GW is still better than UDC.

Actually, this year Florida Coastal is Ranked #1.

For Brooklyn Law School,US News ranked them based on LSAT scores, etc. for the full time students only. And Brooklyn is not included in the part time rankings at all? It seems Brooklyn is overranked because of this error. Did Brooklyn report to US News that it had no part-time program, and no part-time students?

first!!! wgwag

FYI, ATL, you got the 20 tie wrong. According to WSJ it's Wash U, 20. BU, 20. Emory, 20.

Minn. is tied for 23.

Alabama ahead of UGA! Good job Dean White! I'll be sure to write that check for your miserable law school now.

Penn State students are the clear winners. Tuition is next to nothing, and it comes up better than Michigan, Duke, and Georgetown.

Go Indiana!!

-T23 3L

UVA:

We accept 40% in-state even though we're 100% independent of state funding. That's how we DO, baby! Rankings be damned! The state of Virginia is just brimming w/ top talent, especially in western Virginia, so it's alllll good.

In other words, ATL had nothing to do with this story either then or now. Is ATL now the Drudge of BLOGS?

Emory!

Kind of doesn't mean a damn thing when you are quaking in your boots waiting for a salary cut or a lay-off. If whipping out the ranking of your law school saves you from either of those fates, let us know.

What I don't get is how Minnesota lingers around Top 20. Really, what type of legal influence does Minnesota have? I don't get it. Who the hell wants to go to such a miserable place for law school (don't give me that it's beautiful early fall late spring).

Go Boalt! Three cheers for Edley!

WTF happened to CU Boulder Law?

I went there, great school. It was never about the ranking but still, -13 are you kidding me?

What could possibly account for such a drop?

Dear GW Law,

Fix this.

GW Alumni.

In law as in football -- Penn State and Michigan State running neck-and-neck.

13 is right. I once whipped out my ranking during a call-back and was politely asked to leave.

I CANNOT believe that GW fell to 28 from 20! Dean Lawrence - GET RID OF THE PART TIME PROGRAM!

Distraught GW Stud

You needed TaxProfBlog to "calculate" the drops and rises?

14: I'm not from Minnesota and have no connection to the state. But, it is beautiful and has very vibrant progressive cities. There are far worse places to go to law school -- New Haven would be one example.

6 - you're incorrect. WashU is #19, not #20.

Ditto, 17.

- Another upset GW Alum

Where is Washington University, in Seattle?

Washington and Lee is a joke.

UVA2L

13: Oh yeah, good point. St. Louis is another place I would never want to go to law school.

#16 Re: CU Law

My guess is a big per student spending drop. 2 potential causes:
1) maybe the new building expenses factored into the PSE these last few years
2) The legislature is once again completely screwing higher education in Colo, and it could have led to a big spending drop for the law school.

just guesses though.

That's solid, Emory. Great job Dean Partlett, Admissions, etc...

- Emory Alum

6,

reading comprehension . . . EPIC FAIL!

haahah suck it vandy

I need some advice guys. I've narrowed it down to either GW (full ride) or American (no money). Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

~ Confused Applicant

This GW thing is horrendous.

I did very well my 1L year at GW and considered transferring to GULC but decided against it b/c the rankings difference was negligible.

BOY WAS I WRONG

YHS
CCNB
DMNPV
CG

Ha. These rankings are retarded. I didn't go to GW but I would be pissed about this if I did. Do the rankings take into account geography? I mean, how the hell does a school like Indiana, or Iowa, or Minnesota, or even Emory, beat out schools like GW, or even Fordham. To me, they can't compare. When I was going to school, I would have chosen Brooklyn over any of this. Who would want to go there? They need to revise the system.

CU Boulder was overrated if for no other reason that the Colorado legal market sucks. Great place to live and a good school but none of that matters if good jobs are not available.

Will they bother to update the rankings next year? Since no law school graduate this year actually gets to start working until next year, why bother.

GW @ 28???

I actually turned DOWN money at slightly lower ranked schools to go to GW because I thought it was bona fide T20. WTF GW!???

That's the University of Pennsylvania, not Penn State....

FYI 6, you can't read and don't understand how lists work.

Thank you, Building a Better Legal Profession, for ruining Stanford. Honorable mentions to Dean Kramer.

#4 -- How could they miss Brooklyn Law School's evening division? It is huge, with a lot of low GPA/LSAT people?

BBBJ
DATY
GFE

34 = subtle Berkeley troll

GW @ 28???

I actually turned DOWN money at slightly lower ranked schools to go to GW because I thought it was bona fide T20. WTF GW!???

DUKE!

There is nothing wrong with going to SMU.

how come gulc didn't get hit b/c of the PT thing? that's weird that it would have NO effect, while it slams GW 8 places!

10 - You're joking, right? There are certain things you have to do to keep the law school affiliated with the University. What, do you want to break off and be known as having attended Virginia College of Law? I guess that would be an alternative, but where would you put the campus?

THOSE IN TOP 50,

DON'T LET YOUR FRIENDS WORK AT LATHAM. LATHAM IS ONLY FOR TTT.

35 I agree. How the F is Arizona in the top 50, for example? I know Loyola Los Angeles doesn't get a lot of love around here, but if you are aware of the number of wel-known lawyers that come out of that school, I'm surpised so many school are ranked higher. Even if Loyola is regional, tons of employers know that the top students there would have been top in any Tier 1 or Top 20 school, so how does places like Utah, Arizona, Colorado rank higher when the Southern California legal market is a lot more important and influential.

RANKINGS BLOW.

how come gulc didn't get hit b/c of the PT thing? that's weird that it would have NO effect, while it slams GW 8 places!

seton hall dropped 11; there goes that $495k starting salary

Vandy > GULC

LATHAM word of the day: RANKING

Ranking is an artificial and inaccurate assessment of performance followed by a rapid fall out of top 20 of BigLaw down to where one belongs based on a true assesment of its leadership and prestige.

32 -

24 here. Granted I went to GW Law so I'm a bit biased, but I'd take the full ride to GW and run from American. That begs the question, though, of how you got $$ from GW and not from American.

26 = GW 0L

Every UVA student I have met is racist and pops their collar.

Should I go to FIU (5k/year) or GW (free).

~ Curious Applicant

why are people saying these were leaked. The latest rankings were on the newstands in bookstores last weekend

32 -

24 here. Granted I went to GW Law so I'm a bit biased, but I'd take the full ride to GW and run from American. That begs the question, though, of how you got $$ from GW and not from American.

GW Alumni,

Sorry that your schools is more concerned about greedily feeding itself with PT $$$ rather than improving the quality of its student body.

Warmly,

Not a GW Alum

Interesting that the inclusion of the part time rankings had virtually no affect on Georgetown or American's rankings, but resulted in GW dropping 8 spots.

GW is still #2 for part time programs, so their PT numbers can't be that bad.

why are people saying these were leaked. The latest rankings were on the newstands in bookstores last weekend

Washington and Lee, UC-Davis, and North Carolina are all in the 30s... that really shows you how bad things get: if you can't make it at a top and mid-tier school, you end up at these scab schools.

56 - no, that does not beg the question.

Wow, US News really Lathamed GW

Where's Cooley? I turned down a full ride from UCLA because they were T14 in one of the rankings.

so whose leg did berkeley hump to leapfrog so many spots in just 2-3 years?

Cardozo at 49? Where is Latham going to recruit now? Onlything left is New York Law School.

There is nothing wrong with going to SMU.

6: How about a little lesson in reading. Look at the beginning of the list. It starts 1. Yale, thus Minnesota is tied at 20 because the list says: 20. Minnesota (tie). Follow the form of the list.

35 is an idiot.

Where's Cooley? I turned down a full ride from UCLA because they were T14 in one of the rankings.

Well, we certainly won't be recruiting at GW next year.

V50 Hiring Partner

Cardozo to top 50? It lost Crane to Michigan, and there are no NY jobs.

54-are you kiddding? gulc >>>> vandy in every single way. plus dc >>>> nashville

In my experience, GW was always overrated. Moreover, Georgetown and Cornell do not merit such high placement on the list. In my opinion, Texas and Vandy produce better law graduates. The only accurate information on these rankings are the top 3 schools. Every other placement is suspect.

Where's Cooley? I turned down a full ride from UCLA because they were T14 in one of the rankings.

# 63 -- The inclusion of the part-time numbers did not hurt Brooklyn Law School's ranking BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T TELL U.S. NEWS ABOUT THEIR PART TIME STUDENTS.

GW -- Take a lesson from this.

I go to W&M and we had someone transfer "up" to GW.
Ouch

yawn. wake me up when the Cooley rankings come out. GW would never get rid of its part time program. Each class of PTrs represents $18 million in tuition. Get money, get paid.

I turned down Berkley for the University of Pennsylvania Quakers, shouldn't that mean Upenn should be ranked higher than them?

Serious question guys: Phoenix Online Law School (full price) vs. GW (full ride).

~ Confounded Applicant

There is nothing wrong with going to SMU.

Emory > Vandy

Word of the day: G-dubbed - to fall precipitously from grace.

"I was on top of the world until I got fired yesterday - my boss really G-dubbed me good."

81 lol

UVA really needs to stop letting in so many in-staters. As an alum, it pisses me off that I give money so it can be "financed without ties to the state" and then they let in-staters drag the rankings down with their crappy LSAT scores.

That said, I just enjoyed a good laugh with a couple people in my office over Penn being ranked higher. Riiiggghht.

35,

"Do the rankings take into account geography? I mean, how the hell does a school like Indiana, or Iowa, or Minnesota, or even Emory, beat out schools like GW, or even Fordham....They need to revise the system."

That's a pretty moronic comment. Revise the system? Yeah, they need to pay less attention to the quality of the students, professors, peer reviews, etc. and give extra points for schools in "cool" cities. Believe it or not, a lot of smart people intentionally avoided big cities to experience something new, save money, or live in warm weather for a change. And for the record, Atlanta is a bigger city than you think. Population is 5 million...yeah its really spread out, but the downtown area is still bigger than Boston.

I think GW should just be called "W" now.

I HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU, BUT THE CHART IS A FAKE. iT GOES CARDOZO (49), WITH NO TIE, TO (51) THEN (52). THERE'S NO 50. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A TOP 50 WITH ONLY 49 SCHOOLS! IT'S RIDICULOUS! AND, YES, I AM SHOUTING!

20. 28. Next year 25. WHO CARES? Does anyone really think this is going to affect anything? This is exactly why these rankings are so stupid.

Cardozo to top 50? It lost Crane to Michigan, and there are no NY jobs. Is this sustainable?

Minnesota has 19 Fortune 500 companies. It's not New York, obviously, but it's not like it's in the middle of nowhere.

yawn. wake me up when the Cooley rankings come out. GW would never get rid of its part time program. Each class of PTrs represents $18 million in tuition. Get money, get paid.

# 92 -- SMU is tied at 49. No fake.

I wish there was a massive shake up. It's sooooooooooooo boring.

Tulane > Cardozo yesssss

Its only a couple years after applying and going to law school that I fully appreciate how moronic it is to get worked up about ranking fluctuations. GW will go between 20 and 30 year by year. Thats how it goes. Get used to it.

69 here and , btw, 69th is the new FIRST

The numbers tell the story:

GW medians: 167 / 3.75
GW NLJ 250 placement for the class of '08: 44%

Iowa medians: 161 / 3.62
Iowa NLJ 250 placement for the class of '08: that's funny

I get that GW is toilet, but this strikes me as borderline bizarre. USNWR has flamed us all ...

@ Partner Emeritus: You know, as well as the rest of the legal academic and BigLaw community knows, that Stanford no longer belongs in the top 3. There appearance in the top 3 is nothing more than a testament to the power of the status quo and old perceptions being hard to shake.

This is now the second time in three years UVA has landed tied for 10th in the rankings. Looks like a trend.

i got into GW last year with a 159. clearly, that's why they dropped 8. TTT students

84 may be joking, but Phoenix Online is the real deal.

Phoenix Online part time program ranks several slots higher than the program at Widener.

93, students choose law schools largely based on rankings --> quality of admits is the biggest part of the us news formula that schools have any control over --> GWs admit numbers could get even worse --> GW continues to fall in rankings --> the rankings matter leaving Latham as the only v100 that will recruit at GW.

The merger with Penn State worked out well for Penn. The larger number of applicants gave it a boost when it had been on the verge of dropping out of the T10.

What a bunch of shit. Davis is an overranked TTT.

92 - take a couple xanax and a second look at the rankings. Cardozo and SMU are tied for 49. That's why the rankings go from 49 to 51.

So the brilliant business minds at US News are not letting people onto its own website until tomorrow ($10 for premium access) to see the rankings, yet will assist the WSJ blog in publishing the list on its site today.

Congratulations for Arizona's drop go to:

Dean Birmingham, who has been an utter failure in Career Services, with at least three 2007 graduates still looking for work.

AND

Dean Massaro for allowing her to keep working!

Boo to both of you for your lack of efforts.

The Internet is a kind of hell!

Wow. 100 comments in less than half an hour.

I'm announcing that I'm starting a new blog based purely on law school rankings. I will announce a new ranking system every day that will leave the top 15 mostly in order for the next 20 years and I will play at the margins by reversing schools one or two spots each day.

The website will be called www.myrankingsmakememoneywhileyoustupidlywaitonmycompletelyuselessrankings.com

Do you think there will be interest?

i know it would sell less magazines, but they should just put the schools in a band, that would be more accurate and we wouldn't need to have these schools meaninglessly swapping spots every year

it's pretty clearly recognized it goes:
Y
HS
CCN
MVPB
NDCG
TU
and so and and so forth

I take it people think 8 was joking? If not, I can't believe he/she's not taking more crap for thinking Penn = Penn State (not that I would go to either)

Go HLS! That "tie" was insulting.

93 is TTT

# 114 -- Its been done: http://www.lawschool100.com/

46: Guys at my high school used to talk about how Duke was in and out of the top 10 all the time. It was no big deal. It did that before I got in, while I was there, and has continued to do so with remarkable consistency since I left. It's still no big deal.

Hon. David Levi (Ret.): Place a SCOTUS Clerk, and then come talk to me.

--Devil in Disguise

W&L is a TTT on the decline!!!! Suck on that!

116: you are the reason these annoying schticks exist

speaking of which, GW might want to try to sue under the theory of promissory estoppel.

There is nothing wrong with going to SMU and then working at Locke Lord Houston.

3500 sq ft wife and a lexis

\m/

SUFFOLK IS T14!!!

SUFFOLK IS T14!!!

That's a good point 116, but one question: if I relied on 8's promise that Penn State = UPenn would I have an argument for promissory estoppel?

Guys at my high school reasonably relied on promises that Penn State = UPenn all the time. It was no big deal.

PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL UPENN STATE FRAT STUD

84 may be joking, but Phoenix Online is the real deal.

Phoenix Online part time program ranks several slots higher than the program at Widener.

I take it people think 8 was joking? If not, I can't believe he/she's not taking more crap for thinking Penn = Penn State (not that I would go to either)

75, 90,

Just saying, it seems odd. Don't take offense if you go to Emory. Atlanta is a nice town; Buckhead is awesome; great restaurants; whatever. I'm just saying, geography is a big factor. In New York and DC, there are just SO many more opportunities. Chill out, people. Now you're going to say, "WHAT OPPORTUNITIES, MORON, you IDIOT!" Well, experience in DC is obviously unparalleled (I'm a GULC alum) - so many internships in DOJ, agencies, administration, Congress, US Attorney's Office, courts, etc. Sorry, Atlanta can't even come close to providing the kinds of opportunities as far as legal jobs. And regarding a school like Fordham, Atlanta obviously can't come close to New York. Thus, GW and Fordham are in my permanent top 20. Anyway, my comment was directed more at Iowa and Minnesota. Call me close-minded for not wanting to go near either of those. HA, I COULD CARE LESS!!!

Top 100:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. NYU
6. Berkeley
6. Chicago
8. Penn
9. Michigan
10. Duke
10. Northwestern
10. UVA
13. Cornell
14. GULC
15. UCLA
15. Texas
17. Vanderbilt
18. USC
19. WUSTL
20. BU
20. Emory
20. Minnesota
23. Indiana - Bloomington
23. Illinois
23. Notre Dame
26. BC
26. Iowa
28. William and Mary
28. GWU
30. Fordham
30. Alabama
30. UNC
30. U of Washington
30. Washington and Lee
35. OSU
35. Davis
35. Georgia
35. Wisconsin-Madison
39. Hastings
40. Wake Forest
41. BYU
41. GMU
43. Arizona
43. Maryland
45. American
45. Tulane
45. UC Boulder
45. Utah
49. SMU
49. Cardozo
51. U of Florida
52. Florida State
52. U of Cincinnati
52. UConn
55. Arizona State
55. Case Western
55. Pepperdine
55. Kentucky
59. Houston
59. Tennessee
61. Brooklyn
61. Lewis & Clark
61. San Diego
61. Villanova
65. Baylor
65. Georgia State
65. Penn State
65. Temple
65. U of Kansas
65. U of Missouri
71. Loyola LA
71. Miami
71. Oklahoma
71. Pitt
75. Louisiana State
75. UNLV
77. Chicago-Kent
77. Rutgers Camden
77. Seattle
77. Seton Hall
77. Denver
77. New Mexico
77. Oregon
77. Richmond
85. Santa Clara
85. SUNY-Buff
87. DePaul
87. Indiana-Indianapolis
87. Loyola Chicago
87. Marquette
87. Rutgers Newark
87. St. John's
87. South Carolina
94. Catholic
94. Northeastern
94. St Louis
94. Arkansas Fayetteville
98. Louisville
98. USF
100. Gonzaga
100. Hofstra
100. UMaine

I have pissed on UVA every time I have been there.

Movements in top 100 here:

http://lawschoolheadlines.com/?p=226

This has to be great news for Georgetown. They now will have a complete grip on the DC market.

Way to go Emory

102 - Iowa is the only public law school in the state. Therefore, it tries to admit somewhere around half in-state residents, which in a state with barely over 3 million people will naturally skew the numbers somewhat downward. That doesn't change the fact that the law school provides a great education and that I'd take the top 25% from Iowa over the top 25% from GW any day of the week. According to NALP, so would the "nearly 400 hiring partners, hiring committee members, associate interviewers and recruiting professionals" they surveyed. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that an Iowa grad can figure out that a larger portion of law students in a state school located in the Midwest are going to choose small firms over NLJ 250 firms than students going to a private college on the East Coast.

http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

This has to be great news for Georgetown. They now will have a complete grip on the DC market.

51 -- you must be crazy.

103 I highly doubt that a Stanford alum would misuse the word "there".

Just sayin.

LOL. Like any of it matters. You'll toil away in misery for the rest of your life no matter where your school is ranked.

Man, I sure am glad I went in-house.

Movements in the top 100 here:

http://lawschoolheadlines.com/?p=226

108- Upenn has never been close to dropping out of the T10. In fact its more highly regarded in the Big Law markets than Chicago or Berkeley.

However, if you wanted to go into academia, then Chicago or Berkeley is the place for you.

130 - Emory Alum living in DC here and what people don't realize is that Atlanta hosts the regional office for almost all of those agencies, SEC, Fed Reserve Bank, FTC, DOJ, -- and is a state capitol. Emory with its field placement programs has people in all of these places, so while it may not be DC or New York, the intelligence and experience of its students can and will exceed Brooklyn or Fordham and GW, (no one is claiming it gonna beat a NYU, Columbia or even Gtown, but that is based on faculty, a student stats, not location).

I voided my bowels once in the first floor bathroom of the David Harrison Law Grounds and forgot to flush.

130 - Emory Alum living in DC here and what people don't realize is that Atlanta hosts the regional office for almost all of those agencies, SEC, Fed Reserve Bank, FTC, DOJ, -- and is a state capitol. Emory with its field placement programs has people in all of these places, so while it may not be DC or New York, the intelligence and experience of its students can and will exceed Brooklyn or Fordham and GW, (no one is claiming it gonna beat a NYU, Columbia or even Gtown, but that is based on faculty, a student stats, not location).

130 - Emory Alum living in DC here and what people don't realize is that Atlanta hosts the regional office for almost all of those agencies, SEC, Fed Reserve Bank, FTC, DOJ, -- and is a state capitol. Emory with its field placement programs has people in all of these places, so while it may not be DC or New York, the intelligence and experience of its students can and will exceed Brooklyn or Fordham and GW, (no one is claiming it gonna beat a NYU, Columbia or even Gtown, but that is based on faculty, a student stats, not location).

Thanks Partner Emeritus....

31 agreed....there trolling this past year has been insufferable.

The UCLA/Texas, Vandy, USC pecking order is as it should be.

CU doesn't belong in the top 50 and never did. It's a joke. Btw it's not money. CUZ gets less than 10% funding from the state and the cuts haven't taken place yet anyways.

Also 131 please don't do that.

108- Upenn has never been close to dropping out of the T10. In fact its more highly regarded in the Big Law markets than Chicago or Berkeley.

However, if you wanted to go into academia, then Chicago or Berkeley is the place for you.

Why no love for SMU or Locke Lord?

20,
I think some students, who go to schools with a part time program, wish it was dropped. However, I think they tend to bring in $.

Another joke: I can't fathom a single reason why anyone would take IUB over ND or IL. But there they all are, tied at 23!

Alabama at 30? GMFB.

I voided my bowels once in the first floor bathroom of the David Harrison Law Grounds and forgot to flush.

Fucking UConn dropped 6 places and didn't make the T15 PT programs. Place was ranked in the mid 30s when I applied. Nice fucking job, Jeremy Paul.

142: i must disagree.
i think chicago is definitely better at placing for firms than upenn

Green Eggs and SMU.

Suck it, GULC.

35 = biggest loser post on this board, EVER.

20 to 28? F*&# my life.

Someone should say something good, bad, or indifferent about NYU staying in 5th for a second year rather than falling further or moving back up to fourth with (or ahead of) Columbia.

I went to Washington and Lee undergrad and had a lovely college experience there.

UPenn's a state school right?

139: You're right. Stanford to "1" based on their ability to use "there" and "their" correctly. Also based on their decline in faculty.

U Texas = guaranteed 3500 sq ft wife and a gift certificate to Cracker Barrel

35,

I agree, some of these are like wtf.

164,

3500 sqaure feet seems like a pretty large wife. I guess with enough gift certificates to Crcker Barrel that's bound to happen though...

I wonder if US News changed the lawyer/judge assessment methodology in order to avoid some kind of shake-up. Texas is #13 in the academic score and only .1 behind #13 for the lawyer/judge score. Either Texas drawing level with GULC or maybe Stanford dipping below 3rd would be the kind of thing USNews wanted to prevent.

Where is Regent? That's a well-rounded school

Why isn't Tulsa in the Top 100?

142/149: what are you smoking? In Chicago, certainly, Chicago places miles ahead of UPenn. On the west coast, Berkeley and Chicago BOTH do way better than UPenn. Never worked or lived in New York, so can't speak to things there, but three of the five biggest markets (Chicago, LA, and San Francisco) have a strong preference for Chicago and Berkeley over UPenn, so you fail.

These rankings in a few years will be just as important as nursing school rankings.

I can't find Brooklyn's part-time program in the rankings -- was it left by the side of the road in White Plains?

GW just announced it has dropped its Part-Time program. GW to tied for 22 next year!!!! Right back where it belongs...remaining a festering TTT and tied for the worst law school in DC (tied with GTown, Catholic, American, and UDC).

130 AND ALL YOU OTHER MORONS OUT THERE, THE EXPRESSION IS "i COULDN'T CARE LESS." NOT, "i COULD CARE LESS." TAKE 3 SECONDS TO THINK OF WHAT THAT DIFFERENCE MEANS. WHILE IN ANY EVENT NO ONE REALLY CARES WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT, THE FACT THAT YOU COULD CARE LESS MAKES IT EVEN LESS MEANINGFUL, IF THAT'S EVEN POSSIBLE. IDIOTS!

NY TO 190K!

Look at the numbers --- seems like GW's student/faculty ratio is what hurt it most. All the other numbers are comparable to where it should have been at #19-20ish. But --- student/faculty ratio is 15 instead of 11 or 12, where it should be.

DEAN LAWRENCE --- what are you going to do about this?

HIRE MORE FACULTY! Simple.

please!

* Boalt (Berkeley) cannot be taken seriously as a T6.
* If you want Columbia over Chicago, fine. Some agree, some disagree. But NYU over Chicago? Give me a fucking break.
* Stanford the Law School continues to be overrated but it will never change because it has ties to the overall institution of Stanford which is a freaking amazing place.
* With the way things are going, Michigan is lucky to be at #9
* The three way tie for the #10 spot does no one any favors. The lower rung of the T14 is much harder to sort out than the T6. Talk about a wasted release year. Three very different schools in the #10 spot--the tie is pointless.
* Frankly, I think Northwestern might deserve to push ahead--flack from the 2-year option aside, I hear nothing but good things about that place. Not only good, but upward momentum.
* If Georgetown law were in any other city, it would be 10 spots lower. Nothing new there. Just an observation.

Northeastern down 6 to 94. Was number 77 my 1L year. Most expensive law school in Boston.

3rd tier for 2010! Let's show those Suffolk fucks how stupid we can be!

Unemployed Northeastern 2007!

35-

I know this may sound strange, but there are many people who would prefer not to live in the "great" Northeast.

115 is the credited response.

Cardozo to 49 in 30 years. Can't wait till it beats out Fordham. If career services could only get their act together...

ROLL TIDE!!! We broke into the top 50 when I was there and have been climbing ever since. My JD just keeps getting more and more valuable.

89 --

You've inspired me. I too am going to cease donating to UVA UNTIL THEY CANCEL THEIR RETARDED 40% IN-STATE POLICY. There's absolutely NO reason for it, and I don't wanna hear stupid excuses like "well, it maintains good relations with the main university." Screw the main university. What are they gonna do -- somehow boycott the law school? Not invite the dean out to dinner?

Interestingly, the new dean said last year that he intends to put UVA in the top 5. He's going in the wrong direction.

"He declared his desire to use the financial independence won by outgoing Dean John C. Jeffries, Jr. as a means to move
the Law School into the Top Five of the national rankings."

http://www.lawweekly.org/pdf_archives/20080229.pdf

For those that are interested in CU's drop, my brief story:

I live in co. I applied to CU and Emory among others in January. Three weeks later I get an 80,000 scholarship offer from Emory. Yesterday I get an offer to be on CU's wait list... My credentials are in at least the top 25% at Emory and way out of CU's league. I wouldn't have gone to CU anyway, but maybe they should at least try to recruit quality students.

We don't smoke
We don't chew

Suffolk Suffolk Su-folk U!

108- Upenn has never been close to dropping out of the T10. In fact its more highly regarded in the Big Law markets than Chicago or Berkeley.
--

You must be joking. That is all.

I AGREE WITH 174. YOU ARE ALL MORONS AND IDIOTS. WHETHER YOUR SCHOOL IS 1, 10, 30, WHO CARES. I COULD CARE LESS! LET'S MOVE ON WITH OUR LIVES AND TALK ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE BEING FIRED AND HOW MISERABLE ALL OF OUR LIVES ARE.

Seriously, GW is a top 20 school, and the profession knows it. Enough with the freakout.

176: nyu over chicago is ridiculous? unless you want to be an academic (and even if you do) that's a pretty big statement

183 - you're retarded. It's obvious that you wouldn't have gone there, and they are doing the right thing US News-wise by rejecting you. Enjoy Vandy.

UVA and zombie bowel movements, perfect together.

Why all the hate for SMU?

32 - Take the ride. No question.

Apparently, GW's precipitous fall was based on inclusion for the first time ever of PT prgm admissions data. Does anyone else find it rather perplexing, if not criminal, that GULC, which is known to game the rankings via its part-time prgm to the same extent that GW does, did not fall out of the top 14? I simply can't square how GW would fall 8 spots to GULC's zero if the perceived basis for GW's fall is correct. And no, I don't go to GW.

These rankings, as always, try to do the impossible. Can you really say, for example, that Iowa is better than Ohio State simply because USNWR uses some jacked up formula to come up an arbitrary number? There are smart people and there are tards at every school. Most people go to the school where they live by, and that's the end of it. I've known a few Harvard grads, btw, who were given a chance at a V15 firm simply because of Harvard and ended up being a total waste.

anybody that chooses harvard over stanford is crazy

The rankings should eliminate entirely opinions of academics. Who gives a shit what another school's professors think of your school? You want a job, so lawyers and judges are the only people whose opinions matter. Even businesspeoples' opinions, or hell law students' opinions matter more than do-nothing worthless academics.

The rankings should eliminate entirely opinions of academics. Who gives a shit what another school's professors think of your school? You want a job, so lawyers and judges are the only people whose opinions matter. Even businesspeoples' opinions, or hell law students' opinions matter more than do-nothing worthless academics.

196-

don't hate on leiter.

193, I've been wondering the same thing.

Given that it's ranked #2 for PT programs, I don't really see how that alone could have contributed to its downfall.

But I don't really care enough to look at the numbers behind the rankings to try to prove this thing one way or another.

Isn't a SMU a large flightless bird?

176 = entitled kid unable to accept change and the fact that other law schools are as good or better than his.

I love all the Chicago love. I just don't get it. Have never heard anything even remotely good about Hyde Park. Bye bye Epstein, Sunstein, etc. Strange grading system that still baffles everyone. Its now-antiquated history as a top school does nothing for me as a reason why it should remain a top school.

Go GaTTTors!

197: agreed, the faster we do away with the circlejerk that is legal academia the better of we'll all be

San Diego +21 what the....

Looks like the USN people finally realized that Randy Barnett is at GW now.

Ah. Arrived at GW when it was 19. Leaving when it was 28. I am proud to leave this legacy.

35-

I know this may sound strange, but there are many people who would prefer not to live in the "great" Northeast.

just announced: uva to 80% in state.

UVa used to average around 7 and was the top public law school (beating Berkeley) when I entered. It had the same preference for in-state students then.

I imagine Boalt and Michigan have some preferences for in-state students as well. You need to find another scapegoat.

Tulane stole my sneakers!

All of you realize that the ranks don't matter at the firms that matter. What matters is the past performance of people who went to school, and that fact that you're not asocial.

Your wife is a large flightless bird, #200.

212,

Very true, it takes one bad apple to spoil the tree.

So much for SeTTTon Hall "rising".

SMU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6, do you really have that much trouble correctly reading listed items? Minn. is tied for 20.

6, do you really have that much trouble correctly reading listed items? Minn. is tied for 20.

6, do you really have that much trouble correctly reading listed items? Minn. is tied for 20.

how is new york law school in the top five??!?!!

6, do you really have that much trouble correctly reading listed items? Minn. is tied for 20.

185 -

I definitely don't think Penn should be above Chicago, but Berkeley shouldn't be tied with Chicago either.

Also, Penn definitely wins the M/V/P troika.

I always knew there was a reason for something like this.

201 = incredibly poor guess. not even close.

U. Chicago looks like a trade school or a DMV in Poland. The kids are bland, and Barack Obama once told me, I kid you not, that no one has much fun there.

The weather is great at Boalt, but Penn is superior in just about every way, unless you are into hippy law. I don't think anyone seriously disputes that.

Come to the Mexican fiesta or the rich kids for equal justice foundation at Penn and you will just love it. Plus, it can't be beat for corporate law.

210 -- well, apparently the DEAN thinks it has an impact. Hence his desire to "use the fncl independence to move up in the rankings." That implies reducing or scrapping the in state preference. Not sure what he's waiting for.

It's absurd to think it doesn't make a difference. Let's see what happens if yale had to accept 40% from CT or hls had to accept 40% from MA or Chicago w/ 40% from IL.

GW's weird scholarship methodology that is clearly intended to raise their rankings (doesn't make any sense otherwise) may actually be backfiring on them. They give tons of merit aid to a few people, like full rides or $60-$100k, and nothing to most. That has to do weird things to their yield rate.

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, WHAT THE F DO ANY OF YOU KNOW? MOST OF YOU ATTENDED ONE SCHOOL AND ARE BITTER ABOUT ANY OTHER SCHOOL RANKED "HIGHER" THAN YOURS. MOST OF YOU OPINING IN THIS THREAD HAVE NO BASIS FOR YOUR OPINIONS EXCEPT FOR CONJECTURE, ANECDOTES AND BULLSHIT. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHETHER BERKELEY SHOULD BE TIED WITH PENN OR CHICAGO OR WHATEVER. YOU ARE FULL OF HOT AIR WITH YOUR OWN AGENDA FOR OPINING. GET OUT OF HERE!!!

Dear GW law students:

You're fucking OUT!!!

- Kenny Powers

I always knew I was special.

225- you are clearly bitter because you were rejected by both Chicago and Boalt, and not surprising, since both have higher standards than that cesspool in West Philly. (Oh, and Barak Obama told you? Did he? Goody for you!)

202-no one gives a s--t why you can't "get it." Unless you've taken over the hiring committees at every top law firm, gov agency, and academic institution in the country.

225- you are clearly bitter because you were rejected by both Chicago and Boalt, and not surprising, since both have higher standards than that cesspool in West Philly. (Oh, and Barack Obama told you? Did he? Goody for you!)

202-no one gives a s--t why you can't "get it." Unless you've taken over the hiring committees at every top law firm, gov agency, and academic institution in the country.

152

"Another joke: I can't fathom a single reason why anyone would take IUB over ND or IL. But there they all are, tied at 23!"

Have you actually been to Bloomington, and the pits that house ND and U of I? As someone who went to law school in B-ton, and undergrad at U of I, I can tell you it is no contest, and B-ton wins hands down.

135 -

Georgetown already had a grip on the DC market; there are no other serious law schools in DC.

The main reason to go to GW is that you could hope someone would read "George Washington" and then later mistakenly think they read Georgetown on the resume.

This is the way it was before GW's drop in the rankings too. This drop won't hurt GW. GW was already in bad shape.

I got into Michigan but was wait listed at GULC. wtf?

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, WHAT THE F DO ANY OF YOU KNOW? MOST OF YOU ATTENDED ONE SCHOOL AND ARE BITTER ABOUT ANY OTHER SCHOOL RANKED "HIGHER" THAN YOURS. MOST OF YOU OPINING IN THIS THREAD HAVE NO BASIS FOR YOUR OPINIONS EXCEPT FOR CONJECTURE, ANECDOTES AND BULLSHIT. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHETHER BERKELEY SHOULD BE TIED WITH PENN OR CHICAGO OR WHATEVER. YOU ARE FULL OF HOT AIR WITH YOUR OWN AGENDA FOR OPINING. GET OUT OF HERE!!!

131, it is actually the top 102.

228:

If the person posting is less than approximately 30-years of age and attended or is attending a T14, it's very likely that they did a shit-ton of research (probably to the point of neurotic excess, give the lawyerly personality) concerning the 14 schools you see on that list. Meaning: trips, sitting in on classes, communication with alums and current students, investigating statistical info, negotiating scholarship, checking out research work, trading war stories with other applicants, etc.

In short: You're wrong. Most people who are attending or have attended a T14 know a decent amount about their peer schools.

231:

Merely expressing my opinion along with everyone else in here. If I wanted to make it official, I'd write about it in an article. But, we're on an anonymous message board, so my comment is just that: an anonymous comment about something that perplexes me. I'm in a school "ranked higher" than Chicago, whatever that means, so I'm not trying to bash it for any selfish purposes. I'll say good things about Berkeley and Penn and all other schools ranked below it, as well as schools ranked on my tier or above it.

- 202

Washington and Lee should be in the top 20.

I'm upset. I got a full ride to Yale, but was wait listed at Harvard and Stanford. What is up with that?

193 & 199-

Think of it this way -- GULC is the UCONN Women's Basketball team and GW is the Louisville. Louisville may be #2, but UCONN still crushed them by over 20 points.

The answer is simple -- GULC's night program is in a completely different league than GW's or American's -- it gets the students that could go to other T14 schools but cannot because they are working and are tied to their jobs in DC. [Wouldn't you continuing working and go to school at night if the government were covering the tab, a benefit which many government employees have?]

Perhaps 10 yrs ago you may have been right that there was a noticeable difference between the stats of GULC's day and night program students. The difference has since evaporated. In recent years there has only been a 1-pt LSAT difference between evening and day students, which is nothing considering most night students are unable to take the Kaplan course (or equivalent) to prep for the LSAT. GW has always had a significant lacuna between the credentials of its incoming students in the full-time program and those in its part-time, and its drop in ranking reflects that.

I have had a tight grip on my GULC for a long time.

236: agreed. we need to make more room for crazy people and schticks

btw, i think ur caps r on

Emory alums may be in government (like me) but they can't figure out how to post a comment on a web page. Hurray for government efficiency!

And Tulane may have stolen your sneakers, but UA stole Tulane's Dean!

Arizona to Top TTThirty!

89, we just had a good laugh in my T10 firm office at your comment

PROMassORY
ESTOPPELobster sounds about right.

Omg people, who cares? You all realize it's crap, just like firm rankings, right?

228 is correct -- most of you here only attended one law school, so all of this bitching is a bit non-sensical. and for those of you who attended two schools (i.e., transfers as 2Ls), your first school was obviously a pretty horrid, low-ranked school, so who cares about that comparison? and finally, all of this complaining about GW, Iowa, Georgia, etc. is all meaningless. among those whose opinions actually matter, no one cares about schools ranked below 10 or 15 (at most). so everyone stop their whining and just shut up and get over it.

Give me back that fillet-o-SMU
Give me that SMUUUUUU!

193, 199

and let's not forget about brooklyn's complete non-inclusion of its PT #ers

additionally, how do you the reconcile the annihilation of GW and Fordham with USD's +21 (despite PT inclusion)?

GW and Fordham at 28 / 30 behind IUB and Iowa is the beginning of the end; USNWR has officially jumped the shark.

238: give me a break. i'm sure you and your cronies are neurotic. I don't believe even 5% of law school applicants engage in that neurotic behavior, and while they may take certain steps to ascertain whether a school is fit for them, they still do not have a basis for saying this school should be ranked 8 or 6 or should be tied with that school. It's a stupid and ridiculous exercise, just like the rankings by "professionals" themselves. SO DON'T BE AN IDIOT!

A LOT of people misunderstand the implications of including a part time ranking.

It doesn't affect the normal ranking at all. The LSAT/GPA scores are calculated the same way for full-time programs (i.e., using only full-time students) -- just as they were last year.

GW took a hit because of a change in employment #'s. It may be related to this change: Traditionally, when calculating post-graduate placement rates, the staff lumped those students who weren’t looking for a job in with those students who were but were still unemployed. That was changed for this year. “We just didn’t count those who aren’t looking as part of the calculations,” says Morse.

So kindly STFU about the part time program.

240-WTF? WandL has fallen from top 20 to top 25 to top 30. What's next? Top 40ish. . . Maybe it should stop taking part time students? Or does it have a p/t evening program in Lexington? That would explain move, anyway, if it has a night division.

Listening to you fools argue over which school is in the top 20, 30, etc. is like watching starving folks fighting over a few crumbs of bread. Here's the bad news, whether you like it or not:

If you're not Top 5, you're nothing. Period. End of story. If fact, in my book, you're not even a real lawyer. You're a poser.

Go ahead - flame away. That won't make it any less true, and won't make you any less employable than you already are.

202/231 (and now that I think about it, you're probably 225 as well) - of course these comments would be from an idiotic law student who has no clue what goes on in the real world, i.e., the one you'll be trying to find a job in. From someone who has been out several years, I wouldn't worry too much for the Chicago kids. Even though you think they're beneath you, they'll still probably end up with better jobs than you. (Ask your friend Barack Obama.)

W&L 3L sux

W&L = UVA's asshole.

255: Stop trying to lump yourself in with HYS. Failure.

Listening to you fools argue over which school is in the top 20, 30, etc. is like watching starving folks fighting over a few crumbs of bread. Here's the bad news, whether you like it or not:

If you're not Top 5, you're nothing. Period. End of story. If fact, in my book, you're not even a real lawyer. You're a poser.

Go ahead - flame away. That won't make it any less true, and won't make you any less employable than you already are.

I LOVE HOW THE ONLY LOSERS COMPLAINING WENT TO SCHOOLS OUT OF TOP 10. GEORGETOWN STINKS. EMORY STINKS. GW STINKS. I WOULDN'T BE CAUGHT DEAD AT ANY OF THOSE.

I love the arguments that UVA's 40% in-state policy is hurting LSAT scores, and that low LSAT scores are why we're 10 rather than something higher.

6: UC Berkeley - 164 - 170
10: UVA - 166 - 171

I once shot a GULCer, just to see it die.

I don't get why they rank schools after 50. At that point, who cares?? Just go to the cheapest school in the market where you want to work after...

Let me break it down for you jerk offs.

If you are still employed at big firms, despite what pathetic law school you went to, YOU ARE STILL A WINNER.

If you are no longer employed at a big firm because of the economy, despite what amazing top tier law school you went to, YOU ARE A LOSER!

Just like that.

What about Maine?

253 = GW part time student

Hey part timer - you've just been READINGCOMPREHENSIONPWNED - no wonder you're just a part timer:

According to Bob Morse, the director of data research for the magazine, the staff made several changes to the methodology this year. For starters, in the main law school rankings, the staff combined admissions data for full and part time students. “In the past, we’d just used full-time,” said Morse. “But some schools we think were gaming the system. There were some part-time programs that were set up just for US News reporting purposes.”

UNLV +13

Sure, 260. Go ahead and believe that. Just watch yourself get passed up by us "posers" or laid off for being a lazy, entitled dickhead.

A SMU says what?

This thread is awesome

260--In fact, "if you're not Top 3, you're nothing."

In fact, "if you're not YLS, you're nothing."

In fact, "if you're not YLS with an appellate clerkship, you're nothing."

In fact, "if you're not YLS with an appellate clerkship with a feeder judge, you're nothing."

In fact, "if you're not YLS with a SCOTUS clerkship, you're nothing."

The best thing is that, like your post, this conclusion is absolutely irrefutable.

To all the math stupids out there who can't understand why GULC was not affected while GW was:

Georgetown did drop. The LSAT median is a point lower, and the gpa 0.1 lower. These changes dropped the score from a 77 to a 75. So now, instead of being just a point behind cornell, they are just a point ahead of the 15th slot. They just lucked out that there aren't any other schools in the 78-74 range, such that their drop didn't matter.

Clearly the 2 point drop for GW (or maybe it was 3-4) had a bigger impact.

Suck on my Princeton prestige, bitches!

Fact: I would rather make love to Susan Boyle than attend GW's legal trade school.

Hofstra got me a clerkship at NAMBLA.

NYU 2.9L here.

NYU over Chicago IS ridiculous if you look at the students. It's not if you look at the faculty. Sorry Chicago, we have NYC, you have... Chicago. Makes recruiting easier for us.

Agreed 272, what's also irrefutable is that while I may not go to a top ten school and that may mean I won't make as much money as folks like 260 and 261, based on their comments I am a nicer person than them and will likely die happier.

Texas Big Aids > GULCrabs

U. Chicago looks like a trade school or a DMV in Poland. The kids are bland, and Barack Obama once told me, I kid you not, that no one has much fun there.

The weather is great at Boalt, but Penn is superior in just about every way, unless you are into hippy law. I don't think anyone seriously disputes that.

Come to the Mexican fiesta or the rich kids for equal justice foundation at Penn and you will just love it. Plus, it can't be beat for corporate law.

Touche, 267.

I was under the impression that folding the data together was taken off the table once the part-time rankings were decided on.

Kindly disregard everything I said (except maybe the employment point, which is still valid).

- 253

273, FAIL. GULC went from 74 to 75. that's +1, i think

120: Why so interested in SCOTUS placement? Doesn't have anything to do with rankings. What DOES affect rankings is buzz regarding reputation, and Duke has plenty of that these days (in large part because of the individual you mention).

Berkeley in the top 6 is an f-ing joke. It is about as respected in the legal community as Cornell. Michigan and Viriginia should both be way ahead of Berkeley. Look at the clerkship numbers.

277 - poaching an about-to-retire professor at the decline of his career does not constitute a huge victory (if that's what your vague faculty comment refers to).

As to your city v. city argument, as hard as it is to believe, some people don't like New York and/or actually prefer the city of Chicago.

And, as for those who really, really love NY and want to settle down there forever and ever, many actually believe that their chances of scoring good jobs in NY are higher coming from U.Chicago than NYU.

I'd say that might make recruiting easier for Chicago.

GW is still a good law school. Just not as good as GULC and about 27 other law schools, notwithstanding all the flaming GW students posting nonsense here.

278 -- ah, but you WILL die, and that is what separates you and I, mere mortal.

Loyola Chicago has dropped to a tie with DePaul. I don't think that's ever happened before

238- "Most people who are attending or have attended a T14 know a decent amount about their peer schools."

Get a clue. No one on this board, at any law firm, or at any magazine can pass judgment on any particular attorney's abilities simply based on the law school that attorney went to. If you think you can do so based on things like LSAT scores or the number of books in a library, you truly are beyond help.

Rock on 228 and 252, you seem to be the only sane people on this board who are worth their salt. Now that's the kind of non-arrogant and logical attorneys I'd want to hire.

UVA grads kill babies.

Go banana!

- Ralph Wiggum, UNC Law '11

Partner Emeritus,

Back in your day, the top schools where Harvard, Yale, Michigan, and Chicago, followed by Stanford and Boalt.
This top 3 crap is new.

U. Chicago looks like a trade school or a DMV in Poland. The kids are bland, and Barack Obama once told me, I kid you not, that no one has much fun there.

The weather is great at Boalt, but Penn is superior in just about every way, unless you are into hippy law. I don't think anyone seriously disputes that.

Come to the Mexican fiesta or the rich kids for equal justice foundation at Penn and you will just love it. Plus, it can't be beat for corporate law.

BigLaw from GW - no prob. Biglaw from Indiana? Try again.

287 - that is what "separates you and I"?? You are one of those idiots who do not know when to use "you and me," and "you and I"? First I hope you are not a law student, or heaven forbid, a practicing attorney. MORON!

284 - clearly got rejected from Boalt

Penn recently bought a higher ranking offering tons of scholarship money. Before 2000, Penn was only a peer to Cornell and Duke.

# 231 - There is only one Kenny Powers and that's me. Now, you're fucking out!

# 240 - W&L is a shithole. It's lucky that it is in the Top 50, but at it's current track that won't be an issue in about 3 years. Their administration is a joke. The only thing is should be in the top 20 for is the school with the biggest number of douchebags, retards, and lesbians (most notably Jenna W. C.). Boom!

This thread really makes me happy I'm not in law school anymore.

US News is a bigger gamer than law schools. They'll do anything to sell print. Every year there has to be some controversy. This year they've picked Indiana and GW as the newsmakers. Next year it will be someone else. The fact that school rankings can fluctuate so much year to year (USD +21) seriously undermines the value of these rankings. The steady tiers of the top law schools are gamed to produce news. But seriously, a school jumping 21 spots in one year is just ridiculous and demonstrates serious flaws in their metrics.

294,

Does having to prove your school is better than Indiana make you want to cry?

uh-oh. should I tell my V Top-10 firm that my school dropped from 20 to 28? and what are all of my idiots coworkers from the top 20 schools going to think of me? man. I am so stressed.

- GW Law 3L

Here's how I view it.

Y

HS

ColN

ChiP

MVB

ND

Cor

GULC, UT

296 - Berkeley is a fantastic school, but it's not on par with HYSCCN. Sorry.

Dear Dean Lawrence,

Jettison the part time program. Full time students and alumni can't afford for the school to keep slipping.

GW Students and Alumni.

Fortunately, there's an easy way to decide whether to use I or me in such sentences. All you have to do is drop the word you then try the sentence with I and me one at a time. For example:

* I should have lunch.
* Me should have lunch.

Clearly the preferred form in this case is I; thus, the original sentence was correct to use you and I.

Here's another example: He'll blame you and I. Drop the word you then try the sentence with I and me one at a time, like so:

* He'll blame I.
* He'll blame me.

You can see that the second of these is correct. This means that the original sentence should have been: He'll blame you and me.

Fortunately, there's an easy way to decide whether to use I or me in such sentences. All you have to do is drop the word you then try the sentence with I and me one at a time. For example:

* I should have lunch.
* Me should have lunch.

Clearly the preferred form in this case is I; thus, the original sentence was correct to use you and I.

Here's another example: He'll blame you and I. Drop the word you then try the sentence with I and me one at a time, like so:

* He'll blame I.
* He'll blame me.

You can see that the second of these is correct. This means that the original sentence should have been: He'll blame you and me.

262: but boalt kills you in GPA. it's a rich tapestry

US News to GW law grads -

To sell our magazine we just reduced the value of your law degree.

Where's Cravath? Didn't they use to be T-20?

What does "mvp" stand for in the law school context?

303: any doubt you're a P troll? just threw in the UT to throw people off

293 - BigLaw from Indiana here.

Yup, we exist. And not just in Chicago either.

@311 Michigan, Virginia, Penn

235--I also got into Michigan (and Penn) but was wait-listed by Georgetown (in 2002). I was also wait-listed by Harvard, NYU, Columbia, Chicago and Berkley. GW and Cardozo offered me decent scholarships.

i don't get this "gw gamed it's #ers" commentary

the FT class has ~510 students (the same size that it has historically been) with a median LSAT of 167 and median GPA of 3.75

what exactly has been gamed? it's not as if the FT division has been decreased by 100-150 and the PT has been increased by the same #. nothing has been changed and there has not been artificial inflation of the FT division's #ers - so wtf?

additionally, it's painfully obvious tha brooklyn declined to factor in its PT #ers. if there's any gaming at all, it was done by brook.

When I went to UVA Law, it had to take in 60 percent in-staters but was ranked about 7th; now its 40 percent and its ranked tied for 10th. It was always my impression that the in-staters were, overall, not nearly as qualified as the out of staters (professors would privately confirm this view) and that the law school's independence from state funding would relieve it of having to take a large quota of faux (in their own minds) Ivy Leaguers wearing Lacoste shirts from the undergraduate University. The Law School needs to jettison this idiotic arrangement that drags it down; those who want in-state law schools to serv e the locals have William & Mary, Washington & Lee and George Mason University for that purpose, all of which are pretty good institutions.

302 -

I thought it was amusing that you posted as if you will actually start working at the V10 firm to which you claim an affiliation. Keep that sense of humor.

"Think of it this way -- GULC is the UCONN Women's Basketball team and GW is the Louisville. Louisville may be #2, but UCONN still crushed them by over 20 points.

The answer is simple -- GULC's night program is in a completely different league than GW's or American's -- it gets the students that could go to other T14 schools but cannot because they are working and are tied to their jobs in DC. [Wouldn't you continuing working and go to school at night if the government were covering the tab, a benefit which many government employees have?]

Perhaps 10 yrs ago you may have been right that there was a noticeable difference between the stats of GULC's day and night program students. The difference has since evaporated. In recent years there has only been a 1-pt LSAT difference between evening and day students, which is nothing considering most night students are unable to take the Kaplan course (or equivalent) to prep for the LSAT. GW has always had a significant lacuna between the credentials of its incoming students in the full-time program and those in its part-time, and its drop in ranking reflects that."

************************************************
1. Agreed. Back in 2003 I got into 6 of the t-10, but I ended up going to GULC part-time and kept my job.

2. GW fell because the same caliber of students don't apply to GW and GULC.

306/307: I am 295 (yes congratulations are in order), and I (not me) caught 287's stupid mistake. We don't need your attention-seeking ass giving a grammar lesson here. I only pointed it out to show what an idiot he is, not to invite some douche like you to "educate" the douche readership of ATL (of which I am included). SO TAKE YOUR STUPID GRAMMAR LESSONS OUT OF HERE!!

54 is correct. 77 is not.

But 295/320, I *am* 287!

- 306/307

317: W&L is private

304,

Check out a USNWR from 2000. Yes. That's correct. It took a 3.3 GPA to get into Chicago. For NYU, all you need is a high LSAT score and a heartbeat.

GW needs more cowbell.

Berkeley is a great school so haters can suck on it. The students are friendly and the professors are top notch. The weather is great and the price reasonable in comparison.

UVA? Really. Who would want to attend that toilet. Chicago people are so insecure that they are dropping in prestige and ranking that they need to attack anyone in close range. Most Chicago alums I've met have been a-holes.

324: what are you trying to say? it was easy to get into chicago in 2000? 9 years ago? what bearing does that have on this conversation?

and how do you justify that for NYU all you need is a high LSAT? it has essentially the same GPA numbers as Columbia.

in fact, one could more plausibly argue the opposite, that all you need is a high GPA and heartbeat to get into Boalt, because the LSAT #'s are truly atrocious for its "peer schools"

The State of California runs Berkeley, my friend, and the State of California is effectively bankrupt, with junk bond status. Try that on for size when you're thinking about next year's law school funding and tuition.

Truth be told the rankings are arbitrary at best and one can get just as oggd of an education at any top 100 law school.

Shouldn't American be ranked higher because they have a much higher ratio of women to men -- 60% women-40% men?

I think there should be a troll ranking. CONGRATS CHICAGO! YOU'RE NUMBER 1 IN SOMETHING OTHER THAN STUDENT SUICIDES!

328:

You should also mention to these people to enjoy learning from John Yoo, quite possibly the slimiest of slimy lawyers.

Penn? For real? I mean, nice place, good school, but better than Mich, UVa and Berkeley? That's simply not true.

324 - that's a very silly point. First, it is data from 2000. Second, you provide no context. Was that the median GPA, the 25%, or what? What were Berkeley's stats from back? Boalt's 25% LSAT was 161 within the last 5 years. Does that mean it only took a 161 to get into Boalt? Further, GPA is a much less objective measure than the LSAT. It correlates weaker than the LSAT to first year law school grades. Berkeley disproportionately weights GPA to provide a 'legitimate' facade to practice affirmative action.

I'm not hating on the school at all. As I mentioned, it's a great school. But it's not as strong as HYSCCN.

I got a T-14 Degree and I'm top of my class
(It doesn't matter!)
My V10 Firm Didn't Defer My Ass
(It doesn't matter!)
What? I'm on Law Review and Moot Court Too
(It doesn't matter!)
Yo cause if you ain't sharin, people ain't carin
Come up in the hood and they take everything you wearin
Yo Rock I just aced my BarBri practice exam
(It doesn't matter that you just aced your BarBri practice exam, because we'll fire you in six months.)

289--learn to read. No one was saying that you can tell how good or bad an attorney is based on his school. I wouldn't make that claim. Nor would I about a given student (though I'm happy to do so in a broader sense, e.g., 'the average student from x')

The point of the post--which apparently flew over your 'rock on' head--is a dispute over whether students at one school can have a general idea of the quality of other SCHOOLS. Someone earlier suggested (in trollish fashion) that they cannot. I beg to differ, at least for the student cohort over the last 10 years.

Your point is a non sequitur,

Did it ever occur to any of you that undergard GPA and/or LSAT scores are not necessarily the best measurements of "caliber" of students? Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that it's much easier to rely on metrics based on questionable foundations than things of the more subjective variety which is why in other threads you all argue about which of your firms is best based on thing like.....rankings again, surprise surprise.

183 - you probably shouldn't take it personally, although you are in state.

I got dinged by safety school's UNC and Emory, even though I was wait listed at CLS and accepted into schools ranked in that MVPBND tier 7 thru 10, not to mention the UCLAs and USCs of the world. I ended up at UVa, loved it, and the rest is history.

The reason I point this out is that schools that don't think they can land you have a reason to ding you . . . it helps their yield and acceptance % out.

Take your 80K, enjoy ATL, work your ass off, and transfer to Duke or UVa.

330:

here's another take. chicago gets so much talk because it has the biggest disparity between where the legal, academic, and judicial profession perceives it to be (which is in a tight cluster with Columbia / Harvard / Stanford) vs. where the US News places it (below NYU? tied with Penn? Boalt? wtf)

That's reality. Unlike in, say, undergrad, where no one knows what the fuck they're talking about (outside hard sciences) in terms of assessing schools' program quality, people have figured out how to tell if someone makes a good lawyer / judge / academic, and Chicago pulls that off.

So until the ranking reflect reality, people are going to bitch. And, unlike with undergrad, reality will not turn into whatever the rankings say it should.

I highly doubt that Geography is a big negative for Emory. Plenty of NYC/DC firms showed up to interview Emory students in the fall.

NYC BigLaw from Indiana here as well. Sorry, 294.

Um, Chicago, grow up.

In 1987, you were ranked 6th. Okay, you were ranked 2 once, but you were 6th. Now you're still 6th. Quitcha bitchin.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_ranking__usn_history

And for the NYU haters, NYU's been top 10 since the rankings started. Been top 5 since 2000. Grow up.

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wow, so law students do read this site. that's nice. and i do love how many people are still debating why and where they went to law school. give it up man.

boalt may be #6 in the ranking, but for people who want to actually have friends in law school and not be pis*ng in their pants every other day, it is the number one or two place in america to be.

boalt may be #6 in the ranking, but for people who want to actually have friends in law school and not be pis*ng in their pants every other day, it is the number one or two place in america to be.

Truly, the USNWR rankings have jumped the shark. How, in any rational universe, is Iowa ranked higher than either GW or Fordham?

The faculty at Iowa is outdated, most of the good faculty members have left or are leaving (four younger, dynamic members are gone after this year), and there is an overreliance on adjuncts - one of whom is a do-nothing flame out. Iowa also has one of the worst, bumbling diversity tools of a Dean ever seen. It doesn't matter that she's finally been booted out by the University - she'll still be there another year. Iowa's job placement numbers are not only suspect, they're down right laughable.

Ten years ago, Iowa used to be a better law school. Something is clearly wrong in the rankings world, however, if the current realities aren't better reflected.

345:

You realize that:

* only someone attending Boalt
* would think that going somewhere where one had to do a bit more work than is entailed in the the usual 'bj the coach' study sessions characterizing the California academic scene
* would think that said work would result in 'pissing [one's] pants every other day'

The massive confusion over the last few days between Penn State and U Penn is shocking. Have you all hit your heads recently? Since when would Penn State ever be relevant to this blog unless one of its law students is a Craigslist hooker or one of its deans is an electronic-age half-wit? For real people.

Chicago is in a tight cluster with Columbia and Stanford.. wtf does that mean?
Stanford is 3, Columbia is 4, Chicago is 6 how much tighter do you want it to be?

are you just trolling AGAINST nyu? and you clearly have a disdain for boalt.

it might be in the same league as Stanford and Columbia, but if you want to talk about how the school is generally perceived in the legal community you have to admit it's 3rd out of those 3.

LET'S CLEAR THIS UP ONCE AND FOR ALL. PENN STATE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYVLANIA, WHICH IS AN IVY LEAGUE T10 SCHOOL. THEY AREN'T IN THE SAME TIER.

sorry for the caps

two words:
GO BEARS!

two words:
GO BEARS!

In my experience, GW's ranking reflects its current product.

The Berkeley douchebags on this thread are the worst.

And I thought the school was supposedly relaxed with cool people. Or was that just the justification that insecure Boalties gave when their ranking was shitty? What a crock of shit.

335 - "289--learn to read. No one was saying that you can tell how good or bad an attorney is based on his school. "

If you think I don't know how to read, it seems rather pointless to respond to me in written fashion, genius.

"The point of the post--which apparently flew over your 'rock on' head--is a dispute over whether students at one school can have a general idea of the quality of other SCHOOLS. Someone earlier suggested (in trollish fashion) that they cannot. I beg to differ.."

You can differ all you want but my "rock on" head tells me that you have no clue what you're talking about. You can tell whether a school should be ranker third or fourth based on what? The lighting in the library? What you felt was the "caliber" of th students while you visited all the T15? Give me a break, that thought is insanely absurd.

"Your point is a non sequitur,"

Ooo good vocabulary, I'm so impressed. I wouldn't be surprised if ALL the top law schools fought tooth and nail over you.....

well should have went to BU instead of BC, got into both, but 11 years ago, BC was higher. such crap !!! i might as well just quit law. its like buying stock

========
350 -- dude, the UPENN state thing is a joke. albeit, not a very funny one, it is a joke nonetheless. i have two theories about the meme:

1. started by penn students themselves to raise awareness that they indeed don't go to penn state.

2. started by insecure chicago students who attack any school that has been tied with them in the us news rankings (i.e. penn and boalt, others?) to validate their decision to go to a school that was once a preeminent law school but has slipped in prestige considerably.

note: i did not attend any of the above mentioned schools.

355: i'm not the guy you were originally arguing with, but you sound like an idiot.

there are great disparities in the quality of student bodies. perhaps the difference between michigan and virginia isn't that discernable, but certainly the difference between michigan and brooklyn law is.

so in that sense you can get a general sense of at least how academically accomplished an attorney is by which school he or she attended. if someone attended harvard law, at least you know they performed very well in college and scored well on the LSAT. maybe he or she isn't a very good attorney, but the odds are better than a person who neither performed well in college nor scored high on the lsat

355:

Here's why your a cock: because you won't just admit that you missed the point of the first post.

Also, I feel a little silly even responding. I usually just assume most people on this board are law students, with a few scattered associates. But the fact that you--even sarcastically--reference my use of the phrase 'non sequitur' tells me that there's a decent chance you are ?undergrad? ?0L?

Whatever. No one knows how to just admit they were wrong or made a mistake. Everyone is a superstud on these boards.

357=nyu 1l

Ahem.

As a practicing attorney at a big fancy national Vault T50 law firm who was Law Review at a T20 law school and Phi Beta Kappa at a T20 college (whew, got all my "T" rankings in), let me clear something up:

Obsession over law school rankings makes you a tool. If you went to a T20 school, then feel free to check that box on your resume. That fact has a certain, definite value, in terms of competing for jobs. T10 school? Even better - check that box with even more satisfaction. That said, once you start working (assuming you ever do), that ranking and your related diploma (have fun framing it for $200) are nothing more than decoration. Cocktail party chit-chat. In other words, nobody gives a sh*t.

Seriously, a lot of the threads in here are sad, but this is really kind of pathetic. Does every school HAVE to have an acronym? Do you all talk about this stuff THAT much?

Go study, or get drunk, or exercise, or take a nap or do ANYTHING other than argue bitterly about law school rankings.

Wasn't NYU #9 mereley 5-10 years ago? Why does everyone blindly accept it as a top 5 now?

361: T20 law schools and T50 firms are nothing to brag about. In fact, you should be very embarrassed.

361:
for what it's worth, if you went to a T10 instead of T20 you'd probably be working at a v10, not v50 :(

maybe that matters or maybe it doesn't for your exit options, i have no idea. i'm just in law school.

358--"355: i'm not the guy you were originally arguing with, but you sound like an idiot. there are great disparities in the quality of student bodies. perhaps the difference between michigan and virginia isn't that discernable, but certainly the difference between michigan and brooklyn law is."

Maybe if you'd actually read the thread you'd know what the heck you were talking about. The whole discussion began because a poster said that top14 students have visited all of those schools and can tell them apart and legitimately talk about whether one is #7 or #8. In fact, you admitted yourself in the post quoted above that such an argument makes no sense. I'm glad you agree with me but then again, don't think I want an idiot like you in my corner.

364 -- Not all of us are in BigLaw just so we can get out of BigLaw in 3 years. Some of us genuinely enjoy it. It's not always about "exit strategies."

---Not 361

359 - "Here's why your a cock: because you won't just admit that you missed the point of the first post."

Actually I addressed your point in my second post and you didn't so maybe you're the....

"But the fact that you--even sarcastically--reference my use of the phrase 'non sequitur' tells me that there's a decent chance you are ?undergrad? ?0L?"

Ahahahaha, I'm an attorney. Hope you're better at practicing law than you are at guessing.

283: Because a school that hasn't placed a SCOTUS Clerk since the Clinton Administration (or thereabouts) is kidding itself if it thinks it's elite. GW is walking Duke on that point.

Also, if they're just going to give up (and the faculty basically has) on placing SCOTUS Clerks, they should tell applicants that you can't get to One First Street from the corner of Science Drive and Towerview Road. No one at the Law School seems to give a crap, so I'm reduced to shouting into a void here.

Thanks for listening.

--Devil in Disguise

195, you're wrong. Stanford students are in higher demand on the job market--Stanford's class is about one-third the size of Harvard's. Also, Stanford is stronger in many areas of law (IP, international trade, etc.) It's easier to get on Law Review at Stanford because of the small class size. And there's also the whole quality of life thing...

366: just because you want exit strategies, doesn't mean you don't enjoy being a lawyer or the work. the fact of the matter is 5% of associates become partners at the firm they started with, so it would be smart to have the best exit options available.

as we've seen in the last few months, you might be needing them at any time. always nice to the a Harvard on the resume as opposed to a Vanderbilt. (not that there's anything wrong with that school)

F the upper East Coast. Also, please remove all the New Yorkers and Bostonians from my city / state asap.

Signed, oceanview and 50 hr work week

361: You be wrong my friend. As an in-house attorney who also does the hiring, if you are not from a T10 school, we are not going to look at you - even if you have been out of school a number of years.

It matters, my friend, it matters.

WashU to Top 14!!!!!!!!!

370:
I'm a bankruptcy attorney. I'm going to be ok.

And trust me, there's plenty on my resume to overcome not going to a T14 school, but rather a T25 one. Exit strategies that involve touting where you went to law school are for people who do three years of doc review and have nothing else to show on their resume.

362, maybe because the difference between 9 and 5 really isn't that great in practical terms (ie, jobs)? I mean, USNWR has to sell their magazine somehow.

BC needs to get its ass up into the top 20. It beat Fordham and GW, now its time to beat BU. One at a time, baby.

What's up with Levin slipping to just-ahead-of-FSU?

368: The last group of administrators dropped the ball, agreed. But, since SCOTUS placements are so personality driven, I do suspect this will change with the new group of (more connected and more interested) people that are looking out for students (think Ernie Young, David Levi, Bradley, etc.). Maybe you will be right, but I'm betting this changes, and soon.

372 - I think the point the poster at 361 was trying to make (actually, if you read the post, they make this point rather clearly), is that the general tier of law school you attend IS important when it comes to getting interviews and eventually getting a job. No dispute about that. However, once you HAVE a job, it fades into the background.

All that said, the real point is that heated arguments full of insults about something like law school rankings is asinine, and qualifies you for a big tool badge. Just saying.

I will not pretend to keep track of each factor that contributes to U.S. News rankings. I will say that I think it is hard to compare schools in different geographic regions, such as GW or Fordham v. UT, because there is a value to studying in a place that gives you access to key government headquarters and courts (DC) or financial establishments (NYC). I went to school in DC, for example, to intern year-round at various gov't agencies, so that I was not limited to summer experiences. Plus, comparing someone who was able to get into the best school down South, where less people even want to go, v. a more recognized and highly regarded place, reminds me of some people's approach to judicial clerkships. For the life of me, I do not view someone who obtained a federal clerkship in South Carolina as equal to someone who competed and won a clerkship in DC ---even if it is the DC Court of Appeals.

Content, employed GW Alum

362--22 years ago. Troll harder. 0/10

Dean Lawrence should have graded those poor 1L exams at GW. Maybe then he would be able to point to something he actually accomplished at GW instead of driving it into the ground. WORST DEAN EVER!!!!

Dear Dean L.,
Take a sabbatical from teaching and focus on being a dean and getting the law school out of the crapper.

Sincerely,
GW Alumni

35-

I know this may sound strange, but there are many people who would prefer not to live in the "great" Northeast.

"For the life of me, I do not view someone who obtained a federal clerkship in South Carolina as equal to someone who competed and won a clerkship in DC ---even if it is the DC Court of Appeals."

And that is why people in the other 95% of America dislike people from Northeastern cities...

379: we got his point very clearly. what the rest of us are saying is when you're up for the next job (and unless you make partner you will be up for another job again in your career, school once again matters albeit to a lesser degree.

and to the other guy, i am happy you're getting such awesome non-doc review experience that you couldn't have gotten at a v10. i'm sure v50s produce much better and more marketable attorneys.

378: You may be right; I hope you are. I am admittedly not inside the tent anymore.

But what I'm saying is that, until I "Duke 'XX" is a SCOTUS Clerk Watch, the drought stands, it's embarrassing, and being "back" in the T-10 (again) doesn't really change that. I hope the new administration gets that.

--Devil in Disguise

Hey. I go to GW. I have to admit it. We are all idiots. As the rankings clearly indicate, our quality of students and intelligence has dropped the equivalent of 8 spots since last year. I don't know what it is. We just aren't as motivated as some of the other schools. On behalf of everybody, I just wanted to say sorry. Hopefully we can improve next year.

Sincerely,

GW Law Student

GULC = insecure popped collar students that just need to get laid

GULC = insecure popped collar students that just need to get laid

GULC = insecure popped collar students that just need to get laid

231/232:

"Thought I might go here due to the excellence of the law and economics program. But after visiting, I was disappointed for it seemed solely focused on studying and not on enjoying life. Dreary weather and the dreary, grey Gothic buildings all blended together to create a depressing atmosphere for this California kid."

From the creator of top-law-schools.com

- 202

387 = flame?

The creator of top-law-schools is a flaming Boalt troll that fools 0L's into believing the school is much better than it is. That place is a creepy Boalt cult. The school owes that guy a serious amount of money.

As a GW grad, I was a little disappointed to learn about the school's drop in the rankings. I am truthful enough to admit that law school rank does indeed come into play a bit when looking for a new job (although it does get less important as time goes by), but the nastiness of some of the comments here has been pretty shocking to read. Seriously people! I have met Harvard grads who have failed the Bar and Alabama, Catholic and Hastings grads who are exceptional attorneys. Good law school does not always = good attorney.

6th Year Big Law Associate

GW and Fordham were decimated by the fact that

wait for it .. it's complicated:

the new USNWR rankings penalize schools that have PT programs.

the new methodology is predicated upon one assumption and one assumption only: schools that have PT programs abuse those programs to game the system and artificially inflate their admission numbers. the reality is that all 500+ members of the GW '11 FT class contributed to the median #ers of 167 / 3.75. the same is probably true for fordham. the assumption that backdrops this change is illusory - so why apply it?

the real result is this: the poor bastards who want to attend a semi decent night school are now going to get totally F'ed. the methodology switch is ill-conceived and unfairly punishes schools with PT programs. USNWR is amateur hour these days. time for something better.

the calls for dean lawrence's head need to stop; 44% of the class of '08 (his "prototype" class) entered NLJ 250 firms (highest percentage ever for GW) and the medians admit #ers remain at all time highs. Aside from being blindsided by a moronic switch in (arbitrary) school rankings, what exactly has he done that merits dismissal?

100:1 that the methodoloy change is dropped by next year.

372-"As an in-house attorney who also does the hiring, if you are not from a T10 school, we are not going to look at you - even if you have been out of school a number of years"

You're not screwing anyone but your company with that attitude (and no you're not screwing those who didn't go to T10, trust me, they don't want to work with you or at your company).

That's right bitches, GO DAVIS!!

Something to consider in defense of GW & its night program:

GW has one of the the best IP law programs in the country which attracts many former scientists & engineers. The night program in particular gets heavily weighted by people who work at the USPTO as Patent Examiners. These students on average tend have lower GPAs as a result of (1) having honestly challenging majors, (2) being graded on a curve in undergrad, and (3) the fact that the science & engineering students with high GPAs probably went on to get M.D.s and Ph.D.s. These lower GPAs don't indicate lower quality students admitted to GW, but rather reflects the fact that many patent attorneys come to law as a change in career or second choice. The stereotypical 22-year old with a 4.0 BA in General Studies from some liberal arts college, who often goes to straight through to law school because they don't know what else to do with their life but takes tests well, isn't qualified enough to even think about looking at a patent. Further, those IP students with lower grades probably have a better chance of getting a job in this market because they have the background that comes with a real education. The USNW rankings already lack legitimacy because they value numbers over the realities of how well law schools train lawyers. This just adds another reason to ignore the self-propagating faux-importance of the rankings.

394 - LOL at your dismay of other's elitism and then using Hastings as your underdog story. You think GW is *that* much better than Hastings? I'll grant that it's better for the East Coast, but it's probably worse for the West Coast.

Ha. It is one thing to rank part-time programs. It is quite another to incorporate them into the rankings of the FULL-TIME program. For all intensive purposes, the term "law school" refers to the full-time program. That is the program people struggle to get into; that is the program professionals refer to when hiring. Combining the two into one is deceiving; if anything, have two lists. GW full-time is top 20 without a doubt. In fact, they have the 6th highest placement of students in in big law firms. Not sure what is up with the haters out there, but these rankings cannot honestly be taken seriously.

400 - you are exactly why there are GW haters.

What about more relaxed purposes? Does the term "law school" still refer to full-time program?

Also, don't make shit up. GW's placement is much worse than 6th.

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/04/shocking_but_true_students_fro.php

For all of those haters who don't think Berkeley belongs at #6, I would love to see Boalt admit solely on quantitative factors for just one year, just to see it match numbers with any of CCN. The western states have nearly 1/5th of the U.S. population, and less than 500 1L seats combined at its only two prestigious (T14) schools: Stanford and Berkeley. Imagine if the eastern states, with roughly 3/5ths the U.S. population, had only 1500 1L seats at top law schools and the rest of the seats were on the other side of the country.

This is why Boalt and Stanford are top 4 in lowest acceptance rates. You have no understanding how competitive these schools are for those of us coming from the west, which is why I was denied from both and got into every other school in the top 14 except H, where I was WLed, and Y. Luckily I have less than 2 months out here before I am back home.

For all of those haters who don't think Berkeley belongs at #6, I would love to see Boalt admit solely on quantitative factors for just one year, just to see it match numbers with any of CCN. The western states have nearly 1/5th of the U.S. population, and less than 500 1L seats combined at its only two prestigious (T14) schools: Stanford and Berkeley. Imagine if the eastern states, with roughly 3/5ths the U.S. population, had only 1500 1L seats at top law schools and the rest of the seats were on the other side of the country.

This is why Boalt and Stanford are top 4 in lowest acceptance rates. You have no understanding how competitive these schools are for those of us coming from the west, which is why I was denied from both and got into every other school in the top 14 except H, where I was WLed, and Y. Luckily I have less than 2 months out here before I am back home.

the trolling is so ridiculous. i guess in the end those guys were right, we only attended 1 school so most of what we say about other schools is speculative, but i can tell you that there is no way in heaven or hell that GW has the 6th best firm placement with firms in the country.

403: your reasoning assumes that all western students end up at boalt or stanford, and all eastern students end up on the east coast

i'm just guessing, but i'd think that far more west coast people come out to the east coast to go to law school than eastcoasters going to the west coast.
this is anecdotal, but at my school (CCN) there is a ridiculous number of california students. i haven't asked them, but i assume it's because they weren't good enough for stanford but didn't think boalt was as good as CCN.

and acceptance rate doesn't mean much. they can be gamed and the boalt application rate is increased by the fact that it is public and, like you said, is the only game in town. not admitting a lot of inadequate students doesn't say anything about the quality of students who actually attend. boalt's lsat numbers speak to this.

also, you getting into every school except for HYS+B could mean that you had a relatively low gpa, as those are the 4 biggest sticklers for gpas. it means boalt values different things than the rest of the t14 but it does not mean it's more selective or it's better. after all, there are far more students out there with 3.8+ gpas than there are students with 170+ lsats.

401 - Relax, buddy. Much more important things in life than yelling at somebody over the Internet. See below.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

To David at IU-B:

NYC biglaw is lame. Get a life.

401 - And I said "number" of students, not "percentage" - a slight misread on your part; top 20 for percentage anyway. Alright, now you can start yelling at everybody again.

400 - I bet GW would get a bump in the rankings if its students knew how to properly use a phrase like "for all intents and purposes."

362,

First, people "blindly" accept NYU as top 5 because of the rankings what they represent. It uses factual, hard numeric data plus subjective factors from those in academia and practice to come to its result. And that result places NYU where it is, consistently over that period.

Second, look at objective factors. It is very difficult to obtain admission. The student body is highly competitive and accomplished in relation to its peers, and above those ranked lower for the most part. It has great employment prospects, even outside of New York City. Its teaching faculty are preeminent scholars in every field. You'd be "blind" not to see it.

409 - Can you do all of us a favor and check grammar, usage and spelling for the 408 - oops 409 - other posts on here?

SOME SERIOUS UCHICAGO TROLLING GOING ON! Ha!

I'm at Columbia, and I laugh when Chicago trolls group Columbia, NYU and Chicago in the same breath. I think there's Berkeley in between us.

UCLA is so superior to "Vanderbilt" and Cornell, I have to wonder how both of those relics hang on to the top 40. I'd say more but have to get back to work. Vanderbilt? Cornell? What a joke!

The student body at NYU is not highly competitive or accomplished relative to its peers, if by "peers" you mean Chicago or Columbia. (Let alone e.g.., Stanford or Harvard or Yale). That's why everyone has been bitching about NYU for the last 3 years--because the average NYU student doesn't match up to the average T6 student at the other 5 places. And I'd take that bet all along the spectrum, meaning, for any given class rank, out of the T6, the NYU guy is going to come in last time after time.

That doesn't mean NYU isn't a great school. But it is overrated, even given its relative 'greatness'. NYU:T6 as Stanford:T3.

Can we talk about something that matters, please? Like why kids making 160k still wear suits that look like they're straight off the JC Penney clearance rack? Your sleeves are too long. The jacket covers up the back of your collar. Your pants are too baggy, you look like Master P. You wear red dress shirts. Your shoes still have rubber soles. Your tie reflects sunlight into my eyes (50% rayon, very nice!) The list could go on for pages...and with all of this, you still managed to get ahold of the gaudiest gold Rolex you could lay your hands off, probably second-hand from one of Gotti's crew. This is the true crisis facing the legal world today.

- Disgruntled Partner

401

the complaint is simple: it's absurd that a school that is t15-17 in median admit stats and t18 in nlj 250 placement is ranked behind schools like iowa, indiana, and w&m. it ain't trolling; it's a simple matter of objectivity - either you can recognize the absurdity o the situation or you can't.

the methodology will change once USNWR realizes that the end result of this adjustment is the wide spread persecution of PT law students.

Tom Wolfe (the author, for those of you at GW) said this:

What a stupid joke! Here is this third-rate news weekly, aimed at businessmen who don’t like to read, trying desperately to move up in the race but forever swallowing the dust of Time and Newsweek, and some character dreams up a circulation gimmick: Let’s rank the colleges. Let’s stir up a fuss. Pretty soon all of American higher education is jumping through hoops to meet the standards of the marketing department of a miserable, lowbrow magazine out of Washington, D.C.! Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford . . . —all jumped through the hoop at the crack of the U.S. News whip!

414 = Bitter Chicago Troll Rejected by NYU

"Wasn't NYU #9 mereley 5-10 years ago? Why does everyone blindly accept it as a top 5 now?"

-

NYU has been ranked as a top 6 school since at least the mid-90s. The very first ranking by US News had it as #9 in 1987, but it's been ranked as 7 or above ever since then. (No, I didn't know that off the top of my head, I googled it--I'm somewhat of a douche, but not that big of one.)

Anyway, its faculty is unquestionably top 5 at this point, rankings be damned, and you could make an argument over whether it's top 5 in terms of admissions or jobs, but that argument would consist of "where does it stand vs. Columbia & Chicago" not vs. a school like Penn or Michigan. When it comes to lower T10 schools, NYU is tougher to get into, has better job prospects, and has a better faculty, so I don't see what you're going to base it on if you're going to say it should be ranked there.

"414 = Bitter Chicago Troll Rejected by NYU"

-

Seriously, they're never going to get over Epstein, are they?

Can't blame 'em, that was quite a blow.

The reason GULC didnt fall out of the T-14 even though the evening program was factored in is because in 2006 at least, GULC's evening LSAT median was 169. That is why including the part-time program does not lower GULC's rankings. Getting into GULC part time is harder than getting into the full time program at a lot of schools below it.

Well, I'm at Harvard and my firm this past summer still didn't invite me back after I did crappy work, so we should all shut the hell up

The Chicago trolling is out of control. It's a good school, nobody is disputing that, you don't have to tear down all the schools ranked around you to give yourselves legitimacy. Columbia, NYU, and Boalt are good too! At least with C and N, the 3 student bodies are mostly interchangeable, both in reality and according to the stats.

"That's why everyone has been bitching about NYU for the last 3 years--because the average NYU student doesn't match up to the average T6 student at the other 5 places."

NYU has the exact same LSAT numbers as Chicago and a slightly better GPA.

It has the same GPA numbers as Columbia and slightly worse LSAT numbers, but that's varied from year to year.

So your argument is based on what?

While GW may now be the laughingstock of tier 1 schools, the REAL story is how Brooklyn managed to hoodwink USNEWS by hiding the very existence of their PT program:

http://lawschoolheadlines.com/?p=334

415- You are so much better than our resident fake partner. Can you get an avatar and stick around?

The Dean of the University of Baltimore School of Law predicted that within 5 years, the school will be top 100, I wonder who will be replaced. Judging by the quality of the lawyers I run into from American and Catholic, their over-inflated cost to quality ratio is sure to see them in tier 4 soon.

The Dean of the University of Baltimore School of Law predicted that within 5 years, the school will be top 100, I wonder who will be replaced. Judging by the quality of the lawyers I run into from American and Catholic, their over-inflated cost to quality ratio is sure to see them in tier 4 soon.

I just hope Iowa City doesn't flood again from the GW tears . . .

Why would anyone go to a school without a major college football team? NERDS!!!

I just hope Iowa City doesn't flood again from the GW tears . . .

Why would anyone go to a school without a major college football team? NERDS!!!

Look 406/408, you come off as a smarmy douche, but I don't necessarily disagree with your point. I was no more yelling at you than any commenter on this blog yells at any other commenter.

You sound like you're dumb and I was just throwing a jab at GW because of that. You seemingly had no idea that "intensive purposes" is not the phrase you were looking for. You also make the disingenous argument that GW has the "6th highest placement of students in in big law firms". In common parlance, at least as I'm familiar with it, placement is used as a percentage. You made no reference to raw number of students (as you tried to imply later), and even if you did, the raw number is irrelevant. For placement to have any meaning, it must be a percentage of the class.

But you're right in substance. GW is a fine school and has T20-caliber placement. It should be ranked at least in the T25. Schadenfreude (particularly around finals) can be a nice relief.

-401

WOW..... CHICAGO INSECURITY!

You guys should really stop, you're giving yourselves a bad name here with all the trolling.

It's a goddamn magazine ranking... don't let it create a chip on your shoulders.... Next time I interview one of you guys I'll make sure you're not coming with that chip because it always causes problems with our NYU and Columbia associates. It's happened already with UPenn guys who feel like they have something to prove and end up being horrible to work with (especially if the other associates on the team went to higher-ranked schools).

Don't let a magazine affect you this much. The top 7 or 8 schools are all fantastic.

FACT: 98% of Columbia Law wishes they had gotten into Harvard Law, and would have gone there otherwise.

man i fucking hate lawyers

433:
FACT: 98% of law school students would have gone to Harvard Law if accepted.

Okay it's not a fact, but the number is probably in the 90's. What's your point?

- YHSCCN student but not in either H or Columbia LS

401 - Thanks for all of the insults. Sorry about my typo. And actually, if you interpret the word "intensive" as meaning serious, then the phrase makes perfect sense. What's more, this is a BLOG. I know, I know, I should have really pored over my post, gone through several drafts, etc., which I'm sure you do, because U R a LOSER. And I know those are letters, but if the point of language is to communicate, then I'm sure you get the message. If not, then here it is again: You are a loser. Now go return to your unhappy little life...

401 - Oh, and I'm a law student wasting time instead of studying for finals. You are a loser who has too much time on his hands, no friends, and nothing to do. Go back to work where people tolerate...I mean, enjoy talking to you.

Can anyone explain how a place like carbozo (probably the 5th best in the largest legal market) is ranked ahead of a place like UF (which is widely acknowledged as the best in the state...and has some pull in ATL)? Also factoring in the full price to attend these law schools, how is a place like carbozo or even a place like american ranked higher?

Law students should only care about job prospects and low tuition.

436/437

a couple of quick thoughts:

1) don't ever try to legitimize "all intensive purposes." you train wrecked. move on.

2) he / she mentioned the particular applicability of schadenfreude during, well, none other than finals

and

3) he / she ended on a semi-conciliatory tone; i.e. that GW FT has t20 chops despite the sub-iowa designation

so really, wtf?

as if we need to add further fuel to fire at this point (translation: please stop, you're making us look bad)

-the rest of the GW student body

436/437 - I sincerely hope you're flame. Good luck on finals.

-401/431

394 - I tend to agree. The current rankings methodology is an overcompensation for any gaming that might have gone on. It punishes schools that attempt to provide a first rate education to working students that may be second career attorneys or have families to support. I know other top schools have thought about adding part time programs, but may hesitate to do so based on this. Not sure if they'll make a correction, but the change is certainly controversial.

413 - Why is Vanderbilt in quotes? I can assure you as an alumnus that the school is very really.

The rankings are live now http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings

242:

In recent years there has been a 1 point difference between GULC day and night students? Hardly.

GULC day 75/median/25: 171, 170, 167
GULC night 75/median/25: 167, 165, 160

This also makes 421's claim that the median LSAT for GULC night program was 169 in 2006 doubtful.

http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA5244.pdf

who here didn't choose a law school based on their athletic program? who needs Northwestern when Arkansas is dominating the SEC for the past 3 years!

427/428: Northeastern School of Law is determined drop into the third tier (77 to 94 in five years). Evaluations instead of grades, burned-out 1960's radicals for professors, no law review, costs more than BU or BC w/ minimal financial aid available (annual student budget is about $65k), and career services could not possibly be worse. Maybe 15% get biglaw. The place is a sad joke. Perhaps Baltimore will take their place.

the all intensive purposes thing is horrendous. no way that person goes to GW, probably NYLS or something.

for those of you that think brooklyn "gamed" the US News, it just doesn't seem to be the case. Brooklyn's part time stats are listed on its us news profile. Prob. just the crappy rankings messing things up again...

What is with all you dbags? Are you really this petty? By my cursory reading of the four-hundred odd posts, GULC hates their part-timers, GW is PISSED about falling a few spots and Penn State is now a top ten school (gotta love JoPa). Get over it people. Practicing law sucks. No one cares where you went to school. They only care if you're a boot-licking company man willing to sacrifice everything for the kleptomaniacal partners. Enjoy, douchies.

and to think I almost went to Vanderbilt... Way to go Emory

407,

David's not going to NYC.

Hong Kong

Who cares? Isn't U.S. News & World Report a blog now?

We had an associate from Emory. Notice the past-tense verb there... worst hire we have made in the last twelve years. Dumber than a pile of twinkies. Emory will go back down in the rankings. On that note, so will WUSTL, because STL is irrelevant to the rest of America.

We had an associate from Emory. Notice the past-tense verb there... worst hire we have made in the last twelve years. Dumber than a pile of twinkies. Emory will go back down in the rankings. On that note, so will WUSTL, because STL is irrelevant to the rest of America.

453, let me guess. People don't like you and your life isn't going very well. You now compensate by trashing people and their institutions of higher learning in offhand anonymous comments on a message board. Pretty cool.

UCLA Law is very underrated -- much more difficult to get admitted at UCLA than at many of the T10-T15 --- also, the school has a fantastic location with great job prospects in the second biggest legal market in the country

OK - so schools like GW and Fordham will decrease their PT program, throw a TON of money around over the next two or three years to get their gpa/lsat numbers back up, and double the size of their transfer class to generate revenue, a la WUSTL. No?

388, 389, 390

Learn how to post correctly before trying to insult someone.

Chicago is doing fine.

It's #6 in USNWR, usually #2-3 on many of Leiter's rankings, and proudly one millionth on the Cooley rankings. I also believe it's something like 5th on the Vault rankings.

No complaints from this chicago student. And btw, most chicago students are actually very friendly.

If any chicago student has a beef with these rankings, don't sweat it.

As for GW...maybe there's some reason to be a bit more worried. Sorry mates.

I guess this shows what a difference there is between T14 and below. If they included GULC's PT #s and they still beat Vandy, UT and UCLA, then that says a lot about this strange designation.

455: When did LA become a larger market than DC, NYC, or for that matter, SF?

459 --- UCLA and Texas are one point (not just one spot, but one point) behind G-Town --- its grip on spot 14 is not that strong

it's hard to believe most of the people posting here got into any law school, however poorly ranked by whatever fatuous, overblown ranking system. 14 and 35, your daddy must have donated a wing to get you into law school; you certainly didn't make it in on the strength of your scores on the logical reasoning section of the LSAT. i'm sure that GW is just as good of a school as it was three years ago when my daughter started there, but i sure as hell wish she'd gone to Minnesota, where she would have gotten just as good of an education, without being encumbered by astronomical debt.

460: LA is clearly not a bigger legal market than NYC. It is probably a larger market than the DC market. It certainly has a stronger legal market than SF. How many SF-based firms of any significance still exist? All I can think of is MoFo, and it's not that significant.

I'm an associate at one of the top BigLaw firms in CA. Is Loyola Law really as bad as it's number 71 ranking would imply? (no, I did not go there ---- much, much better CA law school). Though I don't know anyone from my firm who went there, I still feel like they have a decent BigLaw presence in LA (at least their top 10%). It must be bigger than the presence of Iowa or Alabama in NYC or DC?

West Coasters: From what I can tell, Loyola is more "prestigious" than Pepperdine. True?

East Coasters --- Do TTTs have BigLaw presences in the major East Coast law firms?

458,

Agreed. The chicago people need to calm down.

If they want something to suck on and make themselves feel proud...they can point to being #2 in the AmLaw 100 placements. Or they can spout off about clerkships or academia or whatever.

Chicago's not dropping out of the top 6 again any time soon, so stop crying.

I personally think that Berkeley is a super school. If they're not #6, they should be #7...but if they're #7...then we should start calling it T7 instead of T6. Berekeley deserves it.

What makes LA a larger market than DC??

463 - depends on what you mean by significant. Besides MoFo, the other vault firms with NorCal roots are Wilson Sonsini, Orrick, Pillsbury, Cooley, Bingham McCutcheon, and Fenwick. In some areas, these firms are fantastic, but they typically don't have great NYC style practice. MoFo is probably the strongest NorCal firm nationally, but hasn't quite bridged the gap outside of the region like Latham (pre-meltdown), Kirkland, and Gibson were able to.

466- What you mean people can't just throw around wild statements that are in no way accurate, and still be taken seriously? Jeez you're such a jerk...

461, you must be kidding. GULC has been top 14 forever. Its LSAT/GPA medians are much higher than UCLA and UT, and they have been higher than several schools ranked above it for years. Even with its PT program, which brats on this board like to complain about, it is still top 14. UCLA/UT can't touch it stats-wise. Plus GULC has a national presence and places grads all over the country and in biglaw firms in all major markets. UCLA/UT are primarily regional schools.

Enough is enough. Say your school should have done better if you want, but stop making stereotypical presumptions about other schools. I'm a 1L at Indiana this year- I also had my pick of just about ANY law school in the nation. I CHOSE Indiana because it had just as rigorous a program as the top ten schools, and the environment was actually enjoyable. The students, while competitive, are not cut-throat. The faculty is wildly impressive and accessible. Our alumni practice all over the world with heavy deposits in Washington, New York, and California.

Well over half the class is from out of state- people like me who chose objectively and didn't base their choice off of anyone's subjective opinions. We're a group of people who want to (and do) earn our esteem, not have it arbitrarily placed upon us by the name on our diplomas. Indiana is a world-class, NATIONAL law school, and its about time someone took an objective look and gave it the credit it deserves (Don't take my word for it - google our alumni and see for yourself).

Sometimes, I drop in on ole' ATL just to confirm my suspicion that law school was awful largely because of the awful people. SUCK-O-RAMA.

You all realize that US News is a gimmick (albeit a well entrenched one), and law school is an out-dated educational right of passage that has almost nothing to do with the actual practice of law? In other words: If you got into Harvard or NYU or Yale or Chicago or any other T20 school, congrats. It means you rocked the LSAT and did well in your pursuit of a meaningless undergrad liberal arts degree. That, plus everything you will learn in law school, will get you a cup of coffee and a job at a big law firm. Once at the big law firm, you will commence learning EVERYTHING you ACTUALLY need to know about being a BigLaw attorney (Hint: you didn't learn it in law school).

Now, if you got accepted to a snazzy law school, it means that, relatively speaking, you are pretty bright. You read well, you write well, you reason well, etc. But what law school you go to is just a reflection of how well you do those things-the law school won't make you a better or worse lawyer. It is just a process by which law schools make money, and employers weed out prospective employees.

So, if you all want to cut to the chase and mindlessly compete with each other about what actually "matters", why don't you just trade LSAT scores, GPAs and undergrad resumes? This fixation on the schools themselves is cute but stupid.

Enough is enough. Say your school should have done better if you want, but stop making stereotypical presumptions about other schools. I'm a 1L at Indiana this year- I also had my pick of just about ANY law school in the nation. I CHOSE Indiana because it had just as rigorous a program as the top ten schools, and the environment was actually enjoyable. The students, while competitive, are not cut-throat. The faculty is wildly impressive and accessible. Our alumni practice all over the world with heavy deposits in Washington, New York, and California.

Well over half the class is from out of state- people like me who chose objectively and didn't base their choice off of anyone's subjective opinions. We're a group of people who want to (and do) earn our esteem, not have it arbitrarily placed upon us by the name on our diplomas. Indiana is a world-class, NATIONAL law school, and its about time someone took an objective look and gave it the credit it deserves (Don't take my word for it - google our alumni and see for yourself).

472 - I hope you are willing to work in Chicago (not that there's anything wrong with that, it's a great city).

Anybody here on Law Review? I am on Law Review bitches! We get free donuts every Friday. Suck it. My note was epic. Your jouranl is for morons, FYI. Bad-ass. People who weren't on Law Review at a T10 school should just f*cking give up on life, right? I mean, seriously. Those TTT bound losers. What a joke. It makes me sick thinking about it. I mean, really, right? I am so right. You guys all agree. Its cool, we all know how awesome we are. We rock. Our schools are so freaking sweet. Those other schools are crap, and they know it. We sure as sh*t know it. Not in NYC? Please. Die. Go back to your fly-over state and curl up and die. Nice. Sweet. TTT! I know-I love that one. Dude, TTT, its the best acronym on ATL. Better than GULC or GW or V100. Totally. ATL man, better than sex. I mean, not really right, but you know what I mean. Sex is awesome, and I know all about that! I have TONS of sex. Its sweet. I party too. PARTY! With my sweet friends. Fun and friends and sex, no shortage of that around my apartment! Nice. Gotta go work on my color-coded outline now. Sweet.

Thanks 471. And some us know that you are right. But even you stipulated T20. Some us just moved into the T20 which is cool (and of course, now all of the sudden I put more stock in the rankings than ever. They're perfect and have never been more accurate!). Btw it occurs to me that there are 22 schools in the T20. That's a little awkward.

Anybody here on Law Review? I am on Law Review bitches! We get free donuts every Friday. Suck it. My note was epic. Your jouranl is for morons, FYI. Bad-ass. People who weren't on Law Review at a T10 school should just f*cking give up on life, right? I mean, seriously. Those TTT bound losers. What a joke. It makes me sick thinking about it. I mean, really, right? I am so right. You guys all agree. Its cool, we all know how awesome we are. We rock. Our schools are so freaking sweet. Those other schools are crap, and they know it. We sure as sh*t know it. Not in NYC? Please. Die. Go back to your fly-over state and curl up and die. Nice. Sweet. TTT! I know-I love that one. Dude, TTT, its the best acronym on ATL. Better than GULC or GW or V100. Totally. ATL man, better than sex. I mean, not really right, but you know what I mean. Sex is awesome, and I know all about that! I have TONS of sex. Its sweet. I party too. PARTY! With my sweet friends. Fun and friends and sex, no shortage of that around my apartment! Nice. Gotta go work on my color-coded outline now. Sweet.

476 is funny.

471- Have you ever wrote a book?

I am 476. Sweet. ATL, a reckoning is upon you. Batten your proverbial hatches. A tempest cometh.

I am 476. Your faults are legion, and I intend to make you suffer for them.

Stay sh*tty, ass-clowns.

Calm the hell down with all the Brooklyn Law talk ? USNWR obviously know they have a PT program because all the data is on the USNWR website - the magazine just screwed up by printing the wrong numbers in the ranking - not the first time it has screwed up.

I know - it is more fun to claim Brooklyn "gamed" the system blah blah blah but anyone who followed any of the ranking know that USNWR consistently make some dumb mistakes over and over again with some of the numbers.

Anyone who is getting all worked up over who gained one spot or lost one spot needs to get a life. Go outside and take a deep breathe - you need some sunlight.

The only ranking that matters is what law firms think of your school.

GW falling 10 spots? Who cares? Employers still consider it better in than most of the other schools in the 20's. Firms will continue flocking to it.

Cardozo going to 49? Who cares? It is still way behind Fordham in the NYC pecking order and still or even behind Brooklyn in the eyes of many partners. Firms don't adjust their behavior based on USNWR. They look at how many associates they have from a certain school and which partner got pull.

Indiana moving up? Emory at 20? Good luck getting a job in NYC.

I don't want a job in NYC.

Hey, Penn, UVA, Michigan and all the rest... You lost!

So, give it up and stop arguing stupid things against Berkeley's, Chicago's and NYU's ranking.

Your schools aren't that bad... you should do better. At least I hope you do better than that in court.

A bon entendeur...

Hey, Penn, UVA, Michigan and all the rest... You lost!

So, give it up and stop arguing stupid things against Berkeley's, Chicago's and NYU's ranking.

Your schools aren't that bad... you should do better. At least I hope you do better than that in court.

A bon entendeur...

Hey dumbasses, here are the current rankings of UC BERKELEY:

World Ranking 3rd
National Ranking 3rd
Sociology Ranking 1st
Computer Sciences Ranking 1st
Psychology Ranking 1st
History Ranking 1st
English Ranking 1st
Chemistry Ranking 1st
Biological Sciences Ranking 2nd
Mathematics Ranking 2nd
Engineering Ranking 3rd
Physics Ranking 3rd
Earth Sciences Ranking 4th
Law Ranking 6th
Public Affairs Ranking 6th
Economics Ranking 6th
Political Sciences Ranking 6th
Business Ranking 7th
Education Ranking 7th

No other university in the Nation can match that, even Harvurd!

And yes, Berkeley is state-owned but owned by the great State of California, which may have financial troubles indeed, but not more than the United States of America, which remain the richest and most powerful country in the world though. The State of California remains richer and more powerful than ANY OTHER state in the country, incl. Texas or New York.

So remember whom you are dealing with when arguing about Boalt Hall and do not be surprised if you find it in the top 3 in the very near future when their new facilities are completed.

467: you're clearly a 1L or 0L if you think kirkland is an LA firm.

"I'm a 1L at Indiana this year- I also had my pick of just about ANY law school in the nation. I CHOSE Indiana because it had just as rigorous a program as the top ten schools, and the environment was actually enjoyable. The students, while competitive, are not cut-throat. The faculty is wildly impressive and accessible. Our alumni practice all over the world with heavy deposits in Washington, New York, and California."

i'm just gonna go out on a limb and call you a liar. it's one thing if you had your pick of "any law school in the country" and went to Indiana because you got a full ride or because you're from indiana, but NOBODY goes to Indiana for the reasons you described.

rigorous? T10s are more rigorous because they have better student bodies

enjoyable? plenty of T10s have enjoyable and colleageal atmospheres. if you actually got admitted you would have found that out. in fact, they're infinitely more enjoyable because everybody is secure in knowing they'll have a job so they compete less

faculty? your faculty might be good compared to peer schools but they are clearly inferior to T10 schools' faculty

placement? this one is just ridiculous. NOBODY goes to Indiana because it places as well as a T10 school. It's not even on that list of top 25 or so placements in the NLJ250. maybe you place well in relation to your peer schools, but if you want to go to a "national" school, you don't go to Indiana.

Penn State students are the clear winners. Tuition is next to nothing, and it comes up better than Michigan, Duke, and Georgetown.

Penn State Law charges private school rates and does not have a separate rate for in-state students. Temple and Pitt are the only cheap law schools in PA.

I go to Northwestern and I have sex a lot.

486: upenn and penn state aren't the same school. upenn charges standard tuition.

Widener > GW

472, I've worked at a couple large biglaw firms on the east coast and I have never met an Indiana grad. I'm pretty sure there's no one at my current or previous firms that went there. So not sure what type of bs they're feeding you about leaving the midwest. 1-2 students a year getting a job in NYC or DC isn't anything to brag about.

464,

I elected to go there over Pepperdine despite what the rankings said. Recall the part-time division impacts the rank, which I don't believe Pepperdine has one.

GW is such a great school. Seriously. Their professors are phenomenal and the students are smart. I also think that most people who go to law school ANYWHERE and can make it through the 3 or 4 years are pretty impressive people. So please everyone, let's just be friends.

Why can't GULC move up when it has such a tremendous location?

20: The "ent" at the end of your sig is missing.

492 - your post indicates that your standards are so low that your positive comment on GW was actually back-handed. Fuck you.

- Angry GW student (jettison the part timers NOW)

492 - your post indicates that your standards are so low that your positive comment on GW was actually back-handed. Fuck you.

- Angry GW student (jettison the part timers NOW)

I'm graduating from GW next month and I can say with pride that I've received an incredible education. Was it worth the money? Well, I have a job at a V20 firm, so yes. I'm not that bothered by the change in rankings - we'll be back in the top 20. Just wait.

I'm graduating from GW next month and I can say with pride that I've received an incredible education. Was it worth the money? Well, I have a job at a V20 firm, so yes. I'm not that bothered by the change in rankings - we'll be back in the top 20. Just wait.

Who is the Dean at GW? Isn't it the same guy who took over 100 days to complete criminal law exams for 1Ls?

235 You are a d!@k, small and flaccid

Sincerely,

UDC Law, GW Law, CU Law, HU Law, AU Law

(even though EVERYBODY at AU Law really wanted to got to GULC)

235 You are a d!@k, small and flaccid

Sincerely,

UDC Law, GW Law, CU Law, HU Law, AU Law

(even though EVERYBODY at AU Law really wanted to got to GULC)

480 - Emory is practically a regional NY school based in Atlanta. Its easier to get a job in NY from Emory than it is to land one in Atlanta or DC. At least that was my experience. And I'm not from any of those 4 cities.

3 cities. Oops.

you're all a bunch of tools

Right on 484:

Berkeley is the most comprehensively prestigious academic institution in the world. The law school would be even higher if there were no yield-protection/anti-west coast bias/baseless coddling of Stanfurd.

SLS students are just like their undergrads: afraid to take on the competition at bigger schools like Harvard, Berkeley, Columbia, NYU and want free pass onto law review. Props though for Stanfurd Engineering..almost as good as MIT and CalTech.

Can't wait to come home this summer!

and GO BEARS!

- One of many Berkeley alumni at HLS

504 hit it on the head

You are arguing about law school rankings by a mediocre magazine? Partners at the best M&A law firms and from the best Law Schools want my job and portfolio, even if it is down 45%. I got rich, got bailed out and your start dates are being deferred.

Sincerely,
Wall Street Banker
(BTW - things are slow but my short game was never better)

504 hit it on the head

You are arguing about law school rankings by a mediocre magazine? Partners at the best M&A law firms and from the best Law Schools want my job and portfolio, even if it is down 45%. I got rich, got bailed out and your start dates are being deferred.

Sincerely,
Wall Street Banker
(BTW - things are slow but my short game was never better)

Hey 485 - the over-eager IU 1L was being a bit of a tool, but he's basically right. You're correct to note that he overstated things - NO law school has a "collegial" atmosphere, and seriously, "rigorous?" The hell? What 1L could tell anyway?

I knew a lot of "No- We're the BEST," tools like this at IU, and it gets annoying But you, dear 485, are a moron.

IU deserves its spot, and I hated my time there but I'm still happy to have donated my LSAT to the cause. The administration has focused on nothing but this jump for the past 10 years. They killed themselves to increase the prestige and to meet every possible factor that matters to US News.

I don't know how much it matters - the school is still in Indiana and the market is rough - but for the people that care, IU jumped through every hoop out there.

You know nothing, little 485, nothing at all. So shut it.

Hey 485 - the over-eager IU 1L was being a bit of a tool, but he's basically right. You're correct to note that he overstated things - NO law school has a "collegial" atmosphere, and seriously, "rigorous?" The hell? What 1L could tell anyway?

I knew a lot of "No- We're the BEST," tools like this at IU, and it gets annoying But you, dear 485, are a moron.

IU deserves its spot, and I hated my time there but I'm still happy to have donated my LSAT to the cause. The administration has focused on nothing but this jump for the past 10 years. They killed themselves to increase the prestige and to meet every possible factor that matters to US News.

I don't know how much it matters - the school is still in Indiana and the market is rough - but for the people who care, IU jumped through every hoop out there.

You know nothing, little 485, nothing at all. So shut it.

As for the "no one hires Indiana," comment. Um, yeah, they're doing about the same as everyone else in the vast 14-50 range. I don't know what the placement is like in NY or Cali.

However, I do know that they are all over D.C.

IU Prof Dawn Johnsen just took over at the Office of Legal Counsel, an IU grad heads the District Department of Transportation, and we had a handful of new grads the Hill last year (including one in Ted Kennedy's committee office). I can name people from my class in government relations with big law, at the GAO, the DOC, and CBP. I know older alumni who work for the Department of State, one who is considered a leader in the Historic Preservation field, and one who is general counsel for PBS.

It may be due to the horrible market in Indiana, but we are starting to kind of own this town.

Well, "own" might be overstating it :)

Anyway, for a school that graduates about 200 each year, I think at least 20 % of the last few classes have ended up in DC, and our profs and alumni are much more highly placed than people expect.

Loyola LA's 71 ranking is so odd and ri