More Law Schools + More Lawyers + Recession = FUBAR
Every time you open a law school, somewhere a kitten dies.
The University of North Texas is pushing to open a new, mean green law school:
Dallas will be home to the state’s next public law school under a bill that won tentative House approval today.Budget woes mean funding for the law school remains uncertain, at least for the next two years. At that point, officials could come back to the Legislature again for funding, or seek tuition revenue bonds instead. But for now, the budget the Legislature is poised to approve does not include the $40 million needed to establish the school.
Still, North Texas lawmakers said simply getting approval for the University of North Texas Law School — which already passed the Senate — is a great achievement. This is the third legislative session in which they’ve pushed for it.
This seems like a good time to mention that there are 200 accredited law schools already pumping out J.D.s like rabbits on fertility drugs. Compare that — as some commenters did last night — with the 130 or so accredited medical schools. In terms of exclusivity, the legal profession is on the beach at Bethpage Black, while everybody else is enjoying an excellent tee time at Winged Foot.
It’s not even like North Texas needed a law school. More details after the jump.
Even the Texas State Higher Education Board didn’t think that Dallas was in dire need of a law school:
Dallas lawmakers have had to make their case over the requests of other regions for graduate schools. An amendment added to the UNT law school bill today would commission a study on how to bring a law school to South Texas. The bill, with the amendment, now returns to the Senate for consideration.And the region’s lawmakers have had to battle the recommendations of Texas’ Higher Education Coordinating Board, which has said there’s no urgent need for a law school in North Texas.
But North Texas lawmakers, who clearly should be reading Above the Law instead of contributing to the oversupply of lawyers, really want a public law school in Dallas:
North Texas legislators vehemently disagree. They say that while the region has two private law schools — at Southern Methodist University in Dallas and Texas Wesleyan University in Fort Worth — there’s no option for students who can’t afford private school tuition.The Dallas-Fort Worth area is the largest in the country without a public law school. Houston, meanwhile, has two, while Austin and Lubbock each have one.
Are Dallas area students who can’t afford private law school tuition aware that in recent times, scientific breakthroughs have lead to the invention of the “airplane”? Do they know that these contraptions — first contemplated by the renaissance thinker Leonardo da Vinci, who has been popularized in works such as The Da Vinci Code, and Wikipedia — are capable of traveling vast distances at great speeds? Verily, one can now cover the immense expanse of territory between Dallas and Austin with the ease of a majestic eagle, and the speed of a terrifying falcon.
The UNT Law School, which died in the House on a last-minute technicality in 2007, is also expected to be a boon for downtown Dallas: the historic Old City Hall has been set aside for the school, and the city of Dallas has offered more than $14 million in bond funds to get the facility ready, plus $2 million in start-up costs.
Oh yeah. I forgot. Law schools make money. It’s like opening a mint. It really doesn’t matter if there are any jobs available for law school graduates, or if there is any actual need for the institution, or if anyone can think of a better way to spend $40 million.
It’s profit baby, no other motive is necessary.
Texas House OKs UNT law school in Dallas [Dallas News]
(143) Comments
Comments
This is a colossally stupid idea.
terrible, terrible, terrible.
Elie needs fried food
Like Texas needs this law school.
Don't mess with TTTexas.
- Above the Haiku
Downtown Dallas could use a law school. More restrooms for homeless people...
THERE ARE TOO MANY FUCKING LAW SCHOOLS. HOW IS THIS RESPONSIBLE? WHERE ARE THESE GRADUATES GOING TO WORK? STOP ACCREDITING NEW SCHOOLS!!!! (in fact, eliminate 50 law schools, at least).
What news source are you quoting? There is no public law school in Cook County, Illinois, home to 6 million people. I think that exceeds the population of Dallas-Fort Worth.
"Budget woes mean funding for the law school remains uncertain, at least for the next two years. At that point, officials could come back to the Legislature again for funding, or seek tuition revenue bonds instead. But for now, the budget the Legislature is poised to approve does not include the $40 million needed to establish the school."
I'm going to put this out there for those of you that did better in Contracts than me. If the funding doesn't come through, and students reasonably rely on the promise of a public law school in the Dallas-Forth Worth area, would these students have a claim... perhaps one sounding in contract law?
This is a worse idea than using lasguns where shields are present.
how about that money be used to improve the existing schools. didn't UT need to raise tuition this year for lack of state funding?
I swear to God, we need to launch a campaign to take over the ABA's accreditation committee. I have no idea why they continue to pump out bad ideas. First, approving all of the TTT and TTTT. Next okaying outsourcing doc review (which will fuck someone over. Wait until some random Indian reviewer sells proprietary info to the highest bigger and/or the rash of bribes against executives cheating on their spouses) and now this new law school. Ugh.
Who the hell is in charge of accreditation at the ABA? ATL needs to do a story on these assholes.
The sad thing is that the big chatter was for a law school to be established in "the Valley" in Texas -- the southeast coast -- where the population is poorer, the geographic location is farther away, and there may actually be a need for a law school. The article notes that the bill was amended to commission a "study" for a law school down there. Meh.
But I don't think the analogy to med schools is apt. Many people go to law school without the intent of ever practicing law, and law school is not a total waste of time if you don't take a bar exam. There are many things you can do with a law degree outside of practicing. It's helpful in business, accounting, politics, government, management, consulting, etc. Med school, on the other hand, is much more about training people to be physicians. Sure, there's the occasional doctor who gets his J.D. and becomes a PI attorney, or the M.D. who gets involved in health care policy or goes on to research instead of practice, but, overall, the degree is much less flexible.
Further, you presume that we need the same amount of J.D.s and M.D.(/D.O.)s. That's far from clear.
8 made me laugh despite myself.
ABA is the worst guild ever
10 - No one is presuming that we NEED the same amount. As was stated "in terms of exclusivity" if you chose law school over med school you dicked up. That's all.
No one should ever become a member of the ABA...fuck them. Until they decide to stop screwing over the profession that they're supposed to be serving, they are completely and utterly fucking useless
6 - www.law.niu.edu
This is a horrible idea. I attended a tier 2 school and I haven't been able to get document review work since late last year. My loans are at 150K and the interest in quickly accruing. I am sitting in my parent's basement, send out dozens of resumes a day, and am waiting for redemption.
15 - You were screwed despite new schools opening. Sorry.
Didn't you know that every American citizen is by law entitled to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and a public law school within a 30-minute commute?
9 -
Don't blame the ABA. Back in the 1990's, the Clinton Justice Department alleged that the ABA was using its accreditation standards in a way that prevented law schools from starting. More particularly, the DOJ alleged that law school professors and deans had captured the process and used the standards to advance their interests. Some of the standards the ABA used were alleged to have been used to set faculty salaries. It was a weak case, but the ABA entered into a consent decree, and agreed to overhaul the standards. As a result, anyone who can rub two nickels together can start a law school and get ABA approval. That's why we have Regents, Cooley, Appalachian, Western State, Chapman, Ave Maria, Barry, and a whole host of TTT schools. So don't blame the ABA, blame the Clinton DOJ.
18 - You left GW out of that list.
14 -
Northern Illinois University is in DeKalb, not Cook, County.
6
For deferred associates: What is the most prestigious public interest or pro bono gig out there?
OHMYLORD. We already have at least twice as many schools as are needed. PLEASE GOD MAKE THIS INSANITY STOP.
As to six's point, the greater Boston region (which includes Worcester, Providence, and southern NH) is home to about 7.5 million people and zero public law schools (the only pub law schools in New England are in Orono, ME, and West Hartford, CT). That has to be larger than Dallas-Ft. Worth.
Massachusetts could use a public law school, if only to save the futures of the hundreds and hundreds of students who pay upwards of $60k/year to attend Northeastern, Suffolk, or New England Law Schools. Ponzi schemes, all of them.
AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!! WTF!!
NY is opening 3 more. Somebody stop this, stop it right fucking now!!!
21 - You seem to be confused about the meaning of "prestigious." Or "public interest." Or both.
There are no prestigious public interest gigs out there. Don't you get? If you are deferred, your biglaw (and hence your legal career) is essentially over.
Given that I have $250,000 in student debt and no job, I would rather fire a lasgun at a Holtzmann shield and induce a nuclear explosion right in the middle of Atreides defenses on Arrakis instead of hearing about the idiocy of opening further law schools in the middle of the Great Recession.
We don't need any more law schools--public or private--anywhere. It's that simple.
21 - ACLU. And no, you won't get it with a BigLaw resume.
28 -
I got the sickest vendetta, when it come to the cheddar. You play with my paper, you gonna meet my Beretta.
7, was that a purposefully stupid question?
21 / 29 - What about the NAACP?
This will have NO impact on SMU graduates.
SMU owns Dallas!!!
SMU, the Fordham of Texas
10 - Look I don't think anyone here believes the medical and legal professions are an apple-to-apple comparison. However, that doesn't change the fact that there's an over supply of lawyers.
You're right that a lot of people with J.Ds don't practice law and are in professions like business, politics, etc... But it isn't entirely clear to me that an oversupply of J.Ds isn't at least a part of the reason for that.
I don't see why law schools can't focus their efforts of developing practitioners and also offer some sort of hybrid degree for people who intend to move into other sectors.
The real obstacle to doing this is that too many people enter law school THINKING they'd like to practice law, but have no real clue what they're getting into. Contrast this with
(1) Business school: Usually require 4 years of work experience (and GMATs aren't everything)
(2) Science and engineering doctoral programs: Prior research experience, strong academic background in particular field, GRE scores aren't even close to important and are mostly used to make sure someone isn't retarded).
(3) Medical school: (Strong academic background, performance on a subject-based test - MCAT, volunteer/work experience related to medicine)
To get into law school you need a GPA and an LSAT score. It almost doesn't matter whether you have a 4.0 in Basket Weaving from U of Phoenix, or a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Stanford. You don't even really need to have shown any interest in law.
23 - You forgot BU.
FROM ABA, after 1985
1986: --none--
1987: --none--
1988: St. Thomas (Florida), Widener (Harrisburg)
1989: Regent
1990: --none--
1991: DC
1992: Quinnipiac
1993: --none--
1994: Seattle, Texas Wesleyan
1995: Roger Williams
***CLINTON DOJ INTERVENTION***
1996: Thomas Jefferson
1997: --none--
1998: Chapman
1999: Florida Coastal
2000: UNLV
2001: Appalachian
2002: Ave Maria, Barry
2003: St. Thomas (Minnesota)
2004: Florida A&M, Florida International
2005: John Marshall (Atlanta), Western State
2006: Charleston, Faulkner, La Verne, Liberty
2007: Phoenix
2008: Charlotte, Drexel, Elon
***plus more on the wait list***
Barkley (Kentucky), Concordia-Boise, Husson (Maine), Irvine, North Texas, Pressler (Louisiana), St. John Fisher (Rochester), SUNY Binghamton, SUNY Stony Brook, Wilkes
36 - is there a link you recommend to learn more about what the DOJ did in 1996?
"SEC Attorneys Under FBI Investigation"
http://tinyurl.com/qoqcpv
http://dealbreaker.com/2009/05/breaking-cbs-reporting-two-sec.php
Look...people...the problem is not necessarily too many lawyers. I think we're all over reacting here. There is an immense need for lawyers outside of the little big law bubble where most of you commenters exist. The problem is that there is no one to pay for the appropriate amount of positions at pro bono legal service organizations or at government agencies. There was an article about 2 months ago describing the woes of the understaffed USAO offices, the post today about how the SEC needs more lawyers and I'm sure if you asked any legal aid attorney they'd tell you they're just as understaffed. The fact is the funding isn't there, though it needs to be. It's time to re-think the profession (and perhaps our entire educational system). If law school was much much cheaper (subsidized somehow) and we made a commitment to give our governmental legal entities more funding...we might only have to drop accredited law schools down to pre-1988 levels, since not a single law school on that list is worth a damn anyway...
35 - BU grads can find jobs SOMEWHERE, even if the pay isn't great. I know people from Northeastern still looking for their first job two years out - people with top undergrad credentials. The school is CV poison. I thought about including Southern New England School of Law in that list of shame, but it might be considered "outside" of greater Boston (it is between the industrial cities of Fall River and New Bedford on the southern coast of the state).
36 - what the hell is Husson College in Maine? I went to one of the CBB schools up in the great Down East, and even I have never heard of it.
23
Every time Elie gets hungry, somewhere a litter of kittens dies.
40, CBB = TTT. Congrats on overpaying to live in the tundra for four years. No one outside of the Northeast has heard of your school.
I don't know what T1 grads/big law assiciates have to worry about--it's not as if the grads of these new TTT schools will ever be able to compete for their jobs. They'll go work as dublic defenders or start their own practice etc. They'll sue your fortune 500 clients and give you a chance to crush them and feel good about yourself. All i all it's fine by me.
I think the average medical school class is like 150 students, with 250 probably being about the largest. What about law school? Average class size is probably closer to 300. And how many people need a lawyer compared to needing a doctor?
We've been following this for a while and it looks like most attorneys are against it while most developers and politicians are for it:
http://www.youngtexaslawyer.com/2009/05/13/unt-law-school-wins-house-approval/
My life mission is to destroy the ABA.
46 - All you have to do is inspire religious fervor in a band of desert dwellers who hate the ABA, and also turn out to much greater in number than the ABA realized.
The ABA doesn't need to cap the number of accredited law schools--as someone else pointed out, many people get law degrees and never take (or pass) the bar. What the should happen is that the state bar associations should cap the number of licenses they give out--that is, simply cap the number of licensed attorneys in your state. How to do this? Each year count the number of lawyers that die, retire, or get disbarred (looking at you Elie), and then simply give out that many more licenses. Say you have 200 licenses to give, then the 200 students with the top bar exam scores get to practice law. The rest get to start blogs about people who practice law. The added risk of taking on debt without the guarantee of becoming a lawyer will scare many of the less qualified away. In short, the people too dumb to be lawyers (again, looking at you Elie) won't become lawyers.
THAT's how you run a guild. Let people "learn how to think like lawyers" all they want--restrict how many actually get to become lawyers.
Problem Solved. Thank me later. Oh, and fuck UNT.
INSANE. TX already has too many schools. it's a fucking scam. all it is. $$$$
The Black course is nicer than Winged Foot.
This is such a baaaaddddd idea no one said
FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is a FUBAR like the healthy version of a Snickers?
As lawyers know better than most, form is very important. Do the comments officially start at 51 then?
@53 -
Yes, those who posted earlier were merely prelude to the truly insightful comments to be posted after I have declared
FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. yes, I have no life - but I do have a job and therefore am deprive of the joy of firstdom on most occaisions.....
love,
@51
51/54 - Haha yours is the latest "first I've ever seen. I move to have all posts prior to 51 stricken from the record (except 46 & 47 because that's hilarious).
- 53
* Provisionally approved
+ Probation
A
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AVE MARIA SCHOOL OF LAW (2002)
B
BALTIMORE (1972)
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BAYLOR (1931)
BOSTON COLLEGE (1932)
BOSTON UNIVERSITY (1925)
BRIGHAM YOUNG (1974)
BROOKLYN (1937)
C
CALIFORNIA - Berkeley (1923)
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CORNELL(1923)
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D
DAYTON (1975)
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DREXEL* (2008)
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DUQUESNE (1960)
E
ELON* (2008)
EMORY(1923)
F
FAULKNER * (2006)
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G
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H
HAMLINE (1975)
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HAWAII (1974)
HOFSTRA (1971)
HOUSTON (1950)
HOWARD (1931)
I
IDAHO (1925)
ILLINOIS (1923)
INDIANA - Bloomington (1923)
INDIANA - Indianapolis (1944)
INTER-AMERICAN (1969)
IOWA (1923)
J
THE JOHN MARSHALL LAW SCHOOL (1951)
JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL'S SCHOOL (1958)
K
KANSAS (1923)
KENTUCKY (1925)
L
LAVERNE* (2006)
LIBERTY* (2006)
LEWIS AND CLARK (1970)
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LOUISVILLE (1931)
LOYOLA - Chicago (1925)
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LOYOLA - New Orleans (1931)
M
MAINE (1962)
MARQUETTE (1925)
MARYLAND (1930)
MCGEORGE (1969)
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MIAMI (1941)
MICHIGAN STATE (1941)
MICHIGAN (1923)
MINNESOTA (1923)
MISSISSIPPI COLLEGE (1980)
MISSISSIPPI (1930)
MISSOURI - Columbia (1923)
MISSOURI - Kansas City (1936)
MONTANA (1923)
N
NEBRASKA (1923)
NEVADA (2000)
NEW ENGLAND (1969)
NEW MEXICO (1948)
NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL (1954)
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY (1930)
NORTH CAROLINA (1923)
NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL (1950)
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NORTHEASTERN (1969)
NORTHERN ILLINOIS (11978)
NORTHERN KENTUCKY (1954)
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NOTRE DAME (1925)
NOVA SOUTHEASTERN (1975)
O
OHIO NORTHERN (1948)
OHIO STATE (1923)
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OKLAHOMA CITY (1960)
OREGON (1923)
P
PACE (1978)
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PHOENIX* (2007)
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PUERTO RICO (1945)
Q
QUINNIPIAC (1992)
R
REGENT (1989)
RICHMOND (1928)
ROGER WILLIAMS (1995)
RUTGERS - Camden (1950)
RUTGERS - Newark (1941)
S
ST. JOHN'S (1937)
SAINT LOUIS (1924)
ST. MARY'S (1948)
ST. THOMAS (Florida) (1988)
ST. THOMAS (Minnesota) (2003)
SAMFORD (1949)
SAN DIEGO (1961)
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SEATTLE (1994)
SETON HALL (1951)
SOUTH CAROLINA (1925)
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SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (1924)
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SOUTHERN METHODIST (1927)
SOUTH TEXAS (1959)
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STANFORD (1923)
STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK-Buffalo (1936)
STETSON (1930)
SUFFOLK (1953)
SYRACUSE (1923)
T
TEMPLE (1933)
TENNESSEE (1925)
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U
UTAH (1927)
V
VALPARAISO (1929)
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W
WAKE FOREST (1936)
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Y
YALE (1923)
YESHIVA (1978)
Elon Law School??? WTF!
law.elon.edu
http://law.slu.edu/??? WTF?
7 you are a genius. They would have a claim under . . . promissory estoppel. I wonder is there anything in the Restatements that would support this claim.
What, no comments in the Career Center thread? I would go to Kirkland over any of those firms in about half a second. Then Quinn. Then Cleary. The rest are you just wouldn't want to be at whatever their Vault ranking or can't get hired at (ie. Wachtell).
Interesting that no one's looking at Latham and Weil. I wonder why. Oh, yeah. They either fire everyone or defer incoming associates to 2000 when-never
Are we going to have some threads where we can pass on our 'pearls of wisdom' closer to OCI, anyway?
56 - Shut up please.
Hey guys, I just opened up a law school in my basement. C'mon in, give me some money (cash only) and I'll teach you everything you need to know about promissory estoppel. Did I mention, compared with these other sh*tcan schools, the school of my basement would probably rank as a Tier 2 school?
61 =elon grad.
Am I gay?
sTTTupid fucking TTTExans
having played both courses, you are nuts if you think the black course is nicer than either course at Winged Foot.
I jerked for 3 years while attending UT law. That makes me more than qualified to teach at UNT law.
HOW WILL I CONTINUE TO GET OVERPAID AFTER THIS CRAP?
Jerked what?
this makes no sense, didn't fuckin Drexel just get accredited to this last a year or two ago, WTF??
I think more than a kitten dies...unless of course, that kitten represents all that is HOLY and RATIONAL.
It's a business. Nothing wrong with selling a dream.
Only an ATTTreides would use a lasgun. House Harkonnen to 190!
May UNT be devoured by shai hulud
Dear 8,
Great comment. I liked it quite a bit.
75 - Thank you.
- 8
42 - CBB = Colby, Bowdoin, Bates. Most people have heard of them. Thanks for playing, though.
Oh man, the dune meme is pricelesss. I love you atl, I love you so much.
And seriously, fuck the ABA. They will make themselves (and all of us) irrelevant in the next couple decades. Have fun competing with indian and chinese lawyers...
Great article. Now please also go after the new schools planned at Stony Brook, Binghamton, Rochester, PG County Maryland, Hartford, Irvine and El Paso.
I am sure i am missing a few, but every time I read one of these new schools being built with TAXPAYER MONEY I think it is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Rochester even did a "feasibility study" by some prof at Roger Williams who apparently didn't even look at the need for new lawyers in NY; only that there were additional college students who wanted to go to law school and couldn't get in anywhere else because, well, they aren't that smart.
No more law schools! The field is SO overpopulated and has been for the last 25-30 years. Never mind the gazillion highly qualified new layoffs, there will never be enough legitimate demand for this many lawyers. especially from marginal schools. Make it stop!
1 said all that needs to be said.
This sucks. I'm in Texas, and I haven't even been able to get a job yet!
How do my legislators like the idea of even more unemployed law degree holders? I mean, it's just more competition during reëlection season, no?
they need to open more medical schools if anything....drive down the cost of healthcare
77 -- 42 here. I know what CBB stands for. When I left Palo Alto (heard of it?) to go to HLS, I ran into a lot of you "Down East" morons. When I heard that you paid $40,000+ a year for a school no one outside of the Northeast has hear of, I laughed so hard that I shit my pants a little.
CBB = TTT.
I agree that there are definitely too many law schools. All tier 3s and 4s should never have existed.
@83
They ARE opening more medical schools. For example, Hofstra is planning to open one 2010. (though I dunno how good a brand Hofstra is.)
While there are 130 Medical Schools, there are also 28 Osteopathic Medicine Schools. So the total is slightly higher. Also, there are some medical schools with multiple campuses. Florida seems to be the most weird about this. The University of Florida College of Medicine has two locations (Gainesville & Jacksonville) while Florida State University College of Medicine has 6!! (Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, Fort Pierce, Orlando, Pensacola, and Sarasota).
But yea, the previous comment @ 44 is a good point. Medical school classes are dwarfed by law school ones.
On the other hand, you have nurses doing a lot of medical work now. You also have this group of people called "Physician Assistants" who aren't clerks or secretaries like one might think. They actually do many doctor-like things like prescribe drugs, interpret diagnostic tests, and even assist in surgeries.
comment 48 is a good idea. Though, instead of a solid number, I would first start by raising the bar passage threshold so a much lower percentage of people pass the bar.
Comon, guys in my high school used to start TTT law schools all the time. It was no big deal.
There's lost of demand for low-level law work. Shitty schools just shouldn't cost what they do. Anyone have any info on their profits? Do they make out much better than good law schools because they spent less on professors and resources but charge just as much?
33- Love it.
Hook 'em.
Regarding the law school founding-dates list, a correction is needed for Seattle U.
The School of Law was founded in 1972 as part of the University of Puget Sound (UPS) in Tacoma, WA. In 1993, the University of Puget Sound and Seattle University agreed on a transfer of the law school to Seattle University; in August 1994 the transfer was completed, and the school physically moved to the Seattle University campus in 1999.
23, The public Maine law school is in Portland, not Orono. And I believe Husson is in Bangor.
Whoever said noone had ever heard of the school CBB is a fucking idiot
Ok, I give..... What on earth is CBB??????????
Sounds like a lot of you are afraid of a little competition! whinners!
33 - PONY UP! GO MUSTANGS!
In 1995, the Department of Justice investigated the American Bar Association. DOJ filed a claim against the ABA for violating antitrust laws. DOJ alleged that the ABA wouldn't accredit for-profit law schools, inflated faculty salaries, and froze out too many law schools. The DOJ and ABA ultimately reached an agreement.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/June95/363.txt.html
In 2006, the DOJ followed up, and ABA conceded that it violated the agreement.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/press_releases/2006/216804.htm
What did this "consent agreement" do?
As of 2007, "[s]ince 1995, the ABA has accredited 19 law schools for a total of 196, seven in the last two years. That compares with three schools that received accreditation in the decade before 1995."
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/19/do-we-really-need-another-law-school/
To reduce the lawyer surplus, simply bar minorities, women, smokers, drinkers, fingernail biters, jews, and the sons of criminals from the practice of law.
"77 -- 42 here. I know what CBB stands for. When I left Palo Alto (heard of it?) to go to HLS, I ran into a lot of you "Down East" morons. When I heard that you paid $40,000+ a year for a school no one outside of the Northeast has hear of, I laughed so hard that I shit my pants a little."
84: to be fair, no one outside the Northeast matters.
I agree with 34. I think that law schools should be more like b-schools in that admissions favors students with experience. Two good reasons for this: 1) people who are only going to law school because they have nothing else to do will likely not go to law school. they'll be forced to find a job and then decide whether law school is right for them at some later time. students will be more mature and able to make good decisions about assuming education debt. 2) law school will be much more useful because your classmates will be able to add value to course discussion. I wish I had a nickel for each time some well intentioned 22 year old came up with some colossally stupid and improbable if not impossible hypothetical during a lecture. If they had just worked two or three years before coming to school they would have never dreamed up some of those questions.
"Sounds like a lot of you are afraid of a little competition!"
This was hilarious.
Here's a thought. Anyone who goes to their state legislature asking for a new law school should be asked to show three people who have job openings that can't find any law graduates from the current 200 law schools to fill them.
I am not asking them to show the legislature 150 openings or however many they plan to graduate each year -- just show them three. I guarantee they will start talking about everything but -- how there are college students with 1.5 GPAs who can't seem to get in to law school; how it will revitalize the economy in the immediate vicinity of the law school, or how it will put an otherwise shoddy undergraduate institution on the map. But before you spend state funds on new law schools, there need to be jobs.
94 -
The list of alleged consent decree violations look de minimis in relation to the original complaint. It appears that all of these offenses relate to compliance with the decree as opposed to antitrust violations. I'm surprised the ABA agreed to a $185,000 fine. Of course, I'm also surprised that the ABA agreed to the original decree.
85 - opening a law school is easy, you need a room and some lawyers to teach. A medical school is a totally different ballgame. You need such a diverse faculty that schools cannot just open up a medical school. And then there is the clinical part for which you need a hospital with real patients.
50 Dead on accurate- Obviously not private, but a nicer track.
UNT is only one letter away from being a dirty word
Can I just say, it would be really ironic if some of you posting here worked on plaintiff-side antitrust cases.
That said, JDs are becoming the equivalent of an MBA - which, due to every college opening a business school as a cash cow is worthless for the vast majority who receive it.
The problem is not too many lawyers. That only affects the low level work. The problem is that it's too hard to get high margin work. Clients aren't willing to pay exhorbinant rates because your work isn't that much better than the next guy.
You don't hear professional baseball players complaining about their low wages because there are too many farm teams. Same thing applies. Clients will pay for good work, they just won't pay for the same work they can get elsewhere for less.
39
SUBSIDIZING THINGS DOESN"T MAKE THEM CHEAPER!!!! What, do you think the government makes the money appear like magic? The government is horribly inefficient. Subsidizing things makes them MORE expensive overall. The government should be limited to essential tasks, not subsidizing law schools.
"Never mind the gazillion highly qualified new layoffs, there will never be enough legitimate demand for this many lawyers. especially from marginal schools. Make it stop! "
Lol Highlyl qualified?! Lol. Those laid off monkeys are only minimally competent as discrete tasks they practiced for 4-5 years in large law firms.
They are worth jack fucking all to the rest of the world, my friend. That is why they are so unemployed right now. They are only a little bit more useful than a 22 year old recent college grad.
I know the resume stuffers who populate elite law schools and large law firms as associates find this impossible to believe, but their skill set is pretty damn unimpressive to everyone except themselves.
I know, I was like that 13 years ago, and so what every one I knew from law school.
106 - The real irony is the fact that your English grammar and usage skill set is unimpressive to everyone but yourself.
um, considering just about anyone with a heartbeat can get into law school, why do we need more so that even more half-witted people can pursue a life of loan repayment and unemployment?
my tier 1 school already has enough people shouldn't be anywhere near a real client. i can only imagine how bad it is down in tier 4.
1. Open Law School
2. ????
3. Profit
University of 35500 sq ft Wives School of Law and Fast Food Preparation.
Texas is Better
106 -
Are you retarded or something? "I was like that 13 years ago..." Ok, so I'll assume you have been practicing law for 13 years. If your post is even somewhat reflective of the quality of your legal work, may god have mercy on your soul...
There are way too many lawyers and law schools as is. This is ridiculous. Stop fucking accrediting new schools.
98- Hilarious, ignorant and sad. If this was a jeopardy question, it would read:
"What does an idiot say before he throws away $150,000?"
Does each Texan count as 2 people on account of them all being so humongous?
The ABA is a damn disgrace. They should be closing useless law schools, not accrediting new ones.
Given that I have $250,000 in debt and no job, I imagine that there is room for attorneys in traffic court in Arrakis. "Your honor, it is not a crime to race Shai-Hulud to Sietch Tabr while drunk on water!"
10-
Fail. Law school may not be a waste of "time" per se if you don't want to practice, but it damn sure is a waste of money. And since time=money, you're fucked.
PS 33- Hook'em
This is in fact an abomination.
About 4 years ago, heck, maybe even 6. Texas A&M University wanted to buy South Texas College of Law.
For all you east coasters, Texas A&M is the other flagship university in Texas and one of the biggest schools in the country.
This would have been great....No new school created, a private school goes public, and with A&M's massive resources could probably pull the school at least out of the depths of the 4th tier, and over many years possibly become a 2nd tier school. Everybody wins.
Texas Tech, and University of Houston threw an absolute hissy fit and got the bill axed. They realized that in Texas, the name recognition of Texas A&M and the money they have would have a fairly quick impact on their classes.
Now, the legislature is approving a brand new law school?! This school will never climb out of the 4th tier. UH and Tech both know this. They didn't oppose it. Thus, PROFIT for UNT, PROFIT for Dallas (whom on the record has said...oh the law school will be a great addition to our downtown), and Poverty for the students who will be suckered into attending that school.
I could not be more angry at the irresponsibility of the Texas Legislature.
I'm sure this is more that ATL wanted to know, but there you have it.
Wow, I heard about this on the radio a couple years ago, but never really thought about it. God it's such a retarded idea though. Lawyers in Dallas are like fleas on a dog.
Well, I'll admit that the school might be an ok idea, but only if every prospective applicant promises to work as a Public Defender or for Legal Aid on the border for 10 years.
- "Texas A&M is the other flagship university"
Lol. Keep telling yourself that buddy.
As a legal recruiter in Dallas, I think this is a fantastic idea. In a few years, I'll be highly anticipating the arrival of numerous UNT resumes in my inbox... because for some reason, those Biglaw jobs they wanted got offered to the UT/SMU grads who graduated in the top 99% of their class.
I'm sick of the "many people go to law school who do not intend to practice" meme. Who has $150k to blow on law school with no intention of using the education? No one I went to school with had that luxury. I think it's propaganda hyped by the law school admin trolls. There is NO justification for opening more law schools with the industry in the state it's in. Especially not when they're turning a blind eye to the unrelenting FALSE statistics on salaries and placement disseminated by the schools and the NALP.
Hey, don't NOBODY be messin' with North Texas, or I'll be bringin' the Steel Curtain down on yo' ass.
Have a Coke and a smile, bitches.
123 --
That was perfect. Thanks.
118 = Andy? Is that you Andy?
103 - UNT is indeed a dirty, dirty school...
SMU alumn
118- As a self-centered East Coaster, I thank you for the valuable insight concerning the glamorous and high stakes world of Texas law schools. I used to only associate bonfires and football with Texas A&M, but I'll update my records and ensure Texas A&M is properly credited as "the other flagship university in Texas."
Well, I define Flagship university as the state defines it. (Access to the Permanent University Fund)
Thanks for changing your records 127. However, I should indicate that I never called east coasters self-centered. I have no idea whats going on up there either.
Thanks and Gig'Em.
Pink sock
The reason the Texas Legislature approved this absolute dog of an idea is that half of them went to one of the half dozen TTT law schools that already infest the state and they want someone to look down on.
The other half went to UT and they already have A&M.
LOL @ 130
Just what Texas needs, more jackasses with law degrees. As if the state wasn't filled with overbearing, self-important, egotistical morons already. Oh well, if you're so stupid you can only get into UNT Law (or Texas Southern, or St. Mary's), then you deserve the malpractice suits and disbarment that surely await you.
Several points:
- All current lawyers know there are too many effing lawyers as it is. That's why we have that fun little anti-competitive device called the bar exam-- to protect our preexisting turf from cheap, newbie competition. There's no other purpose to the exam, honestly. And thus, the ABA needs to stop. Especially in this economy, it's terrible form. Not every stupid metropolis needs its own public law school.
- Many, many people all over the country have heard of Colby, Bates and Bowdoin. Hope you had fun at your cowtown junior university, jackass.
- Dekalb is definitively not a part of "The Greater Chicagoland Area" and anyone who thinks oterhwise should try counting the interminable number of corn fields between the end of the Chicago 'burbs and Dekalb, BFE.
This is criminal fraud being committed by the ABA, and especially because he is a law school graduate himself, this needs to be brought directly to the attention of President Obama.
133 people have heard of Bodoin. In fact, I think it's also a J. Crew sweater color---it's that illustrious. But nobody, I mean, nobody has heard of the "CCB."
@122
"I'm sick of the 'many people go to law school who do not intend to practice" meme. Who has $150k to blow on law school with no intention of using the education?'
But dude, it's TRUE! Just a couple days ago, there was the article by Kash that pointed out tons of people want to go to law school and then become politicians. Add to that the people who want to be FBI agents (or other law enforcement) and just random bureaucrats, and you've got a sizable chunk of the law school population that aren't going to be practicing lawyers.
136--Do you honestly think a "SIZEABLE" portion of the people going to law school do not intend to ever practice law? Do "FBI agents" and "random bureaucrats" make enough money to service a $150k debt? Anyone going into politics has cash to spare, so they don't really count either (a crass generalization, but I think it's valid enough).
You have to remember, T14 means there is MUCH below you. Those people do not have the money to burn that the NALP and law school administration trolls would have you believe they do. The only thing they DO have is the ability to take out the student loans necessary to pay for their non-income-producing law degrees.
Here is a crazy idea, spend that money on some of the law schools in the state not called UT so that they can get a respectable ranking and actually produce lawyers as opposed to over educated McDonalds employees.
137-you assume everyone who goes to law school assumes debt. Some people are smart with their money (or come from a privileged background) and can pay outright.
No debt is the only way to go through law school
Yes there are many law schools already and where will all the graduates work???
Dear Senator:
On your website it states “Senator West's key initiatives over his legislative career have included creating college admission opportunities for all students”
I understand that you have been a champion for the first-ever publicly supported law school in Dallas. While I commend you on your efforts, I would like to bring to you attention another option
One of the arguments made by the supporters is access, both physical and financial.
I ask that before the state of Texas spends millions of dollars that we can not afford on creating new law schools, that the Texas Board of Law Examiners Rules be amended. Currently the Rules prohibit admission opportunities to the poor and remote, regardless of intellect.
I argue that students of all background currently have access to the study of law, both physically and financially through the many tried and true J.D. programs based on study by correspondence (wed based schools). Schools such as www.nwculaw.edu offer an affordable education that is accessible by everyone in Texas. There is no need to spend millions of dollars in a new law school that most potential student can not afford. Regardless of desire and intellect, the shear fear of the loan repayment discourage some of the best and brightest from the study of law, and some that have no ability to travel to and from the school location.
Currently the Rules Governing Admission to the Bar of Texas prohibit graduates of J.D. programs by correspondence even in the event if the individual has passes that state’s bar exam and hold a Licenses to practice Law.
Northwestern California University School of Law’s yearly tuition cost is $2,850.00, which is clearly solves the issue of access and affordability. Having completed many classes by correspondence, I understand that the responsibility on the student is greater but also is the access.
Please do research and consider proposing legislative amendments to the Texas Board of Law Examiners Rules to allow education by correspondence.
When i hear this kind of news it makes me want to drop on my Hardwood Flooring !!! Please America, no more crap in this law system !!
This makes me faint on my Hardwood Flooring !! Sometimes i feel like every industry is just plain corruption !!!