First to predict Sidley to 190!

Also, K&E landed Mark Filip!

Please tell me I'm not the first.

"what happens if you DONT choose the option, etc. etc. "

1) Clearly, this tipster could write for ATL
2) Just as clearly, this tipster isn't familiar with promissory estoppel. Having now induced you to rely on a job offer by making it clear the pro bono program is optional, their only choices are to hire you or pay you damages. Section 90 of the Restatement is very clear on this.

3 -- Whew. I was worried about him finding a job.

Where's the obligatory list of V100 firms that still haven't announced??

Further proof that the class of 2009 is fucked beyond belief.

A&P still hasn't announced?

The fact that Sidley is limiting the number of associates who can participate in this program is encouraging (relative to the situation at Skadden). Seems to indicate they need at least some incoming bodies

Look into Arnold & Porter...I heard they pushed back to 2010 and are not guaranteeing jobs for incoming associates! This info came out about a week ago. GET ON IT!!!

Which K&E offices got which start date?

Here are two Chicago firms that are considerably better than McDermott Will & Emery.

Fish still hasn't announced...

I heard A&P gave identical start dates/stipends as Wilmer Hale (January 10K and March 15K).

For the love of god, please remove the grape eating mutant and her beatnik boyfriend add.

Steptoe & Johnson ???

does anyone else think laterallink sucks?

Fenwick did a selective Stroock. Look into it!!!

Kashmir, you missed the fact that K&E is still providing the normal $10,000 bar stipend on top of paying for bar expenses.

Shtick Guy is lame.

TTThompson Hine.

8, at least they aren't in the class of 2010!

(2011 might be ok since the economy seems to no longer be in a nose dive...)

This is embarassing. Over 2000 points packed onto the Dow in under 2 months and these geniuses are pushing back start dates. C'mon people, the Dow is up, the new boom is here.

19-Can you elaborate on what happened at Fenwick?

no typos, decent analysis ... somethings wrong here.

no typos, decent analysis ... somethings wrong here.

no typos, decent analysis ... somethings wrong here.

Obligatory list of V100 firms that still haven't announced here...

14 Williams & Connolly LLP
20 Arnold & Porter LLP
32 Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP
46 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
56 Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP
58 Fish & Richardson P.C.
61 Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP
68 Steptoe & Johnson LLP
74 Reed Smith LLP
75 Patton Boggs LLP
79 Howrey LLP
81 Crowell & Moring LLP
88 Dickstein Shapiro LLP
91 Lovells
93 Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP
100 Fenwick & West LLP

Thompson Knight is January 2010, but not on your list. Suck it.

Am I too big to fail?

--Chubby in Charlotte

Time to move up start dates! Get the "Move-up Round-up going!!!

Any news about Gibson start dates?

"very unclear to what extent each office is effected, what happens if you DONT choose the option, etc. etc."

I don't usually march with the grammar nazis, but come on. We're attorneys; language is the primary medium in which we operate. If you don't respect yourself enough to use basic spelling, punctuation, and capitalization, at least have some respect for the profession. Sidley should figure out who this first year is and push their start date back to the third week of never.

http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2009/05/05/more-evidence-that-the-us-economy-is-recovering/

Seriously, 3L's are graduating...how are there still V100 firms that haven't announced??? This is ridiculous!!

If this Pro Bono program only affects Sidley NY associates, it only goes to show that the NY office is complete sh*t. Sidley is very elitist even though they have no reason to be (at least in NY) and the prestige varies drastically from one office to the other (compare it to DC, for instance).

This is where I'd normally make a vague allusion to promissory estoppel. In this case, it's just too obvious, and there can be little doubt that these Associates would prevail against the law firms that are deferring their start dates.

25, 26, 27 -

"Somethings" wrong with your grammar.

...I guess I should go to work for McCool Smith...I hear they're hiring...hopefully I can work in the Marshall office!

#36

Sidley is offering deferment in Chicago as well. Not sure about other offices, such as LA and DC (which seems to be more prestigious than at least NY)

this is kind of rough --- the Sidley folks get only 2 weeks to decide if they want to take it.

Relied on my gown,
Too drunk to dance at prom. A
Sorry ass, topple.

Even if it is a crunch on time to make a decision, don't the people who should probably take these deferral programs offered by firms know who they are? I doubt the superstars are terribly worried that they won't be welcomed with open arms by these firms and are struggling with a decision. If you have doubts about the attitude the firm has towards you or got cold-offered, isn't this a pretty easy call? (actually getting a pro bono position aside)

half Sidley's new class
perhaps they should go elsewhere
biglaw life sucks shit

---a better haiku

Sidley Chicago is definitely participating in the "program" which has got to be one of the ceepiest name they could have come up with....

DC is probably the most prestigious Sidley office and also the busiest- their regulatory and lit groups are busy. Chicago is prestigious in Chicago, yes, but I am heading there and they are quite slow, esp in corporate.

the question is: the 17 mentioned in that memo (and i gather it will vary by office)- is that a CAP on who they would allow to do it, or a MINIMUM of who they will allow to come into the firm in November?

and why no re-confirmation of the non-Programmed start date, ie Nov 2/16 2009???

sigh.

36 -- Incoming Chicago associates got the same e-mail. They estimate 15-20 pro bono positions in the Chicago office.

43, no one is a superstar in a bunch of first years. Only a law student would think like this, and I'm sure that you all think that you are the superstars.

What exactly is a cold offer? Do you get a letter, but everyone else gets a a personal phone call? or a partner tells you t" we think you suck and do not want you to come back, but to make sure we maintain our 99% offer rate we have to extend you an offer and f you accept it we will make you miserable? or is it more subtle than that?

Ha, well 15-20 in the Chi office is roughly 1/5 of their incoming class.

17-20 in the NY office is roughly 1/2 of the incoming class. not surprising considering Sidley NY makes its money from hedge funds, capital markets and securitization- dead, dead, dead.

Obama is proposing that laid off people who go back to school can collect unemployment comp. Sounds like a good alternative for you BigLaw assholes out there, and that should cover even the ones with the biggest holes.

47- I'm not a law student. And there are certainly some incoming first-year associates that firms are really excited about, and others they wish had seen a cold offer for what it was. Sure, the rest just blend together, but there are always a few that certain groups make an effort to target because they show greater potential than most. I am sure those people know who they are and aren't worried about whether to take a deferral (perhaps they want to though for their own reasons though)

Should be noted that SIdley included an attachment with a list of 15-20 pro bono orgs in NY who they work with, and think have potential openings waiting for us.

i dont know if the other firms did this, but hey, that was kinda nice.

45 -- My bet is that Sidley wants exactly X new associates in each office, where X = [INCOMING CLASS SIZE] - [# OF PRO BONO SLOTS]. I further bet that the firm expects/hopes that they will have at least enough volunteers to fill all of the pro bono slots. But if it doesn't work out that way, yours is the credited question. Mandatory deferrals, anyone??

Whoo Hoooo! Everyone knows being a first year associate sucks. And here you can defer your arrival until you are a second year - thereby never having to deal with the truly shitty assignments.

53 is probably right.

As soon as I saw that email, I thought "OK so they're goal is 20-23 incoming associates."

But i can not imagine they will get 17 of us to sign up for this in the next two weeks.

so then what?

don't defer, hold out for a better package

Well done 54. Go chase that white rabbit....

24--Fenwick told certain individuals they can start in Jan...the rest of the class was told they can take 75k and there would be no obligation by the firm for further employment (basically saying take this, we won't have a job for you in Jan)

edit on 58--the individuals starting in January received no further stipend.

51 - You're 100% wrong. At this stage, the only thing that differentiates incoming first years is whether they left a nerdy, lonely and awkward impression or an outgoing, fun-to-work-with and engaging one. The firm does not have any clue as to whom will become a superstar or who has shown greater promise during the summer. They couldn't care less who elects to take the deferral. You're delusional if you think otherwise. And btw, the future superstars end up to be from both packs. You'd be amazed by the number of partners who are still nerdy, lonely and awkward.

51 - really people got cold offers and didn't know it and you are letting them start anyways? You sound like a total flame as a cold offer is just a favor and in no way would a firm not want someone, especially in this economic climate, but then since the individual was too stupid to understand it, they decided "oh what the heck, I'll take em."

No one knows who the superstars are. No cold offered people are going to work this year. YOU ARE A FLAME!!!!

There can definitely be differentiation between summer associates. But, no, you can't tell who will be a 'superstar.' You can tell who turns out good work product and who is lousy.

Even a junior associate who seems like they will be really good and a 'superstar' may well turn out not to be.

Accepting a cold offer in this climate is no fault of the student's. There are no other options, and if the firm doesn't have the balls/want to risk the reputational damage of no-offering, then they deserve to have cold offered 2L's starting.

Cold offers only work if both sides are getting something out of the deal.

So let me get this straight -

In using Sidley, a portion of our bill is going to fund the furlough of a group of 24 year-olds that have never worked as attorneys in their lives?

And to think I used to be outraged when I saw too much that was billed to second years! At least they ACTUALLY WORKED on our files. Now this?

Do you know what the difference is between this and UAW? The UAW members actually worked a day in their lives before getting paid not to. This is disgusting.

If you think we pitched a bitch about hourly rates before, just wait until our next talk.

So let me get this straight -

In using Sidley, a portion of our bill is going to fund the furlough of a group of 24 year-olds that have never worked as attorneys in their lives?

And to think I used to be outraged when I saw too much that was billed to second years! At least they ACTUALLY WORKED on our files. Now this?

Do you know what the difference is between this and UAW? The UAW members actually worked a day in their lives before getting paid not to. This is disgusting.

If you think we pitched a bitch about hourly rates before, just wait until our next talk.

I thought a cold offer was an agreement for both parties to represent to everyone else that the firm made an offer, but the student did not accept it? How do you accept a cold offer? That makes no sense...

66 exactly. The rest are just flames.

Wiley Rein = FAIL.

51 here, agree with 63. And I'm just reporting it how I see it. Don't know why anyone bothers posting their knowledge here as the regular commenters just want to do their thing uninterrupted. And 60, they absolutely DO care who takes the deferral. Maybe they are happy to have ANYONE take it to meet their numbers, but they certainly prefer that some people do over the others. Maybe "superstar" was the wrong word, but I have no doubt that at the very least, those with the very uncertain futures/cold offers know who they are.

66 is right, and 63 is wrong. A cold offer is a NON-offer. The firm is just being nice and allowing the person to tell other potential employers they got an offer. It's really not to protect the firm's offer percentage ever and certainly not in these times.

If someone gets a cold offer, they're not wanted. And if they try to come, they'll quickly get no-offered.

69 -- 60 here. This gets better, but by any means the select few that the firm would prefer not to defer are by no means selected on the basis of great work-product throughout the summer. Again, it's all about the personality and the various needs of the departments. If a few summers listed BK or Tax as their preferred practice area, you bet they'll be much more welcome than those dreaming of M&A or structured finance. And this has nothing to do with what they did throughout the summer.

64 -- the full amount of your bill is going to compensate Sidley for its services. What Sidley decides to do with a portion of that amount is not really your concern.

65 - so let me get this straight... in buying your company's shitty ass products, our bill is going to fund golden parachute clauses, dumb decisions by just about every employee, and all the useless fat that large corporations never seem to be able to get rid of because of internal politics?

You in-house counsel whiny bitches have problems when the work product sucks and problems when the price is too high. Unfortunately you get the former without the latter. These deferral packages are necessary to maintain high quality talent so they can continue to provide high quality work product in the future. If you want lower fees, higher a crappy firm.

Incoming associates at Sidley dont know their practice group assignments yet, which probably makes this alot harder on them.

the few who get BK, Tax or IP Lit in NY should be welcome here with open arms. Those who are gunning for RE, CM and general M&A should take a year for the market to fully work itself out.

73, do you really want your clients to go to another firm to avoid your "higher" fees?
Remember, IT used to be a major American industry that charged high premiums, until companies realized that smaller and foreign IT shops provided an acceptable level of service at vastly lower costs. You should read some IT message boards to see what kind of burgers the "high quality" IT talent is now flipping.
P.S. big law work product is crap. But that is to be expected from overworked lawyers with no training or guidance who are only in the profession for the money (hmm, sounds just like IT pre-2001).

-- not 65

Kash and lawfirmchaos commenter-

Patton Boggs' start date is October 19, 2009.

Sidley is definitely a second tier firm in Chicago. There's one firm at the top in Chicago and it's K&E.

It would be interesting to see the firm start dates plotted out on a graph of some sort (e.g. start dates as x axis, vault ranking as y) to get an idea of who's up and who's down these days.

58-59, thanks for the info. Also, do you know which groups are actually absorbing 3Ls? (I assume corporate is not, but what about lit, IP, tax?)

Also, 58-59, do you know what percent of the 3Ls were asked to never show up for work?

75 - hahaha... could you imagine calling your lawyer in india.... helo dis is habeet, how may I hewp yoo....

Until someone dismantles the bar association, by the time someone from India, China, or wherever actually gets qualified to produce the so called big law crap work product and do it legally, they would be in crazy debt and expect a fat salary like the rest of the big law associates. Also, you might want to check up on the IT stats because it is not as cheap as it used to be hire foreign IT professionals. The next generation has the same sense of entitlement and you can only exploit people for so long.

- 73

I wish I was going to Kirkland...for a couple reasons. But here's one more. At least I'm not headed to Latham and am slated to start in January with a $15K stipend. If the firm honors it...

How can firms afford to start associates in September 2009?

Pillsbury factory - deserves a wall of shame. I regret picking them over firms that announced a long time ago. I hope we get an offer not to come.

I hate to say it, because I've met some of their Chicago people and there are some douches, but I think Kirkland's on the rise. It's been profitable with great IP, bankruptcy, and general lit. And it's starting its associates on time. The New York people also seem pretty happy and not that douchey.

78 - check out ... http://lawfirmchaos.blogspot.com/2009/03/start-date-scattergram.html

80-81. i don't know the specifics. it was done by phone

43/51: Newsflash -- even COA clerks are having their biglaw offers rescinded. Sorry pal, but there are no superstars in this economy. Not even the awesome 3L that you think you are.

Out of the V10 firms, only Wachtell, S&C, K&E, and Davis Polk don't have 'optional' deferrals or late starts that are cause for concern...not pretty.

Cake or death!?!?!?!

How times have changed...when I started practicing Kirkland was an upstart Chicago firm with a small satellite New York office and little other national or international presence. Somewhere in the V20. Maybe 15 or 16.

81, I think you're overestimating the sophistication of most legal work done by biglaw associates, especially at the junior level. It doesn't take three years of law school to learn how to read documents and click simple buttons on a computer.

I am at a firm that postponed start dates in DC. We are starting to see work really pick back up and there is talk about bringing in at least part of the first year class sooner than we expected. I don't know if this will happen. It will depend on a few things coming in. I actually think if we did not have a summer class, there would have been no deferral.

I love how Kirkland pushing its start dates back to Nov 30 is considered "on time"

please. everyones hurting. some firms are willing to absorb more than others.

The transactional work will NEVER pick up, at least not to 2006 levels. Biglaw still has a long way to go in terms of cutting the fat.

I really don't know what these firms expect to do come January. Nothing will have changed by then, and the firms will not be able to absorb all of the incoming associates. I guess they will just keep on deferring with the hope that work will pick up again, but something has to give eventually.

94, hey, it's not Wachtell or Covington. But in this economy, November is pretty much on time. And much more reassuring to us 3Ls than firms with long deferrments + stipend or staggered start dates where the earlier ones are probably more illusory than real. My firm is one of the firms staggering...

I'm starting at a top patent boutique. Start dates September 2009.

I fucked a ton of Sidley and Kirkland bitches (like 77 above) up the ass- they usually have really small cocks and moan like bitches in heat once they feel my big cock rammed up their asses...usually doggie style

94, I thinks it's more a matter that some firms are ABLE to absorb more than others. I don't think Kirkland would be any more willing to risk its bottom line than any other firm. It's that firms with diversified practices (strong bankruptcy and IP) that aren't big M&A shops are in a much better place than other firms right now.

94, I thinks it's more a matter that some firms are ABLE to absorb more than others. I don't think Kirkland would be any more willing to risk its bottom line than any other firm. It's that firms with diversified practices (strong bankruptcy and IP) that aren't big M&A shops are in a much better place than other firms right now.

91, what are you smoking? Kirkland has been THE Chicago firm for decades. The Chicago office has always been its flagship. It opened its D.C. office long before the New York office. I believe it also had a Denver office for a while and opened up Los Angeles before New York too. Then came the others: London, San Francisco, Munich, Frankfort, Palo Alto and Hong Kong.

If you remember K&E being an "upstart," you must be 100 years old.

98, you are going to hell

I also fucked a bunch of Kirkland dudes up the ass doggie style

Does anyone know anything about the energy/environmental practice at Locke Lord?

Come on, 101. Maybe 'upstart' is the wrong word. But I started practicing in 1998. Yes, Kirkland was and had long been the premier Chicago firm. But it's New York office was small. Its California offices were a fraction of what they are today. I think some probably didn't exist. Hong Kong was years in the feature. The Munich and London offices were also fairly small.

Sure, it was a solid firm. But I didn't think of it as an international powerhouse. And I think it's fair to give it that title today.

-91

98, you need some help with anger management. you sound like a rapist in the making.

Actually, 105, the Munich office is even a more recent addition of ours. The last few years. The rest sounds about right.

When does the new Vault come out? I'm anxious to see how the conduct of these firms during the recession, and more importantly how each has weathered it, affects their standings.

@11. The A&P memo gives two options to start, both in 2010. The only thing that they didn't guarantee was that you won't get the day that you want to start (of the two days listed).

My guess is that you're a stressed out, soon-to-be summer at A&P

Goddamn you, Latham...

Right on, 99. At Kirkland, we had been working to both chase the big Banks and beef up our M & A practice. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise that these didn't form a greater component of our overall practice when this recession hit.

The market is DEAD. I don't know how any of these firms will be able to take on new associates. They are just scrambling at this point to try and minimize the damage, but it is inevitable that most 2009 grads will never start at their firms.

Just apply to government and ditch the firm before they fuck you.

The market is DEAD. I don't know how any of these firms will be able to take on new associates. They are just scrambling at this point to try and minimize the damage, but it is inevitable that most 2009 grads will never start at their firms.

Just apply to government and ditch the firm before they fuck you.

52: Any chance any of those organizations will have a single opening at this time? I mean, since Sidley associates will be competing with 10000 others for the jobs.

5 - Are you a fucking moron or are you joking?

First, the second restatement is not authoritative law.

Second, what are their damages? NY has at will employment, which means firms do not have to hire you if they do not want to. The only possible chance in hell you would have to collect damages is if a firm induced you to leave a job that you were ACTUALLY working at. In that case you would still have a duty to cover and get another job. Your damages would be the difference between what the old job and new job were paying. The fact that you past up on other offers, even if it was to your detriment is irrelevant.

For the love of God I hope you do not go to a T14 school, because if you do it makes me realize that your school is a fucking waste of money.

115. a joke. on you evidently.

K&E IN THA HOUSE! CAN'T STOP, WON'T STOP.

Bryan cave dc office to 120!!!!!!

97 - what firm?

13: problems at several mcdermott offices, most notably boston, new york, and d.c.

72,

You fucking genius. I think you've solved pricing. Call U of C and Stanford. Tell their econ depts. to call everything off. You figured it out. You just pay a sticker price. There's nothing more!

Now get back to finals, dickwad. If you do well enough (and keep your mouth shut), you might be able to review documnets for a few years in BIGLAW before eveyone dicovers what a fucking moron you are!

What do you care, 64? This 'excursion' measure will allow Sidley to charge you less than they could if they kept these people as fulltime employees on the payroll and paid the full salary and all the over overhead associatated with having employees.

This article doesn't note that Kirkland incoming first years are still getting the traditional $10,000 stipend in addition to bar expenses.

33 - I agree.

33 - I agree.

120: MWE Chicago is incredibly slow too. Expect more layoffs soon.

News flash: Illinois Supreme Court Upholds Section 90 Promissory Estoppel Claims (Newton Tractor Sales, Inc. v. Kubota Tractor Corp., 2009 WL 886866 (Ill. Sup. Ct.).

Biglaw Chicago better watch out now...

McDermott DC is very slow and morale is low. The new leadership isnt doing anything to make people feel better. Alleged rainmakers are not bringing in anything new. It it depressing. I also heard that the firm is not being very reasonable on rate reductions so clients are not giving as much work. Supposedly, this is especially true for top clients that are not already billed at the lowest rate. I don''t know what people are thinking. Isn't it better to discount so attorneys are busy?

What the hell is going on with Fish and Richardson?

What the hell is going on with Fish and Richardson?

What the hell is going on with Fish and Richardson?

F&R has to be in some serious trouble if they haven't announced yet. You would think patent lit is strong, but prosecution is probably seriously lacking.

I wouldn't be surprised if F&R closed offices in some smaller markets...the ship be sinking...

School is officially over for most 3L's as of Friday. How have firms still not announced. That's some bullshit!

I interviewed at Patton Boggs in September last year. They never offered or no offered me. I called once a month until december. Never gave me an answer. Always was told, Info is coming soon. Needless to say I went with a different firm.

So happy I did. To not even give me an answer for 4 months, with 4 follow up calls was just plain unprofessional and rude (and I was not harrassing them, I called once a month only after they kept telling me it would be a week, then 3 weeks would pass). I had over 15 callbacks. I was given offers or dinged by every other firm. Now, them having no start date doesn't surprise me. They seem to have no consideration for others plans and are poor planners. Either way, good riddance. Sorry to those that are supposed to go there.

Being dinged didn't really hurt. I can handle rejection. But they basically never even had the courtesy to ding me.

They did ding you. If you don't have an offer, it is a ding. Nevertheless, they are rude and you are right to be happy not to be going there.

136 - You are right. I was just expecting the "thanks but no thanks letter." and when I called, I was just strung along. No, oh it's in the mail. Just "were still making our decisions."

I can't believe the cruelty of firms like Patton Boggs and Fish. These people must remember what it was like to be a young attorney...I must say this bullshit also frustrates me in regards to NALP. All of the rigid rules that we had to follow during interviews, the timing, etc. which have obvs. been totally disregarded by the firms.

NALP is to firms as the US is to the United Nations - NALP lays down rules for everyone and the firms (who asked for the rules in the first place) just ignore them.

I wonder if all the laid off lawyers got together if they would start ass pounding right away, or wait a few seconds.

Seriously, it boggles my mind these places wont just say something. Just tell them a "no earlier than" date or something. I'm not even going to one of the places that hasn't announced yet. However, man do I feel for these kids. I found out my start date 2 weeks ago and for the month before that I was bugging out. Hope they announce soon guys. It's a dick way to start out a job you were really excited for.

Fish is still offering a 12 week summer--not something a sinking ship would do.

Firms that haven't announced really need to. People are going to start bar/bri soon. It'll be hard to focus on studying for the bar and trying to learn the law that their schools never taught them while worried if they'll even have a job come next fall/winter.

I heard a rumor FR was just waiting for Kirkland to announce because they didn't want to announce a later date. I predict they match or beat KE's 11/30 next week.

You heard it here first.

Sidley's still better than Latham. And Kirkland's a whole nother league. It says a lot about Latham that the lawfirmchaos blog, summarizing firms' repsonse to the finanical crisis, has an 'Any Lathaming?' column.

Latham deserves to drop out of even the V20 or v30. Even if their revs/ppp stay up their PRESTIGE should drop. Their recruiting should pay the price for what they've done.

I heard they laid off 1/2 of their first years in NYC the day after vault surveys were due? Is that true?

Latham is done for. When I interviewed there, I hated it, yet all the lawschool career services people kept saying, "but they're a top 10 firm. that's fabulous." Needless to say, I chose the place that didn't make me feel like the awkward kid at the cool kids party. No layoffs, no deferral, same salary. The prestige thing is such bullshit. really, PPP should only matter to partners, not associates. it's retarded for law student to pick a firm based on that. As their chances of making partner are soo slim anyways, it really should be all about salary and job security. The prestige ranking is totally pointless. Much like the arguments of what school is more prestigiouos on this board. NEWSFLASH! It really doesn't matter. I bet if I chose latham I'd be laid off now. And so someone who went there may have more prestige than me, but I have a job. And hence, it means nothing.

147, agree re PPP. The higher the PPP the more pressure to keep it high.

Thus, there is likely an inverse relationship with PPP and job security. Also the prestige factor at the very very top firms seems to keep them from doing extrodinarily shading things to not hurt recruiting. But as Latham, weil, etc have shown, once you get out of the super boutiques there is just too much pressure to keep PPP high and associates just take it in the ass.

I disagree re LS prestige, which actually is directly linked to job opportunities.

148: I really mean law school prestige after OCI. I base this on if you work for 2+ years then lateral, it's more on what you did, practice areas, etc then lawschool. I know all the T14 kids will disagree. But from what I've seen, that stuff is bullshit. I'm also in IP work though, so maybe it's different in corporate, etc.

The firms that didn't defer will be able to attract top talent. The rest shall forever be remembered as the firms that COMPLETELY FUCKED OVER their incoming associates for 6 months-1 year. WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO FOR THOSE MONTHS? WHO WILL HIRE ME WHEN THEY KNOW I AM SUPPOSED TO START AT A FIRM IN JANUARY? AND THE BEST PART IS, I PROBABLY WONT BE STARTING IN JANUARY! BUT OF COURSE, I DONT KNOW SHIT AT THIS POINT AND SO CAN'T MAKE ANY PLANS!

If they defer me again I will leave and WILL NOT PAY BACK THE SALARY ADVANCE. THEY WILL NEED TO SUE MY ASS!

Fish's main peer firm Finnegan already announced an early Nov. start date.

ruh roh

The ONLY thing that you should be considering is whether you will get an offer after the summer and whether the firm will be standing long enough for you to be there one or two years. Then you will do what almost everyone does. You will lateral. Statistically speaking, hardly anyone stays at a firm to make partner. Most who do stay find that it is harder to make partner because the firm takes for granted that you won't leave (you were there for so long already) and they remember all the dumb things you did as a third year and it defines you for the remainder of your career. If you have choice, then go ahead and think about prestige etc. But it really does not matter because you don't know crap about what firm is good or bad. You won't until you work awhile. Some of the best firms are the ones you never hear about in law school (Kellogg Huber). So stop acting like you have a ton of choice or insight.

150, you're an ass

The only first years who should expect to start are those with Nov or earlier start dates.

Anyone with a Jan 2010 start date shouldn't be counting on starting. Many will, but once one firm starts rescinding offers, a market rate for offer rescinding is likely to develop and most of you are fucked.

Most Jan 2010 firms have no idea. They just picked that date to buy some time because it was what everyone else was doing.

In Jan we'll be discussing how the severance for rescinded first years between firms compare and what % of their first years actually get to start work.

Around then, we'll also see the effect of the salary freeze scheme...once the freeze laps itself, you would have frozen firms paying 160k to 1st thru 3rd years. Not likely.

We're all fucked. God bless and good luck.

hahahaha. I wonder if you don't pay back the salary advance and just never show up if the firm will actually spend the time to sue you? Would it even be worth it for them to sue you for a $10K salary advance. I wonder if one of your felllow classmates would be doing the paperwork for it. HAHAHAHAHA . Stupid greedy lawfirms.

According to callaw.com, Hewlett Packard legal has had a major brain drain and is hiring young inexperienced lawyers. If you don't mind Big law churn, unhappy colleagues, very low pay, and an insecure work environment, perhaps HP may be the place for you.

154 - I think if you are right, then some first years will start and also, some 1st years now (will be second years by then) will be let go. About 50% each class is what I'm thinking.

No one will sue, but attorneys talk. We all have friends at other firms. In most towns, the recruiters know each other too. So word will get out and you will be forever be known as the guy who did a dickish thing.

What is going on at Holland & Hart?

154 - you are dead fucking on. These January start dates are complete BS. I agree that firms will end up rescinding a significant % of offers and that a market for this will develop, just like what happened with the deferrals.

We are all fucked.

Yeah, I think those deferred have a shot. By then, a new round of performance based layoffs for this years first years will go through, knocking out a good half of those overinflated classes.

Not at my firm. We are talkiing about moving some date up because work has picked up

I think it's gonna be about half of 2009 class will have jobs come january. Same with the class of 2008. They were crazy over subscribed at many firms and by then, performance based layoffs can get rid of a good chunk of them.

I find it funny that a lot of comments on this board talk about how the class of 09 is screwed. Yet, just because most firms didn't lay off any 08 class yet does not mean they wont in the future. It will be less of a reputation hit for a firm to lay off a 2nd year than it would be to rescind the majority of incoming associates.

163 - the problem is that firms won't have a reputation issue if all the firms are rescinding. A firm like Dewey (just picked a random firm, so chill out) will rescind 50% of their offers, then firms like Milbank will follow suit. Pretty soon, every firm will rescind at least some of the offers.

We will be compensated financially, but our professional careers will be over.

164, I agree some firms will rescind offers. I am just saying that I don't think it will be as many as people are fear mongering about. If it needs to be a huge chunk of junior associates let go, I believe that the brunt of the rank slimming will be taken by current first years. I say about 50% of them will be gone come December. Then I think about 60% of incoming associates will start. That's all I was saying. It wont be 100% no class of 2009 but the class of 2008 is perfectly safe forever.

While deferral is terrible news for 3Ls, it is definitely far worse news for incoming Sidley summer associates. Now they have to compete with 20 associates from the prior class for jobs in the worst recession since WW2.

I have to agree--incoming summers at these firms are screwed..any advice?

advice - drop out of law school.

The advice is to do the best job you can and keep a low profile at the firm.

How do you meet people and make sure they like you and will be in your corner come decision time if you keep a low profile? 169, you must mean to say "don't do anything stupid."

are the firms even considering giving incoming summer associates an offer at this point

are the firms even considering giving incoming summer associates an offer at this point

170,

HAHAHAHA. like people will be in your corner. Here's the deal. You will spend most of your summer with associates whose opinion does not matter to the hiring committee. If you do something stupid and they hate you, then maybe their opinion will matter. But a 3rd year's opinion of you means nothing. Those who make the decisions you wont work for. It's basically, just don't piss people off. No one's gonna be in your corner. That has always been the rule.

regarding mcdermott:

the partnership got what it asked for -- it elected the js/ps ticket over the one candidate that could easily have betten either man: bb. disclosure: i always supported bobby, though not as vocally as perhaps i should have (not that my small voting share or 2-cents would have made any difference). but i know bobby, and the man would have been the right choice for the time and would be making different choices then the not-so-dynamic-duo. rather than elect the one candidate with the right balance of charisma, reputation, and leadership know-how, the firm instead got what it voted for: a double dose of mediocrity.

disgruntled partner (with a portable book).

170, 169 is right. No one's every in any summer's corner. They don't give a shit about you.

170 - don't drink the "how to guarantee an offer presentation put on by your shitty career services department" cool-aid dude.

174 - you are an idiot. Burchfield? Great powerpoint that was prepared by admin staff. He would have turned everything over to Koenan the Barbarian? A million dollars a year for 5 years? Who gets that guarantee in this environment? Lets negotiate his salary down and save a few associates. You have voting shares but you need to ask for more detail on Koenan and his expensive "Chiefs" and other admin appointees. They are the biggest money drain on the firm right now. Run a cost analysis on admin salarys prior to his arrival to now. It is up by millions.

PS/JS will make the right decisions - HF just needs to step aside.

I agree with 174. I think Bobby would have been better that Peter or Jeff. So did the rest of the partnership -- otherwise Peter and Jeff would not have run as a block. They could not win alone. Now, what I really think is that NONE of them are great. It is a relative question based on the slate presented. I wish someone better came out of the woodwork. I don't know Koenan that well. I think that the admin staff is the tail wagging the dog. It is pretty offensive that, as a partner, HR tells me how to think, speak and practice law.

There many firms that see MWE as a bad situation. If you really have a book, move firms. You will be happier.

McDermott is an awful place right now. The dual managing partners is yet more evidence that the firm is falling apart.

McDermott Chicago is miserable right now. There are far too many worthless partners who either lose business or can't bring in any business. If you can get out, get out!

There were posts for a while that MWE was not paying capital partners. Is that still true.

174, does it drive you nuts that the managment committee picks? Why is the firm so black box even with capital partners. I hate the idea that each capital partner does not get to see what the leadership is doing. The Management Committee is like a star chamber. The lack of information is even worse in outposts like Houston. It would have been better to stay at the old Texas-based firm than to make the jump to MWE. Oh well.

I wonder if Bobby regrets leaving Covington?

I have to laugh my ass off anytime one of you mentions the "reputation hit" (or similar wording) that a given firm will take if it rescinds offers, delays start dates, etc. Anybody who makes these comments is likely (i) still in law school or (ii) a very junior associate.

Here's the deal:

Firms generally do not care. Period. They just need to survive this onslaught. They believe that there will be another crop of people just like you to fill (swell?) the ranks should the need arise. Your ego makes you think you're irreplaceable; your skill set, for the most part, makes you fungible. Not a good position to be in.

Think about it: Firms have been engaging in stealth layoffs for the longest of times. You would think that the word would have gotten out about this, and that firms that engaged in this kind of crap would have "paid the price" in the market. Wrong. Why? Because, like most things, time healed that wound. They know there will be another class coming out in the spring, and that they will have a fresh batch of souls from which to choose. And, like you, each of those young fools will think "Hey, that was long ago. That won't happen to me. I was [fill in useless title] of the law journal/review. I'm hot shit. Besides, I have bills to pay." Ah, and it's that last bit that guarantees that I'm right.

For those who doubt what I'm saying, ask yourself if the firm that has rescinded your offer or delayed your start date engaged in "performance-based dismissals" in the past. The answer is almost certainly, Yes. Now, you still took the offer, didn't you? You'll say, "But that's fundamentally different." Is it? From whose perspective? Yours (it may very well be different)? The firm's? You're fooling yourself if you think they see any significant difference. Maybe a bit harsher, but from the firm's perspective it's basically all the same.

Still in doubt? Ask yourself why summer associates are going to show up for programs at firms that have delayed start dates and/or rescinded offers (forget about mass layoffs and performance-based dismissals). Don't worry. Like your musings about those who came before you, they will find a way to rationalize the shit burger chance and circumstance have force-fed you.

Bottom line: Firms don't give a shit. Period. What's worse: neither will the young associates yet to emerge on the scene.

Paul Weiss for the win?

184 - The reasonably intelligent 3L's are well aware the firms don't give a shit about us at this point. But let's face it, there will always be certain candidates -- call them "stars", "shooters", whatever -- who will be sought after by all the firms during OCI's. These candidates will be less likely to go to a firm that has revoked offers, or deferred start dates into oblivion.

That being said, firms will have to revoke offers at some point. These January deferrals are a complete joke, and any 3L who actually thinks this arbitrary date will somehow create a need for new associates at the firm is delusional.

All we can ask from our firms at this point is that they be HONEST with us. Don't string us along when you know that, unless fusion energy is discovered ushering in a new golden age, you will not take on new associates in January.

184 - The reasonably intelligent 3L's are well aware the firms don't give a shit about us at this point. But let's face it, there will always be certain candidates -- call them "stars", "shooters", whatever -- who will be sought after by all the firms during OCI's. These candidates will be less likely to go to a firm that has revoked offers, or deferred start dates into oblivion.

That being said, firms will have to revoke offers at some point. These January deferrals are a complete joke, and any 3L who actually thinks this arbitrary date will somehow create a need for new associates at the firm is delusional.

All we can ask from our firms at this point is that they be HONEST with us. Don't string us along when you know that, unless fusion energy is discovered ushering in a new golden age, you will not take on new associates in January.

i dont know whether to "express interest" in the pro bono deferral.

are they going to defer me anyway? why did they bother with this email instead of just deferring all of us like everyone else?

wtf

188 - don't make it easy for them. I wouldn't express interest in anything other than starting at the firm as soon as possible. If they are going to cut you, make them do it honestly, as painful as that may be for the partner who will call you to tell you the bad news.

mcdermott -- (responses from 174).

177: (a) you overstate the degree to which bobby would have punted to koenan, but you're on the mark regarding admin expenses. (b) a million for 5 years is high, but i'd reconsider other deals first.

178: "I wish someone better came out of the woodwork." fine. but who could have won?

179: conflicts and clients complicate things. i'm comfortable (not cozy). and in this market, i'd take comfort over complications and promises of greener grass.

182: (a) "The lack of information is even worse in outposts like Houston." houston was a mistake. it was a pet project of someone in management who pressed the issue a bit too hard. (b) "It would have been better to stay at the old Texas-based firm than to make the jump to MWE." then go back to akin or bracewell or whereever else you were before, cowboy.

ATL should really do a comprehensive analysis of the top 30 firms and how they've treated existing and incoming associates. Weighed against how the firms are doing based on publicized 2008 statistics and what we can glean about them in 2009 based on practice group diversification, publicized big cases and bankruptcies, and the general state of the economy and M & A activity.

Listen, summers. Many people here don't know what they're talking about. You do want to be friendly and you do want to be outgoing. And you do want to work hard and do a great job on the assignments you do get.

Also, very importantly, you should express interest in the busy practice groups. Social interaction IS important, and the people that are going to get offers are the ones that do go work for practice groups that can hire people and both Partners and associates like. And the Partners definitely do make some effort to get to know summers on a social level, at least at my firm. And beyond that mine their favorite, so-called 'useless' associates for information on what the summers are like.

184, firms will certainly take a reputation hit. They will do so because they have no choice for the most part. But everyone will remember the better managed firms that were ABLE to treat existing and incoming associates better.

More importantly, there are differences in how similarly situated firms have treated existing and incoming associates. Some in similar financial situations have responded better than others.

It's absolutely going to have some impact on recruiting even now. Even in this economy, there will be incoming associates that have options. These are things that will be considered in making choices. And it will certainly have an impact when the economy improves. The fact that this is the last thing on the mind of the firms and that they couldn't, in many cases, act any differently doesn't change these realities.

MWE's Houston office is a joke.

MWE's administrative staff is overpaid and worthless. MWE can very easily cut costs by trimming its administrative staff. There are so many "administrators" in the firm, and I still have no idea what any of them do, other than socialize at the free friday morning breakfast. It's pathetic.

184 is a third year or younger. Anyone who has actually lived through past recessions has seen firsthand that firms' conduct during the recession has affected their ability to recruit talent. This remains true when the firms thought their actions were either justified or necessary.

MCDERMOTT: from the perspective of a DC gal.

When BB joined a few years ago, he came charging in fast and with a loyal following. It was exciting to pick him and his crew up -- I was relatively junior then, but not so junior that I couldn't appreciate his solid reputation. It made sense to welcome him to the office at the time we did: he offered us new energy and some young blood.

I was eager to try cases with the guy, but I quickly learned that he had his own plan of how things would work. It was around that time that I felt the need to "choose my loyalty," and my loyalty was to another. And, in what hindsight shows was a well-thought-out manner, he and his henchmen quickly tried to take over the department. And then the office. It was no surprise when he tried to take over the firm.

He's a solid litigator and he knows it (just read his bio -- it brings fresh definition to an "I love me memo."). And I like his vision generally, but not his overt politics. But there is some irony to his vision (e.g., recruiting from the top schools though he couldn't hack it himself with the best; kicking out a NYC partner to make room for his clients; etc.). Still, though, he is a good attorney and he has always been nice to me.

I'm not privy to issues such as staff costs, his salary, his "chiefs," the cost of his "admin appointments," or the other things that 174, 177, and 178 commented on. Nor have any of you given me reason to think there would be any material difference between how he would be running the firm in this market than our two (really, three) leaders are. To me, the chairmanship seems relatively unimportant compared to my old firm, given the power of the management committee.

it seems like just another notch that BB wanted for his belt. If I had voting shares, though, I may have voted for him: he is cuter than the other candidates on the slate and I've always found old-school mustangs to be a turn-on!

187 - "shooters" ? No summer is that great. Get over it. They just make you feel that way. . . it's part of the plan. They really, really don't give a shit.

You are obviously a delusional 2L.

lol, you mean gunners? lol

196: BB.

Summer's:

Here's the deal. Really, it is not that hard. I know it might be competitive at certain firms this summer, or you may think it will be, but honestly, there are only a few criteria you are judged by. You are not supposed to know everything. You don't. We get that. It will not be a slaughterhouse. If your firm is competitive with offers this summer, I bet a lot of it will have nothing to do with what you did, but more so on practice areas, schools, etc. You can't change that. So, I hope this helps, but here is some actual advice. Good luck:

1. Show up on time, leave on time, don't disappear for hours a day. simple, easy, what one should be doing anyways when they are getting a $3K a week paycheck. Whatever you've heard about you being there doesn't matter may be true, but why risk it. Someone will notice the gal who gets off the elevator at 11am every day. Word gets around.

2. If you've ever worked in an office you will know this, but since many of you haven't, head these words wisely: AN OFFICE IS LIKE A HIGHSCHOOL LOCKER ROOM, GOSSIP RUNS RAMPANT AND EVERYONE KNOWS. Don't date a co-worker, associate, paralegal, another summmer, etc. Just don't. There are millions of people in NYC, pick somoene else to screw. If it's true love, then the love will survive waiting 2 months before you act on it. So, if your felllow summer might be the one, wait until you recieve an offer to do something about it.

3. Communicate. The one complaint I got and give with summers is that they need to communicate with me. I remember getting an assignment from a senior associate as a summer. She told me to keep up with it all summer, as it was a long-term project. I thought he always seemed busy, so I kept up on the project without telling him. About 3 weeks after the assignment he called me and asked how it was going. I let him know. He said, "great. But do me a favor, and keep me updated on your progress." If you have a long-term job, check in once a week with a friendly email. I do it now all the time, and people appreciate it.

4. Don't be the drunk asshole at events.

5. Go to most events. If you have to miss one or two, don't worry. Just try to go to 90% of them. And always make sure you don't bail out on work for an event.

6. Be nice to support staff. Simple, easy, they can help you out sooo much.

7. ask questions. If you get a research assignment, don't just jump on Lexis and spend hours pointlessly searching. If you have no clue where to start ask the librarian. At our firm as summers we had a little Pow-wow with the librarian one of the first days. Her speal was "I'm here to help you guys. I don't judge you. If you don't have a clue where to start or have a dumb question, don't feel embarrassed and ask me." It's so true. They have had summers and attorneys for years asking them questions about researchc assingments and can really help you out, especially with a starting point.

8. Smile and be nice. It's a long summer with lots of bullshit. The amount of small talk you do is insane. It will get boring. You will get sick of it. By the end of the summer you are not going to want to go to some event and bullshit about "how's the summer going." Have a cocktail, suck it up, and be nice and just do it.

9. Dress conservatively and well, but not too flashy. Men, make sure your clothes are ironed and not too casual, but no need to suit it up everyday if you don't have to. Women, keep the skirts below the knees and the cleavage out of sight. Also, sleeveless is usually a no go, as is open toed shoes. No matter what the men on this board may say, the women will talk about it. Also, if other women at the firm dress this way, it does not mean you should. There's a lady partner at my firm who dresses in revealing clothes. She's a partner. She can dress how she wants. You're on a job interview. Black pants and a button down shirt are a better bet for you then the sleeveless, low cut wrap dress.

Please can I tell dirty jokes over the summer please? Shit gets boring otherwise.

196 -- My initials aren't BB, but I have an old-school mustang. Wanna meet up?

Horney_Associate@mcdermott.com

196 -- My initials aren't BB, but I have an old-school mustang. Wanna meet up?

Horney_Associate@mcdermott.com

196: you're an idiot. Let's vote the cutest! You're the typical McDermott attorney. You make business decisions based on non-business reasons. You're yet another example of why McDermott sucks.

If we voted for cutest, Jeff would have won. He is handsome and taller than Bobby.

196, how to placing your loyalty elsewhere work out? I have heard that Bobby does not take kindly to that.

How pathetic is it that there are about 3 McDermott ladies/gays on here just hashing out the cuteness of some old lawyer dude. It's Sunday. Please go get a life.

Bobby's white mustage is not all that. It might be vintage but it is not a classic like a 60's version might be

Bobby's white mustage is not all that. It might be vintage but it is not a classic like a 60's version might be

The houston experiment is from a guy that routinely lets his big ego and stubborn nature get in the way of reasoned management.

189/Scared 3L:

I agree with your advice to 188. Ijust dont think theres any chance a partner is going to call him or her up and rescind the offer, or fire them, or whatever. That hasnt happened and Sidley- for better or for worse- has never been a trendsetter.

If the firm doesnt get as many deferrals as they want- and they really just might, seeing as 75K plus benefits isnt a bad deal- they will probably defer everyone to January 2010 and then wait and see what everyone else does then.

Remember, Sidley's incoming associate class is relatively small and Sidley has a few busy groups. If you're not going into one of the obviously dead practice areas, call Sidley's bluff. Has Latham or Skadden or Shearman or Weil or Schulte etc. etc. rescinded offers from people after offering this type of program? Not that I'm aware of.

189 - if I got offered the 75K year long deferral I'd take it. I know my friends at Sherman and Latham jumped on the deal. So if you don't want to do it, then don't. There are many who would love it so it is completely logical that others will take it.

I meant 188, sorry

211

200 - great list. Let me add on point 6 that the staff is also a great source for information - both with respect to partner's work habits and what they like (and don't like) to see, as well as knowing the inns and outs of the local rules for state, federal and bankruptcy courts etc. At my office, staff is also asked to give feedback on the SA candidates, so be very nice...

10. Follow-up with the responsible attorney after turning in your assignment, and request feedback. The reason for this is three-fold: First, if it is a "real work" assignment, chances are you will get substantive feedback and will need to do additional research/drafting, and you need to know how much work remains on the project. I've has SAs tell me, when I come back with revisions and follow-up work, that they have already acepted new assignments and they do not know when they have time to finish my project. Second, if this is a bullshit research and drafting assignment, chances are the responsible attorney will not have time to look at it before having to grade you at the end of the program. You will then end up with an OK grade on the project, and miss an opportunity to stand out. Third, it shows that you take responsibility for your projects and that you are seeking to improve your performance.

11. Despite of what you have learned on ATL, rely sparingly, if at all, on the Restatement 2d of Contracts to support causes of action where a promise needs to be enforced...

The letter was going out of its way to nicely say "half of you are not coming here in the fall, no matter what."

sidley is going to reduce its incoming associates in every office, no question. i would jump on it now, when 75K is attached to it, rather than wait until later, especially if you have something in mind that you can do.

More summer advice:

Don't be too cool. Not only is it rude to alienate other summers, but really, you're not cool. You just come off as being a tool. In my summer class there were the associates who always went out late night drinking after events with the summers and the summers who always talked about how awesome "late night is. Gotta hang dude" However, once in a while other associates/partners show up too. And just becasue it's ok behavior with some of the regular late night associates does not mean it is with all of them. I know when I was a summer an associate I worked with regularly now told me about how he went out with some of us and one kid in my class started telling him about how he was sooo wasted last week at teh after event he puked and how funny it was. As if it was a competitiion and badge of honor of how cool he was. Needless to say, he was a senior associate who is now a partner and he was not amused.

Believe me. Stuff like that sticks for years to come. To this day, he does not like the guy. Thinks he showed a lack of maturity and appropriateness.

Also, the associates you're drinking with late night all summer long usually have no life of their own to be spending soooo much time with you. Have fun with them, but keep in mind it's kind of stupid. Think if in 3-4 years that's what you really want to be doing with your life? Hanging out with some law school gunners? Or would you rather be out with your real friends?

And for God sakes watch who you hook up with. Yes, things have changed, but there are still folks who will be offended by too much screwing or too many partners. Is it fair? No. Do people talk? You bet. Can it be held against you? Yes.

And the +1 is for spouses, fiances, significant others over a 1-2 year plus relationship that you expect to be a spouse or fiance soon. It boggled my mind some kid last year brought his girlfriend of 5 months to the first event, then by later in the summer they were over with. He only brought her as a security blanket. Moreover, he was 32 and she was 20. It was beyond stupid. All the later events people asked "where's Jen?" Why do that to yourself? Most summer's go without a date to these events. You can too.

what makes you think firms will let summers bring a +1 this summer? what a waste of money.

I'll be making offers to summer- after they give that ass up...dude first, then chicks

I hate to sound bitter, but it seems to me that summer performance doesn't make an ounce of difference in this economy. Firms will defer/revoke entire classes without ever looking at summer reviews. I really thought I would be safe because I was consistently told how "great my work was" and how "everyone in [a particular practice] group was excited for me to start". Did this make a difference when they deferred us all into oblivion? Nope. I am in the same boat as those summers who got drunk all day/night -- i.e., fucked beyond all belief.

220:

If you got an offer from a practice group that is apt to be busy now (e.g., tax, bankruptcy, energy, health care) or in a office that is apt to be busy (not NYC), then I would stay in touch with an attorney in your practice group and let them know your availability to start early. Work pops up. You can try to be part of the solution. Don't be a pest, but stay visiable. My firm deferred, but some associates are being asked to start on time.

220:

If you got an offer from a practice group that is apt to be busy now (e.g., tax, bankruptcy, energy, health care) or in a office that is apt to be busy (not NYC), then I would stay in touch with an attorney in your practice group and let them know your availability to start early. Work pops up. You can try to be part of the solution. Don't be a pest, but stay visiable. My firm deferred, but some associates are being asked to start on time.

195--

You seem to have missed my point. My point was that firms in this environment generally do not care about any sort of "reputational hit" they will take as a result of their actions, not whether or not it will happen. My point, also, is that the "hit" to their reputation--if it in fact happens--is of far less concern than the hit to their wallets/purses. That is the "hit" they care about. Nothing and noone else. Period.

Firms like Shearman & Sterling and Wilson Sonsini (and other firms) that banged some of their associates pretty hard when the tech bubble burst still managed to do pretty well in recruiting from 2002-2008 (at least judging by a sampling of some of the bios on their respective websites). You can tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better. The fact that associates have to appeal to their firm's sense of enlightened self interest--if you let us go, the firm will suffer in the long run--amply demonstrates that associates have no bargaining power here. Period.

Oh, and by the way, I am far more senior than 3 years out. I have vivid memories of the last downturn and its effect(s) on associates. My comments here could have just as easily been posted back in 2002. Which bears out another point I made above--most associates have very short memories. Right now they'll chant "We'll never forget." But this too shall pass.

Come talk to me around 2012 and we'll ask the average 2L about which firm did what during the depression. Chances are, she will not have a clue about what either of us is talking about and politely excuse herself because she does not want to be late to her interview for a RMBS/CMBS position with CWT or Latham. And the cycle will repeat itself, hopefully without the rinse cycle we're in now.

184

132- Litigation at Fish has slowed down a bit, but the prosecution has not slowed down as much. The work flow varies from office to office regardless of whether the work is prosecution or litigation. Some Fish offices are slow in both lit and pros.

Are summer offers made office to office or firmwide? Are you at all safer (relatively) if you're working at the main office instead of a branch?

223 - They didn't have sites like ATL and http://www.lawfirmchaos.com back in 2002 so there is more of a chance that the law firm decisions made during this recession will affect 2L and lateral decisions in the future.

so is there any chance to get into Sidley Chi. corp dept? I'll be there this summer.
-midrange at HLS

223, not 195, but I think it's more that you missed others' point. The point was not that that firms in this recession care less about the bottom line than their reputation. Cleraly they do care more about profitability and sustainability than reputation. But reputation still WILL take a hit.

Firms have suffered from their actions in the last recession. Shearman & Sterling is certainly one. It did take a real hit prestige and the talent is can attract. Obviously that doesn't mean no one is ever going to go there again. Or that there won't be some impressive peope there. No one is saying that.

Also, as another poster mentioned, they didn't have websites like this than. And some firms have acted far more egregiously this time around, albeit this recession is far more severe.

People here are also urging use of this website to marshall forces and HOLD firms accountable to ensure that there are consequences to firms for how they have behaved in this recession. That's why I think the suggestion of 191 is an excellent one (see above). But I'll recap it:

ATL really SHOULD do a comprehensive analysis of the top 30 firms and how they've treated existing and incoming associates. It should weigh this against how the firms are doing based on publicized 2008 statistics. And and available 2009 info based on practice group diversification, publicized big cases and bankruptcies, and the general state of the economy and M & A activity.

It would be really nice to be able to compare apples to apples. Certainly if I was still in law school, I would want to know which firms abandon associates in hard times (or which are simply poorly managed, bloated, nondiversifed dinosaurs with a high Vault rating) and which laid off associates becasue they were in serious financial distress.

ATL really needs to be a place where information like this can crystallize. Honestly, this is something that SHOULD matter to students. In good econmic times, big firms are largely the same aside from differences in cultural and such things. But bad times really show what a poor measure the Vault rankings can be and the real differentiation of firms.

By the same token, 228 et. al, the Vault rankings need some revamping.

As far as I'm aware, the amount of debt firms carry and prctice group diversification are not reflected in the current methodology.

They should be. PPP and the like is important, but that's not what it's all about. Both of these factors affect a firm's ability to weather diffcult economic times (and retain employees through them). This should certainly be a factor in what's considered a 'top firm.'

224 - You seem to be in the know...any scoop on when/if Fish hires might get to start working?

People are really not getting this. The "Program" was modeled after PILI fellowships, which Sidley Chicago long has sponsored for new employees who want to do public interest work while studying for the Bar exam. (Other firms also sponsor PILI's, but for less money and only for a certain number of people.) The idea behind extending this program for a year is to allow new attorneys to get as much experience as they want to get during their first year of practice and to give something back to the community (the Sidley Foundation is a not-for-profit enterprise). The fact that the Program temporarily trims a very large starting class in difficult financial times is certainly important, but not the primary reason for its existence.

The "if they chose to do so" phrase means just what it says. If you choose to return to the firm, you may do so. If you choose not to, you don't have to. That's a significant point, because certain other firms that have tried this sort of thing in the past required some period of indentured servitude in exchange for the participation. We don't.

231: You appear to be a Sidley insider. What's your plan if you don't get enough associates signing up for the Program?

I am starting my summer at McDermott in DC (Trial/IP) - any advice?

233:

Q U I T K N O W !