first

take down the damn dealbreaker ad

sweet deal. 5000K a month + health insurance to do nothing. i'll take it.

All these crazy whacky packages different firms offer. I wonder how people who are actually in the non-profit field are reacting.

Too bad none of them read ATL...ah well...

Elie,

When are you going to do a post about anemic hiring at the DOJ? My DC firm used to send multiple people to the DOJ each month and has not sent anyone in a long time. There are rumors that the DOJ units are overwhelmed with applications and that is slowing down hiring. Why can't we get more transparency on what is happening here?

6, What do you expect when Obama is trying to trim the fat on government spending and then decides to fly Air Force One around NYC for a Statue of Liberty Photo Op? It costs $50K/hour to fly that thing. By not hiring a DOJ attorney, the adminstration can take 2 hours' worth of pictures of a plane for a website. It's called priorities. Apparently there is more value in a picture of a plane than an attorney at the DOJ.

Eighth!

I wonder if these deferred start dates actually mean anything. When a firm is faced with a choice between hiring a 3L just out of law school and a law graduate who's been working for public interest or whatever for a year, why would the firm choose the person who's been out of school (and consequently out of contact with other law students) for a year?

i want a big firm job. i want $160k/year.

9, Sheeeiittt!

Provide some justification for your claims because that just doesn't make sense.

Now, I need some walk-around money.

MoFo is a pretty liberal firm. They get a lot of pro bono/public interest types who probably love this deal and may never return. I'm not sure that's the firm's primary intention, because they didn't incentivize working as much as they could have, but it might work out best for everyone.

It's a shame that grads who would otherwise have BIGLAW jobs are now being positioned to take public interest jobs away from those who (a) don't have the gold plated resumes to get BIGLAW jobs, and/or (b) have a genuine interest in pursuing public interest careers.

Does MoFo have the best logo? votes?

I truly hate you for putting the Dealbreaker ad back up. Just to make sure I wasn't unjustifiably flying off the handle I checked all of your sister sites. None of them have to put up with an obnoxious add like that.

Do you really think that annoying the hell out of me is a good way to get me to expand my use of your products?

Based on the news today, I'm voting for no more Mondays. It appears that several 2009 graduates will be working as essentially 2010 grads. I can only imagine what the stories from summering and fall recruiting will be this year.

Also, that grapes ad is terrible. I purposely resize and move my browser so it is off-screen. It turns me off to both this site and whatever site it is "promoting."

Are federal clerks included in all these deferrals?

Reed Smith postponed until January 2010, and is closing its Oakland office.

Shearman has just announced a 1- year sabbatical program. Don't get fooled though -- the announcement comes after a round of lay-offs last Friday.

I'm hearing rumors of massive layoffs at Cahill. Can you confirm?

BigLaw to $60k!

What's the story on how these firms will check on the deferred associate's public interest work? Yes, the company has to be a 501(c)(3) but....everyone's got a friend with one of those, no? Will the firm check how hard you're working at that company? Presumably, no.

This is rediculous. Paying people not to come to work. It's this type of dumbass business sense that got the firms in all this trouble in the first place. Dumbass=BigLaw.

22: would someone really lie about working at a public sector org for an extra $15K? it's not worth the risk.

17: federal clerk here. my firm (V50) has made no distinction b/w clerks and baby law grads in terms of start dates. sounds like things are the same at most other big firms. pretty lame if you ask me.

MoFo is taking 60% of its incoming first years on November 2. I'd say that's pretty damn good in this economy.

26 - how did they differentiate? Practice area?

how come they set specific dates? seems like deferring till nov 2010 would be easier than april 2011, but that doesnt seem like an option.

25: Thanks for the answer. I heard that most federal clerks are getting deferred with everyone else. No preferential treatment. Are you at least getting your clerkship bonus early (right after the clerkship ends), or do you have to wait until your (deferred) start?

28,

no one is talking about April 2011.

26 - No, that's not pretty damn good. That's not good at all. Good would be taking them on and not deferring them because you want them to be "fully engaged" in the practice.

I always got the best training during relatively quiet times at my firm. Nobody has time for proper training during the booms.

Morale continues to plummet at Skadden DC as partners debate turning the office into a Dechert satellite.

No matter how depressed you may feel, it can't be worse than me at this moment. I have a salary less than your stipend and cannot afford rent in the city I live. Laugh at me all you want. I'm going to throw myself off a bridge if things don't improve. I hate my life everyday I wake up.

Signed: Tier 1 JD and former Senior Editor of Law Review

18 - Reed Smith also has no summer associates in its Virginia offices & is closing Leesburg and Richmond - I don't know about Falls Church.

seems pretty good, but notice that you're starting Jan 4 2011. compare that with Latham and the others where you start in Oct 2010.
Sure you get 10k more, but you lose 2 months of real salary, which is a lot more than 10k.

sweet deal with the healthcare though, that's what all firms should be doing.

33 = the next Mark Levy.

I signed up for MoFo with the understanding that I was going to be doing corporate. Now they tell me I have two choices: litigation, or litigation.

Bastards.

35, no one has been deferred to January, 2011 - it's merely an option one can take if one prefers. And compared to Latham, the latest forced deferral date at MoFo is April, 2010.

37, please leave the firm so the rest of us who actually want to do litigation can do so. No one is forcing you to stay there.

How did MoFo determine who would be starting when? I heard that it was not based on practice groups. Was it entirely random?

38: none of the other firm's deferrals were mandatory either with the exception of morgan lewis i believe. they are all optional, with the stipend ranging from 60-85k. (60 being morgan lewis and 85 being mofo).

Also, Latham didn't stagger their dates, they all start mid-December 2010.

So is the class of 2010 officially the lost generation? Or is the recruting stigma attached to no-offering so great that 2011 has it worse?

41,

As a 2010'er, i sure hope your second thought was the right one!

I can only hope that my firm reduced the class enough for this Summer (by 60%) that we'll all get offers!

42: if you're going to Shearman this summer, don't worry. They reduced the class size by more than half!

My firm deferred the people we don't want to ever start, period. The people we like get to start.

41: 2010 seems fine. easier to cut back on future summer classes than pay for these deferred kids to live for a year and then cut them.

2009 (with all the laid of 1st years), 2011 and 12 are probalby in for much worse than 2010

This is a nice bit of additional stress for these people during finals. Nicely done, it should help the curve.

- 3L still gunning

So the deal is if you work at a non-profit, they promise you 15k extra? Is that like the promise they made to have you start in fall 2009? As long as they are promising people money they will never ever pay out, why not grab headlines by offering like 50 or 60k bonus when you START AT THE FIRM, wink wink?

Honest question here, and I'd really appreciate a real answer: how are people that are/were still waiting to hear from firms supposed to go out and look for a public interest job in earnest when they technically still have a job with their firms? How does that work?

Generous. Not sure. Very confused incoming associates. I am sure. Not an entirely accurate article as some associates have been given start dates without choice. Most of the laid off from MoFo, still laid off. No generosity there.

Generous. Not sure. Very confused incoming associates. I am sure. Not an entirely accurate article as some associates have been given start dates without choice. Most of the laid off from MoFo, still laid off. No generosity there.

I think I just figured out how to bring an action against firms that have delayed start dates or reduced salaries. I'm studying for my contracts final and I'm using an outline from a classmate. It has something about a theory called "promise or estoppel," from a book called "Statement of the Law." I can't find the book in the library, but the outline says it costs $90 (you can probably get it cheaper online, used).

I wonder if anyone has considered this theory. thanks.

51 - you must've failed contracts, which is why you're taking it in the spring. Or you go to a TTT that has a spring admission program. Which is it?

I agree with 48's question... how are people who haven't heard from their firms (like MoFo until today or others) supposed to actively look for nonprofit jobs when they aren't sure how long they are going to be deferred until?? Let's say i knew i was going to be deferred...well is it for a year or just for the fall?? By not letting them know until now, they really screwed over their incoming class.

52: don't feed the trolls.

How much longer are firms going to wait to let people know about delays? It is kinda lame some firms let people know right away and others are just getting around to informing people. Many 3Ls have already signed leases for bar studying and life at the firm. All the public interest jobs are going to be gone soon. I know every company is allowed to do what it wants about hires, but it is lame that some firms have no care for the problems they are putting on their incoming class by waiting this long.

49/50 - Your writing is incomprehensible, so I might misunderstand your point, but everyone certainly has been given the option of deferring to Jan 2011. If you're only stating that some were given April start dates instead of November, then you're right, but nobody said otherwise. Also, every incoming associate I've spoken with seems pretty clear on what's being offered, but maybe you're trolling?

I may take the deal, but have to run the same cost/benefit that a lot of 3L's are going through right now. But on the surface it sounds great -- 85K with health insurance to do 10 months of non-profit work? Yes, please.

A friend of a friend said Elie Mystel has a 2 inch cock when fully erect, can anyone confirm?

57 - No, he has a 10-inch monster :)
-57's Mom.

This is innovative, but why didn't they just pull a Sullivan & Cromwell instead (stealth layoffs, fucking over the associates with shit bonuses and laughable "special bonuses" of $500, and cutting perks while the partners make almost $3 million per year) ???

everyone was given a set start date, but each associate could push back to Jan 2011. If you were given Nov 2nd, you could push back to either April 2010 or Jan 2011.

56 - how come there's no fall 2010 option? seems like 1 year deferral is better than 18 months.

56: if you think a little harder you'll realize there is a significant possibility you will never be invited back for one reason or another

really sucks to be an incoming associate at one of those firms that paid dick for the deferral. I don't think I deserve anything because I am not producing anything, but like anything it sucks to see other people get all the goods. Damn OCI!!!! These packages will be forever shrined on the internet and I would have definitely made a different choice had I known how the firms would handle the deferral. #$*&#*()$&)(#&$)(#& I'm going to be a poor little bitch for months while other BigLaw 3L donkeys will live in luxury for sitting on thier ass... two americas, that's all I have to say.

62 - i think all 3L's thinking about taking a deferral are aware of that possibility. that's why i mentioned the cost benefit analysis.

Why are these firms paying more than the traditional $50,000 clerkship bonus?

Why are these firms paying more than the traditional $50,000 clerkship bonus?

Could be worse. Could've been stealthily laid off by S&C.

64: then you might want to temper your "yes please"

It's time for lawyers to unionize... partners have too much power and BigLaw sucks. Fight back... start the ULA. Same rules as construction unions.

1) Minimum of 10 lawyers on each project regardless of how small.
2) 10 minute breaks every hour (standing over the shoulder of another attorney as he types a memo does not count)
3) Maximum 8 hour shifts - quitting time is 4:30PM
4) Mandatory retirement with 80% pension after 20 years.
5) No doc review or due dilligence... paralegals can do that.

Who's in?

68 - I intended to with "on the surface" ;)

You're absolutely right though. It's a very difficult decision and requires a lot of faith in management. It might be an incredible opportunity or it might be career-breaking. Tough choice.

35, SHUT TO FUCK UP ABOUT LATHAM.

Latham is the biggest piece of shit firm in the world. How many people did MoFo lay off? MoFo is the gayest firm in the world and I would still rather take it in the ass at Mofo when at Latham. Latham, you created over 250 enemies, most of them are great attorneys. You will suffer the consequences.

Remaining douchebags of Latham: despite you sucking up, you will be laid off in a few weeks.

52 = Mark Levy of ATL commenters

51 for president!!

71: so you were too much of a pussy to stand outside the lipstick building with a giant rat, weren't you, asshole?

To those deferring for two years:

You know what a lawyer is? A smart person with absolutely no business sense.

Law firms clients are (finally) wise to the fact that recent graduates aren't producing work that's worth $250/hr. They're upset and they want (and are getting) concessions.

Do you really think that at the tail end of your nearly two year deferral doing "public interest" work, those same clients - who are currently driving salaries down for not only associates but partners too - are going to be elated to see you - fresh off of 2 years of public interest - waltz through the door and start handling their matters?

I don't want to make a blanket prediction (there will be some exceptions), but a number of you are clearly going to be silently un-vited from joining your firm. It would make absolutely no economic sense to hire you (and please don't flatter yourself with the "reputational" damage fallacy - there isn't a client, nor a law student, that is going to care about a "rescinded" 2-year stale offer to a 2nd year attorney that graduated at the peak of the recession. Nor do some of these firms have a reputation that's worth defending).

Now, please listen to your fellow students contradict me. They'll enlighten you as to how law firms really work (after all, they were actually at a real, live law firm for 8 weeks one summer).

Choose your public interest firm as if it were going to be your career for the foreseeable future. Because it probably will be.

51 to fill the vacancy on the Supreme Court.

i still can't believe 52 fell for 51's nonsense.

"the outline says it costs $90" = priceless

75 - your point is stupid. these deferred kids aren't getting any seniority

why have a 1st year fresh out of law school who doesn't know his ass from his bluebook when you can have a 1st year who has practiced for a year? and guess what, even though your head is all the way up your ass, one might argue that you learn more in a smaller PI office doing hands on work than you do doing doc review at a 700 person biglaw office

75 -- I was there for twelve weeks. TWELVE!!!

77: i missed that. very subtle, good stuff.

77 - i missed that the first time i read it. lol. this schtick just keeps getting better and better.

78,

Please return to studying for finals. "Seniority" wasn't an issue 75's in the fact pattern, spanky.

I heard that ATL commenters had some of their ribs removed so they can suck their own dicks. Can anyone confirm?

I have a final in evidence tomorrow, and I haven't started studying yet. Any suggestions?

84: do as well as you can so you don't have to settle for Latham.

83 - You tell us. On a related note, bait tastes bad.

82: read a little deeper and you'll see it buddy. the whole argument is premised on the fact that clients don't want to be paying for kids fresh off a year of public interest. this only makes sense if they're going to be second years. if they're going to be first years, why would them having 1 year of practical experience be a detriment? if anything, they'd strongly prefer these public interest kids over 1st years fresh out of law school.

think harder.

I don't understand why a firm would prefer to hire a 3L than a deferred graduate. Wouldn't the deferred grad be more valuable (since he'd have at least some practical experience and would presumably be admitted)?

Also, assuming the economy is still in the dumps this fall, what's the argument that the class of 2011 is better off than the class of 2010? I mean, both are screwed, but it seems that if firms were forced to choose, it would be cheaper to offer and defer SAs this year and just hire less 2011s. They'd save money on the 2011 summer program and they could avoid reporting a big no offer rate on NALP.

82, you got spanked.

I'm starting to wonder if the survivors of the apocalypse will one day soon begin to envy those who didn't.

Most law firms are run by unimaginative rent seekers who can't do anything other than exploit the monopoly granted by the laws of the states in which they operate. Right now they're scared senseless by what has happened. Their business models, designed for and built on the assumption of infinitely expanding credit, are in ruins. Never having been entrepreneurs they can't think of anything to do other than to follow the herd and hope that the guys at the top 10 firms are really really smart.

That's why you're seeing all these deferrals and stipends and delayed starting dates. It's not because it's a good idea. It's because everyone else is doing it - just like everyone in California once upon a time thought houses would appreciate 20% annually forever. Well, the value of houses can't increase asymptotically and law firms can't continue to pay people not to work.

June 15 is right around the corner and Uncle Sam is here again for his cut. It's dawning on firms that we're in a new world and a market like that of the roaring aughts won't be back for another 60 years or so, if the last go-round was any indication. That means a panic is about to set in.

When the panic breaks out there won't be 12 month trips to Tahiti while waiting for a slot to open at your firm. There won't be 4 months of pay on the way out. No, you'll be put out and given a form so you can get $485/week unemployment (and get to meet a lot of interesting people while waiting in line). And you'll wish you were one of the ones who didn't survive.

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

at least the 3Ls at MoFo are done waiting to hear the shitty news. i'm still waiting for the ax to drop. show some respect and just tell me already!

-- Soon to be Out of School & Out of Work 3L

69 - fuck off. Go hang with auto-workers b/c that's clearly your ilk.

90-
Yeah? Well, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

83, WHY WOULD THEY NEED TO WHEN WE'RE AVAILABLE?!

-83'S MOM & SIGNIFICANT OTHER

Lawyers can't unionize under the ethics rules. You can't just go on strike without violating your duties to your clients.

KILL THE DEALBREAKER AD NOM NOM NOM

95 partners at many firms do it everyday. It's called "work from home." Actually, I think it would be great if associates picked up and left. They could likely hedge the risk of ethics complaints by notifying the client (if it were such a concern). For example, provide the client with ample time to find alternative counsel, especially when the lone partner(s) would be unable to provide competent representation. "What's Westlaw? I get paid $700 an hour to review your work and make guesswork of the law and whether a judge will decide A or B. I have not picked up a book since the Jeffersons left syndication."

71, you are a fucking dirty douchebag. I stuck that huge rat up your ass and you did not even notice cause you have been fucked in the ass by fuckface partners for so long, you ass is as wide as the Lincoln tunnel. Go back to sucking day and making up hours. If you stay really late, everybody thinks you are working. Your day is coming in a few weeks.

90, you don't know what you're talking about. Delayed starting dates are a good idea. At least for people already at firms, depsite the prestige hit.

I'm at a V10 firm, and we're fortunate that we have a decent amount of work. Obviously corporate is slow. But general lit's decent. IP is busy. And bankruptcy is booming.

Still I can't imagine bringing in 50 new people. Except in bankruptcy, they'd be largely sitting around. I can't imagine what it'd be like at firms without such busy bankruptcy and IP departments and where general lit is suffering more.

75 - i would like to "un-vite" you from posting here.

99, I'm not even sure if there will be a real prestige hit anymore. Weil did it. Kirkland will probably do it. The only reason Skadden didn't do it is because it forced (I mean strongly urged) its associates to disappear/Sidebar for awhile.

The true top three or four firms probably won't. And everyone knows who they are. But the rest of the V10 is likely to, and I don't think it will hurt that much. On the other hand, I expect and hope salary cuts and mass layoffs will stay out of the top 10. Latham will hopefully be the lone wolf and was never a true top firm anyway.

To the children,

In re: the "seniority" issue - you have none. What you will have in two years' time is: (1) still no seniority, (2) no experience that is germane to anything at your firm, and (3) a stale body of knowledge concerning the law.

Ohhhhhhh....what firm could possibly turn THAT down?

If public interest work was such valuable experience - as you all seem to have convinced yourselves that it is - then why would firms ever bother with hiring directly from law schools? Why wouldn't they just scoop up these "experienced" associates from these public interest jobs?

The answer is that - unless you're going into litigation - you gain absolutely no relevant experience in public interest work. And let's face it, litigation practice groups are the one's deferring incoming grads.

So, news flash - no corporate practice of a major law firm is dying to get your family law/immigration/landlord-tenant public interest experience. More importantly, no major firm's clients will want to pay for it.

Again, please listen to your classmates tell you otherwise. They know.

-From the adult

(Now please post something predictably snarky or vile in response)

Where's Kirk Lazarus when you need him? This MoFo is dead! Ain't no Chris Angel Mindfreak, David Blaine trapdoor horseshit jumping off here!

102 is a douche and not a smart one. Just to let you know, firms don't hire floods of public interest associates because there have been none that wanted to move to big firms. To the extent there's been cross-over at all it's in the other direction. People interested in public interest may work in Biglaw for a few years to pay off loans and then go do what they really wanted to do.

And firms aren't sending associates to public interest firms because the experience is so great. They're sending them there to gain SOME minimal experience but mostly so that they can pay less than half their salary and drastically cut overhead. And of course because there is simply not much work for them currently. They're hoping things will be better in a year. Maybe they won't be. But hopefully.

Finally, litigation departments are the ones deferring? What? No, there is more room and more work for litigation associates than any department except Bankruptcy. And IP lit in firms with a soliddepartment.

Adult? More like 2L or otherwise simply a loon with no clue.

95 - not true. ALAA is the union for Legal Aid attorneys - an affiliate of UAW. Some city agency attorneys are members of a Teamster affiliate.

102, you undermined whatever credibility you might have had with the "litigation practice groups are the ones deferring people" line. Um, no, that would be transactional.

Did Elie just use the term "interesting package"? How has no one discussed this?

Yet more proof that the Class of '09 is the Lost Generation.

None of you will ever start at the firms that deferred you. You have spent big money buying a law school education only to get a low paying career in public interest law. Congrats to the Class of '09.

And don't get snarky, Class of '10 and (probably) Class of '11 grads, you are on the chopping block too. Many of the Class of '10 summers will not get offers, and the Class of '11 will be competing against hordes of unemployed Class of '09 and Class of '10 grads with equally little experience.

You are all toast.

Yet more proof that the Class of '09 is the Lost Generation.

None of you will ever start at the firms that deferred you. You have spent big money buying a law school education only to get a low paying career in public interest law. Congrats to the Class of '09.

And don't get snarky, Class of '10 and (probably) Class of '11 grads, you are on the chopping block too. Many of the Class of '10 summers will not get offers, and the Class of '11 will be competing against hordes of unemployed Class of '09 and Class of '10 grads with equally little experience.

You are all toast.

Yet more proof that the Class of '09 is the Lost Generation.

None of you will ever start at the firms that deferred you. You have spent big money buying a law school education only to get a low paying career in public interest law. Congrats to the Class of '09.

And don't get snarky, Class of '10 and (probably) Class of '11 grads, you are on the chopping block too. Many of the Class of '10 summers will not get offers, and the Class of '11 will be competing against hordes of unemployed Class of '09 and Class of '10 grads with equally little experience.

You are all toast.

@110 -- shut up!

102=Someone who has never even breathed the air at a public interest law firm because he was too busy drinking the large law firm Kool-Aid about how "special" the work at top firms is and how special he or she is as a result.

Go spend some actual time working in the public interest. Then pontificate. You don't know what you're talking about. 1 year at a public interest firm and an attorney comes out with skills that he or she would be lucky to see as a 5th or 6th year at a large firm. They don't have time to coddle at non-profits because they are actually busy. You won't see associates 3-4 years out who cannot be trusted to make a court appearance or sign a pleading, which is common at all large commercial law firms. You won't see a lawyer 10 years out who has never even tried a case. And for those who want to argue that this is all "litigation skills", well, you also need to spend some actual time in the non-profit world. It's not rocket science to negotiate and craft a deal when your "opponent" is just as greedy as your client and both are tryng to achieve the same objective - getting paid. Try crafting one when folks are actually coming to the table with different objectives than yours. Of course, since no corporate associate at a large firm ever sees more than a fragment of a deal anyway - once they get out of camping at the printers in year 3 - the experiences are not even comparable.

Every time I check in here and read the stupidity of folks arguing that somehow, their V10 firm or T14 or whatever top tier degree is so valuable that it cannot be "wasted" doing something like working in the (assumed lesser, given the tone of some folks) public interest I just laugh my ass off. Lawyers may be smart people but it seems the higher they go in the false US News heirarchy the stupider they get when it comes to how the world actually works outside the ivory tower. Here's a news flash. For at least 30 years, lawyers and clients alike have been sold a bill of goods: they have been conned into believing that someone is necessarily a more "skilled" or "talented" lawyer merely because of where they went to law school and conned into believing that this alone is the determinant of how "valuable" they are to their clients and the world at large. When in fact most successful lawyers outside of the elite law firm world have no such credentials, and lose to elite lawyers only because elite lawyers are encouraged to take 100 hours to scorch earth legal tasks that efficiently should take only 10, ideally while producing as much paper as possible so as to win by simply overwhelming those with less resources. This myth of innate superiority is what has driven large law firm rates through the roof (and the salaries for associates and partners alike) and what keeps the top end of the profession going. Of course, now that the economy has gone south, lo and behold large law firms are finding they CAN"T compete: they don't know how because they can't get off the idea that there is some legitimate reason they charge 3x as much to do the same legal work as someone less "elite". They are now getting rolled in the marketplace by clients who are business people and therefore know value when they see it.

In the marketplace, a lawyer with real experience is far more valuable than one with a pedigree who can't do anything. Any deferred associate who looks down his or her nose at the opportunity to get that experience in the public interest sector (when there is clearly no opportunity for them in the elite sector, right now) is a fool and anyone that argues that somehow there is no relationship between "valuable legal skills for my future career" and "public interest" is beyond a fool. They are just outright ignorant.

102=Someone who has never even breathed the air at a public interest law firm because he was too busy drinking the large law firm Kool-Aid about how "special" the work at top firms is and how special he or she is as a result.

Go spend some actual time working in the public interest. Then pontificate. You don't know what you're talking about. 1 year at a public interest firm and an attorney comes out with skills that he or she would be lucky to see as a 5th or 6th year at a large firm. They don't have time to coddle at non-profits because they are actually busy. You won't see associates 3-4 years out who cannot be trusted to make a court appearance or sign a pleading, which is common at all large commercial law firms. You won't see a lawyer 10 years out who has never even tried a case. And for those who want to argue that this is all "litigation skills", well, you also need to spend some actual time in the non-profit world. It's not rocket science to negotiate and craft a deal when your "opponent" is just as greedy as your client and both are tryng to achieve the same objective - getting paid. Try crafting one when folks are actually coming to the table with different objectives than yours. Of course, since no corporate associate at a large firm ever sees more than a fragment of a deal anyway - once they get out of camping at the printers in year 3 - the experiences are not even comparable.

Every time I check in here and read the stupidity of folks arguing that somehow, their V10 firm or T14 or whatever top tier degree is so valuable that it cannot be "wasted" doing something like working in the (assumed lesser, given the tone of some folks) public interest I just laugh my ass off. Lawyers may be smart people but it seems the higher they go in the false US News heirarchy the stupider they get when it comes to how the world actually works outside the ivory tower. Here's a news flash. For at least 30 years, lawyers and clients alike have been sold a bill of goods: they have been conned into believing that someone is necessarily a more "skilled" or "talented" lawyer merely because of where they went to law school and conned into believing that this alone is the determinant of how "valuable" they are to their clients and the world at large. When in fact most successful lawyers outside of the elite law firm world have no such credentials, and lose to elite lawyers only because elite lawyers are encouraged to take 100 hours to scorch earth legal tasks that efficiently should take only 10, ideally while producing as much paper as possible so as to win by simply overwhelming those with less resources. This myth of innate superiority is what has driven large law firm rates through the roof (and the salaries for associates and partners alike) and what keeps the top end of the profession going. Of course, now that the economy has gone south, lo and behold large law firms are finding they CAN"T compete: they don't know how because they can't get off the idea that there is some legitimate reason they charge 3x as much to do the same legal work as someone less "elite". They are now getting rolled in the marketplace by clients who are business people and therefore know value when they see it.

In the marketplace, a lawyer with real experience is far more valuable than one with a pedigree who can't do anything. Any deferred associate who looks down his or her nose at the opportunity to get that experience in the public interest sector (when there is clearly no opportunity for them in the elite sector, right now) is a fool and anyone that argues that somehow there is no relationship between "valuable legal skills for my future career" and "public interest" is beyond a fool. They are just outright ignorant.

102: you're clearly the same dumbass before who got his argument destroyed. we can tell from the terrible writing and reasoning.

i don't think anybody here is saying that this is a safe thing or that 2010ers are going to all have jobs, we're only saying that your reasoning that these PI associates are going to be worth less to a firm than a graduating 3L is nonsensical. do you know what 1st years do at big firms? they do doc review on heavily staffed projects, which isn't exactly cutting edge experience.

regarding the seniority thing, i don't think you even understand why your first argument was predicated on seniority. with these kinds of logic skills i don't think you could have ever landed a job in the first place, even during the boom times.

and finally, as further evidence you have never stepped foot in a firm and are probably just a hater, litigation is clearly not the group deferring students right now.

The public interest lawyers are now on this site trying to feel good (for once) about their lot by claiming that junior associates at Biglaw do nothing but document review. As someone who once was a junior associate at Biglaw, that's just BS. Is there document review to do? Yes, of course. But juniors are also learning skills that valuable to thier firms -- corporate and business practices of thier clients, for the transactional associates, and the proper handling of large commercial cases, for the litigators. Both will come in handy when those junior associates begin handling deals and cases in a few short years.

And, before the Public interest lawyers get too high and mighty, remember, helping one of your poor clients to complete an application for food stamps, or representing some worthless out-of-work sap at a social security disability hearing does not provide any real skill set that a large firm needs.

If public interest law really provided any skills sets that the large firms needed, large firms would hire public interest lawyers. By and large, they don't do that. Draw you own conclusion.

The public interest lawyers are now on this site trying to feel good (for once) about their lot by claiming that junior associates at Biglaw do nothing but document review. As someone who once was a junior associate at Biglaw, that's just BS. Is there document review to do? Yes, of course. But juniors are also learning skills that valuable to thier firms -- corporate and business practices of thier clients, for the transactional associates, and the proper handling of large commercial cases, for the litigators. Both will come in handy when those junior associates begin handling deals and cases in a few short years.

And, before the Public interest lawyers get too high and mighty, remember, helping one of your poor clients to complete an application for food stamps, or representing some worthless out-of-work sap at a social security disability hearing does not provide any real skill set that a large firm needs.

If public interest law really provided any skills sets that the large firms needed, large firms would hire public interest lawyers. By and large, they don't do that. Draw you own conclusion.

Graduates from elite institutions are innately better than those who graduate from TTTs. No one, and I mean no one, reviews documents better than an HLS grad!

116: you're working on an assumption that good public interest lawyers would want to lateral to big firms when in fact they are the least likely to want to move into corporate work later in their careers. they could have started at a big firm straight out of law school but didn't for a reason.

and you group all public interest work into the same category when the field is incredibly diverse. i'm guessing, but i'm fairly sure an ACLU or NRDC attorney could 1. be find a job at a biglaw firm and 2. come into a biglaw job with valuable experience

Before I whipped this out, all the reporters just thought I had an interesting package.

To all MoFo people:

Before you decide whether to start in April 2010 (and be class of 2009 for compensation purposes), or start in January 2011 (and be class of 2010 for compensation purposes), keep in mind that, yes you would be paid for 10 months of pro bono work (which is a good thing), but that you will lose a year of seniority DESPITE your having done 10 months of pro bono work.

If I were a MoFo person with serious intentions of staying in blglaw, I'd take the April 2010 (and keep my 2009 status). You get the same 5k stipend and $500 for health insurance per month as the people who delay longer, but you retain your year of seniority for compensation and bonus purposes.

That is, if you spend the 7 months between April 2010 and January 2011 working at the firm, you get a full year's of seniority credit, while if you spend 10 months between November 2009 and January 2011 working at pro bono, you don't get any seniority credit at all.

So I'd consider your eventual plans pretty heavily before you make your choice.

Just my $0.02.

121st!!

37 - It is a litigation firm - what do you expect. "M&A" refers to muff and ass at MoFo. Anyway, you got a lucky break, the corporate "team" are ^#@&s, no business, no work, no respect. Plodding along working on JV's and "strategic alliances" for start-ups and no-names is no way to live your life. Take the litigation job and jump ship when the market turns.

2010 !! 2011!! Desperate move from a desperate management team.

Will MoFo be around in 2010? Things look pretty rotten. Management needs some new blood and new ideas if the firm is going to survive.