No BYU?

Oh, and first.

First, Utahn!

Don't forget SMU and UNC.

How BYU fails to make the list boggles the mind. Oh, and mDNA for the win. Sorry guys.

Exmormon dood

I heard the biggest factor was placement in BIGamyLAW.

The list says that BYU and U of Utah were not considered for the list.

Wow, complete fail by #2. Not first, and the story was for schools OUTSIDE Utah.

The list must be only for out-of-Utah schools... BYU and the U of Utah should obviously outrank UNLV.

BYU and Utah weren't considered.

Any listing of "Top Mormon-friendly Law Schools" that doesn't include BYU is automatically suspect.

-Mormon T14 2L

There is an LA-based firm that has already decided to only extend offers to 50% of its 2009 class.

Can you guess which one?

The Mormon proclivity for partying is often underrated.

2, 5, 9, 11,

....

-Guest

Dudes. Outside of Utah. Read carefully.

-- Mormon lawya

Interesting that a Jesuit school is on there. I would have thought ND would be on there.

Interesting that a Jesuit school is on there. I would have thought ND would be on there.

They explicitly remove BYU (real #1) and Utah (real #2) from the rankings. The list is actually for schools 3-12.

http://www.mormonlawyers.com/2008/07/tomorrow-we-unveil-top-ten-most-mormon.html

I am a Mormon, and I have to say, this list is ridiculous. Mormons need to get a thicker skin and go places that are outside their comfort zones--not the "friendliest" schools.

But thanks, Elie, for noticing that Mormons take a lot of "crap" that would not be okay if directed at Catholics, Jews, Muslims, African-Americans, homosexuals, etc. Our Mormon faith teaches that we should let others worship "how, ehere or what they may." Sometimes we don't live up to it (see the gay marriage debate wehere Mormons are, on the whole, wrong in my opinion), but the world would be a better place if all people did.

I like how the top Mormon friendly law school is named after the man who started Boyd Gaming Corporation. The company makes its money off of gambling--a practice that the Mormon church is opposed to.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is opposed to gambling, including lotteries sponsored by governments. Church leaders have encouraged Church members to join with others in opposing the legalization and government sponsorship of any form of gambling."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c9bb2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

There a temple only a few blocks uptown from Fordham, across the street from the B&N.

Guess it was the cost of living that knocked them out of the top ten.

Our bad. By now we should know better than to assume that Mystal has included all the relevant information in his post. It's just hard to get into the habit of cite-checking puff-piece blog entries.

-- 2, 5, 9, 11

How will a Mormon graduating from one of these law schools besides Michigan be able to support their 8 children?

Elie, you might want to post a clarification that the source you're quoting explicitly excluded BYU and U. Utah from the list.

b o r i n g

Elie, you might want to post a clarification that the source you're quoting explicitly excluded BYU and U. Utah from the list.

What about Georgetown and Yeshiva?

I have never met a Mormon (whether in the legal profession or otherwise) that I could trust.

Oh 23- That's so fresh! Spot on! What's that? You've got a polygamy joke? Wow! You are very funny and you bring such fresh material!

Holy God ... what part of "outside of Utah" is confusing?
--Elie

Firms looking to save money should hire more Mormon summer associates because they do not drink.

What is a Utah?

#31,

You forgot to add to the end of your post "in public."

Just like the Baptists....

Holy God, Elie ... this part:

"I like a good Mormon joke as much as the next guy, but are there places outside of Utah where Mormons aren't subjected to a religious double standard? Mormon lawyers has compiled a list of the "Top Ten Mormon Friendly Law Schools." Number one on the list: "

That's the only place that says "outside of Utah," and it's not at all clear that you're referring to the list itself.

Criminy.

Why do we care?

Why do we care?

Why do we care?

If you people *read the post* you would have seen the mention that the list is about otuside Utah. you don't need to go to the source list to find it -- it is in the second paragraph: "places outside of Utah." I know all the cool kids are bashing Elie -- but sometimes, guys, you're the idiots, not Elie. I'm looking at you, 22.

Why do we care?

Why do we care?

Elie,

What's so confusing? The fact that you routinely fuck up every single post you do. The fact that you actually posted something that wasn't obviously filled with errors is preplexing to readers.

I am shocked that UVA is not on this list.

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Seriously, Elie? After all of your countless sloppy errors you are going to criticize your readers' lack of attention to detail.

I can't wait until you are fired.

Jones Day hires Mormons.

Funny how the top 7 schools (plus Utah, if we're counting in-state) exist only thanks to big, bad, evil government.

Elie Mystal was an editor
Dum dum dum dum dum.
He wrote articles for ATL
Dum dum dum dum dum.

People who criticize his grammar are
Dum dum dum dum dum.
But this article as a whole is
Dumb dumb dumb dumb duuumb.

"Seriously, Elie? After all of your countless sloppy errors you are going to criticize your readers' lack of attention to detail"

Because when someone is sloppy, that means everyone else doesn't have to pay attention to detail? Excellent.

Seriously, Elie? After all of your countless sloppy errors you are going to criticize your readers' lack of attention to detail.

I can't wait until you are fired.

I WANT A LIST FOR TOP JEWISH LAW SCHOOLS!!!

" I will celebrate this occasion with chocolate." And how is this different from every hour of your life Elie?

Post 23 = Winnah!

So, Mormons criticize homosexual marriage but encourage polygamy.... I guess if a homosexual relationship could produce 20 offspring, Mormons would be on the forefront of the gay rights movement.

Any Mormon outside of Utah is automatically suspect.

"Isn't UNLV also 13 miles from a brothel? Temptation is awesome."

That's funny.

I'm surprised UPenn State - Carlisle didn't make the list. You kick any tree in that town and a handful of Mormon law students fall out.

On a totally unrelated note, March MPRE scores are up

29 - a joke about Mormons having a lot of kids isn't a polygamy joke. I grew up in Utah and had lots of friends with 7 or more siblings. Their parents weren't part of plural marriages.

29 you dipshit, it wasn't a polygamy joke.

23 made a joke about how Mormons have lots of children, which they do. It is not uncommon for Mormon families (wherein there is but a single wife) to have boatloads of rugrats. If you're going to insist on venting your righteous indignation in the comments, at least make sure it's legitimately directed.

That is all.

48: Elie gets paid to write this garbage, I don't get paid to read it. Hence, the standards are completely different.

Moron.

- 44

29- It was not meant to be a polygamy joke. Did I say anything about multiple wives? Is it not true that Mormons tend to have large families, as in children. It bothers me to see young lawyers coming out of law school with thousands of dollars of debt thinking that they are going to land a job paying $$$$. If you go to one of the schools on the Mormon friendly list, chances are, in order to land a high paying job to support a large fam, you would probably need to be at the top of your class. Am I wrong? I graduated from Chicago. I knew many Mormon law students that were graduating with 3 kids.

No, 52, Mormons do not "encourage polygamy." It has been banned by the LDS Church since 1890. Yes, more than a century ago.

1. There are lots of Mormons in Vegas. Lots.

2. Tuition at Michigan is $22k? I want to know where my extra $20k is going.

UVA should be up there -- very congenial and family friendly. Frankly I've been more comfortable here than at BYU, where I did undergrad. People here are just nice, so I guess I'd put UVA in the top 10 of a similar ranking for any religion.

I suppose this ranking is more based on total numbers of Mormon students, which I think is a terrible reason to choose a school. Branch out, folks. You'll be glad you did.

Mormons also believe that stuff you mentioned about Catholics. They are Christians after all. I'm pretty sure you can't be a Christian and not believe that Jesus came back from the dead.

57,58,60-

I know. It's that the same tired jokes come out about Mormons. They center around one of a few things, including not drinking/smoking, missionaries, polygamy, or big familes. My point is these jokes are tired and lame. At least bring something fresh.

-29

Why the heck do we need moron-friendly law schools? The legal profession is in a major decline, and law schools already admit enough students with marginal academic and reasoning skills. We don't need them to encourage morons to enroll as well! This is just wrong.

Oh. Wait. Mormons? Nevermind.

61 because they couldn't become a state otherwise. Blah blah blah boring.

How did UChicago not make this list? Isn't BYU the second most represented undergrad there, trailing only Harvard? Also antecdotally, when I visited, it seemed like there were Mormons all over the place.

I think there are tons of schools that match U Michigan's Mormon-Friendliness. Lots of Mormons seem to go to law school and so there are lots of schools with 30 or so Mormons.

Doubt many people care about this article or these comments besides Mormons, though.

59, I like how, for you, "not getting paid" = "I have an excuse to be sloppy when I read, and then I get to complain loudly even when *my* sloppiness is the reason I'm confsued." Nice work there. I read the article without getting confused. Not hard.

This profession has a great many LDS attorneys, and they are some of the finest I know.

27, my guess is that GW is on here over G'town because of the number of students. GW's strong IP program aggressively seeks strong recruits with tech backgrounds from the U and BYU. Plus, the law school dean from 1998-2003 was Michael Young, current President of the U, which helped out on the recruiting front for a number of years.

Plus, I gather that whole not being a Jesuit school thing really helps in recruiting the religious minorities, which is probably part of the reason why GW has a huge Jewish population as well.

52 and 61 both have it slightly wrong. It's true that the Mormon church stopped marrying men to multiple living women in 1890. Polygamy remains part of LDS doctrine, however, as 61 undoubtedly knows. In an LDS temple wedding, the doctrine goes, a man and woman are "sealed" as husband and wife "for time and all eternity." As a matter of doctrine, they remain married even after one or both of them are dead. Here's where the polygamy comes in: Even under today's doctrine, a man can be sealed (that is, married) to multiple women in the Celestial Kingdom (that's the highest level of heaven, where the worthiest all get to meet back up with their families). In fact, the church will seal a sealed, widowed man to a second living wife even as he remains sealed to the first one. While this is not legal polygamy, in the sense of having multiple legal wives, the man is nevertheless married to both women, simultaneously, in the religious sense. And that's the sense that really matters in LDS doctrine.

The point of all this is that, under Mormon doctrine, the religious and secular definitions of marriage are not perfectly congruent. Which makes it all the more curious that they got their Temple Garments (church-issued underwear) all bunched up over Prop 8.

Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon? He's a good guy right??

You might consider posting the disclaimer that BYU wasn't considered, since post almost makes no sense when read without that knowledge. Also, Joseph Smith was the first to make jello with marshmallows and shredded carrots.

60, I agree. I'm mormon, and it always blows me away how many mormons in general have very large families that they really cannot provide for.

74 wins the thread. JS also invented caffeine-free cola and the carpeted basketball court.

Gimme back my lime green jell-o
gimme my jell-o!

I heard that Harry is trying to convert Nancy, and that she is currently meeting with the missionaries.

"UVA should be up there -- very congenial and family friendly. Frankly I've been more comfortable here than at BYU, where I did undergrad. People here are just nice, so I guess I'd put UVA in the top 10 of a similar ranking for any religion.

I suppose this ranking is more based on total numbers of Mormon students, which I think is a terrible reason to choose a school. Branch out, folks. You'll be glad you did."

Same goes for Columbia.

3500 sq ft wife and Mormon = Paradise

monogamy = epic fail

If you're Mormon, are you required to wear a Snuggy or a Slanket all the time?

The "outside of utah" reference is clearly to people making jokes about mormons...not to the list itself. I understand how it could be possibly be in reference to the list and so incorporated, but since this is a blog, you should probably cut down on the nuance and just say, "not considering BYU or Univ. of Utah". I have enough close reading to do in law school.

66- Well played.
Elie - don't you celebrate pretty much anything by eating chocolate?

UVA is a great school for LDS students!

Ellie, for craps sake. I don't make fun of your weight or terrible grammar, but the "utah not included" info, which is basically CENTRAL to this list making any sense, was in your incongruent, 1st grade grammar filled first paragraph.

Look, I suck at grammar and spelling too. Thats what secretaries are for. But for crying out loud, would it have been so hard to put (outside Utah) or (ex. UT) in the title? Really?

The only reason Lat hasn't fired you is cause morons like me give hits to this crap site to chastise your suckness. Its no wonder you couldn't get a real job and work for this TTT site

I like Mormons.

I thought LDS students were the ones who always arrived at school on the short bus.

Oh stop, people. Use your little brains. If the Y and the U aren't on the top of a list called Top Ten Mormon Friendly Law Schools, it's reasonably safe to assume the listmakers didn't include them in their tally. Good lord, do you need everything spelled out for you?

I'm glad I don't know any Mormons at Columbia.

-Columbia 2L Stud

The only places I've ever met Mormons are in a gay bar and in rehab. True story.

-- Lawyer gay

Here's the truth. The top 14 law schools for Mormon students are as follows:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. NYU
6. Chicago
7. Penn
8. UVa
9. Michigan
10. Berkeley
11. Duke
12. Northwestern
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown.

Sound familiar?

-UVa '08

Las Vegas, Washington, D.C., and Ann Arbor "most white?" Not quite.

78 -- best comment that only Mormons will find funny.

13 -
Q. What does the Mormon girl do when someone brings alcohol to the party?

A. Pulls up her panties and goes home.

(3500 sq. ft. ex-Mormon wife and a Lexis)

90- I'm a Mormon at Columbia. Meet me on the corner of Broadway and 113th, right in front of Deluxe @ 5:00pm so that I can whoop your little A.

Add Indiana University--Bloomington. They love us here. Also, the current president of the Utah Bar, Nate Alder, is an IU Law grad.

90- I'm a Mormon at Columbia. Meet me on the corner of Broadway and 113th, right in front of Deluxe @ 5:00pm so that I can whoop your little A.

My Mormon is bigger than your Mormon.

Mormons made up about 10% of my graduating class.

The bad part is that they made up about 80% of the top 10% of my graduating class.

They were all married with 2 kids. They were nice to gay people, which makes me think the press is dealing unfairly with them. And they were picked on for their religion.

That said...I like the southpark reference above. The Mormons in my school thought that episode was funny.

how do you know if there are lots of Mormons around??

Anybody ever notice that there are a lot of Mormons in Utah? More so than in other places I have been.

96/98 is legit. The tolerance of violence, combined with the aversion to PG-13 language, is a dead giveaway.

96 & 98 -- Modern-day Orrin Porter Rockwell.

@98 -- I'd be careful if I were you. I know who you are.

Polygamy is so last eon.

I'm confused. What Law School did the guy from Big Love go to? He's Mormon, right?

Next up, Elie takes a look at the Top 10 Law Schools for Scientologists! Xenu will save us!

Can Mormons be gay and still be respected at UVA?

assuming arguendo that this is true, it fails to explain why we should care. ergo, I don't. a fortiori.

Top 20 law schools where BYU undergrads ACTUALLY matriculate:

1. BYU
2. Utah
3. Arizona State
4. George Washington
5. UNLV
6. Georgetown
7. Duke
8. U. Arizona
9. George Mason
10. Michigan
11. Virginia
12. William & Mary
13. Texas
14. Harvard
15. UCLA
16. Columbia
17. Chicago
18. Stanford
19. Berkeley
20. Oregon

http://ccc.byu.edu/prelaw/documents/Top25SchoolsStudentsfromBYUAppliedtoin2006-07.doc

Granted, this is not representative of all LDS law students, but probably a better indicator of the "Mormon-friendly" schools based on real data.

Why does the Church issue underwear???

95 -- What exactly are you bragging about? Your wife is apparently huge...and we've all got Lexis accounts...

you're only catholic, elie, because they give you a little snack for attending Mass

Top 20 law schools where BYU undergrads ACTUALLY matriculate:

1. BYU
2. Utah
3. Arizona State
4. George Washington
5. UNLV
6. Georgetown
7. Duke
8. U. Arizona
9. George Mason
10. Michigan
11. Virginia
12. William & Mary
13. Texas
14. Harvard
15. UCLA
16. Columbia
17. Chicago
18. Stanford
19. Berkeley
20. Oregon

http://ccc.byu.edu/prelaw/documents/Top25SchoolsStudentsfromBYUAppliedtoin2006-07.doc

Granted, this is not representative of all LDS law students, but probably a better indicator of the "Mormon-friendly" schools based on real data.

Polytheism is so last eon.

105-Great, meet me at 5:00pm. I'll buy you a burger and a sprite.

My Mormon wife is 4000 sq ft and drives a WestLaw.

116 -- Nah dude, lets go grab some beers and fuck each other.

Now that we have a good discussion going, please consider repenting, being baptized and becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ.

To learn more, visit www.mormon.org or www.lds.org

Tell me the part about how I get my own planet, assholes. If you'd lead with that, you'd spend a lot less time on those bikes.

I hate having Mormons at my school. They're always studying on the weekends and make me all self-conscious about about my "Gentile" lifestyle. Worst of all, they fuck up the curve! They need to put them all in the same classes and make them compete against each other.

assuming arguendo that this post is true, it fails to explain to me why I should care. ergo: I don't. a fortiori.

Can I get a WITNESS?!

112, the Mormon way is even better. White bread (natch) and tap water, but they bring it to you at your seat. You don't have to get up and stand in line for it like you do at Mass.

121--it's called BYU Law. It's ugly competitive, but cheap. However, being law school debt free and starting at $160k never felt so good!

All hail Moroni, progenitor of the Morons!

125 -- 6 months, tops. Enjoy it.

120--repent, get baptized, accept J.C. as your Lord and Savior and yes, just maybe, you'll get to build your own planet one day. BUT, and that's a big "but", you must clean up your language.

Elders Lat & Mystal

118- NO

Now go and take the advice from 119.
-115

Wasn't the DaVinci Code about some crazy albino Mormon trying to kill Tom Hanks?

127--I should have told you that I'm a female Hispanic and technically "gay" (although strictly-nonpracticing because I'm also devout LDS). I'm BULLETPROOF.

I dare them to fire me.

@129 -- Come on. Pretty prease? Lets go get some appletinis and really tear into each other, bear style.

Not 118.

130: no, he was fucking catholic -- opus dei!

Mr. Burns: Smithers, why haven't I heard of this "The Leader"? He's as rich and wicked as I, but he seems to enjoy tax exempt status!

Smithers: Actually, sir, with our creative book-keeping and corporate loop holes we only pay three dollars a year.

Mr. Burns: [Shocked] You're right, we're getting screwed!

Mr. Burns: Smithers, why haven't I heard of this "The Leader"? He's as rich and wicked as I, but he seems to enjoy tax exempt status!

Smithers: Actually, sir, with our creative book-keeping and corporate loop holes we only pay three dollars a year.

Mr. Burns: [Shocked] You're right, we're getting screwed!

I'm Mormon (LDS) and went to Chicago. Here is my list. Top three elite schools for a Mormon:

Harvard: very large student body of mormons, particularly great if you're a single Mormon.

Chicago: Has very large populations. BYU is the #2 feeder school to Chicago (1st is UofChicago). Chicago is #1 if you're a married Mormon. I personally wouldn't go here if I was single and had the cambridge or manhattan options. Per capita higher population than Harvard or Columbia law. Also per capita higher supreme court clerks, but that's another topic...

Columbia: Lots and lots of Mo-mos there, great place for both married or single Mormons.

Not on the list:

Stanford/NYU - not quite enough of a mass yet, but they are working their way up to respectable status.

Yale - if you're a white male Mormon, you need a 180 LSAT. There are probably one or two Mormons a year is my guess.

130--

I think Tom Hanks is taking the discussions.

89 -- thank you.

Seriously, even if Elie didn't put the "outside of Utah" disclaimer in the post (which he did), how dense are you not to deduce from first principles.

I am pretty sure a Mormon school (BYU) is going to be a Mormon friendly place.

Note this is directed at the 20 or so commenters that state : "what about BYU?"

Also, I think 92 has it the best . . . same goes for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, black, white, yellow, red, brown, disabled, challenged, etc.

131- You're apparently riddled with bullets of sexual repression. You'll spend that salary talking to shrinks if you don't start going down on broads immediately.

Tom Hanks is a gay Mormon in DaVinci code?

huh?

Other than the lame blog post and Elie's more lame summary of the blog post, this thread is fairly entertaining. "Why do you take two Mormons fishing with you? If you only take one, he will drink all your beer."

Oh, and you are correct. We love those insightful Southpark episodes:

Gary: [to Stan] Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls.
[turns around and walks off]

Cartman: Damn, that kid is cool, huh?

Nothing annoys the haters more than the realization that Mormons are actually good, tolerant people trying to make the world a better place. I know you probably disagree. But you're wrong.

The source is way off, considering they list Michigan tuition at $22k/yr... It's a lovely ol' $43k/yr for out of staters, and $40k/yr for in-staters...
Is there some sort of Mormon discount I don't know about?

What's this about Tom Hanks marrying Cartman and Stan in a polygamous gay marriage in a brothel next to UNLV law school presided over by a mormon judge who went to GW?

I'm so confused.

What about Harry Reid?

How about a list of schools where a lapsed Mormon can escape? I haven't darkened the door of a church in over fifteen years, but somehow, the brothers and sisters always track me down, including, repeatedly, when I was in law school at a school in the South. And, repeatedly, in the large east coast city where I practice now.

141, is it an accurate statement of LDS doctrine that it doesn't matter if "Joseph Smith made it all up"? I know that at some point the church is going to have to switch to a more allegorical interpretation of the BoM, but last I checked, it was still sticking with the literalist, "most correct book ever written," "It is either all true, or none of it is true" position. If the kid on South Park said that at Fast & Testimony Meeting, would the Bishop let it pass?

Oh, and I don't think anyone seriously thinks that Mormons are anything but great people individually. The more common criticism is that the institution is bad, and that Mormons give it 10% of their income and basically accept the words of its leaders as the voice of God.

145--you're clearly not aware of the tracking device they inserted into your head when they laid hands on you after your baptism. And no, laying on hands has nothing to do with Barney Frank, Harry Reid or any other gay mormons.

Mormonlaw to 190!

146 -

I believe the most accurate statement is that Mormons believe in personal agency, the atonement of Jesus Christ, and a direct relationship with our Heavenly Father. I can't comment on exactly what all Mormons believe; I only know what I believe. And yes, the kid on South Park would suffer fairly severe repercussions for such an outburst in a Sacrament Meeting (much like other religions would be hesitant to tolerate irreverent behavior during their sacred and revered moments).

With regard to the literal versus allegorical interpretation of the Book of Mormon, I'm going to duck the question and say that everyone should read it, pray about it, and find out for themselves. Now, I need some more Diet Coke...

-141

What's the best school for Scientologists?

141,

Polygamy + Not letting blacks join until this century = you are wrong

Actually, 151, it was last century. 1978 to be exact. And before that, blacks could join, they just couldn't hold the higher-level priesthood (I'm not going to even try to spell it), which effectively barred them from holding leadership positions or undergoing the more important temple rituals. But they could join. If that makes it any better.

141,

Tolerant? See Prop. 8 for why you are full of shit. You complain about being treated differently than other more "mainstream" religions, while at the same time spending massive amounts of money in support of legislation to take away the civil rights of another minority group.

151, voicing your opinion as you did = revealing your stupidity.

P.S.--a quick read on wikipedia shows the utter transparency of your stupidity.

wait did i miss something - why isn't BYU on there?

OK, 154, but am I more or less correct? Does that make it any better?

152

151/153-

Like I said, "You'll disagree. But you're wrong."

I'm not going to get baited into a fight with a bunch of ATL miscreants who want to tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to campaign for or make campaign contributions to whomever or whatever I want to. It is a little ironic that you continue to harp on Prop. 8 when other states (see, e.g., Fla. -- that's Bluebook; not that you would ever need it) passed more strict gay-marriage bans. How about I decide what I believe and you decide what you believe and we put our competing views up for a democratic vote and see who wins. Oh wait. We already did that. You lost. Sorry.

-141

154,

Never start a sentence "a quick read on wikipedia shows . . ."

155 are you kidding me?????

#19 -- "But thanks, Elie, for noticing that Mormons take a lot of "crap" that would not be okay if directed at Catholics, Jews, Muslims, African-Americans, homosexuals, etc. Our Mormon faith teaches that we should let others worship "how, ehere [sic] or what they may."

Really? Is that why LDS spends millions of dollars holding ridiculous "baptismal" ceremonies purporting to baptise long-dead persons of other faiths, and then holding records of all those persons inside their records cave inside the mountain, showing that they are all "really" Mormons, so these dead people can go to Mormon heaven? Give us a break, huh?

And you wonder why a lot of crap gets directed at Mormons? Think hard.

141/157,

You make the world a better place for Mormons. Ask some homosexuals in California if the overwhelming Mormon support for Prop 8 made the world a better place.

How about the non-Mormons in Utah? Are they treated the same, or as Gentiles?

Listen, JC came to North America, and he converted the Native Americans. What JC failed to mention was the whole polygamy thing. He forgot. Joe Smith figured it out though.

It's amazing how the people who get so worked up about Prop 8 have no respect for the civil rights of bisexual polygamists. If I should be able to marry whomever I choose I don't see any reason why that should be limited to one person.

Ask some homosexuals in California if the overwhelming black support for Prop 8 made the world a better place.

153, really? Blacks and black churches overwhelmingly opposed Proposition 8, so that means it's acceptable for people to be intolerant towards blacks?

Ok, great, so this is how liberals think. Two wrongs make a right. Actions of the group are automatically attributed to all the individual members. It's ok to be intolerant towards a group as long as it's not the group whose civil rights are in vogue (right now, the gays).

Putting the large, obvious issues of gay rights, blacks and the priesthood and polygamy aside, my experience is that mormons do not make the world a better place. The culture is incredibly repressive and always, always judging. Pick any congregation at random and you will find numerous divorces, physical and sexual abuse, rampant sexism, and poverty that comes from having too many children too young.

I don't think Mormons are any worse than any other group (in terms of divorce, abuse, sexism, poverty, etc.) The difference is that, despite all of this, and despite the laughably flawed doctrine, they still think they have the answers and that they ARE better people.

161-

Should I ask Californian homosexuals whether the overwhelming black support for Proposition 8 made the world a better place? Do you hate blacks or hispanics as much as you do Mormons? Oh, and guess what? I did not participate in or contribute to the Proposition 8 debate. But I'm probably still a bad person in your mind. In the words of Cartman...

Now, non-Mormons in Utah? I guess there are a few. Do they get treated worse than Mormons? Probably. Probably a lot. Do I treat them worse than other Mormons? I hope not. I certainly try not to. The only internal bias I actively promote is biglaw versus everyone else (in other words, I'm a classist).

Jew, Gentile, Mormon, Non-Mormon, Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, Homosexual, whatever... We're all people after all. We all have ideas and opinions on how to make the world a better place. So go do something about it instead of whining and complaining about what everyone else is doing.

I'm not attempting to thrust (yes, the word "thrust" was purposefully chosen) my beliefs on you any more than you are trying to thrust yours on me. I know. It is okay for you to speak out because you have the moral high-ground. With that in mind, maybe you can let some of that bitterness go.

161 - I grew up in Utah. I'm not Mormon. The crap I get from non-Utahns about being from Utah, or about how "horrible" it must have been living there is so, so, so much worse than anything I ever lived through as one of the only non-Mormon kids in my school. I miss SLC and my Mormon friends like crazy. They are awesome, happy, loving people. Some are complete assholes, but so are some of the Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Methodists, Atheists, and Hindus I know.

It's actually a lovely place. You should visit, if you can suppress your disdain long enough to give it a chance.

168 misses his honkybubble.

Where's my planet? This is a bunch of bullshit.

153 is a racist because he believes that all blacks and Hispanics are intolerant, and those who say they are tolerant are "full of shit."

i know some mormons in my section. i find their religion intriguing...

*pretends to consider reading a book of mormon during an interview with a mormon biglaw hiring partner...also expresses my interest in eating jello and caffeine free coke*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

I think you can't judge a modern day church for its historical practices. All churches have really crazy histories and scandals. Joseph Smith baptized several black people, gave them the priesthood, and sent them on missions in the 1830s and 1840s. However, somewhere along the way, the practice of not allowing blacks to receive the priesthood crept into the religion. Was that wrong? I think so. Many Mormons think so. Does that make the entire religion untrue? No. God's perfect work is carried out by imperfect people and he is the final judge on humankind (thankfully).

As for plural marriage: it was a frontier church at an insane time in U.S. history. Considering many cultures still practice plural marriage, the Mormons practicing plural marriage in the 1860s and 1870s while colonizing uncharted territory isn't as strange as it sounds out-of-context.

As an LDS member, I'm NOT surprised that Mormons are getting involved in the democratic process with Prop. 8. Its their prerogative and they have a firm belief that procreation is salvation (so fill in the logical steps re: opposition to gay marriage). However, I AM surprised that LDS people aren't more understanding of the bigotry and hatred that homosexuals face. Mormons get persecuted a lot. We should be kinder to homosexuals than we are.

Ha ha 153 ... these mormons are working you

166, you are being unfair. People have problems. So do Mormons. I know a lot of Mormons, and they don't pretend to be perfect (they just try to be).

173 FTW!

I wonder how many of my fellow mormon classmates have come out of the woodworks for this post? From the looks of it, quite a few. Especially intriguing is the supposed byu law latina lesbiana. However, I doubt she truly exists.

Hey, I'm a gay, and I have a request for my fellow gays and our well-meaning non-gay supporters:

When someone mentions Mormons, could we all NOT start saying offensive things about them and their beliefs and the way they live their lives? It makes us look like assholes and we don't need to do it. I'm not talking about engaging in respectful discussion of the appropriate place of religion in the laws of a secularly-governed nation, or of policy. I'm talking about jumping down people's throats and calling them "bigots" and so forth. Show me one person who has actually changed their mind about my civil rights after reading some fucking stupid argument like this on the internet. I will shake your hand and then hop onto my gay-ass unicorn and ride off into the sunset. Until that time, I am embarassed to be associated with any of you.

My only beef with Mormons is their no-coffee, no-alcohol stance. I find it difficult to socialize without drugs.

Where's my gay-ass unicorn?

179, I think you mean, your gay Ass Unicorn - as in, Ass Lobster.

Well said, 177. The scene here in LA after Prop. 8 passed was mortifying. So many hysterical people shouting unbelievably ugly, incendiary things outside the Mormon temple. It hardly seemed the like the most effective way to point out that the *other* side was wrong and awful.

181, I worry a lot about what happens in LA if the Cal Supreme Ct upholds Prop 8. I don't live there but I hope the community stays away from the temple and from churches generally. Can't be good for anyone!

176, do you doubt:

a) that an Hispanic woman graduated from BYU and got a job paying $160k a year?
b) (a) + she is lesbian?
c) (a) + (b) + she does not practice being a lesbian?
d) all of the above + she is bulletproof and can never be fired?

"As for plural marriage: it was a frontier church at an insane time in U.S. history. Considering many cultures still practice plural marriage, the Mormons practicing plural marriage in the 1860s and 1870s while colonizing uncharted territory isn't as strange as it sounds out-of-context."

Do you have any idea how crazy this sounds? Perhaps because your grandpa tried to justify this crazy a$$ practice to you since day 1, you find some merit to the above argument. To those non-versed in such insanity, it just sounds nuts. An the Muslims who believe in it as well are also nuts.

hey 166.

the plural of anecdote is not data. whatever your experience, you give no support for such sweeping claims. so you met a couple of assholes that happen to be mormon. not over it yet?

*sigh* Could anyone tell me if there is a legal blog where I can find out the latest news about law firms without having to wade through pop-crap or "witty" blather by the editor? You know a legal blog written with the professionalism expected from, oh I don't know, lawyers?

183 - I made some assumptions about the latina lesbiana, mostly that she is a current law student. Perhaps she is not. But if not she had to have graduated within the last few years since they just fairly recently raised to 160K (and then in only certain cities). Like I said, I have my doubts, but certainly there are a few folks that don't fit the mold at byu law.

Way to go mocking your own religion Elie. So dignified.

The problem with the nonsensical Mormon beliefs isn't that they believe in angels, etc., but that they seriously believe that angels, etc., were floating around upstate NY in the 19th century, while everyone else (in western civilization) was busy being post-enlightenment. It's not that their beliefs are false, it's that their beliefs are too ridiculous to allow the believers to be taken seriously.

What is the most Gay - Mormon friendly law school?

Who is Joseph Smith?

Um, 189...sort of like the fundamentalist Catholics who believe they are *actually* eating Christ's body during communion? You don't have to poke at any religion's mysticism very hard to find a bunch of fantastical, bizarre shit.

191 -

I think he played basketball for Maryland. I'll never forget Dick Vitale screaming about "Joe Smith going to Salt Lake City" during March Madness. That was awesome.

191 -

Come on dude, Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon while examining stones in his hat - pretty much common knowledge I thought.

192 - You got that right. I think it is hilarious when religious people say that mormons believe crazy things. It is all crazy.

Same thing with Scientology. All that Xenu and E-meter crap is no less reasonable to me than son of god rising from the dead.

193 -

Who is Dick Vitale?

Thanks

- 191

192 -- They probably don't believe that they're going to vomit blood and guts if they get sick after taking the sacrament. Even if they do, that's why you called them fundies!

Seriously, though, mid-19th Century? Angels? Upstate New York? Garden of Eden is in Missouri? There's a dude in Utah with a direct line to God (which the big guy answers)? Really really?

189 is clearly Catholic. We Catholics only feign a belief in angels and creepy resurrection stories to curry favor with mothers-in-law and score some sweet Catholic school girl ass.

153-

I realize that at this point I'm just piling on. But oh well. A few Mormons complain about the way that their religion is treated and portrayed. Sometimes, their complaints are justified. But most Mormons I know are very appreciative for the respect and support given to them by all nations, peoples, tongues, and creeds.

All and all, I think it is the Mormon-haters that complain more than the Mormons. (And last I heard, Mormons weren't rioting out in front of state buildings in Massachusetts or Connecticut following their approval of same-sex marriages). It seems like Mormon support of Prop. 8 was conducted in a manner much more appropriate than resorting to spray-painting houses of worship and harassing members for no reason other than their personal faith.

Where the hell were all you people before the election? Why is it that you feel you must resort to petty name calling. If someone has wronged or offended you, your issue is with that person, not with their religion.

Ha ha...153 is STILL getting worked

189, are we talking degree of "unbelievability" here . . . ? How is it any more plausible that prophets split the Red Sea, built a massive boat and filled it with all animal species, called fire down from heaven to burn false priests, spoke to God in a burning bush, and so on? (Mind you, about 50% of the world's population believes these "ridiculous" things actually happened, including Jews, Muslims, and all Christian denominations).

The Enlightenment opened civil society to free thought and reason outside the death grip of the Catholic empire, and many countries become less religious, but the billions of adherents to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition still believe, literally, in angels, prophets, and all manner of "ridiculous" things.

176- I'm BYU Law. She exists. The few of us who know keep our mouths VERY shut about it.

202 may be right. I know at least one less-than-closeted gay at BYU Law, and one of my now-openly gay friends transferred to UCLA last year. Nobody gave/gives them crap about their sexuality. They might not feel comfortable in ultra-straight "Happy Valley," but I'm a white, straight, married Mormon and I don't like Provo either.

199 ("It seems like Mormon support of Prop. 8 was conducted in a manner much more appropriate than resorting to spray-painting houses of worship and harassing members for no reason other than their personal faith."),

I'd gladly have my house spray-painted if it meant I got my right to get married back. Keep it in perspective. This was not a simple matter of political taste; this was a vote on the basic civil rights of a minority, and history will always remember that the LDS Church and its members fought hard against equality.

Amen, 177.

Can we all at least agree not to make any more gay Mormons for our new planets?

My planet's gonna have an IMAX version of Red Dawn.

Non-Mormon here- I think bigamy should be allowed, but only if coupled with more stringent restrictions on public assistance (i.e., have as many wives as you want, but don't make me subsidize your inability to support them).

I give the Mormons credit for gall. They had the audacity to go all the way to the 10th Circuit claiming that it was super for the city of St. George to pay the temple's electric bill. http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/436537

204-

You need to qualify your statement. *Some* members, maybe even the majority, fought hard to get Prop 8 passed. However, there is a minority of LDS Members who are very upset about the LDS Church's stance with regards to Prop 8. I don't agree with the LDS stance and I will never support Prop 8, no matter what the official "company line" is.

Mormon 2L

I love this defense of plural marriage:

As for plural marriage: it was a frontier church at an insane time in U.S. history. Considering many cultures still practice plural marriage, the Mormons practicing plural marriage in the 1860s and 1870s while colonizing uncharted territory isn't as strange as it sounds out-of-context

What I am having trouble understanding is how come Joseph Smith was marrying other men's wives. (at least 11). At the same time hiding it from his first wife, Emma until she caught him at it. Then could you explain how it was cool to be "marrying" girls as young as 14.

By the way Joseph started his little Celestial sex thing in the 1830's.

I tried this back at 72 but it was too long and nobody read. So I'll be more direct:

Does the church teach that polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom?

Does the church teach that "plural marriage," as they call it, is necessary to achieve exaltation?

I know it's easier to gangbang critics who get it slightly wrong, but you can't complain about unfair treatment if you ignore the substantive arguments.

-- exmormon at 72, 146, 152, 156

210,

Listen. You just don't "get" the fronteir lifestyle of the 1860's and 1870's. Okay? Marrying 14 year old girls was totally kosher back then. See. It makes perfect sense.

I'd gladly have my house spray-painted if it meant I got my right to get married back. Keep it in perspective. This was not a simple matter of political taste; this was a vote on the basic civil rights of a minority, and history will always remember that the Catholic Church and its members fought hard against equality.

/s/

Joe Polygamist,
August 3, 1935

If we're going to start a thread on shitty religions, can we please start [and end?] with Islam? Please? I mean, come on people? We are living in the 21st Century and all...

The closest a Mormon gets to terrorism is when his Suburban blocks a fire hydrant.

Mormons don't take near enough crap!

Has anyone actually read the book of Mormon? It reads like it wsa written in a weekend by a drunk summer associate.

216: All "holy books" read like that...but yes the BoM is a particularly cheesy example...

213- I guess the polygamists weren't trumpeting the whole "wrong side of history" argument, huh?

204: maybe you should take that up with the CA SC, which thought that it could hand out "rights" that didn't really exist...

At some point, the homosexual community decided that marriage wasn't just a function of society deciding to recognize certain relationships, but actually a creature of constitutional and/or natural law. Hence, it's not a "privilege," but a "right," and anyone who would try restricting that "right" based on their own personal beliefs is a bigot.

That's great and all, but it will be amusing to see that same community react when the polygamists, poly-andrists, and poly-whatever else come flying out of the hills asking for recognition of their "rights" too. Based on the current arguments I've seen from homosexual commentariat on this issue, the collective response will be a very dignified version of the following: "ewww, that kind of marriage is gross. No f-ing way, not in our country."

Which is basically what the Mormons have been saying to the homosexuals for the last few years in California.

So unless you're all willing to scream obscenities at anyone who opposes Tom Green's request to marry another 5 sets of wives and daughters, I suggest you all shut the holy fuck up.

--J. Golden

220 - there are several problems with that argument.

1. The SC has called marriage a "fundamental right" not the homosexual community. See e.g. Loving v. Virginia and Zablocki v. Redhail, or Michael H.

2. The key distinction between what homosexuals want and what polygamists want is that homosexuals are only asking for what heterosexuals already have: the right of two adults to enter into a publicaly recognized relationship of mutual respect and obligation. Whereas polygamy is asking for something completely unlike what has been done: the right of a person to marry as many people as they want. Heterosexuals don't even enjoy this right.

- 1L Mormon

221

A homosexual has the right to marry someone of the opposite sex just like anyone else.

Where does marriage come from church or state?

I believe it is a religious practice adopted by the state, so religious believers want to try and keep marriage as close to their religious beliefs as possible. From a religious point of view homosexuals can never marriage because that was never the intention of marriage.

Answer to problem. Government leaves marriage to religion and allows for unions to recieve the tax benefits or healthcare benefits. Let society choose who can qualify for those unions (gays, straight, polygamists whoever) and leave marriage to churches and let them decide who to marry. Problem solved and we can all join hands and sing Kum bay ya

Can a Mormon answer these basic questions:

Do Mormons truly believe that God was once a human like you and me?

Do Mormons believe that humans can become gods in their own right?

I've heard this is true, but I'm not sure if it's just slander or not.

223

Yes and Yes

One of the big reasons why they are not considered Christians by the Christian coalition.

Why does Mormonism always remind me of Scientology?

Doesn't it sound like 223 is baiting someone?
Why would those questions be slanderous?

1. Mormons believe in the eternal progression of humankind.

2. Mormons believe that each human is the spiritual offspring of God.

3. Growing to become like one's primogenitor (e.g. God the Father) through God's power and instruction is a logical outgrowth of 1 and 2.

4. In light of this process, the belief that God was once like humans are now is merely an abstract doctrine that resulted from someone trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.

I don't think any Mormons believe that they can become equal to God or better than God, simply that they will become for their own spiritual offspring the way God is to us.

Mormons are crazy. The differences between the hard-to-believe miracles and myths of the bible and the book of mormon are twofold: one, the bible stuff happened 10,000-2,000 years ago, so we don't have proof that it was fake; second, to the extent there is archaeological evidence, it actually supports the stories in the bible. for the book of mormon, there is extensive evidence that everything smith talks about is false. the guy was a convicted felon, a fraud, and he preyed on young pre-teen women at a time when women developed much later. very sick guy.

221:

Actually, heterosexual males already had the right to marry lots of women. In fact, they had that right for centuries, in lots of different societies across the globe. In this country, they only lost the right when the United States Congress-and then the Supreme Court--decided that the majority could take it from them.

There is no comparable history for homosexual right in history.

So if the right to marriage is now going to be branched out to homosexuals, that will be a historical anamoly of the first order. It would only make sense to then apply it to polygamists, as it has already been applied throughout human history.

Not saying I approve of this, but there really isn't much of a principled distinction between the two arguments.

Archaeological evidence that contradicts the Bible:

Dinosaurs
Evolution of man
Israelites in Egypt

These are just a few that seem pretty significant.

225:

Because you apparently don't know anything substantive about Mormonism or Scientology, other than the fact that neither is mainstream. Other than that, not much of a connection.

229 here... that's meant to read "NO Israelites in Egypt"

Can't we all just get along and continue piling on 153? As a Mormon, I enjoy watching ridiculous arguments pounded into the ground. I know. I shouldn't enjoy it. I'll repent.

In the meantime, props to people of all religions who are willing to stand up for what they believe. Mormonism is easily understood by those who sincerely are interested but, like all religions, it has its own quirks and eccentric personalities.

(And by the way, spray-painting someone's church or temple is a little different than spray-painting their house. You can spray-paint my house all you want and it's not that big of a deal. Just like it isn't that big of a deal if I spray-paint that bridge you live under--or have you moved up into a box?)

BYU Law FTW...

Well, there was once a Mormon on House -so...what's up with Kutner offing himself?

228

Actually, there was never a "right" to polygamous marriage in the U.S. There were simply no laws prohibiting such activity. "Right" and "lack of prohibition" are not the same thing. While certainly not as prevalent as polygamy, many ancient cultures (including some Native American tribes) allowed and recognized same-sex marriages. Just so ya know!

202-203...It's not that I doubt that lesbian or gay individuals exist at byu law (and I would know since I to to byu law), it's just I was not aware of this individual so I was initially skeptical. I certainly understand about keeping things like that a secret at byu law.

Wow! I can't believe I read that entire thread.

I should have counted the reasonable posts compared to the bitter, angry, or just plain nutcase posts - I'm thinking it would have been a close contest. At least the Mormons and friends seem to be TRYING to make sense and be respectful.

But after reading this whole thread, I'm really curious: do Mormons really do that well academically in even the top tier law schools?

And if so, if they're generally competitive intellectually, is it really fair to dismiss their closely-held religious beliefs as ludicrously stupid? Perhaps they spend all their time studying law and none of their time studying their religion. Perhaps they're just Mormons by birth. Could either of those conjectures explain the obvious paradox of smart people really accepting and believing that which is so difficult to accept and believe?

Are there equivalent numbers of ______ (insert your favorite other ludicrously stupid faith) doing well in law schools nationwide?

This entire thread has made me REALLY curious! Maybe Steven Levitt (Freakonomics) could do a study...

I am a lawyer at a Big Law firm who is a convert to the Church. At the time of my conversion (just over one year ago), my friends and family were surprised that a 'critically thinking person' would join the Church.

There is no difference between being a Mormon than having any other sort of faith. For me, it was a personal choice that I made after reading the Book of Mormon, exercising faith and praying to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true.

The Mormon Lawyer blog is just like this one - publishing content that it thinks people want read and providing an outlet for comment and discussion - for better or worse.

I would hope that any prospective law student would be trying to get into the best possible law school that they can afford... regardless of how "Mormon-friendly" it is.

Figures that even in a post talking about religion and Mormons, Elie would find a way to mention brothels and hookers.

Way to go, big guy. Your top interest in life takes center stage once again.

150 is a supressive person who will be subjected to the treatment.

The final verses of the Book of Mormon, by the prophet Moroni (Moroni 10:27-34):

*****

27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
28 I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.
29 And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.
30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

185

Spouse and myself were raised mormon, went to BYU, served missions, married in the temple, and have enormous mormon families that are still practicing. So yes, I've had more than a couple of experiences with mormons. I'm not a hater (some of my best friends are mormon, haha). But to all of the puzzled people that said to me "sure we all have these problems with the absurd doctrine that we none the less profess to be perfect, but the church has good people and great families, why would you want to leave?" I say, look around you- your families aren't happier and you aren't any more at peace. And yes, the mormons I know DO think they have all of the answers. And many of them are just plain miserable.

-166

- 237. I'm a Mormon 1L at a T14 law school. I consider myself of reasonable intelligence like my peers at this school, but I'm certainly not the smartest. While I don't think that the Mormons make up a disproportionate amount of the "smartest" people at my school, I think they fit in normally just like any other group (i.e. there will be a certain amount of smart Catholics, average Catholics, and so forth just as there will be with Mormons). Having attended BYU as an undergrad, that seems to play out again. About 1/3 of the university are pretty below average. Another 1/3 is of average intelligence, and another 1/3 is pretty smart, roughly speaking. Again, this is just based on my own limited perception. Then, you have about 1% who are just of a caliber of genius that blows my mind. I think that everyone at my law school fits in a scale that spans BYU's top 1/3, or perhaps just the top 1/4.

As for the whole discussion of "do we actually believe some strong doctrine or another." There is a strange dynamic. You have the old leaders of the church (i.e. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith) who, by all accounts, have said some very strange and profound things (this is where some commentators have asked about polygamy, the god as man theory, etc). Well, our church used to stand behind those doctrines. But today, it's not that the church has "disavowed" those old doctrines, but we certainly don't explicitly point to them as cannon anymore. (For those Mormons who are reading this, look to the fact that the church no longer publishes Teachings of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith or Machonki's Mormon Doctrine). I suppose these doctrines, while we have not reneged on them, they are most definitely on the outer limits of our beliefs. I would imagine that this is similar to how the Catholics, although they believe that the bread and wine of the sacrament literally transforms into the blood and flesh of Christ while in the stomach, probably aren't hearing that too often in your average sermon. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

So, 90% of the Mormon doctrine I can say, yeah, I believe that, it makes sense, and I feel good about it. But there is certainly 10% where it doesn't make sense to me in my limited experience. But, at the same time, if I were to reject that 10% because I simply can't believe it, by logical extension, I would have to reject all of Christianity, because it's just as fantastical. Then, that leads us to a "is there a God" debate.

Ok 240, did you really have to post passage of the BOM on ATL? Is this really the right place for that?

I'm calling you out 242. No Mormon, let alone a Mormon smart enough to go to a T14 law school, would ever spell it Machonki. That would be like a Catholic referring to the Poap, or a Jew talking about following his Rabbaye.

You were either drunk, or you're not actually a Mormon. Other than that, pretty reasonable post.

Lol, 242 here. Yeah, sorry I butchered that. I was thinking of running a google search to get it right. But I was too lazy. Perhaps I should have just said "Bruce R."

I consider LDS to be a cult, and anyone who joins to be too bizarre to take seriously. Right, Smith translated the book of mormon using his magic glasses while wearing his magical underpants. Come on! Its sad, b/c otherwise Romney would have been perfect.

- 246. Well, that's certainly reducing things to the absurd. And I don't have enough time (nor do I think anybody would want to read it) to take on each of those examples you gave about Smith. However, what you said doesn't seem to me to be any more outrageous than reducing Christianity to the absurd much in the way Elie did.

QUINN REMAINS loyal to Xenu

My favorite thing about Mormons and Prop. 8, is the fact that Mormons are verbally attacked and persecuted because of their support of prop. 8--meanwhile these same opponents of Prop. 8 state that mormons are "intolerant." Take a look in the mirror.

I am Catholic and practice my religion twice a year!

No top 10 schools? I don't understand how a 'friendly' place is all that friendly if it raises your stress level because you can't get a job. What a stupid and useless list.

No top 10 schools? I don't understand how a 'friendly' place is all that friendly if your stress level is exponentially raised because you can't get a job. What a stupid and useless list.

No top 10 schools? I don't understand how a 'friendly' place is all that friendly if your stress level is exponentially raised because you can't get a job. What a stupid and useless list.

Re: 236:

There are plenty of examples of Mormons who excel in law school and Mormon's who don't. The most accomplished Mormon attorney (IMHO) was Rex Lee. He graduated #1 in his class at Chicago, clerked for the Supreme Court and was Solicitor General under Reagan. Multiple SCOTUS Justices have declared him to be the best SCOTUS advocate ever.

Three years ago I attended a panel discussion on Rex Lee where Maureen Mahoney, Carter Phillips and Seth Waxman shared personal stories about Rex Lee. When else have these three gotten together to praise the career of a fellow SCOTUS advocate?

It's called compartmentalization, folks. Every religious person who is also an intelligent part of a normal social order separates faith from empiricism. Mormons are no more peculiar than any other religion based on mysticism (e.g., any Christian faith). Give them a break. Unless you are atheist or pure skeptic you have crazy beliefs, too. (You probably do, anyway, notwithstanding your belief or non-belief in a god.)

166 (241)

You sound a little judgmental and like you have all the answers. All the negative things you said to Mormons apply to you and by your tone your life seems miserable maybe you should still be mormon you seem to meet the description.

And I would like you to explain how Mormon's logical Fallacies are any different than any other religion.

Amen 255. The only reason why so many people don't question their mainstream Christian faith is because it's so mainstream, they never step back to think how crazy their position really is. For many people, their Christian sect is just a tradition, way of life, or culture. But they don't step back to critically examine their beliefs whereas they are more than happy to criticize the Mormons. Everybody has them:

Pentecostals: Do you really believe that the spirit is talking through you when you stand up in the middle of a congregation and start shouting nonsense? This is really the gift of tongues?

Catholics: Do you really believe that the wine and bread of the sacrament actually turns into the blood and flesh of Christ while in your stomach?

Jehovah's Witnesses: You mean to say that only 244,000 will be saved, and, no matter what, everyone else is screwed?

Well, you get the idea.

256: Yes, I can be judgmental. No, I don't think I have the answers; more importantly, I don't actively and persistently try to convince others that I have the answers and that they should believe what I believe. And actually, I have had peace and happiness ever since I left the church with my spouse-- after an agonizing, soul searching several years of trying to rationalize the many flaws. It was very hard to disappoint our families and leave all we ever knew, but it has been a rewarding decision and one of the best I've ever made. I know that is very threatening to Mormons, so they choose to believe that anyone who leaves has "lost the spirit" and must be much less happy then themselves.

All religions have flawed histories and I have been careful in both my posts to say that mormons are no better and also no worse than any other large group.

But one uncomfortabler problem for your faith (and some other religions) is that Mormons claim infalibility of both leaders and doctrine, so that makes it a lot more awkward when their doctrine, history and leaders are shown to be incorrect, or when the church has to reverse a position on something for political expedience. One example would be when Egyptologists translated the "Pearl of Great Price", and it turned out to be a funeral scroll rather than the writings of Abraham. This is less of a problem for religions that have some maleability, but more of a problem for mormons who think Joseph Smith is the mouth of God and that the Pearl of Great Price is canon.

258

All religion believe their scriptures to be the word of God not just Mormon's. Go to the South and tell people the Bible may have some mistakes and see the reaction you will get. All religions deal with those issues. Yet you single out Mormons because you had a negative experience. These stories can be said about Catholics, Baptists, Jews, and all religions.

And if you think they are no better or worse what does this mean:

"I don't think Mormons are any worse than any other group (in terms of divorce, abuse, sexism, poverty, etc.) The difference is that, despite all of this, and despite the laughably flawed doctrine, they still think they have the answers and that they ARE better people."

Either these negatives are offset by good qualities to make them just as good or bad as everyone else or you were flip-floppin in the same sentence. Saying they are the same, but not really because they are judgment and think they are right .

And your last sentence could be used to describe the left, the right, the atheiests, libretarians, Baptists, lawyers, Doctors, and most groups.

Yes, any ideological group that claims to have all of the answers and also claims infalibility is an easy target. Including anyone who claims a literal interpretation of every aspect of the Bible or that their particular leaders are infalible. That the criticism applies to more than one religion doesn't make it less legitimate. And Mormons are singled out because this particular story is about Mormons. A story about Scientology would probably inspire 8 times the scruitiny and ridicule in the commentcs.

But most people don't claim to infalibility or that they have all of the answers, including, to the best of my knowledge, most lawyers, doctors, atheiests, the left, the right and libretarians [sic].

I was only applyin the sentence about being judgment and think they are right. This description can be applied to most groups. It has nothing to do with infalliability.

No one likes judgmental religious zealots. The far Christian right, Scientologists, and Mormons are judgmental. Notice that no one has beef with Hindu and Buddhist attorneys.

258,

Awesome post. Much respect for putting that out there and sharing a real and very interesting perspective.

Wow, thanks 263!

-258 / 241 / 166

Several of these posts from Mormons hit the nail on the head. Mormonism is really a tale of 2 stories. First, they have their early history. It is filled with polygamy, polyandry, pedophilia, necromancy, racism, murder, occultism, kabbalism, Masonry, coersion, deceit, etc. This era of the church resembles the worst that religion has ever offered. The modern church has gone to great lengths to sanitize this history and keep it from members, using tactics to supress imformation that were used under communism (such as disinformation, concealment, discouragement, and altering documents). Second, there is the modern history, which I date from about 1930-present. The earlier doctrines have been abandoned. Their temple ceremonies have been changed (some completely cancelled, some just altered). They have shifted their focus to the family. They no longer focus on the scriptures that are patently fraudulent. (Though I know several of you would contest that the Book of Mormon is patently fraudulent as well.) Really, Mormons today are no different than any other Christians. They have gone mainstream. Chances are, there are more regular Christians than Mormons who know the complete early history of the Mormon church. Again, very much like the Catholic story.

Drink from my planet's slush-puppy rivers and feast on its Swedish-fish...er...fish!

Watching non-Mormon Christians criticize Mormons for the latter's crazy and nonsensical beliefs is like watching Forrest Gump criticize the kids in the Special Olympics for being stupid.
(with due credit to Barack Obama for the analogy's inspiration).

258 - You make some good points but I disagree with one: "But one uncomfortabler [sic] problem for your faith (and some other religions) is that Mormons claim infalibility [sic] of both leaders and doctrine, so that makes it a lot more awkward when their doctrine, history and leaders are shown to be incorrect, or when the church has to reverse a position on something for political expedience."

I'm a Mormon. I don't claim infallibility of either leaders or doctrine. As pointed out in other comments, Mormonism is a deeply personal religious belief. I believe that the leaders of the Church give counsel and advice and it is incumbent on members to consider the counsel given, pray about it, and then implement it in a way that they believe is correct. Not all Mormons feel this way and there are certainly plenty of judgmental Mormons around the world. However, I think it is incorrect to say that a doctrinal piece of the Mormon story is blind obedience to the Church's leaders.

Contrary to your opinion, one of the doctrinal principles that has long been established and followed by mainstream Mormonism is that, "if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray." Church history has revealed many instances where members of the Church (including Church leaders) made mistakes or were simply wrong. I'll re-emphasize that Mormons believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect but that the gospel is administered by imperfect mortals here on the earth.

I welcome discussions such as this. But I do tire of getting labeled as someone who blindly follows Church leaders. I believe what I believe because that is what I believe. I do not believe what I believe because someone else told me that is what I should believe. I think that most (but maybe not all Mormons) feel similarly. But who knows, I obviously know nothing.

I"m agnostic, and really don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have a few observations:

1- I assume the people who are upset with mormons for Prop 8 positions are also in favor of letting any and all polygamist marry whomever they desire, including multiple spouses, correct? If not, then why not?

2-I lived in New Orleans during Katrina, and can say with first hand knowledge that the mormon church was one of the first organization to arrive, and provided substantial aid. This caught my attention so much that I looked into the humanitarian affairs of the mormon church and was stunned at how much help/aid they offer around the world. Aboslutely mind bottling......check it out some time. In my opinion, any organization offering that much help can't be ALL bad, even if I disagree with their doctrine (and yes, I have had the "discussions").

3-It's comical that people laugh at the mormons because their beliefs are crazy. Now, I can do this because I believe ALL your christian beliefs are crazy. But for other christians to laugh at mormons is really funny. Afterall, it is completely normal that a virgin gave birth to a magical baby, the baby grew up and raised people from the dead and waled on water; that the baby was eventually killed and came back to life; that Moses parted the Red Sea and talked to a bush; that a man lived inside a whale; ...yeah.....mormons are crazy but you other believers are completely sane. LOL I guess angels and prophets are okay 2000 years ago, but not in the 19th century- where is the logic there???

Just a few observations from a dude who is apparently going to hell.

266 -- You make some great points, but I disagree on the Swedisf-fish fish. I will use gummy fish on my planet.

If this hits 300 posts then the Mormon church is true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least that sounds like as good a reason as any other to believe it!

Mormons only make up 2% of the population of California, they're not the ones to blame for passing Prop. 8....Californians are!

Response to 258

You said

"However, I think it is incorrect to say that a doctrinal piece of the Mormon story is blind obedience to the Church's leaders."

I guess my problem with this is what is doctrine and what is not? Mormons always fall back on "oh its not doctrine" when some prior practice or belief becomes uncomfortable.

For example President Hinckly using that line when discussing the "as man is God once was, as God is man may become" teaching. We all grew up with it. We all understood it. We all believed it. It was not some little couplet.

If you are honest you will have to admit that there is heavy pressure to not question or crticize "the brethren' starting at a young age. One of the first songs a child will learn in Primary is "follow the Prophet. (what a scary little ditty)

In the Church the most highly regarded quality is obedience to Priesthood authority. Everyone knows that you never question a leader or his decisions. You never bring up a uncomfortable question in meetings
Everyone in church is constantly reminded not to criticize the brethren.

The thing is both you and I know this. We can argue forever if this is doctrine or not. However we both come from the same culture and we both know that questioning the brethren (murmuring, evil speaking) is a quick ticket to the fringe.

273 is spot on! Anyone on this board that is an LDS church member KNOWS that the idea that you can disagree with the leaders is a sham choice at best. Even if applicable, it is only so to trivialities. I don't know of one member who has disagreed with the prophet on anything of significance that hasn't either been informally ostrecized or formally disciplined. The way this choice really works is that if you disagree with the prophet, pray about it . . . unitl you get the answer that he was correct. Until then, you are wrong! Religionists are masters at the craft of coersion, and Mormons may be, well how has this board said it, "at the top of their class."

I always laugh because Catholics preach Infallibility, but none of them believe it. Mormons preach against Infallibility, but they all do believe it! Funny world.

It creeps ever closer to the mystykal 300! =-o

235--It's me, Mrs. Bulletproof.

No one outside of my close network of friends at BYU knew that I have same-sex attraction. There are literally hundreds of people with same sex-attraction at BYU (not necessarily at BYU Law, of course). These individuals realize that (i) this is a struggle they'll have to face their entire lives, (ii) contrary to Nietzsche’s sexual ethics, giving into any and every sexual impulse is not “right” and (iii) obeying the commandment to remain morally clean will require their extraordinary effort (and God knows that).

However, just like countless men and women give into their sexual impulses before marriage, so too do gay BYU co-eds give into their sexual impulses, at times, and (x) eventually transfer to another school and leave the Church, (y) hide it so they can continue to get cheap tuition until graduation and then leave the Church or (z) repent.

I could deny a God, so that I wouldn’t be “held back” by His commandments, but I want a life with Him more than I want to give into the way I’ve "been built" by Him.

With His help, I came out of a top 50 school (not within the last few years for those trying to figure out who I am), debt free, and, now, making $160k a year in the worst economic climate since the early 80’s and, arguably, since the 30’s.

268-

I am glad you have found not only meaning in your faith, but also, freedom to pick and choose which aspects of the faith have meaning to you and which you can reject. I'm personally a skeptic but for those who find peace through their faith, I can respect that.

You somewhat recharacterize my language to make my points seem much less tolerant and more critical. I never labeled anyone of "blindly following" church leaders, for example.

That said, whether you personally believe that your church leaders are fallible and the doctrine is imperfect, doesn't change the fact that church's official position is that the leaders are infallible and so is the doctrine. The official church position is that apparent doctrinal inaccuracies were due to our own human lack of comprehension, rather than any imperfection with the doctrine.

I also disagree with your suggestion that there is a great deal of individual freedom. Dissent simply is not tolerated. I was at BYU when several prominent members were very publically excommunicated for expressing dissenting or even simply non-canonical opinions. For example, Margaret Toscano was first warned, then excommunicated, for publishing articles and speaking about the concept of a female deity. Her writings were not critical of the church and even somewhat compatible with official doctrine, but her divergent belief was not tolerated. Mormons have got to be one of the few western religions that routinely excommunicates its members for heresy.

And lack of dissent doesn't just apply to esoteric, intellectual issues. It is also present culturally. For example, while individual members may quietly choose to reject some official church teachings in their own personal life as you suggest, my experience is that there is no public discussion. Many women may decide to work outside the home despite being commanded (yes, commanded is the correct word) by the church leaders not to, and people may quietly disagree with this commandment as sexist, among other things, but no one could speak in church, teach a class, or publish an article in any way questioning the validity or inspiration behind this commandment. The reason for this is not because the church is so horribly repressive and evil, but because the leaders are infalible and so any form of even gentle public questioning on this question is apostacy.

-258

273 and 274 (probably the same person)--you are boring. There are other boards you can write on (that no one will read, which I suspect is happening here anyway).

The mormon readers to this post don't care what you have to say. You're not going to convince them of anything, especially with how poorly you write.

The rest of us can't even follow what you're saying, which at the least makes us more curious to know what all the stink is about, probably the opposite reaction to what you're going for (again, another function of your poor drafting).

278's post goes for 277 too. YAWN already. Go someplace else. Pithy, funny comments people! Short, pithy and funny.

If the long pause in comments is so that someone else can write a book on why they left the mormon church, I'm going to become mormon.

Sorry, it was long. Some joke about having 235/ 276 give me a call for some hot-mormon-girls-making-$160k-action would be more in line with this board's style.

-277

@ 278/279 - Agreed! Yet yours aren't funny either? That makes you sound like a d-bag defender! Now that's funny!

300......almost......there!......Slowly.....closer......to.......the........truth!.........Ready........to........give.......up..........drinking........and.........monogomy!

Discussing Mormon beliefs in short, pithy, funny comments is like trying to limit a SCOTUS brief to 4-letter words.

Just doin' my part to keep the ball rollin' toward 3-0-0

Why won't my posts actually post?

Why won't my posts actually post?

Hey, why would mormons go to a school outside Mormodor?

Why won't my posts actually post?

Why won't my posts actually post?

Your posts won't post by diviine intervention, which forces you to make multiple posts inquiring why. It is all part of a grand scheme to bring the tally ever closer to 300!

Hear tell there's a vault full of secret stuff at LDS headquarters that disproves Mormonism. Do I still get my planet?

Either way, you have just become a pawn, moving us closer to the ***truth*** of 300! Oh no! I am also a victim! Damn you mormons!

This story had a good run and a lot of discussion, but its time has passed.

I guess readers will not be able to rely on the empirical truth that 300 comments make this religion true.

Readers will need to decide if there is a God in Heaven and whether he's provided a way of finding him.

They should come to the realization that God isn't hiding.

Just that He needs you to be ready for Him when he leads you to the answers.

Many millions have discovered that He is willing to shine light into the darkness.

Can I take one of Xenu's DC-9s to my planet now?

A belief that God's children can't find the truth in this life, and know for a certainty that it is, in fact, the truth, is really a scary thought. I'd like to believe I'd find my way into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a hundred times before I'd give into the hopelessness.

########Children, I-AM-THE-GREAT-300! I told you that I would reveal the truth at 300. While this may seem confusing to your simple minds, I was only testing you. I am just the physical manifestation of the even greater 400! Once you have reached 400, all truth will be revealed! I mean it this time.########

Lawyers are nerds.

Onward to 400! I want to hear the truth!

Speaking with a voice from the dust, my great, great...great gransdon Steve Young has a J.D. and a Superbowl Ring...

biotch...

280, if you found the ex-mormon testimonials too long and boring, I'm afraid the tedium of a mormon church service (weekly, three hours long) is going to be more than you can stand.

That's the best you got 306? Go home.

Is this article suggesting MoJoes should choose TTT to be by a TTTemple? Great logic! On par with the logic of most TTThumpers.

By the way everyone, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's only true church on Earth.

Everyone's invited.