes I've had. I transferred here from a school ranked in the 30s and I had far worse classes there as well.

This is just major douchery.

226 has a LSAT so high, he doesn't have to use "whose." Fucking part-timers... please keep your supposedly great jobs and don't venture into something half-heartedly causing a corresponding, almost parasitic, drop in reputation for the well-qualified full-timers.

Although LUC's chicks are cute, I'm not paying tens of thousands of dollars to look at loud, dumb chicks from MSU.

227,

There is no such thing as a jerk store.

I am actually in this class, and this guy is definitely a girl. Trust me, she sits right in front of me.

I definitely agree though that she has a right of action under sec. 90 of the Promissory Estoppel Act.

222 - Balding, old AND fat. He was in my 1L section so I know for a fact he's full-time. He is an a$$ in class and the letter is ridiculous. But I know he helped another of our classmates get a job. Also, ripping on someone's baby is just wrong and invites bad karma!

239 . . .Don't worry, I see lawyers like you're going to be like my gardeners and maids, just hired help. (Good ones are indispensable) I look at law school like going to one of those free home depot classes on gardening. My grades in college, GPA, and LSAT would not lower the ranking of the school and really not my fault you weren't smart enough to get into a tier one school or get a scholarship to LUC. But continue to be bitter my friend, that your best is only equal to my half-hearted attempts.

hey whats all this "yell-en" about?

244-classic

I'm a part-time 4L at LUC and my grades are comparable to most everyone I know in the full-time program. Mostly B's a few A's. Not like anyone can get a job, part-time or full-time anyway. We'll all be trading shifts waiting tables at Golden Nugget in a couple of months.

At least I still have the job I had when I started law school. It ain't much, but it'll keep the lights on and beer in my belly while I figure out how the fuck I am going to start practicing law.

241 - The person who sent this email to the Dean also sent a copy to everyone in the class. He signed it and sent it from his personal email address, so there should be no confusion about who sent this. If you didn't receive the email, you might want to double-check that you are actually registered for the class, as I'm fairly certain he got the email list from an official class list.

*cuts wrists using 216's weed whacker, he seeks reimbursement from my estate but gets nothing because sallie mae already has a lien on my severance*

-suicidal laid off latham first year

An actual practicing attorney here. I think it is hysterical that this guy "threatened" to send an "open letter" to the Chicago legal community about his law school professor. Ha! Priceless!

Does he think that actual practicing attorneys - - who are busy trying to keep their clients happy in a downturn market - - actually give a fuck about some stupid law student and his stupid law school class? What a whiner and a total loser! Here's a news flash for that kid: the world does not think you are even 1/4 as important as you like to think you are. No one cares that you don't like one of your classes. Seriously. We don't give a fuck. Really.

Once you practice for a few years, you'll realize that most of your tenured professors in law school (though definitely book smart) are "academics" who wouldn't know how to survive in the "real world" if it came up and bit them on the ass. So you will understand if none of us give a shit that you are not learning "real accounting" from your professor. You are not learning ANYTHING that will help you in the real world; you are learning what you need to pass the bar exam.

And resorting to blackmail to get your way? Why, that could get you disbarred in some states, son.....

My advice? Grow up.

150 says (Funny thing is, if you Google that, it turns up an article about how courts in Illinois are holding that there is no claim for promissory estoppel.)

Hey 150, your google-fu is behind the times.

As of 4/2/9, S. Ct. of Ill. recognizes a cause of action for promissory estoppel (Newton Tractor v. Kubota Tractor).

249 - Absolutely right, no one cares. Yet here we are reading about it and taking the time away from our clients to right about it! OK, back to billables!

251 Corected oops.. stupid automatic spellcheck...

249 - Absolutely right, no one cares. Yet here we are reading about it and taking the time away from our clients to write about it! OK, back to billables!

If you want to be an "academic," go to the Jesuit institution of Loyola Chicago Law School.

If you want to truly practice law--live day-to-day within the bowels of the city's bustling center of justice, the Daley Centre--go to Chicago's only independent law school, The John Marshall School of Law.

John Marshall > Loyola

This guy should thank baby jesus that ATL has a policy

against revealing law student's names.

Group 1: Uchicago, NU
Group 2: Loyola, Kent Depaul
Group 3: Northwestern Business College
Group 4: John Marshall School of Law

I agree with the comment about when the email author starts studying for the Bar, they are, indeed, going to become very unhinged upon realizing that law shcool does not, in fact, prepare you for the Bar.

Since ATL has called this student a girl, I think she should now be estopped from going on as a male. Everyone on this post has now relied detrimentally on the student in this story being a girl, semper non sequiter, he is now a she.
UCC! FOOL!

I visited Loyola recently. If the quantity of plasma televisions and the beauty of fake plants outside of a ceremonial court room were considered for the US News rankings, then Loyola Chicago would certainly be a top 5 school.

I had this professor for Bus. Org. Loved him. First of all, what makes a person think that he/she must agree with every professor's viewpoints? Aren't disagreements in the academic setting supposed to spur further discourse?

Second, are you kidding me? This professor tells the class exactly what will be on the exam during the final class.

Take your grade, graduate, and get on with your pathetic life!

198 and 222:

It sounds as if you are a little bitter about the part-time students. Didn't get accepted at Northwestern?

I began part-time. My LSAT score was probably much higher than yours.

Further, 2006 was a competitive year for admissions at Loyola. The average GPA/LSAT decreased from 2006 because fewer people applied, and consequently, the applicant pool was less competitive.

And I would like to add...DePaul and Kent have similar entrance stats for their part-time programs.

Get over yourselves and get over the fact that you did not get accepted to your first choice. Christ, it has been three years now.

If there has been one thing I've learned in law school, it's be very, very careful what you put down in writing.

If this person took Accounting for Lawyers because she expected a rigorous accounting course, she's either stupid or naive. Rather than doubling down on her stupidity/naivete by trying to make a power play with zero power, she would have been better to have taken a step back and said to herself, "Wow, I was stupid or naive in what I thought about this class. Oh well, lesson learned."

John Marshall has the #1 legal writing program in the State of Illinois.

John Marshall > Loyola

'nuff said

First off, this is my first time on this blog and the Prom Estoppel Troll thing is f'in hilarious! Second, this person's email is obvisouly over the top, but I'm surprised so many of us who have been through law school aren't as pissed off as this guy. I left I-banking to go to law school. I'm glad I did, but law school is a complete joke. I went to a decent T1 school and nearly all my classes were a complete waste of time. It's easy to make fun of this clown for the email, but I can at least relate to his sense of anger for paying so much for something that has so little value. I just took the free Barbri MPRE class and learned more in three hours than I did in my semester-long Prof. Responsibility course. Not sure we can do much about this problem, and I definitely don't think we should send out crazy, school-wide emails, but more people should be pissed that law school is a waste of money.

7 here.

264, thank you for your support. Without said trolling, I would not have been able to fail my contracts exam as bad as I did earlier today.

Thanks to everyone for biting.

I am disappointed that this nonsense received such broad dissemination. A number of the law students need to grow up, and not just the author of the imbecilic rant.
Hopefully, some positive developments can be salvaged from this episode. As I recall, Dean Yellen was brought in to raise Loyola's ranking through substantive improvements. Certain steps were taken over the past 3 or 4 years but the postings indicate frustration still exists with the law school administration, career services, the quality of instruction, and the rankings. These are not new issues and they have been brought up by the Loyola Law community in the past. Perhaps the public flogging that Loyola just received will accelerate the needed improvement. If not, it may be time to recruit leadership that can deliver the desired results.

I know this guy. I know the other students in this classs. He may not have chosen the smartest way to address his angst and 264 is right that he needs to find a different way to deliver the message ... but the reality of this is that this is a guy who has found two of his classmates jobs in this lousy economy. One at his prior employer of his, one at a firm of a professional contact. What other 3L can say that? This dude didn't find 1 job in this economy, he found THREE!

This guy spent a dozen years "in the real world" before law school and has done well in the ranks at LUC, but more importantly, has also held a job throughout school, manages being married with two young kids while in school and working, and has secured his post-May job. Who cares the path he took to get to where he is today and what he did or didn't do as an undergrad. Seriously, were we all the most intelligent college students? If you knew him, I don't think any other 3L could say they manage as much as this guy does.

This guy has an opinion, he speaks his mind (good or bad) and maybe he needs to deliver it diffrerently, but at least he has a pair. He's definitely not a 25 year old drone walking around saying "just let me graduate, just let me graduate" he's trying to improve something that he feels is broken so it's better (not just for him) but for those students who follow.

Another post said something about gaining good business skills like accounting will make a person a better lawyer because you can understand clients better. That's actually why he took this class. Maybe some of his 25year old peers, with no real life experience, no jobs, and no professional network to navigate for themselves or their friends for jobs after May should get their heads out of the sand and look around. This guy may actually be smarter than all the rest of us.

Wrong delivery and he probably burned a few bridges ... but maybe the drones should recognize that this guy is standing up for what he believes and standing up to the establishment to benefit others who follow him at LUC. Most of the commenters better think twice about themselves before pulling the "I'm holier than thou" card.

PS - LUC administrators and the Prof all took interest to resolve this, all heard him out, and he feels like he's been heard. No fireworks and good conversations handled professionally by all involved. The prof appologied and took ownership for not delivering what was promised. The student apologized for the email approach.

Hmmm, maybe it takes a pair to get results ... it DID get results, didn't it? Shocking....

The last comment was obviously written by the email's author

loser

loser

It looks like the post has been revised to make it gender neutral as to the author of the email.

267, unless the prof is limiting the scope of the exam or luc is refunding him a portion of his tuition, it did not get results. it got universally mocked. lame efforts at appeasing a douche bag before he further embarrasses the school are not 'results.'

267 is certainly the author of the email.

Does the prof in question still walk in 5 minutes late to every class?

wow you all have toooo much time on your hands! loyola is an absolutely lovely law school and professor ramirez is a solid professor. whomever wrote the email should be ashamed...

Hey 202 and 204....My dad can beat up your dad.

i don't have a dad. i have two moms.

can i join the dad fight. i have two moms though.

267: Sup Dave

Dean Yellen just sent out an email to the entire law school inviting us to a special Town Hall Meeting on Tuesday to discuss this incident. (Yes, we have Town Hall Meetings with the Dean every so often for students to communicate with the administration).

I can understand my fellow classmates' remarks about the quality of our Career Services and some of our professors, but I think Dean Yellen does not deserve any of the disparaging remarks. He has done nothing but try to help Loyola over the past couple of years, and I think his handling of the situation shows just how much he cares about the students and the institution. He is not simply expressing his disappointment and moving on; he is setting up a forum for students to discuss their problems and offer solutions.

For the record, I'm a 3L at Loyola, and my class is not just filled with morons who can't spell check. I graduated from a top 25 university with a high GPA and a high LSAT score, as did many of my classmates. We didn't come to Loyola because we didn't get into our top choices. We came because we get to graduate from a respectable law school debt-free.

what does it mean when your balls just won't stop itching?

and how to recognize possible manipulation of financial and accounting statements. Recent high profile accounting scandals such as Enron and WorldCom will also be explored.

Look - when Prof Redacted (catchy name, no?), added those words, he let it be known that he would stray from strictly teaching how to read and understand financial statements and reports.

This gunner needs to relax her sphincter and move on.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

I absolutely agree with comment #150,151,152.

#249
What an erudite observation. You're Hot :)

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Wow. I've read almost all of the comments on this board. A few things strike me:

1. Many posters seem interchangeably insecure and arrogant. They'll fit in with the general legal population just fine.

2. I suspect everyone's just worried about finding a job. Everyone's looking for a darn scapegoat--whether it be the administration, the profs, or the school's administration.

3. I just feel bad for everyone involved. The student who sent this email made a mistake. I suspect he knows it. But at least he will be held responsible for his words: these posts, in contrast, reveal bitter thoughts with zero accountability.

4. Yes, while I may disagree with some of the posts, the issues they raise shouldn't be ignored. Perhaps there is a big chasm between the "real world" and law school. That's true at nearly all law schools, and, frankly, that's inherent in any education program. I suspect business school students say the same thing. Abstractions, theory, diversions, opinions: these are all part of modern legal education. It's easy enough to learn black letter law, but I imagine that many students would find equally "useless" a recitation of basic legal principles in law school without at least some of the diversions, opinions, and theory that many posters here seem to resent. There are tradeoffs everywere.

Wow. I've read almost all of the comments on this board. A few things strike me:

1. Many posters seem interchangeably insecure and arrogant. They'll fit in with the general legal population just fine.

2. I suspect everyone's just worried about finding a job. Everyone's looking for a darn scapegoat--whether it be the administration, the profs, or the school's administration.

3. I just feel bad for everyone involved. The student who sent this email made a mistake. I suspect he knows it. But at least he will be held responsible for his words: these posts, in contrast, reveal bitter thoughts with zero accountability.

4. Yes, while I may disagree with some of the posts, the issues they raise shouldn't be ignored. Perhaps there is a big chasm between the "real world" and law school. That's true at nearly all law schools, and, frankly, that's inherent in any education program. I suspect business school students say the same thing. Abstractions, theory, diversions, opinions: these are all part of modern legal education. It's easy enough to learn black letter law, but I imagine that many students would find equally "useless" a recitation of basic legal principles in law school without at least some of the diversions, opinions, and theory that many posters here seem to resent. There are tradeoffs everywhere.

This guy is right - even though you get the credits you are still paying these idiots to teach you something useful. I am with the student!!! He was right to be frustrated!

I think that a Law and Econ class would serve most 3Ls a bit better:

The supply of freshly-minted attorneys (40,000 per year?) far exceeds demand in the job market.

Translation for those who slept through jr. high school: There aren't enough attorney positions for each graduate to get one. Stop blaming the administration at your school. It won't get you a job. Take responsibility for your own sorry asses. Guess what--you might have to move to a smaller city or take a job that is "beneath" you!

Should have gone to UM -- Prof D is the shit!!

What really disgusts me is the number of disrespectful and degrading posts being put up by people who are (as far as I can guess) going to be lawyers pretty soon -- maybe at major firms, or maybe just envious about that oh-so-important first salary out of school.

Either way, does earning great credentials really give someone the right to disrespect people? I am inclined to think that if someone actually thinks like this, as soon as his or her real identity is out there, problems are going to occur. (No, I'm not talking about tracking your IP addresses. I just mean if that's your way of looking at life as a professional, you should really seek out some psychological support, before you hit a brick wall). It is hard to imagine that someone I might meet as a professional posted something like 56, 57, 171, 201, 297...

Really, stuff like this is an embarrassment to the future of the legal profession.

I'm not excusing the email writer's action, but I find it interesting that no mention has been made about the student who sent this email to ATL. He/She took a molehill that looked like it was limited to a classroom and a dean and turned it into a mountain.

Thankfully, the student who sent this to ATL will never be identified, because who would want to hire an attorney who likes to publish embarrassing communications by his/her fellow attorneys (or law students)?

299: thanks for sharing. I'm sure there's some soul searching going on because of you.

300: yes, kill the messenger!

299--

297 here. The fact is that many 3Ls need a reality check. There is a sense of entitlement ingrained in many law students that a law school somehow "owes" them a job upon graduation. These are the same people who think that jobs in a smaller city or smaller firm are beneath their levels of intelligence and skill.

I was shocked to hear one 2L state that he wouldn't even consider working in the suburbs; only jobs at downtown firms met his criteria.

These are the same ones who expect career services to find an employer that meets their specific criteria, set up an interview for them, and all but guarantee that the interview will result in an offer.

The reality is that these students are not willing to put in the effort to network or broaden the scope of their job searches. The sense is that their JD guarantees them the job that they want right after graduation. Many grads have to work in an area or at a firm that isn't their "top choice" until they can prove themselves in the legal community and move up the food chain.

Getting accepted to law school is pretty competitive. Law school itself is competitive. What makes anyone think that the real world job market is NOT competitive???

Give me a break!

297:

(This is 299, and here is my only reply, hopefully).

Point taken about competition and the uselessness of expecting life on a golden platter... and nothing personal.

Competition exists - but some ppl praise the competition or get to know them instead of telling them they're idiots. I'm just saying there seems to be too much of the latter on places like this, and fine, lets have a little fun now and then, and talk some sense into people if we can...

But I'm just saying that the majority of students in my class at Loyola are all-around great people, and have both intelligence and heart. I have a feeling I would say the same thing if I were at Kent, Chicago, John Marshall, Cooley, wherever. And on the same token, I think I would be about just as surprised to see people I know and trust writing some lewd garbage or taunting people from lower-ranked schools on a site like this. Again, I am trying to appeal to the legal community as a whole.

I would be lying if I said this kind of negative talk didn't get into my head every once in a while. But we don't have to feed into it.

Here, for example, I noticed ATL had a teaser that made it look like this was another misery story about joblessness among "foolish" 2nd tier students, who grossly overestimated the value of their education. Really, no such story ever existed. If you read the email, the student had a job! ATL is a great informational source, but it seems like its mission here (as and many other contexts) is just to stir up some crazy comments. Fine. Have at it. Spreading information almost always has its justifications. I just hope that most people see through the nonsense here.

Agreed.

Some of the commenters would have you believe that the successful attorneys only graduate from "top ten" schools.

I pity any attorney who judges his or her competition based solely on the name of their law school.

I know countless "T4" grads who didn't get their dream jobs right after graduation, but quickly proved their mettle in the legal community. Honestly, I wouldn't want to face some of them in court.

The truth of the matter is that the difference between the quality of the education received at a "40" ranked school and a "90" ranked school is minimal, if non-existent.

Seriously, I was waitlisted at a "31" school and ended up attending a "67" school. Surprisingly, the entrance criteria at "67" were much more stringent.

In this job market, many of the soon-to-be grads at the T1 schools are just as apprehensive as those at T3s. Denigrating grads from lower-ranked schools is simply a way to bolster the fragile egos of people who cling to the name of their law schools as if the diplomas were some sort of security blanket. In their minds, without the degree their lives would be completely meaningless. And they must let everyone around them know this.

There is nothing worse than a lawyer who thinks he is an accountant or an accountant who thinks he is a lawyer. There are far too many pitfalls for each. Having specialized in transaction work, I have diligent in my efforts to never cross and to advise tax professionals when they are clearly crossing over to "our side." For this very reason, my law firm includes a disclaimer on any and all correspondence even remotely resembling tax advice which clearly advises the client to consult their tax professional. If this moron thought that one class in the final year of law school was going to provide her with the tools to give tax advice, then she was sadly mistaken. Oh, and I'm sorry, but you do not need a law class to show you how to read a balance sheet and income statement, you idiot. If you cannot figure that out, then you are in the wrong profession. Please keep us posted as to who the hell hires your moronic ass. It will truly be a testement to their place in the legal community. I hope their marketing professional is paying attention. If so, they may otherwise decide to kick you to the curb you pitiful excuse for a legal professional. Loyola should be blogging something to the effect of "oh dear lord, how did we let this moron advance to 3L status?" Duh... oh, by the way...I am a paralegal and have been in the legal profession for 16 years. I am obviously not a lawyer and do not profess to be, and even I know what a complete idiot you are.

I am post 305, and I know I have tons of typos, but I have had 3 beers and I am pissed.

I am post 305, and I know I have tons of typos, but I have had 3 beers and I am pissed. Oh yeah, and I could still read a P&L you moron.

303:

"But I'm just saying that the majority of students in my class at Loyola are all-around great people, and have both intelligence and heart. I have a feeling I would say the same thing if I were at Kent, Chicago, John Marshall, Cooley, wherever."

You would NOT say that if you went to John Marshall, trust me.

305: You may have a few typos when you have a few beers, but still think that you are brilliant.

305: You may have a few typos when you have a few beers, but still think that you are brilliant.

1.) Um, what documents constitute the written contract being referred to - did the enrollment form incorporate the course bulletin by reference? 2.) Does the course bulletin state that it is not to be construed as a contract, and the substance of a course can change at anytime without notice? 3.) Did the syllabus give notice that the course content had indeed changed from that described in the bulletin? 4.) Did the student attempt to mitigate by dropping the course and enrolling in another course? 5.) Do Illinois courts follow the majority and afford great deferrence to academic freedom, and are thereby loathe to hear cases brought against a university for not teaching a course as described - research this issue and you will find that courts consistently dismiss such cases for failure to state a claim or grant summary judgment in favor of the defendant university.

Hope to meet you promissory estoppel folks - including the professor - in court.

I went to LUC Law for one semester and left because I did find the teachers had poor teaching skills and the administration was out of touch and uninterested in genuine problems. I had a writing teacher who didn't know grammar and misrepresented herself on the internet.

The school refused to let me have a new teacher the second semester despite my showing them that she violated the guidelines in the faculty handbook and misrepresented herself on the internet, which lawyers I know thought was wrong and should be reported.

I'd attended a fall Town Hall meeting with Dean Yellen and others and was unimpressed. When asked about his vision for the school, he said things were basically fine. When asked about how the Wall St. Journal reported that Loyola tries to manipulate its ranking for US News and World Report, he manipulated the truth. Rather than saying we offer people who apply to the full time program but have low LSAT scores a one year placement in the night program and then tell them they can transfer so we can beat the system, which is what they do since I got one of those offers, he gave a song and dance about some older students not doing well on the LSAT because they have been out of school for a while.

Yellen seemed to smirk at some students questions. He didn't bother to come to the L1 orientation events due to elective surgery. He's got a long summer vacation when he could have had his knees done.

Emails I sent to teachers about the use of Ritalin by students were ignored.

(Actually, I think that has little to do with it. My LSAT score isn't horrible, but it isn't great either. I did decide that law is a changing field with a lot fewer opportunities. I really think that unless you can get into a first tier school or are independently wealthy and can pay for law school without any debt, law is not the best choice nowadays. The field is overcrowded.)

I taught English at the college level and would never stray from the course description like this Instructor. (I can't get over that these instructors call themselves Prof. when in all other fields Prof. is a title it takes years and years to earn.) I could never get used to the indifference that many Loyola teachers had towards their students, whose tuition pays for their mortgages, health care, food, clothes, vacations, sabbaticals. I felt like I was paying for a Ferrari and getting a used Chevy.

312-
Glad that you left Loyola!
1) Had you stayed beyond first semester, you would have had some great professors.
2) Many schools allow PTE students to transfer (including Kent and others)
3. If a doctor lawfully prescribes a person medication, IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS TO TELL THE PROFESSORS; YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR--YOU ARE A LAW SCHOOL DROPOUT!!!

ATL is bad for the legal community, Get rid of the comments sections!