The only LLMs worthwhile are tax LLMs from NYU, Georgetown, and Florida.

DO NOT GET AN LLM OTHERWISE, FOR ANY REASON.

second

LLM > JD

Other than the tax LLM, most other LLMs are useless in terms of enhancing job prospects. Useful if you are interested in meeting interesting law students from other countries in hope of furthering "international relations".

LLM > JD

Go to NYU. Great program and all the LLMs I met there were cool.

I would add that I've heard BU's Tax LLM plays well around Boston.

Loyola (L.A.) has a good Tax LLM program as well, especially if you intend to practice in the Los Angeles area.

The only LLMs worthwhile are tax LLMs from NYU, Georgetown, and Florida.

DO NOT GET AN LLM OTHERWISE, FOR ANY REASON.

I am an LLM at one of the schools mentioned. I enrolled after the disollution of my law firm. My grades put me in the top 10% here. My JD was from a T20 school with solid grades (top 33%, not top 10%). Not a single job offer despite a bunch of interviews. I've been told repeatedly it's the market, but that's starting to feel like a girl saying, "It's not you, it's me."

Is Georgetown University Law Center's LLM in Taxation accredited by the American Bar Association?

10 -

I have to disagree. For foreign attorneys, LLMs are a useful way to jump into the US market.

What about the St. John's Bankruptcy LLM, for those trying to rebrand themselves as bankruptcy attorneys?

I went to SMU and did not get an LLM.

Sad SMU

13, yes, but on ATL, the presumption is that you're an American JD student or graduate looking at an LLM.

LLM > JD

GULC's LLM is definitely second to the NYU LLM. The GULC program is filled with morons from the IRS and other TTT schools, which makes doing well in school pretty easy.

The professional development staff are worthless, however. One woman has this huge chip on her shoulder because she worked at an NY firm for years. She's probably pissed because she didn't make partner. The other woman is a little bit nicer, although entirely incompetent. Do not expect either to do anything remotely helpful as you search for another job.

For all the people asking about, "What about St. John's?" "What about SMU?"

Here's the answer.

The only LLMs worthwhile are tax LLMs from NYU, Georgetown, and Florida.

DO NOT GET AN LLM OTHERWISE, FOR ANY REASON.

I received my LLM from Georgetown in 1992 - best career decision I ever made. When I have looked for jobs in the past 15 years, no one ever looks at my JD - only my LLM. Without an LLM, tax jobs are not possible.

I received my LLM from Georgetown in 1992 - best career decision I ever made. When I have looked for jobs in the past 15 years, no one ever looks at my JD - only my LLM. Without an LLM, tax jobs are not possible.

I received my Tax LL.M. from Georgetown in 2000. No one has ever cared about my JD (Oregon) or my B.A. (Pennsylvania). I would never have been hired by a top law firm to practice tax if not for that LL.M. It is essential for tax. However, every other LL.M. is fake and everyone knows it.

Considering the IRS will be looking for revenue, a Tax LL.M. is a good way to go.

I'm a UCLA student, and seriously considering the transition to practice LLM. I'm actually glad they're doing something for us, and it sounds like a great way to get practical skills. Any thoughts?

northwestern has a good llm tax program

I myself faced this conondrum not long ago. I honestly could not see much of an advantage in going the LLM route. A full-time LLM program beginning this August/September would not be complete for another 13 months (16 months from the time I considered it). I understand the point about waiting out the market, but if the market turns around in the next year it would be questionable whether the LLM would be necessary to secure a job. If it doesn't, it probably won't help anyway, and then I'd be 45K further in debt (not to mention the opportunity costs of hustling for any income that could be earned in the interim). It seemed like an awful lot to pay, and an awfully long time to wait, for a pretty speculative benefit.

Not so much GULC vs. NYU, as it is GULC, NYU (maybe NU and Florida) vs. all other LLM programs on earth.

I think I would rather do an MBA at a top business school like Harvard, Stanford, Sloan (at MIT) or Warden (at Penn State).

for what it's worth, it is probably cheaper to live in DC than NY, if money is a concern.

27: As the present economic crisis shows, MBAs are over-rated.

WTF makes GULC, NYU (and maybe NU and Florida) so special? Don't most schools offer an LLM program? Why would an LLM from GULC be any better than an LLM from Harvard, Michigan, or Chicago?

GULC is distinctly third tier for LLMs along with UF. First and second tiers are reserved for NYU.

UF is good for local Florida tax practice. It is hard to see what the value of a GULC degree is, whether it be JD or LLM.

That said, even NYU LLMs are having a hard time finding jobs in this market. I know many alumni question the value of their investment in the degree. It is bad enough that you get rejected from Biglaw, but they're getting rejected from B4 accounting firms as well.

There is no safe haven in today's legal economy.

WORTHLESS DEGREES, DURING RECESSION, REMAIN WORTHLESS.

Do you mean the WHARTON school of business at Penn??

Yeah here's a new line to consider (credit to 27):

Value of an MBA after a JD? Career prospects inside and outside of lawfirms?

Say I have a few years experience in BigLaw but decide it sucks. How is that looked when applying for MBA programs? For getting jobs after?

-Completely hypothetical as of now.

Ya, adding another $40-50K to your already immense student loan of $150,000 plus is a smart move in today's economy.

Do you mean the WHARTON school of business at Penn??

Is this LLM school an American Bar Association accredited school?

27 = epic fail. Warden? Concentrate on getting the name right instead of the Penn State joke. And thanks for telling us all that Sloan is at MIT.....the 0.5% of ATL readers who didn't know that are grateful.

Why dont u just call up the career office in these schools and ask about their numbers this year?

If you don't have an LLM in Admiralty Law, you are a worthless lawyer.

Everyone knows what the good tax LLM programs are, and will laugh at you if you come to them with an LLM from another place (like Harvard). Just because a place has a name for one purpose doesn't mean that a degree from them in another field will be respected.

FYI -- I've worked in a good NY tax group, and at a TTT DC tax group (not sure there's any other kind in DC) and the TTT DC partners have LLM's while the smart, rich NY partners do not (and don't respect the degree). The NY partners got their training at top-5 law firms, while the TTT DC partners got their training in government or accounting firms.

So draw your own conclusions.

Is an LLM a good option as a deferred incoming biglaw associate?

38

::whoosh::

Ya, missed the in-joke.

Completely pwned, my friend.

Learn a foreign language.

What if I want a tax position but don't want to move East for a year? Can I really not do tax without an LLM? Any thoughts on NYU's executive online program?

-BBA in Accounting, rising 3L at top 25 school

42 - yes, go for it.

I want a MBA from Warden too. That school sound BALLER

NYU for the win. they have some online classes now for the tax program. What's better than that?

I went to LLM for undergrad, and then worked at the post office until I was picked up by a minor league baseball team.

Where should I go for good Chinese food in Kansas City?

Everyone knows what the good tax LLM programs are, and will laugh at you if you come to them with an LLM from another place (like Harvard). Just because a place has a name for one purpose doesn't mean that a degree from them in another field will be respected.

FYI -- I've worked in a good NY tax group, and at a TTT DC tax group (not sure there's any other kind in DC) and the TTT DC partners have LLM's while the smart, rich NY partners do not (and don't respect the degree). The NY partners got their training at top-5 law firms, while the TTT DC partners got their training in government or accounting firms.

So draw your own conclusions.

Dear Number 19...(and 10)....(and 2)....

St. Johns bankruptcy LLM is very highly regarded in the bankrutpcy bar. Please....don't be ignorant.

So no one sees any value for an American to get a non-tax LLM? Just no value-added, huh?

what not just try out for Real World on MTV?

13: I disagree. Foreign LLMs are a dime a dozen and most law firms won't consider foreign LLMs. one year in US just to sit for NYC bar exam? big deal. Unless you've worked at a law firm in a common law country and have a license there (such as UK) nobody cares if you have an LLM.

ahh ... 33/36, 38, that was too easy. thanks.

# 20 - that's ridiculous. A shown interest in tax throughout your resume (accounting undergraduate goes a long way, or taking plenty of tax courses at law school) will get you there.

But yeah, if you only took Federal in law school, you're probably going to have to get an LL.M. Especially nowadays.

41/50 -- Conclusion: you don't have a job, or you have no work, because you are posting multiple times in the middle of the day on ATL.

who care, how about some real news?!

http://www.wwtdd.com/2009/05/victoria-silvstedt-is-a-pro-at-this/1vs35451/

45: Many, if not most, people do tax without an LLM. A tax LLM is not necessary, sometimes helps and often does not help. Take tax classes your third year and interview with the tax departments of the firms.

37 -

No, absolutely not. Not here, not anywhere. Now please stop asking this inane question and go back to studying for your exams.

If you get an LLM, you will automatically get into heaven. That's why I got mine.

56,

It is obvious that 41/50 works at SkaddenDC.

56: 41/50 here -- don't blame me for the TTT double-posting software on ATL. You obviously don't have much experience with it. STFU and deal.

I AM WRITING FROM AN NYU LAW IP, AS ATL CAN CONFIRM. I AM PREPARING FOR EXAMS AND CAN'T WRITE A COMPLETE POST, BUT PLEASE LISTEN.

DO NOT.

DO NOT.

I REPEAT. DO NOT GET AN NYU TAX LLM FOR JOBS.

THIS YEAR, THERE WERE ABOUT A DOZEN EMPLOYERS AT TAX LLM OCI. THAT MEANS ABOUT TWO INTERVIEWS PER STUDENT. AND MOST OF THE EMPLOYERS WEREN'T HIRING.

THE EMPLOYMENT PROSPECTS WITH AN NYU LLM ARE NO BETTER THAN THEY ARE WITH A TIER 2 JD.

DO NOT BELIEVE THE "33% OF NYU LLMS GET BIGLAW" NONSENSE. IT'S A DAMN LIE. IT'S MAYBE 10%, AND THIS YEAR IT'S CLOSER TO ZERO.

ALL MY FELLOW NYU TAX LLMS WOULD BACK ME UP ON THIS.

SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUT I NEEDED TO BE QUICK AND ATTENTION GRABBING.

THE ONLY THING GOOD ABOUT AN NYU TAX LLM IS THAT YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT BY THE BEST PRACTITIONERS IN THE WORLD, AND YOU LEARN CUTTING EDGE TAX LAW, BUT THAT WON'T GET YOU A JOB.

56,

It is obvious that 41/50 works at SkaddenDC.

53, true, but you are much more "hireable" (not a word, i know) if you've done an LLM in the city where you want to work. I am speaking mostly about NYU LLMs for people wanting to work in NY, and GULC LLMs for people wanting to work in DC. it helps a partner to know that you understand the US system. of course, a JD is better

If you get an LLM, you will automatically not be gay.

ONE LAST THING - NYU LETS ALMOST 500 LLMS IN EVERY YEAR (TAX, TRADE, INTERNATIONAL, GENERAL ALL COMBINED).

MOST SCHOOLS LET IN 30, IF THAT.

THAT SHOULD TELL YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT NYU'S LLM. AND NO, NYU LLMS OBVIOUSLY DO NOT GET TO PARTICIPATE IN THE JD OCI.

I once rejected an honorary LLM from Yale, simply because I already have too many.

I wish I were at Skadden DC. Think lower.

- 41/50

45: the accounting degree will go a long way in your tax job search. if you decide on an llm, a local tax program is a great choice as long as you realize it won't take you outside of that area. for example, the philly market loves temple and villanova tax llms, but those degrees don't travel well.

Whenever I see an LLM on a resume, it usually means the candidate is trying to overcompensate for less than stellar credentials. For example, John Doe, B.A., Fordham Univ., J.D., Cardozo Law, LLM, NYU. To me, John Doe is still a Cardozo law graduate. Unless it is an LLM in Tax, LLMs are worthless degrees (except for foreigners) and candidates with LLMs generally suffer from an inferiority complex. If you want to tell the world you have an impressive LLM from NYU, fine, but in the legal world I see you as someone who was suckered into paying $45,000.00 for a worthless piece of paper. Final anaylsis: LLM candidates (unless you are a foreigner or have an LLM in tax) are useless at my peer firm.

Slow news day at ATL today

They are ranked in this order by US News: NYU, Florida, Georgetown.

Georgetown and NYU have a shared job fair in the spring, but it is my understanding that the employers were considerably more interested in NYU LL.M. students.

And NYU LL.M. students who had degrees from third tier law schools had a great deal of difficulty getting entry level jobs (even with good LL.M. grades) in 2007.

56,

It is obvious that 41/50 works at SkaddenDC.

As someone who is going through Northwestern's Tax LLM, it is EXTREMELY difficult but worth it in the end

Northwestern does a solid job with trying to help you find a job and if you ALREADY have done work, I can only imagine it will help you even more.

If you are not happy, do it but remember....you are going back to school and the money paid to NU or Georgetown or NYU is killer

What about a grad of a T14 school, with good grades, laid off as a 1st year?

I'm sitting here, admitted to NYU, and wondering if I should go. I like tax, I would probably enjoy practicing tax. Going to NYU keeps me from sitting on my ass for the next year because the economy sucks and no one is hiring laid off first years. It also costs a fair bit, which I don't want to pay unless it's going to help me get a job next year.

I've heard hiring this year has been terrible, which doesn't surprise me. But what happens in a typical year?

After working at a mid-size firm for a little while, I got a non-tax LL.M at a T10 school and it was a great time and was well worth it. I'm not sure it helps with firm job prospects that much (although I am now in Biglaw and wouldn't be without it), but it is definitely not a waste of time if you do it at a school that allows you a lot of flexibility when choosing classes and gives you lots of time to write and publish. Many LL.M programs will allow you to take non-law graduate classes. Really it's all about writing and publishing while you are there. If you publish a lot, then you will be better off no matter what you want to do. The debt sucks, but I would do it again if I could.

I like the asian LLMs here at NYU because I know they are subsidizing my scholarship and the balling new building I take naps in. Also, quiet down, ching chong, I'm trying to sleep.

BU's LLM tax program is well respected also, at least in NY and Boston

Partner Emeritus, I have a crush on you!!! You are so big and strong on the internet. I wonder if you're supplanting your own real world inferiority complex by acting like a superior elitist on the internet. Just a thought, maybe you should look into it. I can't think of a partner in the world who sits on above the law all day and comments as much as you do, consistently hyping your elitist view, reinforcing to yourself, assuring everyone else on the internet, that you are a top lawyer at a peer firm. Go back to studying for your Property Exam loser.

One of the most in-demand contract lawyering jobs calls for special language or dual nationality -- assets that are helpful with cross-border litigation, transactions and investigations, Bufithis said.

www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1202430434838

Blumpkin.

My understanding is that the NYU tax LLM is still the gold standard, but that even that is diminishing in value. I'd guess that probably has something to do with the fact that they're basically running it like a continuing education program, allowing people to enroll part-time and online.

It also goes without saying that if you are thinking about transitioning into academics or the bench, an LLM in any subject will help you, assuming it's a good program.

I doubt, however, that an LLM solely to "wait out" the economy will be worth anything to people who are now coming out of law school. I think the point of the degree is to come back to education after a few years of practice.

LLMs are TTT. It's all about the JSD/SJD

So true 78. So true. Although I feel bad for all the Asian NYU LLMs who think it'll get them biglaw (it won't.)

ITE, even a Tax LLM is not a second ticket into BigLaw (or even any employment).

Go to TaxTalent (http://www.taxtalent.com) and view the Career Forum to get the perspective of students in those programs.

TIP (basically OCI for Tax LLM folks - limited to just NYU and Georgetown) was dismal this year. Anecdotally, almost no one at either Georgetown or NYU has been hired into BigLaw. The vast majority of the tax class at Georgetown (that didn't already have a job waiting for them) is going to graduate unemployed and even at NYU, people are struggling even to get accounting firm gigs (pays $70-90k and provides zero useful experience if you want to go back to a law firm).

Seems like a great way to waste $40,000, unless you really place a high value on false hope (or just want to take some more law school classes).

How competitive is Harvard's LLM admissions for US-born JDs who are interested in publishing and teaching?

41/50/62 -- if I didn't have much experience with this crappy posting system, I probably would have double-posted like you did.

I also notice you chose to argue about double posting and not the fact that you have no job and/or too much free time. Nice.

- 56

*punches a bigLAYOFFS partner for putting me through this shit*

For IP, rather than getting an LLM, it is a better idea to get a masters in EE or a phd in Biotechnology. When companies pick firms, they are impressed by advanced Engineering degrees (not LLMS). So, in turn, a firm would be interested in hiring you.

Also, you can get a masters in EE from a state school like George Mason or Maryland which only charges a few thousand per semester for instate. Don't go to an expensive school like GWU.

Also, it won't matter which school you got your masters degree from, the hiring partner will just be impressed that you got a masters, because he probably only has a Bachelors in EE.

Also, some Masters programs include easy tracks such as Semiconductor or Computer Networking that can be completed by any idiot with a Science or Engineering degree. You could even work part-time at a firm while pursuing your masters.

I personally got my Masters in EE immediately after law school, and it worked out perfectly.

For other areas of law, I am really not qualified to comment. But, wouldn't it be better to get a job at the IRS rather than paying obscene tuition fees for an LLM in tax law?

This comment is addressed to post no. 80.

Rather than call you an insolent cur, I will take the gentle approach with you. Go open a dictionary and look up emeritus. If I don't bill another hour in my life, I would have billed more hours in my career than you have been awake. I am on these boards as a public service to young attorneys, law students and errant youths thinking about a career in the law. Some of you cretins are ungrateful to have an elder trailblazing pioneer of the legal profession give you honest advice. Others, however, have seen the light. I sit on a perch as a result of my outstanding career. I have nothing left to prove. I retired in 2002 and was brought back to the firm by demand. I counsel young partners on matters involving my legacy clients. Now go back to your pathetic existence.

Unless you are talking about one of the big tax LLMs, don't waste your time and money. B-school's a better idea if you really want more career options. However, it usually won't help you move up the law firm ladder (in fact you'll probably be suspect if you tell a law firm that you want one).

I was considering an LLM in being first, but then realized that with all of my experience being first, the LLM really wouldn't boost my job prospects any higher.

- blah blah

To 71,
I am that person you are describing, LLM student at NYU now, non Tax. I can confirm that hardly any Tax LLMs are finding work. U.S. non Tax LLMs (saps like me), forget about it - we're not even qualified for fast food jobs anymore!

Also, because of the fabled economy, not even the foreign LLMers are finding work this year.

JD's who pursue a non-tax LL.M. need to do so for reasons not related to getting a job at Big Law. If you have an academic interest, fine. If you think it's a stepping stone to $160K per year, you are dead dead wrong. They are valuable, just not financially so! think about that.

Northwestern's tax LL.M. is very well regarded and of very high quality. I would note that Gtown has an open admission policy for its tax LLM program. There are some great adjuncts and an abundance of course options, but, if you don't go to NYU, I would say go to NU or Florida.

To 71,
I am that person you are describing, LLM student at NYU now, non Tax. I can confirm that hardly any Tax LLMs are finding work. U.S. non Tax LLMs (saps like me), forget about it - we're not even qualified for fast food jobs anymore!

Also, because of the fabled economy, not even the foreign LLMers are finding work this year.

JD's who pursue a non-tax LL.M. need to do so for reasons not related to getting a job at Big Law. If you have an academic interest, fine. If you think it's a stepping stone to $160K per year, you are dead dead wrong. They are valuable, just not financially so! think about that.

partner emeritus rules!

Thoughts on St. John's Bankruptcy LLM:

SJU is definitely tier 2 for JD, but as the only Bankruptcy LLM program, it does place people at a lot of top firms (kirkland, skadden, weil, etc) as well as in prestigious SDNY/Delware clerkships because judges think the LLMs will hit the ground running faster as clerks. And from the SDNY and Delaware, you can definitely go anywhere as a bankruptcy guy.

Now if you're saddled with lots of law school debt, another year of school may not be the smartest move financially. But I think it is a solid way to rebrand yourself, and particularly so if followed by a clerkship (again finances may be a concern)

Emeritus-Please give me your real name if you are so willing to back up your reputation. Owned. Until you prove to me who you are, whatever you say about yourself is worthless. Given your significant experience in the legal profession, you should know this. Also, if you are a retired partner from a peer firm, what the hell are you doing sitting on the internet all day criticizing the current legal profession. Get on a golf course, do something interesting with your money. You are the biggest phony on the planet, and even if you are telling the truth, you are obviously unhappy and insecure with your career, telling everyone about your "trailblaizing career" with absolutely nothing to back it up. You're owned loser. Hahahaha. Your life and internet life are both pathetic. Get laid you faggot.

89,

Yes, if you're interested in tax and don't want to pay money to get an LLM, get a job with Chief Counsel at the IRS. This used to be a good meal ticket to Biglaw after say, four years, but that has changed. With this economy, the IRS's Chief Counsel program is getting inundated with resumes. I have heard about 400 plus resumes for each advertised position. As a result, they're getting very selective. Only Ivy League, summa or magna, a demonstrated interest in tax, meet the bar and an LLM helps.

A lot of GULC grads with LLMs used to be able to get in the IRS's Chief Counsel fairly easily but now they're finding to their shock and dismay that their GULC degree doesn't do squat. This also applies to Tax Court clerks with GULC LLMs. Stay far away from GULC.

Emeritus-Please give me your real name if you are so willing to back up your reputation. Owned. Until you prove to me who you are, whatever you say about yourself is worthless. Given your significant experience in the legal profession, you should know this. Also, if you are a retired partner from a peer firm, what the hell are you doing sitting on the internet all day criticizing the current legal profession. Get on a golf course, do something interesting with your money. You are the biggest phony on the planet, and even if you are telling the truth, you are obviously unhappy and insecure with your career, telling everyone about your "trailblaizing career" with absolutely nothing to back it up. You're owned loser. Hahahaha. Your life and internet life are both pathetic. Get laid you faggot.

96--wait, it has value but it's not financial? You're blowing my mind baby. You're blowing my mind.

Thoughts on St. John's Bankruptcy LLM:

SJU is definitely tier 2 for JD, but as the only Bankruptcy LLM program, it does place people at a lot of top firms (kirkland, skadden, weil, etc) as well as in prestigious SDNY/Delware clerkships because judges think the LLMs will hit the ground running faster as clerks. And from the SDNY and Delaware, you can definitely go anywhere as a bankruptcy guy.

Now if you're saddled with lots of law school debt, another year of school may not be the smartest move financially. But I think it is a solid way to rebrand yourself, and particularly so if followed by a clerkship (again finances may be a concern)

I should restate - my understanding is that it is significantly harder to get into the NU and Florida tax LLM programs, and much harder to get into NYU's, than it is to get into Gtown's tax LLM. I am speaking to full-time programs.

89,

Yes, if you're interested in tax and don't want to pay money to get an LLM, get a job with Chief Counsel at the IRS. This used to be a good meal ticket to Biglaw after say, four years, but that has changed. With this economy, the IRS's Chief Counsel program is getting inundated with resumes. I have heard about 400 plus resumes for each advertised position. As a result, they're getting very selective. Only Ivy League, summa or magna, a demonstrated interest in tax, meet the bar and an LLM helps.

A lot of GULC grads with LLMs used to be able to get in the IRS's Chief Counsel fairly easily but now they're finding to their shock and dismay that their GULC degree doesn't do squat. This also applies to Tax Court clerks with GULC LLMs. Stay far away from GULC.

Biglaw job prospects from NYU LLM are similar to those from bottom half of tier 1/ tier 2 schools. Top 10-15% may get offers, the rest will likely not. Smaller market tax jobs really go for the NYU Tax LLM, so if you want a job in Arkansas, go for it. In this market, where most biglaw shops have oversubscribed first and second year classes, I imagine they are more likely to try to push some corporate associate into tax before hiring someone fresh out of an LLM program.

You should check our Michigan Tax LLM program. In comparison to GU and NYU it is very small (probably 6-8 people a year) but the level of teaching is good, and the chances of finding a decent biglaw job are much higher than in NYU with its huge classes.

LLM in Trial Advocacy from Temple...good, bad, indifferent?

Anybody pushing JDs and LLMs on this site either don't know what time it is or they are just pushing more snake oil.

I for one am curious why people can bat around the "f****t" word and ATL never does anything about it while similar hate speech gets deleted immediately.

Tax genius and author of the leading treatise.

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/facinfo/tab_faculty.cfm?Status=Faculty&ID=254

This comment is addressed to post no. 100.

My real name is inconsequential to what I am trying to accomplish here. I am also discreet and value anonymity, especially when my peer firm is involved.

You can believe whatever you want. If it comforts your insecure ego to believe I am a sniveling law student studying for an exam for a worthless law degree, so be it. Do yourself a favor and emerge from the commode in which you reside. It is raining out and that is why I am here and not teeing off at the Pine Valley Golf Club on this day.

LLM in Trial Advocacy from Temple...good, bad, indifferent?

:-( Sad SMU

How does Tulane's LLM in admiralty law stack up?

I have nothing to do until early 2010 when I started in Biglaw. My plan: take the Patent Bar and get my French back up to conversational business level and work on my Spanish.

@90 - agreed, get a masters in something useful. I went MSEE before law school - best decision I ever made (plus I got a scholarship to do it). Obviously you need the right undergrad requirements, but not necessarily EE... I was physics.

I have no thoughts on LLMs other than it sounds to me like a money pit. Unless of course you're thinking of starting your own law school offering LLMs... because that sounds like a win.

Just an FYI for those laid off associates worried about the money, all of the money paid for an LL.M. would most likely* be tax deductible. It is still a lot of money, but this will soften the blow a little bit when you get a big refund. Also depending on the state you can use LL.M. classes for CLE credits.

* IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: United States Treasury Regulations provide that a taxpayer may rely only on formal written advice meeting specific requirements to avoid federal tax penalties. Any tax advice in the text of this message, or in any attachment, does not meet those requirements and, accordingly, is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any recipient to avoid any penalties that may be imposed upon such recipient by the Internal Revenue Service.

What about a LLM from Georgetown's Securities and Financial Regulation? Is that worthwhile?

St. John's Bankruptcy LL.M. is top-notch. I graduated a few years back and this LL.M degree, alone, landed me at a top 40 law firm. I graduated from a top 30 law school, but decided to pursue a further degree, in case I wanted to teach (which an LL.M. will do).

Within the bankruptcy world, St. John's Bankruptcy LL.M. is EXTREMELY WELL REGARDED.

53, 78, 85 = racist arrogant idiots who feel threatened by foreign laywers. Get a life !

How does a tax court clerkship stack against a tax LLM (from NYU, say)

53, 78, 85 = racist arrogant idiots who feel threatened by foreign lawyers. Get a life !

53, 78, 85 = racist arrogant idiots who feel threatened by foreign lawyers. Get a life !

Latham Truth #2:

Latham hired bunch of LLMs and LLM to JD people because they could not find acceptable JD students and also because they are from Haavard.

Please share your Latham truths or truths about other firms.

117-

Just my 90 cents, but you really ought to watch what you say on here. I'm no expert, but I heard about some law batted around the courts that says if you offer a promise, you can get sued. If someone goes to an LLM program because of your eminently reasonable advice, and then they don't get the job, you could have a real contracts dispute. JD students sue schools all the time and win by citing this Second Statement rule of Contracts.

116 - Where is the EU Patent office? There is your answer.

St. John's law school might not be a "great" law school but the LL.M. program is prestigious.

Only reason more people don't know about it is because until recently, bankruptcy work was not as well profiled. The program has leading partners, judges, and academics teaching the courses. They even fly in professors from around the world.

117, it's not deductible if you have not worked full-time in a law firm before you start the LLM. And working full-time does not include being a summer associate. There have been several cases about this. Just fyi.

BA > LLM

St. John's law school might not be a "great" law school but the LL.M. program is prestigious.

Only reason more people don't know about it is because until recently, bankruptcy work was not as well profiled. The program has leading partners, judges, and academics teaching the courses. They even fly in professors from around the world.

St. John's Bankruptcy LLM is considered a sure bet if you want to clerk for a bankruptcy court. Most graduates end up being hired as clerks in the SDNY, Delaware.

I've heard the GWU LLM in government procurement is very well respected within the federal government (if you're interested in getting out of BigLaw).

Not sure how BigLaw views that degree.

Why do foreigners in LLM programs always smell like week old ham that has been sitting in the sun?

Curious @ Columbia

I applied to the St. John's BK LL.M. program and got rejected.

Top 50 law school, top 33% in my class, and former accountant and I didn't get in - it must be a competitive process.

I got into BU's Tax LLM though: should I go for this?

St. John's law school might not be a "great" law school but the LL.M. program is prestigious.

Only reason more people don't know about it is because until recently, bankruptcy work was not as well profiled. The program has leading partners, judges, and academics teaching the courses. They even fly in professors from around the world.

126-

Munich. And the JPO is in Tokyo. I don't follow. You think I should learn German?

~116

I've heard so-so things about NYU LL.M. NYU name looks good, but not sure about the job prospects.

Might make more sense to get a Bankruptcy LL.M. St. John's might not have a top tier law school but my friends at law firms tell me firms are busy picking up Bankruptcy LL.M. grads from SJU. In this market, I can't disagree with the logic.

78: you sound like an asshat. i thought racism was going to be moderated?

I applied to the St. John's BK LL.M. program and got rejected.

Top 50 law school, top 33% in my class, and former accountant and I didn't get in - it must be a competitive process.

I got into BU's Tax LLM though: should I go for this?

Given the continued downward trend in the Dow, reflecting the continuing contraction of the economy and the resulting lessening of the demand for legal services, chasing an LLM degree is a fool's errand.

56/88: I already described where I worked. I don't see why you bother attacking it. You seem to be the one with too much time and nothing to say. Pot, kettle, black?

Fact is, tax LLM is for people trying to compensate for some other deficiency. From what I see, it doesn't seem to work all that well.

Decent tax work (and practitioners) is limited to NY and London, which are both in the crapper right now anyway. If you don't want to work in those cities, there's no point to a tax LLM.

That said, an LLM may be an acceptable way to wait out the economy, but the timings is a gamble, and the degree itself doesn't really add anything to your resume other than an explanation for why you've been out of work.

- 41/50

3 of my classmates... 1 went to gtown for sec ll.m., another to columbia corporate ll.m., and last one to st johns bnkrutpcy llm.

gtown llm, still looking for job..got a sweet internship at the SEC though. columbia..picked up by a small 35 man firm..st john's guy got picked up by a am law 100 firm..make what you will of it

meanwhile, im still unemployed and too much in debt to go for llm

SERIOUS COMMENT

I graduated from St Johns LLM 4 years ago. Had a hard time deciding if I should do it or not. Prior to entering the LLM, I had an offer at a regional firm (100 man shop). Turned it down, took a risk.

Was it worth it? I learned a lot. I ended up clerking in Chicago and got a job at a good firm there. I understand its a tough choice but $40000 for a good degree in the bankruptcy world can't hurt. Opp cost is there, I say. But, I wouldn't go as far and say it's a slam dunk you get a top firm job..but it happens more often than you think..

3 of my classmates... 1 went to gtown for sec ll.m., another to columbia corporate ll.m., and last one to st johns bnkrutpcy llm.

gtown llm, still looking for job..got a sweet internship at the SEC though. columbia..picked up by a small 35 man firm..st john's guy got picked up by a am law 100 firm..make what you will of it

meanwhile, im still unemployed and too much in debt to go for llm

Would it make more sense to get an ma in accounting? You could go cheap and if you couldn't find a job as a lawyer, you could turn to accounting for a while.

121,

A lot of Tax Court clerks have an NYU LLM. A smaller number have GULC LLMs (or are students there) and there are a few Florida LLMs. Some Judges hire JDs without LLMs. In a typical economy most find Biglaw jobs if they want them, but in this economy everyone is having problems, but the IRS will always hire a tax court clerk.

126-

Munich. And the JPO is in Tokyo. I don't follow. You think I should learn German?

~116

St. John's LLM: not well-regarded
NU LLM: not well-regarded

STOP THE TROLLING.

Would it make more sense to get an ma in accounting? You could go cheap and if you couldn't find a job as a lawyer, you could turn to accounting for a while.

80 & 100

You really don't get it? I mean, come on.

ignorant reading here...

bad economy + more bankruptcy filings than ever + chrsyler/GM filings = a lot of bankruptcy work

if you got the dough..duznt it make sense to go for a bankruptcy degree over tax? just sayinggggg

143 -
This really isn't the place for serious comments. Try xoxoxo.com

NYU LLM: Best TAX llm
georgetown, FU, BU: 2nd place to NYU Tax LLM

St Johns Bankruptcy LLM: Best Bankruptcy LLM
UCLA and Loyola: has some bankruptcy related llms but 2nd tier

Georgetown: BEST Sec Reg LLM

these are rankings, do your own homework on whether to go or not. ELIE, NEW TOPIC PLEASE!!

151,

It isn't all about the now but the future... eventually the economy won't suck so much regardless of how much Obama tinkers with it that demand for bankruptcy attorneys will go down...

However, since Obama is also about to rework the tax code that means there will be more demand for tax attorneys trying to avoid paying taxes

148,

Yes... the guy is saying learn german... how many patents come out of France or Spain

this thread should have ended at comment 25.

*****Can someone please comment on how well respected the Employee Benefits Certificate from GULC Tax LLM program is for those wishing to practice in employee benefits?****

any comments on environmental and natural resources law LLM?

107 - Michigan's LLM progam may be good, but it's not open to US-educated JDs. Just FYI.

GULC is much harder to get into than NU's Tax LLM program. There is a lot of trolling for NU.

NU is second rate, even third rate compared to GULC. Everyone knows it is the big 3, UF, GULC, and NYU.

I have an LL.M in Int'l Law. From personal experience, I would say no LL.M is worth pursuing unless a) it's in tax or b) your employer is paying for it.

Employers tend to be more confused by an LL.M on your resume than interested and it can make finding a job a real challenge. It's probably better to work as a contractor than to get an LL.M.

107 - Michigan's LLM progam may be good, but it's not open to US-educated JDs. Just FYI.

Hey guys,

Great idea all trying to pile into a practice area (bankruptcy) that everyone else already thinks is the hot field and is trying to get into. By the time you graduate in mid-2010 or 2011, it's not like the field will be oversaturated with lawyers (hint: it already is oversaturated).
Did you guys also jump on the fast-moving bandwagon of real estate work in 2005 and securitization work in 2006?

Partner Emeritus,
You talk a big game, but we intend to hold you to your past promises. To that end, you DID NOT show up at the Lipstick Building (i.e. Latham's office bldg) on May 1 with (1) a camera crew to film protesters; and (2) your supposedly "good friend" Don Moffat (whose image you've misappropriated). Isn't that right?

136 - US Law firms are hired by overseas law firms to follow patent disputes in the US and vice versa. Your potential clients could speak several languages but before the EU, Germany was the important patent office of Europe. Having a gift for learning languages would make it cheaper to pick up another one for the resume. I know that a University in Munich offers an LLM in IP instructed in English, if you think your deferral will be permanent and you see no other alternative.

A tax LLM is not a good way to get a job at a law firm. Most tax LLMs are recruited by accounting firms, which generally do a very poor job of training you. If you are at the top of your group at an accounting firm for 5 to 8 years, you might be able to transfer to a law firm's tax department as a 2nd or 3rd associate.

A tax LLM is not a good way to get a job at a law firm. Most tax LLMs are recruited by accounting firms, which generally do a very poor job of training you. If you are at the top of your group at an accounting firm for 5 to 8 years, you might be able to transfer to a law firm's tax department as a 2nd or 3rd year associate.

126-
The European Patent Office requires that the examiners speak three European languages as well as have an advanced degree.

116-
Why not learn a more useful language such as Chinese in your subsidized free time? The grammar structure is similar to English, so it is not as challenging as people think. After 6 months of study, you could spend 3 months of adventure in Shanghai.

89

162 - you're partially correct and I agree.

but there's not a lot of bankruptcy lawyers out there compared to the excess fat we saw in RE or corporate work. Plus, that's the great thing about bnkrptcy, it exists in a good or bad year. Of course, when teh eeconomy is booming you wont see all these big companies filing, but plenty of restructuring work always.

also, bankruptcy attorneys often are asked to do corporate work if theres not enough bk work.

Awesome how many comments for this article. Great flame bait, Kash! At least Elie is teaching you something.

165 - I know of many people who worked at an accounting firm for 1-3 years, got their tax LLM (from NYU/GULC/FL) and now work at biglaw. In fact, the partner I work with took a similiar route.

126-
The European Patent Office requires that the examiners speak three European languages as well as have an advanced degree.

116-
Why not learn a more useful language such as Chinese in your subsidized free time? The grammar structure is similar to English, so it is not as challenging as people think. After 6 months of study, you could spend 3 months of adventure in Shanghai.

89

167 - chinese grammar is similar to english? that's the most idiotic thing i've heard today.

Get a clerkship at the U.S. Tax Court. LLMs are a dime a dozen. I had multiple BigLaw offers following my clerkship.

I have an LLM in human rights from a foreign university, and a JD from a top-5 US law school. To my surprise, the LLM 1) appealed to the judge I clerked for, and 2) helped demonstrate the obligatory committment to good causes to move out of biglaw and into public interest. Wouldn't have gotten me those jobs on its own, but it sparked enough interest for employers to keep reading my resume. Don't think my firm cared about it much one way or another.

I have an LLM (not in taxation). An LLM can be a good idea if and only if you work in a field where an LLM will aid you in getting promoted or is required for you to advance, or if you want to work in a field where a majority of jobs require an LLM. You know you are in such a field if you frequently see open positions listed that state "LLM required" or if every single person who's gotten a promotion first got an LLM.

The only other reason I can think of to get an LLM is if you love academia and want to get a JSD, but you'd be better off pursuing a fully-funded PhD and not shelling out $50K for an LLM before you can even apply for the JSD program.

Otherwise, don't do it.

174 - which foreign university?

Is it still way easier to get a BigLaw job in NY than it is in DC?

If you are just starting out (i.e. you haven't practiced for more than two years), be very cautious about overspecializing this quickly. The useful LLMs (tax, and, from the sound of it, BK at SJU) are desireable because they teach highly specialized subject matter at an advanced level. Tax and BK have their own language. And learning it is fine. However, almost without exception, lawyers do not transition out of these specialty areas later on. So you better be damn sure you really want to do that type of work before committing to an LLM investment.

In this economy, it is better to more versatile and ready to try anything than it is to be a specialist. If you are already working, try developing skills in other areas. The reason even graduates from great LLM programs are having a tough time finding work (excluding BK) is that there are great laterals all over the street with similar credentials AND experience. Also, unless you get into a firm with a flagship practice in your specialty area (like tax), the specialists are usually the first to go when cuts are made because their hours generally tend to be lower. Again, this doesn't apply to BK, because there is just so much of that work around right now. But in a few years? Well . . .

#91, I adore you. While I skim over many of the snotty-nosed remarks made by the barely-men, I always carefully read yours and I learn a lot. Thank you for your service, you are a revered and necessary speed-bump on this roller-coast life we're all now leading, where staying upright and uncrossing our eyes is in itself an accomplishment, not to mention going forward into life.
Sincerely, A True Fan

going to apply to St Johns bankruptcy program.

why? because i dont have much to lose. already in debt, tack it on baby. better than workign for $50K..at least this way i have more of a chance to make $160K

it's a good program (regardless of what you naysayers say) and i really want to learn bankruptcy work and clerk...they have good placement and i really hope i get in

tax is overrated..do you really want to tell a hot chick..yeah "im a tax lawyer"...come on!

I am offended when the letters G, U, L, and C, are combined into the acronym GULC. I find GULC to be very ugly and offensive.

Offensively yours,

UVA2L

78 here. I apologize to all asians except asian NYU LLMs, who made a bad life choice and tend to talk in study areas.

obviously job prospects were not good coming out of nyu tax llm program this, although i did find one- job prospects are not good anywhere. A tax llm is only good if you want to practice tax and you get out of the program what you put into it. Law firms do respect tax llms if they've done well; but like any other practice area, they won't look outside for entry level hires unless they can't fill from a summer class. And yes, a tax LLM will be far, far ahead of a J.D. in substantive knowledge

#91, I adore you. While I skim over many of the snotty-nosed remarks made by the barely-men, I always carefully read yours and I learn a lot. Thank you for your service, you are a revered and necessary speed-bump on this roller-coast life we're all now leading, where staying upright and uncrossing our eyes is in itself an accomplishment, not to mention going forward into life.
Sincerely, A True Fan

#91, I adore you. While I skim over many of the snotty-nosed remarks made by the barely-men, I always carefully read yours and I learn a lot. Thank you for your service, you are a revered and necessary speed-bump on this roller-coast life we're all now leading, where staying upright and uncrossing our eyes is in itself an accomplishment, not to mention going forward into life.
Sincerely, A True Fan

Saint Johns has a good/well respected bankruptcy program.

The people who say otherwise don't know much about bankruptcy. everyone tends to think of only NYU for an LLM but they dont offer bankruptcy LLM.

I'm at a big firm who does litigation work but there are several Saint Johns LLM graduates in the bankruptcy department. That's how I know about the program.

180, with an attitude like that you'll go far in life. Do you tell the hot chicks about your new haircut?

I am currently a Tax LL.M. student at NYU (procrastinating instead of prepping for finals). I agree with pretty much everything posted so far. For someone who's always wanted to do Tax Law, NYU has been an amazing experience for me--great courses, amazing professors/practitioners, and good fellow students. Knowing what I know now, I would still do the program--I just would have hedged my bets against Big Law not hiring (and maybe looked to Tax Court or Big 4 in the Fall).

I have enjoyed everything about the program, except for the job hunt. I went to a Tier-2 JD school, and few have done better than me here at NYU. I've had a dozen interviews with Big Law. All but one of these firms was interviewing but not hiring. A previous poster said that maybe top 10% got Big Law... I would put it closer to 1%. There were like 115 full-time Tax LL.M.'s, and I know 1 who got a Big Law position. Basically, the only people hiring right now are the IRS, which is a position that many of us could've gotten without NYU...

For those trying to decide now whether to do NYU's Tax LL.M., I will say this. It is a great program--everything I wanted. For those who enjoy tax and enjoy being challenged, this program will do that. For those coming solely for the job prospects, you'll want to consider whether you feel the market will be any different one year from now...since the Big Law prospects this year were slim to nil. In the end, it comes down to your other prospects. If you have Big Law deferral, then NYU will provide you with cutting edge tax coursework (at a price, of course). For those with no other job prospects, NYU will provide you with a formal hiring process...but it would be up to you to make the most of it. This is a difficult decision, and I will all of you the best of luck.

This comment is addressed to any poster who takes the time to call out Partner Emeritus. PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Thank you.

#91, I adore you. While I skim over many of the snotty-nosed remarks made by the barely-men, I always carefully read yours and I learn a lot. Thank you for your service, you are a revered and necessary speed-bump on this roller-coast life we're all now leading, where staying upright and uncrossing our eyes is in itself an accomplishment, not to mention going forward into life.
Sincerely, A True Fan

I am currently a Tax LL.M. student at NYU (procrastinating instead of prepping for finals). I agree with pretty much everything posted so far. For someone who's always wanted to do Tax Law, NYU has been an amazing experience for me--great courses, amazing professors/practitioners, and good fellow students. Knowing what I know now, I would still do the program--I just would have hedged my bets against Big Law not hiring (and maybe looked to Tax Court or Big 4 in the Fall).

I have enjoyed everything about the program, except for the job hunt. I went to a Tier-2 JD school, and few have done better than me here at NYU. I've had a dozen interviews with Big Law. All but one of these firms was interviewing but not hiring. A previous poster said that maybe top 10% got Big Law... I would put it closer to 1%. There were like 115 full-time Tax LL.M.'s, and I know 1 who got a Big Law position. Basically, the only people hiring right now are the IRS, which is a position that many of us could've gotten without NYU...

For those trying to decide now whether to do NYU's Tax LL.M., I will say this. It is a great program--everything I wanted. For those who enjoy tax and enjoy being challenged, this program will do that. For those coming solely for the job prospects, you'll want to consider whether you feel the market will be any different one year from now...since the Big Law prospects this year were slim to nil. In the end, it comes down to your other prospects. If you have Big Law deferral, then NYU will provide you with cutting edge tax coursework (at a price, of course). For those with no other job prospects, NYU will provide you with a formal hiring process...but it would be up to you to make the most of it. This is a difficult decision, and I will all of you the best of luck.

164 & 167 -

I didn't know the EU patent office required 3 languages. That's good to know. Maybe German after all... gotta be easier than anything Asian.

Here's the thing about SJU Bankruptcy Program. They purposely only take 13-15 full-time candidates, so it's a tough process but well worth it.

NYU is a fantastic school but they have over 100 tax ll.m. candidates - hard to guarantee career placement. SJU purposely only picks 13-15 to help them find a good next move. It's also academia driven as you have to write a thesis.

192 - If you are 116 you already have the three european languages (English, Spanish, French) just the advanced degree which might just be a JD since LLB is undergrad in Europe.

23,
I am a UCLA student as well.
Should you stick around for a fourth year for an LLM?
DEFINITELY NOT
Why?
1. You will not actually learn "practical skills!"
If that was possible in law school, it seems likely that those "practical skills" would already be embedded in the generally useless second and third years. Because they are not, it seems very unlikely that you will pick them up during a fourth year.
2. Even if you do pick up "practical skills," it won't matter because they will be inferior to the same skills you would pick up doing real work- whether at a firm or at a public interest gig.
3. In return for another year of your life and another 40-50k of debt, you will receive (1) knowledge and skills that will be (a) the same as the shit you already picked up in the past three years and (b) completely useless in terms of increasing your prospects for a job after your fourth year.

Overall, it's cute that UCLA is offering this program.
But the bottom line is that if the school actually has the ability to teach practical skills, they should simply do so in the useless second and third years.
Thus, the "opportunity" for an LLM seems to be little more than a veil that will enable UCLA to collect another 30k from you while providing you with skills and additional degree that are essentially worthless.

Good luck to you and Go Bruins!

167 - chinese grammar is similar to english? that's the most idiotic thing i've heard today.

Its not idiotic. Chinese uses sentence structures with noun verb direct object. In comparison, Japanese has subject marker direct object then verb.
Example 1 (Chinese and English grammar): This individual is thinking with the wrong head.
(Japanese grammar) This individual wrong head with is thinking.

The main challenge to Chinese is pronunciation and Kanji memorization, but you don't need to memorize Kanji to speak.

NYU has an online program. Who knows how many people they accept into that. There are going to be a lot more students with this degree looking for jobs. It will not mean as much.

No jobs for NYU LLMs this year. Class of 09 will be passed by if firms hire next year b/c they hire through OCI.

Why don't schools offer a free LLM year to their grads to pad their employment numbers? If schools aren't counting students pursuing higher education as 'unemployed', it seems like it would be a good way to game the system.

I know it wouldn't work if too many people took the option, but if the number of students taking the option was small enough, it would remove them from the unemployed group and would probably at a minimal incremental cost per student.

How is Columbia or Cornell's LLM program?

SERIOUSLY:

I only know about Tax LL.M.s. They are generally worthwhile if you want to practice tax law and if you go to NYU, UF, or Georgetown. NYU has a larger class size which results in a bigger alumni network, and is the most recognized tax LL.M. UF has the smallest class size (they let in about 65 domestic students per year) which results in well-trained students (professors at UF pride themselves on their students' ability to read the Code and Regs and apply them). Don't know much about Georgetown, but it's my understanding that it's mostly night school classes with lots of IRS part-timers attending. Conversely, part-timers at NYU and UF probably make up less than 10% of each class. UF is by far the cheapest of the three and some out-of-state students can get in-state tuition there. Additionally, rent is nothing in Gainesville compared to DC and NY. But, of course, you'll give up some of the fun that comes with living in DC or NY.

Most tax LL.M.ers will tell you that their LL.M. year was their most difficult academic year by far (think 1L year times 3), but also most rewarding. Instead of taking BS classes that have no real world application (like in all top JD programs), LL.M. students learn strategies that they can use immediately in their tax practice. Indeed, most tax LL.M.s use their class outlines when answering client or partner questions for their first few years of practice. I know many partners who go back to theirs repeatedly too.

That said, if you have a tax accounting degree or are a CPA, then you can successfully practice tax law without overcoming a gigantic learning curve. For 90% of those without one of the above, an LL.M. is generally needed to practice tax law, and most tax partners look for that on your resume. Of course, if you're a Yalie or an HLS grad, then you can likely get the tax position if you really want it without the LL.M. You just won't know what the hell you're doing for the first 3 years or so of practice. Additionally, UVA seems to have a great tax faculty and students taking classes from those professors may not need the LL.M. to hit the ground running post-JD.

If you can get a Tax Court clerkship without first getting an LL.M., then by all means go for it. It will increase your job prospects more than an LL.M. But still, if you want to practice tax law and don't have a tax accounting background, then there's no better way to get a great tax knowledge base than by going to one of the Big 3 tax LL.M. programs.

I got an LLM in tax from BU after practicing for 7 years in bankruptcy realm (when the economy started to get better in 2000). It is a VERY hard program and I had an undergrad in accounting/finance from BU. Have my own solo practice in the suburbs and doing great. Taxes will always be there and I'll always be employed.

Bankruptcy is based on the economy, so an LLM in Bankruptcy is a waste of money. Why not just get an LLM in real estate, too, so you'll always be employed?

To Partner Emeritus:

It is most certainly not raining at Pine Valley (here just outside lovely Berlin, NJ) - but you may want to bring a coat, as it is in the upper 50s. Perhaps you should also plan on staying for dinner since the course is 90 MILES from any peers firms in NYC, just ouside Philly.

Also, maybe you want to consider NOT JUST LOOKING UP THE NUMBER ONE COURSE IN THE COUNTRY and saying you're a member.

Thanks

I like reading Partner Emeritus. He is a fake internet character who thinks going to a good law school/UG/prep school and making partner at some law firm makes him special.

PE: you've created a character who spent his whole career either helping other people get more money or making sure they didn't lose it. Those people, the ones your character served, they will always be more prestigeous than any success your character earned through merit.

You've basically created a really, really successful butler who makes fun of less successful butlers. Well, actually since we are talking about lawyers maybe the occupation is more like a hired gun or mercenary.

Anyway, other than that substantial inferiority, I find your PE posts to be consistently amusing and I hope you manage to find work at some point since I like working with attorneys who have a good sense of humor.

Tax Court clerkships are much better than LLMs.

WHAT ABOUT AN LLM FROM HARVARD/YALE FOR ASPIRING TEACHERS AT THE LAW SCHOOL LEVEL???

Where is that old shoe salesman PE? Golfing...my a$$. From the looks of his picture, I would say another round of rice & wine enemas.

I'm one of those students getting $80K to hang out for a year, and I'm doing an LLM. It is a way to get the 'pro-bono' stipend amount, and add letters to the name-plate.

Stop picking on Partner Emeritus. I always troll through the comments for his clever wit and insightful wisdom for my chuckle of the day.

Partner Emeritus ROCKS!!!!

160-161 - thanks for letting me know. This is both interesting and strange (very strange actually).

GULC is much harder to get into than NU's Tax LLM program. There is a lot of trolling for NU.

NU is second rate, even third rate compared to GULC. Everyone knows it is the big 3, UF, GULC, and NYU.

196, Chinese grammar is similar to English grammar, if in your world English does not have definite/indefinite articles, plural forms, verb tenses, linking verbs, subject-verb agreement, pronoun cases, or most types of prepositions.

By your analysis, where word order is the only consideration, Spanish grammar (s-v-o) is more similar to Chinese (s-v-o) than Latin (no word order).

116 - Tulane's Admiralty LLM is one of the best in the nation and will open many doors with the P&I clubs and big bluewater shipping firms.

This is the first time that I have felt compelled to comment here. I think that I speak for most of the people that visit this site when I say that Partner Emeritus is great and his are the only comments worth reading. I find him to have a wonderful sense of humor while also providing some pretty good insight along the way. Please keep posting!

How about an ma in accounting instead? At least if no law jobs are to be found, you'd have something.

Flat tax is going to put all the Tax LLM's into abstract poverty. It makes little sense for the government to have such a complicated system takes away money the government could collect through a streamlined process and instead let lawyers reap the benefits. Tax LLM is going to go the way of Typewriter Pedagogy.

214 - Accounting has already been outsourced

200: "That said, if you have a tax accounting degree or are a CPA, then you can successfully practice tax law without overcoming a gigantic learning curve. For 90% of those without one of the above, an LL.M. is generally needed to practice tax law, and most tax partners look for that on your resume."

200 seems to know what he/she is talking about except for the above quote. A tax LLM is not necessary to practice at big law firms and partners do not look for it. Taking 2-3 tax classes in regular law school is enough.

What about an international arbitration LLM at UCL or a EU university for US lawyers? Useful?

A big problem with the Tax LL.M. is that if you have a good JD degree you are now limited to applying to tax jobs, whereas without the LL.M. you can market yourself for different areas.

"NU is second rate, even third rate compared to GULC"

Absolutely laughable. As to both Tax LLM's and JD program. I'm no even going to get into why. Do some diligence and actually compare the programs. Do Gtown professors even teach in the LLM program (they do have some great adjuncts, I'll concede)

Is a tax llm needed or helpful for a person who wants to practice public finance law?

217: 200 here. Fair point. I think that's arguable depending on the BigLaw partner in question and maybe "needed" was the wrong word to use there. Maybe I should have said that an LL.M. is extremely helpful" to those people. Plus, since all of my tax partner bosses have LL.M.s, they won't hire anyone in the tax group without that or a CPA.

And 2-3 JD tax classes (depending on the professor, of course), is roughly the equivalent of 1 LL.M. tax class. Hell, many JD programs combine corporate and partnership tax into a one semester class. There's no way that those students have a law-firm-ready understanding of a corp or p'ship tax question. If you've got a partner that is willing to train you though, and if you're smart, then those 2-3 JD tax classes may actually be enough. So I'm with you there. But ,while I've heard tales of partners that take the time to train associates, I don't actually think that they exist.

Just my two cents. Thanks for the correction.

219: Simply not true. Many tax LL.M.s don't go on to practice tax law, by choice. They simply use their LL.M. the same way that MBAs use their degree: As an extra bit of marketing.

Anyone graduate with an insurance LLM from UConn? If so, please post your thoughts on whether it was worth it. Thanks.

116 & 212

agreed - great program if that's your field

222: 217 here. Tax people are so nice, even on the internet. That is one reason why I love my job.

You're right 225. Even IRS people are nice most of the time. Tax practice sure beats the hell out of being screamed at by some two-bit plaintiffs attorney over whether or not an airbag properly deployed.

Getting an LLM is like wearing a nice sweater when your face is fucking ugly. All that matters is that your face is fucking ugly.

227 - something tells me that your face is fucking ugly, just like your soul. Enjoy your life of solitude.

I bet 227 hates his job.

156 - The Employee Benefits Certificate from Georgetown is very well respected in the field. If you don't intend to specialize in employee benefits, you should go to NYU for your Tax LL.M. (or Florida because it is cheaper). If, however, you want to practice in employee benefits, you should go to Georgetown. I thought the program was great and totally worth the money. (Employee benefits is a great field - even without M&A, I'm still really busy).

222- i disagree. I thought coming to NYU this year for the Tax LL.M. would be an additional strength when interviewing for corporate or restructuring jobs. Certainly this market sucks, but I am really having trouble explaining to non tax lawyers, why my "extra" year of tax would be helpful to other practices. Maybe a few years down the road i can transition, but right now, career services is saying don't even bother applying to non-tax jobs.

Man, that sucks 231. I'd go after any job that is Code-based (i.e., bankruptcy). You should have the skills needed to succeed in that. It really is just this year that has been really tough on LL.M.s getting jobs though. The past five years were fine and I've heard that most firms plan to be hiring next time around.

231 - A tax LLM is helpful for corporate positions, especially at midsized firms, if you already have some corporate experience. If you go straight through, I agree with you. You're going to have a tough time explaining why you got a tax LLM if you really want to practice corpoate law.

222 - I agree with 231. Why get a tax LLM if you aren't going to be a tax practictioner? It doesn't make you a better deal lawyer. Tax is just one aspect of transactional work. In deals of any significance at all, tax issues are almost always handled by a tax specialist. The very basics of tax is a must know for all business lawyers. However, anything beyond that, you get a tax lawyer involved. At least at a large firm. Being familiar with concepts is one thing. But you can get that at the JD level.

During the up economy, does an good tax LLM program give you a second bite at the big law apple? Of course, I realize you need to want to stay in tax.

234- well the point of this post is whether it is a good thing for a deferred corporate associate to go get an LL.M.

I am telling you from experience that if you job isn't there still when you graduate, it will be hard to break away from tax, even if you hadn't intended to necessarily do tax.

235 here-

More specifically, I'm wondering if you had grades to get an SA and end up getting no-offered because of this shit economy, would an LLM be a way to get a 2nd shot at big law?

87 - Very. Got denied despite being top 2% at a top 50 school with a host of other credentials. I hear they only take 2-5 per year. Got into Columbia and NYU though...

118 - The securities and financial regulation LL.M. from GULC is useful, but it is not a golden ticket. I found that it was useful to transition from a litigation practice to a securities practice. Most of my graduating class fell into one of two categories. Those that wound up never using the degree, and those who have gone on to very successful securities careers. The latter were able to do one of two things: (a) use the LL.M. to get into the SEC and then lateral into big law, or (b) move to fly-over country where an LL.M. from G-town is exotic, and go to work for a securities practice there.

I found that the LL.M. gave me a breadth of understanding of securities regulation that most of my compatriots didn't develop (if at all) until much later in their careers. Still, don't expect anyone (other than maybe your mother) to be impressed with the degree.

220 -

You're just buying whatever in the hell US News is selling, aren't you? Comparing NU's JD (even LLM) program to GULC's is a joke. Your faculty doesn't hold a candle, your curriculum is 1/10th the size and you're legal market is blue-collar Chicago.

NU's undeserved, lofty ranking is piggy backed on it's undergrad reputation (which is also inflated). Essentially, the ratings have thrown your school the proverbial bone so that they don't seem entirely biased toward the Coasts (with U of C in between).

NU's law program in NYC would be called Fordham.

42- You probably should not get an LLM. If you read through the comments, I think you should get a general sense for the value of an LLM. An LLM is worth getting in some particular instances (ie tax from a great program, foreign student), but it is not generally something you do on a whim because you have a deferral and want to find something good to do with your time. You need to find a good program and a good reason for getting the LLM that is directly tied to your future career path, otherwise it will not be worth your time and efforts.

if you want to specialize in tax, go to NYU.
if you want to specialize in bankruptcy, go to St. John's.
georgetown for tax or securities is good too.

if you have interest in teaching or academia, LLM is great too. i think its a worthwhile investment. google a lot of partners in tax/bankruptcy departments and ull see they have LLMs.

If you are out of work, go to Florida. Although I am partial to Florida, it is the same as NYU and GTown expect it costs 75% less.

Would a combined JD/LLM(tax) be worth it from NYU, Florida, or GULC if it only requires an extra semester? I have an interest in tax, and with it being likely I'll get deferred or even no offered after this summer I need to have few back-ups.

The three required anguages of the EPO are English, French, and German - not just any three European languages.
The EPO is an insanely sweet deal, but only hires citizens of member states.

I believe that GULC was ranked the top tax LLM program in the country by US News. But, I agree with others, its really a matter of GULC, NYU and possibly Florida vs all others. For what it's worth, more employers do on-campus interviews at GULC than any other law school in the country.

Does anyone know if there are still spots available at any of the top schools for the fall semester?

Does anyone know if there are still spots available at any of the top schools for the fall semester?

247/248 - I think you can still apply. I would call the director of admissions. The florida deadline isnt until June 1, so hurry up and apply.

Ultimate Answer:
This is the thing. Only domestic LL.M worth getting is the Tax LL.M from NYU. GULC or Florida are 2nd tier. It is NYU or nothing.

Job Prospects:
Job prospects out of LL.M Tax from NYU will depend largely on your pre-LL.M credentials.

Lawyers who are BIGLAW quality (top law school / top grade) will find this degree to be awarding. Only 10~20% of NYU student body are composed of these people. These people can reasonably be pissed if they don't land a job after LL.M. So people who were laid-off...give LL.M a shot.

Lawyers that are non-BIGLAW quality (2nd tier law school / poor grade) who want to catapult into BIGLAW will have mixed results. Seriously, if you graduated top 40% at a 2nd tier law school, what makes you think an extra year of school (btw, LL.M does not require GRE, LSAT, or other admissions-related standardized test which kills its credibility) will be helpful.

Is LL.M Helpful?
Materials you learn as a Tax LL.M at NYU can be self-learned at job setting or through weekend reading.

Tax LL.Ms are taught practically. No need to read cases. No need to decipher policy rationales. No need to develop deeper understanding of tax. The classes require you to understand the Tax Code and taught using PRACTICE GUIDES (or PRACTICE GUIDE METHOD or PROBLEM METHOD). Of course deeper understanding of tax will help tremendously.

Recommendation:
Best way is the take few tax courses as a J.D. (Fed Income, Corp, PNS, and Int'l) and make your firm pay for your part-time LL.M. As a J.D. just try to learn how to think like a tax lawyer. At the firm, you just self-learn stuff. If you are still having problems, do some weekend studying. If you are still having problems, then get an LL.M (paid by firm). If you are still having problems, you are probably screwed.

Insecurity?
YES! LL.Ms are insecure. Think about it. You are a 3L from NYU with V-10 firm job lined up. This is pretty common in places like NYU. Then you meet a guy who goes to your school, uses your law school facilities (cafeteria, couch, bathroom, desk, library..etc) and he is from a 2nd tier law school (let's say carDOZO) who has never even interviewed at BIGLAW. You two engage in conversation. He asks you where you will be working. You say Tax Department at a big NY firm. He then thinks to himself, "why is it that he is more marketable when I know more about tax???" So then he asks you few tax questions and you give him 1/2 intelligent apathetic answer because you don't want to really talk about law with a stranger. He goes in deeper. Starts spewing things about carried interest tax and how it is a hot topic. You think to yourself..hmm...wtf? You make it known to him that you don't want to talk about anything law related. He takes this as an offense. And this is when he drops the L. "I am a Tax LL.M in the best program! I know more about Tax than you do! I take 6 tax classes per semester! I should get your job! Tax lawyers are the smartest people!" LL.Ms are insecure because they know that they are a 2nd tier citizen at the law school they are in. Wouldn't you feel that way if you were a DOZO grad at NYU?

250

TITCR

I am a GULC law student who will be starting at a top DC firm. I get this all the time from Tax LL.Ms at my school. "Oh~ tax is haaarrrd. It is harder than J.D.! You will die in tax~! we take 6 classes per semester~! We are all sooo smart!"

I am so annoyed by these people.

Need Advice:
I'm one of those tier 2 JD graduates everyone loves to bash. I landed at a tier 2 school mostly due to slacking off and partying a little too much in college. At this point, I am employed, at a "decent" job in NY, but not getting paid enough to make a serious dent in loans. I've been accepted into a tier 1 LLM program in international law. I understand the risk and that there is no guarantee I will gain meaningful employment afterwards. However, I want to know if there are any success stories out there.
My goal would be to find a "better" (financially) firm job afterwards, doing international transaction work perhaps. I'm not looking for BigLaw, but something where I can work for 5 years to pay down the debt before moving on to international public interest work.
Is there a brightside I can shoot for? or am I totally going down the wrong path?

What about an LLM in a tax derivative? I am considering one in ERISA/Employee Benefits...

253

I would think you will always find a job. Whether you will get a ROI or get lucrative employment are separate questions altogether.

You might get better answers in the tax forums mentioned above.

to 78 & 85,

I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE: INBREDS WHO ARE MAD THAT ASIANS DON'T GIVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY & EXCEL AT EVERYTHING YOU FAIL.

ASIANS NOT ONLY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF MULTIPLE LANGUAGES BUT ALSO TICKETS TO HIGH-PAY JOB MARKETS WHICH YOU LOW CLASS DEADBEATS CAN ONLY DREAM OF.

TO 78

AND

TO 85,

I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE: INBREDS, ANGERED AND HURT BY THE ASIANS WHO DON'T GIVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY & EXCEL AT EVERYTHING YOU FAIL.

THEY NOT ONLY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF MULTIPLE LANGUAGES BUT ALSO TICKETS TO HIGH-PAY JOB MARKETS WHICH YOU LOW CLASS DEADBEATS CAN ONLY DREAM OF.

78 & 85, YOU ARE PATHETIC.

TO 78

AND

TO 85,

I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE: INBREDS, ANGERED AND HURT BY THE ASIANS WHO DON'T GIVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY & EXCEL AT EVERYTHING YOU FAIL.

THEY NOT ONLY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF MULTIPLE LANGUAGES BUT ALSO TICKETS TO HIGH-PAY JOB MARKETS WHICH YOU LOW CLASS DEADBEATS CAN ONLY DREAM OF.

78 & 85, YOU ARE PATHETIC.

I'm a 2L from a regional law school in FL. I am considering obtaining an LLM in international arbitration from a UK school after graduation. Any thoughts? Other than "all LLMs, unless a tax LLM from a top school are worthless." I greatly appreciate the advice. Thanks!

I'm a 2L from a regional law school in FL. I am considering obtaining an LLM in international arbitration from a UK school after graduation. Any thoughts? Other than "all LLMs, unless a tax LLM from a top school are worthless." I greatly appreciate the advice. Thanks!

Do you know anything about USD LL.M in Tax program?

So sad yet so true.

Generally LLMs are worthless for the purposes of improving your job prospect. Two exceptions are foreign lawyers (who already have impressive credentials) to have a shot at short-term gig at american BigLaw and Tax LLMs from NYU who graduate top of their class.

ITE, getting an LLM to improve your chance at BigLaw would be like flushing $60k down the toilet, scooping some of that water, sprinkling it on a copy of your resume and sending it in along with your TTT JD diploma.

Unless you are serious about cracking into Tax Law, I would highly recommend you to find a pro bono or government jobs for the next few years.