Salary Cut Watch: Summers at McDermott Get Pinched
McDermott Will & Emery is still on the $160K scale for first year associates. Summer associates arriving at MWE might have expected to be paid on the same scale throughout the summer.
But they would have been wrong.
Above the Law has been able to confirm that McDermott summers are being paid on a $135K scale, instead of $160K. A McDermott spokesperson had this to say about the cuts:
McDermott’s Summer Associates will be paid at the rate of $135,000 this year. We advised this year’s class of incoming Summer Associates that their compensation would be determined in the spring of 2009. The information regarding compensation for the summer was shared with all of the Summer Associates at the Firm upon arrival, as we have done in years past.
Sources that we spoke with didn’t feel that the salary cut was properly communicated. One tipster reports:
I’m subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn’t going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers.
Another tipster had a response that makes those of us at ATL happier:
I am now 15% more likely to tip ATL about any crap I see [at MWE] this summer.
After the jump, the McDermott spokespeople explain the reason for the cuts.
McDermott hasn’t cut full time associate salaries, but tipsters wonder how long that will hold up:
What’s worse is that the firm did not make any sort of communication to the summer associates about this reduction. Also, note that this firm has not (yet) reduced associate salaries. Is this reduction in summer associate salaries perhaps the canary in the coal mine, or simply a way to cut costs of the summer program?
But the firm had this to say about its cuts:
The compensation reduction was driven primarily by client concerns and reflects the challenging and ever-changing market realities that confront law firms across the U.S. Our clients have expressed concerns about cost- consciousness and use of junior attorneys on their matters. Recognizing this concern, we adjusted both our summer associate compensation and billing rates. These reductions will help to ensure our summer associates have a steady stream of interesting and challenging assignments, and ultimately, a rewarding summer experience.
Who knew that clients were concerned about the cost of summer interns?
Still, we’d advise MWE summers not to bitch about the salary reduction. Offers are probably going to be hard to come by, and the firm will surely want happy warriors.
Good luck, summers — and good luck MWE junior associates. We hope the writing isn’t on the wall.
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of salary cuts
(443) 
Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
SA to 0K
WGWAG to One First Street
The rationale for the cut is crap. No client is paying for a summer's "work" in the first place.
Mystal arrives at work at 11:00. Take note.
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary." What does that even mean? You're a law student hoping to get an offer. You should be be trying to sublet an apartment based on an $80,000 and bank as much money as you can. Salary cuts hurt and are a bit unfair but there is no reason that a law student or new associate should need the whole $160k to maintain their lifestyle. At least get the job before getting the fly crib.
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn't going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers."
Cue section 90 schtick on 3, 2, 1...
Why would a SA get an apartment based on a 160K salary. It is just 8-12 weeks -- save some money for that debt, don't blow it on a summer sublet.
To the person who rented an apartment "based on a $160K salary":
After everything that's been reported about the shitty economy, if you rented based on such lofty assumptions, then you definitely have your head so far up your ass, that it can never be extracted. Good luck getting used to the taste of shit, yours and others.
Why are people with NO experience and NO skills whining about a $145K salary.
A weekly salary based on 135K/year is actually really good for someone who has no JD, has no marketable skills, is not licensed and is really going to spend the summer going to lunch.
Awwwwww...poor babies. "Only" a 135k pay scale. For doing mindless summer associate work.
The recession's true victims.
The Padishah Emperor's pennypinching on training and material and and the constant promotions of ineffective Caids and Bursegs on political grounds in conjunction with a deep sense of cynicism sapped Sardaukar morale and undermined the legionaries before their pivotal confrontation with a rag tag tribal horde riding the terrifying sandworms on Arrakis.
awwwww.....poor little babies. would you all like some cheese with your whine? JUST BE HAPPY YOU HAVE A SUMMER POSITION and A POTENTIAL JOB AFTER LAW SCHOOL. get over it. Summers SHOULD NOT be paid commensurate with first years, because (a) their work generally SUCKS (yes, i'm a big law senior associate and sick of working with summers b/c i always have to re-do their work), and (b) they have the MOST RIDICULOUS SOCIAL SCHEDULES I HAVE EVER SEEN...yes, even this summer, our summers have events CONSTANTLY. get over it, and suck it up.
160K summer idiot will definitely be no-offered if he/she shares that story around the office.
People will be like, "yeah, now there's a future partner..."
Loser loser, front line loser.
Summer associates get paid way too much; why not cut their salaries even further to say 80k so that full-time associates who work hard and long hours aren't subject to lay-offs or pay cuts?
Based on the "subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary" comment, I will now presume that every MWE summer or regular associate I meet is a douche.
"Who knew that clients were concerned about the cost of summer interns? "
They don't. Its a shifty law-firm way of saying that our clients aren't paying us as much for our services that they used to...that's the concern.
I have no idea why law firms think they can fool people to believe that clients care about how much they pay their employees. When someone hires a contractor to repair their roof, do they care about how much the contractor pays the guy actually doing the work? NO! When someone hires a catererer, do they care how much the caterere pays the servers? NO! All you care about is how much you are out of pocket for the services.
If clients cares so much about associate/summer associate compensation, are they equally concerned with staff/administration compensation, or rent payments? Those are also part of overhead.
Fact: clients don't care, and law firms, shockingly LIE all the time, and McDermott is LYING now.
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary."
Well then, you're an asshat.
This tipster will be easily outed. How many summers does MWE have? How many are subletting? How many are subletting in a rediculous building?
If the hiring committee even gets a SNIFF of a summer associate's disatisfaction for their $135K salary-base, then they will be no-offered. When the firm says $135K, you better smile and say, "OH MY GOD, that is so much, thank you for this opportunity and I will do my very best to earn my keep"
Also, to anyone of these summers who is complaining, why don't you visualize this from a different viewpoint - you're only there because the firm has laid off current attorneys who were productive...don't become a pain in the ass, because it EASILY could have been you w/o a job
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn't going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers."
Who is this douche/knucklehead? Has D/K not seen the vast number of deferred Big Law offers or not noticed that no one is bailing law students out of their debt.
If D/K is a trust fund baby, stop b^&*hing! If D/K is not a trust fund baby, it might be time to consider saving up for that deferred year.
"The compensation reduction was driven primarily by client concerns..."
Liars. This shit doesn't even pass the laugh test. If law firms were subject to the same kinds of obligations as public companies are, they couldn't get away with public lies like these. These fuckers would be having hard conversations with the SEC. Since they're unregulated private partnerships, they're just another firm to file in the "bunch of liars who are too full of misplaced pride to admit they aren't nearly as good at managing a law firm as they thought" stack.
Ok, subletting summer is an asshat unless maybe where he goes to lawschool he's subletting for the 9 months based on the money he made this summer. Then he's not. But if he's talking about a NY summer sublet will break him, well then the kid has huge, huge issues.
Dude, 160K = 3K a week. 12K a month. Really, you're subletting that? You should be subletting under 2K and banking shit!
#7,
Very un-NYC/smalltime of you to assume everyone has debt.
Hope no one actually bought an apartment based on their $160,000 salary.
FIRST to say McDermoTTT.
This tipster really highlights his/her poor judgment by subletting an apartment like that for a few weeks. I hope the firm IDs him/her and sends them home without an offer.
Gentlemen at the legal preparatory academy with which I was once affiliated, during the course of their summer "employment," which in reality was an excuse for the exercise of various forms of debauchery by both the gentlemen themselves and the putative employers of the aforementioned gentlemen, with very little value attached to any services actually rendered, unless those services related to the aforementioned debauchery instead of legal services, frequently leased for themselves real property and appurtances thereto of a style and scope far beyond that needed to adequately sustain themselves through the summer months. The gentlemen found themselves in reduced financial circumstances after binding themselves to such leases, and sought sympathy for their plight, only to find that they were considered to be profligate spendthrifts, and were the targets of various calumnies, and scorn was heaped upon them. As the previously described scorn and calumnies were well-deserved, this was not considered to be of particular consequence or otherwise newsworthy to a broader audience.
wow. i would like to punch the sublet summer in the face. you think you have it bad? what about associates with families to support and mortgages to pay that got no bonus, no raise and salary cuts?
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary." - You fucking whiny whiny whiny piece of shit. It's the worse recession since the Great Depression and you're mad about getting paid $135k for doing NOTHING at work!
I'm fucking glad there is a recession so some of these whiny little shitheads get their comeuppance. These fucks don't know anything about reality or the real world. A miserable life in Biglaw is too good them.
29, to be safe, and I'm pretty sure that he/she's not the only one subletting a $3k apartment for the summer, just punch every MWE summer in the face.
HAHAHA. McDermott should just fire and no offer all the summers. So far you have 2 snitches and 1 big time whiner. That's 3 people you can easily replace with laid off people in a year.
LAW STUDENTS ARE SOOO FUCKING STUPID! Dont rat out your firm the first week of your internship in a recession asshats. That's just common sense. i'd fire you all right now if I was in charge. We're paying you a ton of money to do nothing and your bitching about it on the internet to the legal community. SOO FUCKING MATURE.
As a veteran of MWE, let me say: get used to disappointment.
Summer associates are the most worthless people on earth. They have no idea what to do and are just a money suck for law firms. They should be paid $12 an hour, $15 an hour for T10 schools.
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn't going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers."
I would love to meet this kid. He should get dinged just for being an idiot (and yes, he's working for McDermott so insert your own joke)
What does this even mean? He's paying somewhere between 3-5k of rent for a place by himself the summer??
I know 5th years who don't even do this.
A summer can complain when he's been offered a full-time job, taken that job, then taken out a mortgage, private school, etc based upon his salary and suddenly it changes. Law students who have an 8-12 week gig, whose time doens't get billed, who eat for free, and don't do anything to increase the bottom line? Hmmmm...shouldn't complain about making five figures a month for the summer. Maybe they should just pray that their starting salary remains where expected.
All summers should really be at the NYU dorms and saving their money or subletting from a friend. Any other option proves you're not bright since you're wasting money in a recession and don't read the news to know how many people are unemployed and should be no-offered.
#28, you owe me a keyboard.
I'm probably going to regret this, but I am the summer who posted the quote about subletting the apartment.
I think I was totally justified and think the posters are likely just jealous haters who did not get anything for OCI. Part of getting an offer in big law is showing you can live the big law lifestyle. If I have associates over for cocktails I will impress them with my taste, compared to other summers who will be living in embarrassing shitholes. I don't care about short-term summer savings, I want that offer, and a nice apartment could help me get it.
Since when are the NYU dorms cheap?
I'm going to presume 39 is full of shit. In defense of the summer quoted, I read his/her frustration as not with the amount of the salary but, rather, the late notice of its reduction.
39: flamer. Not possibly the real poster. No one could seriously be that absurd in his/her reasoning.
I feel bad for the other 90% of Summers at this firm. All associates and partners at your firm have read this and are now thinking, "damn we have asshats in our midst" Therefore, every time they look at any of you they are now just thinking "I bet you're the asshat with the sublet aren't you."
If I worked there I wouldn't want to even attempt to know any of you for the reason that I might get stuck at a 2 hour lunch with the dude bitching about his sublet.
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn't going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers."
What the hell is this d-baggery? You are six figures in debt and living like you're a movie star?
Hopefully this d-bag is no offered.
"Our clients have expressed concerns about cost- consciousness and use of junior attorneys on their matters. Recognizing this concern, we adjusted both our summer associate compensation and billing rates."
I'm piggybacking on 17 and 22 here, but it's worth continuing to undercsore that that firms like McDermott are intentionally obfuscating. At this point, these types of pronouncements have about as much credibility as Baghdad Bob and Kevin Bacon's character in Animal House ("All is Well!!!").
I don't have any problem with McDermott making a decision to cut Summer Associate salaries. They don't need to justify their decision to anyone. We get it. They are the owners of the business.
But what McDermott is implying here is that an effective way to address general "concerns about cost-consciousness", particularly as it relates to work done by junior attorneys, is to cut summer associate salaries and billing rates. Not a single allusion here to cutting actual associate or partner rates, which clearly would benefit clients the most.
Honestly, if these are the types of specious arguments advanced by McDermott's lawyers, I'd be really concerned if I were a McDermott client.
HOW FUCKING SHADY! NICE TO SEE HOW MWE COMMUNICATES WITH ITS ASSOCIATES.
39, if you really are the idiot summer, you are an even bigger idiot than we thought. No one cares about your taste or your apartment. You want an offer, show you don't mind having a crap apartment because you are never there anywhere since you live at the office working your a$$ off.
If you really think you will get an offer based on inviting an associate over for cocktails and showing you have taste, you are incredibly clueless.
Your offer or lack thereof will be based on your wllingness to work long hours, produce a good work product, and kiss the managing partner's ass. Not your choice in decor.
Clients are worried about the amount paid to associates, but not concerned about the partners' obscene income?
Just consume $15,000 more firm food & drink to even things out.
Not to worry. MWE hands out partnership like it's going out of style. There are partners at MWE who wouldn't even be senior associates at more respectable firms. So, summers at MWE, work hard, take your 135K, and hey - you can be partner in 4-5 years, tops! Of course, don't ever think about moving to another firm as a "partner."
MWE SA here (Actually MWE)-
We all know who this douche is. The fucked up part is that 39 could actually be the tipster. I've already been privately told that the tipster in question will be "dinged."
I was gonna comment on the douchery of SA's...but y'all pretty much got it covered.
Just consume $25,000 more firm food & drink to even things out.
these SAs should count their fucking blessings.
As a general point to follow on 47, no associate is ever going to visit your apartment or drink your liquor. We spend enough time socializing at summer events and will take those opportunities to see our significant others and friends.
MWE SA here (Actually MWE)-
We all know who this douche is. The fucked up part is that 39 could actually be the tipster. I've already been privately told that the tipster in question will be "dinged."
39 cant be the douchebag summer. He can't be that dumb. If it was him, since it's 11ish on a weekday he's probably posting from the MWE office. GET ON IT TECH DEPARTMENT!!! Search him out. Fucking morons.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of summer associate time is actually billed to clients. My hunch is that it is less than 1 hour per summer associate per day. The rate cut argument only works if there is a similiar reduction in rates for experienced associates and partners. Clients never like to be billed for summer associates' work; a vast majority of their time is always written off.
there's no way 39 is the real guy. i agree w/ 41 - the late notice is bad regardless.
As a general point to follow on 47, no associate is ever going to visit your apartment or drink your liquor. We spend enough time socializing at summer events and will take those opportunities to see our significant others and friends rather than see your apartment. This is especially true now that many events are no longer "plus one" opportunities.
Who gets a summer sublet thinking they can just barely afford it if all this SA dough rolls in? Really? Its not enough you get to eat at blackbird or 9 and FEEL like a high roller? You actually have to go out and waste your summer earnings renting a high-end apartment to prove you're one too? For what, so that you can go back to eating ramen noodles and living in your parent's basement when the school year starts back up?
Jeebus. If you're going to do that, you better not come on here bitching about the crushing law school debt you took on. Even at these salaries, that $28K you'll make at MWE this summer could pay most of a year's tuition if you didn't waste it on a gold coast sublet.
At least they say they adjusted billing rates along with the salaries. I'll give them that. Some firms (and they may have included MWE) in the past have said they froze or cut salaries in response to client concerns but didn't say anything about reducing billing rates, which after all is what clients really care about.
the sublet guy is a complete and utter fucknut and deserves a no offer without question. Enjoy the NO salary when you are out on the street with other people who actually know how to practice law. What a complete and total moron.
p.s. Agree that summer associates are the most worthless people on earth. the summer is a joke and most of their work is written down by partners, thrown away by associates and ignored by staff. Keep your held held high you self-important d-bags.
I'm actually going to defend the summer who subletted based upon 160k. You all assume that he means he got a nice apt. Maybe he budgeted 'x' amount to save and then got an apt with the remainder and means that he would've gotten an even worse apt if he had known that he was going to make less. He could be subletting a coat closet and would've opted for a box on the street. The point remains, there is no reason for MWE to spring it on the summers like "SURPRISE, not only are you likely to be deferred/not get an offer but you're making less than you thought too."
Its not like the kid said "I hate these guys, I can't believe that I'm not getting paid at 160k rate. There is no justice in the world." The quote was only that he would've appreciated a heads up, a note maybe. Perhaps a phone call. God knows recruiting isn't busy hiring people right now so I don't think its crazy to ask for a text message saying you won't be paid as much.
Please create a post on the following topic: What are 3Ls that are deferred for several months (or a year) doing about health insurance?
Thank you
How funny would it be if 39 was for real and really thinks that the associates are going to be hanging out at his pad all summer drinking cocktails. This dude must get all his information about law firm life from John Grisham novels. Don't forget to ask about that BMW and home morgage the firm gives you when you start. You have no idea what you're getting into.
I hope he tipped off ATL from work or commented from work, IT finds out, and he gets fired this week. That'd be awesome. if it happens can a MWE summer please notify ATL? Do it from home, not from work! Thanks.
"Part of getting an offer in big law is showing you can live the big law lifestyle."
Really 39? Because you've clearly been to this rodeo before. I also disagree with your characterization of the other posters as "jealous haters who did not get anything for OCI." I'm willing to bet most of them are like me - associates who cannot believe your stupidity and gall.
Have a nice summer, because it will be the last time you get a paycheck for a loooong time.
64, let's try this one more time. Summers should be lucky they are getting ANYTHING. God forbid they get 2000 instead of 2400!!!!! Jesus Christ. This sense of entitlement is unbelievable and is one of the reasons why everyone hates lawyers. 64 can kiss my ass.
- Gallion
Please create a post on the following topic: What are 3Ls that are deferred for several months (or a year) doing about health insurance?
Thank you
Yes - SA compensation does not directly drive client billing rates, but it really isn't that attenuated. There are plenty of GCs out there who know how much people - including first-years and SAs - are being paid, and the first thought that comes to their minds is probably that some of what they are paying to their firms go towards supporting worthless / inexperienced lawyers who contribute nothing to the client's work.
I agree that senior associates, of counsels, and partners should take a big hit too - they should in fact take a much bigger hit than most. But it doesn't change the fact that SAs are getting paid way too much to do almost nothing. They should be happy with anything that pays them more than $40K when they have no experience, little to no skill, no degree, and no bar membership. Days of entitlement are over.
If you're living in Chicago and paying more than 1,200/month for your place you are completely and utterly insane. To do that you have to make a conscious choice to NOT live in the fun parts of town (and there are tons of them), with the best bars, restaurants, etc., so that you can pay way too much to live in some downtown glitzy building with nothing to do at night or on the weekends. Congratulations, you'll be broke and bored this summer.
If you're living in Chicago and paying more than 1,200/month for your place you are completely and utterly insane. To do that you have to make a conscious choice to NOT live in the fun parts of town (and there are tons of them), with the best bars, restaurants, etc., so that you can pay way too much to live in some downtown glitzy building with nothing to do at night or on the weekends. Congratulations, you'll be broke and bored this summer.
I wish I could see a youtube video of 39 at the moment when he's sitting in his shoebox office at 2 am proof reading the boilerplate in the back of some 200 page contract and reality suddenly sinks in.
68 i love you. "Part of getting an offer in big law is showing you can live the big law lifestyle." is one of the funniest sentences i've ever read. hey kid, get back to us after working 3 years as a contract attorney working 12 hours a day making minimum wage reviewing spreadsheets.
p.s. MWE associate here. really looking forward to those swinging parties at your pad. I hear its the place to be this summer! Jackass.
NYU dorms are insanely expensive. you're looking at 2500 / month for a shithold studio, 1800 / month for a 1br in a 3br with no living room and laughable bathroom and kitchen.
If you're going to pay those rates you might as well live like a rockstar in Brooklyn, Jersey, or Queens depending on where your firm office is located.
39 HAS to be a joke. If not, then see 47 and 68. Good for a chuckle, though.
(Perhaps a "Clueless SA" avatar with contributions like post #39 would add some humor to these boards.)
Associates with "experience" are looking over their shoulders every day and looking out into a comatose job market. Or just getting fired. These people who are experienced in nothing but talking about their majors should be on their knees thanking these firms for a job at any pay. If they need to find housing they can consult wtih their friends who were foolish enough to do social science masters degrees and are interning for princely sum of the pre-tax deduction on their metro cards.
Steadily rising PPP is the glue that holds this firm (and others) together. When the glue softens or dissolves - the bond disintegrates, partners depart, warfare breaks out over client credit / billing / compensation / management issues. A nick on rates for summer associates is like putting a band aid over a sucking chest wound. An aggressive firm would announced a 25-30% reduction in hourly rates and adjust compensation across the board accordingly. This step for the summer associates, while defensible, does not begin to address the fundamental problems facing large law firms.
65- APPLY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE.
Did you really graduate law school?
48, did you just wake up yesterday? has to be a law student.
59 -- The word that you are trying to use is "irregardless." "Regardless" isn't even a word...
I love this guy!! He sounds awesome!
um, 82 are you for real? the choices are Regardless or Irrespective. Irregardless is not a word. And you, sir, are an idiot.
Good thread. Legal Fraternity Lothario makes a rare (and welcome) appearance with his usual savoir faire, and 14 comes strong with ATL's first craps reference.
39 is the sort of asshat who makes $160,000 and goes out to lease a $1400 a month Range Rover in addition to purchasing a brownstone in the UES to show off his "lifestyle."
Actually, whether or not irregardless is a word is debatable. Given its common usage and generally accepted meaning (not to mention is it included in some dictionaries) I would say it is, and means the same thing as regardless. Simiar to flammable and inflammable. It comes down to what constitutes a word. If I say/write a "fake" word and most people who speak English know what I mean then whats the difference from a "real" word. Words are just a means of expressing an idea.
However, 84 is right, 82 is still an idiot since he said regardless isn't a word and the quasi-word should be used in its place.
"irregardless"
"a whole nother"
"guesstimate"
blech.
"To the person who rented an apartment "based on a $160K salary":
After everything that's been reported about the shitty economy, if you rented based on such lofty assumptions, then you definitely have your head so far up your ass, that it can never be extracted. Good luck getting used to the taste of shit, yours and others."
+1.
This is why I love working in a smaller market: the bigger markets and big firms do us a service by identifying the insipid morons who don't have both feet on the ground so we can hire people with actuall skills, common sense and without the overinflated sense of self-importance.
And, I too hope this dimwit eats it. It sounds and smells like a trust-fund baby who has never gotten a speck of dirt under any of his perfectly manicured fingernails and has someone wipe his fanny for him after pooing in his family's gilded toilet. A cold, hard slap of reality to the groin would do him good.
What makes everyone think the $160k tipster is a guy? Most law school girls have no financial sense, and they stave off the inevitable having to live within their means by getting married.
82 - you're awesome. Irregardless of what anyone else says.
I can agree that summers make too much. However, several of the comments here are ridiculous, and demonstrate a level of analysis far below what I would expect even form a summer associate. He said he sublet an apartment based on a higher salary, meaning nothing more than that he decided how much he wouldn't mind spending on rent based on how much he expected to earn. He makes quite clear that he can still afford to pay his rent. And you can't really determine anything about how much he's paying for his apartment, only that he would have paid less if he knew he was going to be making less money.
82 - wrong. "Irregardless" is generally listed in dictionaries as "incorrect" or "nonstandard".
Dolts who think that this is the time to party like it's 1999 deserve to be fired.
64 here, thanks 92, glad someone else posting has some logical reasoning skills to speak of.
I honestly hope 39 is for real. Reality can be hard even to those who are most in tune, but it will prove to be a very cruel awakening for you.
Is 39 for real? That is dumbest thing I EVER heard. I mean, his/her initial comment wasn't terribly objectionable (yes, late notice sucks), but the follow up ... I mean, ..... WOW.
Kid,
(1) In the glory days of our most recent Ponzi economy, we handed out offers to EVERYONE who summered. We didn't do that because you had a great eye for late 19th century Swedish dildos, although I can imagine some partners might be impressed. We had so much work that it was hard to find bodies who could bill. We assumed your HYS degree meant you could work hard (i.e., bill) and generate more profits for us.
(2) Now is a little different in case you haven't noticed. We've deferred ALL of last years summers, although I'm pretty sure we can't afford the recruiting hit if we dump ANY of them like Fish & Richardson. So believe me when I say that we don't care about your apartment. The better question is whether your work will be of a quality that I can bill out without having my GCs complain. PPP is the key to our hearts. Remember that (unless your apartment is sooo awesome that it actually brings in clients).
PPP. That's all that matters.
- not 39.
I honestly hope 39 is for real. Reality can be hard even to those who are most in tune, but it will prove to be a very cruel awakening for you.
93 and 84 have no senses of humor...
The ship be sinking...
Telling people that their salary will not be what they expected on the day they show up stinks. If nothing else, it kills morale and demonstrates that the firm is disorganized. So, the SA's getting kicked are feeling pain because: (a) they just found out they won't be getting $$ they had expected; and (b) the firm they are working for, that they are praying like crazy will give them an offer, is a worse place than they thought it was 12 hours ago.
That said, summer sublet rents have generally stayed the same since 2003/2004, when 1st years and SAs in NYC were making all of $125,000. So, you're probably renting the same place, at the same rate, that you would have if you'd known you were making 135k. I mean, if you are working in midtown west, would you really have sublet in brooklyn for $1500/mo instead of $2000 on the UWS or the village if you had known? NONE of the summers in my summer class, being paid 125k, sublet outside Manhatten.
160 vs 135 certainly matters for building up savings, paying down loans, and purchasing a family home, but it really shouldn't be impacting where you rent if it is just you or a you & a significant other . . .
Look at Silicon Valley to know...
check it
39 is a MWE SA who knows an fellow MWE summer who dropped $$$ on a pad for the summer
very sneaky
Also to the person who rented an apartment "based on a $160K salary":
You are full of it. What, are you renting a townhome on Astor St. you douche? What an idiotic false statement.
@39:
You fucking douchebag.
*aims*
BLAM!
Wow, that makes me feel better. I'll die another day.
Give the kid a break. 2010 and 2011 are going to run into one hell of buzzsaw. The real world will disabuse 39 of his/her silly notions.
Also, this sounds like 39's first time summering. I think we were all a little full of ourselves after year one of law school.
MWE Summer Associate - After you receive your treasures from the firm this summer, you're fuckin' out!
39 here. There's no way you heard that 51. You can all say what you want, but I know clothes and apartments matter. When they are choosing to give offers they want an associate who can hobnob with clients. In other words, having classy taste and not being a cheap-skate is a valuable asset to the firm in the LONG-TERM.
The problem wasn't just with my apartment. I bought a lot of very expensive suits too, and expensive cufflinks.
Pimpin' ain't easy but it's necessary, so now I'm off to chase bitches like Tom chases Jerry. Later chumps.
so now I'm off to chase bitches like Tom chases Jerry
You do know that Tom never gets Jerry, right? And he usually ends up getting beaten, burned, or electricuted.
108,
Nice, troll. Tom never catches Jerry; he usually ends up getting hit in the face with a shovel.
#39: "Part of getting an offer in big law is showing you can live the big law lifestyle."
Swing by my office with kneepads and lubricant. I'll explain "big law lifestyle" to you - the lifestyle is that, if you have a job, you will have no time for a lifestyle, so it doesn't matter what kind of hellhole you live in. What are you polanning on, inviting the hiring partner over for a nooner?
All of you complaining are the worst kind of fags possible. Who the fuck are you to whine about 100k + when you have 0 marketable skills, can barely dress yourselves, and more than likely have never been laid.
YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS
Skadden Secure
NO, this is the real 39 here, and I just want to elaborate on the post I made above, which it seems that most of you are incapable of understanding.
Look, everyone knows that what we do isn' t difficult. Hell, staff attorney monkeys can do what we do, so we're clearly fungible in that way. HOWEVER, if you look at it long term, there are other qualities that elevates one to consideration for partnership, and that means relating to people who make a lot of money and maintain a very high standard of living. Being thrifty isn't a sign that you can emphatize with these elites, because they'll see that you don't understand what they have to lose. But, living their life, showing that you have class and taste and aren't afraid to spend, means that you are part of their world, and clearly understand the stakes at such a high level.
I'm aiming high. Don't fault me for that.
113 = reality fail.
112 - Nailed it.
As a recently laid off 3rd year big law litigation associate now desperately looking for work at gov’t agencies and small firms, I can affirmatively state I have no marketable skills. I never interviewed a witness, attended a deposition, wrote a meaningful motion or appeared in court. I am now competing with so-called “toileteers” who spend their first few years in DA offices or small firms and actually know what it is like to be a real lawyer. Big Law/T14 schools are overpriced FRAUDS. Big Law Junior associates are nothing more then billing monkeys that learn nothing and are dumped overboard without a second thought
115 nailed it - biglaw junior-mid litigation associates are overpaid and have few to none marketable skills. I tell my lowly paid ADA and court attorney friends not to be jealous of the 160K salaries their biglaw friends are making...whenthey get checked after 1-2 years in this market they will know how much their prestige is worth. bupkiss
i meant 116 post nailed it
I have to agree with 116, too. Good points 112 and 116.
Lucidity is commodity around these parts.
Homer: "I thought you were thought you were here to buy me out!"
Gates: "I didn't get this rich by writing a lot of checks."
McDermott is genetically incapable of communicating properly with its associates and even the junior partners. Most partners hoarded information at the best of times and I can imagine things have gotten worse now.
On another note, any partner who actually bills a client for summer associate work is courting disaster and deserves any trouble they get into.
Hey 39,
Ex-partner of a top 10 Biglaw firm here -- please, do yourself a favor here and look at life from a more modest perspective. Nothing in Biglaw is a guaranty. Not as a SA, nor as an associate nor as a Biglaw partner. Nothing. The best you can do in this environment is to be modest and save save save save. A day likely will come where you see the bigger picture in life and, please trust me, you do not want unncessary debt. Remember these words. No need to thank me. Just remember and act accordingly.
97 -- The word that you are trying to use is "dildoes." "Dildos" isn't even a word...
71 - You're wrong that the relationship isn't that attentuated, but you're right that there a lot of dumb (or at least business dumb) lawyers out there who don't understand that.
Law firms aren't materially different than any other business. They pay their employees what they have to pay to keep them and to compete for employees. That has nothing to do with rates.
This is what happens when you have a bunch of political science and english majors go to law school. They may be smart people, but they have absolutely no business sense.
I can't believe the number of posters on here who have taken the bait on the "real 39" and "irregardless." Is this what we have to look forward to all summer as SA's flood ATL? Cripes. Here's one for you- I heard that MWE got a lot of their recruits from UPenn St and that the $160k rent guy was one of them.
Do me a favor, SAs, reading this thread --
If you show up one day this summer wearing a dark Brooks Brothers suit and flaming red shoes, don't fucking expect a job offer at the end of the summer.
In today's economy, you don't want to stand out; standing out just paints a target on you and this SA certainly is now a target to be dinged.
Dumbass.
Locke Lord Houston gave me Texas Big AIDS, so I really can't complain too much about MW&E.
122 is telling it straight. I'd worry less about parties and night life and more about maximizing the long benefits. It could be a long winter. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Hey 113, staff attorney monkey here. I'm looking forward to finding out who you are (and I will) and ruining all chances of you getting an offer. You should really think before you speak or write. It would serve you well. You could have avoided all of this if you had. You brought this on yourself. Remember that when it comes back to bite you in the ass. Let the games begin. Good luck.
Hey 113, staff attorney monkey here. I'm looking forward to finding out who you are (and I will) and ruining all chances of you getting an offer. You should really think before you speak or write. It would serve you well. You could have avoided all of this if you had. You brought this on yourself. Remember that when it comes back to bite you in the ass. Let the games begin. Good luck.
#129 - I will be easy to find. I will be the one pounding your mother in the ass.
113
39 / 113, two words: bankruptcy. Enjoy it. Idiot.
Wow! That mother comment was SO original. This one is definitely partner material. Hahahahahaha!!!!
I'm sittin here thinkin that if'n I were an MWE jr. sociate, I'd be mighty happy figurin that 39 ain't no way no how gonna get an offer n put my job in jep'dy.
Course, if'n I were an MWE jr. sociate, I'd also be mighty pissed to be sociated in any which way with an a'hole like 39.
Sho am glad I ain't an MWE jr. sociate. Magin havin to take 39 to lunch! Nuf t' make a man puke - just ponderin that waste o' time!
Jeez, people if you really think that 39/113/whoever is the real tool quoted in the original post, then you need to take a step back and get a grip. We have PE, Lothario, Dune people, etc, so we'll soon probably also have the "real 39" thrown into the mix.
You're all quite funny...except for the "staff attorney monkey," who probably should have gotten better grades in law school.
113 better hope 129 does not figure out who he is. Fortunately, 113 is not intelligent enough to SHUT IT when he should, so 129 will have no problem finding him and applying the appropriate corrective measure(s).
We do know it will not be a lobotomy since 113 done that himself. Idiot.
136,
I don't know. Do many staff attorneys get invited to cocktails with the associates?
Staff attorney monkey here. 113, I am not going to worry about whether you get an offer or not. Instead, I am going to break your face when I find you.
Staff attorney monkey here. 113, I am not going to worry about whether you get an offer or not. Instead, I am going to break your face when I find you.
Michele Obama's Penis is extremely disappointed in all of you.
Michele Obama's Scrote
Given that I have $250,000 in debt and no job, I would rather participate in the gom jabbar game with the Bene Gesserit instead of participating in a game of one-upmanship with a staff attorney and a summer associate with a lobotomy and who prematurely dinged himself/herself.
MWE is an absolute hellhole. Most income partners I know at the firm are crapping in their pants waiting for the inevitable axe to fall. Capital partners are getting demoted or being told to leave on a regular basis. The associates, particularly the junior associates, are not a talented bunch.
My advice to companies seeking good attorneys: don't hire MWE.
137, 136 here. No clue on the stratification b/w staff attorneys and associates since I work in a smaller shop, but I do suspect that there will be a cocktail of blood "staff attorney monkey" will be enjoying after he performs an ancient Aztec ritual on 39 / 113.
Well if you summer in the DC office, you will be paid to do absolutely nothing because there is no work, so STOP whining!
Do SAs have much association with staff attorneys? It seems to me that the rigid caste system imposed by big firms pretty much precludes nearly any kind of interaction between the two distinct sets of people.
39/108 here (the other post wasn't me).
I made the 39 post and subsequent post because I was bored. Of course I'm not actually the MWE tipster...
Dance puppets, dance.
MWE monitors web use.
142 nailed it. McDermott sucks. I can't even begin to describe how dishonest the equity partners are to associates and to each other. Can anyone confirm whether two of the firm's major rainmakers are leaving soon?
The firms biggest clients do not allow the firm to bill for summer time.
142/144
That's distinctly odd because I'm in the process of applying for a job as a fourth year associate with MWE DC. I've been told that there's plenty of work in DC.
There is no work at McDermott DC.
Is MWE taking the summers to the four seasons again for the summer retreat. Made be sick last year.
Agree with 142. I've never been impressed with MWE. Even it's private client group--I'd recommend a Big 4 (those that haven't gutted their practices) or some wealth management boutiques: full service by people with business/investment sense without ridiculous BigLaw billing rates. Why the hell do people go to a BigLaw firm for this? Suckers.
Anyway, for those who keep mocking staff attorneys: That was okay to do 18 months ago. Things have changed quite a bit now. Plenty of us who have been laid-off over the past few months would cut off a toe for a staff attorney job at a V50 right now. Too bad they're largely getting the axe, too.
Do most of you not realize how bad it is right now? And how dim the future looks for BigLaw? These firms won't be re-hiring all of us in 2010Q1 or whenever the "experts" say our economy is "coming back."
MWE Chicago sucks giant donkey balls.
151,
Is that true for IP in DC?
125,
By you complaining, you yourself are taking the bait. FAIL.
126
Didn't know that MWE hired fruits like Adam Lambert.
But now consider this: is the "real 39" troll actually a staff attorney himself? I sense a lot of self-hatred there.
148, it is true
150, what group?
113 here. I'm obviously an internet troll who hasn't even graduated from law school yet. Move along now.
160
See 155
150
155 - The DC IP practice died about 10 months ago. The IP partners with business left.
Wonderful.
My one real live job prospect just withered on the vine.
I was told that there was plenty of work and I was in line for an interview.
Fucking liars.
155
116 - good luck...keep applying to the fed govt. The agency I work at will be hiring many attorneys over the next 6-18 months.
McDermott is the national leader in screwing its employees (no IP pun intended).
Does anyone have anything positive to say about MWE? The firm must really suck based on this and other "articles" on ATL.
Was is there so much screaming and yelling in the DC office? Has anyone else noticed that there are far too many meetings behind closed doors?
148. Yes. Confirmed. Could be 3.
To the MWE attorneys who have NOTHING to do in the office all day, what the hell do you do during office hours and to whom do you bill your six minute increments?
I see OJ, and he be looking berry, berry scared.
Hmmm.... Just took a look at MWE offices in the NALP directory. They have an awesomely low leverage ration (associate:partner), but that has to be masked by the two tiered partnership. Apparently even the janitors at MWE can make "partner." No idea how many non-fake partners they have.
Professional reading is my favorite. This time can be used to search for jobs because no job is safe at MWE.
McDermott absolutely monitors its employees' postings on ATL. I was fired for tipping ATL about MWE's salary freeze months ago. Yes I should have been smarter and not done the tipping from my work computer (but through my personal email). Still, I thought getting fired for it was a bit much. That was not the official reason of course, but a trustworthy friend in the IT department informed me and told me it's a common practice at MWE.
Working with Magungo and Latuka clearly would have been a superior choice this summer. They have actually raised first year salaries to 35 conch shells.
TPM is not going anywhere. McDermott pays him close to $6M annually even though his clients (or the firm) have to pay millions in sanctions for his behavior, he hasn't attracted in a new client to the firm for a while, and let the entire IP department implode under his leadership. What other firm is going to get him that sweet of a deal in exchange for what little he can bring to the table?
174 is full of crap. The firm doesn't monitor a damn thing.
177 - you're fired
Tell that to the attorneys let go for porn. MR ring a bell.
If you want to work for the IP partners tat put the firm on the map, you need to go to Weil or White.
177 is incorrect. The firm constantly its dwindling operating income.
First prize is a Cadillac Eldorado.
Second prize is a set of steak knives.
Third prize is you're fired.
McDermoTTT.
168, I don't know but I don't like it. 9 is terrible. A bunker is in order to hide from fallout. I can hear some of it on 8.
168, I don't know but I don't like it. 9 is terrible. A bunker is in order to hide from fallout. I can hear some of it on 8.
174 here clarifying that "common practice" was a reference to the net monitoring, not firing employees for posting on ATL. I was informed a certain JS (now co-chair of the firm) was furious about the post and wanted the person's head.
You sign a release allowing them to monitor and they do.
174, haven't you just outed yourself?
Do the summers sign the IT policy?
187 -- no, we don't. Go ahead, it's okay. We don't. Really.
184, I feel your pain. Sometimes it's hard to work with all of the distractions.
191, everyone knows who it is too but for a firm with a no A-hole policy, it sure seems like there are quite a few in one or two groups.
174 didn't out anything because it never happened. MWE makes up many excuses to lay off attorneys, but this isn't one of them.
The IT people are pretty willing to tell war stories about what they have seen attorneys doing, especially if they like you and not the person doing the surfing. I have heard my share. Can't look at certain people in the same way I used to.
193, why should we believe you?
193 - MWE didn't give that as its reason, as I said. The reason given was hours even though I was on track for 2,100 (excl. pro bono).
The no a-hole policy was drafted by an a-hole.
How do you know they know about the ATL post.
MWE sucks.
Like I said, friend in IT.
There are gradations of Aholes allowed. If you represent certain financial institutions, big oil, fruit companies, etc., then they pay you millions, allow you to run the firm and let you yell and scream all you want.
wow, you are a slacker. you must bill at least 2100 to be average.
Sorry 200. Some of the IT people are pretty nice that way.
Quite right, 202. 2,100 hours is quite a poor showing in the worst economy since the 1930s when many associates are billing 20 hours per month.
The screamers in DC are are on the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 12th floors. 184 is right.
McDermott will never be able to get "top talent" again. Now law students have all the power!
The 5th floor is pretty quiet but probably because there is no work.
204, I am sick of excuses.
Did MWE scrap plans to open offices in Asia?
Does MWE have any clients in Asia?
What's worse than someone in Biglaw? Nothing.
I really like the IP group. I get mentored and have lots of client contact. I will also get promoted. What more do I need?
You guys are a bunch of cry babies.
212, the question is who are you sleeping with?
Staff attorney monkey, you were supposed to be a big moneymaker for the firm. The whole idea of staff attorneys is that MWE could pay you $40/hour and bill you at $250. The profit margin was much greater than for a normal associate. Have they backed off this?
212 is sleeping with JF
yuck
I guess that explains the confidence about being promoted
I guess that explains the confidence about being promoted
Are their any good looking male partners at McDermott? Hideous.
207, if that is true how does 212 think she will be promoted
see 215
The DC office is in disarray. The office is incredibly slow and collectibles are down. Virtually all the attorneys are milking the pay as long as possible, and most know what's coming. It's a miserable place right now, and it's only getting worse.
MWE Chicago is slow too. Everyone knows what to expect.
To all non-biglaw lawyers, and clients reading:
the interesting thing about post 39, etc., is not the obnoxious douchebag-ness of the poster, but the fact that no one can tell whether he's being serious or not.
Yes, biglaw really is FULL of shallow idiots like that, and yes, people there really do occupy themselves with these types of things while they bill clients $500/hr to cut/paste and sort emails by date.
They really are that worthless, and it really is that pathetic.
Every once in a while I consider never coming back to this site or reading the comments - then I read something like 28 and get hooked again.
Well played, sir.
After reading all of the comments I've determined that hell is a better place than McDermott.
Well, I'm not sure I would go that far...but Hell has a better management team.
and coffee
145- Staff attys are with their families and friends during summer associate "bubba time".
145, attorneys don't really want to attend every SA event. We work all day and want to go home. We don't want to make small talk. We cannot bill for the time and don't get billable credit for recruiting efforts. We go because Brenda would have our head and make us pay with the silent treatment for months if we did not.
MWE sucks. The good attorneys have already left.
176,
Terry has a small weiner. He hails from some shit school -- I think its called Santa Clarita Law School or some shit like that. And he makes nowhere near 6 million a year. He's not starving, that's for sure, but he is not even at the top of the firm's "Christmas Tree."
many of the leaders are small.
Clearly he is not starving, he weighs a ton. Look at the Christmas tree again my brother.
that would mean he makes more that RJ, PP, etc.
McDERMOTT-DC = shit for women.
- I've been hit on inappropriately; I've seen summers hit on by partners.
- lots of sexists and screamers.
- female associates have screwed partners and then been promoted for doing so to income partner.
- one woman left a particular practice group because of "problems" she had with a partner... she was then not-so-gently forced from the firm.
- good bonuses and assignments are given to the most "social" of associates (read -- girls who show skin).
- too many nonlinear intra-office couples (partners with associates and staff).
- a small handful of women capital partners -- one's a part-timer; one's a dragon; and the only one with pull is a bitch.
- no room for advancement or promotion (very few women with pull nationally -- AK and PW are the only ones who come to mind).
disgruntled income partner
236, as a female partner, I echo everything you said. It is not a great place for work. The two partners with pull don't use it, although AK is willing to talk. I also think that the lack of support actually makes women act poorly toward each other. The tattletales are the worst.
235 --
Word on the street... Ray is good, but he is apparently having problems with collecting from a certain very big client in an antitrust case; Paul might have pull now but aren't his major clients the former i-banks (and I always thought his non-bank work was pocket change)?
Oh well, I have no book, so what do I know...
236 & 237,
I'm not in DC, but I know your office well. Sexism... so what? Sex-for-promotion... what else is new? Partner-associate relations... it happens at every firm. I've never hit on a McDermott chick -- not because I'm ethically opposed to it, actually I'd love some intraoffice action. I've never hit on a McDermott chick because the firm has a disproportionally high share of ugly women.
232
238, RJ's book has been huge and he shares credit so will the one client not paying really matter? As for PP, the fighting on 9 tells you all you need to know about the state of the group. Many looking for a life boat and none seeming to like each other, especially amoung capital Ps. But PP is a pit bull so you can't count him out.
239, Let's be clear hear. The firm has some pretty fugly men too. One of the worst offenders in terms of unwanted attention is a big bald arrogant appellate marshmellow. Ask any woman in DC. So it does not really matter what the women look like when the men are hardly better.
MWE? Scumbags? Who knew?
238 -- There are lots of things for you to worry about... your job security, your 401k dwindling, whether your daughter gets around. But there is no need to worry about RJ (he's got plenty of clients) or PP (his theme song may as well be Destiny's Child "I'm a survivor").
WHY IS EVERYONE KNOCKING ON McDERMOTT?
244. everyone is "knocking on mcdermott" because the managing partner of the dc office drives a ghetto-ass mustang convertible. as #100 aptly stated "the ship be sinking...."
mid-level associate with one billable matter: 009900.
You know what's sad? Winston & Strawn sucks more. Way more. In fact, W&S sucks more than getting shot with a nailgun.
So glad I turned down McDermott this summer...
What a bunch of wankos. This is one of the most deceptive, BS moves I've seen for a while. Weak, slimy filth. Can't even give the kids a heads up?
Partners at a major law firm can't bring themselves to inform some pee-on SA's that they're getting less money. They're so damn insecure that they wait until the little bastards actually show up and can't back out.
As if they could have backed out ANYWAY in this legal climate.
A regular lot of spineless amoebas...
186--
Also just goes to show that McDermott is weak. If they get upset because their BS move hit above the law, then they really are a bunch of retards. And I mean that in the went-to-special-ed kind of retard.
Do these people really think their lame stunts aren't going to get out?
Full on idiots. Wonder what they're like in court. Well...no I don't. They're dumb.
What about MWE SV? Is it OK? Is it mostly IP?
"I'm subletting an apartment based on a $160,000 salary. The salary cut isn't going to break me, but it would have been nice to know before I signed the papers."
Then fucking leave the firm! If you're leasing based on a 160k salary, you're probably in our NY office. Less likely, but possibly DC or LA or Chicago. I think those are the only offices that pay (paid) summers on a 160k-scale. You damn no-good, useless idiot. I don't care what journal your on, what school you are attending, etc. You have poor judgment -- why were you posting on a gossip blog during work hours? Did you decide that, with a 15% salary cut, you should work 15% less or put in 15% less effort?
We will probably meet this summer; I hope you posted this from your work computer.
249 - MWE IP has been sinking for about 2 years. I'd stay far away. If you do end up there, you'll just end up leaving in a couple of years like almost everyone else.
I meant MWE SV, not IP.
--251
It's really sad that in 2009, the "boom boom room" days are still alive and well. The whores who sleep their way to get to the top are no better than that Jessica Cutler, Washingtonienne chick (albeit w/ a JD).
MWE summer associate here,
All firms have their skeletons, but all in all, Mcdermott seems like a good place to work. I don't think I've met all these people who go by initials (PP RJ PW AK), but all the partners and associates who I have met have left a really good impression. That's why I decided on this firm during OCI and why I accepted the summer position. Okay, the firm lowered our pay a few grand during a recession: so what? If that pay decrease means that one more summer associate will receive an offer, then to me it was well worth it.
Happy summer associate
I'm in OC and new here. If you heard the marketing materials and pitches given by management you would conclude that they are all diametrically opposed to the comments posted here.
I'm in OC and new here. If you heard the marketing materials and pitches given by management you would conclude that they are all diametrically opposed to the comments posted here.
Its too bad that the managing partner who drives a mustang can't get a single woman promoted here. Lovely. I guess its the other women partners who keep them down!
King & Spalding Socked with $90k Discovery Sanction
This is one of those "think before you leap" lessons. Lawyer A says Lawyer B had obstructed discovery and misrepresented facts to the court. Judge says he's going to figure out who's telling the truth. He did so. Essentially, the court lambasted K&S's counsel for accusing Duane Morris's counsel of being uncooperative in discovery. The order in the patent infringement suit of CBT Flint Partners v. Return Path, No. 1:07-CV-1822 (N.D. Ga. Aug. 2008) is here:
http://www.dailyreportonline.com/Editorial/PDF/PDF%20Archive/Cisco-order2-081908.pdf
and the an article about it, is here:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202423885428
Based upon my experience there, this is how they operate all of the time in all offices and in all practice areas - a cut throat, unprofessional, and, often, unethical law firm
Why would anyone in their right mind hire King and Spalding ?
Rj is gr8 if u like cr8z.
The Chicago office is full of miserable aholes.
254 - you are a clueless idiot. you'll realize how bad mwe is after a few more weeks.
It is not just promoting a woman. They periodically put a token one through. It is about promoting women routinely and in proportion to men. I accept that the pool of eligble women is small beause many don't stay long enough and I know plenty of women income partners that do not deserve to be promoted, but there are good attorneys. Some of the best and most promising women left for firms like Jones Day.
In my experience, the men are afraid of ambitious women and do everything they can to put them down.
BB does not work with senior women. He can get RS and others promoted. The women that worked with him as associates have a pattern of leaving.
254, it is very sweet that you are happy. And you should be. It is a bad economy and you have a summer job. I hope that it is enjoyable and that you get an offer. I hope that people treat you well. I hope that you never go through what I or others have gone through. But please accept this sincere input. They put on their best face for you during OCI and the week or two you have been at the firm. They will continue to be hospitable throughout the summer. They will go to great lengths to hide the ugly side of things. Bottom line: Summer is not reality. You won't really start to have a clue until you are 6-9 months into your first year at the earliest. Then maybe you will start to understand. None of this really matters because at least you will have a job. But you will reach a point where you say, I am not treated right and should start looking elsewhere.
R goes to the mat for his clients. Find a bad doc? Not a problem.
im glad that it is unviversally known that a fri ckin janitor gets the title of partner at mwe - perhaps that will explain why not a single one of these remaining schmucks can even get that title this year? i know that nobody will get promoted. so bascially maybe you can all be janitors?
When are the remaining rainmakers leaving, and where are they going? I've heard rumors, but want to know if anyone has hard facts.
its hard to go places when you have been sanctioned and have state bar investigations open
Who is the worst yeller in the DC office? It's a close call, but I'm taking 9th floor, church side.
269 -- PP, hand's down. I used to hear PP from circa BB's old office before PP moved to my neck of the woods.
McDermott's leaders are lying aholes. Is anyone really surpris ed by the firm's latest dick move? Screwing over employees is standard operating procedure at McDermott.
Clients can see that McDermott isn't doing well. Stealth layoffs, publice layoffs, more stealth layoffs, eliminating free coffee, asking partners to "retire", firing staff, screwing SA's at the last minute, voting for dual managing partners, desperately trying to squeeze every cent from clients, etc., means less business.
Anyone has any information on the MWE office in San Diego? Good/bad people? Lot of work these days?
266 -- you are an idiot. Making capital partner at MWE is very tough. Income partner, less so. That's true everywhere.
272, San Diego is an outpost office without any real power. It is not someplace to go to try to make a career.
270. I agree. You can hear it on 8, but a bit less clearly now that he is not as close to the stairwell opening. Yells, slams things, hot tempered. You can see the dark cloud coming. The best defense - close your door. By many accounts brutal to work with. Many on the team have developed the same traits. The CPs fight with each other. Shutting their doors does not dampen the sound from the hall or above/below. I used to envy that group because of its clients, work and autonomy. I am much less impressed now that I understand it better.
9th floor church side has improved just because you don't have two yellers sitting side by side. I think that is why the one person moved. Hated listening to it but has no clue that he might be looking in the mirror.
I wonder if AL was a yeller at Chadbourne?
The eighth floor has far too many closed door meetings involving screaming and shreiking. I never knew that grown men can scream like schoolgirls until I joined the firm. It's awful. The firm should invest in sound proof walls and doors.
277, they are fighting about document destruction
275 & 276.
AL jumps from firm to firm and he lost a few underlings recently. But lots of gunners want to work for him (probably b/c he has high profile clients)Who knows how much longer he intends to stay at McDermott.
I've never worked with or for PP. I know he's a screamer (I've heard him), but I think its just his own way of dealing with stress, and he apparently has no evil bone in his body. Word is that PP definitely takes care of his own (bonuses, promotions, part time gigs, etc.), much more so than the lit group! You say that the cap-partners fight there; if so, I've never heard that. I think there are 4 or 5 that do energy in the office and they seem like a young, friendly bunch.
Ask the associates in PP's group whether they are taken care of. Ask the associates who were pushed out whether they were taken care of. Out looking in, it might look better. Inside, not so much.
Fights audible in the hall
PP KI
MY KI
PP GM
PP on phone with RS
PP on phone with GL
MY GL
SD is almost entirely prosecution with a little corporate. Some outstanding attorneys in that office. However the office culture is POISON. Miserable environment, despite the pretty new space.
282, it seems like that is partly due to its size and lack of intergration with the rest of the firm. FM's focus on Houston means not enough time and attention on SD
280 -- 236/279 here.
i certainly only have a bird's-eye view but things really seem better in PP's group than other groups. here's what I see (all of which are very different from lit):
** more female income partners than most other groups (probably more women than men),
** income partners are a pretty stable bunch (certainly less attrition than other groups)
** homegrowns can make CP in his group... i think two or three in d.c. alone.
** he regularly puts his associates up for income partner (i know... not all of them, but a heck of a lot more than most groups)
** he has sent many income partners (and associates) to good clients and overseas offices
** he is worker-friendly (he has a part-timer and work-from-home income partner... where else do you see that at mcdermott, honestly)?
** his income and capital partners seem like a happy bunch (relative to other groups, at least) and certainly no obvious competition
** his associates are often at the high end of bonus scale, even though they aren't always at the top of the hours scale.
i'm not saying that everything is sunny in his group, i really wouldn't know, but the sun seems to shine in energy more than elsewhere.
disgruntled income partner
If you sit in an office that abuts PP, you can hear everything. The good, the bad and the ugly.
Does McDermott's DC office even have an IP lit group anymore?
They are trying to rebuild DC but the replacements are no where near the caliber of lawyers as those who left.
284 -
As an insider, you make good points but I am able to confirm it is not near to being true unless you are DR.
283 -- does FM have some management responsibility for SD? I thought he was Houston and OC. The SD office runs like a standalone. The tininess of mind is remarkable.
282
He would have had more of a role with SD if not for Houston. It is standalone and that is part of the problem. No continuity.
Al's high profile work is a dream and a good launching pad for other opportunities.
BB worked with senior associate woman MP (formerly MC) in the DC office, who then made income partner. Also with capital partner EM, from LA office.
Are you saying that BB got EM or MP promoted? I think EM was a CP before BB ever got there. I have nothing against BB and believe he was the better candidate for firm head. But his core team tends to be guys.
You can argue that the firm treats women and minorities well by pointing to income partner promotions, but 273 makes the right point. Making income partner is easy. You have a real problem if you cannot get that promotion. Making capital partner is the real test. That club is hard to get into unless you are a straight male.
of course ip is in shambles. there is no loyalty. i hear that tpm is interviewing new folks for dc and sv to replace the losers there who can't even send out their own frickin bill! they have never had a client; so oops you will be replaced soon...
of course ip is in shambles. there is no loyalty. i hear that tpm is interviewing new folks for dc and sv to replace the losers there who can't even send out their own frickin bill! they have never had a client; so oops you will be replaced soon...
296. I like many of the ip people. They aren't losers. They just aren't Ray Lupos.
PP does not always wash his hands in the bathroom, cleans the food from around his teeth using his finger, picks earwax out of his ears, looks at it and then crumbles it on the table. I have seen him do the latter two things at attorney lunchs and then proceed to dig back in to the community food by touching and putting back cookies, pizza and other food for the next person. Rule of thumb. Eat before he does and don't steal his pens.
What about the orthodox OSHA guy who says that tells women they should not work
im glad we can pay tpm, rj and pp so much (over $5.0M). this controversy is about $4800 per summer x 50 summers equals about $250,000. this is equivalent to one month of extra rent on the two empty old sv buildings, the empty new san diego office, the empty space in century city and the 2/3 vacant new silicon valley space. and oc, well, that place lost trial and so many other groups, its basically a ton of rent there too.
im glad bk made this decision. im all for saving money (since i'm an income partner wanting a bonus more than the janitor) but perhaps we could tax the mgmt committee for leaving us to shoulder the burden of all this extra space.
--concerned income partner posting from airport kiosk so that the mwe it people don't catch me - gotta love it!
im glad we can pay tpm, rj and pp so much (over $5.0M). this controversy is about $4800 per summer x 50 summers equals about $250,000. this is equivalent to one month of extra rent on the two empty old sv buildings, the empty new san diego office, the empty space in century city and the 2/3 vacant new silicon valley space. and oc, well, that place lost trial and so many other groups, its basically a ton of rent there too.
im glad bk made this decision. im all for saving money (since i'm an income partner wanting a bonus more than the janitor) but perhaps we could tax the mgmt committee for leaving us to shoulder the burden of all this extra space.
--concerned income partner posting from airport kiosk so that the mwe it people don't catch me - gotta love it!
If certain people find this 160K apartment SA, he'll no longer have to worry about it, ever again......
California is a bust. I wonder if Eliot, Eric, and others regret leaving.
They will figure it out. This guy likely said something to at least one person he thought he could trust. That person will spill it.
Word to associates: confide in your peers at your own risk. Many attorneys love the power that comes with confiding a secret. You might think you are liked and that people would not do that to you, but it is not the case.
MWE has many stool pidgeons that love to curry favor with management. This trait is more pronounced now that people are fighting for work or jobs.
I don't think BK made this choice. She does not have that kind of clout. Maybe LK, DR, etc.
The point about client pressure is interesting. I know that clients are pressing for discounts. It appears that MWE's response is to charge an N rate and discount that, thereby protecting the T rate. So they have not really taken a hit.
no its a man ceo bk
OH, sorry. I think of her when I think recruiting. Are you sure. In the past, the partners heading recruiting made these choices with Harvey.
Re: Winston - My friends at Winston got screwed. They have an 8 week summer program. They are paying us less money than McDermott. I will take McDermott's 10 week compensation any day.
A relieved McDermott summer associate. $26,000 baby!!
but mwe lies. that is the problem. they never stop. from mentoring, clients, marketing, comp and promo, it never stops
309, that is the exact right attitude. It sucks to learn on the day you show up that they are not paying what you expected, but at least you have a job. Just remember what this felt like so that you don't do the same thing 15 years from now.
310
Of course they lie. They always have. And when confronted with the truth, the leaders won't own their decisions. They obfuscate instead. They are cowards. Summers made a mistake by not locking in salary this spring before they got there. They might not have got the number they wanted but at least they would have know and could have planned. The apartment rented would not have made the same mistake. What should we take from all this? That we have to look out for ourselves and cannot believe anything anyone says. Do what you can to survive and have a game plan for when they screw you.
312, are you leaving? hope so because the mgmt committee, all 30 FAT CATS that go around the world on mwe's dime and can't decide anything, are going to eat up all of our money and careers; why should they care if they plan to retire?
I am always looking to leave.
What about you 312?
I meant 313
RJ is a nutcase. PP seems at least somewhat sane.
Agree with you there. RJ is an odd little man.
Why do so many clients allow Mcdermott to bill in 15 minute increments?
the three-tiered client structure is a joke and mwe needs to lose it. mwe is gonna fire about a third of its attorneys soon. RJ is a quack and is not impressive. is he off the meds?
poor sv. once that a single ip case settles, then what? maybe we can sublet our space too...
I think if clients knew that the firm has three biling rates for each attorney and that there are many large companies, including PS's major oil company, who get the lowest rate, those paying the high N rate would be so angry. Every client should demand the RS rate.
292:
Ask HS or RZ.
DC Energy are like "Gladiators." I've never seen such aggressive, angry, I want all the credit and all the attention pathetics in one group. There are a few exceptions and I don't know how they've lasted as long as they have.
PP's self-esteem is in the toilet - and this manifests itself in the screaming down the halls - notice me - I'm a winner - aren't I? The newest partners don't look so slappy happy anymore.
MY looks and acts like the pig he is. And his pom pom girl bride to be was moved to another department so that it didn't look like yet another case of nepotism, which runs rampant throughout the firm. She's actually where she should be now for her talents.
324: If a firm were looking to recruit talent, is there anyone good that might be open to a move?
would someone please twist open their decoder ring and translate the initials so we don't have to keep going to the website to figure out who the players are.
Typical MWE, you need to sleep ahead to get ahead. I'm so happy for the all the various committees; all the time spent on them is really designed to disguise the truth!
Web wont work for the innocents who have left. This is a private argument appearing in public just so people can see that the place is a mess and maybe shame some people to change.
279
Is stress a good excuse?
Dorn and Flynn are good candidates
MWE partners will never change. They are only persuaded by $$$. Do they care about mentoring, client development, being a good role model in their community, recruiting, firm admin, etc? No way jose. All we get are partners who like to complain; "Boy it really sucks I have to go to Brussels on the firm's dime along with 50 other FAT CATS to a firm management meeting... Life is so hard."
Gotta love it!
331 Dont you think a caveat is in order. It isn't all partners. Just the chosen elite who should not really be making all these decisions because they are no longer based in reality. When they start inviting up and comers, then I can respect them.
How are the blow hards in London doing?
You are dreaming if you think anything is going to change. ATL was reporting on these same issues back in August of 2006--the cheapness, the turmoil in the ranks, the force-outs, etc.:
McDermott Will & Emery, a firm that has experienced significant revenue and profit growth over the past few years. According to a lengthy expose in The American Lawyer, however, some of that success has been driven by good old-fashioned tightwaditude:
[McDermott has a] miserly attitude, say a dozen former partners, many of whom spoke on condition of anonymity. Sources say that McDermott's financial success masks a culture marked by antagonism, where existing partners and clients are pushed out to make room for new ones, and where a lack of cohesion stymies efforts to build practices. They also note the departures, since 2005, of firm leaders in M&A, private equity, intellectual property, and restructuring.
Now for the good stuff -- examples of MWE's cheapness:
[F]ormer partners swap stories about the firm's stinginess the way kids swap baseball cards: Instead of getting a decorating allowance for their office, they had to buy their own desks. Instead of the firm budgeting enough for a holiday party, partners in many offices got a bill each December for the upcoming festivities. They also had to pay their own expenses when they visited clients.
We've excerpted the juiciest bits, so you don't have to read the whole long article. Continued cattiness, after the jump.
Here's the money quote:
McDermott has a reputation for pushing out existing lawyers and clients in order to achieve its [financial] goals. The firm is "like a worm," says one former partner, describing the arrivals and departures. "You feed it in the front, and it shits out the rear."
Actually, on second thought, this one's even better:
"McDermott gives you no help finding clients or growing your practice," says one ex-partner. There's little cross-selling, because most people don't want to share origination credit. "A McDermott partner would rather introduce you to his mistress than his clients," says another ex-partner.
Ok 334, you have a point.
PP loves the adoration of young women that run to him for fatherly protection. He is good at that. His track record is less stellar when it comes to equals.
as a new income partner here -ie shit monkey - i can tell you that this info from the am law article is directly on point; i joined after 2006 and the miserly spirit is alive and well; not to help clients but to line the pockets of the select few.
but hey, we knew this coming in, and nobody made any qualms about telling me that i would get replaced.
Does anyone have anything nice to say about McDermott?
McDermott is a hellhole.
RJ has no women around him. SM drove them all away before his wife figured out what a cad he is.
PP was at least at one point more than a father to a young underling. But I only have that as hearsay - reliable hearsay, though.
He doesn't think he has equals.
293 -- BB did help MP get promoted. Of course EM was already a capital partner -- the point is just that he doesn't fail to work with "senior women." His core team now includes several young female associates as well. Yes, a couple who worked with him wound up leaving -- and did pretty well for themselves. Associates leave firms, you know.
who likes fm
Lest anyone take too much joy in the beating certain men are getting, there are plenty of women capital partners that are pretty awful:
PW
CG
SF
to name a few
342 - BB needs to get out and meet more people. For someone helping to manage an office, he is too insulated from the masses.
IMHO, not handsome, small package, manners of chimp. Do you really think anyone paid him any attention?
Bitter secretary talking.
I have seen PP with his wife at sailing, holiday party, summer BBQs, battle of bands. I think he really loves his wife.
That hearsay begs the question, why would he be sending amorous emails when the woman reads everything and lacks all sense of discretion?
These anti-PP / anti-EDM comments are coming from a few (more likely one) former member who tried and tried and tried, but who just couldn't cut it.
No matter what might be motivating the comments, no one is saying he's wrong.
Jerry ... Jerry ... Jerry !
?
Pump up the jam
Pump it up
While your feet are stompin'
And the jam is pumpin'
Look at here the crowd is jumpin'
Pump it up a little more
Get the party going on the dance floor
Seek us that's where the party's at
And you'll find out if you're too bad
I don't want a place to stay
Get your boody on the floor tonight
Make my day
I don't want a place to stay
Get your boody on the floor tonight
Make my day
Make my day
Make my day
Make my day
Make my day
I think his bride to be is a great addition to recruiting. Friendly and earnest. It is a good fit and good for the firm.
355--you may have intended to compliment the young bride-to-be, but you just verified the nepotism claim instead. How much recruiting does MWE need to do now and in the near term? Would you have hired any recruiter right now, if there wasn't a close personal connection? The state of things appears to be that MWE is still trying to reconcile its attorney strength to the available hours, and will likely be shedding, not adding, attorneys. I doubt that MWE recruiting is terribly busy.
I think a good indication of MWE's atmosphere is that on most ATL threads, people from other firms attack the firm at issue. But in MWE's case, most of the attacking is done by its own lawyers. Not to mention that you can actually see where a partner was reading the thread, got annoyed, and lashed out at the comments. It really is amazing.
The firm had an open position. They were actively looking to replace someone that went to Akin. She got it. I don't think the couple was really out at that time, although getting caught by RJ making out in NYC probably meant it was kind of known. She went to a law school that the firm likes, she was a good summer and liked as an associate. I don't know if she was the best candidate as I don't know who else they interviewed. I think she was qualified. There are still laterals attempting to come over from other sinking ships and someone has to take care of the summers. Maybe she gets cut as demand drops. Who knows, but that is not the same as saying she got a job because of her boyfriend.
The firm treats people like dirt. Is anyone surprised that we take it out here?
I fucking hate McTTT. That shithole ruined my career.
MWE is an awful firm. It's full of lying aholes.
I think MWE made the decision to reduce summer pay with the belief that it needs to manage costs. It was probably the right thing to do if you are laying people off. The reason why MWE gets killed on this site is because it has a tin ear to fairness.
In this case, the fair thing to do was to tell summers as soon as possible so that they could react in the way most appropriate for them. For most summers, this would have involved swollowing the reduction like a bitter pill because they had no other choice. The firm probably thought that all summers lacked a choice due to the economy so no one got harmed. This is where they went wrong.
A summer might have elected to do something different than take the pay cut. The best example would be the summers that split. They might have been able to go the other firm for longer or the entire summer and collect the $160K rate. They might have elected to go to the higher paying firm for the first part of the summer in order to increase the odds of getting an offer there instead of capitulating to MWE demands that they split at MWE first. They might have budgeted differently.
The firm is very paternalistic. It thinks it knows best for everyone. If you keep making choices for people and doing so in a way that prevents them from feeling respect or control, you will get beaten. Every wrong will be reported on this site and everyone who has been mistreated in a comparable way will take the opportunity to launch their own grenades.
The firm controls what happens here. If you don't like showing up on this site, then change your own behavior.
MWE is not miserly when it comes to paying for partners' extra marital affairs. Before DMT finally left in a tantrum, the firm reimbursed RVL for every lunch, dinner, hotel, etc. that were disguised as necessary for admin. Even after her departure, the firm was still picking up these tabs for a long time. Now we pay the man a million a year for what? He contributed to the infighting for years and along with TPM let the department to fall apart. Now we are stuck with a completely disfunctional group. It's really depressing how things have developed.
Anyone care to comment about the joke of a Houston office?
101 - sublet rents, and rents in general are not quite at 2004 levels. Getting there....
Agree with 362! Except I'm not sure it's paternalism. I call it 'taking advantage'.
364 - I am not in the Houston office but we are told that Fm is doing a great job getting started. What have you heard?
Any reports on similar scandalous behavior in the Chicago office?
The Houston office is a failure.
What makes it a failure?
Houston office has partners with 10 gallon hats and who are unable to bring in business, even in the booming energy field.
Utter failures. The place is a siphon for firm wide money.
MWE is a joke. Associates should prepare for the coming axe.
MWE is a joke. Associates should prepare for the coming axe.
Hasn't having the Houston office been helpful in getting IP cases that are filed in the Eastern District of Texas?
374 - That work isn't making its way to the other offices
The headsman is coming for MWE associates.
You have been forewarned; now is the time to lateral, whether you like it or not.
How was the 11 a.m. meeting today?
324: you are an evil person -- the sort who probabaly kills puppies and eats babies.
All of this hatred aimed at the firm is no coincidence: MWE has a lot of awful people.
379
They reap what they sow. There is a lot of pent up anger and no internal outlet. ABL is therapy for those that have been bullied, humiliated, and made to feel like they have no value.
A lemming
That is disturbing and gross 378-ES.
So, as a lateral female, should I look elsewhere? I was impressed by their offer of being a non equity partner in the Trial group...
The place is terrible regardless of your gender.
338 LOL They truly reap what they sow. MWE is a hellhole on so many evels. Ask anyone that works there now.
338 LOL They truly reap what they sow. MWE is a hellhole on so many levels. Ask anyone that works there now.
350 & 351 -- He is wrong. MWE is a great place to work. If people had to show their face, they would not say these comments in public.
I have to laugh at 386. MWE is AWFUL.
386
Anonymity makes it easier to say what you feel. Many might not say what is on their minds but for that, hwoever, this does not mean that they aren't thinking it or that their views aren't accurate. If JS walked into their office and confronted them in this environment, many people would smile and deny. What else can you do when you need the money?
I have expressed my views and would own every comment on here if I had to. By conveying my opiinions accurately based on my experiences, I protect myself should the guest status be peirced. It would be embarrassing but I don't think the firm could do much about it because I could provide support for every opinion expressed. In the long run, going after people that are being truthful just yields the truth. A witch hunt/lawsuit by the firm would just produce a more solid record of the harrassment, yelling, lying, infighting, discussed on ABL. I don't think the firm wants that. It would take away the glimmer of deniability they have now (eg the post about not cutting it).
No one is saying you cannot like the firm. That is your opinion. My opinion is different. When I read what is on this site about the firm, my reaction is that a large majority of the bad news is accurate. Each person reading can decide for themselves. If someone wants to defend the firm, have at it.
382, it depends. If you need the job in this economy take it and hope that your experience will be different. If it is not, then leave once the job market improves. If you can find something else, by all means, consider it.
I would like to know where I can lateral to as a MWE associate. I have had enough of this hellhole and the screaming partners.
Getting offered non equity partnership is simply not enough when you get shat on by capital partners.
388: I have no doubt you are sincere, anonymous or not. However, in addition to “anonymity mak[ing] it easier to say what you feel,” it also makes it easier to sling some very personal and hurtful mud at people with impunity, which others have done here with much glee. I think it only brings shame upon those posters. I don’t have a problem with people complaining about the firm or the work environment; lord knows it sucks at times (I am an income partner in DC, been here many years, and am fairly happy with the firm). But I do not think it has to get gutter-level. I would save that for Perez or Page Six.
On another topic, I think that, oddly, you give the firm too much credit. I don't think that any law firm is going to try to track you down, or sue ATL to review your IP address or any of that shit. First, I doubt they care that much about these posts to do that. Second, it would probably be fruitless and just draw more unwarranted attention to this thread.
What troubles me about this thread, and others like it, that call out firms, is that all firms have these kinds of family secrets -- airing them in this forum runs the risk that individual comments (especially if names are named) get picked up in google searches. Also, although you wouldn't know it from the commentators many reputable lawyers troll the site -- i have to say i've been absolutely horrified by this thread, completely trashing a firm where one works. At least names weren't used as in some of the other threads.
Likewise, I agree that no one will pierce the anonymity of a "guest" by subpeona -- However, it's easy enough to pick up traffic from WORK computers, and the use of a thumbnail avatar or login on a work computer is easy easy to pick up remotely. I have to say, if I were advising the management team at MWE or QE, I would absolutely encourage them to shut this trash down, not because of the hurt feelings, -- but disclosures of potentially fradulent and perhaps unethical behavior like the three billing rate tiers can lead to very big complications. Finley Kumble was a firm that ran into big criminal problems over this (and other billing practices, like billing one's time to more than one client ).
McDermott should stop practicing "potentially fradulent and perhaps unethical behavior." The frustration that associates at McDermott feel is totally understandable. They want their firm to be top tier, they provide suggestions to the firm to make it better (i.e. stop engaging in fradulent and unethical behavior) and in response they are either harassed, black listed and/or diminished. McDermott may only change if it starts losing clients. Otherwise, it appears to pay very well to be engaged in the fradulent and unethical behavior described in ATL.
What the hell are you talking about? or more accurately - you don't know what the hell you are talking about. There is nothing unusual, or unethical, about having different rate structures. Almost all firms have different rate structures. Client know this and often negotiate for better rates (discounts). That is why large clients (of all firms) often try to negotiate "most favored nations" clauses in their engagement letters - so they will always get the best rates. There is nothing "fradulent" in any of this. You all need to take a business class.
393,
Actually, the partners in many law firms need to take a business class or two; they simply have no idea on what to do in an economy like this other than downsize everything except PPP.
I've been reading the Wolf Block coverage, and there's a lot of discussion of how, in a law firm, people are the only asset. Normally businesses make an effort to take good care of their assets -- you wouldn't see a mechanic leave tools out in the weather or a chef put their knives in a dishwasher. At MWE, 95% of the firm's "assets" are treated remarkably badly. But with the management they've got, what else can you expect?
It seems to work for MWE to treat its people poorly. What incentive do they have to change?
It seems to work for MWE to treat its people poorly. What incentive do they have to change?
397
None. The only goal is maintaining PPP.
That's why MWE is so cheap as to require partners to pay for their business trips to Brussels.
You know what is really funny?
EVERY WORD ON THE FRICKIN BLOG IS TRUE.
NOBODY COMES TO MWE'S RESCUE.
YOU SHOULD ALL BE FIRED.
399: i'm glad to come to mcdermott's rescue.
frankly, i can't understand why people are wasting so much energy bashing mcdermott. many of the firm's bashers claim to have worked for mcdermott for a while, which makes me wonder why a good attorney would stay longterm in a bad situation. the answer, it seems, is quite simple: either (a) mcdermott is not as bad as the bashers are saying, or (b) the attorneys bashing the firm aren't good enough to find better employ. perhaps it's a mixture of both, but my thought is that it is more likely the latter.
400
Ever stop to think that some of the posters might be capital partners that are disgruntled? The partnership agreement makes it very hard to leave without taking a hit to the wallet. If you are service capital partner, it is even harder. Not every capital partner is on the management committee and many have suffered indignities at the hands of those who are.
There are plenty of CPs that have seen their units cut while the big cheese line their wallets. Many people have pretty strong feelings about those making such comp decisions. Many of the people talked about here have been or were on the comp committee.
Don't be so sure that it is a bunch of losers posting.
What is there to defend? Let's look at the facts: (1) all of the major revenue generating offices including NY, Chi, SVY, and DC are already 60% off adjusted forecasts for 2009; (2) most of MWE's top revenue generators have already defected (see posts above regarding DC); (3) a large portion of the summers will not get offers; (4) MWE has implicitly condoned a culture that encourages partner back stabbing; (5) MWE has an established history of sexual harassment; (6) the firm does very little to help associates and income partners to grow or develop their business; (7) there will be another round of stealth layoffs; and (8) by fall '09 the senior members of the DC brotherhood will leave, leaving only a group of over compensated service partners without any work.
Many of us are still here because of our experiences during prior management. That firm, however, is long gone and I hope to be leaving soon as well.
Have people heard how bad the CP comp really is?
The negative comments made on this blog capture the feelings of a very small number of MWE employees (my guess is that the negative comments were all written by the same 1-2 people). MWE has a nice culture with a ton of super CPs, IPs, and Associates.
Become an adult. If you have issues, deal with them face to face, or send a letter on your letterhead.
In the long run, you can't run from the fundamentals. When you are an associate you must build your base of legal knowledge and develop your practice skills. To become a secure partner you must also develop client relationships and make some rain you can call your own; otherwise you will be stuck in an insecure income partner or service partner level and compensated disproportionately less than if you get a few clients, although important service skills can add a great deal of security. Fundamentals don't change from firm to firm although the players and the formula change a bit. If you excel at the fundamentals you will advance and will find opportunities despite other headwinds noted on this blog. After working at other law firms I have found that MWE has a reasonable balance among all these factors and offers a stable platform to achieve what you are capable of achieving; the grass is greener at very few other firms. There has been a lack of charismatic leadership and vision and various missteps, but the stability of a diversified client base without overreliance on the boom and bust work will serve the firm well in the coming years. The Firm's profitability has been quite substantial especially given its diversified mix of services with very large shares of tax, benefits, T&E, health, and with a relatively early-stage New York presence compared to other national firms. The human problems noted on this blog exist at all sizable companies and MWE seems to have its share of whiners that are focusing on things other than the fundamentals for advancement and job security. These people should refocus their career goals and marketing efforts and place less importance on transitory office politics. After a certain point no one other than you really cares if you make $50K or $100K more or less per year or even if you make capital partner status, and if you rely on intrafirm relationships rather than fundamental achievement to do so, then shame on you.
It doesn't matter how many different people posted; it's the substance that counts.
405: Have you taken a survey lately? You have no way of knowing how people feel. The firm never asks.
My guess is 405 (and 407) don't believe that the misery of your daily existence is a 'fundamental'. I'd also hazard a guess that 407 is insulated from it by an army of ass-kissing flunkies. Just my take! I'm gone, and in hindsight I now realize I was even more miserable than I thought I was, and I thought I was pretty miserable.
410 is right. Being at MWE is like being in abusive relationship. The management at MWE pulls its people down to make themselves feel better. You don't know how bad it is until you leave. The grass is much, much greener.
Wow 393,
That's quite a statement.
i may not have been very clear, and I apologize for that (but I have no desire to paint any firm with hypothetical unethical behaviors) but it seems our views of ethical billing behavior, client expectation and the appropriate standard of professionalism for attorneys may be at variance.
To change focus slightly, If all law firms agreed to charge a certain price, would that make it okay to do, in your opinion?
I do agree that I require outside counsel to charge me the best rate they charge to anyone else as a matter of precaution and good practice, but we've never seen any firm we hire actually tell us about it. Plus almost all the firms we work with have disclosed only one rate to us absent some commitment to "volume." It would be interesting to learn if your view of "all the firms" incorporate any who have told me they only have one.
Best,
391
Sorry folks but these postings are by MWE insiders with the desperate hope that management will turn this fuckin loser firm around. If it doesn't, then yes, a lot of us income partners will get laid off. And yes, we will make less money and we will just have to be miserable until we can hopefully get a new job.
Quick question: Has anyone gotten feedback from JS or PS explaining what the firm intends to do to deal with the poor morale?
I thought JC was supposed to be some big rainmaker in Houston. Isn't he feeding the office?
Say "morale" to the people in charge and you'll just see exasperation. You have a job! Be happy for that and shut your pie hole!
That is my impression too, but I was wondering if I was alone. It is disappointing. Do you remember all the speeches that TW made to each summer class about how special they were and how the firm recruits the best of the best? How did we all become so worthless?
Dear Mr. Fundamentals,
I have been thinking about your comment and realized it is based on a faulty premise. Everyone would like to be in a system where fundamentals carry the day. But there are many examples that prove that politics always gets in the way at McDermott.
Look at the number of talented trial people that can't get promoted because PW doesn't fight for them. The trial people that get promoted do so because other people support the nomination (MW, KP, MC)
People can't get promoted because someone on a committee, usually comp, hates the partner sponsoring the candidate.
If you are having sex with someone senior, you get better assignments, better reviews, better hours, flexibility to enjoy a date night while someone else finishes your work.
The ARC is all about who you know. If you have someone that can tell your story on the ARC, you are all set. The people without a representative lose out. Same is true with income partner comp and reviews.
If you are a guy, partners like CW, TW, RJ, RL cultivate your progression. They rarely, if ever, take the time to help out women.
If you are gay, forget about being viewed by fundamentals. Very few openly gay people make it. The few that did were not out until they were promoted. I heard recently that most of the people involved in the GLB committee have been let go.
Capital partners mislead income partners and associates into believing that they have to open billable matters that they developed under the capital partner's name instead of their own. The capital partner takes credit for the success and tells people that the junior person could not do it without him.
You may be running a project and even brought the project into the firm, but God forbid if you try to open a new matter without one of the big wigs telling you it is his client and his matter and you get no credit.
You are forbidden from asking for credit for projects you are running. I had many multi-million dollar successes that my partner took credit for even though he did not bill an hour to the project and couldn't tell you anything about the matter.
What I learned is the fundamentals matter, not because they got me anything at MWE, but because they help to get out and hopefully with enough client respect and much better billing rates to enable a few of those clients to follow.
Hate to go back to respond to 39/113, but I must.
39/113, staff attorney monkey member here. I truly understand your dilemma. It's soooo much easier to mock us staff attorney monkeys than to admit that you're nothing more than a glorified, yes-man, bitch-ho (assuming you're lucky enough to get the high-paying ho gig). And if you didn't, you'd simply be a poor, lame-ass, yes-man, bitch ho monkey looking for a contract attorney gig. Oh, the horror.
And as for your #131 comment about staff attorney monkey 1's mother, it really shows off your class (or lack thereof). But. . . I truly doubt that you'd be pounding his mom in the ass. PLEASE, you ain't that big to be able to "pound" anything. (Seems like you have a bad tendency of thinking large about yourself.) Plus, staff attorney's mother, like most women who have class, prefers someone with balls.
Wish you all the best with your career(s).
410 is totally on point.
Once again, nothing here is wrong. Its all true.
We keep talking about CW, TW, RL, RJ, BB, PP. These guys are the "old school" leaders who perpetuate the nepotism, all male promotion (unless you happen to sleeping with one of them) and firmly established the lack of morale. Who are the next leaders in the DC office? Or is the office going bust once these guys retire (soon)?
A lot of people posting here are going buh-bye, associates and staffers.
I posted comments. I was not laid off.
There are a huge number of comments on this blog that are total speculation, and many are filled with nasty language that should be banned from this site. MWE is a solid firm, with a great reputation.
In all due respect, the firm provides many fine services and has many fine lawyers, but the comments on this site show that there is a difference of opinion on how people are treated and whether it is a nice place to work. You seem to be interested in the feedback provided here. Perhaps you will make the changes needed to fix the problems discussed.
Many of these comments were typed by the same 2-3 people, I am certain of that.
And?
418
It's Mr. Fundamentals
If you make yourself valuable to clients by timeliness, competence and creativity, the rest takes care of itself over the long term. This is difficult to do when you are inexperienced, and your first 5 years of practicing law may indeed be directed toward pleasing senior lawyers within the firm rather than clients, but even in those slave-galley circumstances you can make yourself very useful by diligence and skill development without demeaning yourself. It can be very time consuming and demanding but presumably you can do it if you were hired by a big law firm in the first place. Also you may get demoralized by seeing others appear to advance based on factors other than merit from time to time; this happens in all walks of like including SCOTUS but persistence over a long period of time is the answer.
Mr. Fundamentals
425 - Alternative points of view are welcome. A dialogue would be quite interesting.
426 - Pointing to the number of posters is not a meaningful rebuttal to the content of the comments. When you go to court, do you say, your honor, the plaintiff is wrong because he makes 3 arguments?
Also, 426, if you are able to feel such certainty about the identities of the "2-3 people" that posted the comments, that suggests that there is sufficient truth to the comments here to allow you to recognize who is making them. If the comments are false, everyone would be shrugging their shoulders wondering where all this hostility is coming from. You seem to know exactly what they are talking about. Otherwise, how could you be so certain? You cannot have it both ways.
If you really do know with certainty who is posting, then that means you were involved and need to ask yourself, what did I or someone else at the firm do to mistreat or disrespect someone enough to cause the comments posted. We all know that these kinds of comments do not evolve as a result of the occassional slite. You can say the commenters were losers, couldn't cut it, or whatever, but that is not a complete explanation. You or someone else at the firm did something to push people to a point where they are angry or hurt enough to express these emotions.
If you are disappointed about what commenters are saying, welcome to their misery. Now fix the problem.
Thank you Mr. Fundamentals.
Mr Fundamentals is correct - it's all about the fundamentals.
It's fundamental that women attorneys should exchange sexual favors for preferential treatment and advancement.
It's fundamental that minority attorneys should just "go somewhere they'd fit in better."
It's fundamental that junior attorneys should be assigned to clean up partner messes, and instructed not to bill the client for it, lest the partner be questioned for writing off excessive time.
It's fundamental that those same junior attorneys should be disciplined (reduced compensation, threat of dismissal, dismissal) for having below-standard hours.
It's fundamental that the firm should instruct junior attorneys to report partners that instruct them to work without billing their time.
It's fundamental that junior attorneys know better than to fall for this trap.
You're right, it is all about the fundamentals!
269, 270
Would you rather have screaming or intensity that is non-stop? I spoke with someone who worked for GM when we was director of the CFTC, and they said his emails started flying around the country to his staff at 3am each day, and he was always the last to leave the office. His phone rings off the hook. I heard he is only interested in gunners. Don't let the southern drawl fool you.
I would take intensity any day if the work is good.
i love finding nemo
To 431
In every large organization there will be a few cases of inappropriate sexual behavior and bias against certain personal characteristics. I do not think you can legitimately say thosse issues are widespread and characteristic of a significant part of the firm. Generally those incidents come back to bite the firms in the form of financial settlements to departing persons with legitimate complaints, and very often there are bad consequences for the partner involved. As to your last few comments about junior associates cleaning up messes or being unfairly forced to work nonbillable time, you may have a legitimate point that the culture of aversion to write-offs is a problem, and I would be interested to know if this has changed at many firms or is the culture just different at MWE. Back in the day, at large firms write-offs of junior associate time were commonly accepted as part of the learning curve, and the partner writing off time did not get dinged unless there was a pattern of abusing write-offs. You can make a note of this in your annual review andit and it may help you if your work is otherwise exemplary; if not, it is just another excuse.
But it seems you have a bug up your hiney about an intraoffice affair or two and you should let that one go -- the partner involved always gets burned in the end. Competence, timeliness, giving the client or partner more than they expected (in legal work) and persistence will pay off over the long haul.
Mr. Fundamentals
I am not 431. In my experience, the gender/sexual issues mentioned are real and pronounced.
Also, I have not seen anyone get burned for their behavior.
Mr. Fundamentals:
If you want to build a legal career, it is so difficult to pursue claims against firms for hostile work environment, etc. Word gets out when lawyers complain. The legal community is small. I have seen so many instances where someone's wife, son, classmate works at the firm you want to move to in order to get away from the glass ceiling, preditor, etc. and where that person uses their contacts to check you out. You risk getting a bad reputation for making "needless trouble".
Even on ATL, there are good examples of people who stuck their neck out at the sacrafice of certain career options. Look at Andrew Charney. I have no idea about his facts or whether he is where he wants to be. But the fact that I know his name and that he complained highlights the point.
I think people get away with bad behavior because those harmed have no incentive to complain unless they are really ready to never work in big law again.
432,
Sure, it might be better if he drafted e-mails at 3 a.m. and waited to send them until later in the morning. That freaks people out less. But if he is working hard and it is keeping people busy, then it is tough to see that as a fault.
On the gunner point, ambition sometimes makes people commit in a way that is complementary to the partner's desire to grow his book. I am sure there is pressure on GM to bring in business and he wants people that will work hard for him. Again. tough to see how this is per se a bad thing. If people don't want the kind of like that his work demands, they should ask to work for others.
Look 438
Young people like you and Mr. Charney should just stick to the fundamentals and leave all the sexuality and other issues at the doors; there will always be some bad behavior and you need to tune it out rather than wasting your time and mental energy on it. If you have a thin skin you will not make it too far in this business or in many other businesses. Think of what you could have accomplished with the hours you have spent thinking talking and writing about that nonsense. Just say no and ignore it and stick to your knitting. In most cases you will have plenty of opportunities to advance nonetheless; there are legions of true stories of associates who couldn't get along with hot-shot Partner A (the jerk with the big billing book at present, who can't keep his zipper up), then working in the backwaters for Partner B (a reasonable person but lower on the totem pole) and still getting plenty of good opportunities over time. If you are doing great work people will notice eventually. The clients are the final arbiters in the long run. True, this doesn't always work out and sometimes you lose, but that too is one of the fundamentals:
Life isn't fair
There is no such thing as a free lunch
Waste not, want not
I could go on
Mr. F
Duh, that is exactly what I have done. Doesn't make it right, though.
i agree with mr. fundamentals that for women to advance at mcdermott, they have to be willing to climb the right "corporate ladder." i'm just hoping its mine.
Jimmy Neutron rocks!