Anyone who posts first is an unemployed TTT loser.

Mmmm, taste the $500 of prestige.

why even bother giving $500?

what a slap in the face.

i tip my barber more than that.

if this is the proof you needed to show that s&c cares nothing about you as an assoc, you probably need to consider a new line of work altogether. s&c isn't exactly known for its tlc approach morons.

my firm's severance is like double that.

2 - No, rather a 3L with an October start date and little to do between now and the beginning of BarBri classes.

-1st-

Whoa!!!!!

The ship be sinking...

Spend that $500 on one hour of professional services, it will feel more like a bonus.

Hmmm, I guess the $500 can cover a Fathers' day gift next month?

Why is everone so surprised? after all, people who are used to get $2 million per year would not give it up for some would be ex-s&c in 5 years. Those who survive and make partners would care because they would do the same. To assume otherwise is just being naive or dumb or overestimate the value of 1-3 year associates.

hahaha. try paying for your wife's shrink with that.

well at least $500 is still real money and not like they just got some cheap logo bath towel from Bill Murray...

Why do associates keep looking at PPP's and complaining that they aren't getting their slice of the pie? Associates are not owners of a business. They are employees. I will never understand why associates feel like they are entitled to a portion of the profits because they work REALLY hard. If you want to share in the profits, go start your own business. That is one of the luxuries of being your own boss. I see a story about S&C associates being "furious" that their special bonuses were low this year. Special bonuses? Are you fucking kidding me? We are all sitting here holding our breath and praying to Xenu that our salaries don't get cut, and some cocky bastards at S&C are upset that their Spring bonus is low? I have no compassion for those laid off there.

The summer budget is not $500 per summer associate, it's per associate.

With that $500 bonus, you have enough money to talk to a partner for 1/2 an hour. Exciting.

Assuming that STB and S&C have 10 week programs, then aren't the lunch deals about the same? 1 lunch per week x 10 weeks x $65 per lunch = 650 dollars.

Sure, at S&C you can have "unlimited" lunches, but a $500 hard cap over 10 weeks amounts to 10 bucks per lunch. That's a lot of BK Whoppers.

Just another reason why NYC < Texas

Why do associates keep looking at PPP's and complaining that they aren't getting their slice of the pie? Associates are not owners of a business. They are employees. I will never understand why associates feel like they are entitled to a portion of the profits because they work REALLY hard. If you want to share in the profits, go start your own business. That is one of the luxuries of being your own boss. I see a story about S&C associates being "furious" that their special bonuses were low this year. Special bonuses? Are you fucking kidding me? We are all sitting here holding our breath and praying to Xenu that our salaries don't get cut, and some cocky bastards at S&C are upset that their Spring bonus is low? I have no compassion for those laid off there.

Care for a concrete example of how incompetent the partners and business managers at Thompson Hine are?

1) Feb. 12th - Thompson Hine press release hyping the idea that there are many superior alternatives to layoffs -

http://www.thompsonhine.com/publications/publication1705.html

2) Feb. 19th - Seven days later Thompson Hine does a large round of layoffs AND slashes associate pay. -

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2009/02/thompson-hine-cuts-associate-pay.html

When the Feb. 12th release came out, the clear implication to Thompson Hine employees was that our firm was committed to finding alternatives to layoffs (even their own press release talked about the damaging effects of layoffs).

We'd been having stealth layoffs for months and were desperate for reassurance. Seven days later, they cut through the ranks of associates and staff like a hot knife through butter.

Zero information was presented about what alternatives to layoffs were considered. Zero information was presented as to why layoffs and paycuts were superior to the alternatives the firm itself suggested.

THOMPSON HINE message to clients - Even we won't follow our own advice! But you should still pay us for that advice!

Oh the same...morale is low? really? $200K for a 28 year old cocky grad is really insulting...how dare those bastard partners thinking about their own families and ttheir own bank accounts!!!!!!

Oh the shame...morale is low? really? $200K for a 28 year old cocky grad is really insulting...how dare those bastard partners thinking about their own families and ttheir own bank accounts!!!!!!

The summer budget is not $500 per summer associate, it's per associate.

After taxes, there is still enough for an eight ball there

20, 21,
Go be your self-loating trial lawyer self somewhere else. You will find no sympathy for your low income on this site.

19 - Wave that dildo a little higher, I can't see it honey.

Hot from the press!!!! Schwartz & Cohen P.C. from Brooklyn just announced a special bonus, a gift basket of meats and cheese worth $250 to first years!!!! GE and Microsoft are knocking on their doors for legal advice!!!

my firm has a $20 per person per day cap on lunch...but my question is....why should i give a shit?

$20 is plenty to eat a healthy meal.

Guys at my high school used to spend less than $20 on lunch all the time, it was no big deal.

19,

Hahaha! That's a nice touch by the firm, doing a press release against the idea of layoffs before doing a big round of layoffs!

I don't really see why you are so outraged by their hypocrisy... that's how BigLaw works, or hadn't you heard?

Hot from the press!!!! Schwartz & Cohen P.C. from Brooklyn just announced a special bonus, a gift basket of meats and cheese worth $250 to first years!!!! GE and Microsoft are knocking on their doors for legal advice!!!

ATL should do some coverage that Davis Polk is laying off more associates:

http://tinyurl.com/bqqrvx

Wow, such small bonuses, perhaps NBC or CNN will do a story profiling those facing this extreme hardship. It is a story that needs to be told. My heart goes out to all those receiving such small spring bonuses.

Today is day 2 of the summer adventure. Desk still clean. Picked up lunch on my own yesterday, but I hope to get invited out this week. Filled out my first time sheet. Good to learn the billing codes for "associate training" and "firm development"!! Will I see my first paycheck on Friday? We will see.....

1L SA

28,

That's how they operate at Thompson Hine. Say one thing, then do whatever is in their own short-term self interest. Sort of like how they irresponsibly grew the firm trying to pretend they were Jones Day and now are dangerously over leveraged.

I guess I'm not so much outraged by the fact that my firm has hypocrites and assholes for partners... plenty of firms can say that... I guess what really ticks me off is that our hypocrites and assholes are so INCOMPETENT at it.

I think I'd be happier if it were a case of "the big lion will take what it wants whenever it wants, including the other guy's steak."

Instead, Thompson Hine is more like "the big retarded lion will jealously guard a glossy picture of a steak."

Texas Firms give all summer associates a $10000 food stipend in order to keep the 3500 sq ft wives fed and not stampeding.

28,

That's how they operate at Thompson Hine. Say one thing, then do whatever is in their own short-term self interest. Sort of like how they irresponsibly grew the firm trying to pretend they were Jones Day and now are dangerously over leveraged.

I guess I'm not so much outraged by the fact that my firm has hypocrites and assholes for partners... plenty of firms can say that... I guess what really ticks me off is that our hypocrites and assholes are so INCOMPETENT at it.

I think I'd be happier if it were a case of "the big lion will take what it wants whenever it wants, including the other guy's steak."

Instead, Thompson Hine is more like "the big retarded lion will jealously guard a glossy picture of a steak."

"People are talking about leaving when the economy picks up."

Can you get more clueless than this? The BigLaw business model is broken, and a few quarters of positive GDP aren't going to put it back together.

The $500 bonus babies should just be thankful they have a job in BigLaw, because a few years from now many of them won't.

Since Elie mentioned STB, I think it is worth mentioning that STB gives 0 Spring Bonus. At least at S&C, they get between $500 and $8500. At STB, everyone gets $0.

"People are talking about leaving when the economy picks up."

Can you get more clueless than this? The BigLaw business model is broken, and a few quarters of positive GDP aren't going to put it back together.

The $500 bonus babies should just be thankful they have a job in BigLaw, because a few years from now many of them won't.

Since Elie mentioned STB, I think it is worth mentioning that STB gives 0 Spring Bonus. At least at S&C, they get between $500 and $8500. At STB, everyone gets $0.

Those getting $500 bonuses (pre tax) may want to explore career options while they still have employment. Seems a not too subtle signal from one bunch of not too subtle bunch of overacheivers to another.

To those who complain about "entitled" associates who want a cut of the profits....

Law firms are professional service businesses. They do not rely on capital or infrastructure for their success. They rely almost entirely on the talent of their associates. Partner profits are derived from the talents and hard work of the lawyers, mostly associates, and little else. Although the market isn't great now, talented associates will soon have many other options. When firms like S&C fail to share the profits with those who actually earn them, the talent will go elsewhere. Without talented associates, the partnership is worthless.

19/33/35,

Your schtick is somewhat improved by use of the example (that is funny that they came out against layoffs right before doing layoffs).

Fail for the duplicate posts. Plus, the lion/steak analogy was lame, lame, lame.

It's an improvement, but keep at it. You're posts are marginally more entertaining than PE, but that ain't saying much.

@20 - The pay for the associates is really insulting when some cocky 35 year old partner takes home millions and millions of dollars, almost all of which is derived from the associate's toil.

The dissension and low morale occur not because 200k isn't enough to live comfortably on or that associates somehow are "entitled" to more. The dissension and low morale occur because the associates earned more, i.e. generated much more than that in fees, and the partnership is diverting that portion of the profits that usually went to the associates who created the profits and pocketing it for themselves.

A $500 bonus sounds much better when you think of it as 100 $5 Subway footlongs.*

* Limited time only, does not include sales tax, void where prohibited.

"People are talking about leaving when the economy picks up."

Man, if I wasn't just completely grateful to have a job and not be on unemployment I would totally be out of here.

S&C associates just dropped a notch in my eyes.

Winston & Strawn layoffs are coming in the next week or so before the big office shuffle in Chicago.

43,

I agree. Good point. Associates don't want more money (generally speaking)... they want a work environment that doesn't destroy their work/life balance.

If partners are unwilling to provide that, and insist on the slave hours, then they should expect to pay out some of the money they earn from those decisions (and should expect high attrition rates)

Thompson Hine guy: all your posts are doing is making us glad we're not stupid enough to have had to accept an offer at Thompson Hine. They're "cancel the callback," even to Ohio people who want to stay in Ohio.

I would let Rodgy Cohen pound me in the ass for free.

E. Wurtzel

S & C = Ponzi Scheme

25 - You are spot on about19. Nobody would touch 19 with that attitude. I bet that dildo has alot of cooter burns!

48,

I am very glad to hear that and to have been of assistance.

If a person has employment opportunities other than Thompson Hine, it is the very height of responsible decision making to give highest consideration to firms that do not have the issues and problems that Thompson Hine has.

STB's summer program is 13 weeks, dunno about S&C.

@ 38 -- You're ridiculous if you think there aren't going to soon be plenty of profitable opportunities for the sort of high-performing attorneys at S&C. Even if biglaw collapses, there will still be places for them to go. Heck, working at McDonald's sounds like a step up from S&C.

Moreover, I'm very skeptical about your assertion that biglaw is broken. Really? What the heck gives you that idea? What's going to replace it, in a world where legal services are still tightly regulated and generally can't legally be outsourced or owned by nonlawyers? Are legal services suddenly going to become unnecessary as we enter this period of new and heightened regulation?

Everyone always thinks they are in the middle of revolutionary changes. Very few of them are right.

51, 25 - same goes for your red, blistered right hand.

54,
I assume you are a bit behind the times. Barack the messiah will be nationalizing legal services. Where have you been?

Katten's lunch limit just got lowered to $25. Talk about nickel & diming.

S&C = TTT

And this time, it's not a joke.

So... if you had to estimate: $500 total (pre-tax) is about how much of a bonus per billable hour?

@14 - agreed. I think everyone looking at PPP also is overlooking cash flow. Just because clients were paying their bills (so the firm could pay salaries) in the past doesn't mean clients are paying their bills now. Add on shrinking credit lines & past PPP is irrelevant to what firms are paying both assoc's & partners now...

@14 - agreed. I think everyone looking at PPP also is overlooking cash flow. Just because clients were paying their bills (so the firm could pay salaries) in the past doesn't mean clients are paying their bills now. Add on shrinking credit lines & past PPP is irrelevant to what firms are paying both assoc's & partners now...

25/51 - God you are so right. I imagine that everybody around 19 has to hear it, all the time. WHAT A TURN-OFF.

2nd place is a set of steak knives. 3rd place is you're fired.

59,
The answer is .001 peso per billable hour

I am actually apalled by this paltry bonus structure. I would have voted no bonus rather than give this insulting sum. Even for peon associates, $500.00 is a slap in the face. Nevertheless, $500.00 could go a long way for half an hour at Rick's Cabaret.

I am actually apalled by this paltry bonus structure. I would have voted no bonus rather than give this insulting sum. Even for peon associates, $500.00 is a slap in the face. Nevertheless, $500.00 could go a long way for half an hour at Rick's Cabaret.

YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS

SKADDEN SECURE

ps Seriously, you are all idiots.

People are "furious"? Shut the f--- up!

57 - Why do they even get a lunch allowance in the first place?

Given the downward trend in the Dow and the continued contraction in the legal services industry, it is surprising that S&C is able to give any bonuses at all.

4 is John Edwards. Shut up, John Edwards.

There is no need to thank me. Being your President for eight glorious years is thanks enough.

Mission accomplished.

72 - I hope your kidneys fail.

In case you haven't noticed. GWB is not the President anymore. Barry and the libs are in charge.

You lose! :)

41,

You're a fool if you think those "talented associates" cannot be replaced be equally, if not more, talented attorneys.

Disgruntled associates are not going to bring down any firm. They just aren't. Learn to cope with your anger instead of making articulate but petulant threats on the internet.

73 - With Barry and the libs in charge, we all lose.

73 - With Barry and the libs in charge, we all lose.

FWIW, as a 1L at a T10 school, I can say that reports of associates being treated like crap are something that we consider when deciding what firms to apply with and which to accept with.

Michele Obama has a humongous penis.

78 - It must be telling from your sore ass

78,

Of course she has huge penis whenever she wants... Barack is her husband. He's probably giving her the giant Patriot Missile every night!

I don't get it. Isn't Michele Obama a woman? 78, you are an idiot. Go back to SMU.

77,
As a 1L I think the more associates flat out fired it would be better for you. The last thing you need is all these deferrals, since in 3 years (Fall 2012) you will be "starting" The less people clogging the pipeline for you the better. By then the economy should be turned a bit and they should need to hire more. If I were you I would be praying for more layoffs.

As for me, I am just hoping this worthless, ugly whore in the office next to me is fired. Man, I think i would take a pay cut just to get rid of her.

@74 -- Many law firms have found it extremely difficult to recruit talented associates when they have a reputation for being an unpleasant place to work. S&C has spent millions of dollars trying to counter the negative reputation it already has, because it understands that talented associates have plenty of options. It's ridiculous to think there is something special about S&C that will allow them to attract talented associates who have the opportunity to work for people who are more respectful, provide better financial compensation, and have a reputation for excellence.

I will form a law firm that builds railroads and bridges so under-billing associates can be industrious in this economy. I am a wealthy partner.

Biglaw Associate=Fungible Timekeeper

Iowa Guy

I will form a law firm that builds railroads and bridges so under-billing associates can be industrious in this economy. I am a wealthy partner.

I will form a law firm that builds railroads and bridges so under-billing associates can be industrious in this economy. I am a wealthy partner.

Could someone clarify whether 22 was correct. Because $500 per summer is MUCH different than $500 per associate which would turn out to be something like $3000-$4000 per summer.

BigLaw doesn't sell quality legal service. What they sell is pedigree and appearance. Quality legal service is incidental (if included at all).

The best way to get a new job? Examine your billables for the past year. For your largest 2-3 clients, figure out how much they spent on your services. Then offer to go in-house with that client and provide those services at a savings compared to what the firm was charging.

You win. Shitty firm loses.

88 here again - I meant $1500-$200 per summer.

Great!
Just enough for half a bottle of Belle Epoque!

-Pop Bottles

"Many law firms have found it extremely difficult to recruit talented associates when they have a reputation for being an unpleasant place to work."

Many firms have found it extremely difficult to recruit talented associates when they have a reputation for being a more unpleasant place to work than anywhere else.

Now, this bonus is much lower than other places right now, so S&C is running a risk of that, but, in general, when it comes to big law at the moment, when every place is doing the same damn thing it doesn't matter.

Even in a good economy a decent amount of top 14 students graduate without getting a big law job. Those people aren't S&C quality, but as far as big law overall--Keep telling yourself there's a big difference between those people and you. Right now, there are even less jobs to pick and chose from, so if firms are going to pay for this, it's going to be a while.

$60 for a summer lunch downtown?? What a joke.

This might be a big mistake by S & C. If associates made financial commitments after S & C promised a spring bonus, then the associates might have a reliance -- ie promissory estoppel -- claim against the firm. I think Restatement 90 speaks to this.

S&C is still a class act. Incoming associates are starting ON TIME and will not have their careers ruined like the rest of us going to V50 firms. Best part is, I had options, but selected a firm based on "fit" and what I believed to be stable practice areas.

Now I have been deferred until January, and don't expect to start....ever.

83 -- stop being stupid, there is no such thing as a talented junior associate at Sullivan...it doesn't take talent to do menial tasks that involve no legal knowledge whatsoever, get a life.

@96 -- Then the S&C partners are even dumber than anyone imagined, because they are taking the most overqualified and hypersuccessful law school graduates and throwing buckets of money at them to get them to do work that you claim any monkey could do.

"People are talking about leaving when the economy picks up"

BWAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAA

The $500 wouldn't be so insulting if I didn't know for a fact that a certain partner in FIG gave his secretary $2500 as a secretaries' day gift.

Hundredth!

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have hever appened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

101 -- bravo. I don't recall ever seeing a more apt description of the cycle of biglaw and the ridiculousness of it all.

I also don't recall ever seeing a more apt description, but I do recall seeing this description 4 or 5 times a week.

S&C is a miserable place to work. But at least it's not Latham.

Oh boo hoo! I love when associates talk about leaving. Fine. pack up and go....where?

104,
They are always welcome at your local Trial Lawyers office. You will recieve a $2,000 draw a month and 1/3 of whatever business you bring in! If you do not cover your "monthly advance draw" you will be responsible for reimbursing the firm for your short-fall. Those Syracuse "Law School" Grads know that business well!

101 for post of the year. I think that description applies beyond S&C to all NY BigLaw offices and countless others around the country. A great description of the golden handcuffs situation many of us find ourselves in. Even as a 3rd year associate, I see it already.

101 - Best post I've ever seen on this board.

Wait, WAIT, allow me to paraphrase every tipster: "We are FURIOUS that we are getting ______!"

Wait, WAIT, allow me to paraphrase how much partners and firm management care about what disgruntled associates anonymously send to ATL: "absolute JACK shit."

101 is a cut and paste of a very old post from autoadmit I think.

Anyway, YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS.

SKADDEN SECURE

This "outcray" is a total bullshit. Young associates are akin to workers in a sweatshop and we all know that and what type of work do they provide in the first yearo. Do you really think that if the sales of a fake prada wallets shop drop, the owner of the sweatshope would keep employees out of loyalty? there are plenty of them around to replace those who left/fired. This is a business like any other business and the fact that associates have a sense of entitlement doesn't mean much in the larger scheme of things. S&C partners can choose to draw less profits but what for? half of the commentators on this board would run amok to S&C if it offered them a job. And yes, $500 might sound insulting but this is an ailment of this generation of young attornies who think that by virtue of getting a job offer at a white-shoe law firm they have become the cream-de-la-cream of the legal profession. Why are they entitled to more? because they billed 80 hours per month in the last 6 months? granted, not their fault but "kill what you eat" is still the moto in wall street. Stop whining or thretening to quit. S&C and its antics are here to stay and I can guarantee that the partners at S&C don't loose alot of sleep over these posts.

.

101 was posted three years ago on xoxohth. It's a timeless screed.

@ 110 - Stop railing against this sense of entitlement that young attorneys supposedly have. I don't think they do have this character flaw you are trying to foist upon them, but even if they did, it is the law firms and their partners that have foisted it upon them. It is the law firms who showered and continue to shower law students and associates with outrageous recruiting effort and extravagant pay and benefits. It is the law firms, and their wealthy partners, who offered wise counsel, advising and promising students and young attorneys that they are the creme de la creme of the profession and that they will have be so treated and respected at their firm, where they will take important and indispensable roles on the most exciting and cutting-edge legal work available.

When young associates are outraged, it isn't because they aren't getting what they feel they are "entitled." It is because they have been conned and taken advantage of by hucksters and thieves who play them for fools--partners who promise to make them part of the family in good times and bad with a fair shot at making partners and a reasonable share of the profits created by the associate's long hours doing miserable work.

Of course, these naive associates lived up to their end of the bargain. They sacrificed lives, families, alternative careers. They stuck with the law firms when everyone else was leaving for high rolling or less soul-crushing careers elsewhere. They suffered, for the sake of the firm--because they were told it was a family, that they had a place there, that they were important, and that their efforts would earn them their fair share of the profits.

Of course, the whole deal is a lie. It was a lie on the part of the firms and the partners and their well-oiled recruiting machines. Yes, maybe associates should have been more skeptical. Maybe young law students should have expected the elder statesmen of their profession to be nothing more than cutthroat human traffickers who will turn on you and everyone of their promises just to make a dime. But they didn't. They trusted their pretended friends, and now they are angry not because they haven't gotten what they are "entitled" but because they have been lied, abused, stabbed in the back, and treated like little more than a condom to be used and discarded.

113 - Amen! Very well put

Look and see where your bonus went! The retired partners now have brand spankig new offices! And unlike the reno that displaced you for about a year, this speedy reno took only about 8 weeks. Now thats cookin'

Did S&C really renovate retired partner offices recently? BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ECONOMY?!?!

113, to bad so sad

113 highights the other problem with many associates -- you think you are worth so much but your own behavior shows a complete lack of the careful and thoughtful judgement that makes for a great attorney. If you were so fantastic, you couldn't have been lied to because you would have seen right through it. Make up your mind: either you need to be cared for like family or you are independent and talented and can cut it in hard times too.

Yes they did renovate! Go down to the 24th floor. Dont worry about being spotted by a retired partner, as they're never around. Your pansy-ass economic downturn wont stop them from getting new offices. They have the financial cusion called "your bonus". And they deserve it! After all, these are retired captains of law and business! HarHar!

These bonuses aren't the issue (the fact that they're small isn't surprising given the fact that they more than halved our bonuses in a year where the partners made around $3 million a piece, just slightly down from their best year on record).

The real issue at S&C is the stealth layoffs that have been going on for the past few months and are ongoing. Morale is at the lowest level I've ever seen it. On any given day, any attorney could be called into a meeting and given two months to find a new job in the worst economic conditions since the Depression. This is one of the worst "severance packages" in Biglaw and is an embarrassment for such a "prestigious" firm. There doesn't seem to be an end in sight either. The Firm fired people at least as recently as two or three weeks ago. Can we ever feel secure again, guys? How do you like that for a work environment?

I don't see how you partners have the gall to look at us in the halls with a straight face. We may smile, but we know that didn't stand up against this needless destruction of people's careers and lives. We know that you are all complicit.

Rodge: you should be ashamed that this is happening on your watch.

120 is right on.

I'm not really sure why a big contingent of people here are such boot lickers. Yes, the blame is always on the victim. Laid off? Lied to and called it performance based? Partners making sexual-orientation based insults to gay associates? Yeah, it's all the associates' faults for being so entitled. That big fat paycheck means they're entitled to harass you or lie to you about your career prospects.

For some reason, there's just a big contingent of small-minded people (who seem to congregate disproportionately on this website) who take a perverse joy in the suffering of others, and love to gloat and find reasons to blame the victim. Here's a question for you guys, if S&C is totally justified in screwing over associates as much as they want, and they have all the chips and anyone who wants a fair share is just being spoiled or entitled, why do you suppose they spend millions a year on recruiting, and hired consultants to improve their image? Might as well just spend zilch, and recruit the B students, right?

It's because in the long run the quality of the young people coming in does make a difference. There aren't too many law students in the Cravath, Wachtell, S&C, Davis Polk range each year. If all of those start going to S&C's competitors, then how long do you think S&C will stay at the top while it's competitors are getting the best young talent? S&C over hired in recent years, and is banking on the fact that all of this will have been forgotten by the time the economy improves and they need new blood again.

What the law firms are really afraid of and what people need to do now is to remember who were the good guys and the bad guys when times were tough. That's when the marketing falls away and you can see the truth. In S&C's case, lies about poor performance, insultingly low bonuses, dishonest stealth layoffs tied with a paltry 2 months severance, a stealth layoff effected by non-renewal of a foreign lawyer's visa, abusive and bigoted partners who aren't reigned in, all while the partners had the second best year in history. Just some things to keep in mind and pass on to others when the time comes to be picking law firms.

Ellie is still low on the estimate of laid off attorneys, even after revising it. S&C's dirty trick has been laying people off a few at a time, instead of all in one big group, so that it's hard for ATL to grab onto anything or get a good count of the numbers. It's shameful and it's worked.

Morale has never been worse, it's a terrible policy and the only redeeming fact is that it helps keep their stealth layoffs under the radar. That way they can avoid having to pay associates any more in severance than they absolutely have to and can avoid the recruiting ding. That new pool in the backyard wouldn't build itself if they were forced to give a market severance package.

@ 118 -- 113 here. You seem to have completely missed the point. I never suggested that associates are "worth so much," that are "so fantastic," or that they "are independent and talented and can cut it in hard times." I don't believe that to be the case, and I don't think most associates feel that way either.

My point is simply this. Associates aren't upset because they are "so valuable" and aren't getting what they are "entitled." They are upset because they were lied to, taken advantage of, used and abused, and are now being treated like sick cattle. Even the crappiest lawyers deserve to be treated honestly and with a little human decency. Maybe the deal that S&C associates were offered and accepted was a good deal for them, and now that the partners are starting to wonder if the deal the associates are getting is "too good" they are trying to renege on their side of the bargain. But it's not really fair to change the terms of the deal afterwards. The associates still sacrificed much of their lives, better career options, families, vacations, weekends, etc. They still toil doing miserable work for unpleasant people, and still succeed in putting millions of dollars every year into the pockets of the partners. They lived up to their end of the bargain, and so it seems fair that the partnership should live up to its end even of the deal even if it thinks it thinks in hindsight that it should've been more miserly in its bargaining.

So, to put it in simple language for those partners out there who don't seem to get it. Associates don't think they are the end all be all o fthe firm. And all associates feel "entitled" to for the firm to live up to its end of its bargain. The problem is S&C's failure to treat its "family" with the honesty, respect, and decency that all human beings deserve.

All that's happening here is that the smoke is fading and the mirrors and breaking. S&C is just being revealed for what it is...and what it's always been: an unpleasant place to work. S&C is a vicious place, and it always has been. The difference is that now you won't get paid for it.

101, 113, and 121 make this the all-time best comment thread.

The whole biglaw system can be boiled down to one basic idea: it's a con. Associates are of two types: those that have realized it's a con, and those that haven't realized it yet.

" the partners had the second best year in history"

This CANNOT be over-emphasized. Shenker, you fucking weasel, you can stuff your hot air about PPP at the last town hall right up your over tightened sphincter. As always, S&C associates gave up a year of their lives for the firm. As always, we took the laboring oar in baking a huge pie that the partners would get most of. It was a heck of a pie, guys. Better than in 2006, when people started at $35,000 in additional comp for spending days, nights and weekends in the office or away from home.

You slime balls make, on average, almost $3,000,000 each per year. You tout your low, low associate:partner ratio. We spend our twenties and thirties going fat, stooped and weak-eyed to make you money. And you couldn't even compensate us at the same rate Skadden, which has almost DOUBLE YOUR LEVERAGE NUMBER, compensated its associates.

Fuck you. Fuck your clients. Fuck the attention to detail. Fuck putting getting it done ahead of everything else, including sleep, our health, and our families. Fuck the stress and the obsession.

Summers, you arrived at S&C this Monday. Pay close attention, because while none of us (except the ones with new jobs already lined up) will be honest with you about it, this place is not where you want to be. You have the pedigrees to do almost anything in the law. Do NOT, whatever you do, waste more than a summer here. They're all really great people, but they'll treat you like shit while smiling at you.

Does 'Thank You' Help Keep Associates?
By PETER LATTMAN
Wall Street Journal, January 24, 2007

Faced with a surge in turnover of its associates, the prestigious law firm Sullivan & Cromwell LLP has been putting on a charm offensive to hold onto junior lawyers.

The crash course in etiquette went into high gear at a partners meeting last February. To deal with low associate morale and high attrition, a confidential slide presentation reviewed by The Wall Street Journal urged partners to say things like "thank you" and "good work" to associates they supervise.

What else should partners do? "Return associates' phone calls as quickly as you would a partner's or client's," said one bullet. "Be sensitive to not canceling associates' vacations," said another.

The presentation showed that the New York firm, now with about 625 lawyers, lost 31% of its associates in 2004 and 30% in 2005. The average associate attrition rate for law firms of about that size or bigger for 2004 was 21%, up from 16% in 2002, according to a study by the National Association for Law Placement.

Another slide showed that in American Lawyer magazine associate-satisfaction surveys, Sullivan compared unfavorably with peers like Davis Polk & Wardwell, Cleary Gottleib Steen & Hamilton LLP and Debevoise & Plimpton LLP. In 2005, Sullivan ranked 155 out of 160 law firms in a survey of midlevel associates.

Sullivan has pursued other efforts to improve morale, including weekly associates lunches with the firm's chairman, H. Rodgin Cohen; a $1,000 yearly allowance for senior associates to entertain junior associates and greater efforts to give associates feedback on their work. "We are pleased with the positive results to date," says Mr. Cohen.

Another effort to improve morale involved rethinking the performance-review process. One Sullivan lawyer considered borrowing from an approach used by the firm's biggest client, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. Stephanie Wheeler, a Sullivan litigation partner and co-head of a new committee on associate morale, sent a memo in June to her two co-heads, entitled "Sample Goldman Sachs 360 Degree Reviews." Attached were four reviews of Goldman employees, including three of partner managing directors. "360-degree reviews" -- evaluations in which an employee gets feedback from a boss, subordinates and peers -- have become a popular management tool at corporations. Goldman uses the tool and is renowned for its strong corporate culture and espirit de corps -- the very issues Sullivan has been working on.

Ms. Wheeler told her colleagues that the papers might be helpful examples of ways to revamp the firm's review process. She noted in the memo: "I've redacted the names on the reviews for confidentiality, but I'd still urge you to treat these with the utmost discretion."

Ms. Wheeler redacted the full names of the Goldman employees on the front page, but either didn't black out their first names or their positions through the rest of the review. It's unclear whether Ms. Wheeler sought Goldman's permission to circulate the reviews -- neither firm nor Ms. Wheeeler would say. The reviews, seen by the Journal, were obtained by Sullivan in its representation of Goldman in a regulatory investigation. The identities of the people were easy to determine, a fact that individuals close to both Goldman and Sullivan describe as embarrassing.

Low associate morale is standard fare at big law firms, where smart young lawyers, though well-paid, often work long and unpredictable hours for sometimes-demanding bosses. It is a serious business issue: The industry's demand for lawyers from top schools outpaces the supply, especially as lawyers increasingly eye opportunities at private equity firms and hedge funds. This week, Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP raised its associate salaries by $15,000 to a base salary of $160,000 for first-year associates, more for more-senior people. Yesterday, Sullivan announced it would match the Simpson salaries and exceed the figures for senior associates.

Issues of associate morale were noted in a sexual discrimination lawsuit filed against Sullivan last week by a fourth-year associate, Aaron Charney. Mr. Charney, who is gay, accuses the firm's partners of lewd and illegal behavior. Sullivan "categorically denies Mr. Charney's allegations," said Mr. Cohen in an email sent out to all Sullivan employees last week. The firm is conducting an investigation with an outside law firm related to new allegations in Mr. Charney's complaint, according to people familiar with the situation.

The firm says that it has lowered its associate attrition rate to about 22-24%. In addition, Mr. Cohen says, the firm's rate of summer associates' accepting offers to return full time this year was the highest it's ever been. And, Mr. Cohen says, comments about the firm on Vault, a career information Web site have improved.

Don't you S&C people remember your obligations under the confi with the firm that you signed?

Oh yeah, that confidentiality and arbitration agreement that the firm suddenly had everyone sign as a condition of continued employment, when they already knew they were planning on stealth laying off people, and it was a way of getting something for nothing for the firm. Class act all around.

Are they really building a pool in the backyard??

-Excited S&C SA