1st

If you go here- http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/usd-law-jumps-in-2010-us-news-rankings/; the rankings, which are identical, look much more credible.

Are you THAT BEHIND THE BALL? There are several sites with full-color photos of these. You're about 12 hours late.

GW @ 28

official copy on TLS:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69258

UVA is still the best place to study law--no contest..

Number 3, posting again:

You'll want to remove that semicolon from the end of the link.

http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/usd-law-jumps-in-2010-us-news-rankings/

I GO TO A TOP 28 LAW SCHOOL

GW STUD

Fordham is tied with ALABAMA...hahahahahahahaha

seriously - way late. if you're going to break this so late, at least use current info.

what do you think it means if all the T10 students at my V30 were URMs?

Note that the rankings that were leaked have cornell's 25th for GPA dropping to 3.24. Grain of salt, indeed.

GW falls to #28...how TTTrageic. Let the carnage begin!

G-Town doesn't seem to have that solid a grip on spot 14 --- UCLA & Texas each only one point behind? Vanderbilt only two, and USC one? I predict that if any of them eventually overtake G-Town, it will be UCLA ... probably a year or two

G-Town doesn't seem to have that solid a grip on spot 14 --- UCLA & Texas each only one point behind? Vanderbilt only two, and USC three? I predict that if any of them eventually overtake G-Town, it will be UCLA ... probably a year or two

So basically Berkeley ties Chicago and GW falls to 28. For DC people, GMU appeared to fall a bit.

Other than that, not much to see here, IMHO.

Its gonna be an ugly scene at Penns admissions office...

NINEIGAN!

This is the frickenist frackenist craziest list I ever seen. University of Texas is #1. All those Yankee la

GW got massacred at OCI last year.

The real stories here? Syracuse to Tier 3, Suffolk and Pace to Tier 4, and Seton Hall's large unqualified part time class is starting to sink their rankings.

Weird. This top 14 list has an eerie resemblance to the list of schools that LATHAM can NEVER RECRUIT FROM again. American, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Rutgers, Syracuse and Buffalo, here comes Latham. Fordham, you are now a reach school for Latham aka the kings of new york.

Are Sijan's rankings legit???

W&L is a TTT in decline. Nice slide from 18ish to 20 in a matter of 3 years.

No way are these real. GW isn't going to be 28 (sorry everyone). Also, Iowa is always in the top 30. It'd be an easy school to forget if you were making one up.

How the hell are Stanfor and Berkeley still ranked so high? It has to be the bar passage...everything else is weak, except their inflated GPA's.

Columbia should be #3. Followed by S/NYU/Ch tie. Then Berkeley at 7.

Duke higher than VA? No way. VA/Mich/Penn tie for #7.

NW at 10, and then...well, who cares.

How the fuck did Indiana jump so high? that must be a record for schools within the T1.

Shall we make the division at T5 (HYSCN) instead of T6? seems like Chicago is down for good.

W&L is a TTT in decline. Nice slide from 18ish to 30 in a matter of 3 years.

outrageous GULC trolling

24 is an angry ex W&Ler who x-fered to umich

Someone scanned a copy of the magazine, looks legit.

Go 1/2 down page to post at 1:54 AM.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69258&start=500

Top 14 is such an arbitrary cut-off. Why not top 15? or top 20? Anti-UCLA bias or anti-Texas bias? Must be one of the two!

Someone scanned a copy of the magazine, looks legit.

Go 1/2 down page to post at 2:53 AM (correction)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69258&start=500

Morons -- these are real. This was a pre-release, and the real thing is on TLS.

#26 -- Agreed, Columbia should be #3. Why can't Stanford attract the higher LSATs?

Speaking, I'm Sure, for both UCLA and Texas, Eff Vandy. Where's that "We are the new G-town killer" or "We are the top 15" talk now?

The T18, along with everything else on this list for the most part, remains unchanged.

UCLA, please don't move up to top 14 or we will have to recruit solely from Loyola and Pepperdine.

-Latham LA Hiring Committee

I doubt this is accurate. Anyone in-the-know knows that Indiana - Bloomington should have jumped much higher than to just 23rd.

Go GaTTTors

Why do you say -- "Its gonna be an ugly scene at Penns admissions office..." ?

27

From the information posted, Chicago looks better than Berkeley in nearly every category except for GPA. But GPA is easily manipulated, so I'm not sure I put much stock in that.

Otherwise, Chicago looks nearly indistinguishable from NYU.

Keep top 6, and if you want to let Berkeley squeeze in as well...sure, fine. Berkeley's always been underranked anyway.

UVA has a 99.1% NY Bar Passage Rate?
that's pretty insane if true.

better than everybody but H.
why is Y's bar passage rate so low?? almost as low as cornell!!

22/37 (clearly the same person) seems to taken their Latham ding rather personally. It's alright little buddy. Get back up on that horse.

27

From the information posted, Chicago looks better than Berkeley in nearly every category except for GPA. But GPA is easily manipulated, so I'm not sure I put much stock in that.

Otherwise, Chicago looks nearly indistinguishable from NYU.

Keep top 6, and if you want to let Berkeley squeeze in as well...sure, fine. Berkeley's always been underranked anyway.

I think GW has a good case for promissory estoppel.

Truth:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Columbia
3. Stanford
5. NYU
5. Chicago
7. Penn
8. UVA
8. Berkeley
10. Michigan
11. Northwestern
11. Duke
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown
14. UCLA

22/37 (clearly the same person) seems to taken their Latham ding rather personally. It's alright little buddy. Get back up on that horse.

46's transparent strategy is to troll for a number of schools (Columbia, Chicago, UCLA) so that we can't determine what school he or she attends.

i would guess Chicago. The UCLA is just too blatant.

How can Illinois and Indiana be much higher than GW and Washington and Lee?

"OperaSoprano" at top-law-schools.com has the actual magazine, bought early this morning at Penn Station. The copy at CriticalBadger is a bit different format-wise, but the content, I think is the same.

Serious Q: Is Texas really on par with UCLA? I know Texas is a good school, but from what I can tell UCLA is viewed as slightly more prestigious.

Also, I've never met a Vanderbilt attorney.

If a student relied on these fake rankings when making a decision as to where to go to school, could the student then bring a reliance action (ie promissory estoppel) against the people who leaked and / or published the fake rankings? Is Restatement 90 silent on this or not?

Regardless of whether these rankings are real im not suprised to see GW flirting with 30. Median LSAT went from 165 two years ago to 167 and then back back to either 164 or 165 this year. Plus 25 is right, GW OCI did get massacred. Ironically, it seems like alot of lower ranked students got V50 jobs while alot of the top ranked kids are still looking. I'm obviously not working with a full sampling but from my perspective it looked like a pretty weird upside-down cycle.

32, it's the T14 since those schools (in varying orders) have been the top 14 since the start of the rankings.

That being said, you're right it is totally arbitrary.

Texas.

How is Berkley ahead of U of Chicago? Swap the two and you have a legit ranking.

How is Berkley ahead of U of Chicago? Swap the two and you have a legit ranking.

The data is flawed. W&L's median LSAT is 166...but this report shows it 166 as the 75th percentile? This is bogus or the U.S. News and World Report people can't transcribe numbers.

Obviously it's a joke:

U of Maryland at 43
U of Georgia at 35
U of Washington at 30
U of Alabama at 30
U of Iowa at 26
U of Minnesota at 20
U of Texas-Austin at 15

I mean seriously.... Who would want to study at any of these locations?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't HLS and Stanford tied before? Why, yes they were. -HLS student

In addition to teaching Texis Law, does Texis also provide courses on how to care for and tend to a 3500 sq ft wife?

Where is Section 90 guy when you really need him?

U Michigan? Seriously? Give me a break.

N. Wacker Stud

Hope TTTim TTTebow and the GaTTTors like it in the TTT.

@48--

Have you looked at the data? Columbia should clearly beat Stanford. I don't see how in hell Stanford remains at #3.

Chicago and NYU are indistinguishable from the #s.

And I've always thought UCLA and GULC were comparable.

I would say that Berkeley should be ahead of Penn, however.

--41, not 46

Wow, that LATHAM ASSociate who got laid off sure is bitter. I guess he has lots of free time now to spew his vitriol on blogs. Loser.

Hope TTTim TTTebow and the GaTTTors like it in the TTT.

woohoo...US News confirms that my penis is bigger than everyone else's!!

elie, you lazy douche, there are full color photos of all tiers at TLS. the list is real.

How is it possible that NYU has such a high acceptance rate? it must be because less non-top applicants apply right? it seems very high that 1/4 people get into that school.

I saw this issue of US News in the magazine store at Penn Station yesterday. I have always thought that Elie was not that bad, but I am kind of losing my patience.

Yale has a law school?

51: Why don't check out the peer assessment and practitioners' assessment.

Both are higher.

That being said UCLA=Texas. Both interchangeable

56,

Chicago and Berkeley are tied at 6. They go in alphabetical order.

Idiot.

Second page, please!

Media conformation that the T14 exists.

Why is NYU Law ranked so high when its undergrad. is ranked so much lower? Same goes for Texas.

confirmation, that is

46: Almost.

Truth:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Columbia
3. Stanford
5. NYU
5. Chicago
7. Penn
8. Berkeley
9. UVA
10. Michigan
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
14. Georgetown
15. UCLA

43/47 (clearly the same person) seems to have taken the fact that he has not yet been fired personally. Relax little buddy. You will fall of the horse next month.

UVA'S PROBLEMS:

1. Insisting on accepting freakin 40% in-state!

2. Hiring too many brand new profs with NO experience, rather than poaching proven stars from lower ranked schools. It's lovely to have the next-best thing on faculty -- until they leave for harvard.

#1 is the biggest issue. And since uva is 100% independent of state funding, i'm not sure why in the hell it feels compelled to accept 40% in state. I understand that uva law is affiliated with UVA, but 25% is more reasonable. VA isn't that big of a state!

A scanned second page of the rankings is on TLS. One of the TLS users actually found a newsstand that put out the issue before they were supposed to. The user put up all the scans on TLS (even Tier III and IV).

Better ranking:

(1) Yale.

[Big gap.]

(2) Harvard.
(3) Stanford.

[Big gap.]

(4) Columbia.
(4) Chicago.

[Small gap.]

(6) NYU.

[Big gap.]

(7) Penn.
(7) Michigan.
(7) Virginia.

[Small gap.]

(10) Berkeley.

[Big gap.]

(11) Northwestern.
(12) Cornell.
(12) Duke.
(14) GULC.

HTH.

What is a SMU?

HELLZ YEA PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL TROLLING VINDICATED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1240234810.shtml

HELLZ YEA PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL TROLLING VINDICATED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1240234810.shtml

HELLZ YEA PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL TROLLING VINDICATED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1240234810.shtml

HELLZ YEA PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL TROLLING VINDICATED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1240234810.shtml

Scroll down the page a bit to see T2 and all other rankings.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69258&start=575

Cardozo to T50!

83= GULC troll

What the hell happened to GW? I mean, other than the market finally correcting that school back to where it belongs?

NYU is on a slip and slide. They have now clearly lost out to Columbia. Chicago and Berkeley are next.

I'd say UCLA Law is the clear 15 on verge of 14. Why is Cornell ahead of GULC? Do people take Cornell over GULC? Why?

66, you must be part of Latham PR effort or self-delusional apologist. Shouldn't you be working instead of reading blogs. Loser.

I like the Critical Badger post b/c the list they had sent into them looks just as legitimate but the rankings are totally different. Is everyone going off of this one just because it is on ATL? the fact is there is no way to verify which of the various copies floating around out there is real. Do you think that USN intentionally leaks several different copies because they have learned from years past that the real one is getting leaked anyway. At least this way they get to throw some confusion out there and the release of the official list on Thursday still has some excitement about it. Pretty sneaky USN.

Texas should be ranked #1 b/c their rankings are so huge, just like their women.

USNWR 5-year rank avg (based on TLS):

http://stashbox.org/492649/usnwr_avg_ranking.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/juicyjanna/rank1.gif

There is the best scan. 100% authentic.

If my school moved up, does this mean I get to re-do OCI?

Regarding Indiana, they got a 35m gift this year. Isn't cash a big part of the rubric? Plus, whatever it is they've done with it. I'm an alumna and I don't have any idea, but I'm glad to see that my degree might be a little more respectable, even if Indiana is still TTT.

Touro, Touro, TOURO!

laTTTam and waTTTkins, shu, shu. There is nothing for you to see here. Go spread your lies at TTT schools.

94, neither school, Texas or UCLA, is really on the verge of overtaking GULC. UCLA has been 15 before. Texas has been 15 before, Hell, Vandy has been 15 before.

The T18 reshuffles and we go through this all again every year.

This is clearly a hoax. Penn State in the top ten??

great, time to start working on my gtown transfer app.
-gw 1L

94, neither school, Texas or UCLA, is really on the verge of overtaking GULC. UCLA has been 15 before. Texas has been 15 before, Hell, Vandy has been 15 before.

The T18 reshuffles and we go through this all again every year.

93 - "NYU has clearly lost out to Columbia" - it's ONE index point away from tying it, up from three last year.

Agree with your Chicago sentiment. Not sure how they are marketing the school to prospects... "Some of our great faculty... belongs to other schools now. Enjoy Hyde Park?"

As for Berkeley, it's clearly gaming the rankings. 10% acceptance rate? It probably hands out fee waivers to students it would never accept just to deny them.

Finally, the most intriguing thing to me is indeed Stanford's perpetual Top 3 placement. HOW?!?! CLS has much better quantitative data. I really think USNEWS needs to explain this one. It could be some of the behind the scenes numbers, like expenditures per student. With such a small class, it's likely that those numbers are sky high for Stanford (as they likely are for Yale...) This also makes it tough for Harvard to ever match up, even with their impressive numbers for a 550 person class.

64 = bitter UGA/FSU fan - no one judges UF by its law school.

great, time to start working on my gtown transfer app.
-gw 1L

INDIANA??????????????????????

They jumped 13 spots. Note to schools in decline: do what they did.

Also, how any school from the SEC is in the T30 is beyond the realm of possibility.

Cornell's 25th GPA dropped .3, with no change to their LSAT? Ithaca fail.

how did you miss the fact that this has been confirmed with color scans and a ridiculous 1am trip to penn station by a TLSer and everything? the TLS tards were talking about sending their little story to ATL so i'm not sure what the excuse is. i suppose elie might be purposely ignoring them and withholding any props that might flow to TLS, which i can get behind, but he's probably just lazy

berkeley is so obviously ahead of uva and penn (for fucks sake!) that the fantasy-rankings otherwise are actually sad rather than just being weird.

Stanford: 168-172 LSAT range? That's lower than NYU's.

Harvard: Over 99% NY bar passage rate. Damn.

51---Yes, Texas is a great law school

Um, not very good reporting, considering that these rankings were likely a pre-lease/mock-up, proven by real scanned copies on TLS.

Good luck 110 - everyone knows "GW" stands for "Georgetown Waitlist."

Go Hoyas.

Do you have to speak Spanish if you go to U Texis?

Where's the 'ship be sinking' guy for GW?

"In this version, the top 14 law schools remain the top 14 law schools. Here's another version from Top Law Schools."

c:/Users/cmystal/AppData/Local/Temp/rank1.gif

Elie linking to his c:/ drive. Comedic gold.

LaTTTham NY made vault surveys due the day before they massacred 130 associates.

Wait, Latham NY laid off more than half the first year class, and 45% of its total associates? Holy B'Jezus.

Friends don't let friends work at Latham.

118 - si, necesita hablar espanol. Or be part of an indie rock band.

Why the heck did W&L's ambitious new third year program drop it five spots?

Retired partner here: I would like to see a listing that includes a cost/benefit analysis in terms of subsequent employment out for 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

If my name is Jesus, and my father is really connected, can I get into Chicago?

UVA's giant balls tea bag all other schools in the area.

Suck on my big, beautiful, mint julep flavored balls.

UVA3L

unc moving on up

Is it true that Latham NY is run by a feisty midget from Syracuse Law School?

Who cares? Only one school on the list is worth attending. Why don't you all just attend Yale? It's quite fantastic. Now that I've finished my morning mimosa, I might consider stopping by class. Enjoy competing to be second place.

--- Yale 2009

YEAH DUKE

If UCLA, Texas, or Vandy break T-14, (UCLA most likely) where is the glass ceiling? Can they eclipse Cornell?

Yawn. I hope you all realize that the precise ordering of the T14 is meaningless to the people (theoretically) hiring you.

"as if they were true"

I'm amazed that people regard the actual rankings as if they were true.

You guys are a little late with the Latham bashing. This page is about trashing law schools that are better than yours. Latham-bashing was 2 months ago. Almost everyone else followed them and we have since moved on.

STFU, N. Wacker Stud. You are a disgrace.

132 --- Cornell kind of sucks, so one of them probably can eclipse it

112- I'm sorry Cornell rejected you, but with your obvious tendancy to believe anything that's put on the internet, I'm guessing you're beTTTer suiTTTed aTTT a diferenTTT school. Good Luck!

66, Latham NEW YORK laid off 130 associates in January and February. Perhaps it's 130 laid off associates posting one time each?

Yale 2009,

I have met some incredibly brilliant and charming Yalies, but a few of the weirdest, most awkward law students I've ever met were also at Yale. You guys manage to have quite an interesting mix.

Iowa > Fordham?? Wow.

In truth, each of these schools should be ranked based upon an appraisal of the NPV of graduates' expected incomes.

Iowa > Fordham?? Wow.

In truth, each of these schools should be ranked based upon an appraisal of the NPV of graduates' expected incomes.

Latham will always be able to recruit from Berkeley through the Bush torture connection. Latham partner Maureen Mahoney is supporting torture-enabling war criminal and 9th Circuit judge Jay Bybee, and Berkeley supports torture-enabling war criminal and tenured Berkeley professor John Yoo.

The rankings are real. Here's a copy of the the latest USNWR issue.

http://img6.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=rank1j.gif

135, name another supposedly elite firm that has laid off 40% of its New York office (most not based on their abilities, but based on politics and including the highest billers in their respective classes) and still has no work to do but for pro bono.

Also make sure that firm was telling its recruits their are the kings of new york, best managed, best diversified, most transparent firm that always takes care of its associates and never conducts stealth layoffs.

Iowa > Fordham?? Wow.

In truth, each of these schools should be ranked based upon an appraisal of the NPV of graduates' expected incomes.

59 - "U of Texas-Austin at 15

I mean seriously.... Who would want to study at any of these locations?"

Are you serious? It's readily apparent you've never spent time in Austin. It read must suck having a large population of pretty girls running around, having great weather almost year round, and a great nightlife/live music scene. Yeah, sounds like a terrible place to study law. You're right, I'd much rather spend it in a beautiful place like New England.

UT was the best thing that ever happened to me. Solid position with Locke Lord, 3500 sq ft, wife, and a Lexis.

GO NOLES!

Columbia 2009,

I'm by far the smartest person I know, equally exceptional in both legal and biblical exegesis, but my Columbia classmates occassionally approached my abilities. I couldn't imagine this happening at any other law school. Therefore, Columbia boasts the most talented student body and should be ranked #1.

Si, senor. Si. Habla Texicana. Si si.

147, I only meant that I don't think of any of those places -- Georgia, Texas, Iowa, etc. -- when I think of legal education.

-- 59

Does anyone know if the Penn ranking is for the State College or Carlisle campus (or both)?

@153

State College, obviously.

143, You think Latham might be involved in the Kennedy assassination in some way?

GULC chicks love the UVA d!ck. Its true.

150

I once had a cleaning woman who attended Columbia Law. She was talented in MANY ways. When, it comes to the subject of law, Yale is supreme.

Yale 2009

Syracuse Law - Tier 3? There are 3Ls starting at Latham, White & Case, Wilmerhale, Arnold 7 Porter and so on.. . Plus VP Biden alum? The dean and admissions office should be fired- 50% acceptance rate please. At least we aren't T4 trash Suffolk- lolz

Yah....Go Noles....go back to to the butthole of America we all call Tallahassee. Have fun at Binder & Binder you douche.

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but Loyola (LA) is ranked significantly lower than Pepperdine?
Has this always been true?

I've always had a much better opinion of Loyola.

GW dropped because part-time stats were included in the rankings:

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2009/04/2009-reputational-scores-from-us-news-surveys-of-academics-and-practitioners.html

Are people on this site that dumb that they are arguing whether some are real. Maybe it started with this idiotic post that links to Critical Badger and some Blackbook Legal crappy blog.

The actual magazine was purchased by somebody on the top law schools.com website last night and was photographed and scanned. It was purchased at Penn Station.

There is no need to debate whether those are real or not because it is the actual magazine. There was also no need for this freaking post citing Critical Badger or Blackbook Legal.

Another post that only states old information.

It'll be interesting to see how the "Employed 9 Months After Graduation" numbers look next year. I wonder if start dates and layoffs will hit any particular school (or group of schools) harder than the others.

http://lawschoolheadlines.com/ has the +/- movement.

Maybe if Syracuse weren't in bumf*ck nowhere, it would be ranked higher.

155, it's not 143, but 145. I know, Latham only left the smart ones. What happened, didn't uncle Bob and uncle Dave tell you not to look at ATL because it is depressing? Go back to your asylum application.

Hmm- I would hate to be a deferred Syracuse/Hofstra/Rutgers associate. See you at PI law

Wrong, 161: GWU was no longer artificially inflated because PT was included.

George W. Bush graduated from Yale. This gives you an idea of the IQ of its graduate... But with such a small class it will always be first although it can never compete with the other top 5.

Maybe if it didn't take Syracuse alums like Beau Biden a half a dozen cracks to pass a bar exam they'd be ranked higher.

From the updated comments on TLS I'm starting to doubt these rankings. True, U.S. News could have made some embarrasing mistakes, but if you go to the very bottom of the list, both Vermont and Gonzaga are ranked once in Tier 2 and again in Tier 3.

I bet USNWR purposefully "leaks" multiple fake versions of their rankings to 1) throw people off, and 2) get up the hype around the lists so when the real ones come out, those who give a shit about their rankings (and even some who claim they don't) is in a furor.

"Indiana, Our Indiana"

Indiana, our Indiana
Indiana, we're all for you!
We will fight for the cream and crimson
For the glory of old IU
Never daunted, we cannot falter
In the battle, we're tried and true
Indiana, our Indiana,
Indiana we're all for you! I-U!

"Indiana Fight"

Fight for the Cream and Crimson,
Loyal sons of our old I. U.
Fight for your Alma Mater,
and the school you love so true.
Fight for old Indiana,
See her victories safely through,
GO! I.U! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
For the glory of old I. U.!

169 - C'mon, you can do better than that. Bush graduated from the MBA program, and any stoopid shlub can get an MBA, especially when that stoopid shlub has a solid-gold pedigree. How about a more relevant comparison?

171, that has been the case in the past if there is a tie at 100th.

From the updated comments on TLS, I'm starting to doubt the pictures the TLS OP put up. True, U.S. News could have made some embarrasing mistakes, but if you go down to the bottom of the rankings you'll notice that both Gonzaga and Vermont are ranked twice...once in Tier 2 and again in Tier 3.

Is Loyola a law school in Chicago? The one with the big part-time program?

Its a disgrace that the undergrad program at Syracuse is top 50, Maxwell is #1 for public admin, Newhouse is a top school, MGMT and Tech schools are top- yet Dean Arterian cannot muster up the courage to have a vision for excellence. They admit 50% of the students- they would be better offer taking only 20- offering full-ride scholarships- raising their ranking to about 60 ish-
Here is why Syracuse sux- not selective, professors that don't publish, and poor job placement. The trustees must take actions

Its a disgrace that the undergrad program at Syracuse is top 50, Maxwell is #1 for public admin, Newhouse is a top school, MGMT and Tech schools are top- yet Dean Arterian cannot muster up the courage to make an immediate change They admit 50% of the students- they would be better offer taking only 20- offering full-ride scholarships- raising their ranking to about 60 ish-
Here is why Syracuse sux- not selective, professors that don't publish, and poor job placement. The trustees must take actions

Comments about Stanford behind Columbia are stupid... do you know how to read the data? Columbia only beats Stanford in the LSAT score... Bar passage rate doesnt count, as the CA Bar is much more difficult than NY. For some weird reason Stanford decided to accept students with low LSATs... go check the 100% job placement... better being unemployed in Columbia? That is why you have been laid off or is about to be...

From the updated comments on TLS, I'm starting to doubt the pictures the TLS OP put up. True, U.S. News could have made some embarrasing mistakes, but if you go down to the bottom of the rankings you'll notice that both Gonzaga and Vermont are ranked twice...once in Tier 2 and again in Tier 3.

146 - It would make no sense to base the rankings on NPV of graduates' prospective incomes. Of course incomes will be higher in the Northeast than in the Midwest. The cost of living is also twice as much in the Northeast. Any ranking that took into account potential future earnings would also have to account for the cost of living differences in the various regions of the country. Also, Iowa is a better school than Fordham. We were as high as 18 in the rankings at one point, before the outgoing dean came in and decided that rankings don’t matter. It took a slide outside of the top 25 for the school to wakeup and realize prospective students care about the rankings. Hopefully in a few years the ship will be righted.

given that they already said they are doing a separate ranking for part time programs this year it seems unlikely they'd include part-time stats in the main ranking methodology.

also, if they did, GULC would have dropped.

Indiana jumped so high because of a huge numbers change... last year the 25/75 GPA was 3.03-3.67. This year it's 3.39-3.85. The acceptance rate also dropped from 38.9% to 25%, and even the student faculty ratio fell from 11.1 to 10.0.

Also of those numbers correspond to a massive jump, which is what happened.

174, he didn't. Bush went to Yale College and then Harvard Business School.

NUSL down 6 points to 94. Down from 77 when I matriculated. So glad I went there.

Supremely f*cked unemployed 2007 grad.

I thought US News said they were NOT including part time stats in the rankings (ie they were doing separate rankings of part-time programs)? Funny if they basically deceived every law school dean in the country.

@ 176 - yes and UPenn St. is also ranked in the first ( 7) and second (67) tier.

174 and 169 = fail. He went to Yale UG and Harvard MBA.

Is it 4/20 yet?

-Michael Phelps

"clearly (insert firm) will no longer be able to recruit from the t3, t5, t14, t20 any more"
translation:
"clearly I did not get a call-back and/or an offer from (insert same firm. Therefore, instead of working on my grades and interview skills (or blatant lack thereof), I will try to make myself feel better by commenting about (insert same) firm on ATL.com"
I fucking l love this web site.

Now, I think I need to make a list of every firm that dinged me and post the list on the wall above my computer so that I can utilize any post to bash that/those firm(s).

Get a life d-bags.

185 - my bad, good catch. But that reinforces my argument about the poor quality of 169's example.

-174

176 here.

First, sorry for the multiple posts.
Second, 175, thanks for the explanation--makes sense.
Third, 188...LOL. Much wittier than the "which campus, is it?" jokes.

Jesus christ, THE ACTUAL FULL-COLOR SCANS HAVE BEEN UP SINCE 5AM EST ON TLS

WHAT, ARE YOU TOO FUCKING LAZY TO LOOK, ELIE?

YOU FUCKING FATASS

158 - Why are you being such an asshole to everyone?

Is Locke Lord Houston more prestigious than Baker? Also, I am a SMU 2L. What are my chances of going to either?

George W. Bush was rejected from Texas for law school.

what's the word on the incorporation of PT #ers? if PT #ers were incorporated, why didn't GT's posted medians drop sig and why did USD catapult some 15 or so spots in the rankings?

Everyone who is stating that UCLA, Texas, etc. may break into the Top 14 category or that it should be Top 15, Top 20, etc., is missing the point.

The so-called "Top 14" exists as an elite band of schools because these are the only 14 schools that have ever been in the top 10 of the rankings. In that way, "T14" doesn't literally mean "the #1 through #14 ranked schools in this year's survey", but rather it is a recognition of the elite 14 that can, at any time, pop up in the top 10.

UCLA, Texas, etc. will never be in the top 10 and, individual year's rankings aside, they'll never be better than the scabs of the T14 like GULC, Cornell, Northwestern, etc.

UVA is still the best place to study law--no contest..

Here's an Image Shack gallery with OperaSoprano's original pictures from TLS. These are color photos and show all six pages of the law school rankings. Thanks to TLS and OperaSoprano!!!

http://img6.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=rank1j.gif

199: well i htink t14 stands
i don't think cornell or gtown are going to "pop into" the t10 any time soon lol

132 -- that's a great point. I know nothing of UCLA, although I was accepted and visited the campus. I went to one of those T10 state schools. However, if UCLA can get by the Hoyas, I think they can get all the way up to 11. The T10 glass ceiling may be too much, but it definitely can beat out the Big Red. The Blue Devils and the Wildcats will be a bit tougher. The old line guys of Boalt, UM, and UVa are probably too much to ask, especially Boalt (probably the most closely associated potential student base)

Here is a link to a gallery showing the original six color scans posted by OperaSoprano on TLS. Thanks TLS and OperaSoprano!

http://img6.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=rank1j.gif

180: the CA bar isn't harder than the NY bar. CA's passage rates are lower because they allow graduates from non-ABA schools to take the bar.

It's obviously fake - they left out Princeton Law School!!!

205: well it's an extra day at the very least.

So ill be entering law school next year and I'm deciding between GULC, Cornell and Duke....which is the best move and why?

205 - the non-ABA accredited applicants account for some of CA's low passage rates. But when you look at passage rates for first time takers from accredited law schools, CA's passage rate is still lower than NY's. By that measure, CA's bar exam is harder.

208, I wouldn't go to those schools. Go to Yale instead.

Boston- the great divide

Tier 1
Hahvahd
BU
BC

Tier 2
Northeastern 91

Tier 4 trash
Suffolk
New England

The quality of comments on this thread is only further proof that only pre-law kiddies care about USNWR rankings.

Ah, rankings debates. I remember when I thought this mattered, other than in a general sense. Don't all of you law students have something better to do? Go read a nutshell or something. Do you really think that we (your future employers) spend any time at all arguing over the merits of NYU v. Columbia, Cornell v. Georgetown, UCLA v. Texas? The childish intensity of these posts -- and not just on this topic -- is sad/embarrassing. Are there any non-law students on ATL anymore? Perhaps they should start a new law gossip blog for grownups (and I recognize that that consitutes only a subset of actual lawyers as well).

GW will never be an elite school but this is f'ing ridiculous; Iowa? Indiana? William & f@#$@% Mary? seriously?

GW median #ers for the 3 current classes: 1) class of '09: 166, 3.64; 2) class of '10; 167, 3.75; 3) class of '11: 167, 3.7_ (?) [#ers which, by the way, are higher than all other non t14 schools; the highly "selective" indiana inclusive]

GW employment #ers: NLJ 250 placement by % of graduating class: 1) class of '08: ~44%; 2) class of '07: ~42%

does Iowa even have an OCI program?! didn't one guy from there once get a job as a staff attorney @ morgan lewis?

Clerkship #ers? who knows, it doesn't matter ... at least when compared against ... William & f'ing Mary!?!?

GW at @28 behind the aforementioned can only mean one of three things:

1) this list is fake an obvious byproduct of blatant BU trolling,
2) USNWR has officially jumped the shark, or
3) someone at the GW law admin office screwed up very, very badly and simply reported the wrong info

either way, i'm retaking the LSAT

-GW law 3L

Can someone explain to me how NYU is ranked ahead of Chicago? Peer assessment (both academics and lawyers/judges) - Chi; LSATs - identical; GPAs - almost identical; Acceptance rate - Chicago. ???

213, I find you to be sad/embarrassing. So shut up.

215, NYU is just a better school and everyone knows it. That is why.

213 - rankings do matter. Firms often structure their OCI schedules based around rankings. They also tend to make offers to higher tiered students first, then make offers to lower tiered students only after higher tiers accept elsewhere.

No one can do document review like a Yale man. And I mean nobody!

Hey 37, did you mean Latham Firing Committee? BTW, when are you guys going national?

Thanks #120.

WTF Elie? How do you even manage to feed yourself? How about get off your lazy ass and fix that shit, with an actual link to the TLS thread and graphics that confirmed these rankings were real. The original B&W scan was posted on TLS about 20 minutes after Badger made his original blog entry (and before he got the image up). Nobody believed them until TLS produced actual scans. Get a fucking clue: at least make a minimal effort to give some proper credit, and link to sources people can actually READ.

Do you idiots really think employers look at these rankings to make hiring decisions? OF COURSE NOT. These are still the same exact schools they were the last 5 years. They based hiring decisions on their past experiences with the students from that school, not whether they dropped 3 spots in this years rankings, or whether they are arbitrarily in the top 17 or top 23 or top 43.

211 = GULC4L

What are the rankings based on the strength of promissory estoppel classes/faculty?

214: it's because USNWR included PT students.

Tell GWU to raise its standards, eh?

Is it true that when you flush your toilet at UVA, it comes out on the 2nd floor of GULC?

yes 213, i am sure the hiring partners will wait to hear back from Iowa before talking to GW students.

Will V&E hire from SMU?

haha, Iowa over Hastings, what a joke.

T14 here, Hastings places as well as we do in one of the toughest markets in the nation.

Like they say, heap of salt. Everyone knows they shuffle around everyone outside the top 3/14/18 just to sell copies. Move along...

Washington and Lee is underrated.

@226 - Absolutely.

why is berkeley's gpa bracket so high? do they take students from easier schools that have high gpas?

As long as AU is in the top 50, this list will be a joke.

are you kidding me? uva is totally gaming the rankings by handing out automatic app fee waivers to every applicant (including the shitty ones) this year. berkeley wouldn't give me a fee waiver even when i begged. and yes, i got rejected from there, so i'm not even jocking berkeley.

Sorry kids, but TLS is the new King of the block. Badger stole the file from a poster at TLS and TLS got the full colors first. So ends my thirst for ATL.

TLS, call them lemmings if you like, but they're looking more and more like a leader ever day.

TRUTH

Washington and Lee, if anything, should have gone up with all the press about the third year program. William and Mary is a solid school but super overrated.

Haha, GW did the one thing you cant do in these rankings, which is take a noticeable fall.

No one cares whether a school is 20 or 21. But they will notice 20 or 22 v. 28.

The rankings are very real. Welcome to the basement GW. BU, BC, Emory and ND will start to dominate below UCLA, USC, Vandy. GW may be in for a long winter unless they drop the PT program.

Dear Law Students,

Please don't come to Latham because we don't want to be fired.

-Latham junior associates

Why is Latham getting blasted in a thread about law school rankings? How is this post remotely relevant to Latham?

why is berkeley's gpa bracket so high? do they take students from easier schools that have high gpas?

217...

Um...While I've sort of thought Chicago was in a pretty clear decline the last few years...if the question is whether everyone knows NYU is better, then you're wrong. Chicago's #'s are higher than NYU's for peer and lawyer reviews.

Which means that "everyone" apparently thinks Chicago is better.

Counter-intuitive, I would have thought. But true.

A few people have noticed above, as well. I think NYU is in big trouble if it doesn't boost it's prestige score a bit in the next couple of years.

218/213 - 218 is right rankings do matter. I know my V100 firm looks at the rankings before making a decision on what schools to visit. I think it's a terrible practice. I have a lot of colleagues from so called non-elite schools that are incredible attorneys. Reality is though - firms do care and therefore rankings from year to year matter a great deal. I feel bad for GW kids.

218/213 - 218 is right rankings do matter. I know my V100 firm looks at the rankings before making a decision on what schools to visit. I think it's a terrible practice. I have a lot of colleagues from so called non-elite schools that are incredible attorneys. Reality is though - firms do care and therefore rankings from year to year matter a great deal. I feel bad for GW kids.

Tier 4 schools are for losers who are fat, ugly and stupid.

Emory just took a dump on GW and Fordham.

Latham dinged me. Fuck those fuckers.
Yeah

247 here, Skadden dinged me too. Fuck those fuckers.
Yeah

247 - you should thank them for dinging you. Now you can try to find a job with a real, honest firm that has prospects of getting work instead of wasting your time doing pro bono and learning nothing.

AssLobster says GWhat?

@248 - Good.

N. Wacker Stud

242: really? because NYU hasn't been out of the T6 since 1993, and hasn't been out of the T5 since 1998 despite having steadily improving reputational scores.

UC, on the other hand, has been dropping like a rock and has been out of the T6 2 years in a row.

I'm not saying NYU is a better law school than UC, but you saying "NYU is in big trouble" makes absolutely no sense. UC is the only school in the t10 that appears to be in trouble.

I love the East and West Coast students shocked that Midwestern law schools are ranked higher than their schools. Guess what? The reason you don't see as many students from state schools in the Midwest in your market is that these students tend to practice in Midwestern cities, such as Chicago. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Here's another shocker: you'll find way more students from Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa in Chicago than you will from GW and Hastings!

232, 241: I don't think Berkeley takes students from easier schools. Actually, from Berkeley's website:

Most predominant undergraduate schools are UC Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Yale, and Harvard.

These are not easier schools!

All the Columbia people I met hated the school. Glad I chose Berkeley. And UVA? Who the hell wants to live in Virginia for three years? I still do not understand how it is ranked so high. UVA hands out application fee waivers so it can reject you and increase their rejection rate. What a douche. And no, I did not even apply to UVA.

I respect Chicago, but anyone who chooses Chicago weather over Cali is an idiot.

252...

That seemed to be the general intuition. But if you'll notice, Chicago is ranked #6 now. So they were only out for one year, not two. In fact, this year is technically an improvement over last year.

Plus, their reputational scores are still high, despite the fact that everyone thought they were headed down the crapper.

I'm surprised by that, but I think it shows that NYU isn't necessarily viewed as the better law school by people in general.

It's interesting, because I would have guessed that the two scores would be swithced.

That said, everyone had to rack Chicago and NYU side-by-side, and the scores point to Chicago. Which I don't think bodes well for NYU.

It may be that nothing ever changes, but if I were NYU, I'd be working my ass off to make sure that doesn't happen again.

I can only assume NYU is ranked ahead of Chicago because of spending per student. Still, with Chi on the decline, I don't see it and NYU trading places any time soon

DUKE will not be stopped

UC Davis from 44 to the mid 30's? I don't think so--these are fake

Yale kids party like fags.

UVA3L

I love rankings as much as the next guy but what I'm really curious about will be the employment numbers for this years class. It sucks that we have to wait 2 years but those numbers will definitely tell a story about which schools were best able to weather this crisis.

208: The leaked ranking answers your question (correctly).

@257,

Do you think Chicago is on the decline anymore? They were bumped back up to 6 this year, and look good reputationally. Like I said before, that surprises me, but it seems like Chicago has a bit of resilience that nobody expected. If tthat's true, then even on off years (like last year), people still won't discount the school. Maybe they're back on the upswing?

Even so...I agree it would be astounding if NYU and Chicago switched places.

--256

Go Duke!

If you went to Harvard, can a V10 still fire you?

Do you idiots really think employers look at these rankings to make hiring decisions? OF COURSE NOT. These are still the same exact schools they were the last 5 years. They based hiring decisions on their past experiences with the students from that school, not whether they dropped 3 spots in this years rankings, or whether they are arbitrarily in the top 17 or top 23 or top 43.

Tulane, by a shoe, bitches!

Duke + Dean David F. Levi = continuing upward movement

Looks like they included part time students in the LSAT calculation for all the schools except Brooklyn Law School. I wonder if USNWR made a mistake, or if Brooklyn lied? If you look at the list of part time programs, Brooklyn, which has a sizable one, is not listed at all. What's going on, was USNWR just told that BLS doesn't have any part time students?

Partners hate Yale grads. Even the Yale alum partners.

I'm nervous about my choice to go to BC.

266- That's actually not entirely true. I don't like the practice, but my firm definitely refers to the list every year when making decisions on what firms to visit. T20 is required. Partners that didn't go to a T20 hate this, but it was an executive committee decision. So it does matter to some firms.

UVA students party like madras wearing twinks.

Yale2L

Don't sweat it 271. BC does fine on the East Coast and in V100. But you will have to bust your hump - bottom half is no place to be.

254 - generally speaking, those are schools with a decent amount of grade inflation though...

Texas at T15. Nice. Of course, with the death of the legal system as we currently know it, these precious rankings won't protect anyone.

Best value for the ranking: Texas
Best football team for the ranking: Texas
Best college town for the ranking: Texas

It doesn't matter at Mayer Brown, Kirkland, or Covington.

The rep scores are averaged over 2 years, so it takes time for UC's scores to drop or NYU's scores to rise. Plus, I think even though it's on the decline most people do still think it's better than Penn, Boalt, UVA, UMich.

266: +/- a few rankings doesn't matter to firms. But what tier a school is in matters quite a bit to recruiters. Same for federal clerkships.

GW needs a new dean. Under Young the school continued to see its rankings go up and it was featured in the NYT as a school on the rise. Under Lawrence - well we all know how that has gone...

230/236 - agreed. But even though they should have gone up with the 3L program, risk averse prospectives look at those employment numbers and shudder. Who wants to recruit in Lexington? And W&M destroys them with gov't and state court hiring, for better or worse.

GWU and W&M are obviously great schools. V&E DC has several SAs this year from both schools. Nuff said.

Texas gets you 3 squares a day, 3550 sq ft wife, and a Lexis. Not too shab. Not to shab at all.

Levi Johnston

Hey 263, 257 here.

I don't know if Chicago will continue on a decline, but it's taken quite a hit recently with top faculty leaving (not to mention the drop to #7). UofC was an absolute top school for a long time given its prominence in the law & econ movement and top faculty. Coupled with its success with placing grads in academia & clerkships, one could argue that Chi was up with the top 3.

But the school has long had disadvantages, which I could now see becoming more serious. In particular, its "rigourous" reputation (in conjunction with its south side Chicago location) serves to deflect top admits toward NYU/Columbia and elsewhere. I also understand (though don't know for a fact) that the school lacks the financial resources of its peers (especially NYU). If UofC loses its unique academic prominence (by flight of faculty or otherwise), then I could see those weaknesses cementing the school below NYU/Columbia for the long haul. Hence, the decline...

275 - Stanford is notorious for grade inflation, but UC Berkeley and UCLA don't do it. It has been something the student have complained about for years. They feel at a competitive disadvantage with USC and Stanford for grad school.

Everyone complaining about Stanford's consistent placement above Columbia is either ignorant or dishonest. According to the data, Stanford has a better reputation among lawyers & judges and among legal academics. Job prospects are much, much better for Stanford students, even in New York, because there aren't enough Stanford students to go around. No one chooses Columbia over Stanford unless it's for money or personal reasons. CLS, get over your inferiority complex.

William and Mary sucks balls.

Richmond

UVA's new dean has said that he plans to spend money to boost our ranking a few spots, so I'm not surprised they are handing out more fee waivers to potential applicants.

It may look like a dick move, but if weaker candidates want to take a long shot and try to get in here, what's the big deal? We get a rankings boost, they get a free shot otherwise worth 75 bucks.

In any case, you will see UVA moving up to 7 or 8 in USNews in the next couple years. We probably belong where Michigan and Penn are (not so much Duke).

A friend of mine who went to Harvard and then worked at Latham was let go. No one is safe in this environment. No one. T14 or anyone else.

You are all idiots.

First, employers don't care much about these rankings.

Second, to the extent that employers care, the Vault rankings show what they think. Sorry Columbia, UVA is better according to hiring partners.
http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

W&L's third year program is trash. 30 is well-deserved.

That's what GW gets for trying to game the rankings with their backdoor PT shadiness.

I am better than you 291.

SMU grad; Locke Lord Houston senior associate making bank.

All of you criticizing Elie/ATL need to step back and look at yourselves in the mirror:

(1) YOU are reading this site. You don't need to if you find the content so awful. They won't miss you: they get millions of visitors a week.

(2) Citing other blogs is what blogs do. If you can't deal with that, see point #1.

(3) Typos happen. And ATL cleans there's up. See point #1

(4) NOBODY posts the information as quickly, insightfully and intelligently as ATL. They do a good job with a task that is not at all easy.

(5) Why criticize other people anonymously in Blog comments anyway? It's a silly thing to do that is really kind of pathetic.

(6) When the critiques are really (as many of the ones here are) manifestations of veiled racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. etc. it's even more pathetic. This is supposed to be a profession with a high ethical bar. I'm sad to say the comments here embarrass the ideals I've been taught to adhere to.

I am amazed that people can argue so passionately about minor movements in these rankings. IMO the top 3 schools have a certain cachet but I really don't see people in the real world drawing huge differences between other TOP schools. Columbia v. Chicago v. Penn v. UVA v. Duke? Get over yourselves, they are all top schools that send people to the same firms and yadayada but they will never be HLS. Only large changes in the rankings make any difference such as when a school drops a tier or perhaps in GWs case when they drop about 10 spots in 2 years. As a poseter said some firms may have cutoffs such as T20 but I seriously hope people here don't actually think the ordering between schools 4-10 is so damn important.

Indiana is the new GW.

254: UC Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Yale, and Harvard.

Easy schools? Two of these are not like the others...

Guess which ones actually fail students? Guess which ones give at least a B to anyone with a brain stem and $50k/year?

294 here-

the pun in point #3 was intended.

Is it true that Tier 4 schools are not quality institutions?

A little SMU never hurt anyone.

299 - Depends on what you mean by "quality." I bet they have some lovely buildings, some very nice professors and staff, and climate controlled libraries. They're probably great places to spend 3 years and shell out thousands of borrowed dollars.

But in terms of education - well, recruiters aren't beating paths to their doors are they?

great - my school jumps 13 spots to 23 - still hasn't gotten me a fucking job with graduation in a matter of weeks...

Why so much hate for SMU? What did they do to you?

#295: Eat a dick, Elie. Learn to do your fucking job. Or at least put some effort into it for a change. Still haven't fixed the "link" to your C: drive. Dumbass.

225: I assumed as much but then how do you explain the relative consistency of GT's #ers and the fact that USD (after the supposed incorporation of the PT #ers) jumped what, 15 or spots? It seems counterintuitive that the incorporation of PT #ers would decimate schools like GW and Fordham but GT would remain more or less intact and USD would take off through the roof ...

From a pure **numbers** perspective you can very easily make the argument that GW is peer to institutions like UCLA, UT, USC, and Vandy (and honestly, schools like BU, ND, Emory, and WUSTL really don't merit mention in this convo). GW has the highest median admission LSAT /GPA, its clerkship #ers are at or about at where the other four are at in terms of placement, and, well, it places a near (and in some cases greater) identical % of its graduating class into the NLJ 250 as the other four. I get that GW is severely lacking in the lay prestige department due to its anemic undergrad (unlike the other 4) and thus will never be viewed as a true peer institution; at least, however, from a pure "pound-for-pound" comparison the five schools are very similar. It's a simple matter of looking at the #ers - there isn't much to argue about.

All the same, GW alumni can live with a 19-22 existence. We are not demanding - we can play 2nd fiddle to SC ... but never BU, never Emory. But now... after today .. 28 .. behind FRICKIN' IOWA?! How do you even begin to legitimize such a thing? I tells yeah, I don't get no respect.

Oh well, I'm finished caring about this and the garbage USNWR; just had to rant. My grades were barely above median and I'm at NYC biglaw. Iowa ... IOWA?!!? Arrrgh! haha

297 - I'm not sure which ones you think have rampant grade inflation, but Harvard undergrad is one of the worst offenders in the country - I remember a few years ago, the Globe did a story about how something like 53% of the graduating class had at least an A- average. Amherst is a wicked offender, too. It sucks balls for us grads of slightly-lower ranked schools which had no grade inflation (I went to Bates undergrad, where maybe 15 or 20% have A averages, and got slaughtered in the Boston job market. Hence my JD, which is also getting slaughtered in the job market).

Not 254

225: I assumed as much but then how do you explain the relative consistency of GT's #ers and the fact that USD (after the supposed incorporation of the PT #ers) jumped what, 15 or spots? It seems counterintuitive that the incorporation of PT #ers would decimate schools like GW and Fordham but GT would remain more or less intact and USD would take off through the roof ...

From a pure **numbers** perspective you can very easily make the argument that GW is peer to institutions like UCLA, UT, USC, and Vandy (and honestly, schools like BU, ND, Emory, and WUSTL really don't merit mention in this convo). GW has the highest median admission LSAT /GPA, its clerkship #ers are at or about at where the other four are at in terms of placement, and, well, it places a near (and in some cases greater) identical % of its graduating class into the NLJ 250 as the other four. I get that GW is severely lacking in the lay prestige department due to its anemic undergrad (unlike the other 4) and thus will never be viewed as a true peer institution; at least, however, from a pure "pound-for-pound" comparison the five schools are very similar. It's a simple matter of looking at the #ers - there isn't much to argue about.

All the same, GW alumni can live with a 19-22 existence. We are not demanding - we can play 2nd fiddle to SC ... but never BU, never Emory. But now... after today .. 28 .. behind FRICKIN' IOWA?! How do you even begin to legitimize such a thing? I tells yeah, I don't get no respect.

Oh well, I'm finished caring about this and the garbage USNWR; just had to rant. My grades were barely above median and I'm at NYC biglaw. Iowa ... IOWA?!!? Arrrgh! haha

#304: I think you meant #294, retard.

305= Epic Fail

Which school is probably the most accommodating of students who enjoy a good ass pounding now and again?

here are the real rankings:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5792/2010usnewsranking.jpg

310-vanderbilt, obviously

*Yawn*

I mean, it's nice to have UVA back here with us, if for no other reason than spite. But when you're SCOTUS-clerk-less for nearly a decade, there's not much reason for celebration. 268, when Levy breaks the drought, he can come talk to me. Until then, he's just a male KTB.

But keep begging for my money. I'm sure I'll start sending it any day now.

--Devil in Disguise

284...

I would have agreed with you completely yesterday. But the reputational scores still go to Chicago.

That tells me that there is still some give. I'm not sure how the exodus of professors is going to shape out, but haven't they also got a few professors recently too?

I don't know, but I'm really surprised at these numbers.

It doesn't seem like people are leaving Chicago for NYU and CLS in droves, though...otherwise Chicago's LSAT scores wouldn't be as high.

I think you're probably right that Chicago has cemented itself around number 6, but why then do they have equal numbers and higher reputational score?

Maybe the reputational score will drop too after a few years if Chicago continues to give the impression that all of its top professors are leaving. But until then, I think they have some room to work.

Wasn't there a post on here about replacing the dean? That might help, or hurt, depending on who the next one is.

Regarding Chicago: both its rep scores (academics and practitioners) went up this year (in terms of relative rank). This isn't decline, it's improvement, and where it counts. Its overall rank is low relative to everything else (reputation, LSAT, employment), probably due to hidden factors in the USNWR formula.

should have gone to emory?

311 -- Bullshit

To the sour apples poster #305: IOWA LAW placed clerks with the D.C. Cir. Does this upset you?

GW and Fordham have fallen because the rankings scam they ran with their part-time programs has been exposed--the scam that got them as high as they were in the first place. At those two schools, any part-time student who wants to go full-time ends up folded in with their full-time student after first year. They used part-time admissions to channel students with weaker admissions files into their classes (because US News then excluded PT student quality numbers from its student quality calculations). The true spread of student "quality" was greater at those schools than at their peer schools who don't run part-time programs. GW and Fordham were overstating their student quality numbers and rose because of it--US News gave them that loophole and they used it. US News has now closed that loophole, and we're seeing the GW and Fordham real student quality numbers reflected in the rankings for the first time.

The US News rankings are silly, but if we're supposed to take student quality numbers seriously, circumventing them as GW and Fordham did masked a genuine quality issue--that yes, you will be in classes there with students whose admissions applications are weaker than yours and weaker than any at their former peer level (BU, Notre Dame, Emory). I'm sure other schools use US News loopholes to mask other weaknesses, but without a doubt, GW and Fordham, until this year, were over-ranked because they excluded many students from their quality numbers. The truth always catches up with you ... but at least they've had a running head start.

GW and Fordham have fallen because the rankings scam they ran with their part-time programs has been exposed--the scam that got them as high as they were in the first place. At those two schools, any part-time student who wants to go full-time ends up folded in with their full-time student after first year. They used part-time admissions to channel students with weaker admissions files into their classes (because US News then excluded PT student quality numbers from its student quality calculations). The true spread of student "quality" was greater at those schools than at their peer schools who don't run part-time programs. GW and Fordham were overstating their student quality numbers and rose because of it--US News gave them that loophole and they used it. US News has now closed that loophole, and we're seeing the GW and Fordham real student quality numbers reflected in the rankings for the first time.

The US News rankings are silly, but if we're supposed to take student quality numbers seriously, circumventing them as GW and Fordham did masked a genuine quality issue--that yes, you will be in classes there with students whose admissions applications are weaker than yours and weaker than any at their former peer level (BU, Notre Dame, Emory). I'm sure other schools use US News loopholes to mask other weaknesses, but without a doubt, GW and Fordham, until this year, were over-ranked because they excluded many students from their quality numbers. The truth always catches up with you ... but at least they've had a running head start.

305 is a moron.

UCLA's median LSAT is 168.
Vandy's median LSAT is 168.
Texas's median LSAT is 167.
Cornell's median LSAT is 167.
USC's median LSAT is 166.

What's GW's? Lower than each of those schools. Moreover, their 25th/75ths are lower. And their GPA is lower than all but Cornell's 25th (3.24? that's pathetic Cornell).

I'm having a lot of trouble choosing between Michigan (with 1/3 scholarship) and University of Chicago. Help?

319/20 - so what's w&l's story?

319/20 - so what's w&l's story?

321

GW is 167 / 3.75

UCLA is not 168; "gaming" the #ers from the 75th and 25th percentile ranges is not an accurate method ... moron

"At [GW and Fordham], any part-time student who wants to go full-time ends up folded in with their full-time student after first year."

Patently false.

BOALT all day B*tches

Lay Presige wins the day and Emory moves up to 20! Emory and GW had the same admissions strategy two years ago: Buy some high-LSATs with crazy scholarship offers...

Well, guess what? Emory did it better.

take Michigan and the money.

325,

UCLA's #s:

GPA: 3.49, 3.74, 3.87
LSAT: 164, 168, 169
http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1975

Stop making your numbers up and post a source.

318 - Does it upset you that any biglaw firm would take a NYC regional grad before your top 5%, unless Latham Iowa City is hiring.

Not 305.

Are these rankings legit. or are we in for a big surprise in a couple days????

Hey trolls, the real reason GWU sank was because of a 7-point drop in graduates employed at graduation (95% to 88%) and a 4-point drop in employment nine months out (97% to 93%). Really, that's atrocious for a school that's allegedly in the company of Texas or UCLA.

The gratuitous BC-BU-ND-Emory bashing is pretty uncalled for, too, given that each of them have strengths compared to GW. Not saying that GW is bad, just saying it's not obviously ahead of that field (well, except obviously ahead of WUSTL).

313: You spelled the name wrong. And SCOTUS: UVA pushes kids because of Wilkinson. Levi is a former judge and has brought 3 justices to school already in the short time he has been here. Have some faith.

Honestly, GW full-time and part-time are two different worlds. I'm all about letting hill staffers and similar types come take night classes, but good lord that's going to start hurting recruiting...

GW,

Keep bashing on BU, Emory, ND, and BC. We can barely hear you from all the way up there at 28. Say hello to Fordham for us though.

Fordham is a very bad school. The faculty are weak and many times are not even capable of discussing the subject matter that they are attempting to teach. The adminstration is even worst that the faculty. Can they properly manage a KMART?

Fordham is a very bad school. The faculty are weak and many times are not even capable of discussing the subject matter that they are attempting to teach. The adminstration is even worst that the faculty. Can they properly manage a KMART?

110

Good riddance.

Quick question: not to be dick, but would someone please explain why Michigan is ranked as high as it is? Not to knock the school (I've got no ties to it and have met several smart Michigan alums) but why would anyone want to study in a frigid, imploding midwestern state? I kind of wonder how the whole university can survive given what's happening to the rest of the state.

To some extent the same thing could be said for Cornell, I guess. Any thoughts?

Monday, April 20, 2009 5:53 PM

330,

UCLA's class of 2011 was the first to break 168; fair is fair, you're right ..

re GW's median #ers:
http://www.princetonreview.com/schools/law/LawBasics.aspx?iid=1035863

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Alumni/Lawrence/Pages/October2008.aspx

etc.

Employment data:
http://128.164.132.16/Portal/Announcements/details.aspx?id=5817

If any school breaks into the T14, which one will it be?

Dean Lawrence: TIME TO GO.

331 - Is that why Iowa ranked higher than GW in the Vault law school rankings, which is based purely on surveys of "hiring partners, hiring committee members, associate interviewers and recruiting professionals"?

http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

Why all the Iowa hate? Apparently not enough “lay prestige”. Iowa consistently receives Academic Reputation and Lawyer/Judge Reputation scores consistent with the law school’s USNews overall ranking (this cannot be said for some similarly ranked law schools):

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2009/04/2009-reputational-scores-from-us-news-surveys-of-academics-and-practitioners.html

Look, Iowa’s law school (and, more generally, the Midwest region of the country) is largely misunderstood, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Iowa’s ability to produce well-trained, hard-working graduates that excel in the law practice. Get over it.

To 343:

Even as a student at GW upset at the rankings putting this all on Dean Lawrence is absurd. Wait a year, we'll probably move back to where we were. The school hasn't changed, just the methodology of the rankings.

321- I'm sorry Cornell rejected your law school application, but I'm sure you're beTTTer suiTTTed aTTT a differenTTT law school. Good luck!

correct link re employment data:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

Anyone can get into those Midwest and Southern schools.

Shouldn't the USNEWS Rankings have Cornell's bar passage rate at 99% instead of 90.9%?
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Dec08/BarTest.html

Shouldn't the USNEWS Rankings have Cornell's bar passage rate at 99% instead of 90.9%?
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Dec08/BarTest.html

347: that's the most TTT's i've ever seen anybody use in a sentence. for a cornell grad/student, you really shouldn't throw rocks...

Doesn't look like anyone has yet compared last year's overall scores/ranks.

01. ( - ) Yale - 100
02. ( - ) Harvard - 95 (+4)
03. ( -1) Stanford - 93 (+2)
04. ( - ) Columbia - 88 ( - )
05. ( - ) NYU - 87 (+2)
06. ( - ) Cal Berkley - 84 (+3)
06. (+1) U Chicago - 84 (+4)
08. ( -1) U Penn - 82 (+2)
09. ( - ) Michigan - 81 (+3)
10. (+2) Duke - 80 (+3)
10. ( -1) Northwestern - 80 (+1)
10. ( -1) UVA - 80 (+1)

GW and Fordham got what they deserved for trying to game the system.

-GULC 4L

276,

might as well add highest on playboy's party schools -- #2.

If you think your law school is superior to my school then you clearly have your head up your ass. My law school is objectively better than your law school according to surveys.

Your law school needs to get over its inferiority complex.

@302

Quit whining and pound the pavement.

While I agree that the school could could improve career resources, it is your job to find you a job.

Signed a 2007 Grad.

SyracuseTTT - back where it belongs. Such a trashy law school...only an idiot would waste that much money when they could go to Buffalo, #85 to boot, for 1/4 of the price.

Syracuse = TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Glad to see the rankings recognize Duke's/Chicago's movement. Get Penn out of there.

357 works at Jones Day.

GW's fall is strange, as is Cardozo's rise and G'Town's lack of movement. This is really sloppy, though. Brooklyn is not included in the part time rankings. The schools tied at 100 are also listed in the third tier. NYLS as top 11 part time? Could some have thought NYU?

If this is an incredibly elaborate hoax, it was good. If not, USNWR will be making lots of corrections!

354,

Whatever; median GT PT LSAT is a 164 - GT is guilty of the exact same crime.

Kind of in line with 361's comments, based on the above commentary on the effect that pooling the entire admitted student grouping into one at Fordham and GW cause the drop in both their numbers, I would be able to conclude that Cardozo and Brooklyn should have plummeted in the numbers. Unlike Fordham and GW, which have a legitimate night program which is often chock full of professionals with graduate degrees, both Cardozo and Brooklyn have part time day programs which they funnel about a third of their first year class into. Cardozo, not only didn't plummet, but actually went up in the rankings.

Let’s look at the Numbers that US News Posted for Fordham, GW, Cardozo and Brooklyn last year.

Full Time LSAT Range:

Fordham: 163-167

GW: 163-168

Cardozo: 162-166

Brooklyn: 162-165

Part time:

Fordham: 160-163

GW: 160-165

Cardozo: 157-160

Brooklyn: n/a

Now, lets look at this years, supposed numbers:

Fordham: 161-166

GW: 162-168

Cardozo: 159-165

Brooklyn: 162-165

Part time:

Fordham: 161-166

GW: 162-168

Cardozo: 159-160

Brooklyn: n/a

First observation is that it does not appear that Brooklyn has incorporated any of their "part time day" numbers into the formula. Question would then be, were any part-time day numbers included at all (including for Cardozo)?

In general, though, the whole thing just doesn’t seem right. Why was Georgetown unaffected by the new system? Could this be an ubber-elaborate hoax or is this just one more example of US News not conducting proper diligence?

340 (and 322) -

Yeah, our weather sucks, but we love UMich anyway. I highly doubt you'll find a more friendly and more laidback student body (as law students go:) I turned down Columbia to go here and i have never regretted it for a second. The weather is so worth the people.

AND employers love us. http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

Go Blue!
-- Michigan 2L

362,

i think that maybe that was the point of 354's post. please kill self.

-uva 1L

364 = Rejected by Moritz (Ohio State Law School)

Obviously it's a joke:

U of Maryland at 43
U of Georgia at 35
U of Washington at 30
U of Alabama at 30
U of Iowa at 26
U of Minnesota at 20
U of Texas-Austin at 15

I mean seriously.... Who would want to study at any of these locations?
-------------------------------------------

I would have to agree with this comment....what can these schools actually offer anyone. They have NOTHING going for them....no significant market, no big firm presence at any of these places, etc. Show's what a joke these rankings are.

51: Texas always has had higher peer and lawyer/judge assessment scores than UCLA. I am not sure why you would think UCLA has a better reputation than Texas.

My resume:

Iowa grad.

top 33%

BigLaw Houston (same salary as you in NYC)

5,000 square feet and a Lexus.

Bitches.

#369.....IT'S HOUSTON....one of the most horrific cities to live in!!!

What do you do- drive back and forth to the "mall" on weekends? I mean, what is there to do in Houston other than steakhouses, malls, and highway driving.
Oh, and can we talk about UC Boulder- lolz. I remember some girl bragging last year about the ranking. TTT

371 - you just described America. DO you hate amerika? why do you hate this country?

NYU SHOULD be below Chicago and Columbia. First off, Chicago and Columbia are historically more prestigious. Secondly, in the past few years, NYU has taken the worst Columbia (Estlund, Waldron, Issacharoff, Sharkey, and Alvarez) and Chicago (Epstein, likely Eric Posner) profs, which makes Chicago and Columbia leaner and more effective.

I'm obviously kidding. A lot of posters are hitting the nail on the head commenting on the "perception" gap. NYU has historically had issues with that, and will keep having issues with that. And if you're looking for a reason Chicago shot up even with the massive exodus to the Obama administration, to Harvard, etc. etc., obviously the answer is that Brian Leiter is there, and that man is a marketing genius.

If you are single, I can certainly understand not wanting to spend your mid-twenties in Bloomington, Champaign-Urbana, or Iowa City, as these towns are dominated by undergraduates, don't draw as many interesting concerts/performances, and don't have professional sports teams. Beyond these reasons, though, it's foolish to disregard these law schools, which have faculties that exceed their "peers" and are a much greater value. Faculties and firms know that many big city schools, like those whose ranks fell today, are mediocre. These city schools are flooded with adjuncts, and have inflated ranks only because of their proximity to major legal markets. Who would want to study at such a location?

Who cares. In general, nothing happens with these rankings from year to year. Why do people get so fucking excited about this.

Also, although US News may shape impressions of incoming students (because they are retarded) it takes a long time to change the consensus view of lawyers, academics, judges, etc. Meaning, specifically regarding the T6, no one outside of the students attending those schools {NYU, Boalt, Penn} honestly can say, with a straight face, that:

{NYU, Boalt, or Penn}
should any of them be higher or even tied with
{Chicago or Columbia}

For the last ?3? years, to move magazines, US news has been fucking around with the T6. But law schools don't change that fast. So the magazine just loses credibility because it's apparent that it doesn't track the way in which those who hire, run, and operate the profession actually perceive the world.

(Preface: I'm absolutely serious)

There is no better place to watch a football game than Kinnick Stadium in Iowa City. The law school is 1/4 mile from the stadium. Vera nice.

Speaking of horrific cities, I nominate NYC:

1/3 women in NYC have herpes, housing is atrociously expensive, the city government is insolvent, and the largest income generating industry (financial services) has died. Those are only the highlights.

I'd rather drive a Boxter on the highway, eat steak, and go to the mall in a horrific city like Houston than live in NYC right now. Just sayin'.

Why does anyone other than kids looking to go to law school care about this? I know kids from Harvard/Yale/Columbia/other top schools who are unemployed or could only get gov jobs after graduation. I also know kids who went to tier 3/4 schools who are current partners in BIGLAW and got into BIGLAW post graduation. Those of you who care about this shit are the embarassment of this community.

As has been pointed out before, firms are 'pack actors'--they function as oligopolies, straining to read one another's signals. Meaning all it takes is one V50 'blinking' (as Baker seems to have done) for a wide swath of firms around it to do the same. Whoever speculated that the V10 is 'safe' is probably correct--for the moment. But this is going to move like a cascade. I guarantee you that firms lower than V10 all the way down that are currently basing at 160k are going to be talking about this, and, all else being equal, they're going to feel a hell of a lot better with a decision to lower salaries now that B&M has done so. It's only one more stage for the V10 to do the same--they'll just hold out slightly longer.

If the economy wern't sour, the fact that one firm does this would be pretty meaningless--Baker would just stand at a competitive disadvantage. But, to the extent this becomes a trend within the broader industry, that's not going to factor in. When times are tight and unemployment is at 10%, being at a competitive hiring disadvantage isn't on anyone's mind. Rather, people are looking to save costs. There are enough fish in the sea to still get good people now. By the time the economy does turn around and hiring once again matters, a new equilibrium will be reached. (By the time this is over, I could very easily see NY going to 145 with pure performance bonus and other major cities to 125 or 130 with pure performance bonus)

The whole legal hiring and operating model is a confused mess. It's going to evolve and that evolution is going to be rough. I don't think that means that lawyers are going to lose access to affluence-building levels of income--the law firm of 2020 isn't going to be a blue collar job factory. However, the way in which performance is measured and pay distributed is going to change.

The people most affected are the ones caught in the middle of the transition, meaning associates for the next 10 years.

Sorry wrong forum.

::feels like an idiot::
::contacts Baker & McKenzie looking for a job::
379

Epstein is very, very close to retirement and ill. I'm surprised he took the move to NY, but I wouldn't expect him to be actively teaching much longer. He was in the hospital for the most of the time I was in his Roman law class (2005).

WHY I THINK THIS IS FALSE/BULLSHIT:

Let's jump to the Tier 3/4 area just for some comparison:

Tier 4

top school: Appalachian school of law
LSAT: 147-152, GPA 2.67-3.09, 08 acceptance rate: 45%, employment after graduation 64.8%, Bar passage rate: 89.7% TN.

Ranked over 10 slots lower: Florida International
LSAT: 152-156, GPA:3.05-3.58, 08 acceptance rate: 26%, employment after graduation: 93.2%, Bar passage rate: 87.8% FL.

So, bar passage rate 9% lower and everything else higher makes it worse? Then why did U. Connecticut drop rankings when all the other areas were worse, but their CT bar passage rate increased from the previous year?

OR Brooklyn law school has an 83% NY bar passage rate and that puts it in tier 2, yet Pace law school has an 85% NY bar passage rate and it's a Tier 4?

Either these rankings are false or complete bullshit. Just my thoughts. And I don't go to any of the schools I mentioned above. Just something seems fishy it you look further down the list.

Just my thoughts. How the hell is U. Cal LA top 20 school when it's bar passage rate is 66%!!!! Tier 4's are better than that. And really, what does undergrad GPA/LSAT score matter if you can't get over a third of your students to pass the bar.

My piece. Thanks for reading.

WHY I THINK THIS IS FALSE/BULLSHIT:

Let's jump to the Tier 3/4 area just for some comparison:

Tier 4

top school: Appalachian school of law
LSAT: 147-152, GPA 2.67-3.09, 08 acceptance rate: 45%, employment after graduation 64.8%, Bar passage rate: 89.7% TN.

Ranked over 10 slots lower: Florida International
LSAT: 152-156, GPA:3.05-3.58, 08 acceptance rate: 26%, employment after graduation: 93.2%, Bar passage rate: 87.8% FL.

So, bar passage rate 9% lower and everything else higher makes it worse? Then why did U. Connecticut drop rankings when all the other areas were worse, but their CT bar passage rate increased from the previous year?

OR Brooklyn law school has an 83% NY bar passage rate and that puts it in tier 2, yet Pace law school has an 85% NY bar passage rate and it's a Tier 4?

Either these rankings are false or complete bullshit. Just my thoughts. And I don't go to any of the schools I mentioned above. Just something seems fishy it you look further down the list.

Just my thoughts. How the hell is U. Cal LA top 20 school when it's bar passage rate is 66%!!!! Tier 4's are better than that. And really, what does undergrad GPA/LSAT score matter if you can't get over a third of your students to pass the bar.

My piece. Thanks for reading.

347,

I happily turned down Cornell with $$ for a school right below.

Love, 321

The dedicated "Latham sucks" guy (or girl) is ridiculous. Bitter much? Just because Oracle doesn't call you up when they want to buy Sun Micro...

@383 -- Bar passage rate is considered compared to the state passage rate. So UCLA's bar passage rate doesn't hurt it too much. The other factors are also much more important than bar passage.

In the tier 3/4 area, the schools are listed alphabetically, not ranked. That's why Appalachian is well above Florida.

383 - You misread UCLA's bar passage rate, as I think you may have with Appalachian and FIU (though I didn't bother to check).

You cited the state's bar passage rate. UCLA's is somewhere in the 80's or low 90's.

@382/383
UCLA's bar passage is something like 89%. The 66% bar passage rate you cite is the passage rate for all of California.

Also, as stated above, the Tier 3/4 schools are listed alphabetically, not numerically. Hence, Appalachian State is the first school listed in its tier.

386,

Then I am retarded and apologize. :) A little embarrassed. I didn't see that. I just don't see how undergrad GPA and LSAT score factors more than bar passage rate.

383

386,

Then I am retarded and apologize. :) A little embarrassed. I didn't see that. I just don't see how undergrad GPA and LSAT score factors more than bar passage rate.

383

378 - Law school grads follow law school rankings for the same reason they follow sports, but as far as their actual merits--You are familiar with the difference between an anecdote and a statistic?

The job prospects and future career of the average Columbia student will be much better than the job prospects of the average tier 3/4 students. The fact you know people who are outliers doesn't change the fact they're outliers. I may know somebody who dropped out of high school, but won the lottery--that says nothing about the merits of dropping out of high school.

Re 230/236/281: William and Mary has been hiring better faculty than W & L for the last two years, although the rankings drop this year seems to be a function of (prudent) students fleeing the trashy 3L program. (If that speaks to you, consider Baylor--at least it's in Waco, a kind-of city--which actually pioneered the "Third Year Practice Court Program," Stetson, in Tampa Bay, or Suffolk, in Boston. Also, with W & M now ranked higher than W & L for the first time in over a decade (ever?), the bottom is going to fall out rather quickly -- who is going to pay private school rates for W & L rather than the in-state rates at W & M? It's too bad, really. It just shows how a really bad decision (the trashy 3L program) can have serious institutional consequences. . .

391 - I think you proved 378's point. Sports are at least interesting and fun. Rankings are dull and boring.

"If you are single, I can certainly understand not wanting to spend your mid-twenties in Bloomington, Champaign-Urbana, or Iowa City, as these towns are dominated by undergraduates, don't draw as many interesting concerts/performances, and don't have professional sports teams"

1.) Aren't attractive undergrads a good thing for single law students?

2.) Who needs a boring professional sports team when you attend a school with a strong college sports culture?

A 0.1 reputation score difference between NYU and Columbia/Chicago is much closer than it used to be. For a while those two had the reputation scores of HLS, whereas NYU hovered around the middle of the pack of the top schools.

Michigan got great reputation scores for years on these rankings merely because the people voting for them went to law school back when it used to be considered a top 3-5 school. There was a couple decade lag between Michigan falling out of that grouping and its reputation scores reflecting that, so I'd hardly expect Chicago's scores to reflect that overnight.

That said, the job prospects of Michigan students reflected that change a lot more quickly and, rankings be damned, that's what you have to worry about.

Whatever the admissions numbers says, whatever faculty comes and goes, at the moment a Chicago student is going to have better job prospects than a UVA or a Michigan student and I'm willing to bet the US News guys fudge these things to reflect that. It's taken a hell of a beating lately, though (I don't care whether he's old or not, it's Richard f'ing Epstein), and without coming back strong that presents a future problem.

"Sports are at least interesting and fun. Rankings are dull and boring."

Not if it's your team and you get to argue with other people about it--that's the fun part.

Besides, his larger point seemed to be that what law school you went to won't matter much for your future career and, I'm sorry, whether it's a good thing or not, it matters a s--tload.

how about USD +21?

(whew...)

395: Columbia is an Ivy.

396 - ?

Point being?

Sorry that should be "398"

What's your point?

I like Columbia. I'm happy here and I'm learning a lot.

400, 395 is a (probably NYU) troll.

Oh shut up 401...

All US law schools suck.

402 -

Gee, ya think - wow, Sherlock, some deductive skills you've got there.

It's not really being a troll, though, when I'm open about it -- just like other people shilling for their schools here.

Just one thing to remember:

We have Epstein and you don't.

And that's all that matters.

405 - relax, cowboy. Don't want to break from the 'everyone's SO chill here' shtick. I made a typo in the previous post and meant 398.

- 402

367:

I hear what you are saying but that makes no since for Texas?

State is the fastest growing, has 3 of the nations top 10 largest cities and 5 of the top 25 in the US.

UT Law has no competitors until you get to LA, Chicago or Nashville. They dominate a huge part of the nation.

322--

Chicago hands down. Michigan is larger (fewer job prospects) and less prestigious (fewer job prospects).

Even if all things were equal, go to the smaller school. Lower supply = higher demand.

"Even if all things were equal, go to the smaller school. Lower supply = higher demand."

Ok, that's just stupid. Firms don't have a demand for lawyers from X school, they have a demand for lawyers, period. If I'm a partner, I'm not going to hire someone because there are fewer graduates of their school to go around. I don't have a quota of 10 Chicago students and 10 Michigan students or anything stupid like that.

I'll hire the Chicago kid because I think Chicago is a better school probably, but the size thing, if anything, cuts the other way. More Michigan grads means more patronage from other Michigan grads.

409:

You must be a 1L--firms in fact do have a demand for lawyers from 'X' school. Indeed, it is known that certain firms have soft quotas for grads from each school. This is very common practice in the whole OCI-hiring-interview dance. For some reason, firms really do group on law school. That's why places like Yale and Chicago have an advantage over places like Harvard and Columbia and Georgetown (in this area, not making a broader statement): there are less to go around of the former group than the latter, which increases their relative value, particularly outside the 'home' market.

You guys can all STFU. Is there really such a difference in the educational quality between, say - #3 and #8? It's all subjective.

Great job, Elie. This post is still on the front page of the site, and you still haven't fixed the link to your C: drive. Dumbass.

Forget US News. Think for a minute about the wrenching structural change that's going on. Odds are good that this isn't just a recession, but an actual restructuring where finance and securities (and their lawyers) will emerge smaller with fewer jobs and profits (and higher taxes from the Obama administration to help cover the harms they've externalized on the US taxpayer).

On-campus recruiting is going to be bad everywhere. But look at the layoffs and you can see that particularly Charlotte and New York law firms are shrinking drastically. That's really going to affect the employment numbers of places like UNC, Duke, Fordham and NYU (and probably at the margin Columbia) in the next few years.

So if you're mulling your options, it might be worth giving a "bump" to places like Berkeley (Silicon Valley), Chicago (still a huge corporate center apart from finance) and Georgetown (sucking at the government's amble bosom). Sure you can get those jobs out of Columbia or NYU or Duke, but it's surely easier when you're sitting right there in town.

Wonder how many associates will lose their jobs because Latham took on another unproductive partner???

Latham & Watkins is pleased to announce that Brynn Peltz has joined the firm’s New York office as a partner in the Corporate Department. Peltz has a broad base of expertise advising financial institutions, private equity, real estate and hedge fund sponsors, alternative asset managers and registered investment companies with respect to all aspects of the Investment Advisers Act of 1940 and the Investment Company Act of 1940. Peltz has more than twenty years experience advising clients on matters including fund formation, registration and offering, structuring of financial products, adviser registration, compliance and other regulatory issues. She is among a very small set of practitioners globally with deep knowledge of exchange-traded funds and other structured wealth management products with fund characteristics. Click here to read the press release.

322--

Chicago. All of the things that are "good" about Michigan are amplified at Chicago.

Clerkships, employment, academic positions...etc. All better at Chicago.

Dayum! GW got clowned on! 333 - thanks for a legit post not filled with hyperbole. Yes, that's exactly why GW dropped like a stone. -8 places is a huge drop for a law school in the top 30. I'm wondering if the employment statistics were affected because of the PT inclusion. Anyway, same thing happened to Texas in 2007 when they allegedly misreported their employment statistics. Remember, they dropped to three places from 15 to 18 because of it?

For some reason, that particular metric has a huge impact on the ranking more so than LSAT or GPA. I don't understand why USNWR puts such an emphasis on this retarded statistic.

Dear GW law students:

You're fucking OUT!!!

- Kenny Powers

Those in the top five look at this discussion and just smile to themselves.

I hire many attorneys for a large law firm. I don't care about law school rankings. If you go Tier 1 or Tier 2 law school that is accredited, I don't pay much more attention to the school. I care about class rank. At a better school, I will go a bit deeper into the rankings. But even at a Top 10 school, I won't go to the bottom half of the class. If you are in the top 10% at a much lower ranked school (one that does not even appear on lists), I'm generally fine. I care about what you have done with your life and what experiences you have had. I need you to be able to think like a practical lawyer, work hard, and have a great attitude. School rankings tell me nothing about how good an attorney you will be. In fact, in general my experiences with Boalt and Yale grads have been awful.

418:

If those in the 'top five' do that, they are a bunch of fucking tools.

Fordham can expect to be knocked out of the top 40 next year. If the rankings ever adjust for the sketchy employment numbers Fordham might not stay in the top 50. It has over 98% of grads having employment after 9 months when that number is probably closer to 78 from what my friends tell me, they send out an email stating that if you do not reply they assume you are still working. Yeah Right. Good luck to those foolish enough to decide on Fordham. Poor teaching, Hapless Administration, and overcrowded like you cannot believe.

419:
"I don't pay much more attention to the school. I care about class rank. At a better school, I will go a bit deeper into the rankings."

This is called a contradictory statement. You obviously care about the rankings, or you wouldn't look deeper into the class at a higher ranked school. That is EXACTLY why these rankings matter (to those in school).

-2nd Year BIGLAW (who doesn't care but finds this still amusing)

321/384-

I'm confidenTTT you're TTTelling TTThe TTTruTTTh. Good Luck!

I doubt these are real - but if they are, it just shows how stupid the rankings are - there is no way GW is ranked 28! What a load of crap!

GW rises; GW falls. Southern Methodist remains.

Employment at graduation is a very sketchy number. I asked in our CSO if the number meant a law related job. They kind of danced around the issue for a while and ultimately said that it means anyone is employed doing anything. So since we didn't need to attend law school to bag groceries, it is a completely useless statistic.

I hear GW is trying to shore up its falling reputation with the nation's first program in pirate law. Yarrr!

Where's Tulsa?

428,

Tulsa is in Oklahoma, which is the state directly to the north of the Republic. You're welcome.

Hey 259,

Sorry you're so miserable over at Hastings. If only you had a friendly atmosphere to study in, or perhaps an actual campus, or maybe even one of the top Moot Court programs, then you wouldn't be such a hater. But you don't.

Davis has worked hard since last year's rankings came out. We earned that jump.

It makes no sense that Suffolk is T4 and considered the same as NESL.
1) It has about 20-25 students heading to V100 firms every year and even more going to firms paying market. Always more than Northeastern.
2) NESL has 0 going to V100 firms and everyone in Boston knows there is a huge difference between Suffolk and NESL.
3) No one would ever choose NESL over Suffolk and 100s of students choose Suffolk over Northeastern every year. Why exactly is it considered on the same tier?
4) Suffolk professors own E&E which is the most common supplement used in law school. You all know you've heard of Glannon.
5) Suffolk is the alma matter for James Sokolove, the richest non-big law attorney in the world and the "middleman of lawsuits."
6) Suffolk pays its president more than any school in the world.
7) The law building is a masterpiece, especially compared to the BU dump.

LOL @ the Suffolk TTTroll.

#25 said: "GW isn't going to be 28 (sorry everyone)."

LOL.