Fish & Richardson Puts One-Third Of Its Incoming Associates On Ice
Last week, Fish & Richardson laid off 120 people. It was the second round of layoffs from the firm this year.
But that wasn’t the end of Fish’s cost cutting measures. Yesterday, the firm effectively “cold offered” one-third of its incoming first year associate class. Another third of the class will start on time, and the rest have been deferred until October 2010. Above the Law has obtained this statement from the firm:
While approximately one-third of our 2009 associate class will start on time, we are deferring the majority of the class to October 2010. About half of those deferred will receive a stipend of $5,000 per month for twelve months, along with reimbursement for health insurance. We have informed the other half of those deferred that, given current economic conditions, it is unlikely that we will have a position for them next fall, and we have advised them to seek other opportunities. That group will receive a stipend of $5,000 per month for six months, along with reimbursement for health insurance, and we will revisit their situations in mid-2010.
Isn’t it a bit late for firms to cold offer incoming associates? It’s almost June, yet a third of the first year class just found out that there were essentially out of a job.
Tipsters weigh in, and an update on how the decision was made, after the jump.
Many tipsters we spoke with were annoyed with Fish & Richardson’s timing:
The incredibly late timing of this announcement is really terrible considering that some are irrevocably married to their respective bar exams.
There are students out there who are sitting for a state bar exam based on the expectation of working at Fish & Richardson. Now that the promise is gone, many people will have to decide if they want to stay in their chosen jurisdiction, or change course — and wait until the February exam in a new state:
[O]bviously, [3Ls with rescinded offers are] the group most f***ed by Fish’s super late decision. Some of us, who were supposed to move to another state, e.g., NY, dont want to take the NY bar now that the legal market in NYC has crashed. Also, given that bar application deadlines have passed for many states, it will also be that much more difficult to find a job and pay for a new bar exam.Fish [has taken] unprofessional, disrespectful, and deplorable actions. This should not go unpunished.
But the firm doesn’t want to look like it is completely cutting these would-be attorneys loose. The Fish & Richardson statement also includes this language:
We are confident that everyone in this class will become outstanding attorneys, and regret that the continuing impact of the recession has made this move necessary. We realize that this deferral will be a hardship for those affected, and we will assist them during this time. In addition to the stipends, the firm will provide assistance in finding public interest or pro bono positions, and will continue to pay their bar exam and review class expenses.We appreciate the level of professionalism our 2009 class has demonstrated as we work with them to adjust to the changed economic landscape.
In response, one tipster had this to say:
[Fish & Richardson] thanked me for my “professionalism.” But I’m not a professional. Fish destroyed my professional career before it even started. Now, I’m just some homeless person covered in my own s**t. Not a professional. … But I guess compared to Fish I still smell pretty good.
Clearly, there is a lot of anger out there. Hopefully, all of the affected attorneys will land on their feet.
Update (3:47 PM): According to a tipster, here is how Fish decided whom to keep, and whom to cut:
F&R made its decision of which 3Ls to cut and which to deffer by weighing a 3L’s technical expertise and the firm’s staffing needs in individual offices, not because of summer performance.
Earlier: Nationwide Layoff Watch: Fish & Richardson Throws Associates/Staff Back
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Fish & Richardson Cuts 30 Staff: Unknown Number of Associates
(258) Comments
Comments
firsty
firsty
That sucks.
Dear Class of 2009, aka the Lost Generation:
Get ready Class of '09, more of you will be fired soon!
Dear Class of 2009, aka the Lost Generation:
Get ready Class of '09, more of you will be fired soon!
Still better than LATHAM, they killed a majority of first years.
You all suck.
Locke Lord Dallas
Isn't this illegal under the trimester framework?
Looks like F&R caved in to the Emperor's Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus. It's definitely not a Minor House anymore.
Guess Howrey and Venable and others will have to step up to the plate.
If anyone is still interested in Fish, my associate Al Neri could take you out fishing. It would be just as fun.
Wow, what a horrible, horrible firm. I don't understand the circumstances that make you wait until mid-May for this kind of BS. Not only do they wait this long, but they take the most drastic steps of any large firm so far. My heart goes out to anyone finding out they don't have a job during the first week of BARBRI. Fish and Richardson won't be able to recruit any decent talent for a generation, nor do they deserve to.
I got "put on ice" for a year...any suggestions for what I should do? Is anyone hiring IP lit associates these days?
What a bunch of whiny bitches... hell, Fish is essentially paying all their bar fees and review costs and giving them essentially 30k to look for another job.
guess what entitled douces, companies layoff people all the freaking time. Welcome to the real world...and in the real world, very few people that are laidoff get the severance you are getting.
Guess what also? There are a hell of a lot of people without jobs at graduation that are paying their own bar exam expenses and don't have the 30k go-away-pay. so to Fish's rescinded offer douces, STFU!
CWT NY 05 female associates still going strong as ever.
14 must be ttt who can't find a job.
What's with all of the Dune references in here?
-Mua' Debe
Anyone else notice the comments have really tapered off now that the 3L's are in BarBri?
14, stfu. you're obviously a TTT who graduated without a job. these people were actually good attorneys, and didn't deserve to end up like you. they also turned down other offers to go to this rancid toilet.
I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the partnership decided who would be cut. What criteria did they use, if any?
glad i never even called them for my callback!
There's gotta be some kind of "promissory estoppel" claim available to these guys, right? I'm looking at Section 90 of the restatement, and it looks like it's totally on point.
What's with all of the Dune references in here?
-Mua' Debe
The IP associates were laid off because they were behind in patenting Duncan Idaho's chrome orbs.
18,
nah, not TTT...but if it makes you feel better and your other "you must be TTT" mean girls, then believe whatever you want and continue your lameass school yard taunts
how do you know they were good attorneys? I am guessing they never practiced a lick of law in their life.
like I said, people get laidoff, its effin life.
What did I have to do to be one of the incoming associates starting this October -- work in Boston? I'd like to know who didn't get pushed/fired as it relates to practice groups/offices.
Nice that the 3Ls with rescinded offers are getting a larger "severance" package than most of the associates Fish laid off this year.
I got laid off with 2 months severance. I'm a 2000 graduate.
Nice to know that a bunch of kids who haven't even been licensed to practice law yet are getting six months' subsidy to find new employment.
And, by the way, jobs are more plentiful for junior associates than senior, for all those who are bemoaning the plight of the laid off first years.
This blows serious balls. Here's $60k -- sorry about the other $100k you thought you were going to make...but don't worry, once you've forgotten everything you learned in law school, you are welcome to come work for us and compete against current 2L's who are fresher and didn't get a cattle prod shoved up their ass. Happy limping.
I got laid off with 2 months severance. I'm a 2000 graduate.
Nice to know that a bunch of kids who haven't even been licensed to practice law yet are getting six months subsidy to find new employment.
And, by the way, jobs are more plentiful for junior associates than senior, for all those who are bemoaning the plight of the laid off first years.
15 & 18 and every other douce that will toss out "TTT" as their silly retort
nah, not TTT...but if it makes you feel better and your other "you must be TTT" mean girls, then believe whatever you want and continue your lame ass school yard taunts
how do you know they were good attorneys? I am guessing they never practiced a lick of law in their life.
like I said, people get laidoff, its effin life.
This is just one of the most horrible things a firm could have done. And to do it right when most of these 3Ls are about to graduate, a time that should be exciting... really low thing to do.
You suck 14
I've notice that my secretary screams less when I use lube during anal intercourse.
Bangin in Boston
27/29, your 2 months severance is probably still more than their $5k/month for 6 months -- $30k.
$5,000 per month and health care reimbursement. Poor kids... what suffering they must endure now because of this evil firm. I'm sure the people born starving in huts in Haiti feel really, really bad for them. And I seriously doubt the last "tipster" is "destroyed", "homeless", and "covered in his own ****." This kind of self-centered greed that ignores those who *really* are screwed is the driving force behind why the downturn happened in the first place.
Elie:
Doesn't the article state "While approximately one-third of our 2009 associate class will start on time, we are deferring the majority of the class to October 2010." That means that 2/3 are put on ice, not 1/3. 1/3 still gets to start on time.
18- none of these people is an attorney.
This is a sign of things to come. I expect more firms will follow suit. Specifically, firms that *only* deferred until January will call their incoming associates and tell them that "it is unlikely we will be able to start you in January, so we suggest you start looking elsewhere."
The question is: will they make these calls before or after the bar?
This is completely deplorable action on the firm's part. Advice to Fish should be the same as the advice to Chrysler --- "be a f*ing person."
I'm an attorney, now fellatio.
1/3 are put on ice and 1/3 are burned. 1/3 are fine
36, the "put on ice" comment refers to the 1/3 (that's 50% of (1-1/3); see me after class if you still don't get it) whose offers became cold offers.
HTH.
34 --
Not a chance. I was at a mid-sized firm not in New York, which while big enough to have paid me for at least 3 months (which seems to be relatively standard), was too cheap to do it. Even if they had paid me 3 months, it would still be less than $30K.
This is completely deplorable action on the firm's part. Advice to Fish should be the same as the advice to Chrysler --- "be a f*ing person."
The problem with the NBA today is that the young guys don't want to be coached. Also, there are just too many bad teams. I mean, really bad. Almost nobody saw the best basketball that was ever played, which was in 1992 when the Dream Team was practicing for Barcelona and on the warmup tour. The late night bacharach games in Monte Carlo cost me a fortune!!!
Fat as a whale.
Dumb as an ox.
3500 sq feet
Lexis in my box.
Texas Honeymoon
36, half of the deferreds (so 1/3 of the total) are cold offered. Hence, "put on ice." Like fish! Cuz it's Fish! get it? So clever.
Give me back that fillet of Fish! ! !
11 - I feel for these people. This is terrible and not the way things should have been handled. But to suggest there will be any lasting stigma attached to any actions taken in today's market is ridiculous. Firms right now have free reign. They can do anything they want and people will flock back when the market returns. What choice will they have.
bar exam courses just started. if they'd announced this one month ago, people could have scrambled to take exams in their home states.
what are the odds that sometime while this move has been considered Fish was making statements to the 3Ls about the fall start? statements that were made with no reasonable basis for believing them to be true, know that the listener would rely on the statement? pretty high, right?
I'm still missing the part where firing someone who has never yet worked for you (assuming the summer associate gig doesn't involve actual work) is somehow vastly more deplorable than firing someone who HAS actually worked for you.
19,
This is what it's like to be a fly on the wall at the meeting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK0cUv3ba-o
Fish & Richardson's actions are prudent. The economy has not hit bottom; only the rate of descent has slowed. The demand for legal services will not increase until the second quarter of 2010.
Dear fired 3Ls,
Since you haven't started working yet, you are not making your employer any money. They have no legal or moral obligation to pay you anything to make you go away. Be grateful you're not getting zero dollars in severance.
What does TTT mean?
Hmm..... I can scratch one firm off my list of potential (summer) employers for 2010.
"Fish [has taken] unprofessional, disrespectful, and deplorable actions. This should not go unpunished. "
LOL!
of all the dick moves, this is the dickiest.
Must have chosen to layoff those with backgrounds in liberal arts, chemistry, biology, mechanical/aero/chem engineering.
Now I'm being called upon to sever associates who never got a chance to start. Don't worry, you will only feel a slight burning sensation on the back of your neck.
54 - fuck you. Tell me, friend, were you ever a 3L eager to start your career? Or did you magically become a 5th year (bitter) associate?
Fuck off.
i can't decide what i hate more. the dune references, or the promissory estoppel references, or the ass lobstering?
"Fish [has taken] unprofessional, disrespectful, and deplorable actions. This should not go unpunished. "
LOL!
Fish & Richardson and Sonnenschein are doing their best to come out of this recession looking like shit.
Fish commends the incoming associates for their professionalism but lacks the same.
This really sucks for the people laid off. Hopefully the stipend will keep them afloat long enough to find their next job.
54's got a point, but it does suck to have the rug pulled out from under you like this.
48: what if it were you hanging up on this wall?
48: what if it were you hanging up on this wall?
33-Nice move. He will definitely be more comfortable.
You're welcome!
51/54/other douchebags,
New associates....
(a) ... didn't go behind your (F&R) back and spend the last year finding another landing spot. The commitment goes both ways. The new associates held up their end.
(b) ... sat for the bar exam based on your (F&R) offer.
I get there's genocide in Dafur and whatnot, but sitting for the bar exam based solely on a one year-old offer of employment is a tremendous leap of faith. One that futures hires won't be stupid enough make with Douche & Richardson.
Any suggestions on what I can do for a year? Who's hiring IP Associates?
Louis Zaccareli never had this problem.
Elie -
Please remove this entire comment thread and disable it if possible - SOMEONE LOST A JOB. It is so inappropriate to make off-color jokes here.
What is wrong with people?
What website do you think you're visiting #73?
33-Nice move. He will definitely be more comfortable.
you're an idiot, 73
If this happens to me, my life is ruined.
There is no way that I can pay back this debt.
Elie,
Please never again post on or make reference to those who have lost their jobs. It is highly inappropriate and unprofessional to discuss the livelihood of others, especially when it doesn't exist anymore. Also, please delete all comments that discuss or reference layoffs, firings, or the economy. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Your Readers
i meant, you're an idiot, 74
73-
They didn't so much "lose a job" . Tey lost the promise of a job in the future.
Am I the only one that smells a restatement section 90 claim?
Why are they paying any of these dopes severance? They were never employees and never contributed!
It's wasteful and wrong. I never wanted a handout.
74, 73 was being sarcastic. It's ok...I'm sure most people missed that.
-21
i meant, you're an idiot, 79
80-
yeah. it's one thing to terminate. it's another to make promises, express and implied, when you know internally that you're either going to cut the jobs or that there's a high chance of it. employment at will isn't a defense to that.
YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS
- NOT SKADDEN SECURE
Who wants a Fresca?
what's going on at Ropes?
I'm really curious how they decided who got canned and who got to come. Any thoughts?
Also, it seems to me that the reason this sucks even worse than getting laid of as a first year is these poor folks have nothing on their resumes to look for new jobs. Even 1st year associates at big firms who get canned for economic reasons have the proof on their resumes that they were big law worthy and therefore have some hope of making it back. We in the "lost class" of 2009 who don't get to ever start with our firms may be long term screwed for big law (not that that is necessarily the end of the world or even a bad thing for all people).
I completely understand the entitlement argument and the "these people have never worked, why do they deserve anything" argument. But remember when you were in their shoes. You worked hard all through school, you followed the well worn and time honored tradition of OCI and summer associate program, you got your big law offer and thought you didn't need to worry about job hunting for at least a few years and now the rug is being pulled out from under you at the worst possible moment.
at any rate, good luck to these folks.
Laugh all you want, but if this happens to me, I will sue my firm for misrepresentation. I know my law, and I think there is a decent chance my specific case would (at least) make it to trial.
And yes, I recognize this will ruin my career; but guess what, it's over for me in any case if they revoke my offer.
Like others, I'm not overwhelmed with sympathy for a group of people who just got offered $5k/month to do absolutely nothing.
That said, the firm's decision to delay such an announcement is grotesque. Truly poor form.
Hey guys. Do you like fishsticks?
Whoa, brutal.
This firm must not be long for the world to engage in such a reprehensible act.
71 - Passed the patent bar? If you haven't, that might be the first thing to do.
No one is hiring right now. But we (smaller IP firm - 100 attorneys) have actually had an uptick in work but aren't sure if it will last. Our rates are considerably lower ($350/h from junior partners) than F&R so this might actually be a genuine rise in work for us.
** I guess, look for smaller firms that don't bill at ridiculous rates. Patent and trademark prosecution aren't rocket science. The difference in quality of work from a mildly competent attorney and an F&R douche nozzle isn't as great as you might think. Companies might be catching on and looking to cut costs. This advice doesn't apply to litigation or technology transactions.
** Firms that do work for defense contractors might be a good bet. The military-industrial boondoggle isn't likely to end anytime soon.
p.s: The salary structure is no different from Big Law. First years make $160k and we haven't deferred anyone. The downside is that partners don't pull in much higher than $500k, if that. However, the greater parity between associate and partner pay may explain the genuinely friendly atmosphere. Either that, or science geeks are just agreeable people.
Good luck.
I'll take a Fresca; thanks.
My heart goes out to the 3Ls who have had this rug pulled out from under them, but they have a pretty not-bad parachute for the fall. There are MANY, MANY folks - legal and non-legal - who are not getting what these 3Ls are getting. And the truth, as anybody who is a REAL attorney knows, is that they aren't battle-tested and they aren't making the firm money. First years are virtually useless for their entire first years because law school does not teach you to practice law - it is not DeVry and you do not graduate with a vocation. You graduate (hopefully) with a job that will teach you your vocation.
So without sounding insensitive, trust me - this could have ended a lot more dickishly. They were under no obligation to offer anyone anything. It sucks... but it could suck a LOT worse.
70,
Yeah those poor future associates who have to pay for bar prep classes in a state they suddenly don't want to practice in.....oh that's right, F&R is paying for the bar prep.
Yeah F&R was really crappy for doing this, but don't get all over-dramatic about some folks getting a bar stipend and some "severence" for 6 months. Imagine how the folks who never got a job offer who have to pay for bar courses on their own dime. The F&R laid off should just take the bar exam where they are already slated. If they are still jobless, they can study for another bar exam in the state they prefer (since they don't have a job anyways).
It's rediculous to think this firm will have problems down the road hiring new associates out of law school. Law grads are like partners in that they'll do anything to make a dollar, particularly a lot of dollars. Firms that lay off first years will do just fine when it comes to recruiting down the road. In fact, law students better get ready for the new world order in which law students no longer get treated to summers of fun followed by high salaries for doing next to nothing, other than showing up for work. The worm has turned, and you better get used to eating worms.
I am sure a majority of the third mentioned in this article voted for Obama. They have only themselves to blame for their misfortune.
Pass the patent bar and the state bar won't matter; you will be a patent agent. Then when you pass a state bar (doesn't matter which one), you will be a patent attorney.
scared 3L lol
you know your law . . . its all over for you if you get rescinded...lol
take it easy buddy. rescinded offer = terrible, but not end of your career/livelihood
97 - Fair enough. Firms should no longer count on new associates showing up for work since they'll have a good year for find a replacement offer. Obviously that's not a bad thing now. We'll see when things pick up.
I'd like my Fresca warmed to near-boiling, then poured down Elie's size 42-waist pants.
61/89 - You are suffering from being associated with the weakest pool of potential lawyers to have come through the law school ranks in at least 30 years. I don't know if you are one of the exceptional cases who could have cut it 5-10 years ago, or part of the vast majority of '09 graduates who don't measure up to previous graduates, but either way your options are limited. You have my sympathy and my sincere best wishes.
103 - what are you talking about
Frescas are gay.
96
Lazy dumb-shits like you who didn't work hard enough to get an offer through summer employment should shut the fuck up.
"Imagine how the folks who never got a job offer who have to pay for bar courses on their own dime."?
The reason we are mad is because we worked our asses off in some type of reliance that the recruiting system we bought into would work.
We bought a defective product, we have a right to be angry.
103 - I don't see why the pool should be weaker now than past years. Sure, the proportion of graduates from shitfirams might have increased, but NUMBER of graduates from non-shitfarms has stayed the same. I don't see why 2009's T-14 grads are any less capable than T-14 grads from a decade ago.
50 and all the others pointing out the bar exam issue
Well, yeah sure, it sucks to lose your offer and to have already committed to taking a bar upon the premise there was a job in that state.
But at least these former F&C offerees are getting 30k and their first bar exam completely paid for. they at least have the financial means and time to take a second bar in another state...a benefit that grads that didn't have jobs at all upon graduation would have
105-
True, "Frescas" (i.e., plural) are gay. Having one Fresca is very hetero. Unless you drink the Fresca after performing fellatio on another man.
I'm a lurker on this blog, and was struck driving in yesterday driving into work (corporate job) that the strange meeting that suddenly appeared on my blackberry could be a layoff. (It wasn't). But I spent a good amount of time imagining what I would do if it was. Shut down totally most like.
For those lurking out there, this memo from a good firm in a good market positon with good leadership is an example yet of how successful people become complacent in the face of all evidence to the contrary -- please, I hope all lurkers are engaged in the career equivalent of defensive driving and looking for bail out options now while they still have income. No matter how safe you feel, how confident you are, where you clerked etc, please take at your spending, your long term goals and how much anxiety you can live with. Best luck to all again.
This is a response to 89 and other comments by overly dramatic "Scared 3L." Pull yourself together. Your debt is not going to come crashing down on you all at once. Consolidate your loans, and you'll be looking for a way to pay a few hundred bucks a month. At least you know (or should know) that you can't buy a new house/take out a second mortgage/commit to school tuition for your kids before you undertake that sort of actually debilitating debt, unlike a lot of working lawyers who had no such warning and now find themselves in truly dire straits. On the other hand, if you have already made these types of large financial commitments, then you will have to live with the consequences of acting on a peverse sense of entitlement.
108
STFU. 30k? Give me a break. That is one year of student loans payments.
Face it. The legal economy will NEVER recover. It will just not happen. We are all screwed.
106, aka entitled douche, you did not buy a defective product. In this analogy, you were the seller, on a layaway plan, and the buyer doesn't want to buy what you have to offer anymore. Now you have to sell your product to someone else, just like what stores deal with every day. You should be glad the buyer isn't asking for a refund of what it has already paid (summer associate salaries).
74 = UPenn State
113 licks man penis
I'm a lurker on this blog, and was struck driving in yesterday driving into work (corporate job) that the strange meeting that suddenly appeared on my blackberry could be a layoff. (It wasn't). But I spent a good amount of time imagining what I would do if it was. Shut down totally most like.
For those lurking out there, this memo from a good firm in a good market positon with good leadership is an example yet of how successful people become complacent in the face of all evidence to the contrary -- please, I hope all lurkers are engaged in the career equivalent of defensive driving and looking for bail out options now while they still have income. No matter how safe you feel, how confident you are, where you clerked etc, please take at your spending, your long term goals and how much anxiety you can live with. Best luck to all again.
One way to stop all these promissory estoppel trolls would be for firms to sue individual students for being too stupid to work as attorneys.
This is in addition to being fired.
I'm a lurker on this blog, and was struck driving in yesterday driving into work (corporate job) that the strange meeting that suddenly appeared on my blackberry could be a layoff. (It wasn't). But I spent a good amount of time imagining what I would do if it was. Shut down totally most like.
For those lurking out there, this memo from a good firm in a good market positon with good leadership is an example yet of how successful people become complacent in the face of all evidence to the contrary -- please, I hope all lurkers are engaged in the career equivalent of defensive driving and looking for bail out options now while they still have income. No matter how safe you feel, how confident you are, where you clerked etc, please take at your spending, your long term goals and how much anxiety you can live with. Best luck to all again.
115 - Is there any other type??
Give me back that delay o'Fish!
Give me that Fish!
What if it were you who had no offer at all?
If you had no offer at all you wouldn't be cryin' for fall!
Look at these hacks! Hate it for those laid off, but it makes me happy to see these hack firms kickin' the bucket. No layoffs, no salary freeze, no salary reductions at CP&S. And a bunch of summer's spending their salary on hookers! Nothin but the best here in Boston!
at this rate they should just throw out the whole 2L SA offer model and just going forward hire 3Ls and recent grads on a just in time basis. Its rather disgusting that one recession that could be already over and one that is arguably more mild that the recession of the early 80s has destroyed the BIGLAW hiring model so.
Did this nonsense happen in 82? in 92?
Fish and Richardson HR folks hard at work in the comments section here.
Who else would care so much about these 3L's who just lost their job offers, other than other 3L's of course.
- another 3L
at this rate they should just throw out the whole 2L SA offer model and just going forward hire 3Ls and recent grads on a just in time basis. Its rather disgusting that one recession that could be already over and one that is arguably more mild that the recession of the early 80s has destroyed the BIGLAW hiring model so.
Did this nonsense happen in 82? in 92?
Dear 3Ls:
ALL IS LOST!! ALL IS LOST!!
Best regards,
The Legal Community
I'm a lurker on this blog, and was struck driving in yesterday driving into work (corporate job) that the strange meeting that suddenly appeared on my blackberry could be a layoff. (It wasn't). But I spent a good amount of time imagining what I would do if it was. Shut down totally most like.
For those lurking out there, this memo from a good firm in a good market positon with good leadership is an example yet of how successful people become complacent in the face of all evidence to the contrary -- please, I hope all lurkers are engaged in the career equivalent of defensive driving and looking for bail out options now while they still have income. No matter how safe you feel, how confident you are, where you clerked etc, please take at your spending, your long term goals and how much anxiety you can live with. Best luck to all again.
120, fish penis.
A bunch of fishies came to my firm waiving $10,000 recruitment checks to try to get me and my buds to join them. How's that working out for you now, fishies?
Boo-fucking-hoo. Former Heller incoming first year here, wishing I'd gotten a $30k parting gift.
124,
I don't know but you can be sure that 10 or even 20 years from now no one will ask the same question about this year that you asked about 1992.
I'm not at all saying that Fish won't be able to recruit in the future. I am saying that those recruits will know that Fish dumped some of their offerees after promises of a job. The Internet now records this crap.
If future recruits have a choice of another firm at the same salary, I don't see why one would pick this dump.
129-
Here's a job offer: if you are a girl, I'll pay you $5 for the privilege of touching your boobies. If you are a guy, I'll pay you $5 to wash my car.
130 - people will still pick Fish because every firm will end up dumping (at least some of) their 3L's.
Mark this post -- almost every V-100 firm will revoke offers in one form or another.
93--
Interesting thoughts. If you want to talk about entitlement, why is it that partners at AmLaw 100 firms think they're entitled to $800,000-$1,000,000 draws?
If partners made, oh, just 3 times what associates made, as 93's firm apparently does, maybe we'd be a lot better off.
I agree that people who get $50K to look for another job are much better off than Joe the Fixer who gets two weeks' severance once his manufacturing company sends its jobs to China, but lawyer jobs are not as transferrable as blue collar (or even non professional white collar) jobs, particularly when lawyers have to study and pass a bar examination in a particular state. It's bad PR if nothing else.
133, partners are entitled to as much as they want because they own the business.
132,
I agree that your conclusion follows your premises, but I disagree that "almost every V100 will revoke in some manner."
Name V100s that have revoked in this shit economy. I'm guessing, what, like 3? 97 more envisions an economic world not even close to what it is now. And the recession is not exactly new. We're almost a year into it.
Mmmmm... I love working for the federal government.
When you factor in student loan repayment, cheaper benefits, etc., I'm earning more than 80% of what I did with BigLaw, but am only working 55% as many hours.
The only way I'm losing my job is if I get fired for cause, or if there is a RIF (Reduction in Force).
Plenty of people are smart enough to get jobs with BigLaw. Only a few of us distinguished ourselves by being smart enough to get out before it collapsed.
Miserable at BigLaw? Face it, those that got out before the crash on their own terms are smarter than you (or maybe just braver, or perhaps both).
Sucks for the new associates, though. They didn't have a chance to make moves like that to protect themselves. I have nothing but sympathy for them.
Partners are allowed to take home whatever they feel like - that's why they have the juice and you do not. That's why you kiss their ring and hope one day to have one of your very own. That's why you put yourself through all of this. First years have nothing, are nothing and can do nothing. They have nothing to offer other than undaunted enthusiasm and (possibly) not yet being fat, ugly and blindingly awful to look at.
3Ls... the world needs ditch diggers too.
I totally agree that TTT is so last year, as is RSP; I would say Fish should have used NSD and resolved the whole thing through QND.
Up hear on Bay all Associates are on Ice, but I think we use the term differently in Canada.
Bay Street is Awesome!
There are two types of people in the world... the type that divide the world into two types of people, and the kind that don't.
I also have a policy that you can never - ever - have too much cream cheese in your house.
136,
Another BigLaw refugee loving life in the federal government.
I leave every day at 4:30, and I get 4 weeks of vacation every year, and I use ALL of it EVERY year.
A lot of the young TLT is looking to go straight into the government (the prestige/competitiveness of our applicants has been going up for years and now easily rivals what my friends on BigLaw hiring committees are seeing).
Smart TLT that wants a humane work/life balance is going straight to the government.
BigLaw can have the greedy TLT (and the entitled/connected pricks that pretend to be TLT, but are really just dead weight).
-Misses Nothing From BigLaw
Agree with 111 re Scared 3Ls entitled attitude. Calm down. 3Ls are far from the the worst group hit by this economic down turn.
geez, how do they pick who gets the axe?
3Ls - I suggest you start drinking heavily.
You'd better listen to him. He's pre-med.
142,
3Ls are easily the group of ATTORNEYS hardest hit by the Bush Depression.
Other industires have it worse, but nobody in our industry does.
I've got nothing but sympathy for the 3L's.
I just love it when GULC graduates come to me all sweaty and desperate.
And I turn them down.
~Big Law Refugee and Now in Government
P.S. Seriously, we're getting at least 3-400 applications per position. We can afford to be VERY picky.
93 -
I actually agree with 134 and 137. Without the partner who brings in business associates have nothing to do. If a rainmaker pulling $5M can brining in business that pays my salary I'm not complaining.
The reason for the lower disparity at our firm is that the market rate for top IP associates is $160k and we're not crazy about getting second-rate talent. After all today's associates are tomorrow's rainmakers. Also, we mostly do patent prosecution and very little (or no) litigation. Patent prosecution doesn't have the ability to generate insane profits like other departments do. Most full-service firms only have IP departments to attract business for their other departments.
Not to make everything sound rosy, but this life isn't for everyone. If you like/need the thrill of Big Law, IP at a small firm isn't for you. Also the potential for making out like bandit when you become partner isn't there. However, the hours are great (1900 total, not billable) and predictable. Living is comfortable, but not doing-a-line-of-coke-every-night comfortable. If you're excited more by the technology and a little less by the law, it could be a good fit.
- 93
93, 147
Gee, I dunno. You make it sound like IP work is, well, ... a little bit boring.
Yes, I'm sure that you'll make an excellent recruiter for your firm.
#21:
FOR HE IS THE KWISATZ HADERACH
145 is correct. The mid-levels/senior associates are acting like douches by telling 3L's to calm down. The 3L's are fucked.
No way 145. It's way worse to have to look your family who is presently depending on your income in the eyes and tell them you've lost your job than it is to lose a job offer when, unless you've been financially irresponsible, you don't have the weight of numerous monetary obligations in addition to student loans.
146,
I love it when the mid level associates apply trying to get out of BigLaw at the same time as everyone else. We're also getting hundreds of applications for every position.
All the miserable BigLaw associates just have to face that they were stupid and waited too long. Now you're trying to sell into a Buyer's market.
Partners should also realize that they've shown themselves to be greedy unreliable fucks, and lots of the best candidates are going to choose the superior quality of work, greater freedom/responsibility in formulating strategy, and better work/life balance that working for the government provides.
14
Despite the fact that you have a job, you appear to lack excitement. In short, you lack joie de vivre.
Perhaps you should do a night out with coke and hookers every now and then and liven it up a little bit. Give the lie to the statement that IP lawyers are staid and boring.
If you're looking at gubmint for a job, dont' bother applying for the creme de la creme (Justice/Treasury) unless you're top three and in the top 25 (to be safe 10) percent.
151,
Your response makes no sense. Both 3L's and current associates often have families (and generally the family members have eyes).
What does that have to do with associates being worse off than 3L's? The family thing isn't even a distinction. Everyone that isn't being funded by mommy and daddy has numerous financial obligations other than student loans.
You're a moron.
Do all the widdle bitty law students need help now that they have no jobs? Do they need their mommies to kiss their boo-boos too?
155 - clearly you are not a working lawyer. one day you will understand just how inappropriate this 3L outrage stemming from entitlement really is.
i'm in the purgatory group (i.e., deferred for 1 year). i consider myself lucky to have the stipend given the state of the economy but this is still scary. and, clearly, the timing is awful.
if we have to compete with fresh grads and some experienced laid-off associates one year from now, we're at a real disadvantage. firms will have a greater incentive to hire 2010 since that will have a greater impact on future recruiting because of the law school grapevine. it seems we were unlucky to graduate in '09 and unlucky to have passed up offers at places that seem to be weathering the storm better than Fish thus far.
hopefully things bounce back sooner rather than later. in the meantime, taco bell has a pretty sweet value menu. see you there.
154,
The Justice Department as creme de la creme? Bwahahaha! After the Bush fiasco and Alberto Gonzalez and Michael Mukasey, they probably have the second worst reputation in the government behind only the CIA.
Also, Treasury is decent, but SEC > Treasury.
Park and Wildlife Service > Department of "Justice"
157 - any suggestions for we 3L's oh wise one? If our offers get pulled, how are we not worse off than current associates who AT LEAST HAD THE CHANCE TO START THEIR FUCKING CAREERS!
I hate you all so so much.
kanye west loves fishsticks
Justice is being rapidly overhauled by Holder with the assistance of careerists. It is hiring but it is very restrictive as I pointed out.
Regents Law School or GULC need not apply.
SEC is not hiring. It has been talking about hiring but nothing has been done. The SEC did a marvelous job with Madoff, didn't it?
Dumbass.
Justice>SEC any day.
Just hang on folks. Barack Obama will get us out of this mess and all of us will be able to find jobs; even those like me that are in the bottom of their class in law school.
Wow, Fish's implosion continues.
So glad I took the K&K offer.
kanye west hates twitter and paparazzi photogs
160, with an attitude like that, you won't last long, even if you manage to hang on to your precious offer. There's a thing called seniority, and you should really learn to respect it. Trust me, it's in your best interests. See Quinn Emanuel first year email disaster if you have any doubt that there is a hierarchy and assuming you still have a job, you're at the bottom.
Scared 3L:
You're better off because you don't know what you've even lost. You're free because you have nothing else to lose. People who started their careers and then had the rug pulled out already are in the golden shackles. Far more than you even know spend everything they make and suddenly when they don't have their 200k job anymore, their 4k a month apartment doesn't seem so affordable and that second baby on the way induces palpatations.
At least as a law student, you shouldn't have been spending what you did not have yet. This is your chance to really decide if this life is what you want and if it is not, you've been ass-kicked into exploring other options.
If it is, trust me, it's a long life and doors will open again somewhere, sometime. This is not doomsday. It's a setback.
Those who are four, five, ten years in and now have nothing to show for it because they thought the gravy train would go on forever... trust me, it's much harder to go back to ramen than it is to just stay on it.
162,
Department of "Justice" is a joke. That's why attorneys at other government agencies settle all of their cases. We know if it goes to litigation we'll end up watching DoJ drive it into a wall.
"Justice" is absolutely packed with Bush hires from 4th Tier "law schools" like Bob Jones.
I'll tell you what, point out the most recent huge success at Department of "Justice".
We'll all be here listening to the deafening silence.
One rumor in the patent bar community is that Fish lost a MAJOR technology company client.
And these look like REVOKED offers in the text, not "cold" offers. If true, the feeling among the ExecPartners in all firms is that Fish has handled this horribly (across the board).
Were the rescinded offers concentrated in any particular office. practice area, or technical background?
168
It's kind of early in the game to deride the Obama Justice Department, isn't it?
That said, it is starting to be active after such a long period of torpor.
http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2009/05/21/the-daily-docket-justice-department-probes-lehman-execs/?mod=rss_WSJBlog
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/navy-justice-department-investigating-bidrigging-case
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-20-2009/0005030321&EDATE=
http://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=21377
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/us/19detain.html?em
http://www.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUSN2053485320090520
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/21/detainee.trial/
http://www.pionline.com/article/20090521/DAILYREG/905219986
http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=a93f4f7b-63ae-4a91-ba29-94dba4b15cab
http://www.accountingweb.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=107584&d=883&h=884&f=882&dateformat=%o%20%B%20%Y
This shows how prominent and important the DOJ is compared to your little counsel section in the Department of Commerce.
Eat shit.
The ship be sinking...
52,
Great selection, but I prefer this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQm5qxD3CJY
If you drink Fresca then you are a gay fish.
To the poster earlier who asked how they decided who to defer, who to fire and who to start on time. The answer is almost certainly based on the technical backgrounds or lack thereof of the incoming class. People without technical backgrounds will be the first to go. People with advanced degrees or degrees in something highly marketable like EE or CS will be kept on. They can do the work of soft IP lawyers when times are slow.
Why is CS a highly marketable degree? It didn't even qualify for the pat bar exam not too long ago. It is nowhere near as difficult as EE, CE, ChemE or physics.
Fishy, fishy, where are you?
Only I know.
Fresca is 'mo. Shasta on the other hand...
I'm so sick of these attorneys saying how much worse it is for them to get laid off than it is for 3Ls. Before I went to law school, I never lived beyond my means. Then I racked up outrageous debt going to law school. Then I quickly paid off all that debt as an attorney. I have not been in debt trouble since working as an attorney and would be fine for a good long while if I were laid off now. Most BigLaw attorneys that have been working for at least 5 years that cannot withstand at least a year of no income have been irresponsible with their money and have no cause to complain. These 3Ls that have lost their employment that was promised to them (and gave up other opportunities for employment) and have not had a chance to work down their six figure debt have every reason to be upset. Any attorney saying otherwise should be ashamed of himself and Fish & Richardson should be ashamed of itself.
179 - any BigLaw attorney who does not have financial freedom to be unemployed has nobody to blame but themself for financial irresponsibility? What color is the sky in your world? Does it rain doughnuts and fudge too? Some people have spouses, children and even parents that they need to support financially. Paying off student loan debt might have been the only thing you needed to do, but not so for many others. Thanks for the personal finance lesson though, Suze Orman.
Also, very nice with ending that any attorney should be ashamed of HIMself. Perhaps you should be ashamed of YOURself.
There's so much love in here. That's why I keep coming to ATL.
180, don't get married or have kids if you can't ensure financial security for your spouse and kids for a year or two of your unemployment.
That is all.
180 - How does having children, spouses, or parents to support make it ok to live outside your means? I had the same responsibilities prior to and after law school. Of course there are extraordinary circumstances (such as a child that requires massive medical bills due to a condition) but that's why I wrote MOST and not ANY.
Well, well, well,
This Board seems to have changed a bit in the last few months. I remember just a short time ago when gov't attorneys were scoffed at and told that their children would have to go to "public schools" (My God! The carnage!)
I also remember a number of posts about how JDUnderground was full of "losers" "malcontents" "failures", etc.
A little recession and *poof* that Assistant City Attorney job that retires in 30 years with a full pension and health care doesn't look that "TTT" anymore.
Strange how the much-derided L4L at JDUnderground now sounds more like a legal industry prophet than a hack who couldn't cut it.
The idea that producing reams and reams of paper is some sort of "value added" service worth thousands of billable hours at absurd rates seems to be going the way of GM.
But let me guess "Big Poppa Biglaw" will take care of all of you ATL kids with 160K jobs...... so you can continue to mock gov't attorneys and ID work.
hey 179... shortly after becoming an attorney you paid off your studen loan debt? that's a neat trick. I got laid off as a 3rd yr and put basically every spare penny I could toward saving and paying off my loans...maybe you could help me figure out how to live more within my means, since I can't remotely afford to be unemployed for a year but it sounds like you've got the secret.
182, what the hell planet are you living on? How many people do you think could meet that criteria?????? Hmmm...that would be one way to keep the population in check though...
167 -
You're an idiot. Poor management of personal finances by current associates doesn't mean 3L's are better off than them. They had the opportunity to pay off a significant portion of their debt during their several years in biglaw. Whether they chose to or not is irrelevant to scared 3L's point. And btw that crap about not knowing what they've lost is retarded. Everyone knows what's at stake and what they're working for.
Government attorneys are still hacks. Financial collapses still can't cure stupid.
180 - no one types himself/herself... you know what was meant, douche
Here, here 187. Scared 3L should be scared. I mean, he's screwed - but to try to reduce his abject terror by the soothing words of "walk it off, kid - you'll get 'em next time" is simply not cool.
That being said...walk it off kid. You'll get 'em next time. I just realized there isn't really much else or better to say.
Whatever. That place was dead anyway.
180 - give us your salary, expense break down, loan payment schedules, and amounts put in savings and then we can tell you where you went wrong
I like hearing from the government attorneys. There's nothing more inspiring than settling for mediocrity.
191 - Word around town was they were highly dysfunctional and that they had a few people from Boston move here to get the place in order. Some hilarious stories. If an offer to their one of their California offices got pulled, consider yourself lucky.
They were a good source for cocktail party gossip. I will miss them if they go under (highly unlikely). Maybe they can hire the Minnesota lesbians, DB from S&C or headlock guy from wherever.
I am neither a 3L nor someone directly affected in any way by Fish's action, but this situation deserves comment. While the firm may deserve some credit for providing at least temporary financial support to those affected, the firm has handled the timing of this action very poorly. If Fish had taken this action sooner, the affected 3Ls would have been able to go back to their law schools' career development offices for assistance while they were still in school and still on campus. By waiting until the end of the academic year and graduation to rescind its prior offers, Fish has effectively deprived them of this opportunity. If Fish acts with this little consideration for people who it was until recently prepared to welcome as employees and colleagues, how thoughtlessly does it treat its clients?
Federal government attorneys are top notch (no opinion on state/local gov't attys only b/c I have no first hand knowledge. Not a backhanded insult).
We've been getting BigLaw refugees for years and years, thanks to the broken BigLaw system.
I hate to say it, but if federal government attorneys are hacks, then your mentor BigLaw partners are dismal frauds. We wipe the floor with them the overwhelming majority of the time.
BigLaw associates, I can't say... you see, dealing with us is so important that all our calls and interactions are with your bosses.
Enjoy that Lexus. I'm in my Accord heading home at 4:30 every day, and I take all of my vacation every year.
Thanks for the support guys. I fully recognize how screwed I am, which is why I am literally freaking out every second of every day. I am looking for other employment, but it is very awkward when I don't know whether I will start with the firm in January (or ever)
What really bothers me, though, is how slow these firms are to react to market realities. During my summer with my (v50) firm, I knew there were too many of us; I knew there was not enough work; and I knew that, if things got worse (which they did), something would have to give. Yet my firm decided it would be a good idea to promise us all full time employment. Savy move guys!
All I want is a clear answer from my firm. Just tell me that there is no place for me and I will move on. But not knowing my fate -- and trying to study for the bar in the process -- is torture.
197, if you knew there would be trouble, nobody forced you to take that offer. You reap what you sow. Maybe you can sue your firm on their "promise" under some sort of contract claim.
Before the trolls jump all over me -- I recognize that it should read "savvy", not "savy".
If you've worked 4 years in BigLaw, you have enough money to last at least 6 months. Explain to me how a 3L, offer revoked, no job opportunities in sight, is going to last 6 months of living expenses. Btw, GradPlus loan payments started this month. And don't say, move back in w/ parents because that's an option for a laid-off associate as well.
198,
"You reap what you sow" - there is no possible interpretation of you and Scared 3L's conversation in which this statement makes sense. It is pure nonsense.
You, sir, are a moron.
198,
"You reap what you sow" - there is no possible interpretation of you and Scared 3L's conversation in which this statement makes sense. It is pure nonsense.
You, sir, are a moron.
i'm a fish 3L who got the ax. maybe, as many of you have reiterated, we should be grateful that we're getting our bar expenses covered, getting stipends. etc.
but the truth is, i have been BUSTING my a** for 20 years to get into a great high school, to get into a great college, to get into a great law school, to get into what i was misled to believe was a great firm. and all i have to show for it is a basically worthless piece of paper with my school seal on it.
who's going to hire me now? i'll be supremely lucky if i can get a public interest job that pays even 30k this year, considering all the deferred incoming associates at other firms are available to public interest organizations for free.
my american dream has been shot to hell. thanks fish and richardson, for not having the DECENCY to even give me a fighting chance in this economy.
198 - I agree that I made a mistake in trusting (i) an established firm, and (ii) partners who reassured me all summer long.
176 - CS is marketable not because it is the most difficult major but because it is where there are the most patents right now and where there are the most projected to be in the future. Chemistry might be harder but it is not where the patents are.
201, he decided to go with his firm while aware of the potential risks, and now he has to live with the consequences of his decision, now that those risks have come to fruition. You must be real proud of your 155 on the LSAT.
The notion that 3L's are bad/defective/failures is pure nonsense.
It is the equivalent of saying that anyone unable to sell their house in this market must have a shitty house.
Don't let that bullshit get in your head. There is too much supply and not enough demand. Simple as that. Market contraction.
The thing to do is to do everything you possibly can to generate some income for yourself while working in a legal capacity. If you have to hustle for your own clients while taking court appointments, then so be it.
The options are to get in the trenches and fight for it, or to do something else and hope your skills/education don't get so stale no one will hire you.
3L's situation is dire, but it's not because there's anything wrong with you guys.
203,
Sheesh. I get that you got screwed. Royally, in fact. But you still have your diploma and you're still a top notch graduate. So the American dream of $160k salary out of law school gets deferred a year. It is a big whup, but not the end of the world. You'll get your American Dream(TM).
203, you did get your chance. It's just that 66% of your counterparts in your class beat you.
197 and 203
You should study for the bar, spend as little as possible and try to assess what other options you might have. Develop other options. My own advice since last year has been for folks to head for good government jobs, DC regulatory work is in a bubble, and they have top flight attorneys who were lucky enough to escape over there.
It sounds silly, but treat this like a major emotional trauma (which it is) lots of exercise and sleep. (That Dune mantra on how fear is the mind killer isnt bad either).
Repress and deny whatever you need to repress and deny to get through it. Attitude is everything and things will be different in a year or two. But you don't want to end up dysfunctional.
As I understand the backstory on Fish, they DID treat a key client badly, that work was pulled, and now they have pulled this, which is reprehensible. They were one of our key firms, and we are hearing from a lot of their competition and we are paying attention to it. Not much consolation, but i think you will find their competition sympathetic to a resume from a Fish hiree.
Best of luck
So is this a sign that IP is not the holy grail of legal jobs or were the fired/deferred people mostly those with non-technical backgrounds?
209,
What an incredibly ignorant thing to write. We already know Fish (1) offered 203 a job based on whatever and then (2) fired 203 based on 203's undergrad degree. How did 66% of 203's counterparts beat 203?
208 and 209,
203 here. actually, it kind of is the end of the world. i'm not going to delude myself into thinking i'll be able to find a job i can support myself with after my 6 month stipend runs out in this economy, given that there are tons of top candidates out there who can work for free on their firm stipends.
and 66% of my counterparts didn't "beat" me. they were just luckier. their firms didn't screw them over. so don't tell me i had my chance and blew it.
196 -
So the point you were trying make is that in all of your calls and interactions your opponents are people that make a few million dollars a year more that you? See that's what I meant by settling for mediocrity.
I did, in fact, go to public school. And if my grandchildren someday look back and realize that all of family before me went to public school but none after, I will have accomplished something. Enjoy driving home at 4:30 you selfish prick.
211, I'm an EE with a masters degree, tops of my undergrad/grad classes, great grades at a top 20 law school, and I got deferred. Not to sound like a braggart, but there's no way I wasn't top 33% of fish's incoming class, but got deferred anyway. It was a totally arbitrary selection, and probably had more to do with how busy an office is than anything.
215 - did you go top BS and MS programs?
203, they could have done this any number of months ago and you still wouldn't have had a fighting chance in this economy, unless you have huge cans.
meant, go to. Also, do you have industry experience or a lot of industry experience?
217,
That may be true, but at least they could have signed up to take the bar in the state where their parents are so that they could have some marketable skills when they move back with them. See the outrage now?
203/213,
208 here. Do you have a technical background? Were you set to join F&R's in litigation or corporate practice groups?
If you have a technical background, things aren't quite as bleak. I'm in SoCal and most of the more settled firms (been here 10-15 years) have haven't seen a significant drop in business, if any. The engines of IP are still getting lubed (universities, defense) by our tax dollars. Yes, all corporations are going to cut their IP budgets for the next fiscal year, but you're not going to see a fatal collapse.
If there is a fatal collapse, you might have bigger problems to worry about.
I am one of the cold offered bottom third. I have 7 years experience working at a major corporate high tech firm as an engineer, and a degree in EE. I was slated to be in the litigation group, so I doubt my degree has much to do with it.
I lay the responsibility at the feet of the partners in my office, who couldn't manage to drum up enough business to support a single new incoming associate. I know it's tough out there, but other offices were able to do it.
220 - I'd love to believe I could get an IP job in SoCal, but even if there hasn't been a significant drop in business (which I find hard to believe), I doubt any of those firms will be hiring deferred 3Ls any time soon.
203,
Please see post 207. Don't let the trolls goad you.
216,
Engineering isn't quite as retarded as the legal profession when it comes to 'prestige.' Obviously an MS from Regent University doesn't mean much, but no one is going to lose an offer because they have an MS from Arizona instead of MIT. Having an MS in EE is rare enough (among lawyers), that 215 should have easily leapfrogged almost his/her entire class.
223 is right--which is why 215 is probably right that it depended on office more than anything.
223 - Firms are selective when they can be even with respect to the prestige of undergrad and grad programs. MSEEs are somewhat rare among law school grads but I think they will take MIT, Stanford or Georgia Tech over low ranked engineering programs. Besides being prestigious, having alumni can help with getting univ (research) clients. Science PhDs + JD are also rare but it seems like Finnegan has a lot of people with that degree combo.
Also, tech people aren't really known for their personalities so maybe s/he wasn't as good of a fit as they thought when the economy was better.
211:
Columbus OH IP firm seeks EE or advanced degrees. You won't make fish money. You'll see your kids. The rest of you kids be a detective, and don't bother if all you have is a CE or ME
Locke Lord Dallas - Hope NW is treating you well. :P
225,
Law student?
185 - give us your salary, expense break down, loan payment schedules, and amounts put in savings and then we can tell you where you went wrong
I feel bad for the 3Ls who have to focus on bar review after hearing this news but like others I wonder why Fish felt more loyalty to people it had hired in December and to 2009 graduates than to existing associates. I also wonder why partners in some offices actively try to assist those who lost jobs and others don't give a damn. I agree that engineers, no matter how rotten their attitude and in some instances how indifferent their work, are being retained over anyone else. It is a shame: while most of the partners were self-centered idiots I liked the associates I worked with and learned a lot from them.
I don't think this was handled well but in fairness I think Peter Devlin was terrified of bad publicity and put it off as long as possible, hoping he wouldn't have to do it. He does nothing but sit in this office trolling blogs, worried about what he will see. He is not a bad guy.
BIG TREE FALL HARD
As a fellow IP boutiquer, let me say one thing to all my fish brethren...start making connections for the jump. you wont be able to leave for another six months, but when an opening comes, you really need to consider leaving. our firms intake department had to hire three temporary intake clerks to handle file transfers. these files are coming from places like fish and finn. we have been trying to whoo these clients for years, and nothing happened. now, when its their job on the line, they realize that they can get a lot more done by not paying your outrageous rates. we even had an assistant ip counsel tell us he was doing it because he wanted his companys performance bonus. that is what it has come down to. you are worth nothing more to an inhouse counsel than a couple of grand.
now that everyone is waking up and realizing that fish is nothing but a conglomeration of second rate small shops that charge cravath rates, the outlook looks bleak.
and for the people that keep saying we are the best because we are the biggest and we try more litigation, get the inside scoop on the bids your firm is putting on litigation. you guys undercut significantly, its almost a joke in the IP boutique sphere. we dont need to compete with you guys, because you are going to give yourselves away.
start making the connections now. despite the fact that fish bought out second rate shops to grow, there are some of the top ip lawyers in the country working at fish (few, but they are there). you need to start creating your exit strategy.
you have been warned.
164 - you may have taken that Kenyon offer, but did they take your acceptance? Let me guess - you're waiting unitl January to find out...
Okay, I have to tell all you associates that were fired despite "doing so much for your firm" something; when you were fired, we felt bad for you and your family, but we obviously didn't loss sleep worrying about facing you in court. If a firm has to resent offers to 3Ls, that is extremely nerve-racking for the firm, because it has to make a decision without a real chance to evaluate the talent and could be letting go of a worthy adversary that will make our decision look worse than drafting Sam Bowie.
215 - Oblon and Banner Witcoff are hiring. Go there now.
234,
"we obviously didn't loss sleep"
"If a firm has to resent offers to 3Ls"
You know, to be honest, I really do believe that you are a partner in a law firm. That you're dicking around on this website instead of bringing in business says a lot about the success of your practice.
215, whatever you do stay away from small (under 50 attorney) IP boutiques. They are complete shit - usually have about 3 or 4 major partners with a personal fiefdom. You will end having to ass kiss. After spending two Memorial Day holidays hanging out with one asshole partner and his overfed moo-cow wife, then driving to another partner's shindig (no your pubescent kid can't rub up against my gf), I escaped. I have a marketing budget, 1750 billable 200 accountable, and 50 whatever I please hrs requirement for 215k, which seems better than 1700 for 125k.
232, Nice troll. None of my contacts at IP boutiques, NYC, DC, Mass or Ohio/Mich, have seen any increase in business. In fact, they would have every reason to boast and swagger over even the most trivial work increase. Some are my former colleagues, others are friends with whom I have a rivalry. Yet, nothing.
They are still eager to take whatever work from which I am conflicted. They still turn over second eyes analysis in record time.
None of my clients have left. Many clients have asked for steep discounts and were satisfied with minor discounts.
No sympathy from me. I did not do well on the LSAT, and attended a 4th tier school. While there, I busted my ass and made it on law review, then published. I graduated near the top of my class. As there is no real OCI at our school, I sent resumes and cover letters out to several biglaw firms. Landed a couple interviews, but they did not pan out. So I graduated with no job lined up, paid for barbri on my own and passed the bar. Only then was I able to find a job. I do fun work and have no regrets. There are a lot of folks out there like me, and I think you'll be very hard pressed to find one of us that are sympathetic to these kids who are out of a "job" before even taking the bar exam. They should be kissing F&R's ass for paying them $5k/month to do what the vast majority of hard-working law students must do for free.
If you think the 3Ls have it bad wait until huge percentage of 2L summers aren't event given offers. No need to debate which class is the "lost gen." There is enough bad news to go around for everyone.
240 - as a 2L scheduled to start next week, I know you're right. We're all going to share the burden here. I think 2009>2010>2011 as far as the raw number who get and can keep jobs, but I fully expect my summer class to get massacred in historic rates. Most firms already cut summer hiring by 1/3 this year, and it will decline even more with a hiring rate of 75% or less. Associates - don't judge the SA's as gunners based on this summer's performance. I'm sure you can understand...
I wrote a really angry post, because I'm pretty angry, but then i decided enough (true) mean stuff has been said already.
Honestly, i just feel stupid. I'd been on Fish's radar for a long time, and so I felt like my job was a lock. I drank their koolaid, and I believed them when they told me over and over again how much they loved me, and how I was a perfect fit for fish. I didn't do extracurricular activities in law school because i knew i had a job. I didn't try too terribly hard to make the highest grade in class, because i knew had a job. I didn't try to network or interview with other firms because i knew i had a job. Now, i don't have a job, and i'm stuck with a decent, but not top notch, resume, begging for the scraps of other firms that managed their money and clients more appropriately.
I still like fish and the people there, but now i feel betrayed--both professionally and personally. I appreciate the stipend, and the kind words, but at the end of the day, FR kept 1/3 of the new hires and threw the rest of us to pasture (never mind that i've met those people, and i'm definitely a better attorney than them--fish's partners told me as much).
I feel bad for people who stall their careers for a year based off fish's assurances, because there's a good chance those people are going to be left high and dry in 2010. If I'm wrong on this, someone from Fish please post here so we can all know that the deferred people are guaranteed positions no matter what the economy does.
As for me, I'm weighing my options, and hoping something almost as good comes along.
242 again...after reading more posts on this board, things are starting to make more sense. I do not have a technical background, though everyone always told me that wasn't a detriment for me. I guess it was. Maybe i should stick to business transactions and such.
169 and 210,
Who is the major client Fish lost and/or mistreated?
Hi kids-
While trying to cover your student loan debt with your stipend, please apply for these jobs: http://www.patentlyo.com/jobs/
To all those deferred for a year with 5k a month, let me remind you that you'll be making more than a federal clerk. So....if really want to practice patent law, take your 60k and go intern for the Federal Circuit or a district judge with a patent heavy docket (EDTex, NDCal). Judges rarely turn away free help even in this economy. You'll be making more than your counterparts who actually got a clerkship and you'll be gaining similar experience.
Fish is desperate to keep their $2M+ salary for their top people and doesn't care how many lives they need to destroy in order to do it.
Good luck flocking to patent prosecution. IP is a LAGGING indicator, R&D budget cuts now will affect it in the future.
http://www.patentlyo.com/.a/6a00d8341c588553ef01157074d6e2970b-pi
-7.7% budget decrease for IP Lit and
-4.5% budget decrease for IP
-USPTO slave
193:
"I like hearing from the government attorneys. There's nothing more inspiring than settling for mediocrity."
I'm confused by your definition of "mediocrity."
I'm employed, working in a specialized field that I adore. I'm not making 160K, but I make six figures. Importantly, given the vast disparity in the quality of life, my salary per hour is actually higher than those with billable hours requirements.
Young Biglaw attorneys that are employed are lucky to have jobs and often have little say in the matters on which they are staffed. Many are unemployed or having offers rescinded. Job satisfaction in Biglaw is nearly non-existent and attrition is horrendous. We've all known this for years, but we've allowed you to continue hyping yourselves as "elite" merely because of a bigger paycheck. The notion that writing memos and performing doc review as a 3rd year associate is somehow intellectually rewarding, or superior, work is laughable. Your similarly situated government, small law and non-profit attorneys have tried their own cases, argued their own motions, and drafted their own pleadings by their 3rd year. Now Biglaw attorneys no longer have their risk-adverse recruiting mechanisms to comfort them. You're getting tossed out on the street in droves. It's difficult to see what, if any, aspect of Biglaw is superior to that of a government attorney.
Your definition of mediocrity needs some fine-tuning.
176:
I suspect you only have a surface-level understanding of CS (your Java class isn't exactly representative). While there are certainly aspects of EE, CE, ChemE, and physics that are more difficult than aspects of CS, that is not to say that any of those are more difficult than alls aspects of CS. I find that most people think that "CS" is Web development or Excel "programming." No. Programmers do things like create Excel itself. That involves a lot of complicated CS concepts that 176 probably does not and would not realize until s/he actually worked on that type of project.
176> "Why is CS a highly marketable degree? It didn't even qualify for the pat bar exam not too long ago."
Hmm, I would think that admissibility to the pat bar tracks what is patentable, not what is marketable...
Absolutely deplorable move by fish. The 1/3 that got shitcanned (by some arbitrary process, which has nothing to do with work performance) will have a tough time finding a job. Fish's move is out there in public. Other IP shops know exactly what Fish did and will know exactly what happened to the unemployed 3L who has F&R on his/her resume.
Absolutely deplorable. I hope the firm goes down in flames for this. It may not mean much now, but us 08s, 09s, 10s, 11s will remember the firms that took action like this...and they will pay for it in the future.
has anyone else who got canned heard anything from fish since the phone calls on wednesday? i have yet to receive an email or letter. in fact, i've gotten most of my information from ATL.
fish is TRULY unprofessional. if there was a vault.com ranking for "tackiest" firm, fish would win by a landslide.
what are people with revoked offers supposed to tell the new places they apply to? fish refused to acknowledge they're revoking offers, but if we say we've just been deferred for a year, how are we supposed to expect other places to hire us? (as if there's anyone hiring anyway). any advice?
230: "I don't think this was handled well but in fairness I think Peter Devlin was terrified of bad publicity and put it off as long as possible, hoping he wouldn't have to do it. He does nothing but sit in this office trolling blogs, worried about what he will see. He is not a bad guy."
"Not a bad guy?" He's supposed to be managing the firm! bringing in business! Doing whatever it takes to NOT have to revoke offers.
93-
How do you find firms like yours?
250-
As a Stanford M.S. EE graduate, I believe CS is easier is that it lacks any class that requires strong mathematical skills. For example, CS has nothing as mathematically challenging as electromagnetics or advanced signal processing.
Moreover, EE requires a much greater breadth of classes than CS, selected from a wider array of disciplines. Many EE students take the most advanced CS courses in addition to classes in solid state physics, telecommunications, analog circuits, and quantum mechanics. Although I met CS students in some of the easier EE classes, like VLSI design or digital circuits, I did not meet any in these other more challenging classes.
I do have a great respect for CS majors, but I support the traditional view that EE is harder.
256 - I do have great respect for Stanford M.S. EE graduates but I support the traditional view that you are a f*&king ass pirate.
Smells like Fish.