Milbank Layoffs Follow-Up
Last Monday, we reported that Milbank laid off 89 people. Milbank did not respond to our requests for comment for that story, but when one tipster asked firm management how many people were laid off from the firm, the tipster was told to “check the blogs.”
We take our responsibility on that front seriously, and so we have some additional information to report. In our initial report, we said that first years were not laid off by Milbank. Apparently, that statement was in error. We have since received numerous reports from sources claiming that first years were in fact laid off last Monday. Many of those reports were from laid off first years. this report is exemplary of many we received:
Screw you MysTTTal. Milbank did lay-off first years. At least 10 firm wide. Take the hot comb out of your hair and do some real reporting.
Once again, I’m a guy. And I only put natural juices and berries in my hair.
Another laid off first year reports:
The firm did in fact give us 3 months severance but today’s news came as a major shock and seem to have been prompted by the arrival of summer associates this coming Monday.
Laying off first years is one thing. But did Milbank also lay off a pregnant woman on maternity leave? Somebody cue up the Shinyung Oh music, after the jump.
We received multiple reports that a female associate who was in the middle of her maternity leave was among the 49 associates fired from Milbank last week. One tipster puts it this way:
[A] previously well-respected fifth year female litigation associate [was included] in last week’s “lay offs.” Previously, that is, before she became pregnant. Her career at Milbank ended abruptly last week when they decided to terminate her in the middle of her maternity leave.
The situation brings up old and negative memories for Milbank. Six years ago, the firm got hit in the American Lawyer for its treatment of pregnant women. Here’s a bit of the 2003 article:
Michelle Quist Mumford, who left her third-year associate spot at Milbank in April, says her career nose-dived the moment she announced her pregnancy last year. It didn’t help, she notes, that she was the first pregnant associate in litigation, and that there are no women partners in the department’s New York office. To make matters worse, Mumford had to take time off because of a difficult first trimester. Though the litigation partners “were outwardly supportive,” she says, “they didn’t give me work; they took me off almost every big case.” Instead, she says, she was stuck doing document reviews. Being a pregnant second-year associate at Milbank, she reports, was “akin to [being] a leper in a public square — ignored, shunned, rejected.”Things didn’t improve after her pregnancy. After a four-month maternity leave, Mumford returned part time to Milbank in March. Again, she says, partners gave her no work: “I kept telling them I needed work, but got nothing.” First-years, she claims, were given more responsibility. So after five weeks of frustration — “I sat there all day surfing the Internet” — she resigned. But the real kicker, she adds, was that no one from Milbank’s much-touted diversity committee ever contacted her.
A current Milbank associate had this to say about the situation:
Milbank has maintained that all of its “lay offs” were based on the global economic downturn and lack of work. But in reality, Milbank did not — could not have — simply picked names out of a hat. Each decision had to be at least partially based on billable hours, performance, and length of time at the firm. So what exactly was the problem with the fifth year on maternity leave? Had she not billed enough in the labor and delivery room? Had she not billed enough in her third trimester, when partners were unlikely to be staffing her on new projects? Or did everyone suddenly find her performance sub-par — after five years at the firm — the moment she became pregnant? Obviously, none of these alternatives is acceptable.
Mibank did not respond to our request for comment about this decision.
This isn’t exactly the kind of Mother’s Day story one would hope to see. Not only does it look bad to fire an expectant mother during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, it’s also a chilling message to send to the other female associates at the firm. Does the firm really want to send a message that people shouldn’t get pregnant for fear of losing their job?
Are female associates feeling increased pressure to mothball the baby factory until the economic crisis passes? Take our poll below.
Cracks in the Ceiling [Law.com]
Earlier: Nationwide Layoff Watch: 89 Down at Milbank
Say Hello to Shinyung Oh, Author of the Paul Hastings Farewell Email




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FIRST
FIRST
third
Ma hed jest asploded.
Did Milbank have stealth layoffs before these "announced" layoffs?
Firms don't hire women so they have some place to play I Have a Career and am Important Barbie dress-up when they're not taking 4 months off to pump out children while partners (read: men, no matter the anatomy) never get to see their children. We hire you to bill, not fulfill some 20th century notion of the working mother called to a higher power. Bill or GTFO.
fourTTTh
I'm just thinking out loud here, but could all the fired associates have a claim against the firm under a theory of promissory estoppel. I know a little bit about this because I'm a research assistant with my Contracts professor this summer, and this is his area of expertise. It seems to me that the associates acted in reliance upon Milbank's various promises of employment. The Restatement, section 90, might be applicable here.
Screw you #6.
Stealth layoffs had been going on at Milbank since mid-2008. They recently quieted down and then the big one hit last Monday. Those of us who have survived are wondering if more cuts are coming. Morale is low low low...
Amen #6
By "leper in a public square," I think she means "someone incapable of doing work in a workplace."
Thank you #6
TTTweedy.
natural juices and berries. Mystyle you slay me!
It is possible to do layoffs "at random."
This is exactly what happened earlier this year at one of Latham's offices.
They called all the 2nd year associates in and said, "For economic reasons, we have to let half of you go. We don't have enough of an idea of your potential yet to do this based on performance, so we're going to pick names out of a hat."
The partners in the room then DREW NAMES OUT OF A HAT WHILE THE ASSOCIATES WERE SITTING IN THE ROOM WITH THEM. The ones that were drawn were told to start packing their offices up, and to expect a visit from HR later in the day.
Brutal, but true.
"Mothball the baby factory" -Really?
how is this legal?
6 sounds harsh, but to me the viewpoint (while still wrong) is closer to how things should be than the whole "you can't fire a pregnant associate" crowd. It just blow my mind that there are people who believe that a pregnant associate or mother (or person on maternity leave) should not be subject to the same kinds of employment decisions as their not similarly situated peers.
less babies = less lawyers = less competition.
Seriously, we should all be applauding Milbank's callousness and the chilling effect it will have on future pregnancies.
Mommies don't make it in Biglaw. So it goes.
18 - How is what legal? Laying people off? Well last time I checked...
#6--Truer words have never been spoken
There used to be a time when first years and those on maternity leave were considered absolutely safe from lay-offs. We are no longer living in that time.
16 - at least Dave Gordon REMAINS
Countdown until Latham lays off a pregnant first year...
I didn't care about Star Trek until I saw the Burger King collectable glasses. And yes, I will be collecting all of them. Judge me if you must.
"So after five weeks of frustration -- "I sat there all day surfing the Internet" -- she resigned. But the real kicker, she adds, was that no one from Milbank's much-touted diversity committee ever contacted her."
That was her mistake. First, she should've gone back full-time and just worked part-time hours if she knew she was already screwed. Then, she should've stayed there for months being idle and looking for jobs in a half-assed fashion, gotten stealth-layoffed, and looked for a job in earnest during her 3+ plus of paid severance. Fool! I know this wouldn't be possible now, but it certainly would've been in 2003.
I agree with #6 - Enough of these part-time, pregnant women (and paternity-leave taking fathers for that matter) taking time off, working part-time (often from home), leaving at 6:00, etc. etc. We aren't paying people hundreds of thousands of dollars a year so they can have a cushy job and be home at 6:00 every night. Law is a tough business with a lot of demands - if people (men or women) are willing to give the time it takes - great; if not, then leave it to those of us who will (and want to reap the rewards). If you want a cushy job, go work for the government.
Being in the middle of having a kid means you're immune from layoffs and all other employer economic decisions? Well I got a great idea for the male associates:
1. Impregnate a baby momma every ten months.
2. Never get laid off.
3. Take four months of paid parental leave per kid. Oh wait, guys don't get four months.
4. Nevertheless, profit!
29: You know you get a paycut if you go part-time, right?
so were 2nd years particularly hard hit?
This would never happen at Paul Hastings.
Hah! borntobill.com indeed.
Hah! borntobill.com indeed.
To all you jealous men with uterus envy: GET THE FUCK OVER IT.
Clearly number 6 and all that agree with him has not actually worked around women before, let alone pregnant women. Every single one I have ever worked with worked just as hard as their non-pregnant (and often likely not to ever get the chance to get a girl pregnant given the attitudes i read on this site) counterparts.
They literally work up until the point the baby pops out, then they take maternity leave. And if you guys have such a damn problem with maternity leave (which both guys and girls can take), complain to your companies HR department, not to the women that are merely taking advantage of a strictly enforced corporate policy. Hell, if I could take 4 weeks off, i def would, esp if I had to lug around 20 lbs of water while all the men in my department who will never have a serious relationship scoff at me secretly.
Seriously, number 6, F- you. F- you and all the chauvinistic pigs like you that cause Title VII to need to become law in the first place.
Retired partner here: I still recall the time a first year associate showed up for her first day of work and announced that she was pregnant. We should have thrown her sorry ass out out the window, but instead we let her work reduced hours, take maternity leave, return to work part-time for about six months, then announce her second pregancy, work reduced hours, take another full maternity leave, then tell us that she's decided to become a full-time mom. What a bitch.
"Does the firm really want to send a message that people shouldn't get pregnant for fear of losing their job?"
God forbid a business send out a message of efficiency like that.
jesus. you are all insane. and everything that people hate about lawyers. what a disgusting comment thread.
#6 is cruel but correct. Have all the kids you want, just don't expect to be able to reconcile it with litigation practice in BigLaw. Some professions are just long-term incompatible with the biological issues of childbearing. And whining about not getting more work in light of 4 months of maternity leave and taking additional time off for a tough first (?!) trimester is classic Gen Y. They took you off the "big" cases because you weren't going to be around to do the work. It's called prudent planning, something your ego and uterus apparently never conspired to figure out.
#6 is correct: Maternity leave is inappropriate in the modern workplace. Why should employers pay for time off for you to have an excuse to demand ...... more time off.
Just imagine if a guy were fired for taking paternity leave: it would be a punch line.
What a horrible firm.
37 - while I may agree with some of what you write, you are delusional if you think guys can take any kind of extended maternity leave. Anything over a week just isn't going to fly with the partners.
I'm betting 37 is a chick anyway.
37,
Give me a break... having a kid shouldn't act as some shield from getting laid off. And as a father of several kids with a working wife let me deal a little reality to you - she fully admitted she didn't work as ahard as the non-pregnant counterparts when she was pregnant or as a mother. First, she went to numerous doctor's appointments during the pregnancies. Second, she fully admitted she took naps in her office. Third, she had extremely bad morning sickness (here is a clue - morning sickness can occur all day). Fourth, after coming back she would need to take time off for pumping to provide breast milk for our kids.
I am certainly not going todefend a company/firm that lays of an associate while on maternaty leave or working part-time b/c they are a mom/dad but the reality of the world is that companies need to make difficult choices and someone working at their firm that requires another person to suck up the work for that part time person means a great deal to the bottom line.
37 - It sounds like you are the one who has not worked with pregnant women before. Many of them are still "at work" until the baby is born, no doubt. Besides the weekly/daily doctor's visits and times they are out due to sickness. Then they go away for 4 months while we subsidize their recovery (easily $50,000 with nothing in return during that time). Then they come back, but - wouldn't you know it - baby keeps getting sick, dontcare keeps calling, etc. It's practically child abuse watching associates trying to be "mothers". Who's raising these kids? Or the mother bails as in retired partner's case, and the woman's entire legal career (school + loans + paying them off) was a financial wash.
And what about the men taking paternity leave? Until they expel a watermelon out of an orifice, they don't need to be taking time off. I can't imagine how difficult pregnancy is, and neither can these nancy boys.
Don't junior associates have an overinflated sense of entitlement as it is? Add on top of that already massive entitlement the fact that the female half of the breed feel extra entitled to accommodations for making the personal decision to have a kid, and you have a strain of Super Twat that cannot be stopped.
Because you're entitled to both the kid and the high powered job simultaneously, of course, and anyone that tells you that you sometimes have to make difficult decisions in life, and choose between a 'one' or an 'other', is a chauvinistic asshole!
Well here's another hard choice you should be forced to make, cupcake: Shut the fuck up and either sacrifice certain aspects of your personal life to further your career, without resorting to lays to protect your feebleness that your gender, evidently, has burdened you with, or stop pretending you're an "equal" when you obviously don't REALLY want to be one.
37, perhaps you should learn more about the world. Maternity leave is a standard of four months of paid leave, and the mode is four months. Paternity leave is somewhere between zero and four weeks (very rare), and the mode is zero weeks. I do not know of any male associate who took paternity leave above and beyond his actual accrued vacation days.
So no, it's not like "both guys and girls can take" the same leave. Your nice-sounding "everyone is equal" claim is fooling nobody. Nice try though.
MysTTTal
http://eliemystttalspeaks.ytmnd.com/
Serious question: Are people arguing that being pregnant or on maternity leave should be an absolute barrier to getting laid off? If so, why?
It shouldn't be a factor in the decision, but if someone would have been laid off regardless, I don't see why they should get to stay just because they're pregnant or on leave.
And to the people who are insinuating that she was highly regarded before, so it has to be because of the pregnancy - you don't think that the majority of people being laid off were "highly regarded" until they got fired?
Is it really that extraordinary that one of 49 attorneys laid off was pregnant? Really? I think not.
All of this BS about the financial bottom line and how pregnant women aren't as productive forgets something:
Congress has made it unlawful to "lay off" someone if the decision is motivated (even in part) by pregnancy and gender.
Tell it to a judge or jury, and see what their take is.
52,
There are lots of stupid laws.
53 -
Yes, there are lots of stupid laws, but this isn't one of them. But *shock* Biglaw firms are still bound by even the stupid ones.
Elie,
Where is a post about the layoffs last week at Snell & Wilmer?
Way to many dumb ass law students on this site.
If she was a good lawyer it is BS they fired her. All the guys on the site talking shit probably never get laid so the idea of a pregnant woman is foriegn to them.
Elie,
Where is the post about Snell & Wilmer's layoffs last week?
This is somewhat related to an earlier comment, but what if the female associate got pregnant in reliance on being able to return after maternity leave? Shouldn't the firm then have to at least pay for the baby's food, diapers, etc?
53 - is that the argument you use in front of the judge and jury? Wow, I would hate to be one of your clients. Better yet, call your malpractice carrier right now.
Part of the reason mothers get (and need) maternity leave is due to the mechanics of childbirth. Pushing a watermelon through an opening the size of a baseball takes some time to recover from. Plus, there's the whole breast-feeding thing. Neither of these issues are relevant to a father's demand for paternity leave.
I'm not an advocate of breeding, but I think the (very valid) reasons for the disparate treatment of mothers and fathers is worthy of note.
37, your ideas of equality interfere with the natural order of the world. It must be nice to live in a liberal fantasy land where everyone, and every culture, is the same.
55 / 57 - this is a board for BigLaw, not regional south west crappy law.
53 - is that the argument you use in front of the judge and jury? Wow, I would hate to be one of your clients. Better yet, call your malpractice carrier right now.
If you are a partner and you share the opinion expressed by #6, then be up front about it. Don't put your firm out there as a family-friendly, diverse workplace, etc., if your real attitude is bill or leave. And don't offer maternity leave if you look on any woman who takes that leave as a freeloader. I dare #6 to put his views into the official written policy of his firm. The little hypocrite would never do it.
59,
I'm not attempting to make a legal argument. Nor am I saying that the law shouldn't or doesn't apply to law firms. I am simply saying that Title VII is a stupid law, and handwaving objections to its stupidity and general unfairness with appeals like, "but it's the law!" are missing the point.
-53
6 is so alone, tossing and turning at night, wondering what it must be like to kiss a girl. Oh, he's so very angry when these women become pregnant because that means they've "done it" and he's trying to ask his cooler guy friends what it's like, how does it feel, etc.
52, everyone in this thread is debating whether the policy is morally correct. Some are arguing that the law is wrong. You are arguing that the law is right because it's the law. That's not very convincing.
54/59, since you're such big believers in the rule of law, I'm guessing you have never publicly opposed the prohibition of gay marriage in California since November. Proposition 8 is the law!
from what i've seen in biglaw practice (midlevel assoc at a V50 firm's NY office), 37 is right. the pregnant attorneys i've known and worked with have been some of the most intelligent, hardworking, dedicated attorneys in our office. i haven't yet known or worked with any attorney who was looking to use pregnancy as a means to cruise through the otherwise arduous responsibility of making their billable hours.
also, regarding leave for male associates expecting kids, it's called parental leave (not paternity leave), and many firms offer several paid weeks of it. if guys don't want to look less manly by taking such leave, so be it. but the option is there. and it's a smarter one, at some firms, than using accrued vacation, because if leave is taken in lieu of vacation time, billable hours may be pro-rated to reflect the amount of leave taken, so you'd take the time you need/want, but wouldn't get hit at the end of the billing cycle for having done so.
66, may I suggest you try to get laid yourself? Those who brag about getting laid on the Internet are usually not.
Angry white men of the internet unite!
Rise up against your oppressors!
Break from the shackles and run free at last!
I'm married, I never get laid anymore...
A penny saved is a woman fired.
52 -- just because one of many laid off associates happens to be pregnant does not mean that the decision was motivated by the pregnancy. Fair treatment should mean that pregnant women are just as likely to get laid off as their at work male and female counterparts.
69 -- you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Milbank's reputation will be in the toilet by the time the depression ends. Just wait until they further defer incoming associates. Seriously Milbank, why *only* defer until January if you know there is little hope that we will actually start then? All you are doing is screwing us over even more than the other firms who outright deferred for a full year. There is no chance in hell Milbank will be able to start 70 new associates in January.
If you wait too long to defer again, you will be remembered as the firm who strung incomings along for no good reason. JUST LET US KNOW NOW!
67
You are right. Determinations about whether a policy is morally correct should have nothing to do with whether such an action possibly violates the law. For a second, I forgot that we were in Philosophy 101, and instead thought we were discussing whether the actions of a major Biglaw firm were a good idea, keeping in mind federal law. My bad.
52
Prima Nocta of incoming female associates anyone? I mean if the equity partners have to pay for the bitch when she is preggers, shouldn't they derive some carnal pleasure beforehand. I'm just sayin!
75 - Why don't you just go get another job? How are you being screwed by the firm's alleged failure to let you know now about a possible future deferral?
74
The response was to the people who said that pregnant women miss more work, take months off to have the baby, etc. Nobody can argue with a pregnant-blind decision. I'm talking about the people complaining about the productivity of women on maternity leave.
52
76, the Civil Rights Act, along with the Immigration and Nationality Act, has driven the country down the toilet. Eventually, this system created by arrogant liberals such as yourself will collapse. And who takes charge after a time of political unrest? Not the formerly coddled "protected classes."
78 - ummm. Are you serious? What am I supposed to tell prospective employers? That I am available to work from only September to January, but that if I get deferred I can stay on longer? Who will hire me in that scenario!
If I don't know how long the deferral will be, how am I supposed to plan my life? If, for example, I knew for a fact I will start in January, then I could find an unpaid internship to occupy my time. But if Milbank calls me up in November to tell me I'm deferred until 2011 or whatever, then I just wasted time that could have been spent looking for a more permanent job.
Look, we all know things are bad right now at the firm. You guys over-hired, even though the end of the bull market was obvious to most. But the least you could do is communicate with us. I just don't understand why you wouldn't defer for a full year given how bad things are.
@77 - You should be ashamed of yourself. What a disgusting attitude. When I quit this job (hell, this profession), I will be all too happy to get away from jerks like you. At the end of the day, you can't see past a pair of tits. Call your mom - she didn't raise you right.
82 -- this may not be the place to suggest that you are a woman who has no intention of making a career in this profession.
By "quit this job" 77 means, "get married, shit out two kids, and stay home all day getting fat while watching The View." Don't you see nobody expected anything more than that out of you?
Milbank is a joke of a firm. Dan Bartfuck and the rest of the partners there are racist clowns.
81, I think he means find another job and not return to Milbank. You really should use your imagination: imagine a world where you don't start at Milbank, because that will be reality in 2010 when all the deferred firms defer some more, after they realize that January 2010 was just a random date someone picked out of thin air.
Of course, you are also free to pro-actively tell Milbank that you want to be deferred until 2011. You'll definitely reduce your uncertainty anxiety that way. They'll accept your offer and love you for it. Everyone wins.
The tipsters don't write too well.
85 - I am not a racist clown! I am an equal opportunity clown.
Wait, there is a guy at Milbank named Dan Bartfuck? Why are we not talking more about that?
When will they take down the profiles of those who were laid off?
90 - they took them down on Friday, and there was a window where all the laid off associates had broken links. They picked people off from every group, even bankruptcy, which was supposed to be booming.
83 - oh, right, because the Powers That Be read anonymous comments on ATL and make firing decisions thereupon.
Or perhaps you mean that I'm proving the point made ever-so-hamfistedly by 84 and his ilk - that women don't have staying power in this profession. Fair enough. But my reasons for leaving are exemplified by the attitudes in this thread. Biglaw is teeming with insecure people full of vitriol and anger towards anyone who doesn't want to marry the job. If you think that's a shitty way to live, then it shouldn't be a long term gig for you, regardless of whether you're male, female, married, single, have kids or not. The critical mass of lawyers in any big firm will always take every opportunity to shred those who don't want to place the job above all else. That's fine. I just don't want to be a part of it forever. I think Biglaw and motherhood are inherently incompatible, so that leaves two choices: quit to have kids, or stay and feel like I'm doing both endeavors badly.
Part of the incompatibility is the hours - the service-driven nature of today's legal practice makes the lawyer's job endless. Clients demand our attention at all hours of the day or night. When other demands compete, the work doesn't get done in the same way. It's simple. But part of the incompatibility is the bizarre misogyny you see here. It's sad, but there seems to be a large segment of the attorney population with serious issues regarding women. They call us bitches, see us only as sex objects, regard our work as de facto inferior. It just plain sucks. I don't want to work with people who see me like that.
I suppose Milbank thinks humanity should go the way of the dinosaur. I don't think a pregnant woman needs to be patronized here (I'm a man), but Jesus Christ, why does it always have to be about fucking money?!
91-Thanks. It doesn't look like anyone has been removed to me--but maybe it's my perception
The ship be sinking...
93 - It doesn't have to be about money! To prove the point, organize the associates to give up 50% of their salary. They will each still make more than two or three average families in this country and then all the laid off associates can be re-hired. You are a genius.
the day a man pushes a baseball out of his peehole and then breastfeeds it every 2-3 hours is the day I will personally give all men 4 months leave for healing.
I'm a pregnant third year and more terrified of giving birth than I am of losing my job. You think 4 months maternity leave is a a gift? It's very much earned. If I could have someone else push this baby out, I'd do it in a second and gladly give up maternity leave.
96, the poster at 93 is obviously a liberal Democrat. Money is unimportant and should be easily given away only when it is other people's money. It's funny how associates think partners are greedy for wanting to maintain their take-home pay, yet no associate is willing to take even a small pay cut (from their income of 4x US median household income) to support laid-off staff.
Change we can believe in.
97, relax, they have great drugs these days. you'll be fine..
99 - i've heard the horror stories, even with drugs. I'm terrified because I have the pain tolerance of a man. It's not good.
-97
97- No, you did not "earn" maternity leave. It will be given to you by a society that believes in false senses of equality, but not because you 'earned' it. You made a personal decision you did not have to make. You chose to get pregnant, and you are choosing to give birth. You did not "earn" anything from your employer by making this personal, non-work related decision. Period.
Once all these "big" firms shutdown, ppl will wake up
101 --- wrong. As an employee, you earn all of the expected benefits, including medical, dental, and maternity leave. It is part of the bargain struck between employee and employer.
-- employer happily paying maternity benefits.
88 with the win.
97, I decided to get breast implants. It was a lot of hard work, and I was very anxious about it. It was terrifying. Did I "earn" four months of paid leave too, even though no client would be paying for the leave's salary? How can I get my co-workers to pull my weight during that time?
Of course, the fact that it was a purely personal decision should be irrelevant.
105 -- you too miss the point. maternity leave is part of a benefits package in the offer made to associates. there is no "cosmetic surgery leave." It's really not that complicated
-- 103
103- Wake up, please. The maternity leave benefit is mandated by law. It's not part of a naturally bargained for contract, but instead is imposed from above by the state. It was no more "earned" by the employee than her right to pursue a sexual harassment suit in the event that you squeeze her left tit and charmingly say "honk".
"Bill or GTFO" applies to everyone, not just the preggers.
81 says "the end of the bull market was obvious to most," and yet "most" got hit hard anyway, just like they do every time. I think by obvious to most, he meant in hindsight.
107,
Sorry, most firms offer far more maternity leave than required. It is a benefit that is offered (and marketed) specifically to attract high quality women. Why don't you work your way up to a business owner level and then comment.
LOL @ 89
103/106, by your definition summer associates through hard work "earned" their salaries and free summer lunches, and all the bank/AIG executives "earned" their salaries and bonuses.
We're talking about earned in the colloquial sense, not formal legalese. If everyone by definition earns their salaries and benefits, why was 97 talking about her leave benefits being "very much earned" because of the hardship she has to go through?
I really hope you're not a real lawyer.
111,
I'm trying to be nice but it's getting difficult. If I make an offer to a woman and say here is the salary and benefits you will earn at my firm, then yes, she will earn that salary and benefits assuming she shows up and does her job. Maternity leave is one of those benefits. I have not seen the AIG employment contracts and so (like a real lawyer) will not comment on it without the facts.
93 here,
96, Go Fuck Yourself
98, I'm a lifelong Republican who knows full well that usurper in the White House is nothing but a bullshit artist. POS liar. I don't think I was talking about a free subsidy. Just may the SAME consideration that a person on disablity gets. So, go fuck yourself too.
I think its clear that 103/106109 is a business owner. My guess is the female figurehead of a construction company whose husband put the business in her name to give them a better shot at government contracts.
I think its clear that 103/106109 is a business owner. My guess is the female figurehead of a construction company whose husband put the business in her name to give them a better shot at government contracts.
112, I give a $100k salary to someone in exchange for doing very little work. Maybe she's a relative or I want to bribe her to stick around.
Yes under the law and by your definition, she "earned" the salary. Same with the IRS.
Under the common sense definition of "earned" she did not earn that salary. Likewise, many people do not think that women who get four months of paid leave for doing nothing for the firm/clients "earned" that salary. Understand?
Do you seriously not get how some people might think the bank/AIG executives did not "earn" their salaries and bonuses, even if we all know those amounts were guaranteed under an employment contract?
114/115
I'm a male partner in a law firm. Worked my way through college and law school. And you are an asshole.
103/106/109
No 109, it's a way to be able to market to liberal do gooders and diversity magazines about how tolerant and open minded the firm is. No one gives a crap about racial diversity, homosexual diversity, or maternity leave.
113, a pregnancy is not the same as a disability. Figure out which one is a lifestyle choice and which one is not. That is all.
Something tells me the ratio of single, 24yo guys to everyone else commenting on this one is roughly 100:1.
119, do the world a favor and don't have kids.
121, it's possible for a person to have kids without the employer offering paid maternity leave. How about...unpaid leave, just like everyone else who takes time off for personal projects (writing a book, traveling, etc). For examples of how this is done, see all human history prior to 1960.
Pregnancy is considered short-term disability in most states, 119.
But it's also a lifestyle choice for you to play, say, rugby on the weekend. Suppose you are somewhere north of 30 but decide to keep playing. When you tear your achilles tendon and have to be out of the office for 6 weeks recovering from surgery, then have to leave regularly for daily physical therapy appointments for the several months that follow your return to the office, should we just not pay you because you made a lifestyle choice?
123, if you're having a birth and some complication arises that requires you to be hospitalized for a long time, paid leave is fine. That's an unexpected medical condition that arises from a lifestyle choice.
Notice how I don't get four months of paid leave to play rugby itself? Nor do I get four months of paid leave for feeling weak and tired after the rugby?
BTW - the story 16 tells is 100% false.
123, At your age you really should know the difference between intentionally choosing to put yourself in a disabled condition (being pregnant for longer than the time it takes to get an abortion) and involuntarily becoming disabled (your rugby player).
Playing rugby past the age of 30 is intentionally choosing to put yourself in a disabled condition. Just sayin'.
All you people yammering about personal choice, I'm sure you are not just pro-choice, but actively in favor of abortions at the mere whim of a the mother and/or were abstinent until marriage.
Otherwise, you might want to consider a world in which every professional woman puts it on lockdown until the moment they are ready and willing to leave the workforce forever.
Me personally, I like living in a world where girls like to have sex for fun, my spouse can share the economic burden of supporting the family, and abortions are a worst-case-scenario proposition instead of something that comes free with the purchase of a milkshake.
--Elie
The elimination of four months of paid leave means the woman will have to leave the work force for the rest of her life? I don't think so.
Elie, if you're married (dead) why do you like living in a world where girls have sex for fun? What's in it for you?
Elie -- As a husband with a pregnant wife about to go on maturity leave, I think most of us would agree that we would rather not do away with the benefit. The problem many have is treating it like an entitlement. Something that working women have "earned." Its nature -- neither fair or unfair. I am sure that they would like to have a long maternity leave to bond with the baby and recover. But they have to recognize that the employer has a company to run and paying them to fulfill a mother-role may not be in the company's best interest. The two sides should enter into an agreement as to what each is willing to accept when they enter an employment contract. And pointing to the fact that someone was exercising the benefit that was agreed upon is no more relevant when its maternity leave then when the laid off employee had an inflated salary or a company car.
@97 - HAPPY MOTHERS' DAY!!!!
-Mom, lawyer, partner w/ 4000 sq ft & the Lexus :-)
Yes, you can have it all.....
64 - They won't do it because they'll get sued, not because they are wrong.
Stay classy Milbank!
If I owned a business and I had a female employee that I would have to pay while she sits at home b/c of maternity leave, well, that's something I would strive to avoid. The whole maternity leave plan is a joke in the US. Maternity leave should be unpaid leave, plain and simple.
And Elie, we all know how dumb you are. Don't open your mouth about whether abortions are okay or not. Please.
Elie, you are a moron.
The big law douchebags who resent women taking maternity leave are completely hilarious. Get over your resentment already. Big law offers tons of paid maternity leave-- far beyond what federal law requires--for a reason (to attract bright women attorneys), and if you have a problem with it, take it up with your management committees. You all would be pathetic if you didn't fail to evoke pathos.
Of course, nothing prevents a firm from laying off a pregnant woman or a woman on maternity leave (as long as they're not motivated by the pregnancy)-- it's just quite cold, and, due to sites like this one, really bad pr. Smooth move, Milbank.
It's threads like this that make me and my vagina so very proud to be part of biglaw.
I hope the men on this board have daughters some day.
This is a really sad thread, but good to see my boss is posting - hey #6! Our 1st year is pregnant and the big boss is pissed off!!! Childless-by-choice female partner is even madder!!! Poor 1st year didn't know we had a No Procreating Rule here. Just wait until she pops out the little guy and she realizes it's virtually impossible to be a full time partner track lawyer and a new mommy. They will make her pay for her decision to do this....over and over and over....until she throws in the white towel and goes away.
Pay attention female law students!
139 - oh honey, don't fool yourself. #6 is a 2L who is still super curious about what it might be like to be bare-naked with a girl. He thinks by invoking the "we" with respect to partners in charge of firms that he's somehow already a part of that super special club and that they just don't know it yet.
131 -- maturity leave? I think a lot of people around here could use a bit of that.
how many foreigners were fired by milbank?
Well, at some point, the species must be perpetuated, right? And who better to do it than combos of all you impressive, accomplished biglaw types. Only problem is, the xx's are the only ones who can - spawn more of YOU. Think about it. Nobody's looking for a free lunch, just enough minimally paid downtime (that invariably gets made up pre and post leave, X2), to allow propagation. You middle aged white guys, and future middle aged white guys, do want to see more of your kind in the plowing fields of the future, don't you? And even if you could (you CAN'T) YOU don't want to be PG and breastfeeding and breastpumping for 2 years per kid, right? So who will do it? Your secretary??? Give up your dynasty now. We'll take over and call it Herland. Things will go better, you'll see......
Best wishes.
Well, at some point, the species must be perpetuated, right? And who better to do it than combos of all you impressive, accomplished biglaw types. Only problem is, the xx's are the only ones who can - spawn more of YOU. Think about it. Nobody's looking for a free lunch, just enough minimally paid downtime (that invariably gets made up pre and post leave, X2), to allow propagation. You middle aged white guys, and future middle aged white guys, do want to see more of your kind in the plowing fields of the future, don't you? And even if you could (you CAN'T) YOU don't want to be PG and breastfeeding and breastpumping for 2 years per kid, right? So who will do it? Your secretary??? Give up your dynasty now. We'll take over and call it Herland. Things will go better, you'll see......
Best wishes.
I could have sworn our arrangement with the firms was that we work in exchange for money. That is, if they don't pay us, we don't work--but if we don't work, they don't have to pay us.
If an associate is popping out a kid or laying around at home like a beached whale while preparing to do so, they aren't working. So, why should Milbank be on the hook for that? Plus, the associate will never be as productive after doing so and start developing ideas that mergers can be pushed back or deadlines ignored because their little retard stuck a fork in the electrical socket. Then the guy associates and the women associates who aren't looking for a free ride have to pick up their slack.
I love watching the female attorneys that think they're involved parents while billing 2000+ hours a year. LOL. When you're asking someone in Operations to do your child's homework for them, you are an epic fail as a parent. Yes, I have witnessed this.
all foreign attorneys who were hired in the last two years or so were laid off
145 - did your mom not hug you enough when you were a kid? No pony for your 8th birthday? In case you were wondering, you're single because women can smell your hatred and contempt for them a mile away.
37 and 56: spot on. These "men" complaining about maternity leave are the same swag-less nerds who never get any play. Their lonely lives are mitigated only by dumping on our female colleagues who deign to propagate the species (don't we need more kids from smarter people anyway?).
My wife is a M.D. and we have some kids. Her dedication to both career and family is so beyond your feeble minds, you "men" are not worthy to sniff her stank, sweaty panties after a rigorous workout.
113, 135, 136: STFU.
Wait, 146, I'm confused. Why don't you love watching male attorneys suffer the same fate? Are moms the only ones who are less involved as parents when they bill 2000+ hours a year? Weird.
I am a junior associate at a big NYC law firm and my firm could not have been any more genuinely supportive when I told them that I was pregnant (I was surprised). Coincidentally, my firm also did not lay off associates or staff during the downturn. No wonder we have a good reputation.
No one likes a sense of entitlement, and this is not an entitlement, but a fact of life and biology. Big law wants to attract good female associates, people have families, women need to recover, and infants need care. Big law offers extra benefits to women because they believe they gain a business benefit from it. Whether that benefit is attracting good female attorneys, having a good workplace reputation, or preventing premature departures (big law spends so much money developing associates, to watch good talent leave within a couple of years just doesn't make business sense).
If people who agree with 6 have any management say at law firms (I doubt that they do), identify your firm for everyone. That way others who think that way can join you. I doubt that your firm will be very good.
The feminists here (male and female alike) need to 86 the predictable, "you must never get laid if you think X about women!" nonsense. Most women really don't care if you're a little sexist. They really don't.
Besides, it's hardly sexist to point out that the concept of legally mandated maternity leave is fundamentally unfair and business inefficient. It's a reasonable argument that, while many may disagree with it on the merits, if presented cogently just isn't going to send most women running for the door. Just isn't.
151 - Given your views of the apparent efficiency of maternity leave benefits, I'll assume you'd have no problem if we repealed Title VII and all state level maternity leave laws. Right? I mean, it's sink or swim, according to you. No business in their right mind would scare away women by not offering these benefits, and so we don't need these laws in place.
The law firm of Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP currently has a great need for associates in its Washington office. As reflected on the firm's Website, of its 113 "Attorneys and other Professionals," only 18 are "associates." Of the 32 "Attorneys and Other Professionals" in the "Health Care" practice group, only three are associates. The needs are great., but the opportunities are equally great. Associate bonuses are based on billable hours. With little more than 10 percent of the office professionals being associates, the amount of billable hours available is huge. Associate bonuses can run as high as $70,000 per year. For expedited interviewing, call Elliott Portnoy at 202.408.6433 or e-mail him at eportnoy@sonnenschein.com.
The law firm of Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP currently has a great need for associates in its Washington office. As reflected on the firm's Website, of its 113 "Attorneys and other Professionals," only 18 are "associates." Of the 32 "Attorneys and Other Professionals" in the "Health Care" practice group, only three are associates. The needs are great., but the opportunities are equally great. Associate bonuses are based on billable hours. With little more than 10 percent of the office professionals being associates, the amount of billable hours available is huge. Associate bonuses can run as high as $70,000 per year. For expedited interviewing, call Elliott Portnoy at 202.408.6433 or e-mail him at eportnoy@sonnenschein.com.
The law firm of Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP currently has a great need for associates in its Washington office. As reflected on the firm's Website, of its 113 "Attorneys and other Professionals," only 18 are "associates." Of the 32 "Attorneys and Other Professionals" in the "Health Care" practice group, only three are associates. The needs are great., but the opportunities are equally great. Associate bonuses are based on billable hours. With little more than 10 percent of the office professionals being associates, the amount of billable hours available is huge. Associate bonuses can run as high as $70,000 per year. For expedited interviewing, call Elliott Portnoy at 202.408.6433 or e-mail him at eportnoy@sonnenschein.com.
The law firm of Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP currently has a great need for associates in its Washington office. As reflected on the firm's Website, of its 113 "Attorneys and other Professionals," only 18 are "associates." Of the 32 "Attorneys and Other Professionals" in the "Health Care" practice group, only three are associates. The needs are great., but the opportunities are equally great. Associate bonuses are based on billable hours. With little more than 10 percent of the office professionals being associates, the amount of billable hours available is huge. Associate bonuses can run as high as $70,000 per year. For expedited interviewing, call Elliott Portnoy at 202.408.6433 or e-mail him at eportnoy@sonnenschein.com.
Just because you are making $160K per year for your work does not mean other people dictate your life about something as important as family.
153 -- really? I smell a law student. Did you even spend a second thinking about this issue?
Why do big law firms offer so much more than the statutory minimum?
Hint: it has to do with highly skilled labor. Now think about who Title VII and state maternity laws are really there to protect. I bet it is not big time NYC lawyers.
159 - I've evidently spent more than the couple of seconds you thought thinking about the issue. Simply because a business offers benefits to entice employees and say competitive, doesn't mean they have the desire or the intention of treating those same employees as they normally would if they didn't actually use those benefits.
It's marketing, pure and simple. Reel them in, then treat them as efficiently as you can without getting hit with a CR action. One need only google the matter to see that, indeedy, female associates who get pregnant and take maternity leave often find their hats being handed to them in not-so-subtle ways upon their return. A la this very post (albeit, she was likely let go for economic reasons). These not-so-subtle marginalizations sometimes end up in courts. But, what for ever for?? We clearly don't NEED the laws that give those courts jurisdiction over such claims. Not at the biglaw level!
And no, not a law student.
It is simply awful for lawyers to treat people this way. As members of the bar, the partners in that firm have responsibilities to junior lawyers. Why doesn't the state bar do anything about this kind of nonsense? Put aside the nonsense arguments regarding section 90 of the restatement. I hope the state bar puts a case on at least some of the lowlifes at firms who engage in this kind of reprehensible behavior.
So much for women making progress in the workplace.
******** Hey, how about "Useless Law School Graduate leave"? Pay someone who just graduated from law school 75k to sit around like a "beached whale" for 4 months, and then, *maybe* return to work....if your firm doesn't fire you first. Oh. Wait. Latham already did that!!!
The commenters who believe maternity leave is a feminist sentiment are so short sited.
Lots of Napoleons on this board! See you at our 11am team meeting !
All the vag power on here is making this board smell like fish.
Law firms' competition on maternity leave benefits has little to do their efforts to improve the quality of work at their firms or increase billable hours. It's really driven by feminist politics, and more importantly today, the economic need to have female attorneys in order to attract business. It is simply not true that generous maternity leave is offered because the firm couldn't staff itself fully with male attorneys and retain the same level of excellence/productivity. This isn't a dig on the quality of female attorneys, but firms aren't offering them more benefits because they're so specially talented as lawyers.
158 -- No, but it should mean that if you keep making decisions for the benefit of your family, at the expense of the employer, they can stop paying you $160K.
125 -
16's story is right on the money, not "100% false." Latham did in fact lay off some 2nd years by pulling names out of a hat while they were present in the room. I know two of them, and they independently gave me the same story.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's quite transparent and lets the people affected know that the decision-making process was truly random. Doing it while they were in the room may be going a bit overboard on the transparency, but getting laid off is getting laid off.
Sadly not shocked by Milbank's move with the pregnant associate. Anything is possible (and it's legal, anyhow) in this economy. In March O'Melveny laid off an associate weeks away from going off on maternity leave (8 mo.+ pregnant) and a junior associate with low hours because of being out for 5 mo. of medical leave.
Um...what does "TTT" mean?
Um...what does "TTT" mean?
And what does V50 mean? Not all of us speak the lingo of Big Law losers.
169 and 170:
Hang around this site more and you'll get the hang of it:
TTT = Third Tier Toilet (applied to law schools and law firms that people don't like/respect)
V ## = Vault # refers to the top firms listed in Vault, so V50 = Top 50 Firm as ranked by Vault
This is similar to T ## which refers to a range of top law schools as ranked by US News, e.g. T3, T5, T10
But men don't have to make that "hard choice" about whether they want to have kids or a career, right?
But men don't have to make that "hard choice" about whether they want to have kids or a career, right?
But men don't have to make that "hard choice" about whether they want to have kids or a career, right?
85 - you're on to something there. As another commenter has noted, Milbank TTTweed is a "mean and psychotic" firm. Their sexist and racist attitudes are simply a byproduct of the psychopathology of their senior partners. Too bad for the minorities who had the misfortune of working there...
166 - maybe in one office, but that wasn't how they handled it everywhere. Absolutely did not happen that way in LA.
172-174
Men make that decision every day that we come in to work. Have a life or be a big firm lawyer. I would love to stay home with the kids or take 4 months off to hang out with them. Its not going to happen though.
"But men don't have to make that "hard choice" about whether they want to have kids or a career, right?"
No, we don't, because of nature. It's interesting how women think it's perfectly fair that they should have 100% of the rights to abort (even if that means aborting a child against the father's will or having the child and sticking the father with child support bills even when she knows he does not want the baby) because of "nature" but think that laws should forcibly correct the situation when nature works against them.
It should be noted that Milbank didn't just lay off a woman on maternity leave. They also laid off an associate who took advantage of the new extended personal leave policy that the firm made such big deal about last year. Associate comes back from leave, gets laid off a few months later. Among the staff laid off were a staff member who took several months of medical leave after having a heart attack and a staff member who took several months of administrative leave after the death of a spouse. Apparently, the message to the remaining Milbankers is this: take advantage of any of our leave policies at your peril - we are happy to grant you leave, but know that we will put a target on your back as you head out the door.
It's more than a little chilling.
I have no problem with maternity leave, however, when a female attorney returns to work, PLEASE GOD don't let her work part time, flex hours or "mommy hours". My personal experience (as a paralegal and a female), is that these mommy hours are only possible because other employees (like me) pick up the slack for Mommy and work longer hours as a result. Of course Mommies love me, because they can delegate so much to me, and fly out the door with confidence at 3 pm (to avoid that late arrival fee at daycare), knowing that I will handle whatever comes up in their absence, staying as late as necessary to get the work done.
all this aside, there are some really hot women at Skadden new york.
Milbank billable hours are down 20% compared with 2008 in the first quarter of 2009. I will not be surprised if more get slashed.
179 - chilling is right. Milbank TTTweed could have easily waited until the associate finished up her maternity leave (just a matter of a few months at most) and then quietly terminated her (the firm has been doing stealth layoffs for months), but the firm clearly wanted to send a message -- a cold, inhuman and classless message. Whatever the merits of the social policies underlying maternity leave/pregnancy in the workplace (and people can argue about these things), the message at Milbank TTTweed is clear.
Milbank is a bizarre, horrible firm run by bizarre, horrible people. Racism and sexism are in the firm's DNA.