The Major Houses cannot afford to have the Minor Houses stop recruiting; how else would we perpetuate the faufreluch system? 'Every man for a place and a place for every man.'

Not everyone can be a mentat and not everyone can be a Duke or a Baron. And not everyone can be a wage slave on Giedi Prime.

Stopping this cycle would introduce chaos in the known universe. Is this a Tleilax plot?

I think it's time for the Class of 2011 to raise the white flag.

Cravath summers now have to pay for the privilege of wiping Mr. Chesler's ass.

Evan Chesler

Yeah, Bob Saudek's reasoning makes sense to me. Attracting, instructing and evaluating talent through such and overblown and rigid process always seemed a bit unwieldy to me. And case in point: the model as a whole is crashing...

Cue whining from a bunch of pampered 20-something law students about how Morris Manning is "never going to attract top talent now."

The days of the class of 2009's shitting all over the class of 2010's victory are over.

Time to pay it forward to the Class of 2011!

This sucks... Aerospace did this in the 80s, which led to today's bicameral age distribution amongst engineers. They vowed never to completely freeze hiring again...

Philosophically, that sounds good and everything, but in the mean time I'm going to spend my time googling places that let me apply to hundreds of firms automatically... With enough first years like that guy at QE, someone must be hiring.

I never understood the logic behind replacing mid-level associates with inexperienced and unproven summer associates year after year. Right now, there are thousands of experienced biglaw associates laid-off and looking for work. You'd choose a summer associate who hasn't written a real motion or brief over a laid-off latham associate with a HYS degree and 6 years of experience?

There should be a couple of more options in your poll. There's nothing wrong with a summer associate program in which a reasonable number of summers do some actual work. The problem is the unsustainable system that the law firms have developed over the past 25 years. Not only are today's programs a waste of money, they feed the horrid sense of entitlement that many law students have.

The class of 2011 was truly born for the yoke. In ancient times, marauding bands would invade a settlement and leave with the young and healthy members to be used as slaves. So it will be again for the class of 2011. Except the marauding bands will not be Huns or Mongols, but rather insurance defense and PI firms. And the settlements will not be vulnerable tribes but rather places like Harvard and Yale law schools. Sh*tlaw will soon descend upon Ivy League law schools like a plague of locusts.

I don't see how top firms can abandon these programs entirely, though we may see across-the-board salary cuts for summers soon. We're always going to have the V10 firms competing for the cream of the crop from HYS. It may be that now you need to be top 20% from HLS to get an offer at S&C rather than top 35% (or whatever the cutoff used to be), but S&C is still going to be competing with CSM, DPW, STB, and CGHS for those top-20% students. And those students are going to be drawn to a firm that offers them 10 weeks of generous pay and a chance to experience the firm, even if the salary drops a bit in the coming years.

In short, it seems like the real issue is that the selectivity of summer programs is going to increase while the extravagance of the programs decreases, but the existence of the programs themselves as a mechanism for attracting talent away from peer firms does not seem likely to change.

Clients are not the only ones who don't want to pay for the excesses of firms' interviewing, recruiting, overpaying, wining, and dining summer law clerks (let's do away with the idiotic 'summer associate' term).

My guess is that most of the lawyers in each firm with continuing summer law clerk programs are in fear of losing their jobs or hanging onto what business they have (and that includes more and more partners). They, and ALL the staffers (who know more about those excesses than do many of the lawyers) want to see those excesses ended.

Simply put, the net profit "pie" that partners slice up amongst themsleves is smaller, and figures to remain that way for awhile. That pie is much larger without the drag on profits from those excesses.

what a stupid post. if theres nothing better to write, don't write anything

13:

What a stupid comment. If there's nothing better to write, don't write anything.

I vote get rid of em'. I already had my ride on the gravy train and it will be funny to watch the kids complain about not getting theirs.

Besides, the costs for these programs are really unnecessary. How much recruiting really needs to be done to give someone a $160k job right now? Seriously.

The Summer Associate regime as we know/knew it made sense at a time when clients (and partners) were willing to write down the costs of summers (and first-years) as a duty to the profession, lawyers committed to a Firm "for life" at the outset of their careers, and Biglaw lateral recruiting pipelines were virtually nonexistent.

None of the fundamental assumptions underlying summer associateships have held true in recent years, and in the present economy, they seem like downright quaint notions from a bygone era. As the rest of the legal profession restructures, so too must the summer associate programs - going forward, they must become (1) more cost-effective, (2) more substantive, and (3) more realistic than in the past.

this claim that there won't be summers in the future is foolish. These firms cutting hiring will be out of business in a couple years. Cutting out the two hour expensive lunches is fine, but cutting the programs is a sign that these firms are on the downhill.

14:

What a stupid comment about a stupid comment.

The Summer Associate regime as we know/knew it made sense at a time when clients (and partners) were willing to write down the costs of summers (and first-years) as a duty to the profession, lawyers committed to a Firm "for life" at the outset of their careers, and Biglaw lateral recruiting pipelines were virtually nonexistent.

None of the fundamental assumptions underlying summer associateships have held true in recent years, and in the present economy, they seem like downright quaint notions from a bygone era. As the rest of the legal profession restructures, so too must the summer associate programs - going forward, they must become (1) more cost-effective, (2) more substantive, and (3) more realistic than in the past.

HOW ABOUT THIS POLL QUESTION:

If you KNEW that your job would be safer by eliminating or drastically decreasing the expense of your firm's summer associate program, would you want your firm to do so?

7 - But this downturn is DIFFERENT. It is the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Haven't you heard?

13 - This is actually a very interesting post. Thanks Lat and Elie.

I'm not sure McEwen read Saudek's comments. The question isn't whether firms should stop hiring entry-level attorneys altogether. The question is whether they have to buy them dinner (and pay them) first. Saudek seems to be saying that there will be plenty of 3Ls on the market when the time comes, so why drop 30 grand on a bunch of 2Ls?

The conventional response has always been that summer programs are a way for firms to evaluate new hires before they hire them. But once 90% offer rates became the market norm (demanded both by recruits AND top-school CSOs), that function was gone.

Makes sense to me...

-- deferred '09 grad

The Summer Associate regime as we know/knew it made sense at a time when clients (and partners) were willing to write down the costs of summers (and first-years) as a duty to the profession, lawyers committed to a Firm "for life" at the outset of their careers, and Biglaw lateral recruiting pipelines were virtually nonexistent.

None of the fundamental assumptions underlying summer associateships have held true in recent years, and in the present economy, they seem like downright quaint notions from a bygone era. As the rest of the legal profession restructures, so too must the summer associate programs - going forward, they must become (1) more cost-effective, (2) more substantive, and (3) more realistic than in the past.

Keep the summer programs but reduce the pay. At the end of the program, make offers to students who proved their character and quality of work. Complete elimination of such programs makes no sense.

Law is like every other business. When the tide receeds it gets really easy to tell the top players from the rest. Big, kick-ass firms that survive this disaster will maintain their summer programs. Middling firms that never should have had summer programs in the first place will terminate them. (See also associate salary differentiation.) Did anyone think the associate experience at CSM and Jacoby & Myers would stay the same forever?

22 - MacEwen hadn't read Saudek's comments. Note the lead-in to MacEwen's blockquote: "In a post late last year over at Adam Smith Esq...."

MacEwen might not have read Saudek's comments, but the general point / issue is still the same: Leave an opening in the pipeline, or not?

"and clients are no longer willing to bear the expense of law firm hiring and training."

Does anyone else think it would be okay if Law schools started training lawyers? Instead of the current 3-year whack-off session that it is?

Is McDermott Will & Emery going to merge with anyone?

this recession is mostly over. It'll be the end of the year before the recovery happens, but the drama is finished. The firms doing drastic things now are going to be caught with their pants down at the end of the year when the work comes back. Most of the separation in the firms over the next year or two will be caused by overreaction.

Come on...really..."clients are no longer willing to bear the expense of law firm hiring and training" Do clients expect that experienced lawyers grow on trees? Illogical excuse for trying to get lower fees. Seriously, will it be cheaper to pay a partner to do doc review or a SA? Cutting the pipeline for junior associates leads to having a firm staffed with all senior associates and partners. Can't wait to see clients complaining about partner pay next

Former Morris Manning associate here.

MMM took some drastic action a while back and cut their summer program and, I believe, rescinded first-year offers. They were trashed in the Atlanta legal community but they seem to be holding their own at this point, having just taken in some attorneys from the late Powell Goldstein.

Saudek is a smart guy, and I would be surprised if their extreme tactics earlier this year and the changes to the summer program don't just pay off in making MMM become one of Atlanta's strongest firms (not that it wasn't already one of the most profitable).

Back in my days in biglaw, I resented the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent on the whole charade. Offers were made to almost all the "kids," even those who were obviously not likely to be with the firm in 3 years, so we knew that amounted to throwing even more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ down the drain ... that could have been spent on better benefits and compensation to the mid- and senior level associates and counsel who actually made the firm its money and provided its clients the overwhelming percentage of their legal services.

The only ones who liked the absurd charade were the summers who competed to see who could do the most outrageous stuff and still get an offer, and the lawyers and recruiting staff who partied with them.

I wonder as well how many marriages of lawyers and staff suffered or ended because of the shenanigans associated with the summer partying....

SO ... not much to recommend the continuation of the idiotic practice, which of course means that the V20 will continue it in lockstep, lemminglike, to their detriment.

I said it before, and now I will say it again. Adam Lambert was robbed last night. Also, Rod Stewart's singing was turrible. Absolutely turrible.

25 is correct. There is little to add here, except to widen the scope and predict the same effect on salaries.

I don't understand the "lost generation" concern. So what if a firm doesn't have a first-year class in 2010, 2011, and 2012. There is no reduction in the number of law school grads (it's actually quite the opposite). If the economy does pick up, then the firm can utlitze all that unnecessary expense to recruit lateral attorneys who will actually provide a better return on the firm's investment. Why do you think medium-sized firms and boutique firms are managing this recession well? Most of those firms don't have a summer program and a lot of those firms exclusively hire laterals.

Firms don't need a summer associate class in 2010. If they want incoming associates in fall 2011 they can simply hire 3Ls; lord knows the market will be full of them. In this economy only the cream of the student crop will get snatched up next summer. If you aren't a top 10 firm (which I don't even believe in anymore), then you might as well save the money and just spend a little extra time interviewing 3Ls when you actually know better what your hiring needs will be.

There's no need to thank me.
I was happy to do it.

35 is onto something

As an outside counsel who hires lawyers (not firms) to do needed work, I avoid the big law firms, not only because of their bloated cost structures but because their best true "lawyers" have left for the boutiques that are run like my company => LEAN & EFFICIENT & FOCUSED ON QUALITY & CUSTOMER SERVICE

Fair enough, 26. I was a little sloppy.

But I think my point still holds. They're only creating a hole in the pipeline if they stop entry-level hiring altogether. A firm that doesn't hire any 2Ls in the fall of 2009 but hires 3Ls in the fall of 2010 has no greater "hole" than a firm that hires 2Ls in 2009 but no 3Ls in 2010. Does anyone really doubt that there will be qualified 3Ls available then?

For a elite firm, the recruiting hit might be very costly. But for a second-tier firm in a second-tier market, having to recruit 10 points deeper in the class at UGA, 'Bama, etc. might be worth the cost savings.

Like the equally silly concept of "market" pay, I won't be at all surprised if the summer-associate concept goes back to being the realm of the truly elite firms. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

-- 22

Saudek is mostly talking about the enormous expense associated with summer programs in the Altanta market. It is like nothing you've ever seen (yes, even you New Yorkers)--5 star lunches every single day (without exception), at least two or three times a week for dinner as well, along with an orgy of concerts, sporting events, parties, and a firm retreat.

Those days are sadly over, now only nostalgic fodder for a Tom Wolfe novel.

This is a bad move. Summer associates are a firm's lawyers of the future. If firms don't get a piece of that action, they risk everything they have. Maybe not now, but years from now.

Poster 29,

The recession is nearing a conclusion, but the heady days of Biglaw as we knew (or thought we knew) them are over and done for for the foreseeable future. The economics of Biglaw practice have shifted, likely permanently, such that increases in the volume of work won't provide the boost to firms that it once did. Numerous Fortune 500s have shifted substantal amounts of their legal work away from the Vault/AmLaw firms towards regional outfits that can get the job done at price points Biglaw can't match at current overhead cost levels. And even for the uber-sophisticated work that goes only to the firms in, say, the V50, clients are going slow on paying bills and demanding lower rates, making firms far more conscious of cashflow management and cost controls.

35,

Where will these firms be hiring their "laterals" from? BK? McDonalds?

The classes of '09 and '10 are screwed for certain. Most won't gain sufficient experience to be considered a "lateral" for anything other than family law.

Enjoy!

Saudek and his firm are correct in making this adjustment. We have not reached bottom, only the rate of descent has slowed. The demand for legal services will not recover until the second quarter of 2010.

35 - Evey big firm cannot hire laterals. In a few years, even if every mid level in the country is willing to switch jobs, there won't be enough of them for every firm because there will have been no class of 2009, 2010, etc. Think about it a little harder and it'll come to you.

So ...

Would you rather buy a so-called sports car from bloated and inefficient and hopelessly lost-its-way GM ...

Or a true high performance sports car from quality-driven Porsche?

Buyers of legal services have a similar choice these days. BIGLAW = GM

35--once you miss biglaw (or, profit-wise, an equivalent) as a law student, there's almost no shot you'll ever get back in unless you're a rainmaker or some such fellow

Elie is smelly.

There, I said it. Someone had to.

47 needs to ask why one who missed biglaw would ever want to get into it, unless/until it changes dramatically and has a business plan that makes sense (42 is right, except this recession is NOT nearing its conclusion)

Oh noes!! the ridonkulous caste-system-enforced pyramid scheme is coming apart!! whats ize to do???

schadenfreude

46,

Right on.

BIGLAW = GM and BIGLAW's 3L furloughs = UAW.

Why am I paying for a 25 year old to not work for 18 months?

-In house demanding (further) rate reductions

Poster 29,

The recession is nearing a conclusion, but the heady days of Biglaw as we knew (or thought we knew) them are over and done for for the foreseeable future. The economics of Biglaw practice have shifted, likely permanently, such that increases in the volume of work won't provide the boost to firms that it once did. Numerous Fortune 500s have shifted substantal amounts of their legal work away from the Vault/AmLaw firms towards regional outfits that can get the job done at price points Biglaw can't match at current overhead cost levels. And even for the uber-sophisticated work that goes only to the firms in, say, the V50, clients are going slow on paying bills and demanding lower rates, making firms far more conscious of cashflow management and cost controls.

Louis Zaccareli is better than all of you.

You are all poor and dress terribly.

49 - You're right. And to get back on topic, one of the most absurd parts of biglaw's business plan is its summer associate orgy.

Another is its refusal to look at itself in the mirror on a regular basis and make changes needed to get healthy and survive.

45, your point is interesting until you understand:
1. There are too many firms.
2. There are too many lawyers at these firms
3. There are too many law schools pumping out shitty lawyers.

The system will not truly be adjusted until shit-farms like Regent law school close because 90% of their graduates can't get (legal) work.

-Not 35

43,

So we should just hire recent graduates for the heck of it? Should the bigfirms be altruistic and hire everyone because we don't want law grads to be jobless?

This recession has sparked a needed correction in the legal profession, especially among the larger law firms. It would be ridiculous if the LAW SCHOOLS do not also change. We are only pushing the inevitable if we keep hiring law students to fufill inexistent jobs. I think it would be better to have a full market correction, stop over-hiring recent law grads, and force crappy law schools to either reduce tuition or close shop altogether. Law schools operate under the guise that there is a chance that they will get a job paying $100K+ right out of law school. By eliminating those jobs, law schools have no way of skewing their job statistics. Even though very few people win the lottery, lots of folks still buy lotto tickets. The same is true for a lot of the tier 3 and tier 4 law schools. Eliminate the jackpot jobs and there will be no need for law students to keep gambling.

Firm's won't be eliminating their summer programs. EVER. Why?

For whatever bass ackwards reason, there is little correspondence between the skills acquired (and refined) in law school and skills needed to succeed as a lawyer. If you hire doctor straight out of med school, you know said doctor had two years intense practical training (at least). If you hire an engineer/scientist (Ph.D), you know you're hiring someone who has the training necessary to 'advance' the field. As little respect as I have for a business degree, its hard not to acknowledge that most of the people getting these glorified pieces of TP have 3-4 years of relevant work experience.

Even if summer programs degenerated into 12 week orgies, firms still got a good look at new recruits. When times were good firms had more work than they knew what do with. Instead of not hiring the knucklehead who slacked off all summer and stumbled in drunk to a couple of meetings, firms hiring these clowns because the needed bodies that could bill. Now, not so much. Firms no longer have to hire the complete f-ing retards.

The fact that firms choose not to use the summer programs to evaluate potential employees, doesn't they don't (or can't) serve that purpose. Firms need summer programs and they will keep them.

Is it wrong that lawyer layoffs make me horny?

Cutting summer associates is a risky move for firms.

On the one hand, it could save money in the short term for the firm. In theory, this could allow the firm to be competitive by cutting rates. I said, in theory.

On the other hand, it could damage a firm looking for business down the road since it won't have experienced associates. In the long run, firms will cannibalize each other looking for experienced associates and the money will come flowing for assocates.

Since I don't care about the long term health of law firms (or even associates since they're fungible), I'll go with cutting summer associates and cutting rates NOW.

In the long run, I will move my business to the surviving firms that are agile and swift enough to change in the face of demand for experienced associates.

~ In House CHOAM Counsel

38. Amen to that.

Pay contractors or in-house counsel a salary to do the doc review and routine interviews & discovery work.

The only thing we need are partners or senior level attorneys to fashion litigation strategy and go to court. Why pay PRIMO $$$ for some jerkoff 25-year-old to make $160K doing the same job a bunch of bottom feeder doc-review attorneys could do for far cheaper?

The fact that BIGLAW even got to this point should reflect poorly on the judgment, or lack thereof, of those managing some of the bohemoths about to collapse: DLA, Skadden, Lathan, etc.

The Emperor’s Sardaukar terror-troops were the most formidable fighting force in the known universe because their homeworld, Salusa Secundus, was a harsh place where only the fiercest, hardened people could survive. In a one-on-one fight, Fremen could beat the Sardaukar because Arrakis was an even more demanding proving ground.

When I look at the soft faces of Biglaw associates, brought together through name recognition and artificially engineered diversity, I see great need for a culling. I say, force them all into the crucible of solo practice for a few years, or make them work for free. The firms with the most demanding regimen will produce the most superior warriors ..er .. lawyers.

"I wonder as well how many marriages of lawyers and staff suffered or ended because of the shenanigans associated with the summer partying...."

Look on the bright side: how many lonely attorneys finally got some due to intoxicated young summers?

The Emperor’s Sardaukar terror-troops were the most formidable fighting force in the known universe because their homeworld, Salusa Secundus, was a harsh place where only the fiercest, hardened people could survive. In a one-on-one fight, Fremen could beat the Sardaukar because Arrakis was an even more demanding proving ground.

When I look at the soft faces of Biglaw associates, brought together through name recognition and artificially engineered diversity, I see great need for culling. I say, force them all into the crucible of solo practice for a few years, or make them work for free. The firms with the most demanding regimen will produce the most superior warriors ..er .. lawyers.

Bruce MACEwen has hi s head up his ass (firmly). There is a large pool of attorneys and law school grads out there with varying degrees of experience. Firms will hire these candidates as they see fit. There is absolutely no need to maintain a year-by-year SA progression when the economy won't support it. When things pick up, the out-of-work attorneys will be hired up, as will law school grads. And those people will be happy to get job offers at whatever salaries the market bears. There is no 'chain' that needs to be maintained for the sale of tradition. Law firms hire, law firms fire, and people still go to law school and compete for jobs.

BTW, Bruce MACEwen has serious motivation to see law firms do business as usual. It pads his wallet. His comments from such a biased perspective should be taken with a grain of salt.

And what's up with that truly frightening cadaver (Janet Stanton) on his site? EEEEEK!!!!!

The firms ought to get smart amd work with the law schools to provide summer "externships" -- the law students pay tuition and get l.s. credit for working their behinds off for them in a summer term. The law students will do it if it provides good experience and gives them a leg up in the market; solves our complaint about no "apprenticeship" system anymore or useful skills taught in law school, and the firms pay ZERO for them.

All the biglaw people and biglaw wannabees need to read ##46 and 51 ...

... that is, if they are wondering why they are in the predicaments they are in.

As an in-house lawyer for a profitable company that intends to stay that way, I can't in good conscience recommend we use any biglaw firm lawyers to staff our outside work. They invariably cost too much, are stuck on themselves too much, are slower than the competition, can't be reached when needed, and, perhaps most tellingly, they are HORRIBLE listeners.

Why? They are SO SURE of themselves, like some of the idiots who post comments on this site, and PRESUME to know what their client wants, never bothering to ask, or, when they ask, to LISTEN.

If they LISTENED, they would have heard the collective SCREAMS of their corporate clients years ago to FIX THEIR BROKEN FIRM BUSINESS MODELS!!!!!!!!

55 - Regent law school and the rest of the shit farms have very little effect on the number of attorneys in biglaw. While that number will fluctuate and big firms may get more efficient and do with fewer, there wouldn't have been as many as there were if they weren't getting paid by clients. I don't understand why this is so complicated. Of course there are too many firms with too many lawyers RIGHT NOW. But that won't always be the case.

The real story here is that one of Pogo's premier practices(Timber) up and left the merged Bryan Cave Pogo for MMM. You got to wonder if that merger (read hail mary acquisition) is troubled if they're losing this group to MMM (which is less highly regarded than BC and the big Atlanta based firms). Particularly, since,one of the partners that left for MMM was both on the Board at Pogo and on the integration committee responsible for a smooth integration of BC and Pogo. This one has the Atlanta legal community scratching their heads in wonderment as to what shape BC Pogo is in and why MMM?

Why is the option lavish, expensive summer program versus no summer program? Why not a regular summer internship? Pay a nominal wage -- some hourly thing. Give them some work and test them out. Make offers at the end of the summer based on performance or attitude or work ethic rather than on boosting NALP offer rates. Summer programs make sense. Summer programs that pay students an associate-level salary do not.

For that matter, first years in firms ought to be training. Pay 80k or 75k and train, then bump them to real associate salaries with associate-level hours requirements in second year.

And yes, that means clients will be paying for training. But law school does not give practical education, and law grads are not prepared to practice law. Lawyers have to be trained somehow. Right now there are trained lawyers practically growing on trees because of the economy, but that will not always be so; at some point, firms will need new lawyers and the lateral options will not be appealing (especially, I imagine, for the more entry-level lawyer needs). Firms need to develop a sustainable model for training lawyers that makes financial sense.

This will create even more a major class system among law firms. The ones who keep summer associate programs will get the best and brightest lawyers, and those who don't will get grads of third tier schools like Fordham, Brooklyn, and Cincinatti. Those firms with third tier mentality will get third tier clients, while we big boys become even stronger. I say let the Slags cancel their programs...they are just eliminating themselves from relevance!

-DENNY CRANE

The poll should include two more bullet points:

I am an associate

I am a law student

Do associates who went through a firm's summer associate program perform better at firms that 3L hires? If not, the summer associate program is a waste.

40,

I'm not sure how true your depiction of Atlanta summers is, at least as far as dining. I ate a lot of Chick-Fil-A last summer.

This is a false dilemma.

Law firms could easily retain their summer associate programs at a fraction of the current cost. In this climate law students would still readily commit to summer associate program with drastically reduced salaries and without all of the wasteful events.

Fish & Richardson just called a bunch of their 3Ls and told them to F#*! off - offer rescinded.

This is likely that last summer class F&R plans to have, and it will no-offer most of this class,

73

Atlanta summers get a lot of watermelon, hominy grits, fried chicken, and collard greens, with a liberal dose of mint juleps. It's that fucking hot there and it's a fucking cultural wasteland.

Summers only take up precious time that I could be using to pound my secretary in her ass.

3L hires are generally more desperate and motivated.

76,

What you fail to acknowledge is how f'ing delicious most of that list is.

MMM is missing an opportunity here. It is currently at or near the bottom of the so called Atlanta Daily (Dirty?) Dozen. MMM should use these down years in the economy to recruit a few best and brightest students that would normally get offers from the bigger & better Atlanta based shops but are now less choosey. While I've no doubt that MMM will have the opportunity to hire laterals in a few years, it's going to slip even further in the Atlanta talent pool with its strategy of 2+ years of no recruiting.

PS to 73: any summer involving lots of chik fila is a very good summer in my book.

Serious Question:

What if BigLaw switched to unpaid summer associate programs? Would you summer at Skadden for free lunch and experience?

77- Your secretary is a guy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

This is by far the dumbest idea I have ever heard. The lateral market is only going to be flooded for so long. At some point the market will return closer to equilibrium (well at least back to pre-recession glut of attorney levels), and then these firms will no longer have well qualified laterals, and because of the lack of places to learn the profession and the fact that law school does not teach anything practical...in a few years firms will find that the lateral market is glutted with unqualified lawyers, 1-3-years out of law school, with no practical experience. Firms need to keep these programs to ensure that they have half decent mid-level talent in the years to come. I agree with 74 that they should be cutting the salaries and the events. Ideally though, I think more firms should go to the model that Drinker Biddle adopted. Pay 1st years and summers significantly less, bill them out at significantly less, and actually train them. This seems like a solution that everyone can get on board with, aside from douchy, 1Ls with a sense of entitlement to their 160k...

In the light of full disclosure, I am a non-douchy newly minted 2L, who doesn't have a sense of entitlement, but is nervous as hell for OCI in August...

The only good thing about Atlanta were the strip clubs that I went to as an associate in Sutherland.

Serious Question:

What if BigLaw switched to unpaid summer associate programs? Would you summer at Skadden for free lunch and experience?

56,

The best reason for not having a 'hole' is that if there is a strong rebound, there's a decent chance of getting f-ed in the A.

In the early 90s when HP was taking a beating, they slowed (not even stopped) recruiting at the lower levels for a few years. Guess what happened when dotcom mania hit? A lot of the experienced researchers jumped ship to either join a startup or create their own new venture. Newly minted grads and those with only a couple of years of experiences weren't the ones who could start their own business or at least attract the capital (until VCs got drunk anyways) to start a new business.

The result? Depleted ranks at the top and next to no one to step in from the lower ranks. Lateral hiring is great, but it still takes time to get people up to speed. Not to mention, peers who were just as stupid as you were also need the very lateral hires, in effect bidding up the prices for somewhat inefficient (initially) hires.

The Moral: Don't get drunk and destroy your liver when the times are good. Let yourself have an occasional beer when times are tough. There's no need to go from binge drinker to teetotaler.

Summer programs are a wasteful travesty and should definitely be cut starting next year.

-Current Summer

Number 2, Excellent post.

Biglaw companies' firing employees helter skelter demonstrates both defective counsel and the firings' to be involuntary; companies act without counsel or involuntarily only when desperate: why provide for the future or act unless compelled by either empty bank accounts or a bankruptcy court? Some stupid lawyers here credit firings to be a voluntary means of conserving huge profits for partners; since the greatest source of profits for Biglaw had been Structured Finance and M&A, where now after the two sources had been annihilated do Biglaw companies earn any money at all? Biglaw will pursue I-Banking in US into extinction.

People need to get training somewhere. Summer programs are not a bad idea, they are just broken.

Instead of wining and dining SA's, work them to the bone like real first-year associates-If they can hack the stress and the hours--Hire them. If not, why make an offer? Plus the $$$ saved by not wining and dining them will help make the process more affordable. Hell--give them a 2000-2300 Billable-hour/year schedule during their summer stay.

I am for changing the summer programs to represent a real first-year's experience. But getting rid of them? That's a poor solution.

As far as a lost generation? Hell with that--this will set up a precedent for future generations, too. Besides, lateral hires are often set in their ways and cause friction for other employees.

To summarize--keep the summer program, but make it realistic with billable hours and grunt-work. Forget parties.

40 is right. Atlanta's summer programs have been notoriously beyond belief ... especially the retreat weekends.

As a lawyer who tried to determine which participants in those programs were worthy to be my colleagues after law school, it was hard to get enough of their time to do so. They were always off to a party/meal, at a party/meal, or about to leave for a party/meal. Many complained about how much weight they gained having to eat gourmet food twice a day and drink like fish, and how hard it was to have any time to themselves.

The uber-partiers invariably got reputations for sleaze, and offers. Many slept and partied their way through a few years of lockstep promotions and raises. Few cut it long-term. Many hopped from biglaw to biglaw to biglaw, seemingly trying to outrun their trampy reputations. Sad, really. I don't think Tom Wolfe writes well enough to do it justice....

Some very good quality people got offers but declined because they didn't like the vibe they got about the firm, which chose to value hedonism over professionalism. I was happy to confirm to several the wisdom of their choices not to join the firm. They are precisely the sort of good people I now seek to use for my company's legal work.

You see, law students, the wise ones among you can be spotted early, and rewarded well, over the long haul. The rest of you seem eager to get a biglaw bigbucks offer, oblivious to how illusory it is as a wise career move.

91

You are obviously talking about Sutherland.

I miss the Frog, Scorpion, and Toad. Good times.

People need to get training somewhere. Summer programs are not a bad idea, they are just broken.

Instead of wining and dining SA's, work them to the bone like real first-year associates-If they can hack the stress and the hours--Hire them. If not, why make an offer? Plus the $$$ saved by not wining and dining them will help make the process more affordable. Hell--give them a 2000-2300 Billable-hour/year schedule during their summer stay.

I am for changing the summer programs to represent a real first-year's experience. But getting rid of them? That's a poor solution.

As far as a lost generation? Hell with that--this will set up a precedent for future generations, too. Besides, lateral hires are often set in their ways and cause friction for other employees.

To summarize--keep the summer program, but make it realistic with billable hours and grunt-work. Forget parties.

I was a summer associate in BigLaw in 1998, back when we held all the power.

We'd take piggy-back rides on partners, snort cocaine in the office, all while listening to Radiohead and becoming Internet millionaires from day-trading.

I miss those days.

7 -

Believe it...it happend to me (senior associate being basically replaced by an incoming first year).

Even when I was a summer associate, I thought the entire process was silly and ridiculously artificial. I don't see why law firms can't recruit the way many other businesses do...interviewing, then taking a chance on an employee. Summer programs are a waste of money and energy on the part of the firm, and believe it or not, not all summer associates think its the best thing ever.

92 - 91 here

NOT Sutherland, but I know it and several others fit that mold.

Given the stuff here on the K&S thread about Sutherland, it would seem to be Exhibit A for hedonism over professionalism, illustrated and fueled, no doubt, by orgastic summer follies.

Yes, 68, the renowned "Timber" practice. I bet the whole Atlanta community is relaly abuzz about that departure!

Didn't McEwen write Atonement? or something.

I caught a summer with a hooker in his room last night...Offered him a job on the spot!

-Denny Crane

65 and 69 are right on. It would be amusing to see Biglaw embrace such an approach, one that many would characterize as "TTT" or as reserved for those practicing "shitlaw."

I have always found the groundless elitism espoused by Biglaw SAs fascinating. Why, exactly, is a position as a glorified paralegal somehow superior to someone who actually saw the inside of a courtroom during his summer? Just because the prosecutor/public defender/small firm lawyer wasn't paid as much? When did it become "TTT" to actually want to learn the practice of law?

Make sure you try the schadenfreude. It tastes delicious.

- (employed) T1 first year who politely declined the biglaw circle jerk when it came a-knockin'.

Do you have to be morbidly gay to post on this site?

Everyone is gay on this site, including me.

morbidly refers to either a disease; or gloomy unwholesome feelings.

Gay means happy..therefore morbidly gay is an oxymoron

This is getting worse and worse for us law students. At this point, I'll take anything. Someone please help.

morbidly refers to either a disease; or gloomy unwholesome feelings.

Gay means happy..therefore morbidly gay is an oxymoron

I found the summer associate program in my NYC firm unhealthy, humiliating and baffling. What were they trying to sell me? Drunken evenings that went on and on. Stories about partners that I didn't want to know. Party after party in expensive places. More drinking.
What was it all about?

Getting to know you? Sorry,I don't think getting hammered is a great way to get to know people and bond. Especially when the next day I'm asked by the Associate who lead the way, "What Happened Last Night, I blacked out" Horrible uncreative waste of money, time and while I got paid, I felt like a heathen the whole summer. The program tried to re-create a Freshman College experience, somehow thinking that was what we all wanted. But, not me. I've moved on from being 18. I'm 26 now and want better things.

I mourn the passing of the out of control after parties of 2006 and 2007. May they rest in peace.

105,
Stop your self-righteous jibber jabber. Everyone likes getting drunk, everyone likes stories about what partners did when they were drunk. Everyone likes getting to know people by getting drunk.

You are obviously the fat girl I fired last Summer after we had drunk sex during the second week. I was so ashames of myself, that everytime I saw you my balls started hurting. I had to fire you for the health of my balls!

"I had to fire you for the health of my balls!" - that may be the quote of the year.

Oh 100, you and I are peas in a pod. I grin with schadenfreude on a daily basis when I hear about the next biggest douchebag from law school losing the job he paraded around like a cocky soulless bastard. They fall one by one. I start to feel guilty, but then remember that their behavior was shameful and this is far too entertaining.

- Employed T1 first year who chose to take a job in small law with great people doing amazing real work for plllllenty o' money. I feel so ahead it's ridiculous.

105 = the douchy self righteous, newly fired, Quinn Redskins email fiasco associate...

35/38 -

The "boutiques" are outperforming traditional BigLaw in this economy because they do not have large transactional departments, which are the lines of legal business that have been most negatively impacted by the recession. I say this as an associate in a litigation boutique -- we've got tons of work, so no one in my firm is going to get laid off, we have not frozen salaries, etc. But the size and quality of the transactions underlying our litigation is way down, and co-counsel (i.e., BigLaw) is obviously fighting for work that they would have declined in 2007.

Regarding summer programs generally, they exist for recruiting purposes, not training purposes and, except for very few firms, not for prestige purposes. No doubt BigLaw could offer summer associate positions for no salary (or even charge money for the right to join), and many among the T14 would jump at the chance in this economy. And the firm in the original post (which I had never heard of) is making the right decision -- if you don't need to recruit more attorneys, why recruit more attorneys? But all this talk of a permanent shift, or client cost sensitivity driving BigLaw decisions to forego hiring are silly. When the economy picks up, new lawyers will again be in high demand, and summer associateships will again be necessary to land them.

Morbidly gay = Texas sized gay

is this thread full of holier than thou pricks??? I'm looking at you 100, 105, 109. Seriously...100, 109...you guys sound like far bigger douches than any one that has ever gone to work for biglaw...

109 - How does one go about finding a job in small law that includes great work and great people?

Summer 2009: No Real Work, Fewer Perks, No Offer

105- you are either hung over (way hung over), or you need a stiff couple of drinks, or 4. Either way - you sound bitter.

40 and 91 have it exactly right. Anyoen who has experienced it wil immediately recognize it. As for the guy who claims he ate Chick Fil A last summer, last summer is most definitely not the prototype. Still, I'd be shocked if you were summering with a Biglaw Atlanta firm.

114 --

Start with traffic court. You meet intoxicating people there all day long!

Not 109

These programs are stupid. They make sense to a limited extent. You're not going to get the HYS kids without giving them summer positions if other schools are offering them summer positions. But once you get outside the very top firms, you're not getting that many of those kids anyway. Instead, you get the kid who's number 34 at Fordham or number 6 at Hofstra. Guess what? You could just as easily get the kid who's number 46 at Fordham or number 12 at Hofstra without offering any summer associate positions (and just going in to do 3L OCI) and there's essentially no difference between the 2 sets of kids.

These programs arose because firms are managed by lawyers who don't know how to run a business. Any sensible business would simply hire the marginally less talented lawyers from the same schools.

Summer Associate programs have always been a free-ride. Let them come in for little to no money and work hard for a job like everyone else. Most of them will hate it and not come back. Net result will be fewer law students and fewer lawyers. Problem solved.

What is a Hofstra?

The whole thing starts with the associates who go into BigLaw looking to jump ship after 3-4 years anyway. Notwithstanding those who are now desperate to avoid lay-offs, the whole reason firms have huge summer programs is because there was so much VOLUNTARY attrition for so many years.

If that dynamic continues after the recession abates, then firms will continue to need large summer classes. They need to ensure that after the voluntary departures, they still have enough senior associates left over to do quality work and strive for partnership.

15 is probably the most honest post on here. Most of the BIGLAW associates posting here are happy to discontinue summer associateships now because they already had their opportunity to be wined and dined with a guaranteed offer.

Hopefully those in charge of making actual business decisions at the firms will heed some of the better advice in this comment thread. The summer associate program options need not be polarized as either a Bacchanalian retreat or no program at all. Many law students are happy to be put to the test of stressful hours and demanding projects by which partners can judge their abilities.

There is no need for a 100% offer ratio. There is no need for wining and dining. Make these programs actual job interviews with actual stakes on the line.

well 113, I guess it's our turn to feel like hot shit. Only we don't display it outwardly to your face like you so foolishly did, instead we do it on anonymous internet boards. To your face we say "Oh no! I'm so sorry you lost your job. That's really unfair." When we know it wasn't unfair at all... you didn't deserve it, and you didn't learn jack shit while you were there. Sucks dude, but that's what you get for selling out for the "prestige."

Now I make six figures, work sick hours doing shit I love because I took the time to make the right choice. No one's heard of my firm, but fuck do I care? I have a job, bitches. But more than that, I have marketable skills. The only thing you have is the black hole where your arrogance used to be.

Where do you think partners go after they're done with the bullshit of big law? They take their best clients and start small firms, and they don't give a flying fuck about prestige because there's a lot fewer pigs at the trough and they are making BANK. (and no, we don't do personal injury or asbestos or criminal or dui, just to stem that backlash). My advice to those law students who don't have massive insecurities, and I am spilling the beans here, EXPLORE THE SMALL LAW OPTION THOROUGHLY.

124,
Congrats on having a job-I Have a gulfstream

Congrats on having great hours-I have a fishing lodge in Nimmo Bay

Congrats on spilling the beans-everyone on this board is familiar with small practicioners- in fact, I've put a few out of business!

113: You probably feel that way because you were never on the receiving end of the snide remarks or glances. Now that you are, you're indignant.

I summered in Biglaw and turned down my subsequent offer. Much of my experience with elitism comes from the Biglaw side of the aisle, i.e., the comments that are made when there's no need to be polite.

It's borne out time and time again in conversations and in these anonymous comments. If you're not in Biglaw, people automatically assume that you desired to be, but merely didn't make the cut. It's amazing how differently people treat someone when they discover that person actively declined a Biglaw offer in favor of government, or small law. The person is still perceived as "elite," but driven by personal goals. The same respect is not often afforded to the person who merely never bothered with Biglaw at all; instead, they are perceived as inadequate or "TTT." I seriously question why Biglaw, and its emphasis on doc review monkey recruiting, ever became the proxy for intellectual acumen.

Just my experience, and the repeated references to schadenfreude would suggest I'm not alone.

Sorry about your tiny pink karma, bro.

- 100

125 - No, you're a law student who posts on message boards pretending to be a fictional character from a tv show.

To small law attorneys - What are good ways to go about exploring that option and finding good firms and attorneys to work with?

As ugly as it is, this is what makes sense:

(1) Put together a reliable group of senior attorneys (associates, partners) charged with reviewing summers closely. Make sure summers are given at least a few projects that require complex reasoning and writing. Make offers ONLY to summers who show the best reasoning and writing skills and who are personable, enthusiastic and socially mature. That means only 1/4 to 1/2 of the summer class gets offers.

(2) Review new associates their first six months and, except for those who really stand-out, schedule quick follow-up reviews. Get rid of those who aren't top level performers.

(3) Keep the summer programs going, but with the guidelines above, firms won't be saddled with excess associates.

And, yes, an associate's overall capabilities are evident VERY early on. Half the summers at my Biglaw were obviously NOT top notch in personality or writing skills, etc. Now they're the ones with no work, no fucking sense to show some initiative like getting to know better their clients' industries, keeping track of financial reforms going down on the Hill.... or doing ANYTHING. They just sit glued in their chairs waiting for partners or senior associates to feed them boring work on projects that have long dried up.

I don't even know what a doc review is.

- small law non-monkey first-year

As ugly as it is, this is what makes sense:

(1) Put together a reliable group of senior attorneys (associates, partners) charged with reviewing summers closely. Make sure summers are given at least a few projects that require complex reasoning and writing. Make offers ONLY to summers who show the best reasoning and writing skills and who are personable, enthusiastic and socially mature. That means only 1/4 to 1/2 of the summer class gets offers.

(2) Review new associates their first six months and, except for those who really stand-out, schedule quick follow-up reviews. Get rid of those who aren't top level performers.

(3) Keep the summer programs going, but with the guidelines above, firms won't be saddled with excess associates.

And, yes, an associate's overall capabilities are evident VERY early on. Half the summers at my Biglaw were obviously NOT top notch in personality or writing skills, etc. Now they're the ones with no work, no fucking sense to show some initiative like getting to know better their clients' industries, keeping track of financial reforms going down on the Hill.... or doing ANYTHING. They just sit glued in their chairs waiting for partners or senior associates to feed them boring work on projects that have long dried up.

The "gap in the supply chain" argument is stupid. If there is demand down the road, hire laterals, ideally from smaller or midsize firms where the young attorneys actually practice and thus develop skills other than the glorified data entry that is document review.

114,128: Start with the community where your school is located, or the market to which you aspire. Talk to your CSO about small, local firms. Ask your CSO to put you in contact with a local practitioner(s) or judge(s) who can help you navigate the local legal community. Intern PT (for minimum wage or for free) for a local firm.

Even in tiny markets, firms have reputations and personalities. Identify those that are perceived as producing quality legal work. Some will work you like a dog and only pay you scraps (seriously - hours comparable to biglaw but for 1/3rd the money), others won't.

You have to dig in and do the footwork, i.e., be resourceful. Lawyers and judges love to gossip - LET THEM TALK and LISTEN. You'll learn much more useful information that you did in Torts 1L year.

The information is there if you care enough to uncover it.

- 100

Here's a stupid suggestion: Whittle the summer class down to very small number -- the best of the best students interviewed. Then focus on them, mentor them, and give them substantive work as summers and jr. associates so that they will stay with the firm and can grow into productive, business-developing senior associates. And then make them partners. I know, stupid stupid stupid.

The "gap in the supply chain" argument is also stupid because it's not like there are tasks that can only be uniquely done by someone in a specific class. Work for any given year can be done by someone more senior or junior. It's also not like everyone in each class has the same skill levels.

It's akin to people claiming that Toyota's factory furloughs will cause economic hardship down the road because of the shortage of 2010-produced cars in 2015.

is this thread full of holier than thou pricks??? I'm looking at you 100, 105, 109. Seriously...100, 109...you guys sound like far bigger douches than any one that has ever gone to work for biglaw...

128: out of everyone you know - your family, your friends, the friends of your family - at least one person has a small law attorney that they use or know personally. Get that friend/family member to set up a meeting (small law folks are generally open to this and eager to help/mentor someone who is legitimately interested in entering small law and not trying to look down their nose at them). Chances are this particular person won't have a spot for you, but they will KNOW someone who is hiring. (Small law folks collaborate all the time and know a ton of people). It's extremely difficult to get your foot in the door in small law (because of no help from OCI, & hiring is usually just word of mouth) but in this economy, you HAVE to know someone to get a job, so just keep making calls. Despite the evilness that proliferates on this site, most lawyers want to do what they can to help out the youngin's because they know it's tough out there.

Even if you have to start out in a -gasp- paralegal-type role, nine times out of ten something will come up, and as a presumably licensed lawyer, you will be asked to step up to the plate, perhaps even immediately. The pretense of a 'paralegal' position could have been to test your sincere desire to be there. This is your time to shine, and if you do prove your worth, a promotion, more responsibility, pay increase, experience, and a growing cache of your own work product is likely in your future. Beats the hell out of doing contract work in every regard. Best of luck.

I cosign comment 137.

132/135 - It's not stupid. Firms were caught flat-footed in both the mid-90's and mid-00's when there weren't enough associates to do the work. While it's true you could have more senior attorneys work down, you can't have more junior attorneys work up. Even if you threw hiring standards out the window and just picked up people who didn't have summer jobs and were looking for jobs after graduation, it still takes years to teach an associate how not to drool on themselves. Add in the fact you're getting the dullards who couldn't otherwise get hired so it takes even longer, and the gap creates a serious problem.

A significant faction at MMM has argued for years that the summer program should be eliminated. The firm's partnership ranks are made up almost completely of laterals from other, bigger ATL firms. Their associates invariably move on in year 5 or so when it becomes abundantly clear they have no long-term prospects at MMM. The economy is just the excuse they needed to convince the hold-outs that a summer program is worthless for the firm.

Certain Southern law firms headquartered in Atlanta will never get rid of their summer program. That's how they obtain willing tools in their orgiastic soap operas.

"... That's how we roll!"

The big question is now that salaries are cut, SA programs are cut and there are fewer jobs, will law schools reduce tuition?

142

No.

Love,

Class of 2006

142, you seem to suffer under this delusion that tuition is directly correlated to job prospects and workforce salaries. You should tell that to people studying in culinary school, architecture school, classical music school, or journalism school. Guess what, they all pay the same tuition as you.

The Philalawyer's Commencement should be given to every graduate:

“Good morning. I’d like to start by noting, you’re all fucked. The Market’s going to 6000 this summer, unemployment is headed to twenty percent and I think there’s a good chance we’re going to see widespread rioting in the streets before this thing is over. Mutant armies irradiated with dirty bomb fallout, dogs and cats living together… everything but the Rapture. My advice is buy a gun. Something automatic. And get some big dogs. You’ll need them to guard the compound. The good news is you won’t have to pay back those student loans. The bad news is you’ll have to turn tricks for Spam, candy corn and toilet paper, our new forms of currency. I know, I know… How bleak. But you can always look on the bright side. Speaking in the Confucian sense, you’re as wealthy as one can be. These are indeed interesting years. Here’s to surviving them...”

Dead on arrival.

Where were my orgies?

Atlanta Summer '08

97 -- their practice is multi-million and is one of the few transactional practices that is busy (deals are 100+ Million involving serious I-banks and institutional money)-- so yes, folks are scratching their heads as to why MMM and not a more prestigious name and wondering how bad is the BC Pogo merger.

146

Read it and weep.

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/03/nationwide_layoff_watch_king_s.php?show=comments#comments

big law sustained cuts= sallie mae collapse

Its supply and demand people. There's no work but a gut of young associates. The days of wining and dining are gone. There's also the issue that if tehse firms are laying off what they percieve to be good people, how can they look their mid-level associates in the eye when they are spending money on SA events. Sorry kids, but the good old days are gone.

Its supply and demand people. There's no work but a glut of young associates. The days of wining and dining are gone. There's also the issue that if tehse firms are laying off what they percieve to be good people, how can they look their mid-level associates in the eye when they are spending money on SA events. Sorry kids, but the good old days are gone.

Strange that firms would eliminate summer programs. Those programs seemed so necessary and useful. Good business.

Strange that firms would eliminate summer programs. Those programs seemed so necessary and useful. Good business.

Try the fed govt...amazingly interesting, challenging work, experienced attorneys willing to train/share, immense autonomy from day one, solid benefits, and decent compensation. Our agency will be hiring a lot of people over the next two years at least...apply, apply, apply, and keep applying...if you're interested.

It does not make sense to end summer associate programs, or the recruiting of new associates, entirely. Current compensation practices bear no relation to what the current economy will support, though. The way forward looks something like this:
• Law firms continue to have summer associate programs, but make the programs highly selective and hire only a small number of students. Firms supervise summer associates closely, evaluate the quality of their work thoroughly, and make 3L offers only to those who do top quality work.
• Firms pay summer associates enough to cover the summer sublet of a small apartment, and the cost of modest meals, but not much more.
• Firms delete social events and expensive meals from summer programs, except perhaps for a moderate farewell dinner at the end of the program.
• Firms hire 3Ls to work as associates, but pay them what a brand-new law graduate with little if any professional experience is really worth -- on the order of $35,000 to $45,000 per year to start, with retention, bonuses and salary increases tied closely to performance evaluations.
• Firms abandon uniform annual bonuses and lockstep pay increases based only on duration of employment. If associates do really good work, they get a bonus and a raise. If not, tough.

This may not sound much like what people expected when they applied to law school. But the BigLaw gravy train of wining and dining 2L summer associates, paying brand new 3L associates $160,000 per year, and paying uniform annual bonuses and salary increases based on duration of employment, ended with last fall's stock market crash and won't be back for a long time, if ever. That was then, this is now -- get used to it.

I am a 3L at Suffolk Law School.

So what kinds of practice areas lend themselves to small law?

147 -

MMM has traditionally paid above Atlanta market (yes, above K&S and A&B) for associates, and it has been in the top tier of the Daily Report Dozen of Atlanta firms (not near the bottom, that has been AGG et al.) When I was there quite a few of my fellow associates were expats from K&S, PG, A&B, KilStock and the like who had come because there were better litigation opportunities and MMM paid better.

I wasn't overly happy at MMM and am glad I left to start my own firm but I would hire the MMM litigation team over pretty much anybody in Atlanta.

158 having litigated against MMM (different lawyers different times) I would say that they are not only the worst litigators in the city but also the most unethical. When I get liquored up with my friends at other firms we laugh about MMM litigation. Awful awful awful. They may have a better than decent licensing/ transactional team (and therfore did very well for a few glorious years before the dotcom bust) but their litigators are the laughing stock of ATL.

Gonna have to agree with 159.

- atlanta litigator

158, where are you getting your info? 1998?

A&B and K&S start at 160 in Atlanta (if you're lucky enough to still be employed there!) as of 2009. MMM paid (past tense) 145 BEFORE their 2009 pay cut. Poser firm if there ever was one.

In 2007 MMM was paying 1st years 148 in Atlanta when K&S and A&B were paying 145. Don't know what happened after that. 3K was not a big deal but it was still above market.

But if the litigators were as bad as described not worth the reputation.

159, would you mind giving some examples? Would you mind giving some initials of attorneys? I'd like to know the details of these alleged missteps by MMM litigators.

22, 35, and 135 are right. There is nothing magical about having associates from every year. Once they start to bail in years 2-3 the numbers get skewed. How big a difference is there having a 4th year vs. a 6th year work on something? Besides, the idea that you can't get hired into BigLaw as a lateral is just false, and will likely become even falser. Is there a risk to the firm that they might not be able to find the perfect lateral when the market picks up? Sure. But that risk is a better one to take than paying hefty salaries to 20 associates who aren't doing any work or billing any hours.

157- there are a lot of practice areas that lend themselves to small firms. Basically anything that doesn't require a massive number of bodies. Big firms can market themselves as one-stop shops to big clients, because they have a bunch of departments - tax, corporate, litigation, etc. But except for the really big transactions, or a mondo bankruptcy, there aren't that many things that actually require a big firm.

Small firms are of two types - small general service firms, who market themselves to smaller businesses, and specialized boutiques who focus on a niche. The latter are often as good if not better than the big firms in their specialty.

There are boutiques in intellectual property (often focusing on a specific industry), litigation, regulatory, entertainment, trusts and estates, admiralty, and more.

114/128 - One way to find quality mid-sized and small firms is to look in smaller cities. Most areas with a metropolitan population of a few hundred thousand will have firms that are locally or regionally prominent. In those smaller markets, it's easier to figure out who the quality firms are. 160K will be hard to find, but 100-120K is out there in some markets. Or you can look for a highly specific practice niche where small and midsized firms may be regionally prominent.

157 - 165 is right. Also, small and mid-sized firms can do a lot of the same general kinds of work as biglaw, but on a smaller scale. Lots of litigation, corporate transactional, even M&A, just with smaller stakes and smaller deals. Environmental compliance, real estate transactional, and land use and development all scale down pretty well, although the latter two are slow in the current economic conditions. Not to wade into the ongoing biglaw vs. small law vs. government flame war, but one selling point of smaller and mid-sized firms is a much better shot at making partner than in biglaw. Partner comp is smaller, no doubt, but the ability to bring in clients and help run the firm is still there.

Law firms are the ultimate lagging indicator. Two years ago, as a 1L, I attended a presentation from some purported legal market expert. I asked if firms were slowing down hiring in anticipation of the coming recession. She looked utterly puzzled.

Now, when the recession is thawing, firms are cutting back hiring on associates that WON'T COME ON LINE FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS, and Latham is poaching bankruptcy rainmakers. Brilliant.

Kirkland is smart--they're grabbing M&A partners. They'll be glad in a couple of years.

ACTFACTLACK88 Antoine Walker

A thread on summer lunches would be nice. My firm is only allowing $30 per person for summer lunches and I would be curious if other firms are doing like-wise.

MMM as a litigation powerhouse? I have now heard it all. Wouldn't even consider them in the 2nd tier. No one even has heard of them outside of Atlanta.. what a joke.

-Atlanta attorney

Oh hilarious. I used to be at Sutherland and the firm actually had to institute a "no strip club" policy because it was a frequent outing for summer associates. I think it was just too hard for recruiting to reimburse the wads of singles spent by associates.

172

That was the sole redeeming quality for Sutherland recruiting -- the strip clubs in Atlanta! Otherwise, the place was a shithole with internal politics that were screwed up beyond comprehension.

I have never seen much connection between summer associate boondoggles and "training young lawyers." Maybe you get a sense of how someone handles him- or herself in social situations, but beyond that there isn't much substance, at least not in my experience.

I tink the point is being missed here. Since at least the mid-90s, firms competed for law students. Now they don't have to. That means the elite firms will fight for the top HYS grads, and every other firm will have an effectively unlimited supply of associates (first-year or otherwise) begging for jobs. There's no such thing as a free (summer) lunch.

MMM is a joke. They hired a total of 10 summer associates in good years. Who cares?

I wish more partners at Sutherland went on the strip club outings. Maybe there would be less leering in the halls. Then again they would have to drag their fat lazy asses a whole block to the Cheetah while the nearest paralegal or secretary is just down the hall.