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Given that I graduated with $250,000 in debt and have no job, I'd rather go to a hell world like Salusa Secundus than rub my elbows with you whining Third-tier associates.

4th Tier?

These schools are essentially a scam for untalented college students. If this is your only alternative, you need to be going for free or not at all.

This includes expenses.

I don't know about S.Ct. clerk, but one could certainly be an ATL editor out of the third or fourth tier.

(in verse)

I'm an asshole
I'm an asshole
I'm an asshole till I die.

But I'd rather be an asshole
than a 3rd Tier kind of guy.

Unless you get a full scholarship that requires no minimum GPA to maintain DO NOT ATTEND ANY OF THESE SCHOOLS.

It's a waste of money, time, and effort.

WOOHO!!! the "little h" dropped to 100!!
a few more spots and we're talk'n second tier, baby!!!

3: Dune references are TTT. My guess: you'd rather do a lot of things than rub elbows with a real person.

If they come in the best and the brightest, they're probably going to leave the best and the brightest, O.K.?

---------------------------------------------

Wow, just wow.

Did he tell her to " go grab [her] shinebox" after this exchange?

When talking about third tier, would that include Brooklym once US News corrects "inadvertent errors" Brooklyn made in reporting only its full time class stats?

what most of you douchebags don't realize is that most big firms love 3rd tier students who are in the top 10 of their class (not top 10%, but top 10). These students have their choice of which big firm to work for. Too hard to do that well at law school? Not really -- the majority of 3rd tier students I know didn't really try to do well because they are morons, but if you work your ass off at a 3rd tier school, you will do very well and you will get many offers. Maybe Scalia wouldn't hire you, so if that's your goal in life, then I agree you shouldn't even bother with law school.

10 - Dune references are not TTT. However, the TTT schools that this thread is about are TTT.

- Not 3

12: Yawn. Give it up. Nobody cares about the competition between Fordham, Brooklyn, and Cardozo. Seriously, the rest of the world can care less about who claims third best in NYC.

Its a shame the ALA doesn't do what the AMA does - limit the number of accredited institutions based on industry needs and quality of a school's output. If someone can't get a 2.5 GPA in college or a 150 on the LSAT, there's no reason why said person should be allowed to become a lawyer.

Cooley > *.law school

My TTT loan-free JD is looking pretty good right now. I still have a BigLaw job and get to watch Columbia and NYU students pack their boxes and try to figure out how to pay that $200,000 in law school loans back.

TTT is what it is. If you work hard and graduate in the top 10% you'll have your choice of firms. You'll have to work hard while your a lawyer for the first few years and then no one cares where you went to school.

Scalia might be a little bitter - he applied for a professorship at WCL about 30 years ago. He didn't get the job.

Big firms do love top 10 at a 3rd tier, but there are at least 100 students in every TTT class who went there planning to be top 10. If you could have gone to a good school, but opted for the TTT scholarship, assuming you'd be top 10 and sitting pretty, it's a big risk.

Bear with me here for a second. Let's just say I'm a really bright student. I apply to Samford, thinking that I am really applying to a school further West with a similar-sounding name.

I finish three years of law school only to discover that I graduated with a law degree from Samford. Assume further that the name of the school was either negligently or intentionally mispronounced so as to sound like the name of the school further West.

Is there any - and I mean any - contractual claim that I might have against Samford, having reasonably relied on the prestige of this school in accordance with its efforts to suggest kinship with the other law school out West. Something from the Restatement of Contracts comes to mind here.

Alternatively, can I sue Coke Zero for taste infringement if it really does taste like Coke, which it does?

TYIA.

I go to a 4th tier school and am transferring to a top 50 school in the fall. I am clerking this summer for a fortune 10 company. I work my ass off and don't apologize to my fellow students for my hard work. I want to work at BigLaw after I graduate.

Having said that, I am in the minority. Most students want to 'work with children' or prosecute/defend crimes. I am willing to bet most of these students could wax the floor with a t14 in a criminal trial without breaking a sweaTTT.

21, I think you may have a claim for promissory estoppel. Is there consideration? If not, you may be in luck!

There are thousands of extremely successful TTT grads out there, including some of the best bigfirm lawyers I've worked with.

But most T3 grads are heavily in debt and not terribly successful. It's a huge gamble that most people lose.

Sigh. Yes, the top ten percent (although it's often ten people) may do well and end up making big law salaries but let's be serious here. You have a 90 percent chance of being out on your ass with 150K plus of debt. Black jack has better odds. Everything thinks they're smart. But law school is random in terms of grades.

Like I said. 90 percent chance of being fucked. Who's take those odds? Absent a full ride without a GPA minimum.

21:
It sucks that you put so much work into that and it still came out so shitty.

21, die in a fire.

Latham really fell this year if they didn't even make the third tier.

As soon as the market clears up, S&C will recruit only at these schools.

I don't think they're welcome at OCIs at my school in the fall anymore.

At graduation my TT dean said "look, you have all worked hard so I have decided to put 100% of graduates in the top 10%."

Look, every fucker thinks they are going to "work hard" and get in the top 10%....are you going to gamble $150,000 on a 1 in 10 chance????? Blackjack has better odds.....

"but you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse"

typo or ironic time to transpose?

13 = hopeful 1L at a third tier.

If you go to a TTT, you should work your ass off in the first year and transfer. Period.

Comment removed by moderator.

I went to a crappy undergrad and NYLS grad. I never tried as an undergrad so I got shit grades. Same could be said for NYLS. I finished in 2008 and currently work for DLA Piper. And most of the clowns in the top 15% got big firm jobs.

So while these schools suck, you'd have to be a real moron to not get a job. Even in this economy.

27 -

I think you are the same person who told some idiot to "die in a fire" way back in november when the ny bar website was slow. If you are that person, I just want to let you know that I will never stop finding that funny.

third tier isn' that bad if you're planning to stay within the region. take univ. of hawaii for example. it's the only law school in hawaii and resident tuition is very cheap.

and as others have pointed out, if you're in the top 5%, you can still get a biglaw job. i personally know ppl who work for biglaw and graduated top near the top of their class from golden gate law school. it also helps if you get an LLM from a top tier school though.

rumor is that s&c is going to recruit primarily from the third tier from now on. Recruiting from the t-14 hasn't been working out -- over 10% of their new associates turn out to be awful, forcing them to lay associates off (nothing to do w/ the economy, mind you). S&C is hoping that grads from American will be "sui generis" awesome.

35 - what do you do for DLA piper? there are no 2008 nyls grad attorneys there

I went to a TTT for free and got a sweet government job. My undergrad and living expense loans will get forgiven in 10 years so I'll be 35 and debt-free making $90k a year. Not a bad deal at all.

The offshore legal services industry is poised for enormous growth. Exponential projections of industry estimates compete for hyperbole with the intensity perhaps not dissimilar to that of a fortune tellers gaze into a crystal ball. Even so, it is accurate to say that credible players in this industry have collectively just scratched the surface of the immense potential that lies ahead.

http://www.offshoringtimes.com/Pages/2009/BPO_news2500.html

39 -- you noticed that as well, no mention of being an associate.

35 -- IT sounds like DLA Piper confused NYLS with NYU LS when they hired you. By posting on this board, you bring attention to their error, and risk that someone there will try to fix it.

Amen to 16. There need to be more barriers to entry for the legal profession, so those of us who are in it will have more job security and higher incomes.

31 - "[Y]ou can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse."

I think Scalia meant what he said. The students who get into the H-Y-S schools are like silk purses. And even the faculty at those schools "may not teach very well," the students they're teaching are still brilliant - and the ones he wants to hire as his clerks.

Scalia hires from GW; clearly TTT

39 - Nice catch. I wanted to look up 35 since there couldn't be more than 1 or 2 NYLS grads at DLA. Turns out, I was giving NYLS too much credit.

I'm an AUSA. I didn't go to a 3rd tier (I went to a 2nd tier, though) but plenty of my co-workers did. When I worked in another federal agency, there were also plenty of regional 3rd tier J.D.s.

Maybe biglaw is out of the question for most 3rd tier grads, but you can still get a decent job in government with virtually any J.D. if you have the grades and you bust your ass building your resume. And that's that, really. At the end of the day, nobody in my office gives a shit what school you went to if you have experience, and since we only hire experienced attorneys, the school on your diploma is about 30th on the list of considerations for those the office interviews for AUSA positions. Same with other federal agencies that don't hire a lot straight out of school.

People reading this site need to be reminded that biglaw is only a very small segment of the legal world, and to most people, not even the most desirable segment to work in, large salaries or not.

45, I would never want to clerk on the SCOTUS. But to say that a 3rd/4th tier school fails to churn out quality law students is farcical. I'll take a TTT prosecutor over a t14 corporate attorney doing pro bono work in the criminal courthouse any day of the week.

-31

Scalia also hires from ND....ew

I love how the majority of this site thinks that if you're not making $160K right out of law school, so that you can live in a dumpy apartment in an urban cesspool working 12 hours a day, then you're somehow "out on your ass" and a complete failure. The disconnection of this mentality from the real world is stark.

6 - I'm not so sure about that. Can you imagine how much (more) abuse Lat and Mystal would get if they weren't Yale and Harvard Law grads?

A Harvard or Yale degree obviously isn't necessary to run a legal blog. But given the credentials snobbery of the ATL readership, it certainly helps.

If the ATL editors were third-tier grads, every other comment would be, "You went to a TTT, and that's why you're a blogger instead of a practicing lawyer."

51, you're right. I think I should file a promissory estoppel claim against ATL if I don't have a $160k+ job in May 2011.

37 - Hell YES on Hawaii. It was in T2 last year but fell because of the new part time program. Seriously, you can't ask for a better third tier gig. Unless you hate the sun, then maybe not so much.

Prestige whores, who gives a shit. Scalia included. Only a moron would hire a mediocre Harvard student over a top student at one of these other schools.

55 - Of course you'd take a 10 percent at a tier 3 over a top 50 percent at a tier 1.

But wouldn't you take a top 10 percent at a tier 1 over a top 10 percent at a tier 3?

Or a top 50 percent at a tier 1 over a top 50 percent at a tier 3?

All things being equal, the higher ranked the law school, the better.

Ok, who started this obsession with random references to Section 90?

Here we come!!

Northeastern School of Law in the USNWR 2011 rankings.

77 --> 87 --> 94 --> will be equivalent to Suffolk

Sigh. Yes, government agencies are less school picky. And yes, if you can get in as a lateral, it's a decent living.

But here is the thing motherfuckers. DEBT.

That's why the 120-160K starting jobs are sought out. If you're carrying 120-250K of debt, it's going to be incredibly rough going those first 5-10 years out of the law school. And like others on the thread said. It's top 10 percent (and only at certain local market schools) that land these sorts of jobs. Otherwise, it's insurance defense and other poorly paid work, including government work which often starts around 40K a year for state work and 50-60K for federal work (which is hella competitive and you're not getting without the grades, in which case you're probably going to a well paying firm).

The T3-4 is a mess. And I wouldn't touch it without a full ride with no GPA limitations for its renewal. It's not worth the life stress. Seriously.

Hawaii is a public school that is affordable and that legal market is one of the most insular in this country. It's really the exception.

I would make the same sort of argument about Golden Gate or Chapman. Ugh.

Mercer's legal writing program is ranked number 2 in the country.

61. That is the most terrible reason to go to a law school. I don't care where Mercer is fucking ranked. I care that it's expensive and its grads tend to fall on the lower end of the starting associate bimodal distribution.

Weak sauce, dude.

56- All things are rarely equal. There are many factors other than grades, including but not limited to recommendations, experience and quality of writing, legal and otherwise, to consider when ranking candidates. Grades are for employers the kind of shorthand that LSAT scores are for law schools: as a general rule, they signify legal talent, but individual cases can only be understood with respect to specific contexts. Thus, to say that X from a TTT is equal to Y from a T14 because of grades can often do a disservice to one or the other party. In fact, if you were hiring, you would probably never make this simple equation. You'd look at (or at least, you really ought to look at) the whole resume, if not the whole candidate.

McGeorge (university of the pacific) law school is in 3rd Tier, but I was interviewed by a few McGeorge graduates during OCI for Paul Hastings. Goes to show that 3rd tier gradautes can make it to big law.

Lol. 35 is probably a staff atty or contract atty for DLA. Actually, do they hire those? I'm not sure being a contract atty instead of an associate counts as "getting biglaw."

So then why doesn't Scalia hire more clerks form OSU? His logic seems to be failing him here, or is this his attempt at being PC...

64. That this a fucking dumb reason to go to McGeorge. One person working at Paul Hasting is not a way to base spending over 100K. You might as well say, well I saw that lady win a million bucks playing the slots.

Seriously people? Let's be honest about the truth of job prospects out of these schools.

Franklin Pierce, because of its IP program, punches well above its weight in terms of opportunities to land a BigLaw job after graduation, particularly if you have a technical degree.

In addition, living in NH is cheap, which results in lower (though still significant) post-grad loans than many other schools.

Law school, no matter where, is a gamble if you are paying your own way. But the further down you move in the LS rankings, the steeper the odds. If you really want to do BigLaw IP and can't go T-25, Pierce is a better bet than most other options.

-- Pierce Law Grad BigLaw Partner

What is the rationale for going to one of these schools and paying full tuition? I've never seen any BigLaw attorneys from one of these schools ... the chances of hitting it big are so slim --- it's amazing the schools are able to get people to attend

Let's say I am your standard liberal-arts graduate, maybe a history or English or poli-sci major. I don't have an interest in, or background for, medicine or technology or finance.

Isn't law school my best bet? What else am I supposed to do with myself?

70. No. Become a teacher. Take the foreign service exam. Get a one year MA and go be a government drone (which should cost 30k max). Unless you're going to a good law school (top ten), it's risky.

I went to law school because I thought it would be challenging and fun in an academic way. It was frustrating and annoying instead. After 3 years I'm already tired of the law, but I have at least 5-10 years to repay loans before I can switch careers.

Way to suck the fun out of life, law school. I even have a good job, but I'm past caring sometimes. Sigh . . . should've stuck with something/anything else. At least I'm still young.

70, die in a fire?

72. You won't be when those loans are paid off.

21: On a hot summer day when it's 90 degrees outside, and you're trying to figure out how to repay your 90 thousand in student loans, it's been 90 days since your last job interview and you haven't heard anything, think real hard and maybe you can remember a section of the Restatement that might apply.

All of these schools should close. I know that the professors would have to find other jobs, but they could just go to their schools' placement offices, which do wonders in helping students find jobs.

21 that is hilarious. I'll bring that suit for you. I interviewed for a job at Samford in career services a few years back (Thank God I didn't get it.) The director I interviewed with was an idiot. And he actually told me that his office only works to get jobs for the top 10%, everyone else is on their own. These schools are a scam. They claim all sorts of crap in their glossy promotional material, then when students graduate, most are screwed and in huge debt.

72: I hope you have a job with a large firm, because if you're unhappy now, I want to see your comment(s) after a few months at the firm. Actually... a good chance you'll be a statistic like a few have become in the last few weeks

This post is generating relatively few comments because the majority of TTT students are too stupid to work the Internet.

***********************************************************
don't knock the DLA staff attorney program without first getting the facts strait.
***********************************************************
1. FACT: DLA staff attorneys get paid starting at 85k/year, plus substantial bonus.
2. FACT: 85k (91k, post bonus, last year) is more than you unemployed jerks make (unless unemployment insurance pays 91k !!!).
3. FACT: out of the 7 staff attornies in my office: 1 went to a "T25" school and 4 of us were in the second tier. We do not hire "bottom of the barrel"; rather, the program is highly competative and many of us chose this over associate-track positions because of the quality of life, regular partner and client contact, regular hours, and high quality work.
4. FACT: many of the people who are knocking DLA on this board could not get hired as staff attorneys in my office.
5. FACT: many of us get positions of high responsibility very quickly. For example, in my first year in the program (whicj indeed was my first year out of law school!), the firm allowed me to supervise a large document review project. In my capacity, I managed 8 contract attorneys and a paralegal in the review of a request for production from a FEDERAL agency. Seriously, how many people on this board actually can say that -- as a first year -- they MANAGED other attorneys.

You really shouldn't call something "TTT" untill you know.

80 you are so full of shit they need a new phrase for it.

If you're not going to a top law school, the only thing that is going to matter is grades and connections. If you have the latter, fuck making money and go be a politician or whatever. Like many do.

For the rest of us, you're fucked if you don't do well. Curves are hard lined and school as an experience will suck because everyone is gunning for the top ten. Shit storm.

Aside from a few exceptions, such as IP and places like Hawaii and Howard, these schools are an utter waste. and even the exceptions can suck ass.

80: can't tell if that is a glorious flame or something really really really sad

This has been mentioned, but it bears being repeated:

Just because you know somebody that went to a low ranking school, who wound up doing well, does not mean that route should be considered -- That makes as much sense as me saying I know of people who got rich playing the lottery, so that's a good route to take.

Anecdotes are not as important as averages and while some in the top 10% may get a big law job (and everybody would have been gunning to be in that 10%), the bulk will get 55-60k jobs in addition to (if they attended a private school) six figures of debt...assuming they don't graduate unemployed.

You may say "people will look at your experience and your school won't," but your law school is what helps you to get that experience and the practice of law is one of the most credential-focused fields of work in America (I am **not** saying this is a good thing, but it's there).

Even despite all this, I wouldn't have as much a problem with this many law schools if the ones on the lower end were honest with their applicants about what their prospects were. Many schools aren't--which would seem less likely to be the case if the existence of these institutions was truly merited.

I'm with 68. I went to Pierce and am in a biglaw job (along with most of my friends from school...that were in IP). NH totally sucks, but it wasn't too bad for only 3 years.

Plus, it doesn't suck worse than actually working for biglaw.

I get tired of hearing these arguments "top 10% at T3 is better than an average student at a top 10." I went to a top 10 and pretty much every student there was very smart and worked plenty hard. The top 10% of those were incredibly brilliant. I've also worked with the top 10% from T3. They are fine but would seem to be about average at a top 10 school. They are definitely not in the same category as the top 10% of a top 10 school.

My cousin said that heknew a guy a couple of states over that went to a little known law school but still got employed as a big lawyer. It happens, all right. It happens every day.

There should only be 100 law schools in the United States. Maybe 50.

Cheese n' crackers. Appropriately, the Texas House of Rep. approved the "creation of the University of North Texas Law School in Dallas" or UNTLSD. Keep churning 'em out, folks.

67 - I graduated from McGeorge and now practice at a V-10 firm. Frankly, I am shocked that it is ranked so low. I received an excellent legal education there, and still think the faculty is top notch. As one of many examples, Anthony Kennedy teaches Con Law at McGeorge's summer program in Saltzberg.

RESTATEMENT 90!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I go to a 4th tier school and I generally agree that paying full freight for anything less than first tier is not a very intelligent gamble. Attending a lower tier school can make sense if you are an evening student getting scholarship money, as well as if you plan on working in that region. I worked my ass off and have a biglaw job lined up, but this is as much due to my niche work experience as my grades. From my experience, only the top 5% had shots at biglaw and good grades alone weren't enough without relevant work experience, law review, etc.

There should not be a third-tier - these schools should be shuttered stat.

to 87 - YES!

(1) 80%-90% of T3 and T4 graduates wouldn't be duped into thinking that their $100k debt load is a worthwhile investment.

(2) Reducing the supply of lawyers would also force firms to make efficient use of their attorneys' time. Anything that a paralegal is capable of handling would go to a paralegal.

(3) Quality control wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. The AMA does this, the result being that there's only a small number of horrifically incompetent doctors. However, in the legal world, we have T4.

77 hit the nail on the head!

T3 and T4 schools themselves think that anyone outside the top 10% of their own school is completely useless from a placement standpoint.

I don't know where else I could find a bigger bunch of fucking jackasses. Law school teaches you nothing. Wake up and experience life you little bitches.

While I appreciate arguments to the contrary, this seems like nothing but good news for egg lovers.

95 - pretty much hit it on the head. little bitches

I can't stand the massive inferiority complex that T3 grads bring to firms -- noooobooody cares. if you got hired, you are qualified. be done with it.

83,

Nobody is saying that the top schools aren't safer bets, or that the numbers aren't heavily in their favor when it comes to biglaw, or that one shouldn't seriously weigh their options if they don't get into a top school. But it's simply not nearly as calamitous to go to a lower ranked school as the reality-detached readership of ATL make it out to be.

Yeah, your school's pedigree does help you get through the door when you're starting out and building a resume, but the fact of the matter is, you can get your experience often and early if you hustle, and you're strategic about setting up your career early. If you go to a 3rd tier and want to practice bankruptcy law, get your 1L and 2L internships in the Trustee's Office (that one's easy to get), do bankruptcy clinics, try for a clerkships, etc., eventually you'll have experience you need to find a group somewhere. Criminal law: get your interships in the USAOs (SLIP is very competitive, but the volunteer program is far less so), DAs, PDs, etc., do clinics, graduate and grab a job at a DA at graduation. Do three years, build a high conviction rate, and try your luck at getting into an USAO. And so on. Same with most practice areas. Find back doors. They're all over.

Be strategic and hustle. You CAN do these things from a 3rd tier. Eventually, you can lateral somewhere and find a home if you work hard enough at it, for long enough. Getting experience you need to make moves relatively early in your career (3-5 years in) can be done from a TTT. Maybe my personal bias, but government experience (it's really easy to lateral from one federal agency to another, and build your breadth of experience that way) is a great tool for leveraging your worth on the market. And you can work your way into the right networks early on in various agencies if you're smart about things during your time at law school. Even if it is a TTT.

As far as debt, with PSLF, and now IBR beginning this summer, debt does not need to be an albatross for 3rd tier grads who go into public service. Yes, again, it's not going to make up for a lack of biglaw salaries, but, most lawyers don't need a biglaw salary to lead happy, comfortable, and meaningful lives. That seems to be a difficult thought for many here to wrap their minds around.

All I'm saying is that, sure, the better the school, the better your odds at getting some dream job before/at graduation. But a lower ranked school isn't certain doom if you're strategic and you hustle. The arbitrary and made up 'odds' thrown around on ATL suggesting the likelihood of success for a lower ranked law school grad are not in touch with reality.

80 - Has seen too many Wendy's commercials. Must be the result of all that free time staff attorneys have.

89 - I'm a McGeorge student as well and the "justification" for the drop in rankings was the new US News formula. McGeorge had been hovering in the tier 2 for a while until US News calculated both part-time and full-time in its rankings. Because a number of evening students are statistically unimpressive, they bring down the rankings significantly.

That said, and I don't mean to be rude, but I'm almost positive that Justice Kennedy doesn't teach con law in Salzburg - he focuses on a Law and Literature seminar. When he did teach Con Law at McGeorge in the 80's/early 90's, he would fail every person who got below a B- on his exam. That would be approximately 1/3 of the class who took it with him, at least.

The legal education here is pretty good, but what makes a school really good is its administration and how it takes care of its students. I'm happy to have a decent midlaw SA position, especially not being in the Top 20%, but it's tough for students to find jobs when OCI only brings so many employers to campus. If you do in fact work for a V10, then why not come to your alma mater's OCI? I know for a fact the only Vault ranked firm who interviewed this past year was Orrick, and they only did a resume drop. I mean, it doesn't cost anything for employers to register for our OCI, and they get a free lunch/gift, etc...not a bad deal for selling kids dreams.

93 and 87 are right! Limit the number of lawyers! For Christ sake at least shut down the unaccredited lawyer mills. Here is another suggestion: The bar exam in most states is WAY TOO EASY. Make it harder. Anything better than a 20% pass rate, and the test is too easy.

102, I attended a third tier in CA, passed the bar on my first try when the pass rate was 38% (I took the February bar because I went part time because I had this really strange thing they called a job which allowed me to pay for school instead of borrowing money) and now work in Biglaw. Let's see JFK Jr. best me on that. Oh, by the way, I was in a strip club in LA with Darryl Hannah the night he dumped his plane into the drink.

102 your a moron. a tougher bar would still result in lots of people with loan debt and nowhere to go. instead of being unemployed becuase of the number of elegible candidates they would be unemployed becuase of an artificial control on lawyers.

to 104:

I think 102's point was that the number of lawyers should be reduced. Also, while your point is true in the short term (unemployed, debt burdened bar flunkers), in the long term the sham schools would have a hard time justifying their existence if all 2-3% of their graduates passed the bar.

I'm a bigger fan of capping total ABA-accredited enrollment at something like 25k students per year.

MAUD'DIB

MAUD'DIB

MAUD'DIB

I am a rising 3L at a T3 school in California. I am absolutely amazed at the comments that are posted here about the T3 schools and the education you can get at one. I have friends that are at top 10 and top 20 schools and I can hold my own against them any day. We know we aren’t going to go BigLaw and really not a lot of us do. And being regional in California isn’t a bad gig, even if you are at a boutique firm in LA or San Francisco, you can still do a good job for yourself.

The comments posted above are really what the problem is with the profession today. Get over your own egos and realize that we all play a part in the legal community. We don’t all have to go to Ivy Leagues or be in the top of everything to still be successful attorneys and make a difference in people’s lives.

I went to Cleveland State and have nearly completed an LLM at Georgetown where I have taken class with JDs. I am no more impressed by the JDs at Georgetown than I was with my classmates at Cleveland State. The top 20 percent of my class at Cleveland State was as talented as any JD I have met at Georgetown. Most of my friends in the top 20% ended up with jobs at medium to large law firms making good money and doing the type of work they wanted. The difference is that the bottom 80 percent of the class really had to hustle for a job, though most in 2007 found a job. My experience is that if you do well at a third or even fourth tier you can still get a good job, but if you do not then you are out of luck. I obtained a very coveted job out of law school at the SEC, where I work full time, and will have no problem entering BIGLAW after a few years (even without the LLM). Looking back on it I would go to the best school I could get into, but if you do well at a third or fourth tier you can still get a good job. Lastly, with respect to the education, the professors at Cleveland State were no less talented at teaching or knowledgable about the subject matter as those at Georgetown. The difference was that the Georgetown professors are academics who also do a lot of research and thus write books and law review articles. Hope this helps. Cleveland State Class of 2007, Georgettown LLM class of 2009.

McGeorge students/grads need to STFU. You were and always 3rd/4th tier trash. You got lucky and into the second tier, like UMKC (Missouri - KC) did, and then promptly fell back into the third tier. McGeorge is now where it belongs.

03 Third tier grad here.

What I hate is all the BS you hear when you are in school at a TTT. I always heard this crap, "in five years it won't matter what law school you went to." I graduated at the top of my class of this TTT, and worked most of my career at V-8 firm. Yet now I look for a job and many elitist firms are dinging me saying "We are only looking for Top 30 law school grads only." Even when it comes to sixth year associates.

I call 100% total BS on the drivel you hear when attending a TTT.

110 - why are you no longer with the V-8 firm? It's because you suck. Don't blame it on the school. It's you, really.

its hard to escape your credentials. really fucked up business.

110 -- I'm just now graduating from a 2nd tier school, and despite going to work at a top firm, am worried about this.

Given your years of experience, who do you think is to blame? Is it the partners being snobs, or is it just clients who don't know better and are afraid to have people from lower ranked schools handling their work?

I am really not enthused for the future...I should have transferred...

111-

110 here, the 03 third tier grad. I left the V8 firm because the V8 told me from the beginning I had NO shot at partner because of the law school I went to. So I bolted for a place that had better pship prospects.

112 - People say it's hard to escape your credentials, but when did what you actually did in your career not become a part of your credentials? If you have accolades from your career and V8 partners who can vouch for you, why the fuck are places like Quinn Emmanuel being bitches and saying they only want top grads when they should be saying they want people have had a great career.

113-

110 here. Of course the economy is a big problem. With so many laid off attys out there (I'm not one of them, I have a job, but want a better one), they want to consider the cream of the crop. Sadly these fucked up firms only how to do one first pass, it's the same they do for people who want to be summers: name of law school, then grades.

Overall places like Quinn and other V10 firms are bitches because they think clients care. They think they'll lose business to a peer firm because they don't have enough Columbia grads or something. It's fucking dumb because you would think all of these sweatshops would simply want the best slaves, whomever they may be, but this is the good ole boys club, of which John Quinn and his like are proud douchebag members.

to 114:

The reason where you went to school matters is because its easier to market your services to clients. Clients don't know one lawyer from the next. But when you tell them work is going to a T-14 grad, they're more at ease (without any real reason).

I'm in the IP biz, and its not so much what law school, but how advanced one's science degree is (patent prosecution only). Clients would rather have a Ph.D than a B.S even though it doesn't matter 99.9% of the time.

I am a 2000 graduate of a so-called third tier school and just made partner at a V50 firm. First, these rankings are bs. Second, it is true that no senior partner worth his/her salt gives a rat's ass what school you went to if you provide value to your clients and to your firm.

My favorite part of all this is that the tier 1 folks can't come up with a better way to make a living than selling their time in 6 minute increments. I was a tier three, big law litigator and it only took me five years to make enough money to get out and live off of my own business and actually enjoy my life. If you are a tier one law student and don't understand this post...just give it some time.

@ 109:

"McGeorge students/grads need to STFU. You were and always 3rd/4th tier trash. You got lucky and into the second tier, like UMKC (Missouri - KC) did, and then promptly fell back into the third tier. McGeorge is now where it belongs."

You clearly have some sociopathic tendencies if you can point out the rankings trends of a school like UMKC. It's also funny that you're even using the third tier/second tier dichotomy as if there were any meaningful difference.

117- Then you agree that the snobbish elitist firms are being fucking stupid because they refuse to even interview people who could really add value to their clients and the firm, right?

117 - An anecdote isn't data. Clearly the rankings matter at the outset. Just look at OCI schedules. After that I'd imagine is more about the individual than anything else. But getting that shot early is a lot easier with a T-14 degree.

TTT grad here - also junior partner at a peer firm.

Listen, if you've been through what I've been through, you'd know it's way more impressive to make it big as a TTT grad than a HYS grad.

And by the way, nothing gives me more satisfaction than abusing and overworking associates who graduated from these so-called elite schools.

117 here....

120 - right.

121 - agreed. I had to get into big law through the back door. But if you find a way in, and you're good, you can and will make partner.

"Clients don't know one lawyer from the next. But when you tell them work is going to a T-14 grad, they're more at ease (without any real reason)."

That's why there are magazines such as "Super Lawyers." If you are a named a Super Lawyer (look it up, it's a detailed process to name the cream of the crop) for the New York area, and dilweeds like John Quinn still don't want you because you went to a TTT and not NYU, there's a problems. Clients (in-house counsel) read Super Lawyers. They see who gives CLE's. They don't need their outside counsel to be filled with grads of top law school grads.

They need top lawyers, regardless of what fucking school they went to.

124 - Don't know much about how stuff works outside IP (only done IP at a botique). I know clients prefer their work be done by the Ph.Ds in our firm. I just assumed it worked the same way with law school pedigree in other practice areas.

Maybe they're worried that a TTT grad can't attract clients and eventually become a partner who can pull their weight? I have no idea.

125- You can't compare patent prosecution to other types of legal practice. Of course for prosecution, which requires specialized knowledge, you want people who know the most, have the most education.

For legal practice, you need lawyers. Good lawyers. Great lawyers. And guess what, there are great lawyers at TTT's.

126 - Sure. But if BigLaw Firm X is not willing to do a thorough hiring search/candidate review, they'll probably just pick the T-14 grad knowing that their probability of getting a good lawyer is higher than is they picked a TTT grad.

I know I am late to comment on this post, but I have to say it because no one else has yet: Howard is a MAJOR exception to this TTT thing. Like, huge, HUGE exception. Recruiting at Howard is incredible. Even my 1L year summer, multiple people got hired at firms, government, in-house, the NFL, etc.

As a 2009 grad, I can say that ALL of my friends are (so far, thanks economy) employed at biglaw firms in DC, NYC, Chicago, SF, Atlanta, Philly, or with government agencies, or in good public interest positions. And it's not just the black students, the non-black students (and there are a surprising amount of them) do extremely well. I know more than a handful who are at V10 firms now. And almost the entire top 10% of my class is clerking 2009-10.

Also, tuition is only just now up to the low $20s, and if you are in the top half of your class after 1L year you automatically get a scholarship. Ditto for after 2L year. And you can easily get grant money. I have less than $80k in student loans. And there are a decent number of Howard grad partners in law firms.

So...yeah, while TTT is generally bad, if you can get into the top 1/3 of your class at Howard, have a good personality, are on Journal or Moot Court/Trial Ad or in student government, you're gonna be just fine.

And we know how to party.

Caveat: You'll have to deal with the rudest, most unorganized administrative staff known to modern man. It's really astonishing.

scalia is a piece of shit....that guy came to stanford as a professor and nobody liked the guy because he was an arrogant pile of crap and they never invited him back again. And with all this ranking shit....can all of you just shut the fuck up about Top Tier Toilet and Third Tier Toilets. The whole legal profession is one big toilet because you douche bags spend all your time worrying about rankings....SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY AND GET OVER IT

It really is possible to do great things at a T3, or even at a T4 -- especially if you're into public interest. I'm on law review, a national law journal, and landed a job at Harvard this summer. I really don't have an issue with how my education is going. I'm doing relatively well for myself considering the supposed "low quality" of my education. I'm perfectly happy.

people that go to higher ranking law schools just want to suck their own dicks.

Akron U Law School is advertising a job opening for a Director of Academic Success Programs. Essentially this person runs the "remedial law school" program. The goal is to help academically unqualified students with things like how to take a test and reading comprehension. This is astounding to me.

A higher ranked school is a hedge. As an HYS alum who works with Tier 3 grads, a lot of whom are superior intellectually and as technical lawyers to T14 grads at the same place, I can say the biggest difference between the Tier 3 grads and myself is I had a more relaxed law school experience because I didn't have to be top 10% to get interviews, much less a job. Good grades/good personality will get you far no matter what school you attend, but the better the school, the more wiggle room you have - a nice feeling going into a Property final

Last week I graduated from a third-tier law school. I received an affordable and thorough education, as well as a Biglaw offer. It worked out great for me.

jeez, i can't believe so many people from so called tier 1 schools are basing their self worth (and simultaneously berating your current/future colleagues in the legal profession) on the freaking US News rankings...seriously people??? Too bad your cocks aren't as big as your egos

48- i'm interested in hearing what other factors your office considers in hiring determinations.

MarqueTTTe University Law School - continuing its proud tradition of poorly educating students. Eliminate the rule that does not require MarqueTTTe and University of Wisconsin law students to take the bar exam and MarqueTTTe will shut down.

Your law school ranking only matters for certain types of practice. If you are a self-confident individual that does not care to work in a prestige-oriented sector like Biglaw, then US News rankings, Vault rankings, and sites like ATL should be of little relevance to you. If, on the other hand, you want to work in Biglaw, then rankings are important whether you like it or not. I went to a regional T-2 school and worked my ass off to get a Biglaw job. I do not recommend this route. It is much easier to work your ass off as an undergrad and on the LSAT then to go the long way around, hoping to lateral and network into Biglaw.

Rankings have some true relevance, but most of it is perceived. Any public defender can tell you that his/her clients demand Harvard lawyers.

This is the business we have chosen.

135, since I have a huge cock, I'll just look at this objectively. Depending on what kind of job you want, going to a third tier school is a gamble. Doesn't say anything about self-worth. Says more about the other posters who only care about being at a top firm and have nothing else going on in their life.

But it's the reality. You can make it to a good firm, but you better do DAMN well. Or be really lucky.

@31: You can eat a sow's ear. You can't eat a silk purse. In the New Economy, that is important.

Howard being put in the third tier is racist.

136,

Aside from the obvious, like a grasp of relevant substantive law (during my interviews, I was given oral criminal law hypos to answer on the spot); a federal clerkship (especially a district court clerkship); whether you've had anything published; and commitment to public service, a good amount of litigation experience is a bonus. We interview and sometimes hire biglaw attorneys with no crim law experience, but who come from a litigation group at their old firm. If you were at a firm long enough to get into a securities group, or other financial regulatory-type group, that would be good, too. (Sorry, I don't know much about law firm groups, how long it takes an associate to specialize, etc., as I've never practiced in the private sector.)

If you have experience in another federal agency, that's a huge bonus. We love intra-government laterals. For example, if you come from the EPA, and show a desire to prosecute environmental crimes, that would play well in the interview process. A lot of federal agencies hire right out of law school, so if you do a few years in one of them, gain good specialized knowledge of an area of law that is relevant to one of our units (economic crimes has a lot of units with agency laterals who learned their practice area somewhere else in the government), and apply to an AUSO, that would be a feather in your cap.

If you do a few years in a DA's office (what I did) that could be good or neutral, depending on your conviction rate, how far you advanced, whether you were in a specialized unit that relates to the type of law the USA prosecutes (e.g., if you were in a fraud unit that would be good; if you were in a sex crimes unit, not so much), and whether you can sell yourself as being capable of adjusting to the slow paced investigatory nature of federal prosecution, versus the rip-and-run style of state level prosecution. I've long thought that a good way to prove yourself on the latter quality (which can be important, depending on what office you're applying to) would be to prosecute in a state AG's office, in a specialized prosecution group of some kind (like a state's OC strike force, or something), but there's nobody in my office with state AG experience at the moment. I believe in my theory, though.

In the end, experience is what we care most about. Harvard degrees are nice (and we have those, too -- and surprise, surprise, they're generally nice, congenial people who don't look down on us lowly 2nd and 3rd tier J.D.s), but if you've been in practice for 3, 5, 7 years, you'd better have proven yourself beyond what you did in law school in your early 20s, by then.

-48

You "Top Tier" people are jokes. You're parents are likely rich and spoiled the shit out of you during your childhood. You grew up in cookie cutter neighborhoods and never had a care in the world. Sure, you have academic pedigree but that's it. Most of you were absolute losers growing up and likely enjoyed no success outside the classroom. That being said, I don't have the academic "credentials" that you do but I did enjoy my life growing up. I played sports and made friends without caring whether I was locking up that A+ in Western Civilization. When I decided it was time to grow up, I went to a "TTT" law school, worked my butt off, finished in the top ten and now enjoy a nice biglaw salary. If I had to do it all over again I would 100% choose my route over yours. Pricks.

The USNWR ranked my balls as number one over Yale.

apparently the poster cannot read but hofstra is listed as tier 1 at 100...douchesssss

My advice to T3 students: Ignore the laughing jackals on this site. Most of them are the middle-of-the-pack students who are suddenly realizing that, in this economy, employers want more than a sheepskin from a big name school. Concentrate on your grades and developing marketable skills that will make you an asset to any firm. I'm a T3 working in biglaw. I got here because I was in the top 10% of my class, because I networked effectively, and because my resume showed someone with life experience and skills that set me apart from other job seekers. Best of luck and enjoy the ride.

I went to Hofstra and now work at Katten. Anything is possible. Do not listen to the naysayers.

145- Tier 1 ends at 50, tier 2 begins at 51, and ends at 100.

Has anyone mentioned that top tier people are jokes and used to get beat up in high school by anyone with an inkling of popularity. I just want to make sure that this doesn't go unmentioned

Howard rejected my application and I am white. Therefore, Howard is racist.

The Flying Tomato

As a TTT to T6 transfer I can attest to the sad reality that most students at these schools have NO IDEA what they are getting themselves into. A large majority of them truly believe that all lawyers drive fancy cars and have houses in the Hamptons. Most are clueless and in my experience more pretentious than people I graduated with.

Notice a lot of these law schools are in places where they really have no competing law schools. I am sure their grads do fine in their home city or state depending on where specifically.

no body gives a rat's ass about the TTThird TTTier Schools. The open thread should have stopped after the T14.

"Given that I graduated with $250,000 in debt and have no job, I'd rather go to a hell world like Salusa Secundus than rub my elbows with you whining Third-tier associates."

Dune reference? Can we fall any further?

third tier grad, first year associate, and i have a larger spring bonus than sullivan & cromwell.

153,

150+ posts in a thread about TTTs, and yet "no body [sic] gives a rat's ass about" them. Thank you for proving (on at least two separate levels, in a single post) why top tier grads cannot be assumed to be all that smart by virtue of their degrees alone.

What is wrong with going to Widener? I work at Venable and live a very comfortable existence.

It is possible to get a job as a clerk on the SCOTUS from a third tier school. In fact, a student from Creighton University School of Law clerked for Thomas...

It is possible to get a job as a clerk on the SCOTUS from a third tier school. In fact, a student from Creighton University School of Law clerked for Thomas...

It is possible to get a job as a clerk on the SCOTUS from a third tier school. In fact, a student from Creighton University School of Law clerked for Thomas...

T3 Grad here. I fully expected that I would be passed over for jobs in BIGLAW despite my top 10 status. No worries. I didn't pay a nickle for law school and I am done working most days by 3. I also know where all the hot moms you BIGLAW drones are married to hang out.

Look into your childrens eyes this weekend when you finally get to see them. When you get beyond the awkwardness of your exchange with these little strangers take another real close look...those aren't Grandpa Saul's eyes...

Cheers!

The BigLaw culture is imploding. Everyone who visits this site knows this. Yet People are still bragging about how their school places graduates in BigLaw firms. Idiots. Make sure the mug with your alma mater logo sits prominently atop the pile of junk in the box you use to clear out your cubicle when you are laid off.

When you come begging for a job at a mid-sized firm, the senior associate who went to a lesser school will certainly realize the superiority of your education. I’m sure of it.

I can say in complete honesty, our firm has no graduates of these schools (most of which I had no idea were in existence). I think we had one Depaul graduate, but he was the only Tier 3 graduate I knew of, and he was let go in January.

Also, it's easy to lose sight of this, as it appears that "the law" is everything and prestige is everything. But there's a BIG world of employment out there, beyond law firms, where people wouldn't know the difference between law firms that advertise on the subway and S&C. And you should see their eyes gloss over when you try to describe what a "Skadden" or a "Cravath" is. No one who isn't a lawyer gives a shit.

I went to a 2nd Tier law school, graduated solidly in the middle of my class, and now I have an awesome job in the entertainment industry making deals, getting interesting/fun projects off the ground, launching new projects, all while earning more than enough money to make me happy (and the 10-5 hours, 5 days a week, half-friday in the summer doesn't hurt either). In the end, I found my dream job that was even better than I could have imagined. And if I could do it, anyone can do it.

Just try not to let the phoney douchebags who are too involved with the "prestige" drag you down into their world. Sure, they're really good at make other people feel crummy, but they're defined by where they work. They're the sad, little (sometimes not so little) people who made fun of you because you didn't memorize Marbury v. Madison by the second day of law school, and, like everyone else in their life, you also shouldn't give a rats ass what they think.

I am graduating from a third tier school this year and will be going to a top 10 BigLaw firm. I received 7 offers from BigLaw firms -- all in the Vault top 20 -- and literally had my choice of where I wanted to go. I don't think I would have the same kind of flexibility if I was just an average student at a top school. I felt bad for other summer associates at my firm who had no choice but had to go to certain firms because of their schools lottery system -- I had my choice.

Cravath hires TTT grads to wipe the asses of the associates from T-14 schools. This was made into policy by Evan Chesler who has a bevy of TTT grads and Skadden associates wipe his ass daily.

163 -

YOU SAY YOU A GANGSTA, BUT YOU NEVA POP NUTTIN'.

WE SAY YOU A WANKSTA, AND YOU NEEDA STOP FRONTIN'.

YOU GO TO DA DEALASHIP, BUT YOU NEVA COP NUTTIN'.

YOU BEEN HUSTLIN' A LONG TIME AND YOU AIN'T GOT NUTTIN'!

122

Same boat, same sentiment. Nice.

This discussion is so pointless. I graduated in the top 10% of a T-3 school. Made partner at a major firm. At said firm, former clerks for Scalia and Kennedy worked for me. They knew jack shit about the practical aspects of practicing law. They were basically monkeys who wrote good briefs and helped me look good in arguing cases. I then left said major firm for a boutique, taking much of my work with me. Now the Scalia and Kennedy clerks have nothing to do and are at risk of being fired. Once they are fired, I will hire them for 50% of what they are currently making. Judge for yourselves whose career is more successful.

There should only be 1 law school, Harvard, and 1 law firm, Skadden, for this country. All other firms and schools should close. We do not need them.

YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS

Skadden Secure

The TTTs won this thread, hands down.

TOP TIER BLOWS....HOORAYYY WIDENER

If you have your head screwed on straight and know what you want to do with your life by the age of 21-22 then you can go to any school you want and have a successful career. Due to the cost of most TTT schools however, there is little reason to go to one unless to you get a good scholarship or quite frankly, just didn’t get a good LSAT score. The absorbent costs of law school would be make some life choices difficult—particularly if you are attending when you are older, married, or have other obligations, but cutting costs in other areas can help launch your career in a lower paying job for the fist 3-4 years. The real scam being conducted by these schools is that they promote the idea that any listless liberal arts undergrad can walk into law school, muddle through, and earn 100K plus right out the door. That is why the majority should be shut down.

Going to one of these schools with the hopes of becoming a biglaw attorney is like playing Mega Millions with the hopes of becoming rich. It can obviously happen but claiming the discussion is pointless is not logical.

BigLaw is finished. Jobs are going at small- and medium-sized firms, who are much less impressed with the oversized egos that come with top tier law school grads. I went to a third tier school, clerked for a federal judge, had an offer from Skadden after a summer job, worked at a big firm, had a fun government job, travelled the world and now teach at law schools in Europe and the USA. Work hard, be very good, and f*** Scalia and other snooty top-tier grads with their heads up their asses. Their layoff notices are on the way.

174,

Well, hyperbole like yours certainly doesn't add much to the discussion. Going to a TTT with aspirations of going biglaw is NOT like playing the lottery.

I really hope I don't need to explain why that is so.

What's with all the top tier grads making such poorly thought out arguments, in this thread?

Even though I had a 3.99 undergrad GPA, I fucked up the LSAT. Instead of retaking the damn thing, I went to a third tier school. I made law review, graduated in the top 20%, and got hired by a mid-size litigation firm. And now I routinely kick the living shit out of little bitches with rich parents who went to the first tier schools. I win. And my bank account proves it. These rankings are total B.S. Nobody gives a flying fuck once you graduate. All that matters is winning and pleasing your clients.

There is nothing wrong with Widener.

Even though I had a 3.99 undergrad GPA, I fucked up the LSAT. Instead of retaking the damn thing, I went to a third tier school. I made law review, graduated in the top 20%, and got hired by a mid-size litigation firm. And now I routinely kick the living shit out of little bitches with rich parents who went to the first tier schools. I win. And my bank account proves it. These rankings are total B.S. Nobody gives a flying fuck once you graduate. All that matters is winning and pleasing your clients.

I think choosing a law school based on a school's rank is a terrible idea. Choose one that fits your needs and what you want.

I chose Syracuse because it has good ties to Washington, DC (the University has the Greenberg Building in Adams Morgan), the school has a great national security law program (the faculty has a great reputation in the field) and Syracuse University is a great research university, is generally well-known, and was close to home.

I gave up a spot at a tier 1 school for a tier 3 and I'm not sorry I did. Besides, who doesn't love Joe Biden?

176- I would love to hear your thought out argument here. In the good days you needed to be top 10% on law review with decent interviewing skills in order to land biglaw. In this economy, that number easily shrinks to 5% and possibly lower. Now sure there may be some students at these schools where daddy is rich and has connections at some firms but for the rest of the student body 5 out of 100 is not good odds. Biglaw is not is shrinking and the first people to be closed out of opportunities will be students at these schools. Sorry about your tiny pink degree bro.

I think the ATL editors are biased against tier 3 schools. It's kind of shameful and is a reflection of how shallow they and this blog truly are.

Given their biases, it's fitting they created a tabloid that focuses on gossip and the superficial.

180,

You chose a tier three law school in upstate new york because you want to work in DC? Syracuse is a good university, but I don't get it.

I pounded a Cardozo chick and a Widener chick in the ass once, all in the same night.

GW prestige

I say we do an all-Widener thread on how we dominate the shitterds from Tier 1 in the courtroom! On a side note, ever notice how Tier 1's only hang out with other Tier 1's?? It's painstakingly obvious how hard it is for you twerps to hold conversations outside of your ivory towers.

I say we do an all-Widener thread on how we dominate the shitterds from Tier 1 in the courtroom! On a side note, ever notice how Tier 1's only hang out with other Tier 1's?? It's painstakingly obvious how hard it is for you twerps to hold conversations outside of your ivory towers.

Skadden is better than all of you.

These schools are open-enrollment? Correct?

I went to Dickinson which, at the time was a tier three school. I admit that they don't place a substantial number of students in Biglaw firms and Federal clerkships, but there is a whole wacky world of legal practice out there beyond those limited areas.

They do a good job of placing students in local clerkships, state government and mid-sized regional firms. Interestingly, those are the sectors that have not been hit by the layoffs yet.

I graduated law school with $100,000+ in debt. I interned in state agencies through law school and I clerked for a PA appellate judge for two years after graduation. I now work for a 20 attorney firm and (even with two kids and a wife that is a stay at home mom) I live comfortably and make my student loan payment every month.

Many of my classmates are solos and are also doing well. Where I went to school is essentially irrelevant outside of small talk.

While I went to a first-tier law school and work in a large law firm, I would never mock anyone that went to a school ranked lower than mine. I've seen plenty of so-called "top" graduates get their asses kicked in the coutroom by FOURTH tier lawyers. Of course, if your "lawyering" experience is limited to your office 12+ hours per day, you might not know anything about that, so...

I chose TTTTWidener over Yale.

Tarbosh's comments have been comical thus far...

"These schools are open-enrollment, correct?"

"In say in complete honesty, our firm has no graduates of these schools (most of which I had no idea were in existence)."

I hope that really is a picture of you. You look like a cholo on easter.

I went to a T2 school - and have the whole federal clerkship, big firm thing too...high GPA, law review, etc.

I know the same applies to a select few from T3 and T4 too. But a handful of success stories do not make this a wise investment for the other 80-90 percent. If you know what you're getting into, minimize your debt (go part time?), or have parents that can fund it - great, go to school wherever. But law schools selling the notion that simply getting your J.D. is the path to riches is misleading at best. And the intellectual aspect - let me know the next time intriguing issues of Constitutional Law come up in day-to-day practice.

Where is Widener?

As several other people point out, the numerous "shut down all 3rd and 4th tier" comments are a bit overblown. I suspect that the most vocal of these advocates thought that their 1st or 2nd tier JD would compensate for their poor law school performance and lack of legal experience, only to find themselves struggling alongside everyone else in the job market.

I paid full tuition to attend a 3rd tier school, turning down a full ride to two 4th tier schools. I considered transferring to a T-40 after first year, but ultimately chose to stay. I am currently enjoying a federal clerkship in a major U.S. city while about 1/4th of my friends work for mid to large firms, 1/4th work for small firms or government agencies, 1/4th perform boring contract work that pays the bills, and 1/4th fade in and out of unemployment.

I think one of the biggest differences between the top tiered schools and 3rd and 4th tiered ones is that, if you go to a lower teir school, you MUST supplement your classroom experience with clinics, internships, part time legal jobs, or trial competitions. Students at these lower teired schools win lots of the national competitions and can gain great experience working interning or working part-time while their HLS peers simply go to class and go home during the academic year. Also, while you don't need to be top 10 in your class from a lower teir school, anyone not in the top 30% will face a steep uphill battle.

Expecially when it comes to litigation, students from lower teir schools don't rest on their lorels the way 1st teir students often do. Sure, I'd rather take a HLS grad who busts his ass and gets tons of experience and good grades, but not many of those students exist. Instead, I read incoherant briefs from BigLaw pro-bono associates who are completely baffled by Section 1983. The achilles heel of students from top-teir schools is that they think their class attendance alone will make them qualified for every job. Use that to your advantage.

181,

This economy isn't going to last forever, obviously, and you did not mention the economy in your original post. Even still, do the math. How many TTT graduates a year, minus the number of those graduates that land biglaw jobs right out of the gate, plus the number that lateral in eventually, from that same class. Do you honestly think the odds there are as extreme as a lottery? Like I said, hyperbole.

-176

Delaware

Go to a TTT or TTTT if you so choose, but whatever you do, don't pay sticker price.

As angry as TTT grads get at the elitism in ATL comments, the fact remains that elitism is prevalent in the legal world. You will meet many people who don't give a rat's ass the ranking of your school, but you will also meet many people who immediately doubt your intelligence upon hearing you graduated from a TTT.

That is life. Prove them wrong, if you can. Some of you will be able to do so, others will not.

Southwestern "3 Tier grad here - was at Skadden for 6 years, now at another "biglaw" firm. Don't tell me my degree and work was for nothing.

As a legal recruiter who has been working with top firms and in-house clients for years (having been a top 2 law-school grad, big firm associate and in-house counsel before that), I have to say that Third Tier Schools really shouldn't even exist by and large except as entities who openly proclaim that they're producing solo practitioners/small-town lawyer & low-level public lawyer types, which is fine for people who want that lifestyle, and it would also allow those schools to better prepare those folks in the subjects that solo practitioners do most commonly face, but folks should just not go to a Third Tier School assuming that it will reasonably launch them into a big-time career. My clients invariably tell me that don't even want to see resumes from Third Tier graduates, period (no matter how well they did).

Don't go to a TTT. Watch out for Manbearpig. This is so super serial.

200 - You must suck at your job then. Take a look at the Vault 100 firms. Every single one of them has TTT'ers working at them.

199 - Its amusing how after 199 comments, no one seems to be recognizing what either party is saying. TTT grads counter (fairly accurate) statements on the BigLaw prospects of the average TTT graduate with the rare counterexample.

No one is saying everyone in TTT is a moron or that they wasted their money. They (Snobby McSnobbersons) are saying that at least a majority of TTT grads will never sniff the inside of a BigLaw firm (assuming that's what they even want). Looking through the directory of ANY BigLaw firm will show this to be true.

Yes, it sucks when douches are right.

Why do people keep bashing Fordham? If what you want to do is practice in NYC, there are few schools with better placement records. Not everybody wants to work in NYC, but it is the largest legal market and so going to a feeder school makes some sense.

202 - Why is this a hard point to get? Just because its possible for a TTT grad to make it into BigLaw doesn't make it probable.

Go to Skadden's attorney search and look at the number of Harvard grads vs. the number of grads. TTT grads have long or next to impossible odds of getting into BigLaw.

203- you are making too much sense. Please stop posting.

- not 203

204-
I see you are talking about Fordham. I think you may be confused, as I don't believe the open forum on Tier 4 schools is out yet. You should wait until they open the forum for Tier 4 before posting information about this school.

37 - You are dead on. Another good example is Texas Tech. DAs offices hire heavily from there, there are plenty of top students who go to Big Law Texas offices every year, and just about any lawyer in Texas will tell you it turns out great lawyers. [Insert jokes about Texas here] It only gets hard when you leave the region. A lot of people on the East Coast say "Isn't Tech the school with that weird football coach? I didn't know they had a law school."

I would hazard a guess that the non-fake commenters who bash low ranked schools and their grads are law students and 0Ls that haven't really gotten a realistic sense of the legal profession yet. Or you are someone like 200 who has tunnel vision.

My experience at my school, 4th tier, was that you can't be lazy or unmotivated and still succeed. At a high ranked school, like T10, you can probably just follow the usual track and not try very hard to land your first gig. Spam recruiters with resumes, go to OCI, and you will probably get some law firm job somewhere. Lower ranked, you need to try a little harder, you probably won't land 160K after graduation, and you need to get some good experience on your resume as a law student, and concentrate on classes that will make you competitive on the job market such as trial advocacy and litigation courses, or some other niche course.

As far as I am concerned, if you are going to law school in order to practice and get into anything but BigLaw (other than money why would you want to do that? Is the legal work in any way compelling??) lower ranked schools are fine if you have the motivation.

183...yes, i did. Syracuse has good ties to Washington D.C. If you do research on schools beyond US News & World report you'll find out some interesting things.

Tell me of your homeworld, Tarbosh.

Is the air infused with crack?

183... a lot of Syracuse grads go on to federal gov't, firm and nonprofit jobs in Washington, D.C. and the school has an OCI in August in DC.

22 -

No one cares about how hard you work at your TTT law school. Being on top there is like being the smartest kid with down syndrome.

And for your buddies who could 'wax the floor' with a t14 law student in criminal court - good for them (pat on the head)...good for them. Leave the more complex litigation, including white collar crime (which is a little different than the trals involving dime bags of weed and purse snatchers that your fellow TTT students defend), to those who can actually comprehend the subject matter (i.e. the lowely t14 students you are attempting to trash).

And as a side note, I don't care how good you TTT students are in court. I still wouldn't leave my wallet laying around with a bunch of you in the room.

Does Waco Christian University of Texas Law School in Galveston place well in Biglaw?

19 -- who said "Scalia might be a little bitter - he applied for a professorship at WCL about 30 years ago. He didn't get the job." -- is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

One of my WCL Profs told me the story. Most of the faculty thought his theories completely wrong. Then again, most of the faculty at WCL is very liberal.

HOFSTRA !! HOFSTRA!!! HOFSTRA!!!!

All law schools are a scam, regardless of US News Rank. T1 schools don't lie about job prospects any less than TTT. The myths that "all lawyers make decent/good/great money" and "you can do anything with a law degree" and "you can only go to law school with a BA in comparative literature" are pervasive in every facet of white, middle-class college-educated families.

To TTT students: Don't worry, we were just as stupid as you were in making this decision.

-Disenchanted 1L at a T20 school, top half of the class, with no chance in hell at getting a job in BigLaw or ever paying off this debt.

195--it's "laurels"

We need TTT schools because every family needs THAT attorney. When aunt Doris burns her thigh trying to use a curling iron as a sex toy, and says she wants to sue Wal-Mart for not giving her a warning lable about not using it this way unless unplugged, we can't have our Big Law attorneys wasting their time. No, we need TTT attorneys to sit aunt Doris down and tell her, "Um . . . yeah . . . sounds like a winner!"

I think people on this site should in good faith identify how long they have been out of law school because the information posted is factually inaccurate or applies regionally and many opinions are worthless. (I do enjoy the sarcasm). For example I live / work in the DC region and no question most of the people at the firms are from elite schools. However, there area many Tier III government attorneys making 100k+ working 40 hours a week w/ some able to telecommute. I am not trying to paint a rosy picture as there are also many Third Tier grads doing contract attorney work ($35 hr). No way is it worth amassing 150k to be a career contract attorney. On the other hand the average college grad w/ a BA is not making $35hr. Not to pick on GULC but I met quite a few GULC grads while I was doing contract work. I have also met attorneys from American, Howard, UDC, Catholic, Mason, and Maryland etc. I have also seen excellent litigators from many schools at the various area court houses, no school has that market cornered. Do your research do not go to law school to make Mom and Dad happy or because it impresses the uninformed masses. Know your personal goals and know the job market you will enter. If you go to Harvard all you have to do is graduate and pass the bar a firm job is a given. Tier III, start networking as a 1L in case you miss the top 10% / Moot Court / Journal.

I wonder when Wal-Mart is going to start legal services? That will be a great opportunity for the graduates of Fordham and the other Tier 3 and 4 schools.

Emory shouldn't be in a discussion about the TTTs, but somehow it keeps magically appearing.

I'll be the first to admit that there is a discernible difference between SOME Top Tier and SOME TTT students -- but not all.

To call someone "stupid" or "less intelligent" would mean that there is one clear cut set of rules for what it means to be "smart" or "intelligent" in the first place.

People bring many different things to the table. Someone at Harvard may not be as outgoing and likable as someone at any Tier 3. So, the Harvard grad has his/her strengths as does the Tier 3 grad. I have met some Harvard grads who write incredibly well, research amazing and always produce quality work. But, I have met many many Tier 3 grads who write well enough, research just as well, but add creative outside the box ideas to most of our discussions. Does that make them "smarter" or a "better attorney?" -- I dont know, I just know both lawyers have very nice careers and it is quite a slap in the face to that 3rd Tier Student (who is now a partner at a BigLaw DC firm and graduated only 7 or 8 years ago) to say that he/she is "not smart"

Now, I fully agree that there are people in completely different categories at Harvard/Yale/etc. But, it is very obvious that these people go on to have scholarly careers and never "practice law" -- so where the difference between the students "intelligence" is noticeable...its not worth using as a "pro" for when it comes to BigLaw. These people have no desire to be in BigLaw and should not be compared to any other law student -- including the students in their own school.

As for me? I am a BigLaw Partner (4 years now). I went to a Tier 3 East Coast school. You can call me stupid, but I promise you that I handle matters much more prominent than some of my colleagues -- and I've worked along side numerous first year lawyers from a wide range of the rankings. It is either you are "able" or "unable" -- maybe you have something the other person doesnt have, but either way, if you are both able, then you are both able regardless of where you went to school.

218- Sorry, I was fading in and out of consciousness when I wrote earlier and didn't notice a few typos. That Proskauer brief sure was enlightening though. I felt so honored just to get the chance to read a brief written by a T-5 graduate. He must feel so proud of his ability to graduate and forever be able to impress people at cocktail parties by simply invoking the name of his alma mater.

- 195

All the third tier bashing is so juvenile and unsophisticated. I am at a third tier school after scoring almost perfectly on the LSAT with a decent undergrad GPA. Many of us are (SHOCKER) just as intelligent as those of you at the top schools.
It is just that we have this little problem. We are real people with real lives. Sometimes intelligent people have a hard time "towing the line". Real lives don't lend themselves very well to the kind of cookie cutter background that would allow you to attend a certain school just because of prestige.
I for one am a single parent, and opted to stay in my hometown and attend the third tier instead of Columbia (which waved my application fee because of LSAT scores). So please take a moment to get your head out of your ass, and quit pretending to be better than everyone else. I learn independently, and will be the same lawyer coming out of the third tier that I would have been out of Columbia.

223 - You're missing the point of this thread. Its a chance for mediocre T1 students/grads to feel better about their lack of professional accomplishment by ridiculing those who didn't 'accomplish' what they did - getting into T1 school.

You get the same thing when the cellar dwellers ridicule/look down on transfers. Those of us at the top could care less.

I"d rather be a slave boy at Giedi Prime for the Harkonnens than be a graduate of a third-tier school.

I use to go to Western State University College of Law.

I was a 3L and my GPA dropped below 2.0. They tried to give me academic probation, but I decided to drop out.

A year later, I met a graduate from there. He was one of the top students (distinguished honor roll, witkins, law review, etc.). It turns out that he ended up getting a job that only paid $40,000!!

He couldn't get a job with the big firms because they took students from the well known schools. I dodged a bullet!

225,

No one is saying that there aren't exceptional people at even the lowest ranked schools. There are, and these people are almost always successful in spite of the name on their diploma. B

ut you don't have to have a 180 on the LSAT to realize that a huge percentage of TTT grads end up with a ton of debt and limited opportunities. For most of these people, law school was an extremely expensive mistake. I think that's the biggest theme here.

229,
Actually I am saying there aren't exceptional people at even the lowest ranked schools. I'm with Scalia...there just are not. I will concede there can be above average people at these schools, however, they are most certainly not exceptional.

HOFSTRA!! HOFSTRA!! HOFSTRA!!!!

Whoever keeps on writing about Western State University College is wrong!

I go there and it's not even ranked.

That school drops out nearly half of its students each year. Half of 1L's get dropped after the first, half of 2L's get dropped after the second year, etc.

A class came in for their 1L year with over 130+ students. In their supposed 3L year, there were only 50 students.

These low schools are only in it for the money. That school has a system that doesn't graduate students if they don't get enough 2.4 GPA for like 10 classes by their 3rd year. What's worst is they don't grade on a curve.

Don't waste your money. Learn from me. Go to an unaccredited school. You'll still be able to take the bar, spend WAY less money and get the same job as any 3-4 tier graduate (small firms).

Uhhhh do not go to an unaccredited school, it doesn't save you much money, you run more risk of it going under, (like New College), you can't take any other state's bar exam besides CA, and a lot of places don't want people from unaccredited schools. Any Federal Job, for instance.

229,

Law school is an extremely expensive mistake for almost everyone, at almost any school. The unbearable debt and arbitrary/unhealthy legal recruitment market is lousy for every law grad, including for the suckers like me at "elite" schools who were told our whole lives that smart people can make money and save the world by becoming lawyers. 225 is right - her accomplishment is exactly the same as the self-aggrandizing Columbia brats: hardly anything special.

The REAL purpose of this thread is to mask a much larger lie; that higher education is a reliable career move, and that people's fortune in the job market is somehow a factor of going to school and trying to advance oneself through professional school.

228: "I was a 3L and my GPA dropped below 2.0. They tried to give me academic probation, but I decided to drop out... I dodged a bullet!"

You dropped out your 3L year... So in other words, you dodged a $50,000 bullet, just to get hit in the face with a $100,000 shotgun shell.

You win!

quinn remains.

208. Dude you have to be kidding.

Obviously you attend the school.
Obviously you have trolled ATL for that once time Tech is relevant to a conversation.

Maybe...MAYBE your law review will get offers from firms paying market. The rest of you dumb sheets are sniffing the toilet.

Tech is in a tight battle with South Texas College of Law as the 5th best law school.

The ONLY reason you would go to Tech is if you couldn't get into UT or UH, couldn't afford Baylor or SMU and got zero money from South Texas.

213 = douchebag

237: You're way off about Tech. I don't go to Tech, but I do know a lot about the school and, rankings aside, I believe it is a better law school than UH and SMU. SMU has a leg up on Tech only because of its location because many Tech students look to go to Dallas after graduation. SMU is absolutely the worst law school to go to in TX due to its outrageous tuition rates and sub par placement at top firms. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Also, if the standard is BigLaw offers then you all are "dumb sheets" because those are about as reliable as AIG stock right now.
Interesting how you idiots make BigLaw jobs the gold standard even while the blood bath at all of these firms continues. Nevermind the "dumb sheets" are keeping their $100k jobs while the BigLaw associates lose their $160k jobs. Hold on to that T14 degree for dear life as you scour the classifieds.

Find a new measuring stick other than BigLaw jobs.

230,

Nah, there are. My aunt went to law school in her mid forties. She had an LSAT score in the 170s and excellent undergrad grades as well as a successful first career. She probably could have gone anywhere, but she went to the local TTT, because she didn't want to uproot her family for 3 years. Long story short, she finished first or second in her class and is now a partner. These senarios aren't common, but their not unheard of either.

Hofstra 3L here,

You can do a lot with a non T14 degree. I, for one, have done real well at HLS, was an editor of the HLR, and got a good post-graduate jobs at one of the bigger insurance defense shops in Hepstead. Now I'm not saying HLS is the best school in the country, but we sure can hang with any others in the NY crew. And I'm happy to have such a secure job.

GO JETS!

FACT: I nearly pissed myself from laughing so hard after reading 80. You mean they actually let you manage a doc review?!?. ...and that's different from doing a doc review how? I'm sure in the seven hours a day you aren't "managing" you're checking for privilege just like the other contract aTTTorneys.

239: Im not way off about Tech.
100K jobs from Tech? Again...way off. That is not the average for Tech grads. I personally have friends who went to Tech that did not even get close to making that kind of money. Hell, many aren't making any money. Besides, Its not about the money. Its about the quality of the work, and Tech grads tend to be asbsent from quality work. Being the hero of state court litigation trying fraud cases does not make you a great lawyer.

Measuring stick?
Im merely using the standard in which 208 provided.

"there are plenty of top students who go to Big Law Texas offices every year"

208 said this like it was a validation of some sheet law school out in West Texas.

A student would be a fool not to attend UH over Tech. SMU has great placement compared to its' USNews ranking.

Please accept that Tech is in a battle for 5th best law school in Texas, and would be the first (or second) place choice for the losers of the law school admission game.

(And I hope you realize this is a schtick)

I graduated from a state college with the highest GPA in my department (Philosophy). I applied to three law schools: Virginia; Chicago; and a third tier. I was rejected at Virginia, waitlisted at Chicago and accepted at the third tier school with a partial scholarship.

I chose the the third tier, rather than apply to more schools, because I knew that I wanted to study the field of law that the third tier school specialized in. Although a TT school, it has been ranked either 1 or 2 in its specialty by US News for 15 or 16 years straight.

I graduated No. 18 in my law school class of approximately 170. I was on law review/moot court blah blah blah and was one of three or four people in my class to get offers from BigLaw.

I ended up at BigLaw after graduation, where I stayed for six and half years before following six partners to a midsize firm that specializes in my practice area.

Based on my experience, I think students are fine at TT school if (i) the TT has a good reputation in a particular practice area and the student wants to work in that practice area, (ii) the student ranks high in his graduating class, and (iii) the student can write.

I certainly have no regrets going to a TT school. In fact, I see it as an advantage because it makes opposing 1st Tier counsel underestimate me .... just before I take their lunch money.

Good reads, thanks. I especially appreciated 48's comments. I am attending a Third Tier School with a full scholarship--a number offered me scholarships. I passed on plenty of higher ranked schools.

I am changing careers from another government position and am interested in working in public service. Having little debt after law school is a big deal and will allow me to pursue work I find meaningful. Thanks for your thoughts--I found them especially lucid and salient and the reason I actually visit this site and sift through so many poor comments for gems like that one.

Heavy girls from T3 schools work for the Department of Defense Summer Programs, after firms take at look at them and say "no thanks"

Marissa said "I went to Hofstra and now work at Katten. Anything is possible. Do not listen to the naysayers. "

Since you are the only Hofstra grad, and you werent' on law review or graduated with honors- I think you got hire for your looks.

Marissa said "I went to Hofstra and now work at Katten. Anything is possible. Do not listen to the naysayers. "

Since you are the only Hofstra grad, and you werent' on law review or graduated with honors- I think you got hire for your looks.

PIERCE LAW IS THE YALE OF T-3.

Those of you that are hating on T-3 schools are a bunch of idiots and you have no idea what you are talking about. I lived it up in college. I didnt do well in terms of my GPA or even my LSAT. I entered a T-3 school b/c its the only one that let me in. I worked hard and I graduated in top 25 students. I will be starting in Nov at the biggest firm in the region. I also know of many other students that were ranked lower that are doing well even in this economy. Just b/c you went to a top school does not make you a bad ass, get you heads out of your asses. Plus, as someone else pointed out, after you work for a few years it wont matter what school you went to, even for some of the bigger firms.

Those of you that are hating on T-3 schools are a bunch of idiots and you have no idea what you are talking about. I lived it up in college. I didnt do well in terms of my GPA or even my LSAT. I entered a T-3 school b/c its the only one that let me in. I worked hard and I graduated in top 25 students. I will be starting in Nov at the biggest firm in the region. I also know of many other students that were ranked lower that are doing well even in this economy. Just b/c you went to a top school does not make you a bad ass, get you heads out of your asses. Plus, as someone else pointed out, after you work for a few years it wont matter what school you went to, even for some of the bigger firms.

Those of you that are hating on T-3 schools are a bunch of idiots and you have no idea what you are talking about. I lived it up in college. I didnt do well in terms of my GPA or even my LSAT. I entered a T-3 school b/c its the only one that let me in. I worked hard and I graduated in top 25 students. I will be starting in Nov at the biggest firm in the region. I also know of many other students that were ranked lower that are doing well even in this economy. Just b/c you went to a top school does not make you a bad ass, get you heads out of your asses. Plus, as someone else pointed out, after you work for a few years it wont matter what school you went to, even for some of the bigger firms.

213-- really? Why don't we just kill all the handicapped people, disadvantaged minorities, and homeless people? Or everyone without blue eyes and blond hair? That way we can have the purist of attorneys.

For those of you who think that all law schools out of the T25 should be burned down should be ashamed of yourselves. Have you ever thought that the majority of these students have no desire to be BigLaw attorneys (read: Overpaid, pompous attorneys in LA, NY, Chi or DC with a larger sense of entitlement than intellectual capacity)?

These T-3 students keep the local legal markets within each state afloat and in check-- as prosecutors, PD's, DA's, small/medium size firm associates, or "big firm" associates (state or regional firms with 60-200 attorneys). Many of these students will be very successful, have normal lives, have all the luxuries one could want, all while still maintaining relationships with family and friends. Many will have to work harder to get there-- which I know is a completely foreign concept to many of you who have had everything handed to you your entire life. But they will get there, because achieving something on your own steam feels so much better than riding on the prestige earned by former students of an institution you get to attend because you scored high enough on one test.

I second the comment about working obscene hours and not knowing who your children are-- why do any of you think its so great to work 20 hours a day with a failing marriage and deteriorating family life? The highest rates of depression, suicide, and health problems are attributed to attorneys in these types of positions. Wearing anything less than a $4000 suit at your premature funeral would be disgraceful.

Some things are more important than $160k (wait, $145k, $130k...) per year to start. It might take third tier students a bit longer to get to that number, but with a much more manageable cost of living, I'm sure it will all equal out in the end.

A family friend graduated from a top law school, is a partner at a major firm, and makes obscene amounts of money. He travels 65% of the time, works every Saturday, CANNOT be seen without the latest gadget for checking emails, and schedules an hour a week with his child. My husband, a father of 4 and former mid-level corporate manager who worked full-time while attending law school, graduated from a T3 school. (It was close to the job, fit the budget, and promised not to give the, "to the right of you, to the left of you, they won't be here at the end of your journey," speech.) T3 Hubby is building a great practice where the money is not "obscene," but it's dirty enough to feel good. The work is local, the decisions are his, and the wife has keys to the office. T3 Hubby is sleeping right now, getting ready for a big drive. We're heading to the lake for the weekend, the sort of place where cell phone reception is impossible... and checking emails is unthinkable.

You can argue about whether your school wins or my school wins or some other school wins, but in the end, it always works out the same way, you see: I win. Remember that at all times. Please and thanks.

It's interesting how T2 students (in the T2 threads) are more humble and seem to accept their place in the pecking order. (i.e. top students can go biglaw, others must fight for the best job they can get). T3/4 boosters in this thread are much more militant. Maybe they feel the need to be that way because posters are more rude to them, or maybe they are insecure.

fuck life.