FIRST! and first not to be at V&E or worrried about that sort of thing

fist to say hoe

I'm glad my firm is cutting summers by >30%.

For getting an offer, which number is more important? The percentage decrease of summers in your office, or percentage decrease of summers firmwide?

I couldn't be happier about my decision to go with Munger over V&E. What a dump.

LOL at "performance" as a 1L summer.

My cat could do their administrative work... i.e. stread documents. sit around waiting for stuff. act as a paper weight. Perhaps they should fire their paralegals and hire my cat.

Here's what I've learned watching what happened to our junior associates at Thompson Hine:

1) "The firm is fine and isn't doing layoffs" = stealth layoffs are rampant.

2) "The firm is doing everything it can to avoid layoffs" = enjoy your 1/6th paycut assholes!

3) *silence* = nice fat round of layoffs, but at least the staff got screwed harder than associates in round 3.

-Rogue Associate

ENRON!!!

It sucks, I am one of those "ten." What can you do...

It would have been nice to have two offers at the end of the summer (I really doubt we'll get one, even though they said they would consider us), but at least I have another great firm job for the summer. Normally, I'd care even less, but I was hoping to try a different V&E office this (2L) summer. Now that's not gonna happen.

That being said, it would have been nice to find this out a few months ago. Waiting until April to tell us is pretty shitty - they knew the market was bad months ago - but again, what can you do! In this crap economy, you can only cross your fingers and hope this 200K "ivy league" degree is worth the paper its printed on.

Good luck to the incoming V&E summers, I hope your experience is as good as mine was. Too bad we won't get to work together, either now or next year.

On a side note, I knew I should have gone to fashion design school...

MacGRUBER!

Anybody know anything about other offices? Especially their NYC office?

These firms better pony up some fucking health insurance during the time they are deferring us. Stipends are not worth shit without that! And dont give me any shit about being "entitled". I can't do dick for 6 months now after I take the bar exam.

Amen, 13.

13, that was pretty gay. Even for you.

5, what is a "munger"? Similar to a "munson"?

Hahaha, 8, your bitching about Thompson Hine is hilarious. That place is a shithole! The only place they get any respect is the bustling, profitable, and prestigious OHIO market. Your firm gets laughed out of the major markets.

Instead of trying to be "Rogue" inside the firm, why don't you get a job at a real business? Maybe working the register at a Dairy Queen...

yeah, what is a munger?

I stepped in some munger once.

Vinson & Elkins Houston office stinks like 100 secretary Road-Warriors.

He totally mungered that chick.

15= sexist. 13's comment is only gay if 13 is a guy. 13 may be a woman worried about contracting STDs by "doing dick" without the benefit of "fucking health insurance" which would obviously cover said STDs.

12, V&E NY seems to be doing well. Staying pretty busy and the size of V&E NY summer class is exactly what they wanted.

When I summered I did no work, banged a secretary on the 18th floor copy machine and got so lit at a firm event I drove into a lake. 8 years later I'm close to being admitted to partnership.

Key take aways: Those days are over, I got Herp from that secretary and my car still smells like a ducks ass.

Does anyone know if Kash likes married men?

"We don't have any predetermined number of offers we're going to extend"

V&E 2Ls are screwed.

I went to NYC and contracted V&E?

I really liked V&E Dallas and almost took their summer offer, but now I think I dodged a bullet.

Is anybody else turned on by statements about duck ass?

How do people think 2L grades factor into their decision to give permanent offers? Are they going to be important now or is more the work you do and your personality?

29 = racist

If I am top 10% at SMU, is V&E for me?

30 -- is more writing skill

32, you're pretty much mungered at this point.

30 - grades only matter if you are not in a T-15.

Its powdered sugar and its delicious!

When I went down to Vinson & Elkins hunting lodge in Houston last summer me and my boys mungered the ish out of some duck ass.

Glad that ATL cared enough to add this news to today's layoff watch. Oftentimes when its JUST the staff, it goes unnoticed. And yes, staff are treated like criminals when they are let go. At my firm they aren't even allowed collect their belongs -- just their purse and coat and out the door you go under watch of security! Then they box up your things and ship them to you. The cruelty of it is unbelievable. Kirkland at least gave their outgoing staff a little farewell party. I thought that was classy. They did semi-force retirement upon a secretary with some 54 years at the firm. Sure she was old but K&E was her whole life. Her whole life and she was devoted.

@37 - Did you eat it afterward?

Just to clarify...only those returning 2L's who were planning to spend time at V&E after 7/17 are affected. Returning 2L's who are splitting with V&E and another firm and are spending their time at V&E before 7/17 will not be affected...

...at least I haven't received a call yet...LOL...yeesh...

38 - ???????

13: Seriously, why the fuc* did you (and all the other morons like you) go to law school in the first place? I mean, why not learn to ply an honest trade--something that actually contributes to the GDP. You just bore me w/ your petty whining.

Don't call 13 gay.

This is lame. I would hate to be evaluated based on my 1L summer performance. I'm sure a lot of those summers would have chosen V&E if they knew it was one or the other.

I agree with what was said in an earlier post that the savings to the firm are not worth the bad PR.

V&E = the newest TTT firm in Texas.

42, amen to that. These screaming pussies are just that. They deserved to get fired/delayed, etc. Why did they get hired in the first place? Who would want these pussies?

44, don't be surprised when the other big Texas firms follow suit.

V&E is the new Greenberg Traurig.

Locke Lord is about to become king of the hill.

V&E might as well give sybian toys in lieu of severance to their departing associates and staffers. If the management committee springs extra for lubrication, I think it would be a fair goodbye package.

41 - What what? You didn't know K&E offered a buy-out to staff or you didn't know they were sending staff off like criminals. One Chicago firm herded staff in to one conference room. By the end of the meeting their key cards to the "Sears Tower" were deactivated and they had no access to computer systems.

35= shameless Vandy troll

12 - V&E NYC associates may (we'll see about that) have work to do, but money they will not have with the deferred comp cut.

32 - I heard from V&E hiring people that they will only consider (generally) top 5% from SMU-level law schools.

SMU?

42 is a criminal

Wow, am I the only person who doesn't think this is that big of a deal. Seems like some people are slightly overreacting.

Slow news day, huh? I can't believe that this V&E summer program baloney is the subject of TWO stories on ATL. Seems like some entitled d-bag 2Ls have been spamming ATL's editors like crazy.

This story is lame and no one cares that you 10 pathetic 2Ls have lost 2 weeks of salary or even have lost a "potential" offer. There are thousands of attorneys who either don't have a job or are waiting for the axe to fall, so your little cry-baby stories are meaningless in the big picture. Besides, the percentage of 1Ls who split their 2L summer and end up choosing their 1L firm is miniscule. NO ONE CARES!

I agree with 55. We've known about the large VE Houston class for a long time. If the firm is as healthy and busy as its advocates say it is, then it will try to find a home for a lot of these people. The firm is not in an inherently worse situation than anyone else right now. If anything, it's relative lack of leverage puts it in a better position.

All I can say is thank God I chose Harvard over Texas. -at V&E this Summer.

All I can say is thank God that bull kicked me the balls.

As over the ongoing saga of the V&E 2Ls as I am, do we really want to hear more of the agonizing same from recently laid off associates?

BREAKING NEWS- Being laid off sucks and according to a recently laid off attorney "I have nothing to do but scratch my balls". Story at 11.

54--42 a criminal? Hell, 42 is the only one here talking sense. The rest of you are just whiney pussies.

16 - you don't know what "mung" is? I thought everybody knew what "mung" is.

HEY! EVERYBODY! 16 doesn't know what "mung" is!

I don't want a large Farva, I want a god damn liter of cola!

HEY BAKER BOTTS (I know you're reading this): Are you going to "one-up" V&E (like usual after they announce something) and leave 3L start dates in Oct.-Nov. like you said, or are you going to be a lemming and push back to January?

52- I predict that most Texas firms will only consider top 5% at SMU (and peer schools) from now on, if they don't already. And I guarantee SMU 2Ls will be first on the list of potential no-offers

Texas is soo TTT!!!!! How do you like your Lexis and 3500 sq ft wife now???

- Yeshiva 1L

66-
What the hell is a Yeshiva 1L?

67 - 'Yeshiva' is Yiddish for 'Hat made from a duck ass'

Elie and crew,
thanks for forcing information from different firms. this is a valuable resource for us students. Keep it up.

66/68-
Stop being an offensive prick. If you don't have real info about V&E, stfu

Duckasslobster is a delicacy in Houston.

70, thank you for your valuable insight on the situation.

Really shitty of VE to do this. If they hadn't stupidly oversubscribed their summer classes, this wouldn't be happening. Back in August, who's bright fucking idea was it to hire 77 summer associates IN THIS ECONOMY? Now the returning 2Ls are subsidizing the moronic decision with their blood.

VE LIST OF SHAME (THUS FAR):
- PUSHING BACK START DATE
- STEALTH LAYOFFS
- RESCINDING SUMMER ASSOCIATE OFFERS
- CANCELING RETREAT WEEKEND

RON KIRK WOULDN'T PUT UP WITH THIS BULLSHIT IF HE WAS STILL THERE

I think it is hilarious that anyone can say with a straight face that they are glad they didnt choose V&E or that V&E shouldnt have pushed back start dates, or any other BS whining. The fact is that V&E is probably the safest firm to be at right now. They pushed start dates back 2 months, BFD! They did away with making exceptions for summer associates who wanted to split between multiple firms, BFD! I'd be happy to be at V&E right now or as a summer associate. Have you been reading ATL lately. The theme has been layoffs and start dates pushed back to January 2010 earliest.

52, V&E NY office does not have a deferred comp concept. They pay straight NY scale (base salary at least).

75 - you are an idiot if you really think VE will let the associates willingly choose November start date. VE has still had layoffs. VE did away with making exceptions AFTER they said it was fine for the past 9 months. It's a fucking dick move to spring this bullshit on people a month before they start work. Had VE simply said there were no exceptions, people wouldn't be so pissed off.

Stop slobbin on corporate law firm knob

77, not 75 but get off this layoff shit. V&E has not had layoffs. People have been let go for performance reasons because they weren't cutting it. Guess what people were let go in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and yes 2009 because they aren't cutting it there.

The idea that everybody who gets let go in a poor economy is a "stealth layoff" is bullshit. People suck when times are good and people suck when times are bad. Those people aren't be laid off they are being fired. Albeit the ones I know at V&E the management is being pretty nice about.

Amen 78

78 - You must be new around here because that kind of mindset has no place here at ATL. People can't get fired because of performance. The only explanation for anything these days are stealth layoffs. Come on now have you not been brainwashed by Elie and everybody else at ATL yet

Ok things suck here, but not as bad as they suck in New York.

- A double wide, a gently pre-owned Chevy pickup and a big-haired wife in acid wash jeans in Texas

credit 75.
V&E is relatively safe. Even for people who are in a bigger-than-usual summer class in Houston - you honestly think you're better off elsewhere? Unless that elsewhere is Wachtell or a (very small) handful of other places, you're wrong

Can anyone actually confirm that the Austin weekend has been cancelled? I haven't heard anything from my (non-Houston) office about it...

83, I'm an associate at V&E and haven't heard that it has been canceled. Now it's very expensive weekend so I wouldn't be suprised but I have not officially heard it has been canceled. Haven't even heard of anybody talk about it actually.

82 here again-
I forgot to mention, with respect to this quote in the ATL post: "But we are taking a long term view to our hiring."

To the extent that that can be taken at face value, all of you 2L whiners better realize that this attitude is only a good thing for you. How many other firms are freaking out and well no-offer their entire class rather than ensure they have enough talent on hand when the economy picks up? Be thankful you're going to an optimistic firm (let's hope they are right about their prognosis)

78 - Get off this "these people must have just sucked" diatribe. The people I know of that were asked to move on did not "suck." Many of them had good-to-excellent performance reviews in the past, and received compliments from clients and partners alike over the past year. If they truly sucked, that shouldn't be the case - their performance reviews in years past should have indicated that there was a problem and the partners shouldn't have told them that their work was "excellent" and that they would be "a lead attorney" in upcoming cases. If these people really sucked, V&E should not have to fabricate performance reviews in order to get rid of them. I can't tell you the number of people who were read things in their performance reviews that were untrue - claims that people had done poorly on projects they never heard of or had performed poorly for partners they had never worked for. And if this is management's way of being "nice" about things, I'd hate to see what happens if they decided to get nasty.

This might come as a huge surprise to you, but sometimes things don't work out for people at large law firms for reasons other than work quality. Personality fit, ability to play office politics, whether or not you work for the "right" partners - all of these things play a major role and not all of them are in associate's control. Clearly, for whatever reason, VE was not interested in keeping the associates that were asked to move on, but it does not mean that they "sucked" or "can't cut it" at a law firm. VE's actually hired a lot of people that "couldn't cut it" at other law firms, so obviously not fitting in somewhere is a pretty common scenario that the firm should understand.

And if V&E is supposedly getting rid of everyone who sucks, I'd really like to know why certain partners are staying. Maybe V&E ought to take a harder look at the multitude of deadweight partners they have hanging around (some of whom seem to have plenty of time to post on this board).

84-
Thanks- I was only asking because several commenters (on this thread and the earlier one) have mentioned it in passing, and I didn't know if that was legit info or just 2Ls talking out of their paranoid asses

87, no problem, they might have but I just don't know. Good call on the fact that most people on here are talking out of their ass. It's amazing how much is made up.

For example, the guy at 86 is talking out of his ass. People have been asked to leave V&E for a variety of reasons but the number has been no greater than in any other year that I have worked for the firm. If 86 doesn't want to believe it then that is fine I don't really care, but don't try to spread false gossip can scare people.

Best of luck this summer 83. Should be a good time and contrary to what some on here might say I would be pretty surprised if most summer associates do not get an offer.

83, 84, 87 & 88 - email was sent to all summer associates in one office stating that the firm-wide weekend has been canceled, and replaced by office-only activities. if anyone's talking out of their ass, it's you two. go ask your AEO people if the weekend has been canceled.

88 - 86 here. Nowhere in my comment do I make the claim that there has been a larger number of people let go this year than in years past. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that this year's performance reviews did not accurately reflect performance, based on feedback throughout the year and past reviews, and that these people should not automatically be classified as "sucking," just because things weren't working out at VE.

As long as you bring it up though, it's interesting that you're claiming that the number is no greater - yet partners were told to be extra harsh on performance reviews this year so that enough people would be asked to leave. One would think that wouldn't be necessary if the same number of people are told each year.

Judging from the fact that you can't punctuate or form correct sentences, perhaps you too should be asked to move on.

87 -

It's not paranoia. I have the email sent from another V&E office saying that they "made a mistake regarding All Clerk Weekend in Houston" and that "this year each office will have individual events instead."

90, may I ask how you know what partners were told? You don't sound like anybody with enough insight to know such information.

Out of curiosity what office was told that All Clerk Weekend has been canceled?

I'm surprised people are moaning about a weekend event being cancelled. Those things are excruciating. I'd rather shove toothpicks up my fingernails than attend another one of those "events."

94- Those events can be excruciating, but VE's weekend retreat is usually the highlight of the summer. As a returning student, I'm disappointed that it won't happen but completely understand in light of the economy.

In a related note, I hope that firms don't cut back on the number of social events and instead just cut back on the costs of social events. Those events are perhaps the most important part of the summer - we already have an idea of the kind of work and the quality level of the respective firms, but we'd like to know more about the firm culture.

This post was right on:

"Really shitty of VE to do this. If they hadn't stupidly oversubscribed their summer classes, this wouldn't be happening. Back in August, who's bright fucking idea was it to hire 77 summer associates IN THIS ECONOMY? Now the returning 2Ls are subsidizing the moronic decision with their blood."

83 -- excuse me for not having very much freakin confidence in v&e's ability to plan for the long term! The economy tanked on sept 15th. Not sure when call back and offers were sent out, but why in the hell did the hire 140+ summers in a 700 lawyer firm??? That's a crazy amount even in a healthy economy! What firm hires 20% of their workforce (and 31% of their associate work force) in new summers???

Someone in HR screwed up, and the returning 2Ls are paying for it. Period V&e can spin it however it wants but that's what it comes down to -- piss poor management and an inability to plan beyond 2 months.

By the way, rumor is that v&e hired 1Ls this year again -- a decision made in Jan 2010! If things were that damn bad, why hire 1Ls????

wait a second -- the previous post said that only FIVE returning summers got totally screwed. Now it's TEN??? i guarantee you that by the end of the week, it'll be more like 25, for the following reason:

people who are splitting with another firm would rather extend their summers at their first firm (eg, into august) and make more cash, rather than return to v&e until only july 17th, and then twiddle their thumbs till late august. as summers scramble to work with their other firms to extend the summer, the numbers will go up.

96 - that's not a "rumor" that VE hired 1L's. the houston office hired four 1L's - two from harvard and two from the university of texas. rather than scrapping their 1L class entirely, VE made the decision that it was worth the investment of recruiting talented students from those two schools. it seems that no matter what firms do on here they're going to get crap for it: hiring 1L's, not hiring 1L's, laying people off, not saying all layoffs are economic, not laying enough people off, wasting money on too many summers, cutting back on firm events, not cutting back on events.

give the firms a break people.

98 -- yeah, that makes a lot of sense to screw over at least 10 returning 2Ls and then hire 1Ls!

good luck getting those 1Ls, especially the harvard ones, to accept their offers to return as 2Ls.

Texans are lame!

99-

VE won't have a problem getting people to return (they obviously didn't have a problem getting people to go there this summer). They have more Harvard students than anywhere else in town this summer.

101-

yeah, that was BEFORE the list of shame. as someone else mentioned, v&e is not the only game in town -- there's skadden, weil, gdc, among others. but keep telling yourself that everything will be fine.

VE LIST OF SHAME (THUS FAR):
- PUSHING BACK START DATE
- STEALTH LAYOFFS
- RESCINDING SUMMER ASSOCIATE OFFERS
- CANCELING RETREAT WEEKEND
- REDUCING DEFERRED COMP

102-
I'm not trying to keep harping on this issue, but I have not heard anything official from anybody about the retreat being canceled.

102, I'm not really sure that is a least of shame. Better than what most firms have done in this economy.

104-

But he used ALL CAPS, which, by definition, means it is HORRIBLE!!! Don't you understand ANYTHING????

I still think V&E is relatively safe, and I still think law students should not piss and moan until they are no-offered.

"The economy tanked on sept 15th. Not sure when call back and offers were sent out, but why in the hell did the hire 140+ summers in a 700 lawyer firm??? That's a crazy amount even in a healthy economy! What firm hires 20% of their workforce (and 31% of their associate work force) in new summers???"

I know, right? I totally agree, although your math is a little off - they only have 350 lawyers or so.

But the point remains: Cravath is doomed.

99:

one thing that v&e and a lot of firms are forgetting is that there's a big difference b/w students accepting an offer b/c they're desperate and have no other options, and accepting an offer b/c they're proud and enthusiastic to work for a world-class firm that has shown 100% loyalty to their associates (and to their returning summer associates).

The latter will work hard, develop the firm's good rep, and maintain strong ties to the firm even after they leave (ie, become future clients). This is what well-run professional firms like mckinsey and cravath do.

In contrast, the former group of people will do the bare minimum and will get the hell out as soon as things pick up and other opptys arise, and will have no loyalty to the firm nor maintain ties after leaving. That's not the way to run a law firm or any professional organization.

So i agree with you -- v&e will likely not hurt for warm bodies, and may even score a few top students from top schools who want to live in Texas. But that's much different from cultivating a long-term, tight culture that breeds pride and loyalty, even among alumni who choose to go elsewhere. The "list of shame" policies cited above (especially the cheap-ass summer associate offer reneging, which saves like $100k) WILL have an adverse effect, whether you admit or not, and their rep around top campuses and in the profession will suffer. They will spend 10x that restoring it.

107 -- let me know when v&e comes within $2mm of cravath's ppp, then perhaps they can make cravath-type mistakes and still be OK.

104:

"most" firms have not reneged summer offers.

Tell me more about the K & E staff layoffs and party in Chicago. We haven't had anything like that. How many were affected?

K & E New York

It's ridiculous how overblown this issue is being made out to be. In a week, no one will remember that ten former 1L SAs had a restriction put on when they could come back to the firm (not an reneged offer). Among law students, the only thing that will matter is 2L offer rate so this will not tarnish V&E's rep as long as it is not an indicator of what will happen come offer time.

112, that's not the story here. They said they don't have a predetermined number of offers they're going to extend. A lot of 2ls probably won't get offers.

113-
Don't be ridiculous. No firm has a "predetermined offer rate." V&E is not going to come out and say, "we plan to make offers to 99%" or whatever. That's not how this game works. Please, for the love of God, hold your bitching until you get no-offered.

112 -

Your missing the point. Reneging on summer offers--because that is what happened, however you choose to spin it (a "restriction" would have been imposed last September)--is an indication to potential and future summers that this firm's word can't be trusted. True, let's keep this issue in perspective. But seriously, the 2L move--in APRIL--was really poor form. The vast majority of firms have chosen not to engage in this douchebaggery.

And you better bet that next year, when 1Ls and 2Ls come and ask them about their firm experiences, they won't have great things to say about the way V&E treated them.

The story is yet to be told. That statement is a poor indicator, but all that will matter for recruiting new students or maintaining a positive environment for incoming associates will be what actually happens.

115-
You are being incredibly infantile. Firms need to cut costs in this ecnomony. Get your head out of the sand. This might seem like a trivial cost to you, but firms have target savings, budgets, etc. The firm has not deprived you of anything- you had your V&E summer, and you will be considered for a permanent offer based on that summer. That is no more, no less than any other summer associate can ask. Newsflash- 1L SA hiring is going the way of the dodo. And who knows what the future of BigLaw summer associate programs will be in general. Consider yourself lucky you have a legitimate shot at an offer at V&E, and hopefully whatever firm you'll be at this summer.

116-
I don't see that statement as a poor indicator. I think any other firm from Wachtell on down would say the same thing. I have never heard a firm say, "We guarantee that 100% of our SAs will get offers." That would be insanity. And especially in the Texas market, where historically the percentage of offers is below NYC - I just don't understand what you expected them to say.

112 - don't be a moron. THEY RENEGED THE OFFERS, ANY WAY YOU SPIN IT!

Say i get an offer from cadwalader. Then i accept the offer in Oct (and therefore become committed, according to NALP). But then say I get an offer from Cravath in Nov. AM I ALLOWED TO ACCEPT CRAVATH'S OFFER, THEN CALL CADWALADER IN FREAKIN APRIL AND TELL THEM THAT ""i'm not reneging my aceptance, but i won't show up to work until August."???

Based on your logic, that would be just fine. You should look at substance over form. Get a clue. Based on your logic, if v&e told an associate that he wasn't being laid off by that he could only work 3 days a year, that would be legit in your book.

NO vault 50 FIRM to my knowledge has completely reneged on summer offers -- directly or indirectly (by pulling some "hard stop" date out of its butt in april, which essentially forecloses returning 2Ls from working). THAT'S the story here.

another story from all this is NALP. why exactly should students have to follow nalp guidelines when law firms like v&e get to do whatever the hell they want and renege on offers in april? i understand that it's employment at will, but that works both ways.

119-
I still say, if the firm says it's going to consider your for a permanent offer, you have to take that at face value, and don't complain unless you get no-offered. We are living in extraordinary times. You should be thankful that you're not out on the streets.
-117

115/119 - you are an angry splitter. We get it. Apparently a nights worth of sleep did not help (though from reading your posts, I imagine you probably don't get much quality sleep). But as an incoming deferred associate, I was expecting to start on September 14th. I am giving up more than 30k in income (read: much more than you). My classmates at other firms are doing the same.
I know grads (with great credentials) from the class of 2008 who have already lost their jobs. They have serious student loan debt. And given this may be a long-term economic contraction, they have no prospects of reentering Biglaw and paying their debt while living a decent life. They are the ones with problems worth complaining about. Yet most of them accept that the firms had to cut costs somewhere.
You don't, and your sense of entitlement will surface wherever you end up. It's not going to be an associate's market in 2010 either.

121: Best. Post. Ever.

Yes, thank you 121 for pointing out some REAL problems, as opposed to this whiny VE 2L's lame complaints. Given the state of the economy and the legal market, I really don't see why this is something worth so much bitching and whining. Losing 2 weeks pay or a "potential" offer from a splitter firm is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, thank you 121 for pointing out some REAL problems, as opposed to this whiny VE 2L's lame complaints. Given the state of the economy and the legal market, I really don't see why this is something worth so much bitching and whining. Losing 2 weeks pay or a "potential" offer from a splitter firm is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

119:

If I worked at Cadwalader, I would love it if you rescinded your acceptance for the summer - no matter when you did so. No firm needs people like you running around with their bloated sense of self-importance and entitlement.

Do the legal industry a favor and drop out of law school.

The only story here is that splitters, like hundreds of other SAs across the country, got their summer shortened. Welcome to the 2009 economy. Times change - adapt or die.

-112

115-
According to your logic, the word of more than half of the firms in the V50 cannot be trusted b/c they changed their summer programs by shortening them. I had an summer offer from a firm that did not shorten, but I don't whine and b*tch and moan about how my firm changed the rules. I'm just they are still keeping their summer programs around. Especially since a lot of people have had to be let go due to this economy. Even if I don't get an offer, the money will help with tuition. Many (if not most) of the 1Ls going through OCI will not be as fortunate.

-a 2L SA who hopes that everyone at his firm will not think he is one of the little whiners that is posting here about shortened summers

121:

i think what115/119 is saying is that v&e can't have it both ways, Everyone realizes that times are tough and that firms gotta do what they gotta do. BUT, right now, v&e and its apologists on this board are acting like v&e is the victim, that it's not their fault, that the SAs should just suck it up, and that v&e is still a world-class firm after these cheap-ass moves.

In other words, if a firm acts like a cheap, short-term organization that reneges on offers, then at least fess up to it! Don;t pretend like everything's cool. v&e should have just said that they realize that this "hard stop" BS effectively forecloses many returning summers from working, and that this screws them over and is in stark contrast to the hard sell they were giving in the fall. They should also admit that they screwed up by hiring 140+ summers and various 1Ls even when they KNEW the economy was tanking. But don't pretend that the hard stop is just "normal policy" and it's somehow the SAs fault now if they can't work.

Bottom line: there are two classes of professional organizations out there. There are firms like cravath/s&c/wachtell/mckinsey that take care of their people, act with a long-term perspective, and foster loyalty and a sense of professionalism. Then there are k-mart/v&e/latham firms, which conduct cheap-ass maneuvers, concoct misleading policies to save a few bucks, throw hail mary's and push the costs on their people when things don't work out, and then act like victims.

v&e should just accept who they are. instead of wasting a gazillion dollars cultivating a reputation in the good times -- only to piss it away in the bad times by reneging 10 or 15 offers -- why not just save all that money in the first place?

127 - first of all, stop pretending to be a different poster that 115/119; your poor writing and attitude shine through.
Second, the reason your argument misses the mark is that it is filled with perjoratives (cheap ass, misleading, short-term), but I haven't seen anything they've done which isn't a hard business decision made in hard times. You, as a poster said above, sound infantile. Nobody is pretending a "hard stop" is normal policy - neither is shortening the summer; neither is deferring start dates; neither is laying off people. Neither is dissolving.
So please, continue your "list of shame", but don't expect a ton of sympathetic ears from rational, enthusiastic law students WHO JUST WANT A FUCKING JOB.

Also, why do you keep citing Cravath as a paradigm? They shortened their summers to 10 weeks in March (see Abovethelaw.com on 3/10). S&S shortened to 9 weeks. This is exactly what V&E did. Do you really think that Cravath would have allowed 2nd half splitters (if they allow them at all) to stay while the full time summers are sent home early?

127: you are obviously a disgruntled VE 2L. if you wanted to go to a firm like cravath/s&c/wachtell/mckinsey, then you should have gone to a better law school, got better grades, etc.

or at least you should have known what you were getting into when you accepted an offer from VE (hello, Enron?) and should not now be surprised that they are not "living up to their word."

115/119/127 = EPIC FAIL

127 - there is no getting through to you. Nobody is saying V&E is the victim. What everyone else is saying is that, under the current circumstances, you don't qualify as an actual "victim" either. I hope you get the perspective you are going to need going forward.

-121

127,

Could you tell us which V&E partner(s) screwed your fiancee and/or killed your dog? Sheesh.

128:

Since v&e is not doing anything different than what soooo many other firms are doing, why don't you list the firms that have done the following:

Enacted policies in APRIL that have caused numerous SAs to go from (a) having an oppty to work at the firm, to (b) NOT being able to work at the firm. That, by definition, is a "reneged offer."

But spin away...

129 , credited. These SAs should have known that once things went a bit south, they'd be thrown under the bus. Enron values baby!

127 (and your various other incarnations):
If you are gunning for a V&E offer that badly, why did you split in the first place? Why not just go back to V&E for the entire 2L summer? If I were on your position, I would have seen the writing on the wall all the back in August, and I would have said to myself, for 2L summer, go where you would most likely accept an offer, period. Obviously, it's nice to compare and contrast firm cultures, but that's a luxury very few people will have this summer

134 -- you're obviously not from TX. In TX, it's pretty normal to split firms.

I really don't think people like 127 have a damn thing to complain about. You have the best of both worlds- you are being considered for an offer at VE, and you have a chance to get an offer at your 2L firm. You're in a better position than just about anyone. So what gives?

135- so what if it is? Texas is not immune to this RECESSION. Splitting became a risky proposition a long time ago. I have very little sympathy.

136,

Exactly. 127, 115, 119 and these 10 SAs are in a great position! My theory is that they're BB trolls just trying to slam v&e and kick it when it's down.

(although, this of course assumes that the non-returning 2Ls will indeed be fairly and genuinely considered for a full time offer, and won't be discriminated against vis-a-vie the other 2Ls).

This story is not entirely accurate. V&E didn't, per se, tell former 1L summers who are splitting this year that they cannot come back anymore. The hard end date just made it so that some 2Ls who are splitting their summer do not have enough time to do their first stint at another firm, then come back to V&E in time for the hard end date of 7/17.

I'm still splitting my summer between another firm and V&E.

138-
I don't even think VE is particularly down. Unlike BB, they haven't conducted public layoffs. Leverage is miniscule, PPP was up, revenue didn't take a significant hit. I still say VE is relatively safe. Anyway, all that matters is the ultimate offer rate at the end of the summer. Time will tell.

140,

First, v&e is obviously "down" a little bit, else they wouldn't be nickle-and-diming and using stealth layoffs. 2008 is one thing. 2009 is another. Heller had a decent year in 2007.

Second, the true test of v&e will be whether it gies offers to those 2Ls unable to return b/c of the hard stop. Technically, v&e could pull a Enron and be all shady b/c it wouldn't show up in NALP. NALP only reports the number of SAs who got offers and the number of SAs who WORKED that summer. So the non-returning SAs would get lost in the data -- v&e could still report a 100% offer rate while screwing all the 10 SAs who couldn't return!

140 is right on. At its worst, VE is doing at least as well as BB. So for any potential summers trying to decide between the two firms, work quality differences are negligible and then it comes down to firm culture. And I think anyone who doesn't work at BB (and even some people at BB) can agree that the firm culture is infinitely more enjoyable than BB.

At least at my law school, every single person going to BB is miserably awkward and the people going to VE are much more social.

141 - if that is BB trolling, it is ineffective. No person hired as a 1L SA (and invited to come back) would write or reason like that. Revise, and have some pride.

V&E stopped short? That's my move!

- mr. Costanza

58: your comment makes NO sense because V&E loves Texas kids. You will be working with a lot of them so you may want to check that attitude before you show up for work. If you don't, you'll be the one getting no offered because the UT associates had equivalent work product without the elitist, condescending attitude. Hope you're not in my office; I'd probably be nice to you anyway though because that's how we do things.

FROM LAWSHUCKS.COM. Standby for all the v&e trollers to start spinning...

Rumors of stealth layoffs at Vinson & Elkins abound, but the firm tried to quash them. Supposedly, “The firm is going to cut at least $40 million in costs by reducing staff bonuses, no longer reimbursing out of town CLEs, making us pay for our own cell phones on our blackberries, waiting to upgrade computers and a long list of other cost-cutting measures.” That seems highly unlikely. According to the National Law Journal, 85% of budget goes to rent and personnel costs. Vinson & Elkins grossed $590.5 million last year ($250 million net). Assuming they somehow budget 100% of revenue, that leaves $130 million for non-personnel/non-property expense. So we’re supposed to believe they can cut more than 30% of that budget? How bloated are they? We’ve simply had too many independent sources claim that there have been extensive stealth layoffs at the firm, and nothing in the most-recent comments contradicts (or even addresses) that vile practice. At $250,000 saved per associate, layoffs are simply too efficient (even at a 30% net saving rate) a way to reduce expense. Cutting partners and senior counsel is even more effective.

Anybody who believes that a firm can cut enough of the "frills" to hit their magic (and unrealistically high) projections for PPP needs to seriously reevaluate how they arrived at that conclusion.

Any "no-layoff promise" is akin to a AAA mortgage backed security in terms of general trustworthiness. In other words, know what you're buying into before you sign on the dotted line.