Richardon

Trogdor!

Clever headline marred by egregious typo.

I can't take this for much longer. The bad news needs to stop eventually, right?

At this rate, biglaw will have an average of 10 associates per firm by the end of 2009.

Never heard of Richardon

Give me back that big Layoff, Fish!
Give me that Fish!

these pretzels are making me fishy

"IP lawyers tend to get their land legs back quickly."

I know a number of laid-off IP lawyers would beg to differ...

This firm would be better served by adopting my hybrid tough love package. Reducing starting associate salaries to $105K could have salvaged 60 of those 120 terminated associates and/or staff. Firms (peer or non-peer) need to seize the opportunity presented by this anemic economy by changing the antiquated lockstep salary structure and terminating the lazy and/or subpar associates. This will force morale to improve while inculcating an extremely disciplined work ethic in the remaining personnel. I would also recommend hiring a few foreign born attorneys to remind other associates that they are expendable for cheaper labor.

Given that I have $250,000 in student loan debt, no job, and no possibility of banging hot chicks anytime soon, I'd rather go to a hellworld like Salusa Secundus with its high mortality rate than associate with you IP whingers.

Dealbreaker should replace that add with the woman and the grapes with someone feeding Mystal from a big platter of doughnuts or hamburgers.

By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Warvan, Fish & Richardson associates shall be avenged.

PE makes this site

11,

I may be misreading this, but are you suggesting that but for your lack of a job and onerous debt you would be banging chicks, or are you just listing one extra lame thing about you right now? If its the former, that is much sadder, cause you must be banging some seriously vapid chicks. If its the latter, then let me remind you that if unemployment is good for anything its a time to reacquaint yourself to the world of cheap booze and cheaper women. Good luck out there : )

15,

Yes, hot chicks want to date/bang guys in crappy studio apartments with no job or the prospect of a job and who eats ramen noodles three times a day.

My sodium levels must be off the chart, but that's OK. Once I'm on Salusa Secundus and disarming IEDs set off by the locals, I'll be fine.

In Kahless' name! The soundrels we exile to Rura Penthe have more honor than the dogs that run Fish & Richardson!

What about Darby & Darby?

Any news on their incoming associates??

What percentage is that?

I'm fucking fed up with all the layoffs. I'm taking a hike to far off Almery and Ascolais.

Do you know anyone who might be interested in hiring a rogue?

No laughing magicians need apply.

Ok guys, listen up. I need information now. Tell me what's going on at other IP shops. I want to know about Finnegan, Foley, Cooley, Townsend, Kenyon, Darby, and/or any other firm with a large IP practice.

-Shaken patent stud

IP attorneys from my old firm used to get laid off all the time, it was no big deal.

-Fish out of water

15,

Lots of frat-type law students use this board solely to vent their sexual frustration, fear of women, and fear of homosexuals. It is strange and sad, but there it is.

The only things novel, useful, non-obvious and patentable around here are my balls.

22-Darby fired alot of people

*nervously approaches PE and asks for one of those fancy 105k/yr jobs*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Other firms just don't have the stomach to adopt Partner Emeritus' hybrid tough love package. Only Thompson Hine has the huevos grande to step up to the plate.

And they go one step further by first hyping the idea of alternative to layoffs 7 days before doing a big round of layoffs. Classy!

1) Feb. 12th - Thompson Hine press release hyping the idea that there are many superior alternatives to layoffs -

http://www.thompsonhine.com/publications/publication1705.html

2) Feb. 19th - Seven days later Thompson Hine does a large round of layoffs AND slashes associate pay. -

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2009/02/thompson-hine-cuts-associate-pay.html

THOMPSON HINE - even we won't follow our advice!

(note to the partners - you are paying me to sit in my office and write this about you. Enjoy.)

There's IP, then there's patent law.
Obvioulsy Fish Hardon got rid of some of the "soft" ip associates.

darby fired a ton of people if you look at their website they are way down in numbers

There is no such thing as an IP stud.

You can specialize in IP, but you're not a stud. You're an overweight, balding, or nerdy looking weakling.

The real studs are like men like Evan Chesler. Yes, him with the hot fudge nipples.

FR should be firing some partners. That firm grew so fast that there are a bunch of young partners that got on board before the firm took off. Many are not that good but still cost a ton.

Laid off associates become poor.

Because they are poor, they must eat Ramen exclusively.

Ramen contains lots of sodium.

Sodium contributes to heart disease.

Laid off associates begin developing heart disease at age 25?

Could we arrange a steel cage death match among PE, t-10 1L, and that bitter Thompson Hine guy? It would guarantee at least two of them never post again... Maybe all 3 if we get lucky.

Hey ATL! Why aren't you covering the PARTNER layoffs at Paul Hastings? They just finished their annual partner assessments and here come the cuts! This is coming on the heals of the recent partner de-equitizations.

PE - So are you a Drinker Biddle partner? Did they get the $105,000 first year figure from you? Final question, did you steal that $105,000 figure from yesterday's post on DBR? What is it now either you stole it or you work at DBR! I believe you stole it!

This comment is addressed to post no. 36.

I suggested the $105K figure months ago on this site. Perhaps the keen folks at DBR adopted that figure, which I take as a form of flattery rather than an act of theft.

7 - Well done.

33 - FYI, they now sell Ramen with 35% sodium. Don't ask me how I know that.

I'm curious what this means for the NY IP market.

I know Fish never had many people in NY. I know Kenyon had layoffs about a year ago (before the bubble even) and has been struggling since.

What about Kirkland and Fitzpatrick Cella? I would imagine the former is the IP powerhouse in NY, and I haven't heard any news out of the latter (which I think has a pretty narrow practice, if I'm not mistaken, but I'm looking at the largest IP practices in NY and they are up there).

16

Its called a personality. If you think girls want to bang (or not bang) you based on the type of noodle you eat, you are spending too much with seriously sad souls. Good luck with getting over a severe inferiority complex.

15

7 - Well done.

33 - FYI, they now sell Ramen with 35% less sodium. Don't ask me how I know that.

I eat Ramen. Come and get it ladies.

PE, how do you find the time to play on the internet all day?

I would take a 50% cut in salary to run my hands through Evan Chesler's beefcake chest. The man is a master litigator and hunk people!!!!

PE, your schtick is old, but I'll reply anyway. You never suggeted 105. You suggest whatever other low ballers suggest. Before it was 70k. Before then it was outsourcing to India. Before that you didn't exist and this site still sucked.

Btw, please people, USE ADBLOCK and block this sites revenue until they get rid of that god damn asian girl feeding grapes ad. Normally I don't aggressively block ads, but on this site, I block the flash ads, the still ads, and even the txt ads just so I can use the resources of this site without them getting anything for it. Hell, i'm blocking the stories from dealbreaker just for the hell of it.

And geez, is the IP market that bad or is Fish just badly run? Morgan Finnegan melted and now fish is hemorrhaging. And they already had a "hybrid" package to begin with: they cut pay if you didn't make 2k hours. Guess not enough

does anyone know what groups got hit the most?

was it corp / ip lit / soft ip / patent? what was the break down by year and area?

I agree with No. 10.

Apparently, Fish doesn't do it right.

35-We've heard of at least one in the PH NY office. Do you know which other offices will be affected?

How in the world do you accumulate $250k in debt in 3 years???

39 -

Baker Botts and Kirkland are your safest bets. As for the boutiques, Darby is hurting the most. Kenyon deferred start dates, but appears to be weathering the storm. Fitzpatrick is showing no outward signs of weakness, but as you stated their small practice makes them tough to gauge.

22 - I think you should beg Mystal to do an open thread on IP firms. IP lawyers and our firms get the shaft around here, and we deserve to have a full vetting just like any other practice area.

45 - 36 here. Thanks for saying that about PE's figures! PE didn't have the 105K figure until DBR did it! Set the record str8!

Latham will be doing layoffs starting next week. If you get an email from associates committee to get your reviews - just pack up your stuff and go home.

Ok, so what does this mean for incoming Fish IP associates??? Do I still have a job? When do I start?

QUINN REMAINS

49: One of the partners told my source that the partner cuts will affect LA, DC and NY (but could also affect other US offices).

Rumor has it that Evan Chesler laid off his soap handler for performance-based reasons. A line around Worldwide Plaza is already forming. Interviews begin at 9:30am tomorrow. Lather up!!!!

54. I would not count on it.

Rumor has it that Evan Chesler laid off his soap handler for performance-based reasons. A line around Worldwide Plaza is already forming. Interviews begin at 9:30am tomorrow. Lather up!!!!

54 - I wouldn't count on it, that's for fucking sure.

28 - Nobody cares about TH or your dildo. I doubt you work for TH and if you did, they flung you like an old cum rag a long time ago.

56-Doesn't surprise me. Other than the IP group, there is no work in the NY office. It's like a ghost town after 6.

Props to 7, especially given how quick the joke came after this was posted.

IP is tanking along with the rest of the market. Prosecution arrow headed downward; litigation off the cliff.

Agree there should be IP thread--lots of stuff happening not making it to ATL.

Are these layoffs already reflected in the firm directory?

IP is no safe haven. Sorry engineers - getting into a TTT to practice in IP isn't going to save you now.

incoming associates have heard nothing since offers were initially extended back in august. does anyone have any info on start dates?

PE and all incarnations of PE jumped the shark awhile ago...

I hear the hair on Chesler's chest can do push ups.

I hear the hair on Chesler's chest can do push ups.

I hear the hair on Chesler's chest can do push ups.

4 years ago: engineer who gets a 162 could go to American University, graduate at the median, and get well-paying IP job.

Today: IP demands the same credentials as any other practice area. The free lunch is over.

69-71 -- i hear that you only have to hit the "post comment" button once and then wait...and even if it gives you an error message, your post is likely on the wall

13, I believe it is the "suns" or Warvan, not "sons."

One would be much more likely to swear an oath on the great balls of fire that provide all energy for life on the planet (Warvan) than some guys who had a well-known father (Warvan).

Comment removed by moderator.

72, 1 year ago I graduated from a T2 @ the median and got a well-paying IP job. I also have no debt. The decision to major in engineering sure looks good right about now.

Actual SAT Question:

Big Law is to Harry Dunne's explosive diarrhea in Mary Swanson's house in Aspen as Small Law is to . . .

Answer: Sandy Lyle's shart at a party with Rueben Feffer .

Both stink but one allows you to still walk away with your head held high.

As a 2L intending to work in patent law, this news is really troubling. I thought patent work is largely immune to the general economic slowdown??

31: I'm in IP (patents, no less), and am quite fit and (by all accounts) good-looking. And I'm sure I could kick your scrawny butt without breaking a sweat. Not all people with high IQs and science backgrounds are dweebs. Sorry to force you to recognize your inadequacies.

79 -- John, is that you?

64 - what firm are you at?
Patent lit is off the charts, our office is busy as hell.

This firm hasn't been the same since Ally McBeal left it to go in house.

72 - totally wrong. If you have a desirable technical background (e.g., EE) the law school you attended means very little. Your non-legal degree(s) is/are far more important. Law school is a mere formality, if you want to practice patent law within an in-demand technical area. You even get to work fewer hours! Trust me, I know.

This news shows how bad F&R is. Other IP groups at respectable firms are probably the only groups hitting quotas (except a few bankruptcy groups).

"I heard a rumor FR was just waiting for Kirkland to announce because they didn't want to announce a later date. I predict they match or beat KE's 11/30 next week.

You heard it here first."

This Poster = EPIC FAIL

51-

Baker Botts? First, the firm as a whole is hurting. Second, the firms IP department is decent, but not at all the "best bet" you make it out to be. Try again!

83 - industry wide, IP Lit is tanking at the moment relative to other groups. I think you base your assertions on conventional wisdom rather than the actual current market trend (which sure seems to be hitting Fish hard).
http://www.patentlyo.com/.a/6a00d8341c588553ef01157074d6e2970b-pi

I know some Paul Hastings partners that should have been canned long ago. I'll be looking for news on this.

The offshore legal services industry is poised for enormous growth. Exponential projections of industry estimates compete for hyperbole with the intensity perhaps not dissimilar to that of a fortune tellers gaze into a crystal ball. Even so, it is accurate to say that credible players in this industry have collectively just scratched the surface of the immense potential that lies ahead.

http://www.offshoringtimes.com/Pages/2009/BPO_news2500.html

Fish & RichardTTTson

86 - I'm not sure what timeline that graph is comparing, but even if IP LIt is slower than it was, it is still relatively huge. Just because it is off a previous insanely high pace doesn't mean it's "tanking."

Also, many clients are opting for the strategic reexamination trend as of late, which is handled largely by prosecutors in conjunction with litigators. (your graphs doesn't mention patent prosecution). So, there is still tons of IP work out there, if you have the right skill set.

Fish may not be the best metric for determining market trends. I don't know exactly what is going on over there. The IP group at my firm (and plenty of other AmLaw 100s with which I am familiar) is operating above 100%, with no layoffs. I don't think there are many other practice groups that can say that.

86, this is a chart indicating corporate council's projections on future spending. This says to me that now is a good time to represent the patent trolls of the world.

intttellectttual properttty sucks

92 failed pre-algebra

87-NY has more than its share. Now that the PHJW partner assessments are done, let the musical chairs begin!!!

I also hear that Fish & Richardson did not include a starting salary in their offer letters. The layoffs may be an indication that they could be lowering starting salaries, especially in smaller markets where they currently pay $160k.

Hey law guru, patent bar = must be a U.S. citizen. STFU

patent prosecution = most boring practice area ever BY FAR

Fish and Rich said they'd pay us the most
Of any law firm, of this they did boast
But it looks like were lost, yes myself and my class
They'll leave us with not but a dick in the ass.

NOOOOOOOOOOO -- don't cut into my 160,000!!!!!!!!!!! Fire as many 5th years as you like, but leave my salary alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ninettty tttwo -- you suck!

97 - my practice may be boring but at least I am employed and still making a sh!tload of money - unlike many of my corporate practice "peers" (who are deservedly out on the street).

96: Don't have to be a US citizen to take the patent bar. In fact, I think the patent agent with the most filings is in Taiwan (Winston Hsu).

92 here. What's the matter? Did I disparage your practice area? It's only the truth. What does patttenttt work get you? Certainly no exit options.

If you do litigation, you are left begging in house counsel for cases IF you are lucky enough to make partner. If you do prosecution, you'll be fired after 5-7 yrs and you get to write patents in your basement at $6,000 a pop IF you are lucky. What big company needs a patent counsel except the techs and pharma ?

Oh and all the while there's pending legislation to limit the damages amount in infringement cases, which means less incentive for trolls to sue. That means less litigation for you dipshits out there.

You don't need to pass pre-algebra to know all that means inTTTellecTTTual properTTTy sucks.

Sucks for all the laid off people.

Problem with Fish is that they aren't good at anything. They don't focus enough on pros to be an elite pros shop, and converted patent prosecutors make terrible litigators - so they suck at litigation.

They never should have been paying 160 in the first place. The firm is third tier, just like the schools its attorneys come from.

10, are you suggesting paying foreign-born associates who work in America a reduced rate for the same job? Apparently you're unfamiliar with Title VII. Good thing you're not a real Partner and probably not a lawyer at all.

for all the naysayers that talk about IP work dropping off, you are correct...when it comes to overpriced, under-delivering shops like Fish and large GP firms. for the middle tier firms, business is booming, and I mean booming. we have 12 people in our office and, with all the companies leaving places like fish, with are busting at the gut with lack of space.

high priced places like fish are dead. fish bought out a bunch of second rate shops throughout the company trying to make itself look like a big player. for the size they became, they should have twice as much litigation. unfortunately, because of their bloated billing schedule, companies are leaving. the partners are going no where because they werent shit to begin with and no body wants their no book of business asses.

any doubters? find a friend at fish and ask them how they have been forced to bid for work lately. they undercut litigation by millions just to make it look they they arent tanking. prosecution? they are telling clients they dont need to pay for months...just please dont leave us.

desparation has set in. we had two fish partners try to sell their practices to our firm. sorry, you guys had no book when you went to fish and no book now. no one wanted them before fish, and with the taint of fish, no one wants them now.

in about a year, fish will be back down to around 200 attorneys and start first years out around 140. bet on it.

39, the Kirkland IP practice is alive and well. Probably too busy if anything. The soft IP OMM crew has brought in a lot of additional IP business as well. In fact, the department is so busy that this group is staffing some of its cases with general lit associates as well as IP associates.

102 - 96 is correct (for the most part) and you are a douchenozzle - see 37 CFR § 11.6(c). Only Canadian's have true reciprocity w/ the U.S., all others have beyond limited ability to represent individuals from their homeland. H1-B's when allowed to take the patent bar (which is very rarely) have to get a green card before they are registered.

104- you are such a dumbass. FR ranks 1st in patent litigation. If FR is third tier firm, it is certainly a dawn good third tier firm. FR has been ranked 1st in patent litigation for lat few years, beating out law firms like Quinn E., Cooley Godward, Kirkland E., and the like. If FR is TTT, think of those that rank below FR.

103, you can't be serious. Are you a troll trying to make people bite at how stupid you are?

Or are you dumb enough to not realize how important patents are to the so called "exit options"? In the case of pharma it is almost the entire worth of their company. In the case of tech it is a huge significant portion of the company. And it seems like you're trying to diminish tech companies - IBM, HP, Microsoft, Apple, Motorola, Intel, Phizer, etc. Have you ever been to silicon valley.

You are obviously too dumb to function - may God have mercy on your soul.

Does anyone know what market is for severance for laid off partners (read 1st year partner)? It is happening.

Does anyone know what market is for severance for laid off partners (read 1st year partner)? It is happening.

102, 108:

If you are permanent resident, you can be registered before the PTO. If you are on a H or F visa, you get limited recognition - typically, only for clients from their home country or sometimes only for the sponsoring company.

Canadians can practice before the PTO for Canadian applicants resident in Canada only. As far as I know there is no reciprocity from CIPO for US attorneys. If you know of a way getting reciprocity, please post explanation/link.

Offshoring is meaningless for patent pros work originating from domestic clients. Until and unless you have a foreign filing license, the invention can't be sent offshore. IBM/GE entered into some sort of private arrangement with Commerce, but everyone else is stuck with a plain reading of the rules. So, you can't offshore the biggest part of the work - the drafting of the application. If you wrote the application, it makes no sense to have the technical analysis done years later by someone in India, then read through the draft and sign off, while taking the chance when asked specifics by the client you are clueless.

Applications originating overseas will have instructions prepared by the agents who wrote the application. You still need someone with a reg number to sign.

If you are running low on patent pros, the regged attorneys can also do TM work, but not the other way around. At my firm, all patent pros attorneys are required to do one TM Office response and review one TM search opinion every quarter to stay current.

At my firm, the soft IP attorneys were trying to write patent opinions with the help of patent agents. Nice experiment that failed miserably. Clients were billed for the patent agent's technical analysis and the soft IP attorney's legal analysis. It always came out higher than just having the patent attorney do the technical analysis and write the opinion directly. Every client objected to the bills.

75 - your 'so in The Know' act is obscenely lame. Here, try the STFU. I squeezed it myself.

75, it's disgusting that you would air your firm's dirty laundry like that here.

75 = retard. If you're going to go after specific FR partners go after the leeches that don't bring in business yet still collect equity partner pay. The folks you named are great attorneys and make it rain for a good number of people at FR. That's all I care about as an associate. Why do you care about what they do in their personal life?

14 - You ruin this site.

96 - You forgot about the exception. You must be in a TTT school. Have you considered becoming a dabbawala.

90% of litigation cost is discovery and that work will belong to India.

Growing outsourcing / off shoring opportunities in the fields of patents and IP from US, Europe and Japan (due to abundant talent and state-of-the-art infrastructure. Operational excellence that has delivered cost and quality leadership in offshore services centres).

IP = McKool Smith = $177,000

113 is spot on.

102-
Yes, but Winston Hsu's work product leaves MUCH to be desired.

113-
I'm dubious to what degree some agreement with Commerce is necessarily to offshore drafting the specification, and how the "plain reading of the rules" precludes offshoring.

That being said, I've seen applications drafted in India and they're worthless.

106 - worst-case scenario: Fish lowers billing rates and competes with middle tier firms, right? If middle-tier firms are paying 160, then why wouldn't Fish? Are you saying that Fish's costs are inherently higher?

121, by law every invention made in the U.S. needs an export license before it can be sent outside the U.S. as per export control act. When you file a US application, the license comes as an acknowledgment on the filing receipt. You can also apply for it separately. In any case, it requires a write-up - done by US attorneys.

Commerce has been cracking down on foreign filing license requirements. If you use PAIR, you have to check a box acknowledging the requirement before PAIR lets you log on.

IBM/GE managed to get the Commerce Dept to bend the rules in the 1980's for them.

http://www.uspto.gov/go/og/con/files/cons101.htm

Why is IP at firms like Kirkland still booming while Fish, long an IP powerhouse, is suffering? Is the difference just the caliber of clients/quality of the IP Partners? Doesn't Fish have just as big clients and impressive Partners as some of these other firms/

125, F&R branched out. IP is just a part. I bet the layoffs are in Coprorate.

Patent Prosecution and Strategic Counseling
Litigation and Dispute Resolution
Patent Litigation
Complex Commercial Litigation
White Collar
Litigation in the ITC
Litigation in the Delaware Chancery Court
Appellate
Employee Mobility
Trademarks, Copyrights, New Media and Entertainment
Corporate and Securities
Regulatory and Government Affairs
Advertising & Marketing
Communications & Spectrum Regulation
Drug & Medical Device Regulation
Export Controls, Foreign Policy & National Security Issues
Satellites & Space Systems

Here's what the announcement should have said if firm President Peter Devlin was going to be truthful (of course we know THAT wasn't going to happen)

"This decision is due solely to our greed and $800+ /hour billing rates for partners who have no legal or technical skill but rather "manage" others at significant expense to the client. These layoffs are not based on the performance of these employees, but rather based on our greed and disregard for those who have been loyal to us. We regret nothing, certainly not their departure, and will continue to bill at our overinflated rates. Backstabbing our former people(and our clients) is our strength, and in it, we will continue to excel. As long as we can bill $800+ per hour for doing no useful work for the clients, Fish & Richardson remains financially strong. Our enduring commitment to overcharge our clients remains paramount, in good economic times and bad.

125, don't leave "sexual harassment of office staff" off that list!

didn't fish get a $1billion+ judgment against microsoft overturned this year? yeah...definitely sounds like they have crappy attorneys and shitty clients--any TTT asshole can save their client a billion dollars in complex patent litigation...

128, you are a tard basket...it was 126 who had the list, not 125...

Moderator - please remove comment #75. I think my current wife patrols these comments.

72 - 95% of biglaw associates couldn't graduate with a degree in Engineering.

Law school is a toddler's game compared to Engineering.

Exclusive video footage of a recent Fish partnership meeting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK0cUv3ba-o

you're all a bunch of asshats

132 = Truth

107, how are the general lit folks doing on the IP lit cases? Are they generally good or generally bad?

136, I do mostly patent work so I haven't worked with them directly. And they've really been brought on the soft IP case pretty recently. But from what my friends who do more trademark and copyright say, they're doing great so far.

I'm not really surprised. You don't need the technical expertise for trademark and copyright that you do for patent work. And certainly IP guys have no commodity on research and doc review skills.

-107

And they're back...some of them...while others have disappeared. What the hell is going on here?

101 - midlaw in IP doesn't make a sh!tload of money. Enjoy your mediocre PPPs or mediocre salaries.

126, that makes sense. I just assumed that IP associates were laid off from the comments and Elie's article. But it's true that the memo doesn't actually say that.

-125

Gimme back that filet-o-fish
Gimme that fiiiish
Gimme back that filet-o-fish
Gimme that fiiiish
What if it were you
hanging up on this wall?
If it were you in that sandwich
you wouldn't be laughing at all!

@132 - How many engineers are running the country???

121- Thanks for the personal opinion, for whatever an anonymous opinion is worth. I will stick with the verifiable facts and you to finding a job.

The figures speak for themselves: 'This fiscal year [ending 30 June], Microsoft will spend about $3m on its patent LPO services in India,' says Marty. 'If you estimate that work at US pricing, that's $9.5m worth of work at about $6.5m cost saving. For a company the size of Microsoft that may seem negligible, but for our department, that's a significant sum of money.'

http://www.cpaglobal.com/microsoft_case_study_08

FISH FRY!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fish will be laying off another 75 tomorrow -- www.fishfry.com

The firm memo said "legal staff" were getting canned. Any idea how many of those 35 are lawyers vs. other legal staff at Fish? (i.e. Foreign Patent Specialist, Litigation Technology Analyst, Technology Specialist--these 3 are from the FR website, but I know they also have patent agents as legal staff.)

Also, it would sure be useful if we knew which practice groups got hit. If corporate and white collar defense took the brunt of this onslaught, then many of the anti-IP comments and anti-Fish-IP comments on this board are unfounded. Anyone have any idea?

Does this have something to do with the downturn in IP Lit?

http://www.patentbaristas.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/jdoll-allowance.jpg

The ship be sinking...

72, 132:

I would peg that at more like 98% of current non-IP lawyers at big law.

An even more extreme example would be when considering advanced degrees in the hard sciences. (Masters or PhD's) There are VERY few people with advanced degrees who also have superior litigation skills and who work in Patent Litigation in the computer hardware arena or let's say pharmaceutical patent litigation. Those people are rare, sought after and busy.

The real soft area and risky area to work in is "soft" IP. Trademarks and Copyrights are good when things are busy, but that Philosophy undergrad degree from Princeton looks good on the resume, but it is much easier to acquire than an electrical engineering degree from dozens of state schools in the USA or a Masters or PhD in the medical sciences. Anybody with half a brain can do soft IP work. Not the same when you talk about hard IP.

139, arguably patent people in midlaw do better than in biglaw. PPP doesn't really matter when you work on contingency fee licensing/litigation cases and are pulling in several millions of dollars every year. Your attitude is one of the major problems with the mindset of the average biglaw lawyer - they don't really know how much more money they could make if they just didn't buy into the PPP Koolaid.

142, and the country is just doing great right now isn't it...

Patent prosecution is rolling right now, recession be damned. All you haters in the mindless doc review and legal research (corp and gen lit) practices are just jealous. I've done both general lit, corp and patent lit, and I can tell you hard IP is *much* more interesting than the other biglaw alternatives.

do incoming associates have a start date yet?

nope!

153 - that's harsh. Are most technical background people? Have they started looking for other jobs in smaller boutiques?

Agreed that no start date is harsh.

At what point should someone who had multiple offers start calling the other firms that they worked for?

Have incoming associates been emailing the recruiters asking when they will start ? I'm just floored there is still no start date.

Yes. The recruiters have no idea.

I wonder what the summers are thinking when 3Ls have no start date.... Hopefully many of them are splitting their summer.

What's up with Kenyon, Fitzpatrick, Baker?

157 -- at least you are talking to your recruiters, my V50 firm has not announced yet, and i am pissed. i have had no communication from the firm about my start date, and i am starting to think about looking around. i understand the economy is bad right now, but no communication at this point is disrespectful. please show me a little more regard than total disregard!

159 - We are in the same position. The talk with the recruiters has been entirely initiated by the incoming associates. It's not like they sent us all an email saying "hold on. we're still figuring this out." We have received nothing. Agree that it is disrespectful.

Should we infer that management are a-holes? I understand that they are trying to gauge future demand, but they should at least commit to something: a stipend or something that we could count on.

I can't tell if they are trying to signal me to look for another job, or it's just taking them a while to figure out exact dates and $'s. I wish they would just tell me one way or the other. So frustrating...

132 - I don't know. I saw more than a few engineers who couldn't sniff the top 25% at my school. I'm not saying engineering isn't one the more challenging undergrad majors, because it is. But coming out of engineering in no way assures that law school will somehow be easier for you. Different types of aptitudes are measured. Just like any other law student, you either learn how to play the game, or you don't.

158-can't comment on the others, but agree with above comment: kenyon has been struggling, mainly because it tried to play with the big boys in terms of compensation, but doesn't have the star talent or client roster to wear big boy pants.

have other ip shops announced dates yet?

162 - doesn't Kenyon represent a lot of generic pharmaceutical lit work?

163 - according to the nationwide start date roundup, Fitzpatrick Cella is September and Kenyon is January.

BIG TREE FALL HARD

I can't believe Fish's cruelty to my friends...all that they want is information even if it's bad...bastards.

I imagine the Fish recruiters read these message boards. I wonder what their response is.

apparently the recruiters have no clue what's going on. someone needs to direct firm management to this page!

After many years of hard work, dedication and loyalty they escorted their people out the door as if they were criminals.

Largeip boutique firms are going away. bank on it.

Anyone know if Finnegan is still hiring? They've got an early Nov. start date, so they can't be doing too bad (whereas I have no start date)...I've already had another firm cover my bar expenses...if they can me, they aren't getting that money back!

171 - i just don't believe you.

I would like this thread revised. How is patent litigation doing?