Salary Cut Watch: Gardere Wynne Cuts Salaries that ‘Just Do Not Make Sense’
In March, we reported on layoffs at the mid-sized Texas firm, Gardere Wynne Sewell. Since everything is quieter in Texas, the firm confirmed the layoffs but declined to mention how many people were let go.
Today, Above the Law has learned that Gardere Wynne has also cut associate salaries. And the firm is not shy about it. Managing partner Steve Good provided Above the Law with this statement about the salary cuts:
As most law firms are recognizing, starting salaries for new associates that begin at $160,000 just do not make sense in the current economic environment, and probably did not make sense even before the downturn. Many clients, both ours and those of other law firms, have been upset with these salary levels and as a result have asked law firms to not use first or even second-year lawyers on their matters. That reaction is not healthy for the law firm, the client or the associate and the associate’s future development. We think that the changes that we are implementing are necessary to bring some economic rationality back to our associate compensation program, particularly in a state like Texas, where there is no state income tax and the cost of housing is among the lowest in the nation. Notwithstanding that, large law firms in Texas have been paying first-year associates the same base compensation as an associate living in Manhattan, and $20,000 more than a first-year associate in Atlanta, where the cost of living is similar - it simply makes no sense and we decided to stop.
Effective May 1st, the Gardere will reduce first year salaries to $145,000 and second year salaries to $150,000.
Clients are upset about the high price of junior attorneys? That’s great, junior attorneys have long been upset at clients that dump work on people at 4:00 p.m. on Friday and expect it to be turned around by first thing Monday morning. Surely, a middle ground will soon be forged where clients pay less and attorneys enjoy the fruit of nights and weekends. I’m holding my breath.
But for a firm like Gardere, it is hard to argue with the raw economics of the situation. If clients want this, and there are no reasonable options for attorneys to lateral away, than firms will pay what the market will bear. Unless something really interesting happens when salary cutting firms go out to recruit this fall, more firms could look to cut salaries.
Read the full Gardere statement after the jump.
GARDERE WYNNE — STATEMENT — SALARY REDUCTION
Gardere announced yesterday to our partners and associates that we are deferring the start date for our Fall 2009 associates until January 2010 and that those deferred will receive a $10,000 stipend. We also announced that the base compensation for our current first-year associates (generally the Class of 2008) would be reduced from $160,000 to $145,000, and that the base compensation for our current second-year associates will be set at $150,000. Although our fiscal year began on April 1, 2009, these reductions will be effective prospectively beginning May 1, 2009. For subsequent classes, the base compensation will be frozen at last year’s amounts. In addition, if an associate did not reach certain productivity targets last year, some portion of their base compensation will be deferred, with the opportunity to earn it back by the end of the year. As our fiscal year began on April 1, 2009, the changes applicable to the subsequent classes will be effective as of that date.
As most law firms are recognizing, starting salaries for new associates that begin at $160,000 just do not make sense in the current economic environment, and probably did not make sense even before the downturn. Many clients, both ours and those of other law firms, have been upset with these salary levels and as a result have asked law firms to not use first or even second-year lawyers on their matters. That reaction is not healthy for the law firm, the client or the associate and the associate’s future development. We think that the changes that we are implementing are necessary to bring some economic rationality back to our associate compensation program, particularly in a state like Texas, where there is no state income tax and the cost of housing is among the lowest in the nation. Notwithstanding that, large law firms in Texas have been paying first-year associates the same base compensation as an associate living in Manhattan, and $20,000 more than a first-year associate in Atlanta, where the cost of living is similar - it simply makes no sense and we decided to stop. We realize that we have made this decision in advance of any action taken by many of our competitors in Texas, and to some extent that was a function of our April 1, 2009 fiscal year (and new associate salary start date) requiring that a decision be made now. Many firms around the country are making the same or similar decisions, and we expect that as other firms approach their associate salary evaluation dates, they will come to the same conclusion. If not, we still think that we have made the correct business decision.
Stephen Good
Managing Partner
Gardere Wynne Sewell LLP
Earlier: Nationwide Layoff Watch: More From Texas
What is Texas Afraid Of?




Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
A poem I wrote for all laid off Lathamites. Don't get down. The world is your oyster and you'll come out of this for the better.
-------------------------------
Standing Tall
By LL
Sometimes the world looks perfect: Nothing to rearrange.
Sometimes you just, get a feeling like you need some kind of change.
No matter what the odds are this time, nothing’s going to stand in my way.
This flame in my heart, and a long lost friend.
Gives every dark street a light at the end.
Standing tall, on the wings of my dream.
Rise and fall, on the wings of my dream.
The rain and thunder. The wind and haze.
I’m bound for better days. It’s my life and my dream,
Nothing’s going to stop me now.
2200 sq ft and a Toyota.
Elie once again misses the mark by a mile. How is cutting the SALARY of a first year of any benefit to the CLIENT? Clients only care about billing rates, and Of course, the memo and Elie's analysis don't even address the question of whether rates are being reduced in line with the salary reduction, or whether the partners are just pocketing the difference.
2200 sq ft and a Toyota.
"Since we have never attracted top talent, it doesnt make sense to pay salaries as if we do"
Right with you, random texas firm whose name I already do not recall!
ECONOMY: nom nom nom.
BIGLAW: doh!
I don't see any mention of reducing billing rates for first or second year associates (you know, to make the clients happy) - just cutting their pay.
"Clients are upset about the high price of junior attorneys? That's great, junior attorneys have long been upset at clients that dump work on people at 4:00 p.m. on Friday and expect it to be turned around by first thing Monday morning. Surely, a middle ground will soon be forged where clients pay less and attorneys enjoy the fruit of nights and weekends. I'm holding my breath."
-- Maybe the best thing you have ever written Elie - not that you have set the bar very high.
And TX firms pay (or used to pay) 15 K more to 1st years than Atlanta firms, not 20K more (160K v. 145K).
TTTexas.
Making $145k in Texas with no state income tax and lower COL is still a far better deal than making $160k in Manhattan.
Now that you have come to that realization, go to all your clients and apologize for ripping them off all these years.
Isn't Gardere the disease you get from swimming at the beaches around Galveston or drinking the water in Houston?
Our mediocre clients prefer mediocre work by mediocre attorneys. Don't yours?
Gardere Wynne for the loss!
#11 is correct.
Also, never heard of this firm. Post something when it's a top-tier firm.
Whoa, wait a minute. So if I was an associate at this TTTexas firm, and I took out a mortgage to pay for my 3500 sq. ft. wife, could I have some sort of claim if I relied upon this firm's promise to pay me $160k as a first year associate?
2:
That poem sucks. It sounds like the lyrics to some lousy 80's movie theme song. If your legal skills are as bad as your poetry, then it isn't surprising why you are a former Lathamite.
Whoa, wait a minute. So if I was an associate at this TTTexas firm, and I took out a mortgage to pay for my 3500 sq. ft. wife, could I have some sort of claim if I relied upon this firm's promise to pay me $160k as a first year associate?
Why would clients complain about salary levels? They wouldn't seem to care about salary levels. Rates, sure. But rates are a function of many things, including building costs and *gasp* profits per partner.
Why would the clients single out associate salaries, or otherwise care about a law firm's internal cost structure?
The post says it's a mid-sized Texas firm. Gardere is a big deal in the Texas market. And yeah, 11 and 16 are right--it's sitll better here.
Mr. Good should get off us associates...espesc. considering we got off his mom last night.
Should have moved to TEXAS!!!
This would never happen in Houston!
"Clients are upset about the high price of junior attorneys? That's great, junior attorneys have long been upset at clients that dump work on people at 4:00 p.m. on Friday and expect it to be turned around by first thing Monday morning."
Last I checked, clients payed attorneys, not the other way around.
Sure it sucks, but in a buyers market you can ask for better service at lower prices.
Has a client ever actually complained about the salary of associates? I find this very hard to believe.
I may have been dissatisfied about the price of law school, but I never complained about how much the junior staff at the law school was getting paid.
I think a more honest statement from Gardere Wynne would have read "Many partners, especially at our subpar law firm with its mediocre revnenues, have been upset with these salary levels." They have right and reason to cut salaries, but it's ludicrous to blame this on clients.
How the fuck is this news? Some no-name firm cuts salaries and we're supposed to be interested? If I send you some info about some two-bit insurance defense shop that has 10 attorneys cutting salaries or laying people off, will you post that too?
Shit, is Garden of Crap or whatever the name is even really a law firm?
STOP WASTING OUT TIME ELIE YOU FAT FUCK.
Gardere really Schruted it "even before the downturn."
Andy: I really 'Schruted' it.
Michael: What?
Andy: 'Schruted' it. It's just this thing that people say around your office all the time. Like, when you screw something up in a really irreversible way, you 'Schruted' it. I don't know where it comes from though. Do you think it comes from Dwight Schrute?
Michael: I don't know. Who knows how words are formed.
Firm clients are refusing to use first year or second year attorneys?! They would rather pay for a third year attorney who still doesn't know sh*t but has a substantially higher billable rate?
How about not paying ridiculous partner rates for the partner to attend that cushy ass depostion in Boston that a trained monkey could manage.
TTTexas sucks anyway.
18/19 - Your reliance on this promise sounds very reasonable, and surely this reliance has caused you detriment. I believe you might have a Promise Sorry or Stop All claim.
Seiously, I'm sure the clients are sleeping much better at night knowing that some first year with $200k in student loans and a baby on the way is taking a hit so that Stephen Good can make $1,015,000 this year instead of $1,000,000.
TEXAS IS IRRELEVANT
Do these "upset clients" really think their fees will be reduced if firms pay associates less?
Well, I guess the party's over.
- 3L
Although Gardere is not a peer firm, I give it much deserved kudos for being the latest firm to adopt my hybrid tough love package. I am glad to see other firms acknowledge the ridiculous starting salaries that are nonsense in this economic tsunami. Bravo Stephen, you made this old legal pioneer smile.
Awesome 27
If everyone on Earth I know didn't live in the NY/NJ area, I would move to Houston in a second. I hate being "rich" according to Obama and the tax code, yet living in a friggen shoebox and having nothing left after paying off loans.
Am I the only one who thinks the Dealbreaker girl is really hot. I guess you have to be into Asian girls, but I reject the populist cry to remove the ad and, indeed, wish it was downloadable.
Boil your water before you drink it and you will not get Gardere.
Lower my salary and I will go find something else to do. It is still possible. I promise. I'll take my clients with me.
Your clients will soon find that they don't want to give you any work because you only have crappy lawyers left.
Elie -
Usually I'm with you, Big Guy, but as a forrmer GC, I think you are wrong on this one. The law is a service profession. Clients are why law firms exist. If I ask a lawyer at 4 pm on Friday to work over the weekend on a matter, chances are good that I'm also working over that same weekend. I may be asking you to do something that will help my company make money. I will use the money to pay your bill. I may be asking you to do something that will determine whether the company stays in business, which is also important to you and your firm. Do not believe for a second that I will ever tell my CEO that the deal cannot be done because the lawyers want to "enjoy the fruit of nights and weekends." Do believe that I will find another law firm that wants to provide the company with the service it may need.
3, that was excellent.
11 is right, but the question is still whether the firm is really going to pass these savings on to clients or just pump up ppp. Anyone wanna take bets?
"Has a client ever actually complained about the salary of associates?"
No, its one of the dumbest myths involved in the legal profession. Clients care about their bill, they couldn't give a $^ about the internal affairs of their provider. Hint, ever had your roof repaired, your house painted, a plumbing issue? Did you care about how much Juan Pablo was paid by TypiCorp., Inc. or did you care about what you were billed by TypiCorp.? The latter, eh!
The other stupid myth is the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 crap. Here's a hint to the mathematically challenged, if you make more than your salary and overhead, you're a profit. It doesn't matter if its 1/3, 1/10 or 99/100. God this profession is full of idiots.
Please block PE from posting.
I do like his direct style. "We decided to stop."
Well, there you go.
40.
"If I ask a lawyer at 4 pm on Friday to work over the weekend on a matter, chances are good that I'm also working over that same weekend."
This is such BS, and you know it.
28, Yes. Clients will bar junior people from a deal, but still demand that a partner attend a closing or a depo where he will do and say nothing. They will demand that no paralegals bill on a case but still lose their sh*t when a narrative shows that a junior lawyer made some binders. They will forbid librarians to bill but still ban the use of Lexis searches on a project. They ban team meetings and billed internal discussions and are shocked when their lawyers dont seem to be all uniformly aware of their urgent, redundant, and complicated demands. And the bill is always higher as a result.
Imina bust Partner Emeritus in his cracker face, but first my baby dadda gonna raise his taxes to 100%.
12,
Hear hear!!
Client Troll
I have to say we (a Fortune 50) have received many splendid apologies when we shifted work away to other more reasonably priced firms but never an apology for paying the lawyers too much money. One can only wonder if this increased sensitivity to my feelings will result in staff pay cuts as well. I hope not.
34 -
STFU
You're done here.
#4
The firm said clients complain, not Elie.
Imina bust Partner Emeritus in his cracker face, but first my baby dadda gonna raise his taxes to 100%.
34 (PE) --> Fuck you, man, fuck you. You ruined it. Just give it up. You made the most absurdly jackass post yesterday.
Crawl back into your fucking hole and die, because you will never be considered relevant and interesting again.
Time to become "Commenter Emeritus," the only caveat being you are NOT discharged from commenting with honor.
OMG, 52 for the win!
Commenter Emeritus, indeed.
PE definitely jumped the shark yesterday and he should be retired for real.
But a serious question-does anyone know of any large firm that has lowered billing rates in connection with cutting associate salaries. I have yet to hear any info about this.
22 nailed it.
Why are law firms (and Partner Emeritus is a symbol of this) always like 2 years behind the times? The crisis is letting up and things will be OK by the end of the year. If firms were gonna cut salaries, they should have done so awhile ago. 6-12 months from now, all these salary cutters are gonna like idiots and will once again raise salaries to the "nonsensical" 160k.
Law firms are the ultimate LAGGING indicators of everything -- lagging in innovation, lagging in business models, lagging in management expertise, etc. The fact that law firms are finally reacting to the crisis suggests that the crisis, by definition, is over!
Let me know when law firms raise salaries to 190. That will mean that a new crisis has started.
Clients, like the CFO of a good sized company who has worked there for 15 or 20 years and makes $200k or so, object to first year associates making $160k, but are find and dandy about partners making millions? Yeah, bullshit. Which of those is really more perverse?
The consulting firm to many of the large law firms is Hildebrant. If you check its annual client advisory, http://www.hildebrandt.com/Publications/Pages/PublicationDetail.aspx?PublicationGuid=951f5cff-d35c-4426-aaec-1c60dfd9e805, you will find that one of the top four issues it is advising law firms to address in the coming year is associate compensation. They are not advising an increase in salaries.
Clients, like the CFO of a good sized company who has worked there for 15 or 20 years and makes $200k or so, object to first year associates making $160k, but are fine and dandy about partners making millions? Yeah, bullshit. Which of those is really more perverse?
As most law schools are recognizing, starting tuition for new students that begins at $43,000 just do not make sense in the current economic environment, and probably did not make sense even before the downturn.
We think that the changes that we are implementing are necessary to bring some economic rationality back to our tuition program, particularly in a state like Texas, where our faculty pay no state income tax and the cost of housing is among the lowest in the nation.
Notwithstanding that, marginal private schools have been charging the same tuition as elite schools - it simply makes no sense and we decided to stop. Many schools around the country are making the same or similar decisions, and we expect that as other schools approach their tuition evaluation dates, they will come to the same conclusion. If not, we still think that we have made the correct business decision.
You guys may not like PE's old-fashioned style, but when he's right, he's right.
Ain't nobody cutting T's money
Can someone please burdog this one for me? Thanks.
2,000 hours at $160k is only $80/hour. (obv not counting benefits, taxes in this back of envelope).
There is a whole lot of margin, oak paneled lobbies and corner office rents built into that 1st year billing rate that could be cut if these firms actually cared about their a) clients or their b) employees.
Before people get all free market on me, I don't think there is anything wrong with not caring about a or b, but it is BS to use that clients as an excuse to work a little more margin out of employees.
Also, I agree that $160k is a lot to pay a 24-year-old junior associate, but $1 mill, is a lot to pay a 44-year-old partner for basically selling his time.
To 54, and all the others who keep saying that (or asking if) firms are not dropping rates.... it's happening all over. Just because the rate sheet isn't updated, does not mean that every single in house counsel is reaching out to every single firm they do business with and saying, in essence, I will not accept this year's rate increase. Or, give me an alternative fee proposal/structure. Or, sing for your food and complete this obnoxious RFP that we're sending to 20 other firms so we can treat your valuable service like a true commodity and pick it up from the lowest bidder.
And firms are responding...beause they have to. I'm not saying that's reason to cut associate pay, but don't be so naive to believe this is all opportunistic and flowing to the PPP bottom line. Ask a partner in your firm how rates are holding up, and see what they say.
at least these idiots recognize that they never should have tried to match NYC salaries to begin with.
61 -- not about his "style." About his posting the most absurdly stupid fucking post ever yesterday, and completely showing himself to be a dumbass he crossed over from being amusing (I *liked* his style, btw) to just a total ass who cares more about his online persona than any semblance of civility.
So he should go fuck himself. Fuck himself in the ear.
45 -
What do you know? If something drops on me at 4 pm on a Friday, and it needs to be turned around over the weekend, it's pretty damn important. Maybe it's a TRO from a competitor claiming patent infringement. Maybe it's a hostile takeover. Perhaps it's a subpeona from a grandstanding state attorney general. Maybe it's an industrial accident at one of the plants. It could be anyone of a thousand things that could adversely affect the company if not attended to immediately. My CEO may not be around, but you can be damn sure that I will be, and I expect my outside counsel to be there with me. Perhaps one day, if you're lucky, you will understand.
"Many clients, both ours and those of other law firms, have been upset with these salary levels..."
This is incorrect.
Clients are upset about high legal bills, not associate salaries. This is a different issue. The reason that clients do not want first years to work on matters is because first years tend to be inefficient (not because clients think that first years get paid too much -- why would clients care, so long as the work is done ably and efficiently). Clients do not want to spend $10,000 of their own dollars to get a beginning associate up to speed.
The solution to the problem that Stephen Good (never heard of him) identifies is better delegation. Rather than "here's a contract and please think about all potential legal issues," give more structured and focused assignments. This would reduce inefficiencies and, in turn, client legal bills.
It is not clear how/why reducing associate salaries (while keeping associate billing rates the same) is going to keep clients happy when client legal bills are staying the same.
Elie, your customers have spoken. Block PE from posting.
I'm sure clients *aren't* outraged at the $1000/hour partner rates, so it's a good thing Gardere Wynne didn't cut partner salaries. Yep, suuuure, makes sense.
Greedy assholes.
can we please block PE from ever commenting again? He says the same stupid shit over and over again. blah blah blah adopt my hybrid tough love blah blah blah. i am a douche bag blah blah blah. i have no idea what i am talking about blah blah blah.
give it a rest already. your schtick is tired, stupid, boring, old, annoying and repetitive. STFU already
Well. That suck. But they don't have to be so damn gleeful about it.
Elie:
Can we copy and paste #4's comment in every post that you do about salary cuts (sans the gratuitous first sentence). It needs to be repeated each and every time a salary cut is announced.
This firm may be the worst in pretending that clients somehow care about compensation levels. They don't. If a firm chooses to pay a first-year Associate $160,000, the client could give two shits less if the billing rate is reasonable.
Maybe it's a less profitable proposition for firms to lower billing rates. But it's such transparent nonsense that firms keep peddling this myth about compensation. It's about the rates, stupid.
You all should be thinking about me more often.
74: thank you. I tried to make the same point in post #69.
43=49=52=53=67=71=72
I'm sure I missed a couple.
67:
Quit whining. If you don't like his posts, don't read them. I actually thought his post was spot on. Now if you'd do us a favor and either disappear or develop an avatar so we can skip you, we'll all be better.
Now go back to writing garbage poetry to help displaced Lathamites get through their below market severance.
74: thank you. I tried to make the same point (although perhaps did not do so as forcefully).
-69
Good call 65. *Everyone's* rates have dropped -- they just take the form of write-offs and discounts. That's why so few associates make partner: they don't understand business, and just multiply their billables by their rate and assume that much money comes in. (Putting aside the issue of realization and time value of collections).
If individuals like Mr. Good attempt to scapegoat some form of associate greed/fault as the reason behind their inability to manage their firms finances, I will go Columbine on their asses...full on trenchcoat mafia. The majority of my friends are currently preparing to be a lost generation of attorneys with staggering debt and the promise of a tax happy establishment ready to descend on any earnings they may be able to scrape together. Watch your words Stevie...we are on the brink.
In the past 15 years, Gardere has hired one associate from Yale, and none from Harvard, Stanford, NYU. Columbia, and Chicago.
Its a regional firm dominated by SMU law grads. Texas firms that have national reach, BB, VE, FJ, and maybe BG and AKurth are probably immune for a while unless NYC national firms start cutting.
Captain Canuck wants to know if you would rather be paid full salary in Canadian Dollars or take a 20% pay cut?
Bay Street is Awesome!
I find the calls for censorship from 43=49=52=53=67=71=72, far more offensive than anything PE wrote.
21 - Maybe "mid-size" is all it takes to be a big deal in Texas.
I am hardly moved by the "offended" posters over my commentary about the fallen associate. I have little sympathy for cowards that decide to take their life rather than face life walking tall. I feel sorrow for the fallen associate's family and if you read my post carefully, I hoped the family would not blame the Obama administration for the associate's death. End of story. Move on.
77=84=PE
51, you're a ****.
You want a simple answer to your question about Gardere's billing rates? Easy. Gardere is big in Texas on bankruptcies. All bankruptcy fees that are paid from the estate have to be filed with the court and are thus public record. If there's any substantial change in the billing rates, the firm must also file a motion regarding those changes. Elie, go on PACER, find a bankruptcy Gardere is doing, and watch for next month's bill to come out. You'll know right away if they've decided to bill less for their associate's time.
And I will bet you any amount of money you want those rates don't move an inch. And those of you who claim write-off's, etc. are what's going on? I can guarentee that's not the case either. They're just adjusting associate salaries to keep PPP as close to level as possible despite the market slowdown.
-- A BigLaw bankruptcy associate / former journalist with a brain
90th and the latest to say, Elie what the heck?
"Effective May 1st, the Gardere will reduce first year salaries"
Who is the Gardere and are they related to "the Jimmy?"
What's a smu?
After reading the comments, I find it hard to believe that many of those posting here have ever practiced law in a big firm, or they fail to recognize how a firm works. Granted, what Mr. Good should have written is "Many clients, both ours and those of other law firms, have been upset with THE BILLING RATES OF FIRST YEAR ASSOCIATES THAT ARE NECESSARY TO SUPPORT A SALARY OF $160,000, and as a result have asked law firms to not use first or even second-year lawyers on their matters." That is the heart of the matter. No firm is going to pay an associate $160,000 and bill that associate out at $100.00 per hour. Clients know that, and they know that the rates they pay are in direct relation to the associate's salary. Third and fourth year associates are more efficient, and there is not such a huge difference between their billing rates and the rates of the first years. It makes more sense to the client to ask the firm to use the more experienced associate.
"Clients are upset about the high price of junior attorneys? That's great, junior attorneys have long been upset at clients that dump work on people at 4:00 p.m. on Friday and expect it to be turned around by first thing Monday morning. Surely, a middle ground will soon be forged where clients pay less and attorneys enjoy the fruit of nights and weekends. I'm holding my breath. "
What a load of crock. Plenty of people in other professions do the exact same thing. Perhaps they should all be ridiculously overpaid too.
And what about "than firms will pay what the market will bear." Than??
PE -
Thanks for reminding everyone that this whole "economic tsunami," as you call it, hit the economy on January 20, 2009. Before then everything was just humming along. It's all Obama's fault. Keep telling everyone that. Don't back down. Continue to dazzle everyone with your brilliance.
PE: You have offended a clown.
You suck.
Partner Emeritus is a douche. 'Nough said.
PE - you never were, nor are you now, entertaining.
97=98=all the other PE-bashing comments. Give up, man, you're both douchebags.
99 - I am pretty sure PE has proven himself to be a much bigger (full) douchebag than any of the bashers.
Hey 82, Thanks for the info on this irrelevant firm. Now, what exactly is SMU?
Assuming some of you people are accurately describing the current rate market, what has been identified is why talented small-law is going to grow baby grow. Big-time lawyers in small-time practices have less to worry about--less overhead and sure-as-hell not paying a 25 year old kid $160,000 a year to learn how to draft a dismissal.
What's the problem here? The guy is saying the associates at Whatitsface in TX should not be paid the same salary as a Skadden associate in NYC. This should be obvious. Isn't this how just about every other profession in America works? Law firms are managed in such a retarded way it's depressing.
99,
97 here. WRONG! This is my only other comment, douche.
HERE'S A NEWSFLASH ELIE - YOU SHOULD BE ASKING THE SALARY-REDUCING FIRMS WHETHER AS A DIRECT RESULT (I.E. PROXIMATE CAUSATION) THEY WILL BE REDUCING STANDARD BILLING RATES BY THE SAME PERCENTAGE, AND CALLING OUT B.S. ANSWERS !!
97=98=104.
103- After the second year, base comp at Skadden and base comp at a Texas firms aren't even close. It's not like Gardere is on a "NY scale." And that disregards bonuses. Not saying you're wrong, just an FYI.
Anyone have odds on BB, VE, FJ, AK, HB, etc dropping within the next week?
When salaries froze, the billing rates still increased along with class year. Lowering salaries is probably justified, but if you are doing it under the pretense of satisfying client concerns, billing rates should drop too.
1-109 = 109. You are all me.
SMU = Southern Methodist University
I LOVE P.E. I think he's wonderfully offensive. You losers only get upset when he offends you.
P.E. forever!
I just can't believe PE can't come up with anything new to say. I mean he must spend half of every day day trolling this blog, and he can't come up with one fresh comment? God you're a failure PE.
111 = PE's taint.
LOL @ 113. So true.
Keep it coming P.E. You may just be a law student, but you are quite good at getting under the skin of the overpaid associates. Half of the retarded posts on this blog are about you!
Each time I get to see PE's avatar, I puke a little in my mouth. With PE's outrageous post yesterday, I literally puked all over my desk. Please get this retard out of this site. He's always been and will always be as relevant to this blog as a turd to the toilets. There's a time for it to be there, but you really need to flush the whole thing when it's starting to rot.
Are all of you that complain about PE really that dense?
Do any of you really not get that PE is obviously not a partner/former partner, but, in each and every post, is an individual engaging in SATIRE?
He's so offensive/funny because he accurately reflects extreme views held by partners that would never actually read/post on this blog.
I've been hoping that most of you get it, and are arguing with PE as an outlet for your own frustrations with the dozens of PE clones at biglaw firms. But so many of the outraged comments lately have expressed nothing but blind outrage at his audacity in posting, rather than the fact that so many partners share the satired opinions.
Seriously, does anyone really not get it?
Did any of the people that don't get it really graduate from law school and pass the bar exam?
Some of his posts are boring and repetitive, but I give PE major props for taking the time to post. At least 1 in 10 of his posts is really witty and terribly scathing to the partner class.
Thanks 110. You might want to try developing a sense of humor. Love, 101.
I AM SO SICK OF FINALS THAT I AM POSTING ON ATL. REPEATEDLY. A NEW LOW.
117 -- . Everyone gets it, but when the satire is just NOT FUNNY, it's time to stop the joke. He's just pathetic, really. Who needs to hear the same joke three times on each thread here?
The ship be sinking...
117 -- holy shit, I can't believe it! Seriously?!?
No you dumbass, the problem is that the douchebag who posts, OH MY GOD pretending to be an emeritus partner crossed a line yesterday that even commenters on ATL could not deal with. And with that, he took a fairly amusing clever avatar (um, yeah, I think we get it) and turned it into somebody being a real true asshole.
What the hell is a Gardere? I'm from Dallas and I've never heard of it
117 = monumentally stupid.
105 - see 65 and grow up and get some sense.
AND STOP YELLING.
Douche.
92, you are the one who appears never to have practiced in a law firm (or not to have practiced in one for long). When I started as a first year, starting salaries were still $125k. Yet partners raised billing rates annually without raising salaries (and had done so for several years straight). I'm not talking about "x is now a second year and no longer a first year, so x's rate has now increased to second-year level"; I'm talking about "last year it cost you x/hr for a first year; this year it will cost you 1.1x/hr for a first year." Zero relation to salary in that move.
Obviously you can take an extreme example where the rate literally doesn't support a salary but that's obviously not what's at issue here. And as everyone has pointed out, mention of reduced billing rates has been noticeably absent from any of these firm communications re salary freezes/reductions. (BTW: the fact that clients are demanding alternative fee arrangements or rate cuts on a per-retention basis is not the same thing as a firm lowering its book rates across the board (as this firm has done with salaries).)
124-
See 89. It's just not true. And there's proof out there.
I interviewed at Gardere years ago, and received an offer. It was for less than I was already receiving at my firm, and Gardere sought me out (not that I'm a notable lawyer, but they were looking for mid-level chemical patent attorneys, and there aren't that many of us).
When I asked why the salary was lower than I was already earning, they pointed out (as did the managing partner in his memo) that Texas doesn't have state taxes.
This has always pissed me off. Most firms base associate salaries on the rule of three (one third overhead, one third salary, one third profit). Gardere, and at least one other Texas firm, pay one third less 7.5%, the amount the associate doesn't pay in taxes.
Why should the firm take the 7.5%? Why can't the associate get the 7.5%? In my humble opinion, this is the main reason Texas firms suck.
In any event, I note that Stephen Good says that the trend toward higher associate salaries has not made any sense. One could (and should) say the same thing about big-law partnership draws. They have had a meteoric rise over the past ten years.
Although associate compensation has increased, it has not increased in such a way that it has skewed the rule of three. Associates have just had to justify a higher billing rate to accompany a higher salary. Of course, for each dollar in increased revenue due to the higher billing rate, the partners also received a dollar.
I was a non-equity member at a 500 attorney firm until recently. I went to more membership meetings than I care to think about where the entire meeting concerned how to raise income per equity member. The justification was that we had to do so to attract talented lateral equity members.
I am convinced that firms have decided to stop promoting from within, and to only look for greedy partners from other firms with books of business.
In the old days (i.e., when I started practicing), there was one tier of partnership, clients were firm clients, firms didn't have to advertise or compete for clients, and partnership meant that you had loyalty to the firm.
Today, in addition to full partners, you have non-equity and of counsel positions. Instead of firm clients, you have fiefdoms where equity members fight each other and associates to be billing attorney. Firms have to compete viciously with other firms for the few clients that are out there. And partners have no loyalty to each other, let alone to their associates and staff.
I am sick and tired of hearing how a firm lays off support staff, but won't cut partnership draws. A secretary makes relatively little, and lives largely paycheck to paycheck, while a partner at big-law makes at least 600,000, and in some cases, makes up to 2,000,000. The partners may each save $1-5K in income per secretary that is put out to pasture.
I have too much respect for my secretary than to put her out on the street, with nothing but a small severance package to reward her for the milions of times I asked her to stay late and she did, to go over and above the call of duty to make me look good, for the thousands of inadvertent typos she caught, just so I can make an extra few thousand dollars. Big law partners should be ashamed of themselves.
What's even worse is that many of these partners are Democrats, who have always said they don't mind spreading the wealth around (apparently until it's their wealth that is being spread around).
I'm looking forward to the day when a managing partner sends out a memo that says the following:
During the past ten years, we equity partners were able to make ever increasing partnership draws, thanks to clients who were immune to increases in billing rates, and thanks to the sacrifice all of our associates made, working 2300 billable hour years.
This is the worst economic climate in at least the past 20 years, but we expect that the climate will improve. Since we partners took all the profit in the good times, we will take the loss in the down times. There is no reason to believe that associates and staff, all of whom show up for work every day and work harder than could ever be expected of folks in non-legal professions, should bear the brunt of this economic crisis.
For this reason, starting immediately, partnership draws will be reduced for those partners who simply cannot make enough rain to keep their associates busy. Associates in practice areas with sufficient work will be asked to share work with associates in less productive practice areas. If all of the associates, on average, bill less than 1800 hours, so be it. Enjoy the extra time with your family, but don't be surprised that when our workloads pick up, it will be business as usual - we will go back to expecting 2300 billable hour years just as before the economic crisis.
Would it be that hard to do? Would it be too much of a sacrifice to make only $500,000 a year instead of $600,000 a year? Would it be too much to ask that rainmakers be loyal to the firm that provided them the platform to make rain, and paid for all the conferences they attended, as well as sporting events and other enjoyable client development activities, instead of billing hours like the rest of the partners?
Big law deserves to fail. And if things don't change, I have no doubt it will.
125 -
Law students like you should not pretend to be associates, you only confirm that you have no idea what's going on in the real world. Your post is nonsensical. You are posting anonymously, so you should be able to tell us the name of your fictional firm, which according to your post, has not raised first year salaries "for several years straight," but has continued to raise billing rates. This firm must be the most profitable one the country, since it has mastered holding down its costs "for several years straight" while raising its rates. I am sure that we would recognize the name, so just tell us.
Go back to studying for your first year finals.
127 -
Too long.
Didn't read.
Get your own blog.
Don't mess with Texas!
Latham will be lowering its salaries for incoming stubs. It does not makes sense to have 3 classes at 160.
92 -
But he didn't write that clients were upset about the billing rates and the memo doesn't say anything about lower rates to clients. Sure that might be happening with discounts that are being worked out on an individual basis but who knows. Until law firms drastically cut first year billing rates, clients are never going to want to use them.
Does anyone know if they plan on cutting billing rates officially?
128, please practice your reading comprehension. My post did not say or imply that my firm still starts associates at $125k (which appears to be what you've inferred -- but your response was 80% innuendo so it's hard to identify your specific miscomprehension(s)). It certainly has raised associate salaries, almost annually, over the past 4 years. But prior to that, salaries were at $125k for several years straight and at $95k for many years straight before that. As was the case with just about every AmLaw 100 law firm.
Yet my firm (and many others) raised billing rates annually throughout the early 2000s -- whether they were raising associate salaries that particular year or not. This is no great secret. Billing rate increases have seriously outpaced associate salary increases over the last decade (and that's not just the result of jacking up billing rates 20% in a given year when associate salaries went up 15%). This is one of the reasons for the PPP explosion of the last decade.
BTW (since you're clearly so dense, 128), 132=125.
-132
What a bunch of goddamn commies!
No state income tax in Texas...why the fuck do you think we moved there?!?!? Because we liked lovely Houston?
"Oh, there's no income tax so you don't need to pay as much."
I'm moving to the Cayman Islands.
Stephen Good is nothing but a whiner and cry baby. if you want to cut salaries, then do it. Don't whine about salaries in an email. He implies he had to raise in the past but nobody made him do it. it was his choice to raise pay to top tier base salaries for a fourth tier firm. but if it makes him feel better, he's not the only fool out there.
PARTNER EMERITUS vs. ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS:
Let's settle this once and for all...
Regardless of whether you find them unoriginal, PE's comments > 20-30 people complaining about PE's comments. He posts 1-3x per thread. Let it be and stop unnecessarily adding clutter to the thread with your complaints, which if anything, are worse offenders of the rule against triteness.
However, if you choose to proceed and vocalize your opposition against PE, at least develop an avatar (or at least resurrect Trophy Wife) and plan your attack, creatively.
Just over ten percent of this firm's lawyers are T14 grads. Most have never heard of it. This firm had no business paying what it did anyway.
136 - I did that. Remember "Partner Em-a-ritus?" But ATL deleted my account. Which is why I think PE is someone at ATL.
While I agree with what most of you are saying about associate/partner/staff salaries, Gardere is a different animal.
Trust me on this: Gardere actively recruits students from the lowest ranked schools in Texas, namely Thurgood Marshall (Is this even ABA accredited???). While this may be in an effort to increase their diversity, (if you are a white male from a prestigious law school - Gardere's not interested in you) it is sure to take a toll on the quality of work that these clients may end up seeing. And on the work that the partners end up fixing. I think Gardere was smart to decrease associate pay.
As a client, I agree that the partners blaming the salary cuts on the clients is a cop-out. However, it is simply the flip-side of the partners blaming the rate increases on the associates. It is always someone else's fault, but either way the reality is that they need to protect profits. But make no mistake, the rationale used by most firms for increases in rates was that they needed to increase rates to be able to generate sufficient revenue to attract top "talent" - both associates and lateral partners. So, there is indeed a connection between salary and clients' complaints, but the memo is just skipping a step.
138 -- PE is LAT?!?
141 - Well I don't know. I just know that when I created the fake PE in order confuse his message and make him look stupid (which was pretty creative I thought) ATL deleted my account. Twice. First I was Partner Emeritis, then I was Emaritus. Both were deleted by the esteemed ATL crew. Sort of makes you think PE must be someone at ATL, doesn't it?
Does anyone like workin at a law firm? Seemz like everywun just bitches about workin at the stupid head law firms. If you are a lawyer aren't you just someone's bitch your whole life....what's up with that? Seems dumb. why are lawyers always assholes in the movies?
ahhh, farted.
TTTexas smelled it, guess the dealt it.
PE is totally krapping up this internets site
I doubt it 142. Your user profile has to be unique and not just to impersonate someone else. PE probably a law student.
144 - And ATL enforces that?
It turns out that Partner Emeritus is not a partner at all, but rather a one legged dildo salesman peddling his deceptive wares atop from his rocket powered tricycle
146 - I knew it!
125/132 -
If I misunderstood your post, it is because you haven't finished your first year legal writing course and learned how to write in clear declarative sentences. Okay, so now you contend that your fictional firm had not raised first year salaries BEFORE you arrived "for several years straight," but had consistently raised its billing rates for said first years during that time. Leaving aside the question of how you knew what the firm was doing with its billing rates before you arrived, we can easily settle this if you just reveal the name of your fictional firm. What are you afraid of?
Good luck with your first year exams, you'll need it.
92
139, Thanks, but I already knew this firm wasn't interested in me, because they lowered their salary.
The comments that pointed out that the article mixed-and-matched associate salaries and billing rates are correct - clients aren't interested in how much the firm pays associates. (Really. You may care deeply, but the client doesn't.)
But clients do care about the rates they pay, not just the total bill. They don't want to pay $300 and hour or more for someone who probably doesn't know how to find the courthouse. They will pay high BigLaw rates for attorneys they think are worth it, which means experienced ones who they hope will be both effective and efficient.
Just because you are smart and graduated from super-duper school and have lots of loans doesn't mean you are actually worth $400 an hour to a client. Welcome to what is called "the market."
92/148, you are missing the point that most on this thread have understood. 125/132 may have expressed himself poorly. But this memo skips an important step as others have said. And that may well be on purpose.
Clients don't give a shit about associate salaries. They DO care about billing rates. This firm and others may well be cutting salaries to enable a cut in the rates they bill clients for associate work. But they haven't said that, and with firms placing PPP above absolutely everything else during this recession, I wouldn't just assume it.
Without a corresponding decrease in billing rates, salary cuts are all about PPP and have nothing to do with client retention/satisfaction. Of the firms that have cut salaries, I haven't seen a single one state that they'e doing it to enable a drop in billing rates. Oversight? Probably not.
Yes, yes, some clients end up getting billed less because of increased write-offs and other measures. So, what? Wouldn't be necessary to engage in these practices if firms just dropped the rates a bit across the board.
There BETTER be a corresponding drop in billng rates or other measures to decrease what the clients pay. If I was a client, I'd actually be upset at salary CUTS that exclusively benefit the Partners. The savings better be passed along to me in some way or another.
102: Agree, agree, agree. Small firms are going to continue to be the big benefactor of the current economic climate. As a laid-off associate who has been in the job market for a couple of months now, the only firms that are hiring right now are small firms, filled with quality lawyers, who have seen an increase in a demand for their services.
These firms are better positioned to cater to clients' desire for flexible billing arrangements, and just as important, lack a lot of the bereaucratic overhead that make downward pressure on billing rates unsustainable. I have a feeling were going to see an increase in botique firms across practice areas. A profitable practice group could be just as successful as a stand alone firm. The legal world has become much smaller with the rise in the internet and virtual business models. One stop shopping for all a client's legal services is no longer so desirable.
PARTNER HERE-- Please understand that there is a difference b/w an employee and a shareholder. Its labor v. capital. Don't you understand that if you are not worth your salary then every dime you receive is welfare? Do you really expect partners to hand out welfare checks each month to associates?
Please grow up.
154: Mr. Partner. I get that. However, do you really expect clients to pay your outrageously high billing rate for all its legal services? Certainly, in certain situations, they will pay your $550/hr. But your billing rate is unsustainable unless you have a strong group of associates who you can pass work to at a lower billing rate. Salaries for associates should come down, but so should across-the-board billing rates. Giving discounts, reduced rates, etc. is just firm management lying to themselves about their profit projections for the coming year.
154, duh. Just don't pretend it's client driven.
154 here-- Most associates are not worth the time or trouble at any rate for any type of sophisticated work. In any event, my rate is irrelevant to the discussion. The issues are: do I need you? and what are you worth? Most firms can survive without associates--don't forget that.
157, you truly don't get it. The ASSOCIATE rates are relevant to the discussion. Salary cuts are not client driven unless made to enable a corresponding drop in rates firms bill associates out at. Otherwise, it's purely done to maintain PPP. That's fine. But Gardere and other firms pretend otherwise. And many people are too stupid to realize this.
65 is dead on re rates. Clients just aren't accepting rate hikes that used to be standard. They don't have to. Go pull bills for your cases (if you have access) and compare your billed rate to the firm's published rate for you. For the vast majority of us, it's a steep discount.
I'm billing on a few matters right now at a huge discount of my 2008 rate -- I don't know if we even bothered to publish 2009 rates. However, I still got my tiny salary bump for moving up a class year, as did everyone else.
Eventually, something will give. If a firm can't get clients to pay rates that make 160k salary scales work, then the salary goes.
All that said, firms that claim "clients" are demanding salary cuts are full of it. Clients want lower bills, and salary cuts are a way to make up for the revenue hit.
154/157 -- Try running the Lehman Bros., Enron, or soon-to-be GM bankruptcies without associates. Go ahead. I'd like to see Weil's 20 U.S.-based bankruptcy partners run all their bankruptcies at once. And I'd like to see them try to get that bill approved by a judge.
There aren't enough hours in the day. So get a grip on reality.
- 89
Hey 158-- The only reason I would fire you to protect PPP is if you had a negative value to the firm. If you had a positive value, then you would help my PPP, and I would not fire you. That's called logic.
Now, if you are really complaining about the amount of comp., well, that really just reflects your value, now doesn't it? I'm not going to pay you 160 when I can only pay you 145, right? Again, its a question of whether you think you are entitled to welfare (which you obviously do).
Finally-- to 160: Obviously, if I had more work than partners could handle, then associates are valuable (as long as those associates were any good). But to answer your question--if it made financial sense to handle a huge matter with just partners, that's what would happen. Why would I hire someone when I could handle the matter myself?
Associates are only useful if the work is there that would justify the associate position.
161, how are you this dumb? There is no possible way you are a Partner. No one is talking about associate cuts not making sound business sense and being undertaken to aid firm profitabiliy. That's exactly why they are done.
But it's NOT to satisfy clients UNLESS billing rates are also cut. Clients only care about THEIR bottom line. They only want salary cuts if it enable firms to cut associate rates and they choose to do so. They don't want cuts that line the Partners' pockets where they see no benefit themselves.
If you are a Partner, it's clearly at a TTT. And you never learned either reading comprehension or logical resoning in school, work, or life. You are arging something that no one is disputing. That there OTHER valid reasons to cut salaries besides satsifying clients.
161, how are you this dumb? There is no possible way you are a Partner. No one is talking about associate cuts not making sound business sense and being undertaken to aid firm profitabiliy. That's exactly why they are done.
But it's NOT to satisfy clients UNLESS billing rates are also cut. Clients only care about THEIR bottom line. They only want salary cuts if it enable firms to cut associate rates and they choose to do so. They don't want cuts that line the Partners' pockets where they see no benefit themselves.
If you are a Partner, it's clearly at a TTT. And you never learned either reading comprehension or logical resoning in school, work, or life. You are arging something that no one is disputing. That there OTHER valid reasons to cut salaries besides satsifying clients.
139 -
Trust me on this: Gardere employs a grand total of 2 TSU grads. You are both misinformed and, likely, a bigot.
If your whole problem with salary cuts is that firms are not also cutting rates? Who cares? Why does that matter to anyone? Fact is--rates are being cut. But again, why does that matter to you? Is it that you think you are being lied to? You sound like a child.
Good luck in the unemployment line.
161 - The problem is that like so many other BigLaw partners (and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, for no other reason than I expect the same) you can only see today and have no vision for tomorrow. Weil was in a position to take on so many top level bankruptcies not just because they had the partners to bring them in, but because they had trained, in-place bankruptcy associates ready to go. Were all of these associates cranking out 2500+ hours two years ago when the market was peachy? Of course not. Are they cash cows now? You're damn right. But Weil is barely taking on laterals in their bankruptcy department right now? Why? Because that's smart business.
It works the other way as well though. Too many top NY firms hired too many finance associates two or three years ago. The model was unsustainable, but no one cared. Now those people are billing 50 hours a month (tops) and are all on the chopping block. That's because rather than let than keeping their hiring needs in line with historical needs, they hired on the cash cows of the day -- finance associates. Had they hired more counter-cyclical associates, they might be in a position today to accept top-paying work in these areas and use the associates they've been training for the last 3-4 years to make them boatloads of money. Instead, they're either forcing inexperienced 1Ls into these counter-cyclical practices (repeating the cycle made 3 years ago with finance associates) or they're trying to convert the finance people into counter-cyclical lawyers. Either way, you end up with a bunch of untrained monkeys who don't know what they're doing, while the firms that stayed the course are starting to bank.
Think ahead, plan ahead. Don't live for today. Those 2nd and 3rd years you're firing today aren't going to magically reappear in two years when the economy picks back up to do all your work for you. They may be replaced by 1Ls, but you lose a boatload in experience and legal prowess and have to start all over again. And that inefficiency (surprise, surprise) pisses off clients.
165, I have no problem with any of it. I am personally in a great place. I'm merely pointing out the fact that, yes, firms are usually lying when they try to justify salary cuts by blaming the clients.
People on these forums get too worked up over the 'unfairness' of Biglaw. None of that bothers me.